India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby member_20292 » 14 Apr 2016 08:11

Bheeshma wrote:These is no choice called USA. You have to work on your own. Period.


Oh Yeah! In a individualistic world where it's every man for himself and a super free-for-all , it is stupid to expect that the US will do us any favours.
It's best to look at the US relationship, transactionally.

What can they give us:- technology in defence and other sectors, preferential access to their market.

What do we need to do in return?

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby ShauryaT » 14 Apr 2016 08:18

ldev wrote:
So I think it is wrong to live in abject fear of "Oh, what will the Russians do if we displease them"? I think the Russians need India as much if not more than what India needs them.
Show me another power that will work with us in our strategic programs and I will concede. As for Russia, it has shown the west the finger and done what it needed to do to protect its interest as they see it. You can well argue that Russia needs the west more but real politic does not work this way. The man (Yeltsin) who sought to put interests of the west over Russia in the belief that, the same is in Russian interest is reviled much today. Yes, India is going to build its own nuke subs - Thanks to a little help from Russia.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Vayutuvan » 14 Apr 2016 08:34

TSJones wrote:some countries such as Panama, ... And please note, it depends upon the country in which the individual or corporation resides that the definition of legality depends upon. ... US individuals must report all sources of income.


TSJ: Thanks for a succinct explanation. That said, while US has the wherewithal to enforce taxation on the residents, India (Russia too I guess) does not have the reach to do the same irrespective of whether there are laws or not. US can (and has)
enforce (enforced) these laws even on Canadian residents who have US citizenship for amounts as low as $5000 (there is a famous case of a teacher who renounced Amerikhan citizenship after paying $20K fines on a $5K income while he was a teacher in the US but married a Canadian woman and moved there).

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Viv S » 14 Apr 2016 08:35

prahaar wrote:Indian Navy has been at the forefront of supporting closer cooperation with the US. Indian priorities are indicated by close cooperation with US and Russia simultaneously. Which other country hosts US navy ships while leasing INS Chakra-II. India should play with all the sides without compromising it's unstated red lines. I feel China vote in UN has made things clearer.

That's because the Navy is the least insular of the services. For the Army which is really only looking at the infrastructure coming up in Tibet, defence strategists like Bharat Karnad and C. Raja Mohan, and apparently a good bit of BRF, the pace and scale of the Chinese military modernization remains an amorphous idea that can be shrugged away (giving one the luxury of planning 'global strategy').

There's a very very real reason that the folks at the Pentagon are having sleepless nights (and aren't stupid enough to go off on tangents trying to 'contain' India), and why its the Indian Navy that's driving the effort to strengthen ties within the Asia-Pacific region. They can see the accelerating tectonic shift in power equations in Asia.

Many other cannot. That's why you hear this casual (and delusional) attitude towards 'handling' China. Case-in-point:

Bharat Karnad wrote:(3) China can be kept quiet with fluid and contingent partnerships of the kind India has tried out, including with Southeast Asian states, Japan, Taiwan, Russia, and US, perhaps, far better than by signing on with the US.


Of course, actually assessing the actual military disparity in play would require some degree of technical analysis, which is probably too much to expect from Mr. Karnad. But even a very basic comparison of numbers should be enough to raise very serious questions.

The PLAAF's annual intake of fighter jets is closing in on 80 jets per year (may have exceeded it), set to cross 100/yr, at least 75% of which consist of (AESA-equipped) J-10Bs and J-16/J-11Ds. Not counting the J-20 which went into series production last year.

How many fighter jets are we producing? A pitiful 16 jets in the last FY (same as Pakistan, qualitative disparities aside). 19 jets scheduled for delivery in the current FY (16 Su-30s + 3 Tejas Mk1s). With the only technical edge limited to that achieved through the Israeli gear onboard.

Its the same damned story when it comes to force multipliers, ground defences, warships, submarines, logistics, cyberwarfare, you name it. In matters of hard power, we're in entirely different leagues (the Chinese objective is to level their equation with the US).

And with India's basic military deterrence in its current rickety state, its a waste to time to engage in speculation about higher order strategy and civilizational aspirations.
Last edited by Viv S on 14 Apr 2016 11:30, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Vayutuvan » 14 Apr 2016 08:53

ShauryaT wrote:Without foundational agreements, it is not possible to say service an F18 in India. Hence this deal. It is being viewed from a narrow prism.


That is not India's problem, is it? US got themselves into this mess. India may or may not bail them out, i.e. they may or may not sign the foundational agreements. They can drive as hard a (or even a harder) bargain as anybody else. "Viewing from a narrow prism" could be a negotiating tactic (or so one hopes).

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby ldev » 14 Apr 2016 08:54

ShauryaT wrote:Show me another power that will work with us in our strategic programs and I will concede.


Going forward does India really need hand holding with it's nuke program?


As for Russia, it has shown the west the finger and done what it needed to do to protect its interest as they see it. You can well argue that Russia needs the west more but real politic does not work this way. The man (Yeltsin) who sought to put interests of the west over Russia in the belief that, the same is in Russian interest is reviled much today.

The Russia of 1991 and the India of today cannot be compared. The Russia of 1991 under Yeltsin was a nation in transformation with no new institutions to take the place of those that were dissolving. Basically, if you choose to be taken advantage off, then nobody is to blame but yourself. But the China of Deng got what they wanted from the US and built up it's economy to what it is today.

Yes, India is going to build its own nuke subs - Thanks to a little help from Russia.

Sure, and India has paid back Russia for that help but that does not translate into a life long marriage.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Vayutuvan » 14 Apr 2016 08:59

ldev wrote:What have you been smoking? India threaten Gwadar existentially!!


So you think Chahbahar is as good as the paki manufactured "Gwadar" joint for Chinese to smoke?

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Philip » 14 Apr 2016 11:16

The most hilarious reasoning for signing the logistics agreement is that we will be able to use US bases worldwide! When did we become globocop of the high seas,or globocop's depiuty? Or are we planning to be part of Uncle Sam's maritime "posse" bringing up the rear? First of all,there is b*gger all eqpt. wise that is of US origin in IN warships or subs. We have only one vessel,the ex-Trenton of US origin and its legacy helos. Most of the firang eqpt.like weaponry and sensors aboard IN assets are of Soviet/Russian origin. Secondly the great "reach" of the IN.We've just sent the very first missile corvette to be based in the A&N islands,some multi-ocean blue water ambitions. So are we going to use US facilities in Guam,Pearl Harbour,San Diego ...to do what? Hunt pirates? The IOR is our main sphere of ops. Will the US even allow a single IN bumboat to enter Diego Garcia?! :rotfl:

Vietnam and the ICS is the most likely nation and waterbody where the IN will operate from outside the IOR .We are training the Viets in Kilo class sub ops.Vietnames warships and subs are almost all of Russian origin The Gulf is the second region.Here,the proposed dev of Charbahar with Iran is of vital importance to counter Pak's handing over of Gwadar to China. What will be India's predicament of a gung-ho US pres like Trump for instance dumps (as promised) the N-deal with Iran and takes a pot shot at it using Indian base facilities? What if there is a US/NATO spat with Russia in the Baltic/Black Sea/IOR? There was an incident just yesterday where Russian aircraft allegedly overflew/flew too close to a US warship.US warships and subs operating out of Indian bases/ports engaged in hostile actions against the RuN would be simply unacceptable to Russia as well as India.

The Russian fear of US warships stealing Ru tech for instance Akula tech when their warships also use/have base facilities at the very same bases where the sub will visit/operate from,is a very real one. Basing US hardware,etc. on Indian soil also means that some US personnel based there on a permanent basis! To imagine that some of these personnel will not be used to gather intel is being naïve. The agreement also covers repair work on US warships,something that was not possible on DG. In effect India has handed over the sub-continent to the US by stealth .US warships,subs and aircraft will now be able to "visit " ,with the frequency of visits increasing by the month."R&R" means thousands of USN personnel from one of its CBGs creating havoc on land going bar-hunting and whore-hunting ,why they love Thailand so much as an "R&R" stop. On can imagine the MPs being kept busy in Indian ports!

Most importantly,if we examine the IN's cutting edge tech that it possesses,almost everything is of Russian origin.The Vik-A carrier is ex-Russian as well as the MIGs and Kamovs aboard it.The Chakra is Russian,our N-reactor tech for the ATV seriues is heavily in debt to Russia.Brahmos would be impossible without Russia.Our Kilos,the backbone of the IN's sub fleet are Russian.Most sensors and other weaponry like missiles,etc. are also Russian .P*ssing off Russia by allowing the USN a naval foothold in the subcontinent which even they were denied despite their massive military,diplomatic help in 71 and beyond,is bound to happen.As the US starts widening the door further it will have a detrimental cascading effect upon the Indian military.

The old saying "Fools step in where angels fear to tread" is very apt in this case. I'm afraid that we are starting to resemble another period in history,Iran,when it was under the Shah,a willing "policeman" of the Persian Gulf for Uncle Sam.Look what happened to him.The US never even allowed him political refuge when he fled Khomeini's revolution! Let's just wait for the next Paki terror attack ,which will be rewarded yet again with more US largesse for that entity of terror.Mr.Modi and co. will then perhaps realise the consequences, being made of by sad to say a mere lame-duck US president and administration.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016 ... baltic-sea
Russian attack jets buzz US warship in riskiest encounter for years

White House says Baltic Sea incident ‘inconsistent with professional norms of militaries operating in proximity to each other in international waters’

Footage shot on board the vessel shows the Russian Su-24 planes making repeated passes.
Julian Borger in New York
Wednesday 13 April 2016

A Russian jet came within 30ft of a US destroyer conducting exercises in the Baltic Sea in what the US navy described as a “simulated attack” – one of the closest and riskiest encounters between the two countries’ armed forces in recent years.

The US navy released photos and videos showing Russian SU-24 fighter jets flying low over the sea and “buzzing” the USS Donald Cook – a destroyer of the Arleigh Burke class – which carries guided missiles and which had just made a call at the Polish port of Gdynia.

According to the US European Command (Eucom) in Stuttgart, there were a number of such close encounters on Monday and Tuesday, involving both Russian fighter jets and helicopters, while the Donald Cook was in international waters in the Baltic Sea, off the coast of Poland. Those waters are also close to the Russian enclave of Kaliningrad.

Lt Col David Westover, a Eucom spokesman, said that in the closest pass, on Monday, a Russian SU-24 came within 30ft (9 metres) of the Donald Cook, at an altitude of 100ft, as the US navy was practising helicopter landings on the ship’s deck, and an allied helicopter was on the deck refuelling. The drills were stopped because of the danger presented by the Russian overflights, he said. Other reports said that helicopter involved in the aborted exercise had been Polish.

The White House press secretary, Josh Earnest, said the behaviour was “entirely inconsistent with the professional norms of militaries operating in proximity to each other in international waters and international airspace”.

There was no direct response from Moscow, but the pro-government Sputnik news service described the flypast as a “minor incident” which had got the Pentagon “up in arms”.

The incident appears to be the closest so far of a series of military encounters between Russian and US forces since tensions intensified dramatically with Moscow’s annexation of Crimea in 2014 and its subsequent covert military intervention on the side of separatists in eastern Ukraine. Military experts have warned that such risky behaviour could easily lead to a miscalculation by a pilot or sailor leading to an accident and repercussions that spiral out of control.

The European Leadership Network (ELN), a defence thinktank, issued a report in March calling for Moscow and Washington to reach an agreement setting rules for military encounters to lessen the risk of uncontrolled escalation.
Responding to the latest incident, the ELN director, Ian Kearns, said: “These incidents are happening too often. They are dangerous and irresponsible. Any one of them could escalate into something more dangerous still.”

He said the Nato Russia Council, a cooperative body set up after the cold war but which has recently fallen into abeyance, should make management of such incidents a priority at its next session on 20 April.

Eucom’s account of Monday’s incident said the “Donald Cook was conducting deck landing drills with an allied military helicopter when two Russian SU-24 jets made numerous, close-range and low altitude passes at approximately 3pm local time. One of the passes, which occurred while the allied helicopter was refuelling on the deck of Donald Cook, was deemed unsafe by the ship’s commanding officer. As a safety precaution, flight operations were suspended until the SU-24s departed the area.” Other reports said the helicopter was Polish.

On Tuesday, according to Eucom, a Russian KA-27 Helix helicopter flew seven low altitude rings around the US warship, followed 40 minutes later by two SU-24s which “made numerous close-range and low altitude passes, 11 in total”.

“The Russian aircraft flew in a simulated attack profile and failed to respond to repeated safety advisories in both English and Russian,” the Eucom statement said. “We have deep concerns about the unsafe and unprofessional Russian flight manoeuvres. These actions have the potential to unnecessarily escalate tensions between countries, and could result in a miscalculation or accident
that could cause serious injury or death.”

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Viv S » 14 Apr 2016 11:47

Philip wrote:Basing US hardware,etc. on Indian soil also means that some US personnel based there on a permanent basis!

No US hardware is being based on Indian soil. :roll:

The agreement also covers repair work on US warships,something that was not possible on DG.

When exactly did we build repair facilities to service the Arleigh Burke, Nimitz and/or the Virginia classes?

P*ssing off Russia by allowing the USN a naval foothold in the subcontinent...

Hmm.. you do sound p*ssed with all these developments. You can perhaps take solace in the fact that they've had a footprint on the subcontinent for a long time now [ACSAs signed with Bangladesh, with Sri Lanka and (a now lapsed one) with Pakistan], and that the LSA will not materially change the USN's disposition within the IOR.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Philip » 14 Apr 2016 12:11

Just wait and watch.What one is seeing is just the tip of the iceberg.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby chetak » 14 Apr 2016 12:22

Viv S wrote:
Philip wrote:Basing US hardware,etc. on Indian soil also means that some US personnel based there on a permanent basis!

No US hardware is being based on Indian soil. :roll:

The agreement also covers repair work on US warships,something that was not possible on DG.

When exactly did we build repair facilities to service the Arleigh Burke, Nimitz and/or the Virginia classes?

P*ssing off Russia by allowing the USN a naval foothold in the subcontinent...

Hmm.. you do sound p*ssed with all these developments. You can perhaps take solace in the fact that they've had a footprint on the subcontinent for a long time now [ACSAs signed with Bangladesh, with Sri Lanka and (a now lapsed one) with Pakistan], and that the LSA will not materially change the USN's disposition within the IOR.



just as an example, we have repaired a collision damaged brit warship at Mazgaon docks in the past.

It was HMS Ambuscade, if memory serves right. She did not enter mumbai until she had written diplomatic permission delivered on board. She waited outside the harbor for quite some time as the permission routed via the brit embassy had to be hand delivered to us and that took time.

original brit red tape is often more robust than our own ersatz version.

The IN chopper did not land on board and hovered while self passed the diplomatic missive by a lowered line and messenger bag.

Caught a eyeful of the seriously damaged bow. Didn't use the camera because it would have been considered impolite onlee. :wink:

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Viv S » 14 Apr 2016 12:48

chetak wrote:just as an example, we have repaired a collision damaged brit warship at Mazgaon docks in the past.

True. Although keep in mind, it was a 60s era warship (and consider a rather basic design even in those days). Today, if a Daring-class destroyer had a chunk of its bow taken out, they still perform emergency repairs at the closest port and but then they'd tow the ship to Glasgow for a proper job.

Caught a eyeful of the seriously damaged bow. Didn't use the camera because it would have been considered impolite onlee. :wink:

You can still take an 'after' picture for us, if you ever happen to be passing through Karachi one of these days. :mrgreen:

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Viv S » 14 Apr 2016 12:51

Philip wrote:Just wait and watch.What one is seeing is just the tip of the iceberg.

Modi & Parrikar have a much deeper engagement planned eh? Lets wait and watch indeed.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby chetak » 14 Apr 2016 13:06

Viv S wrote:
chetak wrote:just as an example, we have repaired a collision damaged brit warship at Mazgaon docks in the past.

True. Although keep in mind, it was a 60s era warship (and consider a rather basic design even in those days). Today, if a Daring-class destroyer had a chunk of its bow taken out, they still perform emergency repairs at the closest port and but then they'd tow the ship to Glasgow for a proper job.

Caught a eyeful of the seriously damaged bow. Didn't use the camera because it would have been considered impolite onlee. :wink:

You can still take an 'after' picture for us, if you ever happen to be passing through Karachi one of these days. :mrgreen:



the US is not signing agreements for rudimentary repairs, saar. :)

Those days are long gone. Most PSU dockyards in India have serious skill sets and facilities.

vizag naval docks are very very specific to soviet ships, some of those can be used (and are meant to be ) by different classes of soviet ships that are not even in the Indian inventory.

The US was very interested in vizag for itself before it was rebuffed and went off to the pakis for such facilities. This was in the gary powers and the U2 era

the amrekis are persistent buggers and seem to have gained a slippery foot hold for the time being.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Viv S » 14 Apr 2016 13:19

chetak wrote:the US is not signing agreements for rudimentary repairs, saar. :)

Those days are long gone. Most PSU dockyards in India have serious skill sets and facilities.

Serious skills, facilities and tooling designed for Indian ships. The only foreign ships visiting an Indian shipyard for significant repair issues are likely to come from Sri Lanka, Vietnam or (in the near future) Philippines. Any US ship needing serious repair is going to head straight for Yokohama, Japan.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Singha » 14 Apr 2016 13:20

sir more than foothold it is mindshare and facetime with top influential current and future leaders of the services..people whose decisions will shape our navy in the decades , if they can shape the thoughts of such people through constant interactions, its game half won. look how detailed and soothing their product and service briefings are...even our brar_w saar writes such vivid posts its far better than any soothing visions we produce.

devops.automation.machine learning.swarm.mesos.docker :)

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Viv S » 14 Apr 2016 13:40

Singha wrote:sir more than foothold it is mindshare and facetime with top influential current and future leaders of the services..people whose decisions will shape our navy in the decades , if they can shape the thoughts of such people through constant interactions, its game half won. look how detailed and soothing their product and service briefings are...even our brar_w saar writes such vivid posts its far better than any soothing visions we produce.

Lol. Insightful words one has to admit.

The MoD & MEA have spent a lot of time with the USG. Between state visits and summits, Modi and Obama meet like what.. four times a year? And I imagine, that's one of the other reasons why, among the services, the Navy is most bullish about closer defence relations with the Americans. Practically every IN fleet officer would have participated in wargames with the USN and interacted with their officers & sailors. There does seem to be a significant level of comfort established (and vice versa).

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby chetak » 14 Apr 2016 13:51

Viv S wrote:
chetak wrote:the US is not signing agreements for rudimentary repairs, saar. :)

Those days are long gone. Most PSU dockyards in India have serious skill sets and facilities.

Serious skills, facilities and tooling designed for Indian ships. The only foreign ships visiting an Indian shipyard for significant repair issues are likely to come from Sri Lanka, Vietnam or (in the near future) Philippines. Any US ship needing serious repair is going to head straight for Yokohama, Japan.


have it your way.

a well equipped engineering facility can do a multitude of other things apart from what it was "designed" to do.

No one sinks serious money into a one trick pony.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Viv S » 14 Apr 2016 14:19

chetak wrote:have it your way.

a well equipped engineering facility can do a multitude of other things apart from what it was "designed" to do.

No one sinks serious money into a one trick pony.

If it had to, sure. Similarly an IN ship in distress in the South China Sea could head for Okinawa or Yokohoma. But they'd still probably prefer to invest another two weeks at sea (assisted by a tug if necessary) and get it to the ship's home base, or better yet, the original shipyard. The one way they could perhaps utilize the LSA in such situations, is by the provision of an auxiliary from the nearest base/port.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Singha » 14 Apr 2016 14:20

the other such area of facetime and closeness I believe was in the 50s and early 60s when IN sent a lot of officers for training to the UK and operated almost 100% british designed equipment. some of them got "closer" :) and even returned with english wives.
our Vikramaditya commissioning captain caught in kampramising position with a natasha was not so lucky. I wonder whether it was simply a case of tinder or some deeper penetration (pun unintended) of our setup there - dont see a good reason as it was a russian ship he was there for.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby chetak » 14 Apr 2016 14:37

Singha wrote:sir more than foothold it is mindshare and facetime with top influential current and future leaders of the services..people whose decisions will shape our navy in the decades , if they can shape the thoughts of such people through constant interactions, its game half won. look how detailed and soothing their product and service briefings are...even our brar_w saar writes such vivid posts its far better than any soothing visions we produce.

devops.automation.machine learning.swarm.mesos.docker :)



we already have for the longest time now, people going to war college in the US and their folks coming over here. They even send their mid range officers for the DSSC, wellington in ooty.

Personally know many of them and have spoken at length regarding the US and it's shenanigans. Have yet to see any appreciable movement in the direction that you suggest.

the amrekis support to the pakis, many times at our national cost, while they continue to sing peans to our "joint and shared destiny" rings hollow. The well is (for now and the foreseeable future) is truly poisoned. Their sanctions have made them eternally perfidious and no one is going to forgive that.

There are a few brainless ra ra types for sure but then again, aren't they everywhere??

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby chetak » 14 Apr 2016 14:51

Singha wrote:the other such area of facetime and closeness I believe was in the 50s and early 60s when IN sent a lot of officers for training to the UK and operated almost 100% british designed equipment. some of them got "closer" :) and even returned with english wives.
our Vikramaditya commissioning captain caught in kampramising position with a natasha was not so lucky. I wonder whether it was simply a case of tinder or some deeper penetration (pun unintended) of our setup there - dont see a good reason as it was a russian ship he was there for.



our guys are eternal collectors, saar. english, french, russian, american, german, we have many countries represented among the lady wives.

horizontal yoga is not just a failing among the Forces :wink: . Any effing red blooded Indian male, given the opportunity and time away from peering eyes will stray most of the time. No different from Indian males anywhere. Getting caught or getting blackmailed is a serious error of judgement and needs the stick.

wasn't some DRDO director caught In flagrante delicto, while opening throttles in some offsite "facility"??, or some ITVITY honcho who impregnated multiple goris, in complete violation of "company policy"?? and his company paid them after they filed cases??

I know national security is serious business but it still happens. A stiff prick, apparently, has no conscience. :wink:, didn't you know??

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby chetak » 14 Apr 2016 15:12

Viv S wrote:
chetak wrote:have it your way.

a well equipped engineering facility can do a multitude of other things apart from what it was "designed" to do.

No one sinks serious money into a one trick pony.

If it had to, sure. Similarly an IN ship in distress in the South China Sea could head for Okinawa or Yokohoma. But they'd still probably prefer to invest another two weeks at sea (assisted by a tug if necessary) and get it to the ship's home base, or better yet, the original shipyard. The one way they could perhaps utilize the LSA in such situations, is by the provision of an auxiliary from the nearest base/port.


for sure, their repair teams will fly in, pronto.

From anywhere in the US, they are not more than 20-24 hours away. The LSA will not be as simple as is being made out to be. they may want to position a floating dock/tugs nearby, who knows?? an ocean going tug is not a fast creature, it is a powerful creature. It will take time to reach the scene. Other IN ships can also handle the tow if required.

photos of the amreki damaged hull and props will be sought after. the pakis will have access to local assets, wherever the aazan is heard. The chinese will pay very good money, like they did for the crashed helo tail rotor after the bin laden strike.

We will provide security and and other gadda majuri services mostly. The amrekis will swan in and take over, doing their own work with their own people, in secure surroundings.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby NRao » 14 Apr 2016 15:39

Running short on time, so more later, but:

* Fear, fear and more fear. Folks it is not good for *your* health

* Taja khabar: the USN and Philippines *have started* joint patrols. Come to an agreement and implemented the agreement. That as a FYI *only*
Last edited by NRao on 14 Apr 2016 15:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby ldev » 14 Apr 2016 15:52

vayu tuvan wrote:
ldev wrote:What have you been smoking? India threaten Gwadar existentially!!


So you think Chahbahar is as good as the paki manufactured "Gwadar" joint for Chinese to smoke?


That will not happen either, at least no attack by Pakistan.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Bhaskar_T » 14 Apr 2016 16:21

India should as well make a report about shooting in schools, US police shooting blacks etc. US only understands Tit-For-Tat.

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14 April 2016 - http://m.firstpost.com/world/human-righ ... 29038.html

Human rights abuses by police, security forces most significant problem in India: US

Washington: Abuses by police and security forces are the most significant human rights problem in India, the US said on Thursday while raising concerns by civil society over the "failure" of the Gujarat government to hold accountable those responsible for the 2002 riots in the state.

"The most significant human rights problems involved police and security force abuses, including extra-judicial killings, torture, and rape; corruption remained widespread and contributed to ineffective responses to crimes, including those against women, children and members of scheduled castes or tribes; and societal violence based on gender, religious affiliation, and caste or tribe," the US State Department said in its annual 2015 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices.

The report was released by Secretary of State John Kerry at the headquarters of the State Department in Washington DC.

"The frequently grim examples detailed in this report strengthen our resolve to promote fundamental freedoms, to support human rights defenders and to document and promote accountability for violations of human rights," Kerry wrote in the preface of the report.

In its detailed Congressional-mandated report on India, the State Department continues to raise its concerns about the victims of Gujarat riots not receiving justice so far.

"Civil society activists continued to express concern about the Gujarat government's failure to hold accountable those responsible for the 2002 communal violence in Gujarat that resulted in the deaths of more than 1,200 persons, the majority of whom were Muslim," the report said.

"On September 16, the Gujarat High Court's acting Chief Justice assembled a new bench to hear the appeals from Maya Kodnani, Babu Bajrangi, along with others who authorities had sentenced to imprisonment for their role in the 2002 Gujarat riots. This was the fifth bench to hear these petitions," the State Department said.

In its report, the State Department alleged that "lack of accountability" for misconduct at all levels of government persisted, contributing to widespread impunity.

Investigations and prosecutions of individual cases took place but lax enforcement, a shortage of trained police officers and an overburdened and under resourced court system contributed to infrequent convictions, it said.

"Separatist insurgents and terrorists in Jammu and Kashmir, the northeastern states and the Maoist belt committed serious abuses, including killings of armed forces personnel, police, government officials and civilians. Insurgents were responsible for numerous cases of kidnapping, torture, rape, extortion and the use of child soldiers," the report said.

Among other human rights problems the report stated included disappearances, hazardous prison conditions, arbitrary arrest and detention and lengthy pretrial detention.

The report said that court backlogs delayed or denied justice, including through lengthy pre-trial detention and denial of due process.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Philip » 14 Apr 2016 16:31

What is astonishing is that that the US is in retreat everywhere,having effed up the entire ME from Libya to Afghanistan.It took Putin to enter and salvage the situ in Syria where ISIS threatened to take over with active Saudi,Turkish and Gulfie connivance and the US winking at their perfidy.The days of US expexditionary warfare are over. As many Americans including Trump have said,the US people are fed up after spending trillions and making the situ worse off then it was before its mil interventions.

It now wants India to carry "the white man's burden" and how easily the Modi regime has succumbed to Yanqui flattery and are heading for trouble in the future.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Viv S » 14 Apr 2016 16:33

chetak wrote:From anywhere in the US, they are not more than 20-24 hours away. The LSA will not be as simple as is being made out to be. they may want to position a floating dock/tugs nearby, who knows?? an ocean going tug is not a fast creature, it is a powerful creature. It will take time to reach the scene. Other IN ships can also handle the tow if required.

In the event of a USN ship breaking down within the IOR, they'd request a tug from the closest friendly base, same for an IN ship in the SCS/ECS. But that tug would then take the ship/submarine back to its home base. Unless the damage is severe and they need a quick patch up job first, in which case yes they'll head for an Indian shipyard.

photos of the amreki damaged hull and props will be sought after. the pakis will have access to local assets, wherever the aazan is heard. The chinese will pay very good money, like they did for the crashed helo tail rotor after the bin laden strike.

If they can manage that sort of access, the Chinese & Pakistanis would be probably be more interested in the status of local Indian naval assets then pictures of the damaged vessel. And given how long it took us to get our first glimpse of the Arihant and in general how hard it is to track even well known defence projects, one shouldn't be too worried about the forces' capability with respect to locking-down a sensitive site.

We will provide security and and other gadda majuri services mostly. The amrekis will swan in and take over, doing their own work with their own people, in secure surroundings.

Secure surroundings for them is back home in a familiar environment. Which is why, if they don't just go straight home after linking up with the tug, I imagine they'll do so at first opportunity they get, after ensuring the ship is in an adequate state to survive the trip.

In any event, the kind of routine stops at Indian naval bases for MRO-type activities, alluded to by Philip, isn't a likely outcome of the LSA. Although come to think of it, it is a possibility for aviation assets (C-17s, C-130s, Chinook, Seahawks etc). An aircraft based in Bahrain, Kuwait or Oman develops a fault; instead of shipping it to Europe or back to the US, send it over to Hyderabad where its repaired/overhauled and sent back. Could drum up a fair bit of business for TASL & Co.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Viv S » 14 Apr 2016 16:40

Philip wrote:What is astonishing is that that the US is in retreat everywhere,having effed up the entire ME from Libya to Afghanistan.It took Putin to enter and salvage the situ in Syria where ISIS threatened to take over with active Saudi,Turkish and Gulfie connivance and the US winking at their perfidy.The days of US expexditionary warfare are over. As many Americans including Trump have said,the US people are fed up after spending trillions and making the situ worse off then it was before its mil interventions.

They're in retreat in the Af-Pak region. They're in retreat in the Middle-East (though it'll be wise to wait a few years before hanging up a 'Mission Accomplished' banner over Putin's expedition).

In contrast, the US is stepping up its presence in Indo-Pacific region. Those freedom-of-navigation sorties are unlikely to be perceived as a 'retreat' in Beijing.

It now wants India to carry "the white man's burden" and how easily the Modi regime has succumbed to Yanqui flattery and are heading for trouble in the future.

India has no interest in filling the power vacuum in West Asia. Nor have we an intention of committing troops to Afghanistan.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby chetak » 14 Apr 2016 17:18

Viv S wrote:In any event, the kind of routine stops at Indian naval bases for MRO-type activities, alluded to by Philip, isn't a likely outcome of the LSA. Although come to think of it, it is a possibility for aviation assets (C-17s, C-130s, Chinook, Seahawks etc). An aircraft based in Bahrain, Kuwait or Oman develops a fault; instead of shipping it to Europe or back to the US, send it over to Hyderabad where its repaired/overhauled and sent back. Could drum up a fair bit of business for TASL & Co.


TASL would have to take rebirth many times over to even dream of what you suggest so flippantly.

such a thing is IMPOSSIBLE given the investment in men material and machines required. Completely beyond the tata's in terms of capital and expected returns thereon not to mention capability.

Do you even have the least idea of what it takes to do this??

a truly catholic choice (C-17s, C-130s, Chinook, Seahawks etc) This gargantuan MRO would be the first of it's kind with Lockheed Martin, Boeing and Sikorsky "coexisting" under one roof with military inspectors crawling up every crack

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Singha » 14 Apr 2016 17:25

:rotfl: dont forget the inhouse burger king and joes crab shack

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Bhaskar_T » 14 Apr 2016 17:32

General VP Malik and C Uday give thumbs up to LEMOA.


Experts give thumbs up to India-US logistics support agreement.

New Delhi, April 14: The 'in principal' agreement between India and US to conclude an agreement for providing military logistics may prove beneficial for India as long as it is clear that Americcan troops will not be stationed on Indian soil, experts say. The announcement on a Logistics Exchange Memorandum of Agreement (LEMOA) that came during US Defence Secretary Ashton Carter's just-concluded India visit is already facing political skepticism, which was expected for the agreement that has been pending for 10 years, with the former Congress-led United Progressive Alliance (UPA) government soft-pedalling on it.

It also comes at a time when US has been vocal about the growing Chinese activities in the South China Sea and has repeatedly on stressed 'freedom of navigation'.

India on the other hand has been expressing concerns over terror emanating from Pakistan, with the proximity between Pakistan and China being another issue.

The major concern expressed by different political parties for long remained that India, which had chosen to remain non-aligned post independence and through the Cold War period, must not enter the NATO block by supporting US troops.

Former defence minister and Congress leader AK Antony went to the extent of terming the agreement "disastrous", while the Left has also opposed it. However, as both sides -- Carter and his Indian counterpart, Manohar Parrikar -- clarified, the renamed agreement LEMOA (it was previously the Logistics Support Agreement) would not involve the presence of US troops in India.

The agreement, according to available information, will be country-specific for India and will focus on providing support that will primarily include food, fuel and stores. Former Indian Army chief General V.P. Malik said the agreement is likely to be beneficial for India. "This agreement has been floating around for ten years, but India had reservations. Now that the two sides have agreed, it is possible that the agreement has been modified," General Malik, who was in office from 1997 to 2000, a period which included the 1999 Kargil conflict, told IANS. "The basic opposition was that we do not want American troops to be stationed in India, nor do we want to support the process of the forces striking somewhere else," he added. "I feel the Indian and US governments have agreed on a draft that meets these two requirements. It is a useful agreement as long as we are not seen to be supporting americans fighting somewhere else," Gen. Malik noted.

Strategic analyst C. Uday Bhaskar concurred and said the LEMOA would benefit India in the long term. "It is an India-specific agreement. I do think it will be in India's interest in the long term in terms of being able to obtain fuel and logistics at short notice," Bhaskar, who is the director of think tank Society for Policy Studies, told IANS. "At a time when India needs to maintain its presence in the region, this is a useful traction for India," he said. Bhaskar also underlined that the agreement, when it comes into force, is unlikely to be binding in nature and India will always have the right to refuse assistance. "We are not getting stuck in NATO," he clarified.

The US had first proposed an India-specific LSA in 2004 at the sixth meeting of the India-US Defence Policy Group. This was a version of the Acquisition and Cross-Servicing Agreement (ACSA), which the US has with several NATO nations, something that has raised concern.

India has, in the past, provided logistics support to the US. During the 1990-91 Gulf War, prime minister Chandra Shekhar's coalition government provided overflight rights to US planes, and even permitted refueling, but revoked it after protests. During the 2004 tsunami, US support came in handy with India lacking the capability to provide assistance to the vast affected areas, as it did after 2015 Nepal earthquake.

Both Gen. Malik and Bhaskar highlighted this aspect. "During the tsunami, there was good coordination and US helped, although US ships did not come on our side," Gen. Malik said. Bhaskar said India lacked resources to deploy on multiple fronts after the tsunami. "During the Nepal earthquake, US had the digital maps and geo-spatial data which came in handy," Bhaskar added.

http://www.oneindia.com/india/experts-g ... 70413.html

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby chetak » 14 Apr 2016 17:33

^^^^^^^

there is no Indian source for this sort + complexity of manpower.

Do you expect the amrekis to train brown Indians (including owasi's pals) on current bleeding edge top secret weapons + systems + Avionics + EW systems and what not??

especially when putin has reduced them to this nanga state??

Image

A handout image made available on 13 April 2016 by the US Navy shows a Russian Sukhoi Su-24 attack aircraft making a very low altitude pass by USS Donald Cook (DDG 75) in the Baltic Sea, 12 April 2016. Donald Cook, an Arleigh Burke-class guided-missile destroyer forward deployed to Rota, Spain, is conducting a routine patrol in the U.S. 6th Fleet area of operations in support of U.S. national security interests in Europe. File photo
Image by: US NAVY / HANDOUT / EPA


The Russian defence ministry on Thursday said its aircraft observed all required safety measures when flying over a US warship in international waters of the Baltic Sea, dismissing criticism of unsafe conduct.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby ldev » 14 Apr 2016 17:35

I have to say the former Soviet Union is alive and well and fighting the US to the last Indian!!

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Viv S » 14 Apr 2016 17:52

chetak wrote:TASL would have to take rebirth many times over to even dream of what you suggest so flippantly.

Running an MRO facility for a western aircraft, something HAL does without problem, is so far beyond TASL that it would require several rebirths?

such a thing is IMPOSSIBLE given the investment in men material and machines required. Completely beyond the tata's in terms of capital and expected returns thereon not to mention capability.

Why would a private company internally finance the capital costs associated with an MRO facility meant for military (i.e. state owned) aircraft?

Do you even have the least idea of what it takes to do this??

a truly catholic choice (C-17s, C-130s, Chinook, Seahawks etc) This gargantuan MRO would be the first of it's kind with Lockheed Martin, Boeing and Sikorsky "coexisting" under one roof with military inspectors crawling up every crack

Huh? The C-17, C-130, Chinook, Seahawk are examples of the US aircraft we're poised to induct and are serving with other operators in our extended neighborhood. At some stage, we can maintain one or more of them locally through the private sector (license built C-130s & Seahawks being a relatively easy prospect; Chinooks & C-17s - maybe only first line maintenance, pending further fleet expansions), facilities for which would be able to service foreign aircraft as well.

Who said anything about building a single gargantuan MRO to maintain every aircraft under the sun?

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby chetak » 14 Apr 2016 18:12

Bhaskar_T wrote:General VP Malik and C Uday give thumbs up to LEMOA.



India has, in the past, provided logistics support to the US. During the 1990-91 Gulf War, prime minister Chandra Shekhar's coalition government provided overflight rights to US planes, and even permitted refueling, but revoked it after protests. During the 2004 tsunami, US support came in handy with India lacking the capability to provide assistance to the vast affected areas, as it did after 2015 Nepal earthquake.


http://www.oneindia.com/india/experts-g ... 70413.html


then, why did they shut off the GPS over cashmere during the kargil war?? It impeded the IAF bombing runs. This perfidy from them, even after we helped them so much during the gulf war??

the amreki faqers simply cannot be trusted and our greedy "US visa and US job/admission for myself/my children/family" grubbing, ever hungry politicians, baboo(n)s, presstitutes and even the esteemed analysts / defence experts quoted above can be trusted to latch on to US coat tails and tailor their "opinions" accordingly.

Chandra Shekhar's coalition government provided overflight rights to US planes, and even permitted refueling, but revoked it after protests

This is a blatant lie. The then GOI did not permit refueling only. It slyly continued overflight permission. The overflight permission was super critical and not the refueling permission
The presstitutes, purposely did not report this one, tiny little fact.
The amrekis did not care to refuel in Bombay. The facilities are limited and the turn around time of these military cargo flights were getting adversely affected because the Indian commercial flights took priority in refueling. The amrekis complained demanding priority but without result.

If over flights were not permitted by the GOI, and the amrekis had to fly around India. then the fuel component of these flights would have risen very sharply and at the same time the cargo component or payload would have taken a very drastic hit, calling for many many more flights to shift the same amount of cargo.

The amrekis very very happily flew over India, landed and quickly refueled in colombo where the facilities are much better that those available in Bombay. This arrangement even led to them actually carrying a bit more cargo than before because diversionary airfields in South India were much closer to colombo.

and how easily and casually they stabbed us during kargil.

yet, we foolishly signed the LSA with these guys??

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Viv S » 14 Apr 2016 18:25

chetak wrote:then, why did they shut off the GPS over cashmere during the kargil war?? It impeded the IAF bombing runs.

Why were the IAF pilots flying with 'hand-held' GPS-devices jury rigged into the cockpit, if the region had no GPS coverage?

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby krishna_krishna » 14 Apr 2016 18:40

Viv S those devices used GLoNass signals, @ Chetak it's not signed just chai biskoot

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby arshyam » 14 Apr 2016 18:45

Bhaskar_T wrote:General VP Malik and C Uday give thumbs up to LEMOA.

Experts give thumbs up to India-US logistics support agreement.
It is a useful agreement as long as we are not seen to be supporting americans fighting somewhere else," Gen. Malik noted.
Coming from the General, this is very disappointing. I am sure he is aware of US actions during Kargil, and how bare our tool cupboard was.

Strategic analyst C. Uday Bhaskar concurred and said the LEMOA would benefit India in the long term. "It is an India-specific agreement. I do think it will be in India's interest in the long term in terms of being able to obtain fuel and logistics at short notice," Bhaskar, who is the director of think tank Society for Policy Studies, told IANS.

Fuel and logistics from whom and where? So is he saying we will get our fuel from the Americans in *our* home waters? And this guy is an Indian strategic analyst? I respect his service for the country, but this still sounds like a load of bull. Sorry.

"At a time when India needs to maintain its presence in the region, this is a useful traction for India," he said.

Another gem. So, for *our* presence in *our* own home region, we need this agreement with a far-away country? I hope he has been misquoted on this, otherwise this is just utter BS, to put it mildly.

Both Gen. Malik and Bhaskar highlighted this aspect. "During the tsunami, there was good coordination and US helped, although US ships did not come on our side," Gen. Malik said. Bhaskar said India lacked resources to deploy on multiple fronts after the tsunami. "During the Nepal earthquake, US had the digital maps and geo-spatial data which came in handy," Bhaskar added.

http://www.oneindia.com/india/experts-g ... 70413.html

You know, this is a matter of shame if we welcome such agreements for their benefits during times of calamities in our area. Sure, cooperation on humanitarian basis is good, but to base our decision making on such things? On top of that, this 'analyst' is implying the US has good maps in the region (something tells me they didn't stop their maps at Nepal), so this agreement will help us get them? Perhaps we can ask the Americans for maps to the Pathankot border the next time someone creeps through? For a country with one of the largest constellation of remote sensing sats, we turned to the US and looks like we want to keep doing so. Mera bharat mahaan onlee.

What is wrong our analysts?

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Viv S » 14 Apr 2016 18:48

krishna_krishna wrote:Viv S those devices used GLoNass signals

There was no Glonass coverage available in the Indian subcontinent in 1999. It was barely functional in Russia at the time.
Last edited by Viv S on 14 Apr 2016 18:51, edited 1 time in total.


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