India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

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arun
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby arun » 04 Mar 2016 10:32

Going by the USCRIF comment one would assume that the US did not have visa ban list and let in all.

Meanwhile I loudly applaud the BJP led NDA Government of our Prime Minister denying entry of the Abrahamic dominated, particularly of the Christist variety, USCRIF. Even as I loudly applaud our Governments action I hope that our fellow Indian’s of the Adarsh Liberal variety do not permit their distaste for all things Modi to claim after a variety of convoluted contortions that it is intolerant and anti-constitutional for GOI not to grant visa to USCRIF members.

Denied visa, US religious freedom body says India should have confidence to allow visit
Last edited by arun on 04 Mar 2016 10:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Shreeman » 04 Mar 2016 10:37

Now that the visa has been denied, whats the point of their existence? All is lost, they must disband. Chastise themselves like all good monks would, and repurpose and rededicate themselves for salvation of souls somewhere else (SoSSe-tm).

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby rgosain » 04 Mar 2016 13:14

USCRIF is an arm of the US establishment and a promoter of white, Christian exceptionalism and it needs to apologise and repudiate its actions that led to the ban on Modi, the only person that has been treated in this manner, before it can even consider appyling for a visa. The SD and verma needs to be reminded that the throughout 2014 when Kerry and Obama were chasing after Modi, both USCRIF and the SD were conspicuous on their silence.

Senators who cite USCRIF to point out that Modi was banned from the US, should be encouraged and challenged to get PM Modi banned from the USA under the same legislation, otherwise they should just put up or shut up.

Since Obama came to power, the number of Africa-American churches that have been burnt or vandalised have reached heights not seen during the 60's. It is a very good way to shut Americans up.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Philip » 04 Mar 2016 15:49

3 cheers for the Modi govt.! India can't be dictated to on human rights by the butchers of Iraq,etc. Who the F have given the US the right to determine religious freedom stds worldwide? We don't send our equiv of this bogus NGO to the US to factfind their disgraceful human rights record of how it treats its minorities! Ask any Afro-American.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/m ... eedom-body
India denies visas to US religious freedom body
Setback for relations between Delhi and Washington as a long-planned visit by the agency is scuppered
The US commission on religious freedom said it expected ‘more transparency’ from the Indian government after having its visas cancelled. Photograph: Shailesh Andrade/REUTERS
Friday 4 March 2016

India has denied visas for a delegation from the US government agency charged with monitoring international religious freedom.

The delegation from the US Commission on International Religious Freedom had been scheduled to leave for India on Friday for a long-planned visit with the support of the US state department and the US embassy in New Delhi, but India had failed to issue the necessary visas, the commission said.

“We are deeply disappointed by the Indian government’s denial, in effect, of these visas,” USCIRF chairman Robert George said in a statement.

“As a pluralistic, non-sectarian, and democratic state, and a close partner of the United States, :rotfl: India should have the confidence to allow our visit,” he said.

George said USCIRF had been able to travel to many countries, including those among the worst offenders of religious freedom, including Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Vietnam, China, and Myanmar.

“One would expect that the Indian government would allow for more transparency than have these nations, and would welcome the opportunity to convey its views directly to USCIRF.“

The Indian embassy in Washington did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

Last year, despite a much-heralded fresh start in US-India ties under Indian prime minister Narendra Modi, the United States ran into problems arranging visits by the head of its office to combat human trafficking and its special envoy for gay rights.

A state department official referred queries on the visa issue to the Indian government, but highlighted remarks by president Barack Obama on a visit to Delhi last year, in which he made a plea for freedom of religion in a country with a history of strife between Hindus and minorities.

In its 2015 report, the bipartisan USCIRF said incidents of religiously motivated and communal violence had reportedly increased for three consecutive years.

It said that despite its status as a pluralistic, secular democracy, India had long struggled to protect minority religious communities or provide justice when crimes occur, creating a climate of impunity.

Non-governmental organisations and religious leaders, including from the Muslim, Christian, and Sikh communities, attributed the initial increase in violence to religiously divisive campaigning in advance of the country’s 2014 general election won by Modi.

The report said that since the election, religious minorities had been subject to derogatory comments by politicians linked to Modi’s Bharatiya Janata Party and numerous violent attacks and forced conversions by Hindu nationalist groups.

U.S. law allows for imposition of sanctions on countries the commission terms “of particular concern,” but the USCIRF’s recommendations are not binding and these are not automatically imposed.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Austin » 04 Mar 2016 19:59

Parrikar rules out joint patrolling with the US in Asia Pacific
NEW DELHI: India on Friday ruled out the possibility of undertaking joint naval patrolling or hopping on board a quadrilateral security dialogue in the Asia Pacific region, which has been proposed by the US as a counter to China's aggressive behaviour in the South China Sea and elsewhere.

"Till now, India has never participated in joint patrolling. We do participate in joint exercises. So, the question of joint patrolling at this stage does not arise," said defence minister Manohar Parrikar.


India, for instance, will be undertaking the Malabar naval exercise with the US and Japan, off the Japanese coast in the Pacific, in June-July.

This comes three days after the visiting US Pacific command chief admiral Harry Harris pitched for a quadrilateral security dialogue among India, Japan, Australia and the US, even as he hoped that joint patrolling would materialise in the Asia-Pacific region in "the not too distant future", as was reported by TOI.

India has for long positioned itself as "a neutral player" in the ongoing geopolitical jostling between the US and China, especially in the South China Sea where the latter is locked in bitter territorial disputes with its neighbours.

"I am not responding to what the US admiral has said. Our viewpoint will come to you if we at all consider any such thing from our side,"
said Parrikar.


Asked whether India was going to ink the nearly-finalised Logistics Support Agreement (LSA) when US defence secretary Ash Carter comes visiting India next month, Parrikar said the government would take all decisions in the interest of the country.

"It has to benefit the nation on various counts. We definitely would say that our government is very active on almost everything. We don't like to unnecessarily delay things. So, we definitely do paper work, discussions are going on many things," he said.



The US has been pushing the bilateral "foundational agreements" like the LSA, the Communication Interoperability and Security Memorandum Agreement (CISMOA) and the Basic Exchange and Cooperation Agreement for Geo-Spatial Cooperation (BECA) for over a decade now.

Though the previous UPA regime had stonewalled them, the NDA government feels the LSA is "relatively easier to ink", while more clarifications and discussions are needed on the CISMOA and BECA, as was reported by TOI.


Modelled on the Acquisition and Cross-Servicing Agreements the US has inked with scores of countries, the LSA envisages the two militaries providing logistic support, refuelling and berthing facilities for each other's warships and aircraft on a barter or an equal-value exchange basis.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby arun » 04 Mar 2016 21:33

Michael Rubin, Resident Scholar at the American Enterprises Institute (AEI) points out that at the Raisina Dialogue in New Delhi, Adm. Harry B. Harris, Jr., the commander of US Pacific Command, “avoided the question with some blanket language about how US policy isn’t a zero sum game, rather than explain or defend the Obama administration’s decision to sell Pakistan advanced fighter jets.”. He then goes on to say that “The simple fact is that Pakistan doesn’t need F-16s to counter terrorism; it needs F-16s to mount attacks against India.”

Read it all;

Cancel F-16 sale to Pakistan

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby svenkat » 04 Mar 2016 22:15

http://linkis.com/blogspot.com/wsbfD

This letter is insignificant in the big picture,still ....

Dear Lloyd Doggett,

You have been my treasured Congressman for almost 30 years. Even when my 10th district got Tom-De-Laid, my hOMe was luckily in that tiny strip called Windsor Park, and I got to keep you as my representative. Btw, your beautiful, brilliant daughter Lisa was my beloved doctor for over a decade. {Hi! Lisa!} For years, I used to tell Lisa that you were the ONLY elected official in DC who represented my points of view.

You may remember participating in the International Day Without Violence held in Austin on April 4th for several years in the late nineties. Professor Les Kurtz and I conceived that citywide, international event, in which you marched in our parade, spoke at the capital, and kindly photographed with my two sons. I gave you a t-shirt with people holding hands in a circle around the world: The Day Without Violence.

Introductions aside Mr. Doggett, there is an issue of great international interest, and also, considering the high number of Indian-Americans living in Texas, of domestic importance, too. For me personally, as well as professionally, it is of importance since I have a PhD from UT Austin with a specialization on education in the Indian Subcontinent. I am very close to the matter because I am currently residing in India, writing a book. Luckily, my two sons, who are also big Lloyd Doggett supporters, are living in my house on Trafalgar Drive.

Recently a group of US Congressmen sent a letter to Narendra Modi, the Prime Minister of India. In my opinion, the letter had a sanctimonious tone, chastising Mr. Modi for presumed mistreatment of minorities. Responding to this letter could serve as an important moment in Indo-US mutual understanding.
See the letter from the US Congressmen:
http://www.rediff.com/news/report/ensur ... 160227.htm

While you are pondering this and hopefully contemplating a more internationally appropriate rejoinder, I want to point out a few important aspects to better understand trends and subtleties of India’s popular media as well as the prevalent academic approach to Hinduism. I think the best comparison that can be made is that the mainstream media in India is to the BJP, what FOX News is to the Democratic Party in the USA. There are some politicians in the opposition who are so against Modi, that they are willing to harm the nation to make him seem to fail… sound familiar? (Re: Obama and the Republic controlled congress?)

Additionally, another subtle background quality that colors India’s internal politics, is that for over sixty years in post independent India, virtually all heads of all departments and agencies were selected from intellectuals following in the footsteps of Nehru’s brand of socialist anti-majoritarianism. Because these early leaders were leaning towards Communism, there was an official shunning of religion, as well as a studied fear of nationalism and patriotism. Many patriotic Hindu citizens did not follow these dominate Marxis-influenced paradigms and were thus labeled Right Wing by those Leftists who occupied chairs in academic and governmental bodies. The word “Saffronization” is now being thrown around as the new form of “Black-Balling” as was practiced by the House on Un-American Activities. Saffron, the ochre or orange color of the flags often flown on top of Hindu temples, has become anthropomorphicized as the threatening ‘Other”. Saffron is the new black!

The words religion and nationalism bring us to one of the assumptions made by the US Congressmen, about the RSS, a national service organization that decades ago helped Narendra Modi get an education, and thereby rise from working at his father’s makeshift tea stall near a railroad station, to becoming Prime Minister of India. It is too complicated to delve very deeply here, but suffice it to say, the RSS is very controversial.
I can only compare the twisted understanding of the meaning and purpose of the RSS with the wrong understanding of the original meaning and purpose of the Black Panthers, who came into being to protect black neighborhoods and feed school going children regular meals. The media hype and hoopla concerning their more militant views about discrimination and injustice, have forever colored the public perception, and their greater success story is unknown. See: http://www.civilrightsteaching.org/Hand ... andout.pdf,
and http://spartacus-educational.com/USApantherB.htm

Similarly the RSS has its verbose and convincing distracters. There is a media-savvy core group of intellectuals and writers who passionately hate all things connected with Hindu-Nationalism. Here we go again, with those two evils: Religion and Nationalism! Regardless of the spin of the paparazzi the RSS is first to respond to national disasters, such as tsunamis and earthquakes, additionally they support thousands of small schools in remote areas. Certainly more like the Boy Scouts or the Red Cross than the Taliban!

A week after the letter from the US Congressmen was sent to Modi, I read a letter from a 38 year old Indian citizen, addressed to the US Congressmen. While reading the letter from Mayuresh Didolkar I was reminded of all the ways that India actually has a better track record upholding and protecting the rights of minorities than does the USA. See Mayur’s rebuttal letter at: http://indiafacts.org/dear-american-lawmakers/

It was Jesus Christ who said, "Take the log out of your own eye, before you take the speck out of your neighbor's eye."

As I compared our two countries, asking whether India passes the “American standard” of human rights and minority rights I immediately thought of America’s huge issue regarding prisons, some of which are for profit prisons, with little desire to prevent recidivism! The US government has a larger percentage of their citizens in prison than does any other country in the world, even China that has no 'Bill of Rights". Shamefully, the prison population is about 60% African-American whereas African-Americans only represent about 12% of the general population. That’s a discrepancy of 48%, almost 50% higher than the norm.

To review the statistics, only12–13% of the American population is African-American, but they make up 60% of the almost 2.1 million male inmates in jail or prison. African-Americans constitute nearly 1 million of the total 2.3 million incarcerated population in the USA. African-Americans have nearly six times the incarceration rate of whites.
One of every three black American males born today can expect to go to prison in his lifetime. People killed by US police officers in 2015 shows rate of death for young black men was five times higher than white men of the same age. See:
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015 ... -black-men

Looking at similar statistics in India shows a similar trend but a greatly reduced rate of discrepancy:
Three communities in India- Muslims, Dalits, and Adivasis add up to about 39% of the population. Their share of prisoners is at 53%, a combined 14% difference. Far cry from the USA at almost 50% difference between demographic percentage in the general population and % of prisoners.

In 2013, India had 4.2 lakh (420,000) people in prison. Nearly 20% of them were Muslims although the share of Muslims in India's population is about 13%. Dalits make up 22% of prisoners, almost one in four. Their proportion in the population is about 17%. While Adivasis (Tribals) make up 11% of prisoners, their share in the general population is 9%. So the discrepancy is thus: 7%, 5%, and 2% greater representation of the three minority groups in prison than in general population. An even further cry from the similarly derived prisoner to minority statistics in the USA.

As in the USA, as in India as well, these minority communities do not necessarily commit more crimes. But rather they are often economically and socially under-privileged and therefore unable to fight costly cases or often even pay for bail. Additionally, in the past two decades due to the unfortunate increased jihadi influence in the Muslim world, the percentage of Muslims in custody has gone up slightly.

I was also reminded of government programs to help raise traditionally downtrodden groups up the social ladder. In this capacity is reflected by Affirmative Action in the USA compared to Reservations Policies in India. After the Civil Right Bills in the mid sixties, during the seventies there were court-led efforts to correct the disparity in hiring that had made the police and fire departments virtually all white. Some progress was made, but it wasn't long before Affirmative Action was watered down and discontinued. Cases from the UT School of Law come to mind.

On the other hand, India has a system that reserves jobs and educational opportunities to all sorts of minorities, religious, linguistic, caste-based groups, etc. India continues to increase that allocated percentage regularly. Americans will not be able to believe this, but Indian laws actually discriminate against the majority Hindu community. This can be seen in Articles 25-30 of the Indian Constitution, minority communities have rights that the Hindu majority community does not. Many forward thinking people in contemporary India hope to repeal these amendments, which would not deprive any rights from any minority groups, but just give those same rights to Hindus as well. In the implementation of the disastrous Right To Education (RTE) Act, un-secular, anti-majoritarian implementation methodology is playing out in a destructive manner due to the legal loopholes allowed to the minority religious communities, rights and privileges that are not granted to Hindus.

The most profound difference between the attitude of elected and/or politically appointed officials in India as compared to the USA, can be highlighted by the efforts of some Republican politicians to prevent or obstruct minority citizens from voting, by closing down polling places in minority communities. This restrictive attitude can be compared to India's heroic efforts to bring secure voting machines to small villages even by ox cart if necessary to be sure that each and very citizen has an opportunity to vote.

So now, Mr. Doggett, could you please educate your colleagues and level the playing field. Then equipped with knowledge, let the US Congressmen talk to India about democracy and human rights as equals!

My beautiful scholarly mother didn’t like sanctimoniousness either... uniformed, uneducated sanctimoniousness!!

Thank you, Lloyd Doggett for reading this long letter.

Below please find a little info about some of the accusations that are regularly lobbed at Mr. Modi.

In 2002, six weeks after Modi assumed the position of Chief Minister in the state of Gujarat, sectarian violence broke out on a very large scale, a reaction to the torching of a passenger car full of Hindu pilgrims at the train station at Godra in Gujarat.

There were efforts on the part of activists such as Teesta Setalvad to pin the rioting on Modi. She initiated several law cases but ultimately she was charged with bribing witnesses, tampering with evidence and misusing funds meant to pin crimes on Modi. But Modi was found not guilty by numerous tribunals and courts. See these two excellent essays by my colleague, Nicole Elfi: http://www.jaia-bharati.org/nicole-elfi ... ra-ang.htm, and
https://bharatabharati.wordpress.com/20 ... cole-elfi/

In 2005, Narendra Modi, then the governor or Chief Minister of the large Indian state of Gujarat, was denied a tourist visa to come to the USA to deliver a talk to his fellow Gujaratis (NRIs living in the USA). In that capacity, Teesta Setalvad, Arundhati Roy, and Angana Chatterji rallied to gather forces to block Modi’s visit in 2005.
See Angana Chatterji’s claiming her centrality to Modi’s visa denial: http://www.countercurrents.org/guj-angana220305.htm
Please note Angana Chatterji was dismissed from her university teaching/research position due to coercive activism strategies.

My mentor and old friend Lloyd Doggett, beware, there is a never-ending barrage of ‘hate mail” type propaganda levied at Narendra Moti, the RSS, the BJP, and Hindu Nationalists in general. I urge you to see past that, into the soul of India’s future. I remember in 1997 when I was working with your office while planning the Day Without Violence, I told two of your assistants that the BJP was going to win the next election, and would be viable political force in India. I mentioned this to your assistants because during one of my research projects in 1996, an annotated survey of local supporters of the BJP in Texas, I was told that a few representatives from the BJP had come to Austin to meet with government officials but the rather influential faculty in the Department of South Asian Studies discouraged meeting with them. This brings us to a whole other topic of the strange and unexpected anti-Hindu bias often employed in the teaching about Hinduism. I know it sounds weird, but I have been investigating this strange phenomenon and it is identifiable, see: “The Last Tasty Morsel of Official Bias in the American Melting Pot: Academic Hinduphobia” http://yvetterosser.com/2015/01/22/the- ... nduphobia/ There are many other objective scholars who are writing about this topic, such as Vamsee Juluri and Rajiv Malhotra.

Thank you very much.
All the best,

Yvette Rosser

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby sanjaykumar » 04 Mar 2016 22:59

Ms Rosser knows more about India than I do and is certainly happy to offer corrective narratives.


I am just surprised American officials have such a scotoma that they foolishly put the US in a position of derision.

For a society which counts extraordinarily gifted people in governement, they have a way of being somewhat obtuse wrt India.

A further example is this busines of joint patrols in the South China Sea- Admiral Harris seems not to have been briefed very well on India's foreign policy fundamentals, to put it mildly.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Suraj » 04 Mar 2016 23:55

India files WTO trade dispute against U.S. over temporary work visas
India has filed a complaint against the United States over non-immigrant temporary working visas, the World Trade Organization (WTO) said on Friday.

India has disputed measures imposing increased fees on certain categories of temporary work visas for the United States and limits on their numbers, the WTO said in a statement.

India said these measures appear inconsistent with commitments that the United States has made by treating persons from India working in sectors such as computer services in the United States less favourably than U.S. persons, it added.

The United States had 10 days to respond to the request, which will go to the Dispute Settlement Body if India and the United States cannot come to a satisfactory agreement.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby CRamS » 05 Mar 2016 00:26

sanjaykumar wrote:Ms Rosser knows more about India than I do and is certainly happy to offer corrective narratives.


I am just surprised American officials have such a scotoma that they foolishly put the US in a position of derision.

For a society which counts extraordinarily gifted people in governement, they have a way of being somewhat obtuse wrt India.

A further example is this busines of joint patrols in the South China Sea- Admiral Harris seems not to have been briefed very well on India's foreign policy fundamentals, to put it mildly.


Reason for this is that overall, India does not matter much to US beyond a certain point, nor at the civilizational/cultural level, there is any affinity. So, there is no need beyond achieving immediate US goals wrt India and the region, to study India at the level of detail Ms. Rosser does. There is nothing US is not getting now that it needs to by not studying India in detail and more truthfully and honestly.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby member_22733 » 05 Mar 2016 00:29

They can afford not to care. For now.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby sanjaykumar » 05 Mar 2016 01:21

So, there is no need beyond achieving immediate US goals wrt India and the region, to study India at the level of detail Ms. Rosser does.


That is actually not the case. A few years ago there was a cache of documents available from IIRC the consulate in Chennai (?Wikileaks may have it). They are very thorough and very sophisticated in their data trawling and analysis.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby SaiK » 05 Mar 2016 03:19

I like the Indo-US face off via WTO. :D

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Manny » 05 Mar 2016 03:33

THE US GOVERNMENT AND THE USCIRF

http://www.desicontrarian.com/the-us-go ... he-uscirf/

India denies Visa for USCIRF members... GOOD JOB INDIA!
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/05/world ... .html?_r=0


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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Prem » 06 Mar 2016 02:38

https://www.indianembassy.org/press_detail.php?nid=2338
Press Release - In response to a media query on visa to USCIRF visit


Washington DC
March 4, 2016
We have seen the Press Release made by the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom (USCIRF) on March 3, 2016 titled "India: USCIRF Not Issued Visas".
There is no change in the policy of the Government of India with respect to such visits. India is a vibrant pluralistic society founded on strong democratic principles. The Indian Constitution guarantees fundamental rights to all its citizens including the right to freedom of religion. We do not see the locus standi of a foreign entity like USCIRF to pass its judgment and comment on the state of Indian citizens' constitutionally protected rights.
We look forward to continuing working with the United States Government for sharing of experience and best practice on all issues of mutual interest under the established bilateral mechanisms like the India-United States Global Issues Forum.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Viv S » 06 Mar 2016 02:59

IIRC their last visa request was also denied. In 2009, I think.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby member_29058 » 06 Mar 2016 16:14

http://aleteia.org/2015/08/31/congress- ... s-freedom/
August 31, 2015

The United States Commission on International Religious Freedom, which has documented many abuses against Christians and other faith populations around the world, could be disbanded in a month if Congress does not act soon to extend its mandate.

And if it does survive, many fear, the commission could be so changed as to lose much of its effectiveness.

An Aug. 24 letter from the International Religious Freedom Roundtable, signed by almost 100 experts, was sent to the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in support of S. 1798, one version of a reauthorization bill.

“While there is very little we agree on theologically, or politically, we all agree on the importance of international religious freedom,” the letter said. “It strengthens cultures and provides the foundation for stable democracies and their components, including civil society, economic growth, and social harmony. As such, it is also the ultimate counter-terrorism weapon, pre-emptively undermining religious extremism.”

World magazine reported that S. 1798, introduced in July by Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.), would “bolster USCIRF operations, allow it to designate non-state actors like ISIS and Boko Haram ‘countries of particular concern,’ and mandate training for all foreign service officers.”

Sen. Richard Durbin, (D-Ill.) introduced a competing bill, S. 1860, the Further Independence of Religion for Security and Tolerance Freedom Act of 2015, also in July. But the letter signers believe S. 1798 is “better suited to advance freedom of religion or belief.

“While S. 1860 includes significant refugee-related provisions that many of us support, some of these provisions are part of an ongoing debate which is unlikely to be resolved prior to the rapidly-approaching expiration of USCIRF’s current authorization,” the letter said. “As such, we believe consideration of such provisions should be delinked from the current reauthorization process. Additionally, many of the USCIRF-related provisions in S. 1860 are deeply concerning and could potentially undermine USCIRF’s vital work.”

World reported that S. 1860 would keep USCIRF going for another two years and would significantly alter the commission, subjecting it to the Freedom of Information Act, removing the requirement of a bipartisan commission vote for staffing decisions, rolling back commissioners’ information-gathering ability, and makiing USCIRF’s annual report a response to the State Department’s international religious freedom report—killing its advisory role.

“Many of the USCIRF-related provisions in S. 1860 are deeply concerning and could potentially undermine USCIRF’s vital work,” the religious freedom advocates wrote.

USCIRF was born as part of the 1998 International Religious Freedom Act.


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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Philip » 07 Mar 2016 13:13

"International freedom","democracy","human rights",blah,blah,blah ad infinitum.These are the devices which the West/US uses to invade and destroy other nations and cultures which often are superior to its own warmongering DNA. The white man destroyed the native American Indian's eco-sensitive civilisation,coralling him in "reservations" which were nothing but open prisons where they were turned into alcoholics,the Spanish conquistadors destroyed almost the entire S.American native civilisations and scientific knowledge and brought disease/smallpox,etc. which wiped out native tribes.

The same western WASPish pestilence holds sway in the MEast,where the "white man's burden" as Kipling so splendidly put it,of "civilising" the heathens has yet to be fulfilled,now awaits the "cleansing" medicine of B-52 bombers,finally being used to attack ISIS,yet again a Western/Saudi Frankenstein creation (where a French president secretly awards the Saudi warmonger prince his nation's highest award!) that has gone out of control.
Francois Hollande 'quietly' awards France's highest honour to visiting Saudi Crown Prince
Just two months ago France was among the most vocal in condemning Saudi Arabia's New Year's mass executions


Like star-fated Mercutio,the world needs to scream out at these perpetual warmongers,
"a plague on both your houses!"

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby rgosain » 07 Mar 2016 14:18

Philip wrote:"International freedom","democracy","human rights",blah,blah,blah ad infinitum.These are the devices which the West/US uses to invade and destroy other nations and cultures which often are superior to its own warmongering DNA. The white man destroyed the native American Indian's eco-sensitive civilisation,coralling him in "reservations" which were nothing but open prisons where they were turned into alcoholics,the Spanish conquistadors destroyed almost the entire S.American native civilisations and scientific knowledge and brought disease/smallpox,etc. which wiped out native tribes.

The same western WASPish pestilence holds sway in the MEast,where the "white man's burden" as Kipling so splendidly put it,of "civilising" the heathens has yet to be fulfilled,now awaits the "cleansing" medicine of B-52 bombers,finally being used to attack ISIS,yet again a Western/Saudi Frankenstein creation (where a French president secretly awards the Saudi warmonger prince his nation's highest award!) that has gone out of control.
Francois Hollande 'quietly' awards France's highest honour to visiting Saudi Crown Prince
Just two months ago France was among the most vocal in condemning Saudi Arabia's New Year's mass executions


Like star-fated Mercutio,the world needs to scream out at these perpetual warmongers,
"a plague on both your houses!"


Philip, this organisation is an arm of the state department - it doesn't even bother to hide its funding or auditing streams. They even tried to piggy-back on the recent SD-commerce vistit to ND. In 2014, trying to invite Modi to the US, after Modi's election victory, Kerry and Obama tried to blame the Bush administration for the ban on Modi. If you recall in 2014, not a squeak was heard from the SD-USicrf regarding religion in India, as the US was trying to cozy up with the new government. Verma should be challenged to reimpose the ban on the PM if he believes this nonsense

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Philip » 08 Mar 2016 11:20

Tx RG.Verma is a mere flunkey of the establishment/SD,colour specifically chosen to woo the "natives"!
This insidious NGO approach by the US in particular is to find as many "faults" in non-Waspish "heathen" states so that new guidelines/doctrine can be imposed upon them to make them "civilised".This coming from the funtainhead of global warmongering,illegal regime change,drone warfare,rendition,collateral damage,etc.,etc. is preposterous and insulting. Verma should've been summoned and the "Good Book:" quoted about "removing the stye from one's own eye first",before attempting to remove it from others!

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby SSridhar » 08 Mar 2016 16:38

Talking to India on religious freedom, says U.S - The Hindu
The United States on Monday expressed disappointment over India denying visas to members of the United States Commission of International Religious Freedom (USCIRF). A USCIRF team was planning to travel to India on March 4, but India did not process their visa applications.

The Indian Embassy in Washington said that there was no change in India’s policy with respect to such visits and saw no “locus standi of a foreign entity like USCIRF to pass its judgment and comment on the state of Indian citizens’ constitutionally protected rights.”

Visas denied for the seventh year


India has been denying visas to USCIRF for seven years now.

“We’re disappointed by this news,” State Department Spokesman John Kirby said, and added that religious freedom in India has been a “topic of conversation between the two countries.” “It’s not a topic of conversation that we’re afraid to have with our Indian counterparts,” he said.

‘We support the commission’

“We are supportive of the commission and the important role they play in reviewing facts and circumstances of violations of religious freedom around the world. As President Obama himself noted during his visit last year, we support the Government of India’s commitments – commitment to promoting religious freedom and diversity,” {He is trying to be clever-by-half} he said, recalling Mr. Obama’s statement during his visit to India in January 2015.

“Our nations are stronger when every person has the right to practice the faith they choose, or to practice no faith at all, and to do so free of persecution and fear of discrimination,” Mr. Obama had said.

‘We remain engaged in talks’

Asked whether U.S officials have reached out to India after the visa denial, Mr. Kirby said: “We don’t talk about the details of diplomatic conversations, but I can tell you we remain engaged in a number of discussions with the Indian government about this and other issues with respect to religious freedom.” {India should not entertain any discussions on this. Call off the upcoming Ash Carter visit to India. Let us also play tough. Any Indian government which gives into such US bullying and does not appear to act tough will lose its support, the incumbent government being no exception}

Refusing to be drawn into a discussion on the current issues related religious freedom in India, Mr. Kirby said he did not have “a formal policy statement with respect to the state of religious freedom in India right now.”

Why State Department responding now?

When it was pointed out that the U.S. State Department had not responded when visas were denied to the USCIRF commissioners in previous years, Mr. Kirby said: “….the question seems to presuppose that because it’s happened before, we should just not comment on it and we should just be okay with it, and we’re not.”

Responding to India’s position that USCIRF has no locus standi in the issue as religious freedom is enshrined in the Indian Constitution, Mr. Kirby said: “…[b]we want issues like that that are enshrined in a constitution to be upheld, to be observed. {Why?}
And again, we support the work of the commission and what they stand for, and I don’t know how else I can say it. We remain disappointed by the news.” [/b]


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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Gus » 08 Mar 2016 22:48

Philip - verma seems to be a 'return favor' posting. Iirc he was Harry Reid staff.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby rgosain » 08 Mar 2016 23:06

Gus wrote:Philip - verma seems to be a 'return favor' posting. Iirc he was Harry Reid staff.


Gus, last week Verma was stating that the US had to transfer those F16's and the associated avionics and weapons package to Pakistan because it was a legacy project. The next day USIRF had their request denied. This seems to have passed a lot of people by.
The fact is that as long as the SD continues to transfer weapons to Pakistan they should not get an audience for human rights in ND. At the end of this month Obama, hosts Modi in Washington, for the last of the Nuclear security summits. Let's see if we can encourage the SD to cancel Modi's visit to Washington

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Gus » 09 Mar 2016 07:09

Oh I get the usual SD shenanigans. I am just saying that this verma guy is an empty fellow following orders and very lightweight

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby sum » 09 Mar 2016 08:33


Saar, forget Amriki media, look at our own DDM shamelessly toeing the US line( and this is just a "local" Blore based newspaper):
Only tolerant India can face world

he Narendra Modi government’s decision to deny visas to members of a United States government panel that monitors religious rights worldwide shows India in a poor light. This is not the way a country that takes pride in its vibrant democracy and openness should be responding to visa applications of foreigners, even those who may be arrogating themselves the role of guardians of faiths, religious freedom etc. The United States Commission on International Religious Freedom (USCIRF) is a US Congress-mandated panel that scrutinises religious freedoms worldwide and gives independent policy recommendations to the US government. Its reports on the situation in India have not been favourable in the past. Since 2009, India has been listed as a ‘tier 2 country’ i.e. where violations of religious freedom “engaged in or tolerated by the government” are serious. Its 2015 report was particularly scathing in its criticism of the Modi government for its ghar vapsi programmes, attacks on churches and hate campaigns against Muslim minorities. In 2009 too, the government denied visas to USCIRF panel members, which means that the United Progressive Alliance and National Democratic Alliance governments adopted a similar policy towards the USCIRF’s work.

India’s denial of visas to USCIRF panel members is a defensive response. It sends out a signal that we have much to hide. A pluralist country with a secular constitution that promises its citizens, irrespective of their faiths, equality before the law should not have to be timid before the world. That we are defensive on the issue indicates that all is not well on the ground. This is a matter of serious concern. Many secular Indians are calling on the government to protect robustly the right to freedom of religion of all citizens. Sadly, successive governments have failed to do so, resulting in a situation where foreign organisations and individuals, many of whom have little understanding of India’s constitution or culture are now pointing fingers at us and offering gratuitous advice.

The Modi government must act to protect citizens from religious intolerance and violence, not because the USCIRF says so but because the right to freedom of religion is enshrined in the Indian Constitution. It should allow the USCIRF and others to visit this country so that these ‘watchdogs’ can learn a lesson or two from India’s history of providing a safe home to people fleeing religious persecution in other countries. But such lessons will be credible and valuable only if India’s present record on the rights of religious minorities is exemplary. A tolerant India could face the world with confidence.

Have no hope of our DDM ever reforming!

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby habal » 09 Mar 2016 09:41

sum wrote:Saar, forget Amriki media, look at our own DDM shamelessly toeing the US line( and this is just a "local" Blore based newspaper):
Only tolerant India can face world


mmm ... USA faces world with intolerant face everyday.
Israel doesn't seem very tolerant
Saudi Arabia doesn't look tolerant from any angle.
Pakistan, most favored nato ally is not paradigm of tolerance.
Turkey, incarcerates journalists and is in war with minorities 24X7.

buckle up USCIRF, you have so much URGENT work to do and so many countries to save.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby member_22733 » 09 Mar 2016 09:53

sum wrote:Have no hope of our DDM ever reforming!


One of my sisters tried her luck in getting into media (after making it into a certain "prestigious" inst.), and she could not last long as she was (and has always been) a firmly grounded Hindu.

99% of Indian media is DDM. And DDM is filled with filthy cretins from places like JNU. They are 100% lunatic and 100% biased against the "natives". They act exactly as if they are a bunch of colonizers trying to civilize us savages.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Shreeman » 09 Mar 2016 11:08

Here is a thing. And it probably will not be liked. There is a cultural aspect to frequent failures, not being "selected" due to lack of "spot" to corporal punishment and everything in between. No one escapes it. The rich pretend to, but they too aspire to go to EyeEyeTee with an EyeQue of 39 and invariably grow up resentful of evryone and evrything when not able to.

Now this is not specific to mhedia, but any which way you get hold of that little bit of grasp on "the system", you exploit the hell out of it. In mhedia, the "it" is either parts of female anatomy (shirm shirm) or sensationalism. Western mhedia has it too, in ample parts.

Within this context, JNU (and dilli vishvavidyalaya as well) represent the caves of some of the most repressed kids growing up. Now, the general pastime used to be to prepare for EyeYeYes while pretending to do a 3 year course. These days I understand everything from EyeEyeTee to EyeYayYes has entire cities devoted to. Like relijious centers. And then I understand the eggjamInation are more for the show even for merit seats.

So its not simple. The extreme competition created by the artificial scarcity of everything -- items that can be freely reported, to mhedia freedom, to independent mhedia houses not run by crooks, to readership and viewership NOT focussed on ramdev or some such gent -- is several orders of magnitude worse than the moderately enlightened mhedia.

Thus, the screen, stream, or page is their real estate, or "vehicle". Like a ujed vehicle, say with four wheels. May be a car. Thats it. A ujed car. Salesperson.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby chetak » 09 Mar 2016 11:57

sanjaykumar wrote:Ms Rosser knows more about India than I do and is certainly happy to offer corrective narratives.


I am just surprised American officials have such a scotoma that they foolishly put the US in a position of derision.

For a society which counts extraordinarily gifted people in governement, they have a way of being somewhat obtuse wrt India.

A further example is this busines of joint patrols in the South China Sea- Admiral Harris seems not to have been briefed very well on India's foreign policy fundamentals, to put it mildly.


If you think that the admiral arrived in India without a detailed briefing from the SD and the pentagon, you are sadly mistaken.

military careers have been brutally cut short for transgressions much milder than this. The admiral hasn't reached his current position without knowing how to sidestep some landmines or understanding the political implications of his words on foreign soil, especially during an official visit.

If the admiral has made such a statement, it was for the sole benefit of the chinese and judging from the chagrined reaction of the han, the message has hit home, bullseye and all.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby chetak » 09 Mar 2016 12:00

LokeshC wrote:
sum wrote:Have no hope of our DDM ever reforming!


One of my sisters tried her luck in getting into media (after making it into a certain "prestigious" inst.), and she could not last long as she was (and has always been) a firmly grounded Hindu.

99% of Indian media is DDM. And DDM is filled with filthy cretins from places like JNU. They are 100% lunatic and 100% biased against the "natives". They act exactly as if they are a bunch of colonizers trying to civilize us savages.


has anyone noticed the preponderance of "minorities" flooding the DDM, on each and every channel?? effectively edging out the natives??

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Singha » 09 Mar 2016 16:11

HR depts too.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Vayutuvan » 10 Mar 2016 00:27

Phillip: Matthew 7:1-5

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Philip » 10 Mar 2016 10:49

No secret this Yanqui attitude!
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/m ... ed-by-west

Russian hostility 'partly caused by west', claims former US defence head

William Perry says US contempt toward Russia as ‘third-rate power’ after end of Cold War played a big role
Bill Clinton, left, with Vladimir Putin. William Perry, one, of Clinton’s defence secretaries, said that gains in cooperation after the Cold War ‘were initially squandered more as a result of US actions than Russian’. Photograph: Stephen Jaffe/EPA

Julian Borger World affairs editor
Wednesday 9 March 2016
The current level of hostility in US-Russian relations was caused in part by Washington’s contemptuous treatment of Moscow’s security concerns in the aftermath of the cold war, a former US defence secretary has said.

Any analysis of Russia has to consider the effect of Nato expansion
Letters: Those of us present who lived in Russia in the 1990s saw a picture of the past rather than the future

William Perry, who was defence secretary in Bill Clinton’s administration from 1994 to 1997, emphasised that in the past five years it has been Vladimir Putin’s military interventions in Ukraine, Syria and elsewhere that have driven the downward spiral in east-west relations.

But Perry added that during his term in office, cooperation between the two countries’ militaries had improved rapidly just a few years after the fall of the Soviet Union and that these gains were initially squandered more as a result of US than Russian actions.

“In the last few years, most of the blame can be pointed at the actions that Putin has taken. But in the early years I have to say that the United States deserves much of the blame,” Perry said, speaking at a Guardian Live event in London.


Former US defence secretary, William Perry, talking at a Guardian Live event on Tuesday evening

“Our first action that really set us off in a bad direction was when Nato started to expand, bringing in eastern European nations, some of them bordering Russia. At that time we were working closely with Russia and they were beginning to get used to the idea that Nato could be a friend rather than an enemy ... but they were very uncomfortable about having Nato right up on their border and they made a strong appeal for us not to go ahead with that.”

In his memoir, My Journey at the Nuclear Brink, Perry writes that he argued for a slower expansion of Nato so as not to alienate Russia during the initial period of post-Soviet courtship and cooperation. Richard Holbrooke, the US diplomat, led the opposing argument at the time, and was ultimately supported by the vice-president, Al Gore, who argued “we could manage the problems this would create with Russia”.

Perry said the decision reflected a contemptuous attitude among US officials towards the troubled former superpower.

“It wasn’t that we listened to their argument and said he don’t agree with that argument,” he said. “Basically the people I was arguing with when I tried to put the Russian point ... the response that I got was really: ‘Who cares what they think? They’re a third-rate power.’ And of course that point of view got across to the Russians as well. That was when we started sliding down that path.”

Perry considered resigning over the issue “but I concluded that my resignation would be misinterpreted as opposition to Nato membership that I greatly favoured – just not right away”.


He sees the second major misstep by Washington DC as the Bush administration’s decision to deploy a ballistic missile defence system in eastern Europe in the face of determined opposition from Moscow. Perry said: “We rationalised [the system] as being to defend against an Iranian nuclear missile – they don’t have any but that’s another issue. But the Russians said ‘Wait a bit, this weakens our deterrence.’ The issue again wasn’t discussed on the basis of its merits – it was just ‘who cares about what Russia thinks.’ We dismissed it again.”

The Obama administration has since modified the missile defence system in eastern Europe, replacing long-range with medium-range interceptor missiles but that has not mollified Russian objections.

The west’s assurances to Soviet ministers on eastward expansion of Nato
Letters: The Russians believe that they were misled: imagine our reaction if the position were reversed

Perry said he was opposed to such systems on technical grounds. “I think they’re a waste of money. I don’t think they work,” he said. “In fact, when I talked to the Russians I tried to convince them not to worry, they don’t work anyway but they didn’t buy that.”

The third factor that Perry pointed to in the poisoning of US-Russian relations was Washington DC’s support for pro-democracy demonstrators in the “colour revolutions” in former Soviet republics including Georgia and Ukraine. Perry agreed with the ethical reasons for backing such revolutions but noted their severely damaging effect on east-west ties.

“After he came to office, Putin came to believe that the United States had an active and robust programme to overthrow his regime,” the former defence secretary said.


“And from that point on a switch went on in Putin’s mind that said: I’m no longer going to work with the west ... I don’t know the facts behind Putin’s belief that we actually had a programme to foment revolution in Russia but what counts is he believed it.”

Perry described the current tensions between Russia and Nato as having “the potential of becoming very dangerous,” and argued for a radical reduction in nuclear arsenals and in particular the removal of land-based intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs). Over 1,000 ICBMs in the US and Russia remain on hair-trigger alert, on a policy of “launch-on-warning”, meaning US and Russian presidents would have less than half an hour to decide whether to fire them in the event of radar and satellite data showing an incoming missile attack from the other side.



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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby vishvak » 11 Mar 2016 00:32

From More Mollycoddling
In New Delhi, US Ambassador Richard Verma made a spirited defence of the sale, calling it a “legacy announcement”. The most gracious view is of an ambassadorial effort to obfuscate and cloud what the sale forebodes. It was at best an attempt to explain the sale away as an old decision. The ambassador’s statement would have been more credulous if he had instead admitted the sale was part of the continuing US legacy of arming Pakistan. But he hastened to add it would exercise restraint on future supplies. Never mind that US arms supplies to Pakistan gained in strength under the Obama administration, with the Kerry-Lugar Act serving as the umbrella legislation.
..
Yet, the timing was startling, as it came only weeks after the terrorist attack at Pathankot. This alone should have dissuaded the Obama administration to, at least, defer the announcement of the sale.
..
First, the US hasn’t set store by India’s objections that Pakistan’s singular objective is to strengthen itself against India, a reality its own officials concede. As Michèle Flournoy, then US under secretary of defence for policy, testified before the House armed services committee in 2009, Pakistan has “focused most of [its] equipment acquisition on [its] deterrent capacity vis-à-vis other neighbours, particularly India” and not on “counter-emergency.”
..
Second, the US hasn’t hesitated to supply Pakistan with weapons and platforms that have no nexus with the fight against terror. These include the Perry-class Missile Frigate USS McInerney, P-3C Orion maritime aircraft, AMRAAM air-to-air missiles, Harpoon anti-ship missiles, Sidewinder air-to-air missiles and 32 (excluding the new eight) F-16s, more suited to wage war with India. The proposed sale will take Pakistan’s fleet to 84 of these aircraft, far exceeding any requirement to fight terror. This leaves no doubt that America’s professions don’t square with its actions.
..
Fourth, and most importantly, the US has become India’s largest defence supplier. While it gives India access to sophisticated arms, there’s a hidden danger. It’s doubtful India would be able to use its US-origin wares against Pakistan without Washington’s consent. Going by past experience, it would be surprising if it doesn’t impose an embargo on India in a war with Pakistan. Critical spares and ammunition would stifle India’s war-waging capability. If, in its “pivot to Asia” and its fight against terror, Washington considers India’s role important, Delhi should demand an assurance it will do nothing to strengthen the armed forces of a nation whose declared objective is to strengthen itself against India and is a sponsor of terror. It should put Washington on notice that it cannot supply weapons to Pakistan with little relevance to combating terror.
..
With the election of Ronald Reagan, Carter’s policies were reversed. Pakistan became the third country outside Nato to be supplied F-16s. The US even turned a blind eye to Pakistan’s nuclear quest. Reagan certified to the US Congress that Islamabad didn’t “possess a nuclear explosive device”.
..
The unfortunate reality is that Pakistan has been the linchpin of US security strategy in South Asia. Two and a half decades after the Cold War, American mollycoddling of Pakistan continues. .. Washington calling India and the US “natural partners” shouldn’t lull Delhi into complacency.

Selling anti-ship missiles, Orions, air-to-air missiles, F-16 to a terrorist country while threatening sanctions against India in times of war and even cutting off logistics supplies is an indicator that the whole strategic-ally/natural-partner is probably a lemon.

Any threat of sanctions or cutting off logistics is also against argument that trade with US is merely transactional. Such arguments should not 'lull into complacency' as the article states at the end.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby member_29294 » 11 Mar 2016 07:08

Israel remains the only country that has actually benefited from extended US influence.

US is a two-faced nation that will try to weaken and destroy India through any means necessary, just as they have done all throughout the Cold War. F-16 sale to Pakistan shows this.

They were not trustworthy then and they are not trustworthy now.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby habal » 11 Mar 2016 11:05

why can't we supply advanced missiles to Cuba and Venezuela ? Everytime they pull some F-16 out of their hole, this is what we should have done.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Shreeman » 11 Mar 2016 11:22

habal wrote:why can't we supply advanced missiles to Cuba and Venezuela ? Everytime they pull some F-16 out of their hole, this is what we should have done.


You can do better. Not that, but better. Buy venezuelas F16s, upgrade them and gift them to afg and then practice DACT with them in afg after training them. Beat them, every fridin and record and publish the event. No more F16s will be wanted by bakistan.

But no, F16s are like richards. You want one, then first hand over the richard, both testimonials, and sovirginity.

Cuba is now friends with amrika. Veneziela is too far down the drain. But used F16s are cheaper than new L39s (not made anymore) at this point. Why not buy a squad or two second hand just for aggressor training?

ps: cant do the original that because screwdrivergiri. unless you meant ballistic mijjile, which you know is a no no.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby NRao » 11 Mar 2016 19:07



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