India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 23 Jan 2016 10:24

Indian running for mayor of infamous Madison Alabama......

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-ameri ... or-n500771

Y. Kanan · Post by **Y. Kanan** » 23 Jan 2016 13:39

Singha wrote:
NRao wrote:India tops Asia in sending scientists, engineers to US
the problem is this:
7 decades of congi economy has not produced even 5 indian chaebols with deep roots around the world and large diversified r&d operations to absorb scientists. each chaebol in turn would support atleast 10 world class smaller component makers.

3 decades of jungle capitalism in cheen has produced the worlds biggest shipyards, the worlds biggest electronic assembly lines, construction sector at world scale, exportable machine tool makers at scale, one of the top2 largest car and CV markets, lenovo, huawei, zte, xiaomi, baidu, tencent, alibaba, weibo and many more who are able to compete with the world.

our chaebols are midgets even by asian std. many are traders, not producers of knowledge and product.

they also have far more univs in the top300 in the world than india.

15 years of very uneven jungle capitalism is needed to even bring us to a point where such things can be imagined.

it is rahul gandhi and gangs life mission never to let this happen. land rights, dalit rights, muslim rights, EJ rights are all convenient hooks to perpetuate their brand of economics. tens of millions still buy it the myth of developing->developed without wealth inequality....ie be a sweden all the way from bottom to the top. never been done and not possible.

just drive around in rural areas of large states - it could be 100s of km before you see a significant industry cluster at a level of tech able to export.

Perhaps the brain drain alluded to in that article is partly responsible for this. I'm personally guilty of having been part of this problem myself (though no longer; I'm back in B'Lore and this time probably for good).

member_29089 · Post by **member_29089** » 23 Jan 2016 14:20

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 691830.cms

If the US has helped India bust the ISIS terrorists' dhamaka in India I wonder where are our so called educated conspiracy theorists on BRF who - on a daily basis- are claiming that the US created and supports the ISIS. They don't need to feel thankful that their loved ones' lives in India might have been saved by US's timely help prior to 26th January event but at least they (the conspiracy theorists) can say "oops".

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 23 Jan 2016 16:10

GunterH wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 691830.cms

If the US has helped India bust the ISIS terrorists' dhamaka in India I wonder where are our so called educated conspiracy theorists on BRF who - on a daily basis- are claiming that the US created and supports the ISIS. They don't need to feel thankful that their loved ones' lives in India might have been saved by US's timely help prior to 26th January event but at least they (the conspiracy theorists) can say "oops".

Why don't you visit the right place to satisfy your Conspiracy hunger

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... start=1120

member_29325 · Post by **member_29325** » 23 Jan 2016 18:50

If the facts fit the case for the US not only directly responsible for allowing Iraqi weapons to "fall into" the hands of ISIS (just a few warehouses full of them, along with Toyota trucks and Hummers), and making motions of taking down ISIS without actually touching them on the ground (by pretending they were "syrian rebels who need US support"), and turning a blind eye to ISIS selling oil via the US's bestest ally in the neighbourhood Turkey (by winking at Turdogan's complicity in creating the financial means for ISIS to take on Syria), then it follows that the US is directly responsible for the creation of ISIS and allowing it to enrich itself from Iraqi and Libyan oil wells (both states "liberated" by the US in the recent past) .

All of these are facts, not conspiracies...and if you believe they are, you need to stop watching Pravda..I mean, CNN and the rest of the propaganda trash US govt. feeds you.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Jan 2016 19:04

If the US has helped India bust the ISIS terrorists' dhamaka in India I wonder where are our so called educated conspiracy theorists on BRF who - on a daily basis- are claiming that the US created and supports the ISIS. They don't need to feel thankful that their loved ones' lives in India might have been saved by US's timely help prior to 26th January event but at least they (the conspiracy theorists) can say "oops".

Nations have interests and are not subject to logic. One cannot expect it.

The MMS gov did not play this game at all - forget playing it well. Modi has shown an inclination to play it and seems to be elarning it as they go along.

Also, see the way Russia is behaving.

BTW, the CIA has offered to throw their weight in protecting the visiting French Prez.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Jan 2016 00:14

I find this quite amusing.The CIA of al people providing security for our R-Day parade! When a foreign HOS arrives,it is normally the security apparatus of both nations who usually work out security arrangements. Seldom if ever is another entity brought in to advise /participate in the same.It would reflect shabbily upon the host nation and particulars relating to the security SOPs for our VVIPs is never compromised. It the CIA is really required then it is revealing though. It says a lot about the state of our security capability,which in recent times,esp after the PKot attack (and the NSG's neglect of essential eqpt.,etc., in the IT revelations), underscores the utter neglect of security in general during the UPA decade.

member_29172 · Post by **member_29172** » 24 Jan 2016 05:23

GunterH wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 691830.cms

If the US has helped India bust the ISIS terrorists' dhamaka in India I wonder where are our so called educated conspiracy theorists on BRF who - on a daily basis- are claiming that the US created and supports the ISIS. They don't need to feel thankful that their loved ones' lives in India might have been saved by US's timely help prior to 26th January event but at least they (the conspiracy theorists) can say "oops".

My my, such love for the deer unkil hainji. The US/UK created ISIS is not a conspiracy. The rebels in syria were freely funded by the fundoos in us and uk, free moolah, free weapons, free training from "american journalists/ngos/humanitarians" who were there just to spread ~~christianity~~, ~~work as ears and eyes of the anglo munnas~~ to spread the good news of democracy and freedom to the jihadi masses. I can give you the timeline if you want, it was happening in late 2013-early 2014. Then the name of ISIS started coming up in all guardian, bbc, cnn, type media. The first few ones i remember reading were in 2014 april.

One article published in June - http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/isis-5-thi ... -1.2684540

from the news outlet of the most truthful and civilised country that has ever existed - http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-24179084

so on and so forth.

member_29172 · Post by **member_29172** » 24 Jan 2016 05:40

GunterH wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 691830.cms

If the US has helped India bust the ISIS terrorists' dhamaka in India I wonder where are our so called educated conspiracy theorists on BRF who - on a daily basis- are claiming that the US created and supports the ISIS. They don't need to feel thankful that their loved ones' lives in India might have been saved by US's timely help prior to 26th January event but at least they (the conspiracy theorists) can say "oops".

And RAW leads helped in busting osama's little hideout. That's what intelligence agencies do, am I supposed to clap for them?

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 24 Jan 2016 06:39

Fascinating insights from Bruce Reidel's new book on Kennedy and Sino-Indian war 1962. Posting in full:

While some of it might be biased towards US, must read how
1. US would've helped India much earlier and strongly, had it not been Nehru's arrogance towards Kennedy

2. India was close to getting US military aid worth ~4B in today's money but the deal was jinxed.

3. Pak was warned not to intervene in the war

4. 10,000 US troops were airlifted to India and a CBG was deployed off Kolkata

In 1962, India and US were ‘that’ close to becoming allies in a war against China

For many years there’s been a story floating around that in 1962, when the Chinese invasion was into its fourth unstoppable week, the Indian government panicked completely and wrote to the US government pleading for mind-boggling supplies of armaments – including several squadrons of the latest US fighter aircraft and bombers. I heard this story a few years ago from someone who’d been an aide at the Indian embassy in Washington at the time, who told me how the Ambassador had called him in and wordlessly handed him New Delhi’s letter to see.

The two men had then quietly shaken their heads at the sheer magnitude of air power being requested, and what it said about the degree of panic in the Indian government with the many questions it raised – the first one, of course, being who exactly was supposed to fly those highly sophisticated new aircraft (since Indian pilots were obviously untrained to fly them). But there has never been any real confirmation of this story. Until now.

Bruce Reidel is a US security expert, veteran CIA spook, and advisor on South Asian issues. His recent book, JFK’s Forgotten Crisis: Tibet, the CIA and Sino-Indian War, looks at the 1962 War from an unusual perspective: the hitherto unknown, but key, role that the US played behind the scenes. The source of Reidel’s information is a rich lode of material in the US, including recently de-classified letters between Nehru and Kennedy and the private diaries of some of the protagonists, among them being JK Galbraith, the US ambassador in India, a key player in the drama. What makes this book especially interesting is the fact that successive Indian governments – including the present one – have been so tight-lipped about what actually happened in 1962 (to the extent that the Henderson-Brooks Report, commissioned to investigate the causes of the defeat, has still not been de-classified, over fifty years later, although a copy is readily available on the Net).

Reiterating the ‘Domino Theory’?

Reidel reveals the fact that Nehru did indeed write to Kennedy on November 19, 1962 requesting as many as 12 squadrons of state-of-the-art fighter aircraft and two squadrons of long-range bombers – 350 combat aircraft, in all! – as well as extensive radar cover and transport aircraft. And as for the question of who was going to fly these aircraft, the letter was, in fact, specific: the Indian government asked for the loan of US pilots and ground crews until such time as the necessary Indian crews could be trained.

The stakes, Nehru’s letter went on to state, were not merely “the survival of India, but the survival of free and independent governments in the whole of… Asia.” This revelation of Reidel’s is dynamite, especially coming from Nehru who, despite his long-standing Non-Aligned position, now seemed to be reiterating President Eisenhower’s famous “Domino Theory”, and inviting a US military presence into Asia (at just about the time that the Vietnam War was first beginning to hot up).

Kennedy and Nehru did not, as it happens, share a particularly good relationship. When they had met, the year before, Nehru had rubbed the young Kennedy the wrong way by appearing to be condescending and preachy. But the situation was too serious to let something like bad chemistry get in in the way; the US saw the Chinese attack as the Mao Tse Tung’s most dangerous action since the Korean War, ten years before. Kennedy, therefore, responded swiftly to New Delhi’s appeal by air-lifting emergency supplies for the Indian army, and a dialogue was immediately initiated for the next steps.

Holding back the Pakistanis

There was, however, a serious complicating factor that would have to be tackled straightaway. Pakistan, a close US ally at the time, seeing India diverted by the Chinese attack, perceived a unique opportunity for itself to step in, occupy Kashmir and close that matter once and for all.

Fortunately for India, though, the US ambassador in New Delhi, JK Galbraith, considered this to be military blackmail, and told Washington to “for god’s sake, keep Kashmir out” of the scenario. Washington, in turn, bullied Pakistan into backing off, reminding President Ayub Khan that his country was a member of the US anti-communist alliance, and that the US would therefore not tolerate him taking advantage of a communist Chinese attack on India. Khan reluctantly agreed, but he never forgave what he saw as a great US betrayal.

But most frightening of all was the timing of this: incredibly, it was all happening at precisely the same time that the US was eyeball-to-eyeball with Russia over the Cuban missile crisis, and the world was on the brink of a nuclear holocaust. Indeed, the Chinese had carefully timed their attack on India based on their fore-knowledge of the Cuban crisis, and the calculation that the Russians and Americans would be too preoccupied with each other to interfere in a Sino-Indian conflict on the other side of the globe.

But, as it turned out, they were wrong on that score.

More startling revelations

By November 20, India’s situation looked desperate. The Chinese army, led by officers who had humbled the US forces in Korea, were using some of their tested Korean tactics in NEFA and Ladakh, with devastating effect. They now seemed poised to slice off the entire North-Eastern part of India, east of Siliguri, and Kolkata itself was under threat.

But by now Western arms supplies were pouring into India. According to Reidel, not only were US and British aircraft flying in military aid around-the-clock, but 10,000 US servicemen had actually landed in the country, and Canada and Australia had also been enlisted, just as they had during the Korean War. Moreover, a US aircraft carrier group had been moved strategically into the Bay of Bengal. These revelations, too – assuming they’re true – are dynamite, and one wonders why one didn’t know about all this before.

Meanwhile, discussions were going on between India and US for a massive military aid program. India had asked for $1.3 billion worth of aid (close to $10 billion today), which the US baulked at. Finally, a package of $500 million (approximately $3.5 billion today) was tentatively agreed upon.

At this point China suddenly surprised everybody by ending its invasion and unilaterally withdrawing its forces. As US ambassador JK Galbraith noted with relief in his diary, “Like a thief in the night peace arrived”.

The theory so far has been that this withdrawal was because China had achieved its objective, taught India a lesson and personally destroyed Nehru in the bargain. But Reidel suggests a new theory to us: that the withdrawal was because China’s leadership, surprised by the US’s prompt response to the situation, was worried that it might now decide to up the stakes and actively enter the conflict on India’s side – and it was not willing to take that risk.

That is certainly food for thought.

Discussing a nuclear deterrent!

The fighting may have ended in late November 1962, but there were fears that the war was not necessarily over, and that with the thawing of the Himalayan snows the Chinese might be back the following spring.

Hence, 1963 saw a significant upswing in India’s relations with the US, diplomatic as well as military; as Kennedy was to say, “I can tell you that there is nothing that has occupied our attention more than India in the last nine months”. US pilots were training in India, along with along with British, Canadian and Australian pilots, and the US Secretary of Defense was actually discussing with Kennedy the scope of the US commitment to defend India – and whether it would extend to the use of a nuclear deterrent or not.

Meanwhile, the $500 million US military aid package to India was to be finalised by Kennedy on November 26, 1963. But just four days before that could happen, Kennedy was assassinated, and his successor, Lyndon Johnson, postponed the decision.

The deal was to come up for finalisation once again on May 28, 1964, but it seems to have been fatally jinxed: just the day before, Nehru died in New Delhi, and the Indian team that had arrived in Washington to sign off on it had to return home abruptly.

And so, once again, the deal was postponed, with President Johnson now coming under increasing pressure from Pakistan, who threatened to terminate US access to the Peshawar air-base, from where it had been operating vital spy flights since the 1950s.

Fascinating questions

By now, however, the climate in New Delhi was changing under the new Prime Minister, Lal Bahadur Shastri, who had begun to look, instead, to the Russians for military support. And so the chapter was quietly closed.

The fact that India did not ultimately sign that arms deal with the US was a “lost opportunity in Indo-American relations”, as the then US ambassador noted regretfully. Kennedy had, since the very beginning of his presidency, given thought to the question of who would take the lead in Asia in the long term, India or China, and the developments of 1962 could have – who knows? – led to an economic partnership with the US to set up India as a counterweight to China.

Reidel’s book gives rise to many fascinating questions. And foremost among them is probably this: what if Kennedy and Nehru had not both died when they did, and India had indeed been drawn into a Western-led military alliance as a key member?

What would have happened, for example, when the Vietnam War suddenly blew up a couple of years down the line?

What would India’s stance have been then?

There are some questions that are just too complicated to wrap one’s head around.

JFK’s Forgotten Crisis, Bruce Reidel, Brookings Institution Press.

member_29172 · Post by **member_29172** » 24 Jan 2016 06:52

^^ US was ready to give India nukes if it wasnt for those pesky injuns and their arrogance. Lots of fictional history like this exist. Americans love patting themselves on the back. I am not a big fan of the nehru gandhi family but either the facts are complete lies or there were some conditions that India had to abide by that have been conveniently deleted in the write up.

How delusional can one be, in 2015-2016, western countries won't sign on uranium deals without moronic conditions even when their little paper economies are completely reliant on India and China (retarded rednecks of pacific, if people havent realized). There's no way, 4b plus 100,000 US troops plus other bogus bs was offered. If anything, it would've turned India into a battle ground like Iraq or afganisthan. It was a good move. That kind of foreign troops should never be accepted on our lands. Today we have nukes, but I wonder if they'd be used in actual invasion attempts by the chicoms.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 24 Jan 2016 08:58

completing/correcting the stupid statement posted above:

BTW, the CIA has offered to throw their weight in protecting the visiting French Prez from CIA backed terrorists.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 24 Jan 2016 09:34

Alka_P wrote:^^ US was ready to give India nukes if it wasnt for those pesky injuns and their arrogance. Lots of fictional history like this exist. Americans love patting themselves on the back. I am not a big fan of the nehru gandhi family but either the facts are complete lies or there were some conditions that India had to abide by that have been conveniently deleted in the write up.

How delusional can one be, in 2015-2016, western countries won't sign on uranium deals without moronic conditions even when their little paper economies are completely reliant on India and China (retarded rednecks of pacific, if people havent realized). There's no way, 4b plus 100,000 US troops plus other bogus bs was offered. If anything, it would've turned India into a battle ground like Iraq or afganisthan. It was a good move. That kind of foreign troops should never be accepted on our lands. Today we have nukes, but I wonder if they'd be used in actual invasion attempts by the chicoms.

0.5b and 10,000 troops and no nukes. Nowhere does it say US was ready to give India nukes - at most there was an open question in WH if their military action would include a nuclear deterrent.

On not accepting foreign troops - its not ideal, but if the PM of the country writes multiple times to US and UK requesting military intervention or else the country would lose entire provinces - then I won't be so dismissive. Like I mentioned, there is bound to be a bias in any writer's judgement but these are specific claims that deserve more thought.

Anyone interested could Nehru's letters to Kennedy:
http://historyinpieces.com/documents/do ... ian-war-2/ and
http://historyinpieces.com/documents/do ... ian-war-1/

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Jan 2016 22:52

Robert Blackwill awarded Padma Bhushan award this year.

A step above Padma Sri.

Wonder what he is being rewarded for by NaMo.

arun · Post by **arun** » 26 Jan 2016 06:14

X Posted from the STFUP thread.

kancha wrote:
Falijee wrote:Pakistan Can And Must Dismantle All Terror Networks - Barack Obama
Twitter Link

The Whitehouse website as at the time of my posting shows no record of the US President Obama making this comment, at least none that I could find.

If memory serves this is not the first time that the US has thrown a bone in India’s direction by seeming to support India but sparing the Major Non NATO Ally aka Munna aka the Islamic Republic of Pakistan the blushes by not maintaining a record of the comment on “official” US Government websites.

Can someone please prove me wrong about this instance of US duplicity by dredging up the comment by the US President regards the Islamic Republic of Pakistan that PTI says he made

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 26 Jan 2016 08:24

ramana wrote:Wonder what he is being rewarded for by NaMo.

Visa to Modi. It was in the press in 2014.

member_29325 · Post by **member_29325** » 26 Jan 2016 08:49

Claim that Blackwill was given an award for getting a visa seems like utter rubbish. Modi cannot be refused visa to USA as a head of state. He never visited the US until he was elected PM IIRC.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 26 Jan 2016 09:00

^^

US can`t be judgemental, should give Modi visa: Former Ambassador Blackwill

member_29325 · Post by **member_29325** » 26 Jan 2016 09:04

^^ that means nothing. He just made a statement. You don't hand out a national award for getting PM a visa --- he is being awarded for getting the ball rolling for the Indo-US Nuclear deal when he was Ambassador to India in 2001-2003 and setting the stage for the UPA govt. negotiate the deal. That is quite obvious if you see his career accomplishments in India.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 26 Jan 2016 10:52

Nikhil T wrote:Fascinating insights from Bruce Reidel's new book on Kennedy and Sino-Indian war 1962. Posting in full:

While some of it might be biased towards US, must read how
1. US would've helped India much earlier and strongly, had it not been Nehru's arrogance towards Kennedy

2. India was close to getting US military aid worth ~4B in today's money but the deal was jinxed.

3. Pak was warned not to intervene in the war

4. 10,000 US troops were airlifted to India and a CBG was deployed off Kolkata

Be careful for what people wish for. The US had a terrible record in supporting democracy in Central-South America and east Asia. South Vietnam president Diem who disobeyed the US and sought rapprochement with the communists was assassinated by CIA operatives in the spring of 1963. As much as I dislike Nehru, what he did at the time was the right thing. India would have become a mess had the US got involved in any significant way and would have lost its freedom. Getting involved in the cold war would have been wrong altogether.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 26 Jan 2016 11:23

+1 Another flagrant one was the coup against Iranian govt of Mossagdeh.

member_24684 · Post by **member_24684** » 27 Jan 2016 07:43

.

here is a snap from Bruce book, about the time line of events ..! oh the first line of promise to USSR

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 27 Jan 2016 08:15

^^^Interesting. I did not know that the Russians were informed by the Chinese about their invasion. So much for our Russia bhakts on this forum.
I think I'll get the Kindle edition.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 27 Jan 2016 08:32

yayavar wrote:+1 Another flagrant one was the coup against Iranian govt of Mossagdeh.

The overthrow of Mossagdeh and installation of Mohammad Pahlavi was orchestrated by none other than Winston Churchill in 1953 who convinced Eisenhower to do it. Truman was a straight forward fellow who didn't like Nehru, but he wasn't a back stabber. Truman setup ARAMCO with KSA where American oil companies would extract the oil and divide profits 50-50 between them and KSA. A fair and equitable deal, but Churchill was incensed that Truman could make such a deal and feared it would cause a loss to British oil companies in the region. BP, Shell Oil and others were prominent in Iran at the time and Iran was threatening to nationalize the oil fields. Churchill was still dreaming of empire, but Truman would have nothing to do with a coup in Iran. In January 1953 Eisenhower came in to office who was a Churchill confidant from WWII. Operation Ajax was soon launched that summer. The coup in Iran was made possible due to the Iranian military's closeness with the US and UK.

If the Indian military was a close to the US from 1962 onwards, history would have been very different. Instead of civilian oversight, the military would have been a defacto branch of government much like seen in other authoritarian governments around the world supported by the US. Much like Pakistan. One should never hate their enemy more than valuing one's principles.

member_29325 · Post by **member_29325** » 27 Jan 2016 08:40

Looks like a busy 4 months of international conflict in 1962 -- Russia's shooting war with US coinciding with China's invasion of India. Seems to demonstrate the "you are on your own when your back is to the wall" principle when it comes to nations defending themselves. India was obviously ill-prepared given how panic letters for supplying weapons were being sent to US and UK well after the war started. At least, readiness is better nowadays, even if dependency on foreign hardware persists.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 27 Jan 2016 09:14

China always expands its influence in times of world trouble while Indians try to nice boys. With crude oil down and Middle East wars raging, we should recommence nuclear testing. It will get us out of useless CBM military imports and costly nuclear reactors due to sanctions.

member_29294 · Post by **member_29294** » 27 Jan 2016 09:30

vera_k wrote:
ramana wrote:Wonder what he is being rewarded for by NaMo.
Visa to Modi. It was in the press in 2014.

Of course it was in the press, the real truth is that he is being award for brokering the Indo-US nuclear deal. The vast majority of the press is owned by the left-wing establishment and is willing to use any means to get their political masters into office. Because if you weren't, then over the past 70 years you would have already been blacklisted by the Congress controlled government and your subsidies revoked and journalists arrested.

PM Modi doesn't seem to want to play this game, however. Former PM Vajpayee didn't want to either, and it didn't turn out well either. I feel like this is a mistake, if there is any country desperately in need of a 'cultural revolution' it is India. My only hope is that BJP is simply waiting for the key GST bill to pass after April when RS seats change. Then they will start arresting the corrupt members in the media and political parties who were involved with the Scams.

Nikhil T wrote:Fascinating insights from Bruce Reidel's new book on Kennedy and Sino-Indian war 1962. Posting in full:

While some of it might be biased towards US, must read how
1. US would've helped India much earlier and strongly, had it not been Nehru's arrogance towards Kennedy

2. India was close to getting US military aid worth ~4B in today's money but the deal was jinxed.

3. Pak was warned not to intervene in the war

4. 10,000 US troops were airlifted to India and a CBG was deployed off Kolkata

1 might have some truth to it. Nehru was an egotistical asshole who alienated everyone who refused to worship him. He had an inferiority complex to Gandhi and others like Patel and Bose whom he felt overshadowed him. The effects of his stupid policies are costing India even today. If only India could have gotten a real leader like Patel, things would have been much different. There would be no Kashmir dispute, GDP would be much higher, there would be much less corruption, etc.

2 is solely the fault of Nehru yet again. Could have that and so many more favorable deals much sooner. Could have even lobbied for India to join the UNSC if he had been savy enough. Was a perfect opportunity, there was the PRC/ROC dispute, and India could have positioned their entry as a package deal for PRC being recognized over ROC. Instead Nehru screwed it up and gave assent without any concessions. Now PRC will veto India's entry for the foreseeable future.

3 is perfectly believable.

4 is complete bullshit. If 10k troops were airlifted, then we would have heard about it already. 10k people cannot keep their mouths shut, and thousands more must have seen them.

Mort Walker wrote:
Be careful for what people wish for. The US had a terrible record in supporting democracy in Central-South America and east Asia. South Vietnam president Diem who disobeyed the US and sought rapprochement with the communists was assassinated by CIA operatives in the spring of 1963. As much as I dislike Nehru, what he did at the time was the right thing. India would have become a mess had the US got involved in any significant way and would have lost its freedom. Getting involved in the cold war would have been wrong altogether.

This is not true at all. CIA actually warned Diem in advance to evacuate the capital. But he refused to move because he knew that if he was seen fleeing from the capital, then his position as PM would be over. What the CIA had done was help him rig the elections so that he could be a USA puppet, which inevitably lead to his assassination.

Nehru's big mistake wasn't yielding to US, I agree that would have been a disastrous decision. His mistake was his misplaced sense of idealism that cost Kashmir and several books worth of other missed opportunities because he refused to properly play the game of international politics or develop a strong military. Patel would have secured Kashmir and then leveraged US paranoia about Domino Theory to extract enormously beneficial trade deals and military aid from the West without actually joining them. Had he been in power over Nehru, things would have been much different. It is hard to imagine a worse leader than Nehru, because he wasn't just satisfied with failing India in his own lifetime, he gave us his cursed family so that he could do it again.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 27 Jan 2016 10:27

^^^If you talk to any Vietnamese who were around at that time, they will insist that the US was involved in President (he was PM earlier) Diem's assassination directly or indirectly. The South Vietnamese felt there could have been a potential truce with Diem in charge.
See: 1963 South Vietnamese coup

As I said, I'm not a fan of Nehru. My reference was to Nehru's dealing with US during and after the Chinese invasion of India in 1962. Even then, JFK didn't trust Nehru and felt he was too interested in Jackie (who was in her early 30s and quite attractive at the time). I agree Kashmir was a mess he made. Even after that time India had a chance with LBS as PM. Nehru did a lot of stupid things at the time such as getting India to sign the Partial Test Ban Treaty (PTBT) above ground testing ban in 1963. PRC was not a signatory to that treaty.

4 is complete bullshit. If 10k troops were airlifted, then we would have heard about it already. 10k people cannot keep their mouths shut, and thousands more must have seen them.

There were US military advisors, but not 10K troops. I personally knew a USAF C-130 technician who was deployed to India in 1962.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 27 Jan 2016 11:45

Eisenhower commented on who he had seen too much war, and then went about creating it all over the world.

On Mossagdeh it was indeed the British who instigated the Americans to support the coup but it was purely American operation (Kermit Roosevelt -grandson of T Roosevelt, was the lead CIA operator).

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 27 Jan 2016 18:19

Gyan wrote:China always expands its influence in times of world trouble while Indians try to nice boys. With crude oil down and Middle East wars raging, we should recommence nuclear testing. It will get us out of useless CBM military imports and costly nuclear reactors due to sanctions.

Better time might be when China invades Taiwan. In the foreign policy circles - as per the podcasts I listen to - there seems to be a growing consensus that China will do this to divide attention from internal troubles brought about by their own stupid economic policies.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 27 Jan 2016 21:54

Just downloaded Riedel's book. Nehru asked JFK in two letters by 19 Nov 1962 for:

1. Two squadrons of B-47 bombers and training for Indian pilots and technicians to operate the B-47s.
2. First letter asked for a minimum of 12 squadrons of supersonic all weather fighters, with 24 a/c in each squadron, and radar stations.
3. Transport aircraft and US fighter pilots to engage the PLA air force. The IAF would conduct the ground attack on PLA troops and supply lines.
4. The 2nd letter asked for 350 combat aircraft and crews.

Apparently these letters were in the JFK library, but heavily redacted at the request of the GoI and it wasn't until 2010 the library made the original letters available in full. On 20 Nov 1962, the Chinese abruptly declared a cease fire and withdrew. From the timing it appears the Chinese were working hand-in-hand with the USSR (India's all-weather ally).

member_29325 · Post by **member_29325** » 27 Jan 2016 22:33

Not that I would put any credibility on US scholars much, esp. when it comes to India -- most of these people have an axe to grind and a selective world view, even if they have some legitimate information/opinions to share.

Nehru's "non alignment" was utterly hollow, like the man himself -- by being non-aligned and also incompetent in strengthening India's own defence at the same time, he put himself in a place where he had to go beg for arms to fight the chinese when conflict broke out. I doubt if the arms by themselves would have helped India, if the army and soldiers were not kept in a state of preparedness. Non alignment allowed India to not put Indian lives in other people's wars, but that also meant lack of allies to provide support during times of conflict...but it got fixed to a certain extent given how Pakis were handed their butts on a plate in 1965.

What is even more funny is the likes of Pratap Bhanu Mehta and Sunil Khilnani and Srinath Raghava and other self-proclaimed strategerists backed by the delhi babucracy advocating India do more of the same in this century too. KS Bajpai has some good criticism of this foolish line of thinking.

link

Thankfully, this govt. is playing realpolitik by aligning with everyone selectively but ultimately working towards not having to depend on so-called allies for self-defence...the way it should be.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 27 Jan 2016 23:04

The interesting thing is that with a Non Con-gress government at the center, all sorts of CON-gress foolhardiness, and backstabbing has come to fore.
Nehru's letters, Netaji's files being unclassified.

So it turns out that:
1. Congress was saying one thing, and doing quite the other
2. Congress leaders were mini-tinpot dictators
3. USSR, maybe was not quite as friendly as everyone thought or thinks, and when $hit hit the fan, JLN turned to the US for help!

All these are sort of rehabilitating the US and starting to demonize the Roosis here. Mind you, if netajis files somehow indicate that he was held by the Russians in Siberia, things will be in a churn.

member_29325 · Post by **member_29325** » 27 Jan 2016 23:12

The late Shri K. Subramanyam, Indian strategist guru also revealed how Nehru sent an SOS to the US govt. even before he called in people from the Indian armed forces or the Indian defence minister!!! Imagine what would happen if any Indian politician did that today! I mean, after showing the US the finger metaphorically, he then actually thinks he can trust them more than he can trust his own army. I can't even...

Nehru's cleverness lie in making himself some sort of icon that did not match his own capabilities, as a leader of the nation. He was the first guy bring in his daughter into Congress without making her go through the rank-and-file party workers, a tradition continued by all dynasts in Indian politics, and there are quite a few.

one example is how he wrote under the anonymous pseudonym Chanakya (or Kautilya, I forget) criticizing himself, clearly a narcissistic ploy given that quite a few people among his cronies knew what he was upto. He craved to be a legend posthumously, and he succeeded, but Time is a cruel and patient destroyer of myths.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jan 2016 23:13

He wrote his own critiques under pseudonym Chanakya.

member_29325 · Post by **member_29325** » 27 Jan 2016 23:20

Gagan wrote: All these are sort of rehabilitating the US and starting to demonize the Roosis here. Mind you, if netajis files somehow indicate that he was held by the Russians in Siberia, things will be in a churn.

Gaganji, I believe this was stated as such as to why these Netaji files were being kept secret, "as it could destroy friendly relations with a foreign country", which by the way is one of the categories of "freedom of expression" that is restricted in the constitution/IPC. Of course, it is the congress parties family jewels that would get twisted more than any relations with russia, which is purely mercenery and self-interest driven.

Thanks for clarification re chanakya, Ramanaji.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 27 Jan 2016 23:23

http://www.newindianexpress.com/world/I ... 247514.ece
India is Doing Great, No One is Talking About it: Trump

WASHINGTON: Republican presidential front runner Donald Trump has commented on India for the first time after he entered the presidential race, saying that the country is doing great and no one is talking about it."India is doing great," Trump told the CNN in an interview on Monday.After hitting the presidential campaign trial, this is for the first time that Trump has given a glimpse into his thought about India, even as he has been openly critical about many countries like China, Mexico and Japan in many of his speeches."That was the beginning of China. That was the beginning of India, when India -- by the way, India is doing great. Nobody talks about it. And I have big jobs going up in India. But India is doing great," Trump said."But that was the beginning of China. That was the beginning of India. Look at everything I told you. Everything I told you is all right, whether it's Iraq, whether it's Iran, whether it's China, whether it's India, whether it's Japan," Trump said referring to his CNN interview in September 2007."Just look at this country. We have gone from this tremendous power that was respected all over the world to somewhat of a laughing stock," he said."All of a sudden, people are talking about China and India and other places, even from an economic standpoint. America has come down a long way, a long way. The United States has come down a long way, and it's very, very sad. We're not respected, he added.

member_29058 · Post by **member_29058** » 27 Jan 2016 23:50

member_29294 · Post by **member_29294** » 28 Jan 2016 00:06

^ Trump along with any other Republican candidate would be very good for India.

Democrat Clinton gave India sanctions, while Republican Bush gave the Indo-American nuclear deal. Obama refused to take relations any further, while his Secretary of State Hilary actually worsened them. A Republican in the White House would allow for a lot more potential, and a lot more deals like that nuclear one.

I honestly hope Trump wins, would be a huge middle finger to the left-wing political establishment both in India and US.

member_29058 · Post by **member_29058** » 28 Jan 2016 00:45

See how he calls out truth on Saudi/Iraq/saddam/Iran. OTOH see Bush/Clintons/Obama, they sided with Pakis/Squdis knowing very well that they are the murders/terrorists fighting US in Afghanistan and all over middle east