India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

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Viv S
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Viv S » 16 Jan 2016 23:30

KLNMurthy wrote:
Shreeman wrote:^^^"you do exactly as the cops ask you to, they do not have time to find out if you are a threat to them or not."

This is the key.


How is it the burden is all on an abdul like Mr. Patel and not on the cop who is trained and paid to make good decisions?

Do you think an average Indian man, frightened and under pressure, will be able to follow precisely instructions shouted at him by a large white hostile armed official in an incomprehensible accent in a language he barely knows? Have you ever tried to give a simple instruction to someone not in a professional situation and seen how accurately it is followed?

When you grandly reveal "the key" and dust off your hands, you are overlooking the human element on the side of the Indian man. On the other hand, the officer's human element is already built into the system, because his conduct, while unfortunate, is completely lawful in a system that allows him discretion based on his own subjective threat perception.

It was not Mr. Patel's fault here for not following instructions and not his family's fault for not teaching him ahead of time. You are making it look like it is, by announcing your simplistic "key".


I just took a look at the court blog from the first trial, the cop claims that Mr. Patel kept trying to walk away (though I can't see that on the video), later reached into his pockets, and that while taking him down, he did not sweep the leg and both fell.

http://whnt.com/2015/09/02/courtroom-bl ... wn-arrest/

11:01 AM

Prosecution has called its first witness, Officer Charles Spence. He is a former U.S. Army Military Police Squad Leader & has been a Madison Police Officer for 20 years.
He has been a field training officer for 15 years. FTOs are responsible for teaching policies and procedures dictated by MPD.

Parker was serving as an FTO at the time of the incident on February 6th.

11:14 AM
The Jury is now hearing a recording of the dispatcher’s call to police about a man looking into garages on Hardiman place.

Spence: “It was a ‘check subject’ call…. Whenever we receive a ‘check subject’ call we respond to the area to make contact with a subject and question him about his conduct.”

11:18 AM
Spence says he responded to Hardiman place first, where he saw Sureshbhai Patel walking down the sidewalk. Since Mr. Patel did not meet description of a “black male” he continued down the street to 148 Hardiman Place. Spence says he did assume that might be who the caller was referring to.

Spence: “We receive calls on suspicious persons all the time.”
Prosecutor: “Are they mostly false alarms or people committing crimes?”
Spence: “They are usually people just out doing their business.”

11:25 AM
The Jury is now viewing dash cam video of the incident from Officer Parker’s patrol car.

You can view the video here:
http://whnt.com/2015/03/27/madison-poli ... violation/

11:26 AM
The Jury is now viewing dash cam video of the incident from Officer Parker’s patrol car.

You can view the raw video here.

11:28 AM
Video now showing the incident from Officer Spence’s patrol car.

Parker says “relax, relax, relax” before slamming Patel to the ground. “He tried to jerk away from me!..I tried to pat him down but he kept walking away from me. ….I don’t know what his problem is but he won’t listen.”


11:30 AM
You can hear the officers saying: “It’s alright. You can walk. Stand up. Can you stand up? You okay? Try to stand up. Do you understand English? No?”

This continues for a couple of minutes.

11:34 AM
Officers continue to ask Mr. Patel questions in English. Parker says: “You told me ‘no English’, you can understand English.”

Patel won’t get off the ground and Parker, the training officer, and Spence question why he won’t stand up. Continue to ask him to stand up.

Patel was later admitted to the hospital for a spinal injury as a result of the takedown.

11:37 AM
You hear Parker on the video: “He kept jerking away from me. My thought was he had something in his pockets….I asked him his name and he told me, then said ‘No English.’ It might be a language barrier but I don’t think so.”

11:48 AM
Spence says as he pulled up to the scene, Patel had his hands behind his back. He could not see if he was resisting or not, but saw Parker take him down.
“He appeared to hit the ground hard.”

Afterward, Patel’s shoe had come off, he had blood running from his nose, and his legs would not support his weight.

11:50 AM
Prosecutor: “Did you see anything that would have caused you to lay hands on Mr. Patel?”
Spence: “No sir, I didn’t.”


.
.
.

3:18 PM
Sureshbhai Patel has been called to the stand. He is being brought in in a wheelchair.

3:20 PM
Ismail Charania will be interpreting for Patel.

3:23 PM
Mr. Patel is telling the jury where he is from and his age, 57. He lived in India for all his life until he joined his son in America. He says he does not speak or understand English.

3:24 PM
Patel says he was a farmer in India growing grain and barley. He says he has a fifth-grade education.

3:25 PM
Patel says he arrived in the U.S. on Jan. 30th, 2015 to live with his son and help care for his 2-year-old grandson.

3:28 PM
Patel says his wife arrived in the U.S. on June 12, 2015.

When asked if he missed his wife during her absence, Patel said through his interpreter that “He was handling it,” drawing laughs from the people in the courtroom.

3:29 PM
Patel said he went for a walk around the neighborhood every morning, but stayed on the same street as his son’s house and never went farther than 10 or 11 houses away.

3:30 PM
Patel is describing the day leading up to the incident. He’s describing his dress and the weather.

3:31 PM
He says he was walking on the footpath next to the road. He says he did not go to anybody’s house or into anyone’s yard on his walk.

3:31 PM
Patel says he stopped when he heard shouting from behind him. He recognized the uniforms the men wore as police uniforms.

3:32 PM
He says he stopped when they shouted, but he could not understand them. He says he was only able to respond, “No English, no English.”

3:32 PM
Patel says he had no idea why police stopped him. He says “They shouted, so I stopped.”

3:33 PM
He says there were two police, both younger than him, who he described as “skinny.”

3:34 PM
Patel says he attempted to convey to them that he was walking toward his house, number 148. It was at that point that one of the officers put his hands on Patel.

3:35 PM
Patel said when the officer put his hand on him, he did not attempt to jerk or pull away. He says shortly after that, the officer “put him on the grass.”

3:36 PM
He says while one officer had his hand, one officer tried to check his pockets. In his pockets were an handkerchief and some tobacco, he said.

Patel said he stood throughout the encounter with police and never attempted to pull away or jerk away.


3:37 PM
Patel said he remembers being put on the ground and blood coming from his nose. He says officers tried to lift him up, but his hands and legs were numb.

He says he vaguely remembers the ambulance coming and taking him away.

3:38 PM
He says he has a scar on his neck from surgery performed on him as a result from his injuries.

3:38 PM
Patel said he had never had an encounter with American police before this incident and he had never been in trouble with Indian police.

3:39 PM
He says he now does have a problem walking and he is unable to care for his grandson in the same way as before.

3:40 PM
Patel said when he came to America in Jan., his son did the immigration paperwork. He also said his son arranged payment for his medical bills. “I have nothing,” he said.

3:41 PM
Cross examination has started.

Defense attorney Tuten is asking Patel about his past visits to the U.S.

3:42 PM
Patel says both visits were to Huntsville, where his son lived at the time.

3:43 PM
Patel says he visited the hospital in Huntsville twice during his visits. He said in India, he was bitten by a dog. He says the leg where he was bitten hurt him, so he visited the hospital.

He said he has no pre-existing spinal cord condition.

3:44 PM
Patel said he did not understand the word “stop” shouted by police. He said he simply stopped because of the shouting. He said he does not understand English at all.

3:45 PM
Patel says he never reached into his pocket when confronted by Madison officers and never attempted to pull away from police.

3:47 PM
Patel says when police had his hands secured behind his back, he says he never attempted to turn around and face the officers. Similarly, he says he never tried to walk away from the encounter with police.

3:50 PM
He says he does understand that police have a dangerous job and have to use caution when dealing with unknown people.

When asked if he carried his passport with him on the day of the incident, Patel says there was no need for the passport because he was only walking. He says he was only walking on the sidewalk in the morning. He said there is no need for identification “by your body,” referring to law enforcement, presumably.

3:51 PM
When asked about the possibility of getting lost, Patel said he knew the house number. He said he never strayed far from the house, only going 10 or 11 houses away.

3:52 PM
When asked, Patel said he never considered carrying a card with his name and address with him.
.
.
.
9:12 AM
Eric Parker has just taken the stand in his own defense.

9:12 AM
Parker worked as a Madison Police Officer for 2 years with the department before the incident in question.

9:13 AM
Says as a child, becoming a police officer was his ‘lifelong dream.’

9:14 AM
Says that day started like any other. Parker says he was training Officer Slaughter at the time.

9:16 AM
Parker and Slaughter began routine patrols.

9:17 AM
Parker then accompanied Slaughter to an abandoned building on Celtic drive for some ‘building clearing’ training.

9:17 AM
It was after the training they received ‘check suspicious subject’ call.

9:19 AM
Parker says Officer Slaughter was driving the patrol car. Parker read call notes out loud to Slaughter.

9:20 AM
Neighbor Jacob Maples told dispatch a man was walking around Hardiman Place Lane looking to into homes and garages.

9:20 AM
Parker says he surmised the call was in line with similar burglaries that had occurred in that area.

9:21 AM
Parker: “I saw a subject that fit the clothing description.”

9:23 AM
Parker says Patel had one hand in his pocket and continued to walk away as the officers approached.

9:24 AM
“Patel said ‘Indian’ and pointed to his knee.”

9:24 AM
Parker says Patel then walked away. Says by law he is required to comply with officer commands.

9:25 AM
Parker pointed out to Slaughter that Patel was saying, ‘no English.’

9:26 AM
Parker says he did not believe Patel did not speak or understand English.

9:26 AM
Parker says when Patel put his hands in his pockets and began to walk away again, it set off alerts that the subject might be armed.

9:27 AM
Parker says Officer Slaughter should have never allowed Patel to put his hands in his pockets.

9:27 AM
“I took control of the situation” as the lead investigator on the scene.

9:28 AM
Parker says he pulled Patel’s hand from his pockets and then placed them behind his back.

9:28 AM
Parker says he then began to frisk Patel on his left side.

9:29 AM
It concerned Parker that Slaughter was not acting as a backup officer in the situation. Suggests he was in the wrong position.

9:30 AM
Parker says Patel kept pulling his hands away during the frisk. “I told him if he continued to jerk away I would put him on the ground.”

9:31 AM
Parker says Patel jerked away again and he gave him verbal commands to stop for a third time.

9:33 AM
Parker says Patel turned toward him and that’s when Parker put Patel on the ground. Says that tactical disadvantage was ‘the most dangerous position to be in.’

9:34 AM
Parker says he noticed clues of a potential attack with Patel from his training.

9:35 AM
“We just wanted him to stop. We just wanted to be able to investigate the call.”

9:36 AM
“When I went to take him to the ground, I tried to take him off the concrete. Nobody wants to fall on the concrete.” Parker says during the takedown he lost his balance and both he and Patel fell to the ground. Parker says his knee hit the concrete.

9:38 AM
Parker says Officer Slaughter should have assisted with the takedown to keep the maneuver controlled. Parker says instead Slaughter was standing with his hands folded and simply reached out when the 2 other men fell to the ground.

9:39 AM
Eric Parker is now walking the jury through the video evidence step by step.

9:41 AM
Officer Slaughter called out ‘code 1,’ meaning officer is in need of assistance on a scene.

9:43 AM
Parker says he then realized Patel was saying, ‘no English,’ so he reiterated that to Officer Slaughter.

9:45 AM
Parker is dominantly left handed, 5’8″ and about 155 pounds at the time of the incident.

9:46 AM
Parker: “There was no technique to this. It was get him on the ground as quick as possible and as best as you can. No technique.”

9:47 AM
“It was the only option available to me.”

9:49 AM
After the takedown, Parker says he begins trying to handcuff Patel. Officer Slaughter asks Patel to ‘chill out.’

9:51 AM
Parker says Patel was only detained, not arrested. Originally from the call, the officers were to investigate suspicious activity, but after the non-compliance, Parker says he considered making an ‘interference with government operations’ arrest. Parker says he was advised by his supervisor not to do so.

9:53 AM
Parker says he wiped blood and grass off Patel’s nose, removed his handcuffs for comfort, and waited with him until medics arrived.

9:53 AM
Parker says he was unsure of Patel’s mental state.

9:54 AM
Council and judge are in sidebar before prosecutor’s cross examination.
Last edited by Viv S on 17 Jan 2016 00:01, edited 3 times in total.

Amber G.
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Amber G. » 16 Jan 2016 23:31

TSJ and others - One major thing we all did not mention, that in 60's there were no (or very few) women sciences. Many places like Harvard & Princeton did not admit women, and even MIT, Caltech had very few (less than a few percentage) women. The situation has changed /and is changing Now about half the UG students in MIT or Caltech are women
.

The same was the case, for example in IIT's and I was pleasantly surprised to see so many IIT'ans (women) in a recent leadership workshop given in California.

I guess it was much better than say 50's though. In 50's my sister was the first female student to go pass elementary school in our town/village in Rajasthan. (She is retired now after a long career as a surgeon and the same town now has nearly 100% school enrollment)

In US, just to give a perspective, Maria Mayer (who won a nobel prize in physics - as an aside she was the first female star physicist I met in India - I was quite a young student then) was not even given an official research assistant job in a famous US university. She was "allowed" to work in school's lab as her husband was a professor there! (After the noble prize, she did get a job offer from the said university, though !)

I am optimistic. In sixties, what my father made in an year, my daughter-in-law makes in a single hour, and as good as those 60's were, I think best days for US, and India are still ahead.

Viv S
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Viv S » 16 Jan 2016 23:48

KLNMurthy wrote:It was not Mr. Patel's fault here for not following instructions and not his family's fault for not teaching him ahead of time. You are making it look like it is, by announcing your simplistic "key".


Sreeman was responding to Primus' post (not the case in question) which in turn was in response to my query to BRFites about their various experiences with the police.

TSJones
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby TSJones » 17 Jan 2016 00:00

Amber G. wrote:TSJ and others - One major thing we all did not mention, that in 60's there were no (or very few) women sciences. Many places like Harvard & Princeton did not admit women, and even MIT, Caltech had very few (less than a few percentage) women. The situation has changed /and is changing Now about half the UG students in MIT or Caltech are women
.

The same was the case, for example in IIT's and I was pleasantly surprised to see so many IIT'ans (women) in a recent leadership workshop given in California.

I guess it was much better than say 50's though. In 50's my sister was the first female student to go pass elementary school in our town/village in Rajasthan. (She is retired now after a long career as a surgeon and the same town now has nearly 100% school enrollment)

In US, just to give a perspective, Maria Mayer (who won a nobel prize in physics - as an aside she was the first female star physicist I met in India - I was quite a young student then) was not even given an official research assistant job in a famous US university. She was "allowed" to work in school's lab as her husband was a professor there! (After the noble prize, she did get a job offer from the said university, though !)

I am optimistic. In sixties, what my father made in an year, my daughter-in-law makes in a single hour, and as good as those 60's were, I think best days for US, and India are still ahead.


yes, it was kind of dreary back then because the male/female ratio was lopsidedly male. :(

the military draft was forcing a lot of guys to go to college.

plus if you were in a STEM university, it was really dull, man.

In my first two yeas of college I was wondering what was so damn fun about it?

then I went into the Marine Corps and it became abundantly clear to me that I really should have stayed in college. big mistake.... :D

I finished up college after I got out but by then I was married and had a baby boy. But I was able to study a lot harder by then.

...to this day I still have nightmares about taking an exam w/o studying for it.

also have stupid dreams about being back in the Corps, fat and out shape....miserable.....

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby sanjaykumar » 17 Jan 2016 00:11

I am optimistic. In sixties, what my father made in an year, my daughter-in-law makes in a single hour, and as good as those 60's were, I think best days for US, and India are still ahead.

There is so much that is ridiculous in this statement that it is best not to begin.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby UlanBatori » 17 Jan 2016 00:21

sanjaykumar wrote:I am optimistic. In sixties, what my father made in an year, my daughter-in-law makes in a single hour, and as good as those 60's were, I think best days for US, and India are still ahead.

There is so much that is ridiculous in this statement that it is best not to begin.


I now have to do more work in an hour, even a Saturdin afternoon, than what I had to do in a whole year in the 60s. :((
Oh, wait! I didn't have to work at all in the early 60s! Just run around in my knickers playing with my buddies and doing such fun things as stand at the edge of a driveway watching people break stones in the yard way below - until the garage door behind me swung open in the wind and swatted me in the musharraf, sending me flying over said stones, to be neatly caught like a football by one of said laborers b4 my head hit the stones. 8)

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby KLNMurthy » 17 Jan 2016 00:50

Viv S wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote:It was not Mr. Patel's fault here for not following instructions and not his family's fault for not teaching him ahead of time. You are making it look like it is, by announcing your simplistic "key".


Sreeman was responding to Primus' post (not the case in question) which in turn was in response to my query to BRFites about their various experiences with the police.

Ok thanks for clarifying the context. Shreeman, sorry if I got the context wrong and directed my criticism at you.

Hope my point about understanding the dynamics between abdul and white officer can still be taken.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Amber G. » 17 Jan 2016 00:50

sanjaykumar wrote:
There is so much that is ridiculous in this {used in "reflexive" sense I am sure} statement that it is best not to begin.

Have to agree with the above one liner. I am really glad that you are not going to begin. Thanks.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby sanjaykumar » 17 Jan 2016 01:05

It might be more profitable to scan the earlier statement with a modicum of native intelligence. Competence in a given field may not transpose to another. I would expect such a remark of the average American high schooler.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Suresh S » 17 Jan 2016 01:28

sanjaykumar wrote:It might be more profitable to scan the earlier statement with a modicum of native intelligence. Competence in a given field may not transpose to another. I would expect such a remark of the average American high schooler.



Now there is a lot of truth in that statement.I do not know sanjay what the guy was thinking before making that kind of statement.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Surya » 17 Jan 2016 02:36

sanjaykumar wrote:It might be more profitable to scan the earlier statement with a modicum of native intelligence. Competence in a given field may not transpose to another. I would expect such a remark of the average American high schooler.


+1

makes you wonder does it not

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby member_29325 » 17 Jan 2016 03:29

But as we have all seen on TV many many times, Modi and Obama have already made many speeches predicting that India and the US will be BFFs in the coming years and decades, so I am optimistic that it will all work out.

Just a matter of time before we get to see live TV broadcasts of a future Indian PM and a future US president running around trees in the white house or 7RCR lawn, while singing patriotic love songs, IMO. The whole world will get to hold hands and peace will reign in this edge of the Milky Way.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Shreeman » 17 Jan 2016 04:06

KLN,

Your point is just as obvious as the ugly reality from the other side. The trained and powerful abdul expects everyone to speak english, or russian, or japani as the case may be. And have a full grasp of the local customs, not just laws. And I dont mean grasp as in the local swimming pool, at the new year party, or in the local school playground as them seeriyan refujees. Fairness and logic just doesnt apply at this level.

Foreign travel is not easy. The protest is as much against these unfortunate incidents as it is against those making it appear harmless. It is not the same as domestic travel. On either side. Abuse of power is common place, and readily publicized and not denied on one shore. So it must be on the other.

Now, what can you do after the fact? Not much really. Except guard against next event.

You have to strengthen indian institutions, in this case the external affairs ministry, to be more than a figurehead for bakistani talk statements. May be actually implement travel advisories and cultural sensitivity training, and soon. Give people big badges that say I dont speak english? All these are ways to reduce the next mishap. Most westerners take vaccines and boosters. Consider this the equivalent. You train visitors, believe me, the officials will be sensitied if their reputations are widely known.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby chanakyaa » 17 Jan 2016 05:09

Shreeman wrote:....
You have to strengthen indian institutions, in this case the external affairs ministry, to be more than a figurehead for bakistani talk statements. May be actually implement travel advisories and cultural sensitivity training, and soon. Give people big badges that say I dont speak english? All these are ways to reduce the next mishap. Most westerners take vaccines and boosters. Consider this the equivalent. You train visitors, believe me, the officials will be sensitied if their reputations are widely known.

Shreemanji, your analogy of vaccines and boosters is spot on. A combinations of advisories, information pamphlets at the consulates and/or at the airport in regional languages educating travelers about potential dangers is a great idea. Is it possible that some Indians are confused with refugees in Europe and receive same bad treatment as Syrian refugees. That would be so sad.

This Is The Cartoon Germany Hands Out To Sexually Frustrated Refugees

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby member_29218 » 17 Jan 2016 07:03

arshyam wrote:Nice defence by the 'har har USA' brigade. Immediate submissions entered into the record, pertaining to India's problems and saying it is all the same.

No, it isn't. Because the US paints itself to be an exceptional country, land of this, home of that, whatever, and makes sure the rest of the world are drilled into acceptance through multiple outlets (news media, Hollywood, etc.). It does not brand itself as an ordinary country with problems that occur in other ordinary countries. In that case, what's wrong in examining that claim to see if it holds water? And why the need to bring in non-existent Indian claims to exceptionalism and thereby dismissing the original examination? (Though personally, I think India has extremely strong claims to her exceptionalism and should make them).

Then there is this civilizational mission to right the world of its problems. Oh, we are exceptional, now we are going to try to make the rest of the world the same, never mind that one loses the claim to exceptionalism then. American civilization is young and sadly immature, like a little kid's: "oh I am good, so you must be too, or I will come with my friends and fight and make you be nice to me", "every one loves me, and if they don't, they hate me" not understanding the possibility of being in between. Then was this president, no less, who went on to say "if you are not with us, you must be against us". Really?

Kindly don't come to try and do good and 'fix' world. The world was here long before your nation was established, and will continue to be here for a long time into the future.


Sigh....... this is bound to get tiresome pretty quickly.

I think it is easy to be critical when you are mostly on one side. you get a glimpse of the other side from time to time, usually short lived and blurry and you make of it what you will based on your preconceived notions and confirmation bias being what it is, you come away smug in the knowledge that you were right all along.

This applies equally to the Indian coming to the US on short family trips or a 'posting' from his multinational, and the NRI who needs to travel to India for the wedding he cannot get out of, falls sick and has a miserable time overall.

Those who think American $hit does not smell are living in a perfumed garden of their own imagination. Those that believe India sits in a position of moral superiority because of its ancient culture, past glory, lack of hegemonist ambitions and humble populace need to take a hard look at themselves.

I don't think America forces anybody to watch Hollywood movies or ape its designer fashions, people do it to themselves. I was in India last month around Christmas and was shocked to see that the malls in Delhi had even more garish decorations celebrating the season than the ones here in the US did, complete with carol singers, fat guys in Santa outfits and little sleighs with reindeers for the kids to ride around in. With rows of Western fashion houses - from Gap to Lacoste lining the aisles on either side, I felt I was in an upscale mall in suburban America rather than Saket in Delhi.

Rampant consumerism is not America's gift to the world, it is America's own biggest problem and the world is slowly being afflicted with this disease.

What the US is good at is blowing its own trumpet and being proud of itself, regardless of whether it has reason to be or not. What India is good at is squandering its hard won gains in the international arena, always looking inwards and being bogged down by its own internecine conflicts. The lessons of history are forgotten easily and it is thus doomed to repeat them. There is hope today though and one can only wait and see if the promise of a proud and resurgent India comes through.

From this side of the fence - and I confess my view may be equally blurry and biased - this is what I see.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby habal » 17 Jan 2016 08:22

Those that believe India sits in a position of moral superiority because of its ancient culture, past glory, lack of hegemonist ambitions and humble populace need to take a hard look at themselves.


sire, how can we even dare do that. Constantly reminded as we are of our flaws on 'bharat-rakshak forum' .. no less. The difference is not that India & a subset of Indians are nasty in their own way and USA and a subset of USA'ans try their best to give the non-white a hard time as possible. At the end of the day all things said and done .. all praise to USA for the small things that they do well will still manage to destroy all things that you 'should' stand for in an as comfortable a setting as possible. Discrimination in alabama is just one part of it. Maybe someday I will be able to write it out.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Shreeman » 17 Jan 2016 09:39

primus,

It is easy to take faith in certain talking points. For example,

-- "it is easy to...": No, it is not easy at all. Hell, it is hard to write this stuff. No one wants to see this bleak a picture. Even as a visitor, you dont want to travel to somalia for your honeymoon. And you want to bring back only good memories. Most that speak here speak with several decades and intimate knowledge on either side. This discounting of facts by you, is what is easy.

-- "I dont think unmreeka doex X...": You see this is a talking point. In short, Unreeka does exactly X. Next you will say journalists are real things. And BBC is great reporting and CNN and FOX carry the torch of truth. No one "forces" you to watch them either. Why, just turn off the TV and stare at the blank screen.

-- "What the US is good at...": Again no. It is the big stick. The stick that is kept in good shape and wielded incessantly. Thats what unmreeka is good at. Under the stick, everyone sings paeans. people are, at their core, still just monkeys. Imitation is the surest way of subjugation. You think only bakistanis cut off their hands? Is closing your mind any better? What you saw in saket is true in manilla, seoul and tokyo too. And would be in islamaintgood given half a chance. Who wants to get on the wrong side of the reigning alpha? russia.

-- "What India is good...": Again, you go by public news reports that no one forced you to watch. Mere talking points. What India is good at, is squirming with its coconuts in a vice --financially, militarily, geographically. From UN in 48, to Shastri at Tashkent, to the US fleet in the bay of bengal, to Clinton on the phone. The impact of extraneous meddling doesnt sink in, because no one dares talk tibet or 62. But that isnt the point. This isnt a torn shirt comparison of *governments*. It is the state of affairs that impacts the common man that is being argued. And hopefully as far from the shirt and fly as we can keep it.

It is also not a zero sum game. Both countries can go to their nadir. And both societies could import more of the choicest from afghanistan and columbia. But they will make these choices under circumstances that are not being fully disclosed.

Market penetration, technical production quality, bare flesh -- all things that con you into hullucinations, just as good as being forced. And thats not counting the underhanded. You think dawood etc are in bollywood by accident? Or el chapo the only crook that wanted hollywood glory? No, this stuff is routine and commonplace as salt. Why werent bakistanis terrorists in hollywood even well past 9/11? It didnt suit the narrative being pushed. If that isnt propaganda down your throat, then what is?

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby member_29218 » 17 Jan 2016 20:04

habal wrote:
Those that believe India sits in a position of moral superiority because of its ancient culture, past glory, lack of hegemonist ambitions and humble populace need to take a hard look at themselves.


sire, how can we even dare do that. Constantly reminded as we are of our flaws on 'bharat-rakshak forum' .. no less. The difference is not that India & a subset of Indians are nasty in their own way and USA and a subset of USA'ans try their best to give the non-white a hard time as possible. At the end of the day all things said and done .. all praise to USA for the small things that they do well will still manage to destroy all things that you 'should' stand for in an as comfortable a setting as possible. Discrimination in alabama is just one part of it. Maybe someday I will be able to write it out.


Habal Ji, I am not 'reminding' anybody of anything, and that was never my intent.

All I have tried to say is that the constant debate over US vs India gets tiresome because the same things are repeated, the same egos are hurt on both sides. Neither side is perfect in any respect. One can only see this if one has had a prolonged exposure to both sides. I have now lived about half of my life in both parts of the world.

There are good people, good institutions, good morals, good things happening in both parts of the world, just as there are bad things. It is foolish to think that all is well in the West while India stinks or the other way around.

If you read my posts over the past few days, I have cited several examples of the rampant racism and discrimination that has plagued the US not just in the past but to this day. I am witness to it on a daily basis, living here and reading/watching the news. As I've said repeatedly, the US of A is no paragon of virtue.

However, neither is India, at least not how it has been over the past several decades.

If I may be allowed to explain a little more, NRIs (oh how I hate that phrase) have a unique and often unenvious perspective on life, having become the proverbial 'dhobi ka kuttas'.

Most of us (myself certainly) have a fierce pride and love for our pitrabhoomi which is India (note, I am not saying 'matrabhoomi' which to me has a different meaning), the land of my forefathers and ancestors. At the same time, we also have a sense of loyalty to our 'Karmabhoomi' which is our adopted homeland - be it the US or Australia. This is the land that has given us our daily bread and butter for so many years, and it holds my future and that of my children and so on. It's well being is essential to me. Having said that, India is where I was born, where my samskaras come from, and it shaped me as a human being in more ways than one, my debt to the pitrabhoomi can never be paid off in this life.

As somebody who has lived and worked in both places, it is hard not to compare, and harder still not to want the best of both worlds FOR both the worlds that matter to me. Nothing would please me more than to see India prosper, every achievement of the country I left behind fills me with pride. Every terrorist attack on Indian soil is a stab in my chest. I will forever be an 'Indian-American'. This is how most immigrants see themselves in the US, heck, you still have St.Patrick's Day Parade in New York every year even though the Irish came over 150 yrs ago.

On the other side, I am also concerned about what I see (and I have said repeatedly I may be absolutely wrong in my view) as shortfalls or deficiencies in the Indian governance, society, laws or whatever. Is it wrong to suggest that India can improve? Is it only the right of those who never left India to be critical?

Yes, this is Bharat-Rakshak and I am well aware of what that means. I've been here since 1999 (in my old avatar). We're all jingoes, I am no less than anyone else. So it is not, never was my intent to pontificate or be harsh or unfair.

As I've said repeatedly, there is no black and white, and neither the US nor India are perfect in every way. My attempts are simply to understand how they can get there.

Apologies if I have ruffled too many feathers.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Singha » 17 Jan 2016 20:13

while one does hear of such isolated incidents now and then, I would say NRIs are not getting the short end of the stick from the police there. certainly I have heard of none abandoning their (better) money and career there and returning to india due to perceived feral nature of police or racism. there are probably some but nowhere any significant number.

rest is all just talk. if you are a citizen you do have some rights (vote) to fix it. if GC/worker you have to suck it up and move along or you can always return.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby arshyam » 17 Jan 2016 20:41

Primus wrote:I think it is easy to be critical when you are mostly on one side. you get a glimpse of the other side from time to time, usually short lived and blurry and you make of it what you will based on your preconceived notions and confirmation bias being what it is, you come away smug in the knowledge that you were right all along.

This applies equally to the Indian coming to the US on short family trips or a 'posting' from his multinational, and the NRI who needs to travel to India for the wedding he cannot get out of, falls sick and has a miserable time overall.
In a generic sense, perhaps. But I have been stateside for a few years, working as one of those computer types, and have observed things here. I am speaking from my observations. Am I completely neutral? Not even in my dreams. But neutrality comes into the picture only when comparisons are made, and if you read either of my posts above, I was not making comparisons. Only opposing the need to bring in Indian problems when someone raises US problems on the Indo-US thread. As to why discuss US problems, my point was that considering how the US brands itself, discussing its problems is a way to evaluate that branding. Don't see how Indian problems come in here.

Primus wrote:Those who think American $hit does not smell are living in a perfumed garden of their own imagination. Those that believe India sits in a position of moral superiority because of its ancient culture, past glory, lack of hegemonist ambitions and humble populace need to take a hard look at themselves.
Perhaps. But not to be discussed here in the context of American 'shit'.

Primus wrote:I don't think America forces anybody to watch Hollywood movies or ape its designer fashions, people do it to themselves.
Where did I say anything about forcing? Is self-branding equal to forcing?

Primus wrote:What the US is good at is blowing its own trumpet and being proud of itself, regardless of whether it has reason to be or not.
So far, agreed.
Primus wrote:What India is good at is squandering its hard won gains in the international arena, always looking inwards and being bogged down by its own internecine conflicts.
But not with this. Why does the above statement have to be served with this one? Is this the chutney to the dosai? We at BRF should be able to discuss both statements on their own, without any linkages, since none exists.

Primus wrote:From this side of the fence - and I confess my view may be equally blurry and biased - this is what I see.
Not a problem with that. I made the same admission for myself above :mrgreen:

Primus wrote:Apologies if I have ruffled too many feathers.

Likewise. My last on this.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Vayutuvan » 17 Jan 2016 21:02

Viv S wrote:Maybe I'm wrong and if so perhaps the Indian-Americans on the forum, of whom we have a fair few, can correct me. Have you experienced or heard of many incidents of police intimidation against Indians in the US?

I have not. I lived here for three decades. But the. I live in a small place driving is very easy and only small distances. But whatever interactions I had with the police they were always courteous. The few times I faced racism was from immigrants from lower per capita European countries who were in the orbit of FSU. Most probably they feel/felt that Indian immigrants are threat to their jobs. By now the realized we are as we work in STEM. There may be some jealousy involved too in that Indians come here from a much poorer country than their own but have a better standard of living. Par for the course. Their second generation go either way - some do extremely well in studies, hard working, etc. probably another decade or two Indian-Aemricans will also revert to norm. It is already happening in some of my circles.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Vayutuvan » 17 Jan 2016 21:04

Karan M wrote:Primus saar, have to admire your reasoned and polite responses to obnoxious hectoring.

+1

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Singha » 17 Jan 2016 21:15

Their second generation go either way - some do extremely well in studies, hard working, etc. probably another decade or two Indian-Americans will also revert to norm. It is already happening in some of my circles.

^^^ you mean FSU or indic 2nd generation. could you explain a little more about "revert to the norm" => a typical bell curve in ability and professional income vs the above avg of self-selected 1st gen ?

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Paul » 17 Jan 2016 21:34

What I perceive among the Indian immigrants to US is that the generation that migrated during 60s-80s felt they were superior than Indians back home. They passed on this opinion of FOBs and India down to the next generation.

The girls were scared of the Indians in Unversities and would shrink from associating with them. You can see this in the restaurants that the mom and pop run and the kid who comes to serve you. I know someone who is a senior person in Hughes but the eklauta runs a Mailboxes etc. store.

Not a single Nadella or Pichai among them so far let alone a Hargobind Khurana or a Khosla. I place the blame mainly on their parents. Spell bee success does not translate into board room success it seems.

I do not see this attitude among the Indics in their 30s who have migrated recently to US. They are more connected to events back home...root for Modi etc.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Anurag » 17 Jan 2016 23:05

Paul wrote:What I perceive among the Indian immigrants to US is that the generation that migrated during 60s-80s felt they were superior than Indians back home. They passed on this opinion of FOBs and India down to the next generation.

The girls were scared of the Indians in Unversities and would shrink from associating with them. You can see this in the restaurants that the mom and pop run and the kid who comes to serve you. I know someone who is a senior person in Hughes but the eklauta runs a Mailboxes etc. store.

Not a single Nadella or Pichai among them so far let alone a Hargobind Khurana or a Khosla. I place the blame mainly on their parents. Spell bee success does not translate into board room success it seems.

I do not see this attitude among the Indics in their 30s who have migrated recently to US. They are more connected to events back home...root for Modi etc.


Quite True!

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Vayutuvan » 18 Jan 2016 03:35

Paul (Singha, partly an answer to your question too) - the problem I see (anecdotal - no stats) with the new H1Bs is that they are completely oblivious to the opportunities available and have an utter lack of curiosity beyond 8-5 job. They do not upgrade their skills and if their kidsget into engg./medicine, that is good enough. As such majority are from about average engg. colleges in India and have jumped into IT. They just pass by with whatever they learn on the job. The amount and number of opportunities available in the US for their children are enormous but they under optimize and turn their kids into underachievers.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Paul » 18 Jan 2016 06:13

Sir, I am referring to 2nd Generation Indian Americans whose record is very mediocre as they have not capitalized on the humngous advantages their parents have worked hard to give them. What I am asking is that they most likely have a severe attitude problem.

As far as the current generation from average colleges go, I would say their performance is not bad compared to the headwinds one has to contend with in India. Even Sanjiv Sidhu the founder of i2 is from Osmania University.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby NRao » 18 Jan 2016 06:15

Here you go:

For Nikki Haley and other politicians, immigrant ties are a dual-edged sword

Lavanya Ramanathan of The Washington Post wrote:It’s a story that really isn’t that different from the story of millions of Americans.

And yet. When South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley declared herself the “proud daughter of Indian immigrants” in the Republican response to the State of the Union address last week, her brief personal narrative felt like a departure from the folksy, Kohl’s-shopping, burger-flipping yarns that so many politicians tell about themselves in an election cycle.

Candidates have been laying out politically calculated versions of their origin stories from the stump for as long as we’ve had a popular vote. Haley — a rising GOP star whose name is being bandied about as a possible vice presidential pick — just became the latest ambitious politician to play up not her American rootsiness but her immigrant roots.

On the campaign trail, it seems, being an immigrant’s kid suddenly has cachet.

Among Republicans, Sen. Marco Rubio of Florida has evoked his parents’ emigration from Cuba (while notably titling his 2012 memoir “An American Son”) and Sen. Ted Cruz of Texas has campaigned with his Cuban-born father at his side. Democratic candidate Bernie Sanders last week shouted down Republican contender Donald Trump’s birther rhetoric by comparing his own background with that of the sitting president, saying, “Like Obama, I am the son of an immigrant father.” (And how’s this for a twist: Trump’s mother was an immigrant, too, from Scotland, though no one in Trump’s camp is quite shouting that fact from the rooftops.)

This election cycle, declaring oneself a child of immigrants is to play simultaneously politics and identity politics, to tap into the bootstrapping American value of making one’s way through ingenuity and hard work while, perhaps, making nice with Latino and Asian American voters who may have similar backstories. “No one who is willing to work hard, abide by our laws and love our traditions,” Haley said in her address, “should ever feel unwelcome in this country.”

For Haley and other Republicans, drawing attention to a first-generation American upbringing may actually be a delicate dance that also makes their policies seem more palatable, says Jennifer Lawless, a professor of government at American University. It’s an ideal way to couch the party’s hard line on amnesty and refugees before an election in which immigration policy may well take center stage.

“It legitimizes your position,” says Lawless, “because you can say that you understand that experience on a personal level and this is still how you feel about the issue.

“It’s not this knee-jerk anti-immigrant reaction,” she says. “It’s seen as a reaction linked to their own personal experience.”

Candidates have identified themselves as coming from immigrant stock before, but in the past, it was considered more politically risky. Of our 43 presidents, only seven have had immigrant mothers or fathers, reported Fusion, the news network launched by ABC and Univision, last fall.

John F. Kennedy was widely known to have been just a few generations removed from Irish immigrants, but his family largely played down that heritage, says Barbara Perry, director of presidential studies at the University of Virginia. It was only after his election that he embarked on a historic trip to Ireland to visit his familial home, perhaps emboldened by being already in office.

In 1998, Democratic presidential hopeful Michael Dukakis evoked his upbringing, arguing in one speech, “The best America is a nation where the son of Greek immigrants, with your help, can seek and win the presidency of the United States.”

But rather than hoping to tap into some Greek American voting bloc, says Lawless, “I really think it was just a bullet on his bio.”

With last Tuesday’s speech, Haley may not have been shoring up the Indian American vote either, but the larger bloc of immigrants and their children, who may make for a powerful force at the polls. According to data compiled by the non-partisan American Immigration Council, between 1996 and 2012, the number of immigrants and their American-born children who registered to vote rose by more than 10 million.

Haley’s first-generation upbringing is already resonating in the media and in her party. Since Tuesday, she has been described as the “youthful daughter of Indian immigrants,” and by one slightly confused GOP senator from Wisconsin, Ron Johnson , as simply, “an immigrant.”

“On one level, and I think she meant it sincerely; she’s proud to be a daughter of Indian immigrants,” says Deepa Iyer, a senior fellow with the Center for Social Inclusion and the author of “We Too Sing America,” a book that looks at recent immigration. “She’s said that before, many times, and I think she sincerely wants to claim it. And it is a way to connect to groups of different Americans, given all the demographic shifts we’re seeing in the country.”

But, Iyer says, it’s also a way to show the Republican party as anything but “xenophobic and divisive.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby ramana » 18 Jan 2016 06:49

Paul, There were two streams of early immigrants from India: one stream of those pursuing graduate studies from IITs and other elite institutes. The second stream was comparatively larger group of Green Card immigrants with five year degree or MSc. The 1965 Immigration act laid down those conditions. The second stream was more folksy and were the ones that pulled their relatives on 5th preference quotas.These were the ones who created conditions for stabilization of the community for their relatives setup grocery chops and clothing stores.

The first stream had a sneering attitude towards things Indian. In 1980s the Census particularly counted Indian immigrants.
There was ambiguity about racial categorization:Caucasian or other. The first group wanted the former. However one woman Prof at Rutgerrs convinced that seminar that while they were all well qualified the same might not hold for their progeny and to safeguard interests better to take the other category.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby NRao » 18 Jan 2016 07:22

I am referring to 2nd Generation Indian Americans whose record is very mediocre


Mediocre as compared to what?

Even Sanjiv Sidhu the founder of i2 is from Osmania University


He may not have done as well in India. There are umpteen Indians from similar colleges that have done very well.

If there is one thing good to say about the US it is that one can take risks and no one is going to think twice if one were to fail. Господин would not survive here.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Singha » 18 Jan 2016 08:09

Vayu, atleast in SV parents of any hue are quite obsessed about giving their kids every academic advantage....not sure what you mean by opportunity...to get into opportunity one has to first be in the right school district and then a good college right ?

everything else like being a olympic level swimmer, teen entrepreneur or dropout genius is like a tournament with very sharp cutoffs at every level. these parents are the first in their family with any level of prosperity so they wont give a free wind to their kids to sail where they may. those kids who do well financially might later on with their own kids ... the sample size is large enough now, unlike the 60s and 70s migrants.

agree about the kids of MUTUs from the old era. insufferable and distant. the day I landed in massa with a shaky 5day gurgaon driving school course and paper license, went to a car rental near my consulting cos office.....so i take the car and cannot drive as the traffic looks too scary even on a inside road. a kind indic gent who was giving back his rental volunteered to sit with me and take me back to office to pickup my friend and then drop him off at his cousin(MUTU) palatial home nearby. he said was from chennai but travelled to NJ often.
he said the MUTU cousin had two teen daughters and they had a firm rule they would only drive Merc or BMW and thats all the family purchased in cars.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Arjun » 18 Jan 2016 08:43

Paul wrote:Not a single Nadella or Pichai among them so far let alone a Hargobind Khurana or a Khosla. I place the blame mainly on their parents. Spell bee success does not translate into board room success it seems.

Check out Aneel Bhusri's performance in the board room...or Manjul Bhargava in academia. Or take the Forbes Midas list of Top 100 VCs - many of the Indian Americans there are second gen.

From what data I am seeing, I see no basis to conclude any decline in performance between first and second gen IAs (there would of course be a lag in achievement since the latter is a couple of decades behind in average age).

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby shiv » 18 Jan 2016 08:53

Paul wrote:What I perceive among the Indian immigrants to US is that the generation that migrated during 60s-80s felt they were superior than Indians back home. They passed on this opinion of FOBs and India down to the next generation.

LOL! I had a now deceased uncle who was butt hurt that he did not get a PG medical seat in India but quickly became a millionaire in the US. He gave my mother and aunt a tour of his Florida home (early 1980s), telling them "That is a TV set. You get pictures and news. This is a remote control. This is our kitchen." etc But then again he was a man who had graduated from a floor level wood fire in his Channapatna kitchen and passed via Bangalore station, Mumbai airport straight to America and knew nothing else.

But the India that some of my contemporaries left behind was so futureless that these people got pride and self confidence from America, apart from the attitude that America is the land of dreams. it certainly was back then. Even back then some of my medical contemporaries me were "just excluded" from the US train by removing an exam center in Delhi but retaining one in Islamabad (or Karachi) or Manila. When I think back to those days - the confidence that the US has in Pakis amuses me - Pakis certainly suckered the Americans

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Gus » 18 Jan 2016 09:34

^they still are making 'em suckers. We reserve all sorts of harsh stuff for our leaders but arguably the Americans lost more to pakis than us, since 911 and I count 911 as a score by pakis.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Singha » 18 Jan 2016 10:17

you take a self-selected strong population of 1000 people and tell them they have to climb a hill or face defeat/loss of h&d etc and all will start climbing strongly. 10% might give up and turn back but rest 90% will make it.

on top of the hill they get to eat, have a house, two cars, education for kids.

they have 1000 kids, 1 per family. I would imagine >10% would coast on these comforts and not try hard enough or by some law of averages not all 1000 kids will be as bright as their parents.

I think thats what is meant by tending to the mean/bell curve etc. the agonizing hunger is no longer there in the 2nd gen onward because they get plenty to eat and are not hanging in there with a thin rope. some of that lack of hunger(in a part of the sample) will be compensated by a bigger playing field/ better opportunity so I would still say it will be ok for the 2nd gen....and even the 3rd gen....from the 4th gen onward we might see more gora type distribution as the population will also enlarge. by that time all vestiges of PIO identity will long be gone , they would have married widely into other ethnic groups and all this would truly be a moot point to argue over.

in india I have seen seldom more than 3 generations are able to sustain the competitive edge and discipline needed to accumulate and grow wealth and power. given that our grandfathers were the ones who made the move from being farmers(their parents) to some form of salaried or business job and moved to relatively urban areas, we are the 3rd gen here of educated family line. we should be worried if our kids will be able to sustain the winning streak :((

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Paul » 18 Jan 2016 10:45

Glad to see most people agree....Even if my next generation turn out to be a laggard, my cousins in my village and those who parents were lower middle class are ready to pick the flag and move forward. But difference is we do not sneer at the unwashed masses like the ones Shiv mentioned except a few lutyenite types. This is the crucial diff between us and the 60s-80s migrants to Umreeka.

My aunt had 9 kids husband abandoned her almost came on the streets for survival.. kids grew up in my village, one son went into Police as a constable now has two sons who work for Semiconductor cos in Bay area. Two others were laggards and the rest are doing ok.

Point is if our next generation slows down they will be relegated to sidelines or wither away most have one kid only these days...there are enough hungry people in India for the forseeable future who will be ready to produce the next Ambani.

Secondly for those who are defending the 2nd Gen, there are far more success stories of FOBs who have achieved more success in spite of having to navigate the maze of green card citizenship ladder.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Vayutuvan » 18 Jan 2016 10:57

Paul wrote:Sir, I am referring to 2nd Generation Indian Americans whose record is very mediocre as they have not capitalized on the humngous advantages their parents have worked hard to give them. What I am asking is that they most likely have a severe attitude problem.

As far as the current generation from average colleges go, I would say their performance is not bad compared to the headwinds one has to contend with in India. Even Sanjiv Sidhu the founder of i2 is from Osmania University.

Yes my batchmate. I know his classmates well one was my roommate in Mumbai and a good friend. Yet another my classmate in PG and a dear friend as well. One exec VP of I2 used to work for us. Another joined i2 but came to our company but left as we couldn't keep him. We could not provide enough challenge for that person though was given sweat equity. Excellent chp but US chacha/FB have lot more attraction than startups in India/US boondocks. :((

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Singha » 18 Jan 2016 12:25

Glad to see most people agree....Even if my next generation turn out to be a laggard, my cousins in my village and those who parents were lower middle class are ready to pick the flag and move forward.

^^^
yes the next 'spear' of the revolution will be the kids from middle-middle/lower-middle class families in metros and tier2-3 towns who are getting a reasonable education and have the need and desire to slog like mad to work their way up. same in india , same in china or any other developing country I suppose.
these are the kids slogging like monks for 2 years to get into engg or medical.

if I look at those who were well off kids in metros and could grab the 'opportunities' in 80s almost all are abroad. there is no old-school blorean family I have met where many of whose members are not well settled abroad and their younger gen my age are also abroad in large nos. so the 1-child elites currently in metros will also emigrate abroad as they grow up.

india is providing a lot of people to the world, all law abiding and hard working. in Gulf construction projects a lot of the low level workers and mid level civil engineers are indian . the arabs prefer a euro gora as the high level engineer. these people are working harder and faster than similar projects in india (except blr itvity big slab shipyards) and seem to get better dress/eqpt etc per natgeo videos.

here there might be laws but no effort is enforced to minimize dust and hazardous material exposure to the workers. looking at dust in ORR projects here I am sure the workers are ingesting LOT of cement dust and will suffer severe lung damages and lifespan may not cross 50. on top of that most drink, smoke and chew tobacco. they are being used like corn meal for the grinder - the fat kats want the rotis and the corn has to be ground up.

in my generation on my fathers side out of 12 cousins and siblings, only 3 (me included) were "good in studies". I work in itvity, one in a oil PSU and other in a pvt bank. rest either dont work or in less paying jobs.

my mothers side has a better success ratio - 8/15 - and two of their fathers my uncles even in that era 1950s went to BHU and roorkee. one went to army engg, one to UK and settled down as doctor. one a professor. very tfta for village lads - but again hungry village lads who were given good education by the headmaster of their basic school and had the hunger to do well, not slouch with a soda and a xbox :mrgreen:

Haresh
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Haresh » 18 Jan 2016 17:29

The first generation is the one that strives for success because they have very real memories and experience of poverty. They will grasp any and all opportunities. The second and third generations enjoy the spoils of this success and have not experienced real hardship and poverty.

My family are originally from Punjab. Some went to Fiji as Indentured Labourers and from there they went to NZ, Aus and the USA, UK.

My wifes family are 5th generation removed from Bihar, they went as Indetured Labourers to Trinidad.

My American relations and I refer specifically to a particular cousin, who's four children are:
Medical Doctor, Lawyer, Senior Nurse and NASA Robotics engineer.

My cousin and his children are all Amrican born BUT they have seen the poverty that our families left behind.

Success makes wealth and unearned wealth makes you fatally weak.
I remember when I was a child and we used to visit the pind in Punjab. I moaned continuosly, the flies, the dirt, the smell etc. Slowley I developed a love of the land of my ancestors and I hope I have passed this on to my children.
Just because one generation makes a succesful life does not mean that hunger for success will pass onto the next generation.

I have met a few very privilaged Indians from rich families in Delhi and Mumbhai, educated at the best schools etc. They and their children are medicore at best, not high flyers, some are absolute failures. It happens in all societies and cultures.
If you are cold, then you have to learn and make a fire. If you have always had a fire then you don't.

member_29218
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby member_29218 » 18 Jan 2016 20:36

Paul wrote:
Secondly for those who are defending the 2nd Gen, there are far more success stories of FOBs who have achieved more success in spite of having to navigate the maze of green card citizenship ladder.


Paul Ji, it is, IMHO not quite that simple and I am not sure I agree with your conclusions.

You see, the FOB from India today, just like 50 yrs ago is a self-selected individual. Highly motivated, hungry, capable, and above all, very hard working (that, to me is the key). He has no bank balance or rich parent to fall back upon. I am referring here to the 'normal' guy who makes it here on his own steam. This does not apply to the child of rich parents who is sent to CMU or NYU for a 'phoren' degree. Not saying those kids are dumb, but the same yardstick does not apply, at least not as rigorously.

I am also removing from this equation the already well employed IIT graduate who works for a multinational like Yahoo and is simply being posted to the US for a fixed term. He may then opt out and go on his own, but again, the same rules do not apply to him.

If you look at the 'self-propelled' FOB today, he is really no different from those that came here 50 yrs ago and will no doubt do very well.

When it comes to comparing him with the second generation Indians, many or most of whom were born here, the situation is indeed different, but not that much so.

If I may explain.

The second generation born here to parents who were themselves highly motivated individuals has the disadvantage of being well-off, not that hungry, maybe not that motivated or hardworking and possibly not that desperate to succeed. In that sense they may not perform as well as FOBs in a simple analysis.

However, they also have several advantages which the FOBs lack. They are a product of the local institutions and are treated on par with all other applicants, usually in preference to International students. Their parents have tons of connections, they are coached and trained to succeed in the local milieu - local companies/institutions would rather employ people who are from within the system.

We are also assuming that the second generation has somehow lost its ability or its brains were left behind. In my view, these kids are quite smart and capable, after all they are the product of families that place a huge importance on education and career. In that sense Indians are like Jews, generation after generation of Jewish families have done well, you do not lose your abilities simply by being born in a well to do home.

It is anecdotal, I know, but in my own extended family, at a casual count there are around 24 'kids' over the age of 18, most were born here. If I include desi friends and such, the number triples easily. I can tell you that only two have been college drop outs and two others have what would be considered modest jobs. Most of the others are in high-ranking jobs or in graduate courses in the pipeline to become physicians/lawyers/bankers. One guy is a self-made entrepreneur, the first in our family to have a net worth of $100million.

I believe the Indian diaspora, at least in the US will, like its Jewish counterpart, continue to succeed, whether it is through new blood coming in from India or successive generations growing here.


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