Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

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Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby A_Gupta » 28 Mar 2015 17:34

Imagine if Hindus burned down a symbolic church, what the uproar would be, how many resolutions from parliaments and congresses would be directed against India.

The front page New York Times story is how a 75-foot pagan temple was built to be burned, to unite the Protestants and Catholics of Ireland.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/28/world ... -fire.html
In Londonderry, a Temple Was Built to Burn

By KATRIN BENNHOLD

Burning a 75-foot-tall pagan temple in a Republican Catholic enclave on the loyalist Protestant side of town to “bring people together” seemed, well, mad.


This morning it seemed to me "Christianity unmasked" - "love Jesus" can't unite the Catholics and Protestants of Ireland, but "burn the pagan temple" can!

And this is the ideology that innumerable groups with limitless funding are seeking to spread through out Asia and Africa, under the cover of "religious freedom" and to the detriment of local cultures everywhere.

Christianity has always played a geopolitical role. In the past few centuries, the missionary led the way and the colonialist followed. Today, for example, in America a lot of the right-wing Christian support for Israel is despite the traditional antipathy the junior Abrahamics have for the senior Abrahamics - it is because the Jews must be back in the Holy Land as a precondition for the end-of-days prophecies of the Bible.

This thread, as long as the moderators allow it to exist, is to discuss the ongoing geopolitical impact of Christianity.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby A_Gupta » 28 Mar 2015 18:07

Here, for example, is the United Church of God's view on Israel and the Middle East:
http://www.ucg.org/booklet/middle-east- ... ddle-east/

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby Pulikeshi » 28 Mar 2015 19:00

Good thread, is it is kept intellectual and avoid normative slippage into ideology.

Christianity is by no means a monolith, and in the EJ world as well there is quite a bit of differences in their world view, geopolitical intent and geopolitical impact. Has there been any studies on this aspect?

Another question is if there is alignment that can be found in areas such as the Middle-East or South-East Asia.
Rather than view EJs as merely an opposite force, I am still unsure if there is alignment to be found...
Perhaps, I remain an insufferable optimist ;-)

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby JE Menon » 28 Mar 2015 19:04

^^Plenty of solid areas for PhD studies in there...

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby shiv » 28 Mar 2015 19:33

A_Gupta wrote:The front page New York Times story is how a 75-foot pagan temple was built to be burned, to unite the Protestants and Catholics of Ireland.


This morning it seemed to me "Christianity unmasked" - "love Jesus" can't unite the Catholics and Protestants of Ireland, but "burn the pagan temple" can!

It is exactly like Islam.

If, and if, Muslims take a hit in Europe - it will be Hindus next. That is the way it will be. And after Hindus are hit - it will be back to internecine warfare. Nothing has changed at ground level. National laws imposed from the top imposed secularism in Westphalian nation states. Islam is killing secularism in Europe and Christianity feels the heat. The only response it knows is to attack the pagan.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby RamaY » 28 Mar 2015 19:42

Pulikeshi wrote:Good thread, is it is kept intellectual and avoid normative slippage into ideology.

Christianity is by no means a monolith, and in the EJ world as well there is quite a bit of differences in their world view, geopolitical intent and geopolitical impact. Has there been any studies on this aspect?

Another question is if there is alignment that can be found in areas such as the Middle-East or South-East Asia.
Rather than view EJs as merely an opposite force, I am still unsure if there is alignment to be found...
Perhaps, I remain an insufferable optimist ;-)


When we discuss geopolitics, we cannot be scared of discussing ideologies. Americanism, Market Capitalism, Communism, Secularism, Globalism etc are all ideologies similar to Christianity & Islam.

The first post is a good indicator of what I am saying.

Pagan means Native in Christian ideology. So unless a pagan-artifact (native socio-cultural-political symbol) is symbolically burned down, a foreign ideology cannot take root or get United. That is the symbolism there.

For India to be able to collaborate with any of these groups/ideologies, they need to be first removed from India. We cannot have sufficient freedom or influence with such groups while them having access to our kitchens and bedrooms.

India need to understand the difference between internal and external propaganda. It doesn't matter how much bad propaganda it gets externally as long as it has firm control over internal dynamics.

It doesn't matter how much influence India has on external propaganda as long as it's house is infiltrated by arsonists.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby A_Gupta » 28 Mar 2015 19:49

In the world's sole superpower, the religious influence is strongest on the Republican Party.
This story in the NYT is about how the Christian right seeks to influence the Republican Party in the 2016 elections.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/16/us/ev ... -2016.html

Excerpts:
For Mr. Lane, a onetime Bible salesman and self-described former “wild man,” connecting the pastors with two likely presidential candidates was more than a good day’s work. It was part of what he sees as his mission, which is to make evangelical Christians a decisive power in the Republican Party.
...
His hope is that the politicized pastors will help mobilize congregations that have been disheartened by the repeated failure of socially conservative candidates, and by a party that has softened its opposition to same-sex marriage.
...
....Mr. Lane’s ambitions are national — he focused on battleground states in 2014 and has built an email list of 100,000 pastors around the country.

His goal now is to get 1,000 pastors to run for public office, and their potential support has drawn a virtual pilgrimage of conservative candidates eager to join the tours Mr. Lane organizes to Israel and to his “Pastors and Pews” events.
....
“If the Lord were to call 1,000 pastors in America — 1,000 — and they ended up with an average of 300 volunteers per campaign in 2016, that would be 300,000 grass-root, precinct-level, evangelical conservatives coming from the bottom up,” he said to the ballroom full of pastors. “It would change America.”

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby A_Gupta » 28 Mar 2015 19:53

The impact on US-Israeli relations (this is from an OpEd, discard the opinions, but take the fact)
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/08/opini ... icals.html

“Christian Zionism as a sentiment is not new,” said Dan Senor, a Republican foreign policy adviser who has traveled to Israel with Mitt Romney, Chris Christie and other Republican candidates. “But as a movement, it has grown exponentially in size and political sophistication over the past 15 years.”


Some evangelical Christians’ interest in Israel reflects an interpretation of the Bible’s prophetic passages that’s known as premillennial dispensationalism. It maintains that the End of Days can play out as God intends only if Jews govern Israel and have reconstructed a temple on the Temple Mount, where there’s now a mosque.

But just a subset of evangelicals subscribe to that. Others are motivated by their belief, rooted in scripture, that God always intended Israel for Jews and that honoring that and keeping Israel safe is a way of honoring God. God’s blessing of America, they feel, cannot be divorced from America’s backing of Israel.

The conservative Christian television preacher Pat Robertson once publicly suggested that Ariel Sharon had suffered a stroke and that Yitzhak Rabin had been assassinated because both of these former Israeli prime ministers had pursued policies of “dividing God’s land.”

“There are evangelical connections to the land,” said Russell Moore, the president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby sanjaykumar » 28 Mar 2015 22:02

Burning a pagan temple?

Pray to your heathen gods those good Christian folk did not burn any pagans this time. Or were the Burning Times an invention and of the devil's henchmen?

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby svenkat » 28 Mar 2015 22:19

A_Gupta wrote:Imagine if Hindus burned down a symbolic church, what the uproar would be, how many resolutions from parliaments and congresses would be directed against India.



This analogy is not appropriate.The pagan religion is long dead.Xtism is alive and kicking.Its a beacon light for the dark heathens.1)X tism encourages literacy among tribes and dalits(as in India).Theo saar had written about the non-converted members of his caste who are still 'animists' in 'southern TN' 2)Xtism supports dignity for the weakest and poorest if they convert particularly if there are non-christians with a modicum of self respect in those areas.

Xtisms USP is literacy and human dignity(by proclaiming yeshu bin pandheras promises of 'love',the 'meek inheriting the world',howmuchever untrue they may be) for weak people if there are some self respecting non christians around.
Howmuchever we hate Xism as an ****,(sensitivity for all feelings of all decent people,prior warnings) these two factors-literacy(and through that empowerment) and dignity cannot be wished away.We have promised this to our weakest.As Nirad Chaudhary noted-"The British Empire has thrown out a challenge to us,which quickened our impulses and to which we are still responding".China too has responded to this challenge in its own way.
Last edited by svenkat on 29 Mar 2015 14:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby RamaY » 28 Mar 2015 23:07

svenkat wrote:This analogy is not appropriate.The pagan religion is long dead.Xtism is alive and kicking.Its a beacon light for the dark heathens.1)X tism encourages literacy among tribes and dalits(as in India).Theo saar had written about the non-converted members of his caste who are still 'animists' in 'southern TN' 2)Xtism supports dignity for the weakest and poorest if they convert particularly if there are non-christians with a modicum of self respect in those areas.

Xtisms USP is literacy and human dignity(by proclaiming yeshu bin pandheras promises of 'love',the 'meek inheriting the world',howmuchever untrue they may be) for weak people if there are some self respecting non christians around.

Howmuchever we hate Xism as an evil cult,these two factors-literacy(and through that empowerment) and dignity cannot be wished away.We have promised this to our weakest.As Nirad Chaudhary noted-"The British Empire has thrown out a challenge to us,which quickened our impulses and to which we are still responding".China too has responded to this challenge in its own way.


Let's assume this is 400% correct.

Then why don't we see HDI development in now near 100% Christian nations in African continent?

Why did it take more than 200 years for American Blacks to get basic rights? Whose Christianity stole the dignity & literacy of American blacks; is it white Christianity or Black christianity?

When we talk about literacy & dignity, how long does it take to Christianity to provide this literacy and dignity to say a billion people; instantaneous or 10/20/30/40/60/100 Years?

Assuming it cost $10B (RS 80,000 crore that church NGOs received in past 10yrs) and 10years to convert say 10million Indians, how much EJ FDI we can be assured of to convert remaining 850m Hindus in India? What about 200M Indian Muslims? Then we will need about $1.3T EJ funds to convert whole India into Christianity. Can Hindus achieve equality & literacy on their own if all of a sudden GoI finds a treasure containing $1.3T? If your answer is Yes, then does India need Christianity to achieve literacy & dignity or if your answer is no, then which Christian organization is willing to find $1.3T to India and in how much time? If that Christian organization needs 200yrs to fund that $1.3T, then can we still say only Christianity provides dignity and literacy for it takes 200yrs to India to achieve this?

Thanks in advance.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby sanjaykumar » 28 Mar 2015 23:17

I think those funds are earmarked to promote literacy and dignity in Japan. India must needs wait.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby A_Gupta » 29 Mar 2015 00:01

Please let it be clear. I, for one, do not hate Christianity as "an evil cult". I object to the use of religion for political and legal power.

Indian society, Hindu society is far from perfect, and all the other systems pose a challenge, whether it be literacy or social mobility, to it. The challenge is fine. What I reject is any argument, explicit or implicit, that Hindus cannot face these challenges remaining Hindus and must convert.

As far as literacy goes, I claim, based on the work of Dharampal, who quotes surveys the British did around 1800, that even then, after a century-plus of disorders, the Indian general school system was more universal than what the English had at home. It is at this time that the destruction of the economy of the Indian villages, and the decline of the Indian school system began, and coincidentally or not, the British Parliament also allowed unfettered access to India by missionaries. If I burn your house down, and then claim some moral superiority by building you a house, you would rightly deride me. I do not accept this "Christianity means literacy" nonsense.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby Tuvaluan » 29 Mar 2015 00:18

If I burn your house down, and then claim some moral superiority by building you a house, you would rightly deride me. I do not accept this "Christianity means literacy" nonsense.


Well put, A_Guptaji. This bogus claim is repeated by Indians too, starting with the Indian evangelical crowd.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby sanjaykumar » 29 Mar 2015 00:26

No Christianity in is not an evil cult.

http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby Vayutuvan » 29 Mar 2015 00:49

I think the real problem is that Christians do agree and say "Yes we have done all that. We confess with deep shame that we have sinned". It not out-of-character as that is what is expected of a good xtian to do - confess publicly that he (it is patriarchal so I would not say he/she here) has sinned and going to reform himself.

Question is whether this xtian guilt can be used to one's advantage. May be the hindu poor are sharper than they look and in fact that is what they are doing. Digest the serpent that wants to digest them.

No, hindu is not under threat. First the opposition has to get their head around who is a hindu, eh?

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby A_Gupta » 29 Mar 2015 01:06

Walker of Bowland (1764-1831)
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Walker,_A ... 28DNB00%29

Excerpt from Walker of Bowland papers in Dharampal's works:
(Annexure C of this PDF : http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgu ... ultree.pdf )

My emphasis added.

The learning of the Malabar is probably more limited than that of the more central people of India; but they are not inattentive to the cultivation of letters. They are particularly anxious and attentive to instruct their children to read and to write. Education with them is an early and an important business in every family. Many of their women are taught to read and write. The Bramans are generally the school masters, but any of the respectable castes may, and often do, practice teaching. The children are instructed without violence, and by a process peculiarly simple. It is the same system which has caused so much heat and controversy, as to the inventors of it, in this country, and the merit of which was due to neither of the claimants.

The system was borrowed from the Bramans and brought from India to Europe. It has been made the foundation of National schools in every enlightened country. Some gratitude is due to a people from whom we have learnt to diffuse among the lower ranks of society instruction by one of the most unerring and economical methods which has ever been invented. The pupils are the monitors of each other, and the characters are traced with a rod, or the finger on the sand. Reading and writing are acquired at the same time, and by the same process. This mode of teaching however is only initial. If the pupil is meant to study the higher branches of learning, he is removed from these primary schools, where the arts of reading, writing and accounts are acquired, and placed under more scientific masters. It is to these elementary schools that the labouring classes in India owe their education. It gives them an access, from the introduction of the system into this part of the world; advantage which the same classes in Europe, only now partially conferred on them a superior share of intelligence and placed them in a situation to perform better all the duties of life.

About 200 years ago, Peter Della Valle published an account of this mode of instruction in Malabar. He wrote from Tkkeri 22nd November 1623.

‘In the meantime,’ he says, ‘while the burthens were getting in order, I entertained myself in the porch of the temple, beholding little boys learning arithmetic after a strange manner, which I will here relate. They were four, and having all taken the same lesson before the master, to get that same by heart, and repeat likewise their former lessons, and not forget them, one of them singing musically with a certain continued tone, (which hath the force of making a deep impression in the memory) recited part of the lesson; as for example, “one by itself makes one”; and whilst he was thus speaking, he writ down the same number, not with any kind of pen, nor in paper, but (not to spend paper in vain) with his finger on the ground, the pavement being for that purpose strewed all over with fine sand; after the first had wrote what he sung, all the rest sung and writ down the same thing together. Then the first boy sung, and writ down another part of the lesson; as, for example, two by itself makes
two, which all the rest repeated in the same manner; and so forward in order. When the pavement was full of figures, they put them out with the hand, and if need were, strewed it with new sand from a little heap which they had before them wherewith to write further. And thus they did as long as exercise continued; in which manner likewise they told one, they learnt to read and write without spoiling paper, pens or ink, which certainly is a pretty way. I asked them, if they happen to forget or be mistaken in any part of the lesson, who corrected and taught them, they being all scholars without the assistance of any master; they answered me, and said true, that it was not possible for all four to forget or mistake in the same part, and that they thus exercised together, to the end, that if one happened to be out, the other might correct him. Indeed a pretty, easy and secure way of learning.’

We are continually reproaching the natives of India with the slow advances they have made in knowledge and their neglect of opportunities to acquire it. There we have an instance of the same neglect in Europeans, who have allowed two centuries to pass after they were acquainted with this invention, before they applied it to any practical use. It was at length introduced into this country without any acknowledgement and it was even claimed as an invention by two individuals who disputed upon the priority of discovery. The Missionaries have now honestly owned that the system upon which these schools are taught was borrowed from India. It has been probably improved by us, but this is the fate of all original conceptions, which commonly make the most rapid advances at second hand.


There are other, more commonly quoted passages from Dharampal. Let there be no doubt that the Indian traditions, prior to destruction by the British, were just as literate, if not more, than Christian Europe.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby akashganga » 29 Mar 2015 01:15

Christians are using christian schools effectively in India to spread their beliefs. There are far more number of christian schools in India than the percentage of christian in Indian population. Most of the students in these schools are hindus. We all try to help our schools where we studies even in our middle and old ages. Most powerful way to spread any religion is by opening faith based schools. I hope BJP sirkar will take note of this and stop issuing license to these proselytising schools.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby csaurabh » 29 Mar 2015 05:50

akashganga wrote:Christians are using christian schools effectively in India to spread their beliefs. There are far more number of christian schools in India than the percentage of christian in Indian population. Most of the students in these schools are hindus. We all try to help our schools where we studies even in our middle and old ages. Most powerful way to spread any religion is by opening faith based schools. I hope BJP sirkar will take note of this and stop issuing license to these proselytising schools.


There are two dimensions to the christian school phenomenon. The ones you see in cities are largely for promoting Macaulayism, rather than conversion. It makes upper/middle class into dhimmi macaulayites by not touching anything 'Hindu' with a barge pole. I have been a victim myself.

Then there are those in villages/rural areas. These are primarily for conversion ( ie convert and we'll teach you to read, write and do basic sums ). They work because the local government has been so disgracefully bad at providing any of them.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby RamaY » 29 Mar 2015 06:23

csaurabh wrote:There are two dimensions to the christian school phenomenon. The ones you see in cities are largely for promoting Macaulayism, rather than conversion. It makes upper/middle class into dhimmi macaulayites by not touching anything 'Hindu' with a barge pole. I have been a victim myself.

Then there are those in villages/rural areas. These are primarily for conversion ( ie convert and we'll teach you to read, write and do basic sums ). They work because the local government has been so disgracefully bad at providing any of them.


As we can see from current crop of intelligentsia and rural converts, the end result is same in both groups; becoming agents or fodder/critical-mass for Breaking India forces.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby SSridhar » 29 Mar 2015 07:21

Did you guys read this article in The Hindu a couple of days back: "Being Christian in India" ?

The above was a sequel to an earlier editorial "Debating Religious Conversion" wherein The Hindu wrote:
And, of course, social service can be performed without resorting to conversion. Christian missionaries have combined propagation of religion with social service but unless cases of force or fraud are proven, there can be no objection to such a combination of religious and social work. True, as Mr. Singh said, it should be possible for members of all religions to prosper in India without promoting conversions. But this is not to say that promotion of religious conversions is in itself wrong. That there is no socio-economic need for religious conversion cannot be used to push through any restrictive anti-conversion laws. Existing laws are more than adequate to prevent forcible or fraudulent conversions.

Curiously, Mr. Singh used the possible changes in demographic profile and character of India that religious conversions would entail as an argument against religious conversion. Any restriction on religious conversion, whether on ground of social tension or changing demographics or national character, will amount to a serious violation of the fundamental right to freedom of religion. What is important is that India survives as a secular nation, and not that it remains a country with an unchanged religious mix.


Comments to both the above are interesting to read as well.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby Arjun » 29 Mar 2015 08:51

Good thread, AGupta !

Any studies on the differences between Christian and Hindu Nadars in TN, SVenkat ji ?

Most folks put the Christian percentage of the Nadar community to range between 10 - 30%. Yet the Christian Nadars don't seem very prominent among the Nadar industrialists (other than AV Thomas, in the plantations business). Most prominent Nadar entrepreneurs seem to be Hindu.

Is it possible that the aspirational and entrepreneurial sections remained Hindu - while their more 'victimhood' oriented brethren converted to Christianity ?

I did come across some research to indicate that in the most backward, rural sections of society - the Christian Nadars used to do somewhat better than the Hindus: Belief Systems and Wealth Outcomes. It is likely that the better-off and forward-looking urban sections of the community were never interested in converting in the first place.
Last edited by Arjun on 29 Mar 2015 14:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby svenkat » 29 Mar 2015 14:34

RamaYji,
I am just transmitting the Xtian view.The Xtians are targetting dalits,tribals and real OBCS.They have zero chance of converting brahmanas,rajputs,vyaapari vaishyas,khatris,kayasths,dominant peasant castes(from jutt sikhs to maravars).I believe a section of brahmanas have supported this conversion for bonafide reasons.Some have supported this for mercantile reasons-the big businesses,media groups etc because it increases their consumer base +empowerment.Think of TOI,IE,Hindu.SSridharji has posted the chindu editorial which says demographic mix is unimportant.The Jewish liberal groups in NE US have a similar view.

Infact mavericks view(who runs a blog where many ex BRFites post) is the view of the Indian liberal establishment ie EJs cannot be prohibited by law and conversion is necessary to escape 'caste oppression'.The Cong supports that view.So the figures you posted are not relevant.We are talking atmost about 20-25% of population.
Last edited by svenkat on 29 Mar 2015 15:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby Arjun » 29 Mar 2015 14:53

^ Good point. I have modified my post, SVenkat ji. You might want to modify the above as well to remove any references.

My question regarding Nadar Christian / Hindu differences still stands though, for anyone in the know. It is part of a larger project I am pursuing.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby svenkat » 29 Mar 2015 15:50

A_Gupta wrote: I object to the use of religion for political and legal power.


Such a view just ignores reality including Indian reality.Political power cannot be divorced from world view/belief(aka religion)

I do not accept this "Christianity means literacy" nonsense.


100% true but christians have created such a narrative and also sepoys reflecting gungadin view.They have a disproportionate presence in this sector creating distorted perspectives.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby vishvak » 29 Mar 2015 23:05

Can murder of Swami LaxmanAnanda to be discussed here? It is difficult to see why would tribals/communists target him, and why on Hindu sacred day of Janamashtami, or for that matter, how come tribals get state of art assault rifles as weapons do not come out of heaven automatically.

About NY Article on burning of Pegein temple, it is barbaric act to begin with. Wonder why the state that allows such insanity among its population does not sully its image one bit among civilized nations.

I think Indians should send a team of 'observers' to record that in detail and conduct/publish psychoanalysis study on what drives people to insult their own ancestors and burn temples where ancestors worshiped. India should also send a team of media experts to inquire why this barbarism is covered in words without dealing with actual issues here.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby KJo » 30 Mar 2015 03:13

:shock:


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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby A_Gupta » 30 Mar 2015 17:27


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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby chetak » 30 Mar 2015 17:46

many church and other FBOs in bengaluru, kerala seem to be cutting back on local employees and have given notices of termination. phoren NGO and fund directors are saying that with so many mercs and BMWs on the roads, Indians should be paying themselves for the church based activities rather than expecting phoren contributions.

looks like the gravy train is slowly grinding to a halt and phoren funding NGOs are trying to harness local horses to the train. Next step is to withdraw the termite queen enforced religious visa. makes India look like a two bit tinpot country. no other country in the region seems to have such a visa.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby A_Gupta » 30 Mar 2015 17:50

US Republican Candidate for President, Ted Cruz
http://www.juancole.com/2015/03/thinks- ... power.html
He thinks that the religious conservatives have given up too much power to non-Christians and he’d like to see that change.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby svenkat » 30 Mar 2015 23:07

http://trackingevangelism.blogspot.in/2014/08/onsite-offshore-model-of-soul.html

Christian missionaries also have a similar onsite-offshore model. The clients are countless Churches, Ministries and evangelist Christian communities in the US, UK, Germany etc., The vendors are evangelical NGOs in India. Every year the foreign clients send about 1.2 billion USD, approximately half of Indian film industry's revenue, to these vendor NGOs, according to Govt. of India. The product of this business is Souls of non-Christians. The 'saved' souls are the profit of the collective efforts of the clients and their offshore vendors/counterparts. The souls of non-Christians have to be saved by converting them to Christianity.

Let us understand this business model of missionaries with a case study.


Harvest India - a case study

Harvest India is a Christian missionary organization run from around Vijayawada, Andhra Pradesh. Harvest in the title refers to harvesting of heathen(non-Christian) souls. This evangelical NGO received Rs. 33.44 crores (approx. 6.7 million USD) between April 2006 and March 2013, according to Govt. of India. See the FCRA filings for 2006-2007, 2007-2008, 2008-2009, 2009-2010, 2010-2011, 2011-2012, 2012-2013. Donations came mainly from USA, UK.


Clients
The clients for this NGO are evangelist Christian communities in the US, UK etc.,. Churches like Cornerstone Church, Chandler, Arizona, USA, Water Church, Bend, Orgeon, USA, St.Mary's, Marylebone, London etc., and missionary organizations like London Prophetic Forum. There are organizations registered with the name 'Harvest India' in US and UK. These organizations serve as a hub to collect money from evangelist communities withing the US and UK and send it to India.They pool money on different occasions and send it to our Indian NGO.


What does the vendor do?
Our vendor NGO is run by one Suresh Kumar. Here is the goal of the NGO in his own words


In the video, Suresh Kumar, the president of the NGO says "Harvest India has the vision to reach the unreached people and its main concern is to spread the good news of Christ". He quotes the usual figure of 500,000 unreached villages usually quoted by missionaries. This number comes from Joshua Project. He further says "Harvest India has been doing crusades and bringing the light of Lord Jesus Christ to the darkness." "This is a huge nation and there are many people now that have never heard the name of Jesus Christ." He requests for funds for conversions. That is his sales pitch.


Let us see another sales pitch video.he usual numbers from Joshua Project. The usual hateful language "330 million false gods being worshiped", "darkness", "full of spirituality, but no salvation", "70000 people die each year without hearing about Christ." Suresh requests for funds and invites the clients to visit India to see how many conversions are going on. The video tells the cost for each crusade and even gives the cost to save a soul. This fundraising page by Harvest India gives the breakup of cost and the cost is between $4 and $10 to save a soul(i. e, convert a person).

The clients often visit India to see the great harvest. These are called mission trips. We will discuss these mission trips in detail in a future post.


Vendor Visits
Suresh visits(mostly with family) all the client places almost every year. He visited the American clients in 2014 too. The soul-vendor explains the current status of the projects and looks for "potential new partners." He explains he runs a nursing college for girls, Bible colleges. Boys "graduate" from these bible "colleges" and plant churches. Girls preach the gospel while serving the patients. This is our vendor's sales pitch. That is what our client wants. In the video, the client says a lot of times "we have to make Jesus famous." Here is Suresh telling about this in one of his US visits:


Showing results


Of course you have to show the results. Otherwise how you would get further funding? Our vendor posts about how many people are getting converted in the crusades. He cites miracles to impress the clients. Here are some samples: 4000 people got converted in a single 2012, 12000 people got converted in a single crusade in 2013. The numbers are just from one crusade. With dwindling number of church-going Christians in Europe and North America, one client from UK does not believe his eyes when he sees so many people getting converted in a remote country. 1.2 billion US dollars would not be pumped into India every year for no reason.


In the video, Suresh claims the oppressive Hindu(NDA) govt built 68000 temples. Where did he get that number? The govt built temples? Suresh also says he is happy because Congress govt(this was in 2004) formed because "Congress loves all religions and especially Christianity." UPA chairperson Sonia is Christian and YS Rajasekhar Reddy(YSR), a Christian, became Chief Minister of Andhra Pradesh(where Harvest India is based) in 2004. (An interesting aside: YSR's son-in-law is also an evangelist.) In fact, YSR used public money to repair churches. In turn, Christian organizations supported YSR in elections.

Also Suresh says "his org is involved with Govt programs." Harvest India got awards from AP govt. Most interesting is the award for 2007. Havest India received the award for helping in Indiramma program. This program was introduced by YSR. As part of this program, "eligible" people receive money from AP govt to build houses. So apart from the foreign funding, Harvest India seems to have got funding from the AP govt. No wonder Suresh felt happy about the Congress govt.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby Karthik S » 31 Mar 2015 00:05

Funny video:


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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby KJo » 31 Mar 2015 00:09

chetak wrote:
looks like the gravy train is slowly grinding to a halt and phoren funding NGOs are trying to harness local horses to the train. Next step is to withdraw the termite queen enforced religious visa. makes India look like a two bit tinpot country. no other country in the region seems to have such a visa.


Chetak, which visa is this? Could you please post some links. Did Sonia institute this?
Here in the US, we have visa for religious priests etc.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby RamaY » 31 Mar 2015 01:20

KJo wrote:
chetak wrote:
looks like the gravy train is slowly grinding to a halt and phoren funding NGOs are trying to harness local horses to the train. Next step is to withdraw the termite queen enforced religious visa. makes India look like a two bit tinpot country. no other country in the region seems to have such a visa.


Chetak, which visa is this? Could you please post some links. Did Sonia institute this?
Here in the US, we have visa for religious priests etc.

http://www.immihelp.com/nri/indiavisa/m ... india.html

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby prahaar » 31 Mar 2015 01:25

Apparently, heavy weights getting their hands dirty. Never thought, I would hear the conversion narrative being played out on NDTV. Bhagwati speaking with Burkha Dutt on the Church attacks narrative.

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/the-bu ... eststories

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby KJo » 31 Mar 2015 01:29

RamaY wrote:
KJo wrote:
Chetak, which visa is this? Could you please post some links. Did Sonia institute this?
Here in the US, we have visa for religious priests etc.

http://www.immihelp.com/nri/indiavisa/m ... india.html


:rotfl:
We have a missionary visa? What kind of effin idiots are we??
"Aa Bail Mujhe Maar".

Since when is this there? Did Sonia introduce this or have we been "welcoming" to these crooks for a long time? Did Staines come on this visa?

Modiji, tear down this visa!

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby RamaY » 31 Mar 2015 01:34

KJo wrote: :rotfl:
We have a missionary visa? What kind of effin idiots are we??
"Aa Bail Mujhe Maar".

Since when is this there? Did Sonia introduce this or have we been "welcoming" to these crooks for a long time? Did Staines come on this visa?

Modiji, tear down this visa!


NitiCentral: December'2012 - Church now has visa power!

Tweet/Retweet it to PMO, Rajnath Singh, Sushma Swaraj etc.,

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby prahaar » 31 Mar 2015 01:37

KJoji, if India removes this visa, then on a reciprocal basis many of our people would also not be able to use this facility abroad on a reciprocal basis.

Also in practice, the real challenge is NOT from those who actually use this visa. Since their activities are easier to monitor (since they come with declared intent). Those who come under the garb of student, researcher, teacher, coach, tourist, etc. are the real culprits who indulge in induced/forced conversion activities. I have had a chance to meet many such individuals in Amrika and also in Europe (the latter variety).

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby RamaY » 31 Mar 2015 01:44

From my blog post

The first dimension of Secularism is religious dimension and it influence on definition and vision of India’s identity. Secularism gives equal say to all three major systems Hinduism, Christianity and Islam in defining and pursuing Indian Interests. This means Indian Christians with their minuscule 3% population and Indian Muslims with their 15% population will get equal vote in defining Indian Interests same as the Hindus that make 80% of the nation. Another aspect of this equation is the disproportional international power links Christianity and Islam bring in to bear upon India. This is where definition of Indian Interests gets hijacked by Christian and Islamic interests leaving 80% of Indians high and dry in protecting their native civilization.

The second dimension is economic & civic infrastructure. Secularism, by definition, gives into the sway of more organized and disruptive faith systems. One type of these forces is what we have seen in Kudankulam protests. This anti-nuclear agitation was aimed at partnerships with Russia (alone), were majorly funded by Western Christian organizations and were conducted by internal Evangelical organizations. Another type of these forces is what India has seen in JK terror attacks and 11/26 Mumbai attacks. In both cases the national economic and civic infrastructure was held hostage by religiously motivated group while secularism failed to resolve these challenges in the national interests.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby KJo » 31 Mar 2015 01:47

prahaar wrote:KJoji, if India removes this visa, then on a reciprocal basis many of our people would also not be able to use this facility abroad on a reciprocal basis.

Also in practice, the real challenge is NOT from those who actually use this visa. Since their activities are easier to monitor (since they come with declared intent). Those who come under the garb of student, researcher, teacher, coach, tourist, etc. are the real culprits who indulge in induced/forced conversion activities. I have had a chance to meet many such individuals in Amrika and also in Europe (the latter variety).


Missionary means Christian. Why don't we change it to Social worker visa and then have strict do's and don'ts to it? The way it is structured, these missionaries can just come in and willy nilly do as they please for any time period. That is just asking for more trouble.

prahaar saar, I am not sure I understand what you mean by reciprocal basis for our people. Do we send Hindu missionaries to convert people now? If so, that is a surprise to me. Maybe in some small insignificant measure, but I don't think it happens in a way that makes a difference.

It's interesting that these guys do Taqqiyya as well. So sinning (lying) is okay to get more cultural slaves.


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