India-Mongolia: News and Analysis

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53475
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India-Mongolia: News and Analysis

Postby ramana » 19 May 2015 00:17

In US, John Wayne, portrayed Genghis Khan!!!

SwamyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16102
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 09:22

Re: India-Mongolia: News and Analysis

Postby SwamyG » 19 May 2015 01:18

Bade wrote:If we cannot resettle in Kashmir and Arunachal and many other states in India which are sparsely populated what is the point of resettling in Mongolia. :-)

It makes sense ONLY if it can be done. Force is not an option, carrot could be. Short, medium and long term benefits all depend on the population that migrates. A few hundred will result in no long term benefits. Long term benefits requires millions (at least a few millions); and Mongolia cannot support it. However short and medium benefits are Indic support to Indic causes - primarily branding of India, and spreading the risk across different countries and civilizations.
Mongolia has inhospitable terrain, but also a very low population density.

A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11603
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: India-Mongolia: News and Analysis

Postby A_Gupta » 19 May 2015 01:18

KLNMurthy wrote:
It is not a strategic matlabi thing like tallel frandship with Pakistan. We can't conceivably use Mongolia to dominate anyone, they are too small. We can get our Uranium from elsewhere with a lot less trouble. We can live and grow perfectly well without ever taking notice of Mongolia.

But, embracing Mongolia as a friend and cultural brother is a step towards India embracing its own self and identity. Just as , for individuals, embracing a friend leads to a deeper awareness of one's own self.


+100

Much better than my negative "ally against the Cross being planted", etc. Positive beats negative :)

This is a civilizational thing. Like Mongolia, Laos and Cambodia may not have anything much to offer India in terms of trade, defence, uranium, whatever, but they are civilizational, cultural friends. The re-discovery of India proceeds through such relations.

Act East is certainly about defence, trade, technology transfer, investment, etc., etc., but there is also this civilizational aspect there as well.

gandharva
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2304
Joined: 30 Jan 2008 23:22

Re: India-Mongolia: News and Analysis

Postby gandharva » 19 May 2015 01:36

KLNMurthy wrote:
skekatpuray wrote:A great deal of credit goes to Kublai Khan who borrowed Tibetan version of Buddhism and it's this version that's prevalent in Mongolia.

However many average to low history knowledge desis consider Mongols == Mughals => Muslims. Not true. Some of them even say Afghanistan was Hindu however Gengiz Khan converted it to Islam. Totally wrong.

Chengiz Khan was never a Muslim. According to one of his sympathetic biographers he was a gifted and energetic leader who made the choice to modernize and expand Mongol power because the alternative was to get swallowed up by Chinese on the East and Muslims on the West. In the process the Mongols morphed into Chinese and Muslims, but the core is still there.

Kind of Hari Seldonesque if you ask me. Interesting to speculate if india+mongolia is the second foundation.



How Chengiz Khan communicated with Tengiri

Minhajus Siraj, the famous historian who wrote in the middle of the thirteenth century, was in his teens when Chengiz Khan let loose his blood-thirsty hordes on the Muslim world. Later in life, he met persons who had seen from close quarters the performance of the Mongol conqueror. His religious predisposition led Minhaj to believe that “some satans had become his [Chengiz Khan’s] friends.”14 But in spite of this strong prejudice, he has left for posterity a faithful pen-portrait of Chengiz Khan receiving “revelations” from Tengiri. He writes in his TabqAt-i-NAsiri: “After every few days he would have a fit and during his unconsciousness he would say all sorts of things. It was like this. When he had his first fit and the satans, after overpowering his mind, informed him of his forthcoming victory, he put the clothes and the cloak he was then wearing in a sealed bag and carried it about with him. Whenever this fit was about to overpower him, (he would put on these clothes) and talk about every event, victory, campaign, the appearance of his enemies, and the conquest of the territories he wanted. Someone would write down all he said, put (the papers) in a bag and seal them. When Chengiz recovered consciousness, everything was read out to him and he acted accordingly. Generally, in fact always, his designs were successful.”15

Chengiz Khan’s “Fit” compared with Muhammad’s “Wahy”

Chengiz Khan’s “fit” for getting into contact with Tengiri resembles, rather too closely to be missed, the “wahy” in which Allah communicated the Quran to the prophet of Islam. One wonders what it would have read like if Chengiz Khan or his followers had cared to compile in a Book all that Tengiri told him before he breathed his last in 1227 CE at the age of 63. For all we know, it might have been another version of the Quran, at least so far as it concerns aggression against other people’s lands, cutting the heads of those who resist the aggression, plundering their properties, destroying their dwelling places, and selling their women and children into concubinage and slavery.

Another Quran, but…

It is only in one respect that the Quran revealed by Tengiri might have differed from the Quran revealed by Allah. It seems that, quite unlike Allah, Tengiri was not intolerant towards revelations other than his own. Professor Habib writes: “The Musalmans, whom Chengiz Khan murdered in such enormous numbers, were surprised at his belief in his God and at his undoubted tolerance in religious matters. Having no priests of their own, the leaders of steppe society were remarkably tolerant to the priests of all other cults - Muslim, Christian, Taoist, Buddhist… they were expected to pray in their own way… Lastly, the Mongols had no objection to intermarriage, and even Chengiz Khan gave one of his daughters in marriage to a Muslim chief, Arsalan Khan of Kayaliq.”16 Again: “In the precincts of Samarqand he [Chengiz Khan] is said to have had discussions with two Muslim scholars and expressed his agreement with the Islamic belief in Allah and all its four rites except the Haj. ‘God is everywhere, and you can find him everywhere’.”17

This was definitely an improvement on the decrees of Allah who has commanded his faithful to go out first for the priests and religious places of other people; who has forbidden on pain of death the marriage of a Muslim to a non-Muslim unless the latter is first converted to the “only true faith”, and who has stated in so many words his marked partiality for the mosque at Mecca (Ka‘ba).

On the other hands, Tengiri was as particular as Allah that the mutual relations among the Mongols should be guided by a stem code of conduct. Minhajus Siraj records: “The justice of Chengiz Khan was so severe that no one except the owner had the courage to pick up a whip that had fallen by the road-side. Lying and theft were things quite unknown in his army and no one could find any trace of them.”18 We are reminded of the strict rules which Allah has laid down in the Quran regarding the conduct of one Muslim towards another.
http://voiceofdharma.org/books/tcqp/chi10.htm

SwamyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16102
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 09:22

Re: India-Mongolia: News and Analysis

Postby SwamyG » 19 May 2015 02:10

In general some Indics tend to think that if persecution was against Xtians and Muslims, then it is all well and good or even likely to dismiss the atrocities. The savagery seen in other civilizations and land are seldom seen in the Indian civilization. It is not that there was no war, bloodshed, looting and raping - but the intensity and brutality of these barbarians sets them apart. The backdrop or motivation does not matter.

RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: India-Mongolia: News and Analysis

Postby RamaY » 19 May 2015 02:19

SwamyG wrote:In general some Indics tend to think that if persecution was against Xtians and Muslims, then it is all well and good or even likely to dismiss the atrocities. The savagery seen in other civilizations and land are seldom seen in the Indian civilization. It is not that there was no war, bloodshed, looting and raping - but the intensity and brutality of these barbarians sets them apart. The backdrop or motivation does not matter.


Sir, there is a logical fallacy in your statement/argument.

member_19686
BRFite
Posts: 1330
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India-Mongolia: News and Analysis

Postby member_19686 » 19 May 2015 04:57

gandharva wrote:How Chengiz Khan communicated with Tengiri

Minhajus Siraj, the famous historian who wrote in the middle of the thirteenth century, was in his teens when Chengiz Khan let loose his blood-thirsty hordes on the Muslim world. Later in life, he met persons who had seen from close quarters the performance of the Mongol conqueror. His religious predisposition led Minhaj to believe that “some satans had become his [Chengiz Khan’s] friends.”14 But in spite of this strong prejudice, he has left for posterity a faithful pen-portrait of Chengiz Khan receiving “revelations” from Tengiri. He writes in his TabqAt-i-NAsiri: “After every few days he would have a fit and during his unconsciousness he would say all sorts of things. It was like this. When he had his first fit and the satans, after overpowering his mind, informed him of his forthcoming victory, he put the clothes and the cloak he was then wearing in a sealed bag and carried it about with him. Whenever this fit was about to overpower him, (he would put on these clothes) and talk about every event, victory, campaign, the appearance of his enemies, and the conquest of the territories he wanted. Someone would write down all he said, put (the papers) in a bag and seal them. When Chengiz recovered consciousness, everything was read out to him and he acted accordingly. Generally, in fact always, his designs were successful.”15

Chengiz Khan’s “Fit” compared with Muhammad’s “Wahy”

Chengiz Khan’s “fit” for getting into contact with Tengiri resembles, rather too closely to be missed, the “wahy” in which Allah communicated the Quran to the prophet of Islam. One wonders what it would have read like if Chengiz Khan or his followers had cared to compile in a Book all that Tengiri told him before he breathed his last in 1227 CE at the age of 63. For all we know, it might have been another version of the Quran, at least so far as it concerns aggression against other people’s lands, cutting the heads of those who resist the aggression, plundering their properties, destroying their dwelling places, and selling their women and children into concubinage and slavery.

Another Quran, but…

It is only in one respect that the Quran revealed by Tengiri might have differed from the Quran revealed by Allah. It seems that, quite unlike Allah, Tengiri was not intolerant towards revelations other than his own. Professor Habib writes: “The Musalmans, whom Chengiz Khan murdered in such enormous numbers, were surprised at his belief in his God and at his undoubted tolerance in religious matters. Having no priests of their own, the leaders of steppe society were remarkably tolerant to the priests of all other cults - Muslim, Christian, Taoist, Buddhist… they were expected to pray in their own way… Lastly, the Mongols had no objection to intermarriage, and even Chengiz Khan gave one of his daughters in marriage to a Muslim chief, Arsalan Khan of Kayaliq.”16 Again: “In the precincts of Samarqand he [Chengiz Khan] is said to have had discussions with two Muslim scholars and expressed his agreement with the Islamic belief in Allah and all its four rites except the Haj. ‘God is everywhere, and you can find him everywhere’.”17

This was definitely an improvement on the decrees of Allah who has commanded his faithful to go out first for the priests and religious places of other people; who has forbidden on pain of death the marriage of a Muslim to a non-Muslim unless the latter is first converted to the “only true faith”, and who has stated in so many words his marked partiality for the mosque at Mecca (Ka‘ba).

On the other hands, Tengiri was as particular as Allah that the mutual relations among the Mongols should be guided by a stem code of conduct. Minhajus Siraj records: “The justice of Chengiz Khan was so severe that no one except the owner had the courage to pick up a whip that had fallen by the road-side. Lying and theft were things quite unknown in his army and no one could find any trace of them.”18 We are reminded of the strict rules which Allah has laid down in the Quran regarding the conduct of one Muslim towards another.
http://voiceofdharma.org/books/tcqp/chi10.htm

Goel is clearly mistaken there.

He is quoting Juzjani who wrote from Delhi and had little idea of Mongol religion or practice.

No primary sources report Chingiz having fits or taking on the role of a shaman, in fact the Secret History rather clearly says the shaman role was played by someone else and it has nothing to do with having fits or making prophetic claims.

Mongol religion was also not monotheistic.

member_19686
BRFite
Posts: 1330
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India-Mongolia: News and Analysis

Postby member_19686 » 19 May 2015 05:02

SwamyG wrote:In general some Indics tend to think that if persecution was against Xtians and Muslims, then it is all well and good or even likely to dismiss the atrocities. The savagery seen in other civilizations and land are seldom seen in the Indian civilization. It is not that there was no war, bloodshed, looting and raping - but the intensity and brutality of these barbarians sets them apart. The backdrop or motivation does not matter.

Yes as opposed to the civilized Christians and Muslims of that period?

What's your point?

The only one's who had qualms about killing civilians enmasse in that period were the Hindus.

Muslims, Christians, and Chinese all indulged in it with glee. So the Mongols were no different, get over it.

And no Mongols won't import a few lakh Indians, they would be idiots to do so (especially when their own population is barely 30 lakhs).

May be Indians will import a billion foreigners and make themselves a minority, that's our prerogative/stupidity but not everyone else is so foolish.

Its called Mongolia for a reason and I am sure the Mongols would like to preserve it as a homeland for the Mongol people.

member_19686
BRFite
Posts: 1330
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India-Mongolia: News and Analysis

Postby member_19686 » 19 May 2015 05:08

Rahul M wrote:skekatpuray, its long delayed sequel is in the works.

surasena, wiki says hulegu's dynasty later converted to islam, though he didn't.

The Khanates (excluding the Yuan Khanate which was overthrown by resurgent Han nationalism) were all subverted by Islam but that was later.

It was Ghazan Khan who was the great grandson of Hulagu that became a Muslims due to the increasing ascendancy of the mullah faction within the Ilkhanate. So slowly the dreadful sharia state was reestablished.

But Hulagu himself detested Islam as did Arghun Khan who was even said to have had plans to conquer Mecca and restore heathen worship there.

shravanp
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2372
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India-Mongolia: News and Analysis

Postby shravanp » 19 May 2015 06:41

SwamyG wrote:
skekatpuray wrote:Watched that move long time back, and felt a huge sense of incompleteness. The movie ends with Gengiz Khan uniting all Mongol tribes, where-as it was just the beginning. I understand it was a movie afterall, but it was critically short. However in true sense, Gengiz Khan should trump Alexander for being greatest emperor but that doesn't fit the West's narrative. Gengiz Khan was scronfully looked upon by Xians and Muslims. Muslims abhor Mongols because Abbasid caliphate, Khwarazm empire were destroyed by invading Mongol tribes.

In US, Gengiz Khan is not considered as heinously as he truly should. There are restaurants named after him and all kinds of people visit. If Gengiz Khan was uniting people, so would Hitler have been right? Granted we cannot apply modern standards to the medieval period; yet by Indic standards Gengiz and his descendants wrecked havoc on the areas they marauded. European or Central Asian, some of these people were brutal invaders that pillaged, destroyed and raped as they went. Forget Xtian and Islamic perspective, from an Indic perspective he was brutal.


Yes, on the face value he certainly seemed brutal. However if we pick every single invasion, there were enough terms/conditions and peaceful negotiations offered by Gengiz Khan prior to impending invasion. Take for instance Khwarazm sultanate. Initially Gengiz Khan sent messengers for trade and pact of friendship to Sultan. Sultan refused on grounds that a Muslim cannot make friendship as equals to Non-Muslims and 'beheaded' that messenger. Repeated second time as well. Maybe the biography was sympathetic towards Gengiz Khan, however except for China, Gengiz Khan's invasions and destruction in M.E, East Eu, and Afghanistan were actually a reflection of bombastic egos these regions had towards the non-accepted/untouchable/unknown/Infidels or Kafirs. Mongols were the unknown during that era because if it's geographic isolation. Nobody knew who were these people and where they came from. Maybe not Chinese though.

gandharva
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2304
Joined: 30 Jan 2008 23:22

Re: India-Mongolia: News and Analysis

Postby gandharva » 19 May 2015 06:49

Surasena wrote:Goel is clearly mistaken there.

He is quoting Juzjani who wrote from Delhi and had little idea of Mongol religion or practice.

No primary sources report Chingiz having fits or taking on the role of a shaman, in fact the Secret History rather clearly says the shaman role was played by someone else and it has nothing to do with having fits or making prophetic claims.

Mongol religion was also not monotheistic.


Which reference is that?

member_19686
BRFite
Posts: 1330
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India-Mongolia: News and Analysis

Postby member_19686 » 19 May 2015 21:55

gandharva wrote:Which reference is that?

Goel's Minhas is also known as Juzjani for his full name includes that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minhaj-i-Siraj

His ideas of Mongols were 2nd hand and often based on hearsay.

If you want first hand accounts then the Secret History, and Juvaini are 2 good sources to consult. In the Altaic religion shaman's are something akin to pujari's and Chingiz never donned that role in reliable sources I have read.

The Jew Rashid al-Din's chronicle (although written a while after Chingiz, he had access to official documents that others didn't due to his high posting in the Ilkhanate under Ghazan Khan) is available only in German AFAIK. In this "world history" composed under Mongol patronage, one section is dedicated to India.

KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3879
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: India-Mongolia: News and Analysis

Postby KLNMurthy » 20 May 2015 03:03

Dup deleted
Last edited by KLNMurthy on 20 May 2015 03:09, edited 1 time in total.

KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3879
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: India-Mongolia: News and Analysis

Postby KLNMurthy » 20 May 2015 03:03

SwamyG wrote:In general some Indics tend to think that if persecution was against Xtians and Muslims, then it is all well and good or even likely to dismiss the atrocities. The savagery seen in other civilizations and land are seldom seen in the Indian civilization. It is not that there was no war, bloodshed, looting and raping - but the intensity and brutality of these barbarians sets them apart. The backdrop or motivation does not matter.

I think you are jumping to a conclusion here: evaluating and understanding Chengiz khan as something more than a mindless mass murderer (as per the prevailing trope of western or muslim interpretation) doesn't have to mean we are only celebrating his slaughter of Muslims. In any case, there is nothing to celebrate on that front as Muslims absorbed the Mongols along with the ruthlessness of Chengiz.

As others pointed out, Chengiz didn't really start the aggression, you might say it was failed diplomacy and the underestimating of Chengiz by the muslims that set the slaughter and conquest in motion. Mass slaughter was the norm of the warfare of that time; although probably India, ever since Ashoka's Kalinga war, became an exception. At the time of Chengiz, Muslims had already slaughtered Indians, Iranians and Egyptians. Christians, as crusaders, had already slaughtered Muslims, and each other, and pagans.

Hitler comparison is not apt here. Only after Hitler, Europeans woke up to the idea that mass slaughter is wrong. I don't know how long this enlightenment of theirs will last, but they have brainwashed the world into believing that European values of deprecating mass slaughter are not just contemporary but have been there since eternity.

For proper evaluation of Chengiz we have to remove mass slaughter from the equation and ask what other civilizational values he stood for. Once we find that the answer is relative openness, pluralism and egalitarianism of thought if not of race, we can conclude that he was better than his enemies.

Gus
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8216
Joined: 07 May 2005 02:30

Re: India-Mongolia: News and Analysis

Postby Gus » 20 May 2015 03:39

during chengiz times there were only these types of people - yours, allies, vassals, enemies. enemies were just not people whom you give 'human rights' to. you just kill them and keep killing them until they become vassals so that your next enemy becomes your ally or vassal without thinking about the option of becoming enemy.

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21089
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: India-Mongolia: News and Analysis

Postby Prem » 20 May 2015 04:24

Surasena wrote:
Rahul M wrote:conversion started with chengiz's grandson, hulaku khan IIRC. he conquered persia. interested people can watch the movie mongol, made by a russian director. conn igulden's series on the mongols is quite interesting too.Hulagu detested Islam & was said to have to told the Caliph he hoped to put an end to it before he slew him.You may be thinking of Berke of Jochid Ulus, also a grandson.His conversion helped the Mamluq's check the Ilkhanate (founded by Hulagu) advance.


There is sign for wise men to ponder on pending mission of Hulagu Khan. He left it for the people of the land of Lord Buddha upon whom the providence has ordained this particular Job to re establish humanity by finishing the Malessh Kalesh from Prithvi.

A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11603
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: India-Mongolia: News and Analysis

Postby A_Gupta » 23 May 2015 18:42

http://www.indiatvnews.com/politics/nat ... 29508.html
"PM Modi's Mongolia visit more about leverage over China: Experts"

Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to Mongolia was aimed more at gaining some psychological leverage over China than about building trade and economic ties, according to experts.

India's former ambassador Phunchok Stobdan told IANS that the visit was "more of a strategic step". S. Kalyanaraman, also an expert on the region, said it was about "making our presence felt in the region".
...
...
Stobdan argued: "Mongolia is a listening post for us. It is similar to why China keeps Pakistan close.

"China has not been able to reconcile with the fact that Mongolia is not a part of it. We could not ensure Tibet's independence but we want Mongolia's independence."

He said China's idea was to make Mongolia so dependent on it economically that "its independence becomes irrelevant".

He also points to India's shared history with Mongolia, something which is affirmed by K. Warikoo, a professor at the Centre for Inner Asian Studies at the Jawaharlal Nehru University (JNU) here.

Warikoo told IANS: "We share deep historical-cultural ties and we need to take this to the next level."

He said Modi's announcement "demonstrates the actual implementation of the new government's Act East Policy".

According to him, Mongolia had a rich treasure of ancient Indian classical Sanskrit and Buddhist manuscripts preserved in its libraries and monasteries.

"It is time for India to get these digitalised and make them available to larger scholars in India."

A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11603
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: India-Mongolia: News and Analysis

Postby A_Gupta » 18 Oct 2015 21:23

http://www.businessinsider.in/Revealed- ... 442687.cms
"Revealed: Mongolian Border Defense Force’s Sniper training exercise with Indian Border Security Force"

Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: India-Mongolia: News and Analysis

Postby Agnimitra » 19 Oct 2015 01:59

gandharva wrote:How Chengiz Khan communicated with Tengiri

Minhajus Siraj [...] But in spite of this strong prejudice, he has left for posterity a faithful pen-portrait of Chengiz Khan receiving “revelations” from Tengiri. He writes in his TabqAt-i-NAsiri: “After every few days he would have a fit and during his unconsciousness he would say all sorts of things. It was like this. When he had his first fit and the satans, after overpowering his mind, informed him of his forthcoming victory, he put the clothes and the cloak he was then wearing in a sealed bag and carried it about with him. Whenever this fit was about to overpower him, (he would put on these clothes) and talk about every event, victory, campaign, the appearance of his enemies, and the conquest of the territories he wanted. Someone would write down all he said, put (the papers) in a bag and seal them. When Chengiz recovered consciousness, everything was read out to him and he acted accordingly. Generally, in fact always, his designs were successful.”15

Chengiz Khan’s “Fit” compared with Muhammad’s “Wahy”

Sounds like a cock and bull stencil of Muhammad's own portrait - except with shayateen instead of Allah.
Apart from chronic alcoholism, there were no other types of fitful behavior - or none in any consistent "pattern". A culture of daylong drinking wasn't exactly conducive to this caricature of him expectantly carrying around a sealed bag with a magic cloak and scrolls with his ecstatic 'revelations' faithfully written down - especially when these newly imperial Mongols took a while to even adopt the Uighur script to write their own language that didn't have a script we know of until then. Also, this special cloak is also a Muhammedan theme - e.g., the name "muddaththir" ("muddassir" in India) means "the one who has the cloak"...Muhammad bequeathed his magic cloak to the saint Owais al-Qarani. These Moslem historians and authors have the dirty habit of trying to force-fit everyone else into their own limited tropes - with colours reversed to show the other as shayateen or wali-al-taghoot.

Chengiz had a Mongol shaman he consulted, though he also did have his own dhyaana of Tengri. In later years he became close to a Taoist monk.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 23757
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: India-Mongolia: News and Analysis

Postby SSridhar » 27 Feb 2016 08:22

Modi’s $ 1-billion credit line to Mongolia to start rolling soon - Kallol Bhattacharjee, The Hindu
India and Mongolia are likely to kick off talks in March on the $ 1 billion credit line, which Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced during his visit to the country in May 2015.

“We are expecting a delegation from Mongolia to arrive in India in March, to lay down the priority areas for the mega credit line as declared by Prime Minister Modi,” an official familiar with India’s policy for Mongolia, told The Hindu, elaborating that the delegation-level talks between Mongolia and India were expected to focus on the infrastructure, IT, and educational projects.

The plan for India-Mongolia dialogue is significant as it comes nearly nine months after Mr. Modi visited Mongolia and made the “in principle” credit line announcement.

India has an operational credit line of $20 million for Mongolia and out of that 1.5 million is being utilised for an IT consultancy project. An official of the Exim Bank working on credit lines to Mongolia, said that the bank expected most of the $1 billion credit line to be dedicated to infrastructure projects.

The Hindu has learnt that the credit line is part of a strategy to emerge as the “third pole” in Mongolia’s international relations which so far have been dominated by China and Russia.

chanakyaa
BRFite
Posts: 1277
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 00:09
Location: Hiding in Karakoram

Re: India-Mongolia: News and Analysis

Postby chanakyaa » 06 Mar 2016 07:42

Embassy of Mongolia Confirms Demand From Kiev for Reparations
The press attaché of the Embassy of Russia in Mongolia, Lhagvasuren Namsrai, has confirmed the information about the country's Parliament receiving an official letter from the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine with the requirement to pay compensation for the destruction of Kiev by the troops of Batu Khan.

"The Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine wrote an official letter to the State Great Khural (our Parliament) that said in the thirteenth century Batu Khan (Golden Horde, the grandson of Genghis Khan) organized the genocide of the Ukrainian people. Ukrainians demand the payment of compensation. Both Russian and Mongolian websites have written about it", said Namsrai on the 29th February in an interview with radio station "Vesti FM".

"Then our correspondent asked our Chairman of the State Great Hural: the letter is factual? And our Chairman of the State Great Hural replied that, generally, in the history of the Middle ages it was the Kievan Rus, the Ukrainian State did not exist then. But if the Verkhovna Rada writes all the names of the Ukrainian citizens who died as a result of genocide, and their families, we will be ready to pay", — said the press attaché.

As a reminder, in May of 2015, the TV channels "Ren TV", "Star" and several other news agencies reported that the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine adopted the resolution "On the genocide of the Ukrainian people in the 13th century by the criminal regime of the Mongol Empire" and sent to the Mongolian authorities the requirement to pay compensation for the destruction of Kiev. Meanwhile some agencies reported the announcement as a prank.

The Chairman of the Khural, Zandaahuugiyn Enkhbold, called the resolution of the Ukrainian Parliament "a propaganda cliche of Ukraine concerning Mongolia". "The world did not know and never heard about any Ukrainian nation, especially in the era of the heirs of the Great Temujin, he said. — Millions of dead Ukrainians in the thirteenth century is the fruit of an unhealthy imagination of Ukrainian deputies".

Enkhbold added that "Mongolia is ready to pay damages in the capture of Kiev by Batu Khan, but only to the victims or their families". "We look forward to announcing the full list of victims", — said the Chairman of the Khural.

Awadhi
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 9
Joined: 07 Nov 2016 17:51

Re: India-Mongolia: News and Analysis

Postby Awadhi » 09 Dec 2016 14:05

India responds to Mongolia's SOS on Chinese sanctions

NEW DELHI: Assuring Mongolia that India is sympathetic to the problems being faced by it, Delhi has said it will help the country utilise the $1 billion financial assistance offered in 2015 to tide over the economic sanctions imposed on Ulan Bator by China in retaliation for inviting Dalai Lama.

Answering questions, the MEA spokesperson said: "We are ready to work with Mongolian people in this time of their difficulty. During the visit of the PM to Mongolia in May 2015, he had conveyed to the Mongolian leadership that India will extend support in diverse fields. We had announced a credit line of US$ 1billion. We are closely working with the Mongolian government to implement the credit line in a manner that is deemed beneficial to the friendly people of Mongolia by its leadership".

However, India is careful to steer clear of the Mongolia-China spat, mentioning that Mongolia's crisis owes as much to its debt-servicing problems as to other factors. "We have a long spiritual relationship with India," Gonchig Ganbold, Mongolia's ambassador, told TOI. Its important India raises its voice against China's unilateral measures which are hurting our people, specially when severe winter is upon us." Silence, he said, could be construed as giving China a "pass" for its behaviour.


The envoy held talks with Pradeep Rawat, MEA joint secretary (east Asia). But it is not yet clear what kind of support India can give Mongolia, whose two biggest neighbours are China and Russia. Government sources said India was committed to support Mongolia, without clarifying whether that would entail a public statement sure to anger the Chinese. After the Dalai Lama visited Mongolia for the ninth time in November, which Ulan Bator allowed in the teeth of official Chinese opposition — Mongolia suddenly found all official interactions with Chinese officials cancelled. Trucks crossing into China's autonomous province of Inner Mongolia are now charged 10 yuan each, and 0.1% of the worth of the cargo if it is beyond 10,000 yuan. China's actions hold unhappy portends for China's One-Belt-One-Road policy, if countries on its periphery can be arbitrarily subjected to sanctions. Mongolia has a long history of defying the Chinese system, despite them being so dependent on Beijing for transit. But China is more able to enforce its views on Mongolia now, as a superpower. Russia is unlikely to be of much help because Moscow does not at present feel the need to disagree with Beijing.

A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11603
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: India-Mongolia: News and Analysis

Postby A_Gupta » 02 Jan 2017 08:33

A harsh take on Modi & Mongolia:
India Drives Mongolia Into China’s Submission – Analysis
http://www.eurasiareview.com/30122016-i ... -analysis/

Prime Minister Narendra Modi was the first-ever Indian Prime Minister to visit Mongolia. He may also be the last, as Mongolia now wishes that he had never come.

Thereby hangs a sordid tale of how the cookie crumbled in the steppes; how the itinerant dream merchant fed false hopes to a credulous but friendly and trusting people; and, how Mongolia – when squeezed by China to apologise for the Dalai Lama’s visit and promise to never again invite him – learned the hard way that India would neither come to its aid nor deliver on its promises. Beijing made Ulaanbaatar kowtow, and that was a resounding slap on New Delhi’s face.

Our story begins in May 2015.

Prime Minister Modi travelled to Ulaanbaatar from China, told people in the land of Genghis Khan of Buddhism in India, and of Buddhism, among other civilisational links, being common to India and Mongolia. He also announced a credit line of $1 billion and assured the Mongolian leaders that India would extend support in diverse fields and increase exports to Mongolia. This was the text.

Pictures showed PM Modi patting a Mongol horse and trying his hand at archery – the symbolism of posing with a bow and arrow aimed unmistakably at Beijing. That underscored the subtext.

Modi’s billion-dollar pledge came as a big boost to Mongolia, which is locked between China and Russia, and overwhelmingly dependent on the former. Time was when Mongolia was in a clover, with the Russians and Chinese competing to win them over; and, Mongolia could leverage its ties with one power for bargaining with the other. If Moscow failed to respond to a felt need, Ulaanbaatar could always seek Beijing’s help; and vice versa.

Lately, that has changed. Russia and China have become allies and Russia too is more dependent on China as the greater power especially in the aftermath of the U.S.-led sanctions triggered by the retaking of Crimea.

As a result, Ulaanbaatar can no longer call on the Kremlin to help when Beijing is uncooperative. A poor country, with a GDP of about $ 35 billion, Mongolia now feels “trapped” between Russia and China, particularly with the Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) as the only show in the region.

This brings us to the subtext of Modi’s visit: For New Delhi, it was a successful foray into “China’s backyard”. It was also a message to Beijing that should it seeks to step up its ‘presence’ in Sri Lanka – which is India’s “zone of influence” – then it should be prepared to face India in its own backyard. In fact, the $1 billion pledged by Modi was India’s answer to the few billion dollars China was pouring into Sri Lanka.

The Mongolian leadership saw Prime Minister Modi’s visit as the arrival of a “new power” that would be a counter to China. It was led to believe that it would enjoy India’s support in standing up to China. Indian support, Ulaanbaatar felt, could be critical in the event of Chinese pressure becoming unbearable at a time when Russia can no longer come to its rescue.

The Prime Minister’s visit gave rise to new expectations of economic as well as geopolitical gains. Mongolia naively saw India as a strategic friend that could help Ulaanbaatar stand up to Beijing.

This sense of strength and support, which the Monglians (mistakenly) perceived they were drawing from India, was palpable when I visited Ulaanbaatar in July 2016. To be Indian was special. After all, Mongolia was expecting a billion dollars from India.

“When will this credit line start flowing,” was a question that men, and women, who matter kept popping at me. I had not the heart to disabuse them of their hopes and expectations, when they saw me as the one who had come down from the elephant which is out to slay the dragon.

The crisis erupted in November 2016.

The Dalai Lama, perhaps encouraged by New Delhi, went on a four-day visit to Mongolia. This was his ninth trip to a place where he is revered, and his photo is kept in many monasteries. China resented this provocation, objected to the Dalai’s visit and warned Ulaanbaatar against hosting him. Ulaanbaatar, confident of India’s support, defied Beijing to receive the Dalai Lama.

China struck swiftly with an unprecedented economic blockade. The sanctions paralysed Mongolia’s economy and trade. China slapped a levy on Mongolian goods and trucks entering China. As Russia is too tied to China, Mongolia turned to India, and asked for the promised one billion dollars.

Ambassador Gonchig Ganbold, who met Ministry of External Affairs (MEA) officials, told a leading English daily: “It’s important that India raises its voice against the unilateral measures China is taking against us which is hurting our people especially when severe winter is upon us.” Silence, he said, could be construed as giving China a “pass” for its behaviour.

The MEA spokesman’s response was: As a close friend of Mongolia, which India regards as its ‘third neighbour’ and ‘spiritual neighbour’, we are ready to work with the Mongolian people in this time of their difficulty.

However, Modi Administration was in a funk. There was no trace of the muscle the Prime Minister had displayed to much applause in Ulaanbaatar in May 2015. Any action to ease Mongolia’s difficulties would have meant inviting China’s wrath. Predictably, the political leadership turned a deaf ear to Mongolia’s desperate plea for help.

As a result, on December 21, Ulaanbaatar apologised abjectly to Beijing. Mongolian Foreign Minister Tsend Munkh-Orgil promised that the Dalai Lama would no longer be allowed to enter his country.

Ulaanbaatar fell in line and Beijing resumed the stalled talks for a loan of $4.2 billion. Without China’s financial assistance, the Mongolian economy would collapse.

It is game, set and match to Beijing. This was an entirely avoidable fiasco arising from sheer misjudgement on the part of Mongolia, the Dalai Lama and the Government of India.

A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11603
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: India-Mongolia: News and Analysis

Postby A_Gupta » 02 Jan 2017 08:58

From December 7:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 858590.cms

NEW DELHI: Mongolia wants India to publicly protest China's decision to arbitrarily introduce border tariffs as a way of punishing this land-locked country for inviting the Dalai Lama in November.

"We have a long spiritual relationship with India," said Gonchig Ganbold, Mongolia's ambassador. "It's important that India raises its voice against the unilateral measures China is taking against us which is hurting our people specially when severe winter is upon us." Silence, he said, could be construed as giving China a "pass" for its behaviour.

The envoy held talks with Pradeep Rawat, joint secretary, east Asia in the MEA. But it is not yet clear what kind of support India can give Mongolia, whose two biggest neighbours are China and Russia. Sources in the government said India was committed to support Mongolia, without clarifying whether that would entail a public statement to anger the Chinese. "We consider Mongolia to be a partner in democracy," they said.

After the Dalai Lama visited Mongolia for the ninth time in November - which Mongolia allowed in the teeth of China's official objections - Mongolia suddenly found all official interactions with Chinese officials cancelled.

Trucks crossing into China's autonomous province of Inner Mongolia are now charged 10 yuan each, and 0.1 per cent of the worth of the cargo if it is beyond 10,000 yuan, which includes copper and coking coal among other things. Mongolia is in the grip of severe winter, and the Chinese action is affecting movement of essential commodities, he said.

China's actions hold unhappy portends for China's One-Belt-One-Road (OBOR) policy, if countries on China's periphery can be arbitrarily subjected to economic sanctions if they go against Beijing's diktat.


The emphasized portion is something India can and must use to its advantage.

Ardeshir
BRFite
Posts: 1081
Joined: 15 Jan 2008 03:10
Location: Londonistan/Nukkad

Re: India-Mongolia: News and Analysis

Postby Ardeshir » 02 Jan 2017 10:59

To be taken with a pinch of salt, as the author appears to be a standard Dilli 'Analyst'.
http://www.eurasiareview.com/30122016-i ... -analysis/

India Drives Mongolia Into China’s Submission – Analysis

Ambassador Gonchig Ganbold, who met Ministry of External Affairs (MEA) officials, told a leading English daily: “It’s important that India raises its voice against the unilateral measures China is taking against us which is hurting our people especially when severe winter is upon us.” Silence, he said, could be construed as giving China a “pass” for its behaviour.

The MEA spokesman’s response was: As a close friend of Mongolia, which India regards as its ‘third neighbour’ and ‘spiritual neighbour’, we are ready to work with the Mongolian people in this time of their difficulty.

However, Modi Administration was in a funk. There was no trace of the muscle the Prime Minister had displayed to much applause in Ulaanbaatar in May 2015. Any action to ease Mongolia’s difficulties would have meant inviting China’s wrath. Predictably, the political leadership turned a deaf ear to Mongolia’s desperate plea for help.

As a result, on December 21, Ulaanbaatar apologised abjectly to Beijing. Mongolian Foreign Minister Tsend Munkh-Orgil promised that the Dalai Lama would no longer be allowed to enter his country.

Ulaanbaatar fell in line and Beijing resumed the stalled talks for a loan of $4.2 billion. Without China’s financial assistance, the Mongolian economy would collapse.

It is game, set and match to Beijing. This was an entirely avoidable fiasco arising from sheer misjudgement on the part of Mongolia, the Dalai Lama and the Government of India.


Any thoughts on this?

Avik
BRFite
Posts: 193
Joined: 06 Oct 2009 00:16

Re: India-Mongolia: News and Analysis

Postby Avik » 02 Jan 2017 13:24

^^^^^^^^
the esteemed author of the Mongolia article is one Shastri Ramachandran, who's biography states that he is :

Senior Editor with the China Daily and the Global Times in Beijing

Avik
BRFite
Posts: 193
Joined: 06 Oct 2009 00:16

Re: India-Mongolia: News and Analysis

Postby Avik » 02 Jan 2017 13:27


sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9966
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: India-Mongolia: News and Analysis

Postby sum » 02 Jan 2017 13:51

Thereby hangs a sordid tale of how the cookie crumbled in the steppes; how the itinerant dream merchant fed false hopes to a credulous but friendly and trusting people; and, how Mongolia – when squeezed by China to apologise for the Dalai Lama’s visit and promise to never again invite him – learned the hard way that India would neither come to its aid nor deliver on its promises.

Initially thought it was shri.MKB article going by the sheer venow spewing out of it

sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9966
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: India-Mongolia: News and Analysis

Postby sum » 15 Mar 2017 10:23

X-post:
sum wrote:Was this ever posted earlier?
Lesson from Mongolia

Mongolian intelligence has a secret agreement with the Research and Analysis Wing and the National Technical Research Organisation - which is directly under the Prime Minister's Office (PMO) - for forensic analysis of the entire raw cyber data traffic that goes across its border into China. The Mongolia-China crossing is a goldmine for such raw data given the lie of the land for global cyber traffic.

In the long run, this agreement is critical to preventing a possible cyber attack from China against Indian computer networks, especially national security networks including those of India's defence forces. The crucial agreement was finalised after China hacked computers in Manmohan Singh's PMO and other ultra-sensitive Indian establishments.


Return to “Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 118 guests