India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

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Viv S
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by Viv S »

Christopher Sidor wrote:
Fascinating. Let us do some math.
Iraq 2003, Population = 18 million. Occupation period by USA about 8-10 years. Money spent on Iraq by USA 1.1 Trillion USD. Figures courtesy Wikipedia.
Cost per Iraqi citizen = 61K USD.

Pakistan 2003. Population = 150 million (approx). If USA had occupied Pakistan and ruled over it for 8 years, then approximate cost of occupation = USD 9.15 Trillion. (Considering the fact that Pakistan's population is about 8.3 time Iraq's population)
GDP of America in 2003 = USD 11.51 Trillion.

The figures do not add up. USA is not going to do anything to Pakistan.
Pakistan can't be occupied. Forget the cost, the 5,000 combat deaths they suffered in Iraq will be a picnic compared to the disaster an armed occupation of Pakistan will be, a country with a far higher ratio of nutters than Iraq ever had (without even counting the uniformed ones).

Politically it'll be troublesome, because for all its issues, at least in principle, its already a democracy. You can split off Baluchistan, Pakhtunistan and Gilgit but for the rest, its not really possible to affect a regime change. There's no reliable means of securing the nuclear weapons (assuming none are actually employed during the process).

If they actually had to do something to Pakistan, they'd go about it very differently. The first step would be to pull out everything they have in Afghanistan (via Tajikistan if necessary, persuade, bribe, threaten, whatever). Next would be low grade sanctions; cutting off aid & military support (China could probably alleviate that). Next escalation will be high level financial sanctions cutting them off from the global finance market a la Iran (not much China would be able to do, given Pakistan's dependence on remittances). That would then be followed up by a naval blockade (Iran would be probably help Pakistan out here; anti-US solidarity). An extreme measure thereafter would be to start an air campaign turning Pakistan's conventional military capability into rubble. At that stage, even if they hadn't achieved their aims by then (assuming they had some concrete objectives to begin with), they'd still probably find some justification,to call it 'Mission Accomplished' and go home. But ground invasion of Pakistan? Despite what the events of the last decade would suggest, they aren't that stupid.
Another aspect. How does an outside power threaten India in the most effective manner? Two ways, one via Indian Ocean and second via planes of Punjab or desert of Sindhi-Rajasthan-Gujarat.

Ground invasion from the W/SW won't work. Our SLOCs can right now be threatened only by the USN.

But by 2025, PLAN CBGs will have begun sorties into the IOR. And by 2030, they'll probably have the logistical wherewithal to forward base a fleet in the IOR, nixing the IAF & IN's preferred strategy i.e to concentrate their strength at the Malacca chokepoint where a transiting PLAN battle group would be vulnerable. Operating at range with enough escorts, they could convincingly threaten our SLOCs, forcing the IN to push out of land-based cover into a Midway type naval battle.

This BTW is where the USN could potentially play spoiler to the Chinese plans by stepping up their activity in East Asian waters, tying up PLAN (and PLAAF) resources, weakening their strength in the IOR (and Tibet).
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by SaiK »

ramana wrote:So LEMOA is for disaster relief operations from Indian perspective!

What a fall.
which Indian? iow, says who/which doc?

if you go by:
Boost to US's 'Asia pivot'
13 Apr, 2016
US has increasingly turned its focus to Asia as it tries to counter China's growing assertiveness in the South China Sea, and is eager for India to play a greater role in its network of regional defence alliances.

A senior US defence official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said China was "operating more frequently both throughout Southeast Asia and in the Indian Ocean", something both Washington and New Delhi were "watching closely".
The khans want more of the dharmic participation. Hence, we have to go ask them in details what is the plan?

Agreements like batori ji said, is only an aspect to sit together and discuss with points to cover. I am sure, no agreement will be on blanket/abstract basis.

On the same lines, I would be darned if the khans will agree to scratch their back on tech transfer without a basis.

we have to dive into case by case. that is exactly needs to be drafted in these agreements.
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by Samay »

Mr Sangha Pracharak is happily turning Indians into coolies. :oops:
What ever bu778yt this"" logistical" support is called, the aim is using Indians as coolies and security guards. If this thing starts , then Indians should cancel any big aspirations . This will be the biggest mistake after independence from Angreji raj which turned Indians into coolies.
Now thats truly called a sickular thinking and action, a treasonable agreement indeed.
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by Prem »

http://www.financialexpress.com/article ... es/235994/
Countering China: Why the India-US logistics exchange agreement for militaries is important
Why is this logistics agreement important? What does it mean for both India and US, in context to regional dynamics? We take a look:
1. Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has said, “As our (India-US) engagement deepens, we need to develop practical mechanisms to facilitate such exchanges. In this context, Secretary Carter and I agreed in principle to conclude a Logistics Exchange Memorandum of Agreement (LEMOA) in the coming months.”LEMOA is a tweaked version of LSA which facilitates the provision of logistical support, supplies and services between the US military and the armed forces of partner countries on a reimbursable basis, and provides a framework that governs the exchange of logistics support, supplies and services.
2. Explaining the proposed agreement, Parrikar said it is for providing logistics whenever they need fuel or other support during operations like the humanitarian exercise done in wake of the devastating earthquake in Nepal.“This will help if any such situation comes up. Logistics is a very important part of the operation. It will be on case by case basis,” Carter said, adding that “all issues” relating to the deal have been resolved.
3. Parrikar and Carter made it clear that the agreement does not entail deployment of American troops on Indian soil.
4. India was earlier of the view that a logistics agreement would be seen as a military alliance with the US. However, with a tweaked LSA, India will decide on a case-to-case basis. LSA was part of the three controversial agreements that the US has been pursuing India to sign for nearly a decade.
Termed as the “foundational agreements”, the other two are — Communications and Information Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA) and Basic Exchange and Cooperation Agreement (BECA).

5. US has been urging India to sign an LSA that allows the two militaries to use each other’s land, air and naval bases for resupplies, repair and rest. India has had concerns that a logistics agreement would draw it into a military alliance with the United States and undermine its traditional autonomy.
6. PM Narendra Modi’s administration, faced with an assertive China expanding its influence in the South China Sea and into the Indian Ocean, has signalled its desire to draw closer to the United States.
7. US officials said the logistics agreement will help the two militaries coordinate better, including in exercises, and also allow each other to more easily sell fuel or provide spare parts to India.
8. The US military has made clear it wants to do more with India, especially in countering China. Carter is on his second visit to India in less than a year, aimed at cementing defence cooperation in the final months of Barack Obama’s presidency.
SaiK
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by SaiK »

another question. is the "traditional autonomy" means leaning way too left, dhoti shiver against chinese design and get constantly price gouged by france, and no independence due to russian spares and politics, and get blasted by paki terror activities with american support?

every nation to which we deal, we can independently relate and agree or disagree on things based on our strategic plans. that is freedom with responsibility. we need to hold the leash on all the horses tied to our vikas cart.

if we are poor visionaries, and bad document writers, and get fooled often.. then we deserve in kind with the same.
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by Cosmo_R »

Samay wrote:Mr Sangha Pracharak is happily turning Indians into coolies. :oops:
What ever bu778yt this"" logistical" support is called, the aim is using Indians as coolies and security guards. If this thing starts , then Indians should cancel any big aspirations . This will be the biggest mistake after independence from Angreji raj which turned Indians into coolies.
Now thats truly called a sickular thinking and action, a treasonable agreement indeed.
That is one POV. A while back, a number of relics from the khadi movement were calling Bangalore techies "Oracle/Microsoft coolies". Nothing in LEMOA involves cooliazation that a million workers in the Gulf involves.
SaiK
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by SaiK »

Abuses by police, forces major rights problem in India: US

"The most significant human rights problems involved police and security force abuses, including extra-judicial killings, torture, and rape; corruption remained widespread and contributed to ineffective responses to crimes, including those against women, children and members of scheduled castes or tribes; and societal violence based on gender, religious affiliation, and caste or tribe," the US State Department said in its annual 2015 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices.


Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst
scratch back time begins
SSridhar
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by SSridhar »

SaiK wrote:
Abuses by police, forces major rights problem in India: US
scratch back time begins
Irrespective of whether we sign all three 'foundational agreements' or not, some of these 'needling points' would be always kept in reserve by the US for us, only to be released every now and then (as it does with most counties).
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by Singha »

india should never respond to such reports and make it official policy not to respond to any questions by media on it - domestic or foreign.

instead we should publish our own similar reports on other nations that publish reports on us.
member_27581
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by member_27581 »

SSridhar wrote:SaiK wrote:
Quote:
Abuses by police, forces major rights problem in India: US

scratch back time begins
we should take a leaf from PRC book on this, trash this and be ready to respond in kind ..US despite of broadly a monolithic society with same language, high levels of education and not much variation in religion ...we should vociferously point out the shootings of "colored" people by cops or the fact that until 60s blacks couldnt vote and and before the end of ww1 women couldnt vote nationally..
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by Mort Walker »

ramana wrote:Mort You need minimum of four sats to fix the position not 3.
V_Raman good. Thanks for thinking. Will comment tomorrow.
Ramana,

GPS satellites have a cesium atomic clock on board for timing and the reference is provided by the ground station. When using un-encrypted GPS signals for commercial use, lock on 2 sats will provide good time, lock on 3 sats will provide good lat/lon information, and lock on 4 sats will provide lat/lon and altitude information. Altimeters and barometric sensors (like the kind in your smart phone) will provide altitude, so what we need most is good lat/lon coordinates in degrees:minutes:seconds. To spoof GPS on any given satellite over a particular area, the ground station can induce a reference time error of a few to several micro-seconds on the un-encrypted channel for the sat in question. Remember that 6 us = 1 NM. This is actually better than shutting off or jamming GPS. GPS signals are at ~1.5 GHz and are very weak and easily subject to interference, both intentional and unintentional. GPS signal power levels are roughly -130 dBm or 10^-16 Watts . For comparison a weak cell phone signal is around -100 dBm.

The question is does the US spoof or jam GPS? Yes and no. In the past US intelligence and military would not have hesitated, but today there is supplemental data from GLONASS, Galileo and BeiDou navigation. Even without supplemental sat nav, GPS is now being used to supplement navigation for commercial aviation and shipping. Messing with it today is not good practice as it would affect US companies around the world. It is VERY UNLIKELY THAT THE US WOULD SPOOF GPS TODAY. HOWEVER THEY MAY SHUT IT DOWN OVER A GIVEN AREA. Spoofing GPS has become a problem in the continental US as many trucking companies are keeping track of their truck positions using GPS. Unscrupulous truck drivers have been buying GPS jamming devices from eBay and Alibaba for less than $100 USD over the last decade and law enforcement has found out. Several truckers have been severely fined by the FCC for deliberately jamming GPS. They usually get detected by law enforcement when driving past them with jammers going!
SSridhar
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by SSridhar »

Singha wrote:india should never respond to such reports and make it official policy not to respond to any questions by media on it - domestic or foreign.

instead we should publish our own similar reports on other nations that publish reports on us.
Exactly.
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by Austin »

sudeepj wrote: If you are using civilian GPS receivers, jamming can be done by many sources and is fairly easy. Georgians may have been able to procure these jammers from any number of sources and could have been operating them. That GPS signals were jammed does not imply that it was the US govt. or CIA that did the jamming. Even IRNSS signals will be susceptible to the same kind of jamming. The only solution is to develop technologies to locate the jammers effectively and destroy them.

*Btw. Even the technology to detect at least some types of jammers is fairly easy.
Yes GPS can be jammed but US was the main sponsor of Georgian then , if you leave that aiside the GPS was also jammed when blackjack landed in Venezuela and SD was not happy about it , and who else would do that ?
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by Gus »

total blacklisting of the names involved should be a start. blacklist as in no entry to india, no contacts with them etc. any NGO having contact with them over there and working over here has to comply as well. the last one will be a problem with courts stepping in. so it has to be an unofficial policy with restrictions coming from discretions where courts cannot force.
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by vishvak »

Austin wrote:
sudeepj wrote:<SNIP>
Yes GPS can be jammed but US was the main sponsor of Georgian then , if you leave that aiside the GPS was also jammed when blackjack landed in Venezuela and SD was not happy about it , and who else would do that ?
Not to go OT here, but a long distance flight would have added to the Venezuela Error adding to about 50 km, which is about half the distance between Mumbai and Pune municipality limits just to compare.
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by svenkat »

Image
vishvak
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by vishvak »

Surely, the PotUS will come out to address complaints against minority students facing dogmas in USA and quickly found out whodunnit to avoid targeting minority Hindoo students, totally different from Pakistani school textbooks in scope and outlook. Going by standards of education, the school education system will also act out how the natives were decimated in USA viz spreading diseases, long marches, outright slaughter, et al.

Somehow secularism works ulta in USA.
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Post by SaiK »

VinodTK
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Post by VinodTK »

Former-US-defense-contractor-sentenced-for-passing-military-secrets-to-India
WASHINGTON, April 14 (UPI) -- A former U.S. defense contractor with access to sensitive U.S. weapons systems has been sentenced to over four years in federal prison for passing information on those weapons to India.

Hannah Robert, 49, had pleaded guilty to conspiracy to violate the Arms Export Control Act by exporting to India military technical drawings without prior approval of the U.S. Department of State, according to the U.S. Department of Justice. She also pleaded guilty to manufacturing substandard components for U.S. weapons systems.

"Hannah Robert circumvented the U.S. government and provided export-controlled technical data related to various types of military technology to an individual in India," Assistant Attorney General John Carlin said in a statement issued Thursday.

Aside from passing military secrets to India, Robert also conspired to send "thousands of technical drawings of defense items and sensitive military data" to another unnamed country, U.S. Attorney Paul Fishman said. An Indian partner of Robert, identified only as P.R., requested by email the documents for a trans-shipper with a United Arab Emirates address selling hardware to an end user in Pakistan.

As the founder and president of One Source USA LLC, Robert had secured contracts to provide technical hardware and spare parts to the Defense Department, according to case documents and witness testimony.

From June 2010 to December 2012, Robert handed over detailed drawings and design blueprints to P.R., including information on components used in the torpedoes on board U.S. nuclear submarines, as well as sensitive technical details for U.S. attack helicopters and F-15 fighters, according to court documents.

Aside from the conspiracy charge, substandard wing pins and other aeronautical components built by Robert's company for the F-15 fighter forced Pentagon officials to ground roughly 47 fighters for inspection and repair in 2012.
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by chetak »

the "needling" seemingly continues......... :) The association with radia certainly seems to have influenced higher management at the tatas'

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/busine ... 23211.html



Washington, April 16

A US grand jury has slapped two companies of India’s Tata group — Tata Consultancy Services and Tata America International Corp. — with a $940-million fine in a trade secret lawsuit filed against them.

After days of hearing, the federal grand jury in the US State of Wisconsin ruled that Tata Consultancy Services Ltd. and Tata America International Corp. must pay $240 million to Epic Systems for ripping off its software.

The Tatas have also been asked to pay another $700 million in punitive damages.

Epic Systems had accused TCS and Tata America International Corp., in a lawsuit filed in October, 2014, in US District Court in Madison which was amended in January and December 2015, of “brazenly stealing the trade secrets, confidential information, documents and data” belonging to Epic.

In its lawsuit, Epic had said that TCS took that data while consulting for its customer.

Epic said it “recently learned from an informant” that TCS employees have been “fraudulently accessing” Epic’s software beyond what the consulting contract required, and using Epic’s software to improve their own competing product.

One TCS employee’s account, which was used in India and several US locations, downloaded 6,477 documents, according to Epic.

“Rather than compete lawfully with Epic, TCS has engaged in an apparently elaborate campaign of deception to steal documents, confidential information, trade secrets, and other information and data from Epic, for the purpose of realising technical expertise developed by Epic over years of hard work and investment,” the lawsuit said.
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by kit »

http://www.energy-daily.com/reports/Aer ... s_999.html

"The U.S. aerospace and defense sector was the largest contributor to America's net exports during the 2010 to 2015 period, making it one of the few domestic industrial sectors with a positive trade balance," said Tom Captain, vice chairman, Deloitte LLP, and aerospace and defense sector leader. "The sector is also a top employer, taxpayer and contributor to the nation's gross domestic product, making it key to U.S. manufacturing competitiveness."

Deloitte said that in analyzing the period 2010 to 2015 it found the aerospace and defense sector accounted for 9.5 percent of total U.S. exports in 2015, with the sector's contribution increasing from 7.1 percent of total exports in 2010; the total aerospace and defense gross exports in 2015 were $143.3 billion; and China was the largest aerospace and defense export market for the U.S. in 2015, followed by the U.K. and France.

The top five U.S. states for sector exports were Washington, California, Connecticut, Texas and Georgia. They accounted for about 61 percent of the sector exports in 2015.
Last edited by ramana on 16 Apr 2016 20:26, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added highlights ramana
NRao
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by NRao »

^^^^^

Aerospace includes commercial exports from the likes of Boeing from their civilian division.

Need more diversity for a healthier economy.
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Post by Yagnasri »

chetak
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Post by chetak »

All hail, the glorious allies that we have.

From the one comment already in the comments section :evil:
These three men seem to have taken the idea of interoperability to the next level.

Three RAW officers defect to the West

Three RAW officers defect to the West
By ABHINANDAN MISHRA | NEW DELHI | 17 April, 2016

Three officers belonging to the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW), India’s external spy agency, have “willingly disappeared” and are now likely to be in a large Western country, which has a history of accepting and facilitating such disappearances of Indian intelligence officers, The Sunday Guardian has learnt. Repeated emails sent to the Cabinet Secretariat, which is the controlling body of the RAW, over a period of two weeks, seeking responses over the development, did not elicit either a denial or an acceptance of the development.

These RAW officers, one of whom is posted at a senior level in the agency, had shifted their families to the western country much before they themselves disappeared. The disappearance of these three officers took place in the last three months, this newspaper has learnt. Two of the officers were handling two South Asian countries, while the third was handling a large East Asian country.

It is assumed that these three officers were working for the intelligence agency of the Western country for long and in all likelihood have passed on vital information to the agency before disappearing.

Emails sent to two departments that handle such defections in this particular Western country did not elicit any response, either a denial or a confirmation, despite repeated attempts.

This is not for the first time that officers working for the Indian spy agency have “willingly disappeared”. Many similar incidents, at least nine as per official records, have happened since the creation of the agency in 1968, including the defection of Rabinder Singh, who was a joint secretary in the RAW before defecting to the United States in 2004.

In 2004, Rabinder Singh had defected to the US via Kathmandu along with his wife with the assistance of the CIA. In 2006, RAW had told a Delhi court that he had been traced to New Jersey and the agency was trying to extradite him.

According to officials in the security establishment, it is virtually impossible to bring back these spies as once they land in their country of refuge, they are given a new identity and are treated as well guarded assets and with time are granted citizenships.

In this game of cloak and daggers, defections are not very uncommon. In the late 1980s, Igor Guejo, a KGB agent disappeared from New Delhi under mysterious circumstances. His red Lada Vaz car was found abandoned at Lodhi Garden, where he used to go for his evening walks. Even as Indian agencies searched for him, Guejo surfaced in New York some days later. It was obvious that he had defected from USSR to the US.

There are also ample stories of how senior bureaucrats and officers of the armed forces have been compromised to work for intelligence agencies abroad. The infamous spy scandal involving the Larkin brothers—one a retired Air Vice Marshal and the other a decorated Major General—was a grim reminder of how Western intelligence agencies had successfully recruited two men with many state secrets.

There have been allegations that a former chief in the defence establishment had close connections with the Americans during one of India’s internal conflict in the 1960s. The names of several politicians who were close to the CIA figure in a book written by celebrated author and journalist, Seymour Hersh
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by vera_k »

^^
Wonder if this is related to all of the alleged Indian operatives being arrested in Pakistan.
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by Viv S »

Ashton Carter’s visit: a mixed bag
Image

By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 15th April 16

A slew of announcements after Tuesday’s meeting in New Delhi between the US and Indian defence secretaries --- Ashton Carter and Manohar Parrikar --- have sought to create a glow of unalloyed success around the US-India defence relationship.

But a look at the outcome of earlier US-India announcements, including those made during President Barack Obama’s visit to India in January 2015, provides a sobering dose of reality.

Tuesday’s announcements include an “in principle” agreement to quickly conclude a long-delayed logistics agreement; joint development of defence equipment; deepening consultations for designing India’s aircraft carrier and an advanced jet engine; cooperating on submarine operations, and safeguarding maritime security in the Asia-Pacific.

In fact, US officials are disappointed that an India-specific logistics agreement, entitled “Logistics Exchange Memorandum of Agreement (LEMOA)” was not formally signed during Carter’s visit, even though New Delhi and Washington had agreed on all its clauses. The US Department of Defence (Pentagon) now realises that the National Democratic Alliance --- like the United Progressive Alliance government --- is wary of the political risks of alignment with America.

New Delhi's cautious approach to the LEMOA --- first signing an in-principle agreement, and then inking the deal later after gauging the political fallout ---portends slow progress in concluding the other two “foundational agreements”: a Communications and Information Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA) that would allow Washington to release secure radio equipment to India; and the Basic Exchange and Cooperation Agreement for Geospatial Information and Services Cooperation (BECA), on digital mapping and survey.

Carter, who has relentlessly pushed the US-India defence relationship, put a brave face on this, telling NDTV on Tuesday: “I think, over time, [the foundational agreements] will all be concluded. I want to emphasize there’s a lot we can do without them; but there’s much more we can do with them.”

The announcement of two US-India “pathfinder projects” to co-develop a Digital Helmet Mounted Display; and a Joint Biological Tactical Detection System, is unlikely to yield products in a hurry, going by the tardy progress on four “pathfinder projects” identified during Obama’s January 2015 visit.

Of those, New Delhi and Washington are still deciding on industrial partners for two products --- the “Cheel” micro-drone that infantrymen could launch for battlefield surveillance; and roll-on, roll-off kits for the C-130J Super Hercules transport aircraft, which are essentially quick-change aircraft interiors for varied missions like para-dropping, cargo-carrying and medical evacuation. The other two --- a mobile, electric hybrid power source (MEHPS); and protective clothing for soldiers in nuclear, chemical or biologically contaminated battlefields --- which will be co-developed by military agencies, it took India seven months to decide on its development agency.

Pathfinder projects are of two types: those proposed by industry, and others proposed by the military. The MEHPS was proposed by the US Marine Corps, and is being co-developed with India’s Defence R&D Organisation. Both the projects proposed during Carter’s visit are military proposals. The US Air Force will co-lead the digital helmet project, while the US Army will co-lead the biological detection system. It remains to be soon how quickly New Delhi selects the Indian agencies.

Similarly, there is little to report on the two major DTTI projects initiated during Obama’s visit in January 2015: on US design assistance for India’s next aircraft carrier; and in co-developing an advanced fighter jet engine. Carter and Parrikar have merely resolved to “deepen consultations” on these projects.

Senior New Delhi officials tell Business Standard there is little chance that India will equip its aircraft carrier with the futuristic, electro-magnetic aircraft launch system (EMALS) that the US is only now fitting on its carriers. Choosing EMALS would logically lead the Indian Navy to American carrier-based aircraft like the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, but New Delhi planners have decided EMALS is untested, expensive, power-intensive (requiring a nuclear-powered vessel), and provides a rapid aircraft launch capability beyond what the Indian Navy needs.

Even if India chooses a conventional steam catapult for launching aircraft, it would open the doors for US aircraft like the Super Hornet. But there was no announcement on the proposal to build these fighters in India, which US officials had talked up before Carter’s visit.

Delay also bedevils the project to co-develop an advanced jet engine, which India needs for its next-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA). Last year, encouragingly, Washington cleared US engine-maker, General Electric, to share jet engine technology with India. However, thorny issues of intellectual property rights remain, with General Electric reluctant to provide India access to critical technologies that it developed at enormous cost.

Similarly, Carter’s and Parrikar’s announced support for freedom of navigation in the South China Sea was only an echo of the “India-US Joint Strategic Vision for the Asia-Pacific and Indian Ocean Region” that Obama and Modi signed in 2015. What took that forward, however, was the announcement of a bilateral Maritime Security Dialogue between both countries’ defence and foreign ministries.

India has clearly gained from the agreement “to commence navy-to-navy discussions on submarine safety and anti-submarine warfare.” It is learnt that the trilateral Exercise Malabar scheduled for June, featuring the US, Japan and India, would have a major submarine component. For last year’s Malabar, the US had sent a Los Angeles-class nuclear submarine, while India fielded a Kilo-class diesel-electric boat. Analysts say the next Malabar could feature Japan’s vaunted Soryu-class submarines, which it hopes to sell India.

Conservative commentators, such as Bharat Karnad, speculate that deepening relations with the US, specifically the signing of CISMOA, would offend Moscow, causing it to cancel the ongoing lease to India of an Akula II-class nuclear submarine, the planned lease of a second nuclear submarine, and the sale of other high-technology weaponry.

However, authoritative Russian sources tell Business Standard that Indo-US submarine cooperation would not impact relations with Russia “significantly or dramatically”, especially with regard to weapons platforms “already provided or offered to India”.

Another major plus for the Indian Navy is the US entry into the “white shipping” technical arrangement. This Indian initiative for “maritime domain awareness” involves partner countries informing New Delhi in real-time about their merchant shipping transiting through the Indian Ocean sea lanes. Six countries are already on board --- Sri Lanka, Thailand, Australia, Singapore, Mauritius and Seychelles. Navy spokespersons say that figure is likely to rise to 27 soon.
Viv S
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by Viv S »

On the matter of EMALS, I think the MoD is more likely to sanction a similar sized follow-on to the IAC Vikrant (the IN was 'studying' the HSL proposal as of Feb this year).

Any large carrier ordered will be a long term project (IOC post-2030) and is very likely to be equipped with a catapult (enabling integral fixed wing AEW&C support). Issue is, over the long term, a steam catapult will actually cost more and face greater mechanical hassles compared to an EM-driven system (which BTW is also why China has a EM cat system in development, presumably for its 3rd & 4th carriers).
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by Vayutuvan »

TSJones wrote: stop projecting your desires on others....speak for yourself about how you like your weird sex. leave me and my country ot of it,,,,,,, :evil:
tch tch tch. Very sensitive when it comes to taking criticism, aren't we? In any case you seem to have a dirty mind. Who is talking about sex? US is as much my country as it is yours. May be introspection is something ungeard of in your circles, but some us, your compatriots, might want to engage in it for self-growth.

Leaving all the polemics aside, you still haven't still answered the real question. Why do we have to bow to the Pakistanis? I am sure you agree that we dance to their tune. What is their hold on us?
kit
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by kit »

The reason being the USA was not exactly born that way ..but it had time to work out the kinks in its setup ..not that it is perfect anyway !! .. but India despite its civilization is a young democracy ..and it just jettisoned its long ruling clan .. give it time and it *will* be the first among equals
TSJones
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by TSJones »

vayu tuvan wrote:
TSJones wrote: stop projecting your desires on others....speak for yourself about how you like your weird sex. leave me and my country ot of it,,,,,,, :evil:
tch tch tch. Very sensitive when it comes to taking criticism, aren't we? In any case you seem to have a dirty mind. Who is talking about sex? US is as much my country as it is yours. May be introspection is something ungeard of in your circles, but some us, your compatriots, might want to engage in it for self-growth.

Leaving all the polemics aside, you still haven't still answered the real question. Why do we have to bow to the Pakistanis? I am sure you agree that we dance to their tune. What is their hold on us?
ask a serious question and I'll give you a serious answer.....
Why do we have to bow to the Pakistanis? I am sure you agree that we dance to their tune. What is their hold on us?
1. we need access to Afghanistan. the kind of access that we can move equipment and supplies thru their country w/o having to fight our way thru it.

2. we don't always "dance to their tune". they don't get near the money and equipment that they ask for.

3. this is a temporary arrangement. they know when when and if we leave Afghanistan, the access arrangement is over.

we go to a new arrangement which probably won't be to their liking.

4. I have every reason to believe that the GoI supports our presence in Afghanistan and they know we have to have access.

If India wishes to give us access and facilities then let's hear her proposal.
Last edited by TSJones on 17 Apr 2016 10:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by Christopher Sidor »

Viv S wrote: ........
.........
Christopher Sidor wrote: Another aspect. How does an outside power threaten India in the most effective manner? Two ways, one via Indian Ocean and second via planes of Punjab or desert of Sindhi-Rajasthan-Gujarat.

Ground invasion from the W/SW won't work. Our SLOCs can right now be threatened only by the USN.

But by 2025, PLAN CBGs will have begun sorties into the IOR. And by 2030, they'll probably have the logistical wherewithal to forward base a fleet in the IOR, nixing the IAF & IN's preferred strategy i.e to concentrate their strength at the Malacca chokepoint where a transiting PLAN battle group would be vulnerable. Operating at range with enough escorts, they could convincingly threaten our SLOCs, forcing the IN to push out of land-based cover into a Midway type naval battle.

This BTW is where the USN could potentially play spoiler to the Chinese plans by stepping up their activity in East Asian waters, tying up PLAN (and PLAAF) resources, weakening their strength in the IOR (and Tibet).
There are 4 ways into Indian Ocean from Western Pacific. One is via the Mallaca straits. The second is via the Lombok/Alas strait in Indian Ocean. The third is the Sundra strait. The fourth is the sea between northern Australia and Indonesia. Add to this the ASAT+ASBM capabilities of PLA which will play a role in our operations in Mallaca Strait. Our ability to prevent PLAN/PLAAF operations in IOR will be reduced starting from 2020. By that time USN will also loose its edge in Western Pacific. It will be very powerful but will not be able to Dominate. Our ability to track PLAN submarines via the Lombok strait is limited at the present. The P8I aircraft that India purchased recently might help but we will need something else. We need unmanned submarines and drones which can keep an eye on these straits.
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by NRao »

Viv S wrote:On the matter of EMALS, I think the MoD is more likely to sanction a similar sized follow-on to the IAC Vikrant (the IN was 'studying' the HSL proposal as of Feb this year).

Any large carrier ordered will be a long term project (IOC post-2030) and is very likely to be equipped with a catapult (enabling integral fixed wing AEW&C support). Issue is, over the long term, a steam catapult will actually cost more and face greater mechanical hassles compared to an EM-driven system (which BTW is also why China has a EM cat system in development, presumably for its 3rd & 4th carriers).
BTW, latest AWST has an article that states the second/third Chinese carrier is perhaps meant for the IOR.
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by kit »

Have a question regarding the agreement signed with the US .. apparently Inia can refuse refuelling if against a friendly country .. Is the US supposed to declare for what purpose its warships and planes refuel ?..India can refuse only if it knows for what purpose .. so spy flights and special missions will continue per se .. without any notifications
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by krishna_krishna »

No agreement is signed yet. All chai biskoot only
NRao
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by NRao »

kit wrote:Have a question regarding the agreement signed with the US .. apparently Inia can refuse refuelling if against a friendly country .. Is the US supposed to declare for what purpose its warships and planes refuel ?..India can refuse only if it knows for what purpose .. so spy flights and special missions will continue per se .. without any notifications
As they do today, without any agreements.

I see no value in BECA. I cannot see a dire need for CISMOA (the Russian angle is bogus IMHO). The LSA, I can see value.
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by Viv S »

kit wrote:Have a question regarding the agreement signed with the US .. apparently Inia can refuse refuelling if against a friendly country .. Is the US supposed to declare for what purpose its warships and planes refuel ?..India can refuse only if it knows for what purpose .. so spy flights and special missions will continue per se .. without any notifications
Our priority is to avoid any public connection with a US military action that doesn't concern us (such as the Iraq war). But something that is 'off-the-books' isn't going to have diplomatic consequences for us (we can't be held complicit if the flight plan said XX, and actual route it took was YY).

And in any case, countries in the region friendly with us (Oman, Mauritius + ASEAN states) are mostly friendly with the US as well. As for the others, the US already has available logistic hubs for stopovers for spy flights (GCC - Iran/Iraq; Bangladesh/Thailand - Myanmar). Plus its establishing a larger footprint within SE Asia.

U.S. seeks return to SE Asian bases


The crucial point for us will be to maximize what intelligence we can gather on the PLA - not only via the US, Japan & Vietnam but also from our own activities in the SCS.
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by Bhaskar_T »

Evil Hindoos were thinking that US will provide Predator, US Aircraft Carrier Tech, F-16/F-18 Production Line, Engine Manufacturing Tech while India hugs back with CISMOA + LEMOA.
SaiK wrote: India, US not on same page on tech-transfer.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 23013.html

New Delhi, April 15

India and the US, at the latest meeting on defence-related matters, promised to continue engagement but disagreed on issues of transfer of technology and stopped short of indulging in public embrace.

For New Delhi, the next week starts with a diplomatic tango with Russia, which has so far not reacted publicly, and to smoothen the wrinkles with its neighbour China, which has been guarded in its initial response.

Commencing on April 18, key members of Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s team will be in Moscow and Beijing. Parrikar and National Security Adviser (NSA) Ajit Doval are separately heading to Beijing and will possibly explain there that the LEMOA is not a military pact. External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj will be at the Russia-India-China (RIC) trilateral in Moscow on Monday.

US Defence Secretary Ashton Carter and Indian Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar on April 12 announced an in-principle decision to ink the Logistics Exchange Memorandum of Agreement (LEMOA) for which a draft is being prepared.

Even as Carter was explaining to a crowd of mediapersons about the benefits of the LEMOA, Parrikar in a “matter-of-fact” tone interjected and clarified: “This does not mean stationing of US troops on the Indian soil.” What Parrikar and Carter have okayed is a re-jigged version of the Logistics Support Agreement (LSA), a cast-in-iron framework, which the US was keen on getting India to sign.

Parrikar is fully aware of the impact this can have on India’s relations.

An angered Moscow could hold back crucial nuclear technologies for the three Arihant class of nuclear submarines, the BrahMos supersonic missiles and even stop the impending lease of another nuclear-powered attack submarine of the Akula class. As per a report by the Sweden-based think tank Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), realised in February this year, Russia was the biggest weapons supplier to India between 2011 and 2015. “Russia supplied 70 per cent of India’s arms imports, the US 14 per cent,” the report said.

Another thing that has emerged from the latest Parrikar-Carter meeting is that the two sides are not on the same page in terms of technology transfer, a pre-requisite India has said if the US-based companies are to participate in the ‘Make in India’ programme for fighter jets. The US has, so far, been non-committal. At the Council on Foreign Relations in New York on April 8, Carter had termed the technology transfer challenges as ‘surmountable’. The US team has been told that the US government has to assure on technology transfer. The US has promised help in the third sea-borne aircraft carrier technology.

Former Indian Defence Secretary Sekhar Dutt, during whose tenure the Defence Framework agreement was first signed in 2005, says: “Technology is one issue in which we can benefit from the US.”

What Carter and his team have promised under the much talked about Defence Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI), have been low-end products and not the transformative technology needed by India. The DTTI has basic technologies such as mini UAVs, which India may not even want and even rejected two of these.
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by chetak »

NRao wrote:
kit wrote:Have a question regarding the agreement signed with the US .. apparently Inia can refuse refuelling if against a friendly country .. Is the US supposed to declare for what purpose its warships and planes refuel ?..India can refuse only if it knows for what purpose .. so spy flights and special missions will continue per se .. without any notifications
As they do today, without any agreements.

I see no value in BECA. I cannot see a dire need for CISMOA (the Russian angle is bogus IMHO). The LSA, I can see value.

The LSA that they are asking for and actually want will turn us into a vassal state.

take for eg the arrangement that they have with the pakis. A significant part of a major paki airbase is sovereign US territory, manned and totally controlled by the US and it is completely off limits to the pakis. They resupply that facility at their own sweet will and wish, with the pakis having absolutely no say over the resupply flights or when they come in or what they carry in or out or how many people are based there on a temporary / transit basis, apart from the considerable permanent US staff, communication facilities and "defensive" capabilities.

WTF should we live with the LSA?? Any form of it will entail a long time US military presence on Indian soil, even for "disaster" management. Unless, of course, Modi plans to invade canada and we need to refuel at some US bases :wink:

It's like the camel and the tent story. Modi's great pontificating "friend" obama seems to be making very heavy weather of these foundation agreements.

If they need repairs and bunkering, give it to them on a case by case basis, as is being done now and be done with it. There is a considerable difference when are warships on "innocent " passage and otherwise.

They also want full "diplomatic" protection for all their military staff on Indian soil as part of the same agreement. After the cavity search of our diplomatic staff??, no way.

are we some effing coolie country like pakistan or what?? In some decades, we may overtake their economy.
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by member_29350 »

So on Twitter, we have news that 2 RAW officers have left for a large western country along with their families....so much for friendship
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Post by Vayutuvan »

TSJ: India can if Pakistan withdraws from Gilgit ballista and China gives back what is illegally ceded to it by Pakistan. The chance of pushing through was there right after 2001 when the entire world was sympathetic to the US. By then China has become a tough nut to crack but Gilgit balitistan could have been vacated by Pakistan. May be the geography doesn't work. You are the expert.

Why not Baluchistan to be separated from Pakistan? They have enough blood on their hands just like what happened in east Pakistan.
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