Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

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Philip
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby Philip » 14 Apr 2015 12:21

"Christianity" as is practiced by so-called "Christian" states of the West,is an abomination to the faith and philosophy of universal love to be embraced by mankind espoused by Jesus Christ approx. 2000+ years ago. On the contrary,in true Orwellian-speak,the "Christian" states preach peace but wage war,preach democracy but support dictatorships,preach morals and integrity but steal from the neighbours,preach freedom but enslave poorer weaker nations and their peoples. As many have joked,if Christ were to return today,the so-called "Christians" would crucify him yet again.

Here's just one "Christian" nation and its hypocrisy for you.
http://english.pravda.ru/world/europe/1 ... pocrisy-0/

Britain: A paragon of hypocrisy.
Hypocrisy, Triumphalism and a "Corporate Covenant"

" ... and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." (Isaiah 2:3-4.)

England's Easter was the culmination of recent events which have brought the would-be great and good to their knees - and knee deep in hypocrisy.

Prime Minister David Cameron, after attending an Easter service near his rural Oxfordshire home said it was "shocking" that people abroad were still being "threatened, tortured - even killed" because of their faith.

Britain's crusade

There was no mention of Britain's hand in this result of the ongoing "Crusade" to which Tony Blair committed Britain's forces in 2003 and which generated the horrors. Cameron is on record as calling Blair his mentor - moreover, when Blair was Prime Minister, Cameron aspired to be "heir to Blair."

Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg tweeted of the: "cruel and barbaric killings that took place in Kenya." Indeed, but it was Christian students - nearly one hundred and fifty of them - mercilessly singled out and slaughtered. Was the massacre another misconceived response to the "Crusade" - an expression which reverberated around a horrified Muslim world. The word and our deeds has resulted in violence engulfing the Middle East and North Africa with ever increasing ferocity - and ever spreading twelve decimating years on.

The Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, referred to the Coptic Christians killed in Libya last month - a country subject of another illegal Western overthrow, assassination of the Head of State, resulting in a now ruined, failed nation.

Western duplicity

However those who are dying are of all faiths and none, in numbers unimaginable. Tortured, crucified, beheaded, dismembered, incinerated, bombed. Their homes, countries, histories looted, destroyed, erased in unending pogroms (dictionary definition: "to destroy, wreak havoc, demolish violently") by land, sea and air.

The Archbishop of York, Dr John Sentamu opined that Christians were at greater risk in many parts of the world because: "they follow Jesus Christ." He ignored the reality that until the "Crusade's" unleashing, believers of all religions had, broadly, co-existed in the affected regions for centuries. Being from Uganda he should also also know a fair amount about Western duplicity.

Ignored in all statements were the Muslims, Yazidis, Mandeans, Sabateans, Druze, Zoastrians, Shabaks and others of faith, dead and dying in this very democratic (ie no one excluded) holocaust which has engulfed from Baghdad to Bengazi, Aleppo to Aden, Kabul to Kerbala, Helmand to Homs.

Justin Welby, in his Easter address referred to murdered Christians being: "witness, unwillingly, unjustly, wickedly ... martyrs in both senses of the word."

Criminal policy

The sense of the loss of every single precious human life was starkly missing in the mayhem created by the most criminal of actions - wars against the peace, wars of aggression - unleashing individual tragedies on a cataclysmic scale.

Perhaps the Archbishop's mind was still on a service he had conducted on Friday 13th March - in Western superstition an unlucky day when the 13th day of the month in the Gregorian calendar falls on a Friday, states Wiki, succinctly. He will certainly also have been aware of the Easter connection, a belief springing from the thirteen guests at the Last Supper on the 13th of Nisan, the night before Christ's death on Good Friday.

In London's great St Paul's Cathedral a ceremony of thanks to the 220,000 British troops who had served in Afghanistan was held, a commemoration of the four hundred and fifty three who died and a tribute to an estimated seventy five thousand wounded, disabled, sick or psychologically damaged. (1) The last troops left Afghanistan in October 2014 - almost thirteen years to the day since they first deployed.

To an onlooker, it seemed less tribute and more triumphalism. The royal family attended in force, all the men dressed military uniform, laden with orders, decorations and medals, adorned with golden braid, tassles and chains to dazzle.

The Lord Mayor of London wore a long black velvet frock, a crimson velvet cape, trimmed with another ermine one, silk stockings, patent court shoes with steel buckles and a tricorne hat. Tradition.

Blair, the unwanted guest

No Event would be complete without an unwanted guest and Tony Blair, who as Prime Minister obeyed his Master, George W. Bush's voice and sent troops to die and be maimed in a country posing no threat to anywhere, duly turned up. Having suffered a backlash from relatives of those who have fought in Afghanistan and Iraq, he was faced with them asking why on earth he had been invited.

Bob Wright, whose son Corporal Mark Wright was killed in a minefield in 2006 spoke for many, telling the Daily Express that Blair was: "the last person I would want to see", calling it "cheek" he added: "He took the country to war, cost all those lives and he's got blood on his hands."

Gordon Brown, Blair's Chancellor of the Exchequer, thus wrote the cheques for the carnage for six years was also there. As Prime Minister after Blair's resignation in 2007 he did not change policy. Afghans continued to be murdered in the guise of being "freed" and British coffins and medevacs continued to be flown home.

The service included the Archbishop of Canterbury's public thanks to those who had served. Prime Minister Cameron - with Britain on a permanent state of high alert - said the country was safer because of the efforts of the troops.

Cameron in cloud cuckoo land

Cameron also talked of the scale of achievements in vanquishing Al Qaida. Where has he been? As USA today noted, multiple insurgencies across multiple lands have taken up its cause. It has simply morphed into new movements. (USA Today, 10th September 2010.) And apart from the trumped up 9/11 reason, were we not told that the Taliban the reason for going to Afghanistan?

Perhaps the real reason lay in Afghanistan's untapped Trillion $ bonanza of "mineral wealth and energy resources (including natural gas)" which have been known of since the 1970s. (2) In the light of which one homily at the service was particularly ironic:

Lord we pray with one accord,

For a just and equal sharing

Of the things that earth affords
...
It ends: "All that kills abundant living, Let it from the earth be banned."

A bit late for that, after the firing by the UK of forty six million bullets. Further, in just one instance, according to the Ministry of Defence, at least eighty thousand 105mm shells (costing £100 million) were fired within five seconds of support being called in.

Which brings us to the most bizarre part of the service. A cross made from used shell casings, mounted on a 105mm shell case base, bearing the names of the British dead, was borne through the Cathedral by representatives of the Army, Navy and Air Force and presented at the Altar for the Archbishops's blessing and dedication. Formerly hung in the HQ at Camp Bastion, it is now to hang at the National Memorial Arboretum, in Staffordshire in the north of England.

The cross, made from shells which had ended lives, mired in flesh and blood was dedicated:

To the greater glory of God

And in thanksgiving for lives well lived

And good examples set ...

Tell that to the grieving, bereaved, orphaned, homeless of Afghanistan. Not so much swords to ploughshares, but killer casings for Crusaders. It also has to be wondered whether it is a radioactive cross. The British certainly used depleted uranium in shells the first Gulf war, whether they still are is not certain, but to have abandoned it's use would have been a major change of policy unlikely to be missed.

Onward Christian soldiers

The commemoration ended with a triumphal military parade and fly past, which included a Chinook helicopter and Apache attack helicopter, presumably to remind of the "special relationship" which had brought about the whole bloody mess. At least "Onward Christian soldiers" was not on the hymn sheet.

In an interview with Forces TV, Tony Blair said he had not foreseen just how long the troops would remain in Afghanistan. Clearly history is not his strong subject. In this "graveyard of empires" Britain was roundly defeated in 1812 and 1842. In 1919 in a territorial spat with Russia they decided not to return.

In a blistering assessment Will Hutton views the last twelve years as little better, writing: "The Ministry of Defence and the military establishment are revealed as over-optimistic boneheads. Everything militated against success. The amount of money that was squandered beggars belief ... Too much of what was planned was driven not by military need or political calculation - but by trying to impress the US."

The ceremony's venue was another irony. St Paul's was the greatest of the creations of Sir Christopher Wren (1632-1723) whose passion for Islamic architecture is mirrored in his buildings. It is witnessed in the structure of the domes in the aisles and the vast one atop the Cathedral. Were it gold, one would surely be looking at a mosque.

Archbishop Welby, with Archbishop Sentamu had another military related occasion in the last weeks. They signed a "corporate covenant" with the armed forces in an: "expression of moral obligation that the government and the nation owe the Armed Forces Community."

We have come a long way from "Thou shalt not kill", "love they neighbor" and "do unto others as you would have them do to you." But perhaps as a former oil man, the Archbishop has a different perspective. His son, Peter, incidentally, works for Tony Blair.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby sanjaykumar » 14 Apr 2015 19:48

Phillip, it would be important to know how many thinking Christians in India have the sophistication that is covered in your introductory paragraph above.

The problem with religion of course is man's extreme gullibility and susceptibility to demagoguery. Wherein belief becomes a bedrock of identity over fellow man.

KJo
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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby KJo » 14 Apr 2015 20:18

The problem with both Muslims and Christians is there is some mechanism in the religion (or the way it is practiced), but which adherents can indulge in any kind of unethical and illegal activities as long as they are seen to be furthering the cause of the religion. This is Taqqiyya. Christians evangelists get angry if you tell them that you are happy with your own religion. Muslims actually kill in Islamic majority countries.

If you complain, they :(( and accuse you of hatred and point out that Jesus/Mohammed was so peace loving. What they don't realize is that it does not matter what Jesus said/did. The only thing that matters is what Christians do. And what Muslims do.

My personal view is that Jesus was a good man who preached good, but Mohammed was just a bandit who made stuff up.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby csaurabh » 14 Apr 2015 22:25

KJo wrote:My personal view is that Jesus was a good man who preached good, but Mohammed was just a bandit who made stuff up.


There isn't much evidence that Jesus existed at all.
In any case the problems with Christianity have nothing to do with Jesus. The problems are exclusivism, Niocene creed ( basically, concept of believers and unbelievers, heaven and hell ) and top down laws handed down by the 'fire and brimstone' God of the old testament.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby KJo » 14 Apr 2015 22:28

csaurabh wrote:
KJo wrote:My personal view is that Jesus was a good man who preached good, but Mohammed was just a bandit who made stuff up.


There isn't much evidence that Jesus existed at all.
In any case the problems with Christianity have nothing to do with Jesus. The problems are exclusivism, Niocene creed ( basically, concept of believers and unbelievers, heaven and hell ) and top down laws handed down by the 'fire and brimstone' God of the old testament.


Yes, I meant IF he existed. :)
I agree with you that Christianity has nothing to do with Jesus. It's just a political movement to control the herd. just like islam.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby svenkat » 14 Apr 2015 22:40

I think it is important to make the distinction between Xism,foreign influence,preferential treatment to a community,cultural beliefs of a community and indviduals.

People say it is men like Philip Sir who have made the forum what it is today.We value and cherish all the contributions of christians to medical profession,services etc.I dont think India should be anything but welcoming to all her people as human beings with their fears,hopes,anxieties,joys and sorrows.Also India should always guarantee freedom of faith and protection from discrimination and the right of people to pursue happiness within the framework of law/society.

But we cannot be blind to foreign manipulation or preferential treatment.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby Rahul M » 14 Apr 2015 22:57

the problem is primarily with foreign missionaries and their lackeys. this distinction is vital and hits the heart of the problem, namely use of religion for political means.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby Arjun » 15 Apr 2015 13:44

I used to find Subramanian Swamy's position regarding asking non-Hindus in India to acknowledge their Hindu ancestry a bit extreme - but I am increasingly thinking he may have a point.

"Jewish" is a term that is often used to denote either Jewish religion or Jewish ethnicity. Similarly, "Persian" is an exonym that denoted the ancient pre-Muslim Iranian race...and is the one term that continues to evoke pride and a sense of their glorious past to present-day Iranians & Kurds. On the same lines - there is need for one word to denote all who are descended from the ancient Indian race (all peoples east of the Persians and west of the Mongoloid Chinese).

Given that 'Hindu', like 'Persian', was the popular exonym used to denote this same race, it would not be wrong to popularize "Hindu" as the name for ethnicity in addition to Religion.

Therefore, Punjabis & Sindhis of Pakistan as well as Bengalis of Bangladesh, would do well to start referring themselves as Hindu by ethnicity, if not by religion. The same would apply for the minorities in India that are of Indian heritage.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby Singha » 15 Apr 2015 14:05

imo the loose original christianity that originally existed in north africa, middle east and eastern europe was stolen by rome, merchansized, centralized and corporatized into a central powerful vatican control system which all must obey or risk being cast out. it was done in parallel with the rise in the military and financial power of west europe.

if we go by the islamic model of holy places, the pope and his clergy should be in todays israel not in the vatican. istanbul has way more to do with the early history of christianity also..it was acceptance of the faith by emperor constantine that opened the door for the faith to spread west into europe.

also Jesus being from that region would be what a palestinian is today - brown. he was whitewashed for better acceptability in europe.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby RajeshA » 16 Apr 2015 15:55

One should ask Evangelists why is the identity of the "Disciple whom Jesus loved" a secret, and whether that is the reason so many Priests tend to opt for sexual abuse of young boys?

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby svinayak » 16 Apr 2015 22:13

Arjun wrote:I used to find Subramanian Swamy's position regarding asking non-Hindus in India to acknowledge their Hindu ancestry a bit extreme - but I am increasingly thinking he may have a point.

Social engineering has made many social groups inside India alienated. This is the only way to bring them back to Bharatiya culture

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby A_Gupta » 17 Apr 2015 06:06

svenkat wrote:I think it is important to make the distinction between Xism,foreign influence,preferential treatment to a community,cultural beliefs of a community and indviduals.

People say it is men like Philip Sir who have made the forum what it is today.We value and cherish all the contributions of christians to medical profession,services etc.I dont think India should be anything but welcoming to all her people as human beings with their fears,hopes,anxieties,joys and sorrows.Also India should always guarantee freedom of faith and protection from discrimination and the right of people to pursue happiness within the framework of law/society.

But we cannot be blind to foreign manipulation or preferential treatment.


My grouse is with evangelists, not Christians in general; my grouse is with hierarchies like the Church that want to "plant the Cross in Asia". My grouse is with **anyone** who thinks I'm going to hell if I don't worship their god and adopt their creed. So, e.g., that includes people like ex-US-President G.W. Bush, to name a public person.

I desperately do not want this thread to devolve into a generalized Christian bashing.

PS: If the people who think I'm going to hell if I don't worship their god and adopt their creed could possibly keep their opinion private to their group, I might not have a problem then. I don't have a thin skin and am not so readily offended. The problem is that far too many of those people come uninvited to "spread the Good News", and to me, that is a profound disrespect for who and what I am.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby Vayutuvan » 17 Apr 2015 06:39

Well, I also do not have thin skin. I let them come uninvited and invite them to "spread the good news". I also do that with people who want to spread "swAdhyAya" of sri pAnDuranga aThale swami ji. This has happened several times. I had other things to do but I still entertain these people to the consternation of my SO. Spirituality, no matter the source, is always welcome in a world which gives enormous importance to materialistic pleasures and gets excited about "off shell" and "on shell" calculations, WDMA, and manned space missions.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby KJo » 17 Apr 2015 06:46

When folks come to me to tell me the "good news", I tell them how Lord Krishna is all knowing and forgive their sins and invite them to my temple. :rotfl:
Poor blokes don't know what hit them.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby A_Gupta » 17 Apr 2015 06:59

vayu tuvan wrote:Well, I also do not have thin skin. I let them come uninvited and invite them to "spread the good news". I also do that with people who want to spread "swAdhyAya" of sri pAnDuranga aThale swami ji. This has happened several times. I had other things to do but I still entertain these people to the consternation of my SO. Spirituality, no matter the source, is always welcome in a world which gives enormous importance to materialistic pleasures and gets excited about "off shell" and "on shell" calculations, WDMA, and manned space missions.


Refreshing!

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby svenkat » 17 Apr 2015 07:58

A_Gupta wrote:
svenkat wrote:....


....


My post was aimed at 'me'.

Politics and "Religion" go together.We cannot ignore the 'political ideology' embedded in the DNA of Roman,Anglican churches.Its not only about the crude EJ attempts.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby vishvak » 17 Apr 2015 09:46

svinayak wrote:
Arjun wrote:I used to find Subramanian Swamy's position regarding asking non-Hindus in India to acknowledge their Hindu ancestry a bit extreme - but I am increasingly thinking he may have a point.

Social engineering has made many social groups inside India alienated. This is the only way to bring them back to Bharatiya culture

If you can think of Hindutva itself as "religion" just to understand equal==equal, then one can clear some confusion there. One can not offer any more concession to other "religion"s than others offer to "Hindutva". And we should NEVER offer anything more and better to "religion" ideas i.e. comparing with Hindu-ism, lifestyle, and so on further. At the same time, it is better to clean up Hindutva of any elements that can be abused and taken advantage of, to say flip guilt by doing equal==equal and thereby introducing "fallen angel" kind of concepts in India. For example, one must declare that "Hindutva has no place for Satan, just as Hindutva has no place to flip such ideas to any minorities". That would do a great service to convince fence sitters and also ones gullible to political propaganda.

Obviously, we need to integrate all communities within India with Yoga in schools and so on, and not merely reproduce foreign treatise devoid of kommunal overtones as unifying factor alone.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby Neela » 18 Apr 2015 11:18

Ok so a few more data points.

It seems that there is a deliberate attempt to distance Xtianity from the Holocaust.
Consider this:
Xtianity had deeply influenced ( and continues to even today) the social,cultural and moral fabric of Europe for centuries
Anti-semitism was the norm in Europe up until the Nazis came up with the "Final Solution to the Jewish question" [ Endloesung der JudenFrage ] - here it just peaks massively and the Holocaust happens.


http://www.menorahreview.org/article.aspx?id=1

My book, Holy Hatred (Mellen 2005), argues that during the Holocaust, people — almost all of them born as Christians, baptized and married in a church, coming from a Christian environment, and absorbing a form of Christian culture that condemned Jews — attempted to murder all the Jews of Europe. Most other Christians either actively collaborated in this murderous endeavor or tacitly permitted it to happen. Most Christians — not just in Germany — seemed to agree to various extents with what Hitler called for, not so much because of the pressures of fear and anxiety, although these were often present, but because an anti-Jewish Christian ideology had been conditioning them for millennia. Nearly every Nazi administrative order — from yellow stars to ghettos, from defamations to deportations, from round-ups to slaughters — had a precedent in the Christian West. Millions of Jews were murdered before Adolf Hitler was a twinkle in his mother’s eye. Jews were condemned as devils from the time of the Church Fathers and massacred from the Middle Ages onward. To traditional anti-Semitism the Nazis added a comprehensive organization and the fanatic willingness and technology to follow through to their horrific end the murderous impulses inherent in anti-Semitism.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby Hari Seldon » 20 Apr 2015 04:49

Found on twitter, TIFWIW.

Translation of letter written by Japanese Emperor Ieyasu to the King of Spain in the early 17th century saying we're happy to trade but won't tolerate prosletyzation.

Image

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby Kashi » 20 Apr 2015 05:22

Hari Seldon wrote:Found on twitter, TIFWIW.

Translation of letter written by Japanese Emperor Ieyasu to the King of Spain in the early 17th century saying we're happy to trade but won't tolerate prosletyzation.

Image


Just a minor nitpick. Tokugawa Ieyasu was not the emperor, but a Shogun and the founder of the Tokugawa Shogunate.

In fact before Tokugawa, Toyotomi Hideyoshi was quite emphatic in his opposition to prosletyzers.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby member_22733 » 20 Apr 2015 05:31

I must bow to that person's intellectual clarity for he could clearly see back in the day (with much more limited access to information) what I could not see until a few years back, with ALL the information I had on my fingertips.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby Philip » 20 Apr 2015 12:30

There is one fundamental which every Indian should always be conscious of.Born of the soil of India,one has to be loyal to it until death,no matter what religion or faith you personally practice. In fact Christ summed it up perfectly 2000 yrs ago when the priests tried to trap him showing him a coin with the head of Caesar's and asked him if it was right to pay taxes to Caesar.His answer,"render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's".

No Indian can ignore or disrespect the fact that we are steeped in our DNA an Indian or "Hindu" culture that spans 10,000yrs+. The word Hindu ,in the connotation of the nation,comes as we know from the Indus river and all the people living in the sub-continent. Therefore,in the heart of every Indian there must be a great love for the motherland and its ancient history,culture in toto. A few years ago while in paris I went to the Guimet museum,on Asian art, where an exhibition on Pakistan was taking place.I was intrigued.Even more shocked to find that everything about the exhibition was in fact "Indian",Hindu and Buddhist artefacts,culture,etc.there was not even one item Islamic or Paki as we know of it today! And needless to say,not a single Paki (burka clad or otherwise) visited it during the 2-3 hours that I was at the museum. In fact it was a travesty to have called the exhibition one on "Pakistan",instead it should've been labeled as an ancient India-Pakistan exhibition.

By denying their "Indian-ness" the Pakis are simply denying their DNA,abandoning their civilized instincts and are destroying themselves. perhaps that is what the great spirit has in mind.

Using Christianity to brainwash a people and thus subvert a nation is a grave offence. There should be no let up in out vigilance to see that "biryani and booze" conversions are prevented at all costs.

PS:Tx.SV, for the kind words,but there are a host of v.intelligent and patriotic individuals on BRF and one is always learning new things from them.Too many to mention by name!

Reg. how many Christians understand the hypocrisy of so-called "Christian" nations,I really wonder myself. At home Christian organisations are ever ready to accept cash from foreign "Christian" countries. The money is often well-intended,from generous benefactors,but there are also alleged funds sent with intention. Discerning the two is the responsibility of the "church fathers",the leadership of bishops and priests. The major problem in India is that we Indians do not question our leaders,whether spiiritual or political enough.If the leader is spiritual,then he or she usually is almost untouchable ,is considered a sacred object,and the "flock" or "herd" kowtow and prostrate themselves ,often refusing to believe of the weaknesses of their spiritual leaders.Some of the recognised mainstream Christian entities have been rocked by various scandals,usually corruption,selling off of church lands a common occurrence. To safeguard themselves,the clergy have amended church/diocesan constitutions making it very difficult for the laity,ordinary church members ,to investigate church corruption and punish the guilty.Priests protect priests.

This is why the evangelical movements with "pastors",not scholarly priests but religiously minded men, more akin to good old Wild West fire and brimstone preachers have made huge inroads into the established churches,plucking members from their flock. Sometimes they are like family oufits,like the late popular southern evangelist Dr.Dhinakaran and son. They have no formal organized structure but are based solely upon the popularity of the preacher.These outfits also appear to be the ones receiving the max moolah from US/Western sources,and are often accused of forcible conversions. Catholic outfits in India are completely under control of the Vatican in principle,but as in Latin America,in practice have their own distinct native characteristics and local saints.Not being a Catholic I cannot tell how much influence Opus Dei has made in India,but the Jesuits have a solid presence here through their excellent educational institutions. The Jesuits are different from most Catholic orders in that all their priests must be scholars in various fields,not just preachers and priests alone. The current Pope is the very first Jesuit priest.Through the centuries,the Vatican power brokers have tried their best to prevent a Jesuit from becoming Pope because of the independence and intellectual ability of the Jesuits.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby A_Gupta » 20 Apr 2015 17:20

Also posted in the Islamophobia thread:
http://www.indcatholicnews.com/news.php?viewStory=27239

Father Heru Prakosa SJ (Indonesia) convened the third Jesuit-Among-Muslims (JAM) Conference at Senegal (West Africa) in the Easter Week of 2015. Father Norbert Litiong SJ (West African Province) was the local organiser. This Conference brought 13 Jesuits, missioned among Muslims, from different parts of the world for spiritual, intellectual and pastoral exchanges with one another. They met at the guest house of the Abbaye de Keur Moussa which is ideally situated in a garden, close to the monastery. The monastery and the guest house are surrounded by the majesty of the natural world. The aesthetic beauty of simple houses provided an idyllic place for deeper analysis, reflection and sharing on Jesuit apostolate among Muslims.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby Muns » 20 Apr 2015 21:35

In line with the thread, previously posted Christianity and the death of Rome to try and identify how in the space of 200 years, Christians went from being a minority in the Roman Empire to then taking control, stopping funding to the Roman temples before finally banning the Roman religion of the time. Then protected by the state, they went on a terror rampage to destroy temples of the old world.

Christianity and the death of Rome :
http://sanchitakarma.blogspot.com/2015_ ... chive.html

As a followup to this I tried to relate the above to a Indian context and found many similarities. Specifically what stands out is a victimization complex that has existed for millenia to try and create the image of a suffering people to share a personal connection to Jesus the messiah and his suffering. Not just this, but a slow and steady infiltration of government to try and create favorable laws while demeaning and slandering anyone non Christian. Laws effectively created to fund Churches and Pastors, while draining funds to the temples, both in ancient Rome and in India today.

The Christians who cried wolf :
http://sanchitakarma.blogspot.com/

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby A_Gupta » 21 Apr 2015 18:07

When I first learned of the Jesuits and their intellectual prowess, I thought that Hindus needed a similar organization. But when I learned more, I learned that the Jesuits are there to buttress the hierarchy of the Church, and not in service of Truth (Satya).

Thus, e.g., the Jesuits saw the emerging mathematics of the infinitesimal as a threat to the Church and sought to suppress it.
http://arunsmusings.blogspot.com/2014/0 ... simal.html
Per Amir Alexander's book:

"ON AUGUST 10, 1632, five men in flowing black robes convened in a somber Roman palazzo to pass judgment on a deceptively simple proposition: that a continuous line is composed of distinct and infinitely tiny parts. With the stroke of a pen the Jesuit fathers banned the doctrine of infinitesimals, announcing that it could never be taught or even mentioned. The concept was deemed dangerous and subversive, a threat to the belief that the world was an orderly place, governed by a strict and unchanging set of rules. If infinitesimals were ever accepted, the Jesuits feared, the entire world would be plunged into chaos".


etc.

For all their organizational skills and intellectual power, the Jesuits can be defeated because their goals are mistaken.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby JE Menon » 21 Apr 2015 18:11

Nothing special about the Jesuits boss - a few of our acharyas could eat them for dinner, if they were non-veg. It's mainly reductio ad absurdum and live to fight another day.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby Shankk » 21 Apr 2015 20:16

Does someone have the book that detailed how the Jesuits stayed in South India and pretended to be Brahmins by dressing like them and even following the rituals and sneakily introduced customs and beliefs that poisoned the atmosphere. Their goal was to subvert the society. Thanks.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby prahaar » 21 Apr 2015 20:46

Having studied in a Jesuit school for more than a decade, I can say that most Jesuit priests are very normal, not necessarily very intellectual. The good part about their training, which gives them strength is that they start off as trainees who are to go via various stages. Some of the training stages include surviving in rural/forest areas among small villages and tribals without having ANY money in their pockets. This gives them very thorough understanding of the ground reality and also a means of creating contact with these communities. They are almost like Pracharaks of RSS (or rather RSS adopted this system inspired by the Buddhist/Christian missionaries).

Another variant of Jesuits is the married pastors of other denominations. Although some of them use public funding for buying personal executive jets, many others are quite dedicated to their mission. I have met an old missionary during his journey to India, he had grown up with his parents (who were missionaries) in India. He was grandfather now, and his children also do mission work. There are many such families in Europe, totally dedicated to this path of converting Indians (even though local church attendance is record low).

Overall after meeting such people, I have come to the conclusion that this conflict between these expansion oriented ideas and geographically localized idea, is generational. Modi or 10 Modis cannot put a stop to this.

One reaction to this conversion might be that sometime in future Hindu ideas might take on universal tone, akin to ISKCON.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby svinayak » 21 Apr 2015 21:34

prahaar wrote: I have met an old missionary during his journey to India, he had grown up with his parents (who were missionaries) in India. He was grandfather now, and his children also do mission work. There are many such families in Europe, totally dedicated to this path of converting Indians (even though local church attendance is record low).

Overall after meeting such people, I have come to the conclusion that this conflict between these expansion oriented ideas and geographically localized idea, is generational. Modi or 10 Modis cannot put a stop to this.

Lot of these old time families still hold the colonial and imperialistic view of the east and India. Civilizing the population is still their old creed. The loss of India as a colonial state has taken away the livilhood of many missionaries. But these were revived after 90s with the EJ from US expanding. In 1995 I found EJ secretly working on their plans for India. My friend when he talk to them they hid their work quickly. In many small places they do this work secretly and away from their own population. Indian population must be made aware of these plans and need to do large awareness campaigns.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby Shankk » 21 Apr 2015 22:34

Thanks Prahaar for your anecdote. Jesuits are just one spoke of the wheel. There are many more like them and it is important to keep a close tab on them. Their subversive activities were in the past as mentioned in the book and it helped the Church understand the society and thus helped devise ways to soften the resistance and weaken it from inside thus laying the groundwork for imperial takeover.

Given current geopolitical scenario and the awareness among Indian population has certainly made them change their ways. While we do not deny the fact that their work is helping poor and needy it would be dangerous to ignore their nefarious end goals and relax the watch. They are just lying low only waiting for favorable time to rear their head. Every time we relax our watch (and elect leaders like Congress) they stop doing missionary work and start mission's real work like S. P. Udayakumar opposing power generation plant in Kundankulam.

Other countries who have already given into the Church's designs do not have people to keep watch anymore and thus are incapable of understanding what hit them. Its a perpetual dark cycle for them until they realize. We are not just lucky to have resisted this happening in India so far but it is a result of tremendous sacrifice done by our forefathers and we should not be allowed to squander that away just because some Jesuits or other missionaries are pretending to do work for poor and needy.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby svenkat » 24 Apr 2015 20:45

via@Tracking Evangelism
"India is a dark nation" "Idol Worship is common" "More ppl have tasted Pepsi than they've heard name of Jesus"

Single org. Single year. 17 crs from USA. 53k new converts. 4 lakh baptisms http://fcraonline.nic.in/fc3_verify.asp ... =2013-2014 … http://indiamission.org/wp-content/uploads/Screen-Shot-2014-05-14-at-11.50.56-AM.png … U cannot compete

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby sanjaykumar » 24 Apr 2015 20:55

^^ Hindus need to take every opportunity to emphasise Christian idolatry of the cross and crucifix. As well as the stone statues venerated so deeply.

Power of language sets the terms of the discourse.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby SanjayC » 24 Apr 2015 21:44

Shankk wrote:Does someone have the book that detailed how the Jesuits stayed in South India and pretended to be Brahmins by dressing like them and even following the rituals and sneakily introduced customs and beliefs that poisoned the atmosphere. Their goal was to subvert the society. Thanks.


You can read it online here http://www.lieswithlonglegs.com/ReadOnline.aspx

"Lies with Long Legs" by Dr. Prodosh Aich.

Incidentally, its subtitle "An Expose of the Indologists of the Raj and their Gurus" was suggested by me to Dr. Aich. Have some fond memories of turning this book into an ebook for Dr. Aich and designing its cover, some five years ago.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby RamaY » 25 Apr 2015 00:05

Issue isn't about if a Christinan is moderate or evangelical or crusader. I tolerate & respect all shades of Chrsitans in their home lands. Let Christians enslave other Christians and treat their women as less than men in their societies.

I also don't have any issue with few Indians wanting to be Christians in their house. My problem is that I don't know when a Admiral Sushil Kumar turns into Issac Sushil Kumar and warns the nation about mutiny. That is why Hindu majority needs the assurance that the state always remains Hindu.

So there is no reason for Bharat to encourage this nonsense, same as Vatican doesn't encourage Hindu nonsense. Vatican's bigotry doesn't make Indian Chrstians to hate pope or chrstianity. Similarly they shouldn't have any issue with a Hindu Bharat, even if it is "considered" bigoted by a minuscule minority of Indian Christians.

Problem with Christianity is that Indian Christians are not isolated from Christians else where. They all act as a group crossing national identities and boundaries. This aspect of Christianity makes it a national security issue for India (or any nation). One solution to this is for Indian Christians to permanently cut all theological and organizational links with Christianity outside, they need to find a prophet within Bharat & socially, culturally & civilizationally rooted in Bharat and no where else.

The same applies to Islam and Indian Muslims.

Hindus always tolerated people of other faiths so anyone worried about a Hindu Bharat being inimical to Christians and Muslims is illogical or sepoy!

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby member_24042 » 25 Apr 2015 04:22

svenkat wrote:via@Tracking Evangelism
"India is a dark nation" "Idol Worship is common" "More ppl have tasted Pepsi than they've heard name of Jesus"

Single org. Single year. 17 crs from USA. 53k new converts. 4 lakh baptisms http://fcraonline.nic.in/fc3_verify.asp ... =2013-2014 … http://indiamission.org/wp-content/uploads/Screen-Shot-2014-05-14-at-11.50.56-AM.png … U cannot compete



Actually baptisms are conversions, so one organization in one year has converted 400,000 Hindus. Great. As I suspected, we are on borrowed time.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby Manny » 25 Apr 2015 06:49

This is war.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby Manny » 25 Apr 2015 06:50

Shankk wrote:Does someone have the book that detailed how the Jesuits stayed in South India and pretended to be Brahmins by dressing like them and even following the rituals and sneakily introduced customs and beliefs that poisoned the atmosphere. Their goal was to subvert the society. Thanks.


http://www.desicontrarian.com/?p=95

RELIGIOUS ICONOCLASM!
NOVEMBER 5, 2014 DC 2 COMMENTS EDIT
(iconoclasm (countable and uncountable, pluraliconoclasms

The belief in, participation in, or sanction of destroying religious icons and other symbols or monuments, usually with religious or political motives.)

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby Shankk » 25 Apr 2015 07:46

Thank you, SanjayC. Unfortunately the book is not searchable and has 300+ pages. Will take some time to get what I was looking for. However thanks.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby vishvak » 25 Apr 2015 12:52

TonySoprano wrote:
svenkat wrote:via@Tracking Evangelism
"India is a dark nation" "Idol Worship is common" "More ppl have tasted Pepsi than they've heard name of Jesus"

Single org. Single year. 17 crs from USA. 53k new converts. 4 lakh baptisms http://fcraonline.nic.in/fc3_verify.asp ... =2013-2014 … http://indiamission.org/wp-content/uploads/Screen-Shot-2014-05-14-at-11.50.56-AM.png … U cannot compete



Actually baptisms are conversions, so one organization in one year has converted 400,000 Hindus. Great. As I suspected, we are on borrowed time.

Wonder what stops the state machinery to put hate mongers under lens of law and arrest them. If a Hindu talks in such a way, it would become an 'international' issues. But for these hate mongers, no one seems to be answerable.

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Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Postby Manny » 26 Apr 2015 05:40

Christians are wonderful people!

http://www.desicontrarian.com/?p=822


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