Finally, I do not think LSA, although a foundational agreement, has anything to do with purchasing US equipment.
Repairs, maintenance, calibration services - all of these would prolly need logistics from US M.I.C.
Finally, I do not think LSA, although a foundational agreement, has anything to do with purchasing US equipment.
Cosmo_R wrote:This was the same argument I heard in the 1950s about non-alignment and then came 1962:
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... china-war/
Does anyone really think we are better matched today against the PRC?
arshyam wrote:Count me in. If we had allied with the US back then, we would not have a nuclear weapons programme, a space programme, etc. We would have become like Japan, this elderly and likeable neighbourhood uncle who jumps at the sound of a barking street dog.
What explains India getting such a public lashing from US lawmakers on the eve of Modi's visit?
by Seema Sirohi
Days ahead of Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s fourth visit to the United States, its senators painted a dismal picture of India as a land of 12 million “slaves”, human rights abuses, gender violence and a country where civil society is under constant attack.
They said India was deliberately targeting Christian organisations and their “researchers” by harassing them, denying them visas and revoking their licenses. Religious intolerance and sectarian tensions in the country are increasing.
In equally harsh terms they dismissed Modi government’s economic reforms as inadequate and not truly “free market”. They complained about red tape, high tariffs, lack of market access for American companies, and inadequate protection for intellectual property.
Even India’s membership in the Nuclear Suppliers Group came in for criticism as Senator Ed Markey claimed an exemption for India would further “infuriate” Pakistan into making more nuclear weapons. There were also probing questions on India getting too close to Iran since Modi was just in Tehran.
Timed for maximum impact
It was not the kind of build-up New Delhi had anticipated for Modi’s visit but American lawmakers seemed determined to deliver a hard blow. Senator after senator rained down on Modi’s record just as the prime minister was marking his two years in government.
The questions were directed at Nisha Biswal, assistant secretary of state for South and Central Asia, who was testifying at a hearing of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on Indo-US relations. Biswal defended the relationship and tried to push back but it seemed the senators were determined to embarrass both the State Department and the Indian government.
Not for the last 15 years has India taken such a bashing on Capitol Hill, the home of the US Congress. It was reminiscent of the early 90s when the US Congress regularly attacked India for alleged human rights abuses in Jammu and Kashmir, largely at the behest of Pakistan’s lobbying.
To say the negative tone and content of the hearing were a surprise would be an understatement given the largely positive narrative of Indo-US relations. Officially, the two countries have a mature, strategic and full relationship covering just about every aspect of human endeavour.
But clearly not all is well. The Senate Foreign Relations Committee and its powerful Republican chairman, Bob Corker, sent a very public message: India’s domestic climate stinks with all the reported incidents against women, Dalits, Christians and Muslims.
The hearing was timed for maximum impact – exactly two weeks before Modi’s arrival in the American capital and on Capitol Hill.
Bubbling anger
According to a Congressional source, anger has been bubbling over the past year as reports kept surfacing about incidents of communal tension, lynchings, hangings and sedition charges being filed against students in India.
“Is this 2016 and a democracy with which we share values? Ford Foundation is in trouble. Greenpeace has been kicked out,” the Congressional aide continued. “If the State Department wants to hide things, it doesn’t mean the Congress will too,” he said, adding that pressure had come from constituents and the human rights community to raise questions on India’s record.
New Delhi’s recent decision to deny visas to members of the US Commission on International Religious Freedom, a quasi government body, to visit India also shaped senators’ thinking. It bolsters the feeling that the Indian government is uncooperative on a range of human rights issues, the aide said.
New Delhi doesn’t help even in “child abduction” cases. These cases mostly affect Indian American couples where a spouse flies off to India with the child and disappears to escape American courts and custody battles.
Biswal, the State Department’s representative, told the senators the Obama Administration raises these concerns privately with the Modi government but the challenges in India are huge. She added that Indian civil society was fighting back with a vociferous campaign against all forms of intolerance and intimidation.
That didn’t satisfy Chairman Corker, who is reportedly upset with India over the non-consummation, so far, of the Indo-US Civil Nuclear deal in the shape of a contract for an American reactor. If the business was good, some of the anger would subside.
Corker opened the hearing with a statement, which while noting the “overall trajectory” of relations as “positive,” stressed that “hopeful rhetoric” had “far exceeded actual tangible achievements.” He called for a “sober and pragmatic” approach, implying the Obama Administration’s approach was anything but.
‘Largest number of slaves’
“India also has the largest number of slaves. I am talking of people working for a dollar a day,” he said. “How does a country like this have 12 to 14 million slaves in the year 2016? How does that happen?” Corker pointedly asked. “I mean, seriously, do they have just zero prosecution abilities, zero law enforcement? I mean, how could this happen? It’s on that scale, it’s pretty incredible.”
The use of an emotionally loaded word like “slave” for various groups of oppressed people – from bonded and child labour to trafficked men and women, migrant workers under debt and child soldiers – is a relatively recent phenomenon. Western human rights activists have used the term “slaves” to shock and awe countries where these practices are prevalent and to gain attention in western capitals.
The term is a special hallmark of the Walk Free Foundation, an organisation started by Australian billionaire Andrew Forrest. The foundation publishes a “global slavery index” from which Senator Corker pulled the figure of 12 to 14 million slaves in India, according to an aide in his office.
He wasn’t the only one to raise difficult issues. Senator Ben Cardin, the ranking Democrat on the committee, said religious freedom, women and minority rights and press freedom were all under attack.
Senator Cory Gardner specifically asked about Compassion International, a Christian missionary organisation, which has been reportedly been targeted by the Indian government. Its assets have been seized after income tax raids and 12 separate visa applications have been denied, he said. “There seems to be a real crackdown on religious NGOs by the Indian government in the last year,” Gardner said.
Compassion International “sponsors” Indian children for education and its website clearly says it’s saving souls in the “name of Jesus.” It has been working in India since the 1960s.
Indian diplomats were unavailable for comment but they have been expecting this thunderstorm ever since reports about communal tensions, anti-Dalit incidents, ghar wapsi or reconversion drives to Hinduism, suicides and hangings began surfacing with alarming frequency. The problem is they can’t talk themselves out of this mess.
Butto put this public airing in context – the senators are, no doubt, responding to domestic pressures from the vast human rights community in the US. Some of them, like Corker, are also genuinely involved in efforts to highlight and end what they call “slavery.”
Modi’s past, while mostly set aside for political reasons, is not entirely forgotten by those who have a stake in shining the light on human rights issues. And since he hasn’t taken a clear, strong stand against the wild and communal elements in his larger family known as the Sangh parivar, American politicians have found an easy handle.
If Modi has political reasons for not curbing the rabid elements of the parivar, US lawmakers have their reasons for embarrassing him and his government
Lilo wrote:I think not she is a longtime watcher and in this particular piece brings out the contradictions of massa congress well (but only on the sly).Also gives pointers on the focus area's ex: the emerging discourse on slavery and the specific sources in massa pushing it.
A common and recurring dream of India . Americans is to be as powerful as the Jewish American lobby and to have the political muscle to influence US policy in favour of the mother country.
In this dream, the bid daddies of the Indian American community stride purposefully through the corridors of power — and doors open instantly. They walk in and tell the grey suits what they want and, miraculously, things get done. Cheques are written as thankyou notes and everyone is happy.
It is a dream that successive Indian governments have also dreamt, hoping it turns into reality as Indian Americans continue to prosper. Over the years, Indian prime ministers have carefully listened to various, often boastful, Indian American groups and encouraged the dream project.
Enter Narendra Modi , a prime minister who seems specially energised by the Indian diaspora using its heft for the benefit of India. Since he himself travelled the United States widely as a BJP functionary, made connections and stayed in the homes of BJP supporters, the community is eager to please "Narendra Bhai".
A Gift for Modi
A few Indian Americans decided to flex their financial muscle to bring one of their ongoing projects to fruition — getting the US Congress to pass a law that lifts India into the realm of America's very special friends in time for Modi's visit on June 7-8. It would be an appropriate gift since Modi is spending a day on Capitol Hill, addressing a joint meeting of the US Congress and being feted by Speaker of the House of Representatives Paul Ryan.
The main organisation behind the efforts is the US-India Security Council Inc (USISC), a group launched in 2010 by a few prominent Indian Americans. Equipped with the advice of expensive lobbyists, its members have been bustling around Washington, meeting senators and congressmen over the last three months and generally whispering that something big is afoot.
But this first real attempt to be like the legendary pro-Israel lobby has got mired in intrigue, backbiting and preemptive strikes, because another group — the US-India Business Council , an industry organisation of American companies — claimed credit for work that it didn't initiate. The president of USIBC , Mukesh Aghi, has raised eyebrows all around for his undiplomatic and eager bragging.
Not kosher and surely not a lesson one would draw from Jewish Americans who are organised nationally and locally, down to the village level, as it were. They donate money and time in a disciplined manner mostly to one organisation — American Israel Public Affairs Committee. AIPAC is the pro-Israel lobby the US Congress fears the most. Indian Americans, on the other hand, have too many organisations, working at cross purposes.
“President Obama will meet with Prime Minister Modi of India at the White House on Tuesday, June 7. The visit will highlight the deepening of the US-India relationship in key areas since the President’s visit to New Delhi in January 2015. The President looks forward to discussing progress made on our climate change and clean energy partnership, security and defence cooperation, and economic growth priorities,” according to a statement from the White House.
Modi had last visited the US in September 2015 following Obama’s trip to India as the Chief Guest for the Republic Day celebrations early last year.
This time the most important outcome of the Prime Minister’s visit is likely to be the signing of the defence logistics pact known as the Logistics Exchange Memorandum of Agreement (LEMOA).
The LEMOA, which is known as Logistics Support Agreement (LSA) in US, will enable the military of both countries to use each other’s military bases, naval warships and fighter jets.
Good point, I didn't even consider France, Japan seemed so aptViv S wrote:That said, speaking hypothetically, why exactly do you think we would have resembled Japan as an ally? Why not France?
JwalaMukhi wrote:The principal problem is Indian babucracy has shown mostly a supplicant behavior when dealing not just with US but across its spectrum of its dealings everywhere. It is mostly a product of Nehruvian generation and their carry over hanger-ons who are intent on applying emotional baggage when dealing in business-like manner is needed. Not so recently, one witnessed undue privileges provided without reciprocity and finally some course correction happened after the diplomat's malreatment.
Why do you think this has anything to do with signing these agreements? Can you elaborate on it some more? And how will signing these LEMOA or whatever combination of letters will address this "principal problem"?
Also, your categorisation of the opposition to these agreements as "mis-apprehension" is interesting. Would be nice to hear more on why you think these 'apprehensions' are 'misplaced'?
A common and recurring dream of India . Americans is to be as powerful as the Jewish American lobby and to have the political muscle to influence US policy in favour of the mother country.
In this dream, the bid daddies of the Indian American community stride purposefully through the corridors of power — and doors open instantly. They walk in and tell the grey suits what they want and, miraculously, things get done. Cheques are written as thankyou notes and everyone is happy.
...
FORMER CIA OFFICER ROBERT T CROWLEY: Now, now, Gregory, sometimes we can discuss serious business. There were times when we prevented terrible catastrophes and tried to secure more peace. We had trouble, you know, with India back in the 60s when they got uppity and started work on an atomic bomb. Loud mouthed cow-lovers bragging about how clever they were and how they, too, were going to be a great power in the world. The thing is, they were getting into bed with the Russians. Of course, Pakistan was in bed with the chinks so India had to find another bed partner. And we did not want them to have any kind of nuclear weaponry because God knows what they would have done with it. Probably strut their stuff like a Washington nigger with a brass watch. Probably nuke the Pakis. They're all a bunch of neo-coons anyway. Oh yes, and their head expert was fully capable of building a bomb and we knew just what he was up to. He was warned several times but what an arrogant prick that one was. Told our people to ****** off and then made it clear that no one would stop him and India from getting nuclear parity with the big boys. Loud mouths bring it all down on themselves. Do you know about any of this?
NRao wrote:Hillary Clinton will not be anti-India. In fact she lean towards India. But, since by nature she gets her way, I see her as being impatient. But she will not outwit someone like Modi.
I think the Donald will get along with India very well. Perhaps not all the time.
I see India doing very well , mostly because of Modi.
SSridhar wrote:There are some loopholes in the boasting by that CIA officer.
After Corson's death, Trento and a well-known Washington fix-lawyer went to Corson's bank, got into his safe deposit box and removed a manuscript entitled 'Zipper.' This manuscript, which dealt with Crowley's involvement in the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, vanished into a CIA burn-bag and the matter was considered to be closed forever.
The small group of CIA officials gathered at Trento's house to search through the Crowley papers, looking for documents that must not become public. A few were found but, to their consternation, a significant number of files Crowley was known to have had in his possession had simply vanished.
When published material concerning the CIA's actions against Kennedy became public in 2002, it was discovered to the CIA's horror, that the missing documents had been sent by an increasingly erratic Crowley to another person and these missing papers included devastating material on the CIA's activities in South East Asia to include drug running, money laundering and the maintenance of the notorious 'Regional Interrogation Centers' in Viet Nam and, worse still, the Zipper files proving the CIA’s active organization of the assassination of President John Kennedy..
A massive, preemptive disinformation campaign was readied, using government-friendly bloggers, CIA-paid "historians" and others, in the event that anything from this file ever surfaced. The best-laid plans often go astray and in this case, one of the compliant historians, a former government librarian who fancied himself a serious writer, began to tell his friends about the CIA plan to kill Kennedy and eventually, word of this began to leak out into the outside world.
Viv S wrote:Bah! Next you'll be claiming that Crowley's role in John F Kennedy's assassination is also an invention? And (the interviewer) Gregory Douglas' book proving that fact is just a work of fiction? Bury your head in the sand if you want, but the truth is out there! #Truthneverdies
RajeshA wrote:NRao wrote:Hillary Clinton will not be anti-India. In fact she lean towards India. But, since by nature she gets her way, I see her as being impatient. But she will not outwit someone like Modi.
I think the Donald will get along with India very well. Perhaps not all the time.
I see India doing very well , mostly because of Modi.
I am not sure whether HRC and DT are OT for this thread, but ...
On "Understanding the US-2" thread, there has been a discussion on this, so it would only be a repetition here. We should not forget what happened during the Bill Clinton Presidency - Robin Raphel in Kashmir. We should not forget Hillary Clinton went on a witch hunt after Modi, trying to dig up imaginary mass graves of Muslims slaughtered in 2002. We should not forget her organization gave full support to the "Rape Documentary" from BBC producer Leslee Udwin, whose job was to smear all Indian men as rapists. Hillary Clinton's most most trusted advisor, (and some say her sleeping mate) is Huma Abedin, a woman of Pakistan descent who grew up in Saudi Arabia and is considered close to Muslim Brotherhood.
Hillary is poison for India.
Yes she may put up a pretense of liking Indians and India, but she would continue to undermine our strength wherever possible. Yes, Hillary may throw a few nice words towards Indians, considering words are cheap, but she is anti-Indian to the core.
Under a President Hillary Clinton, we can expect to be talked down as huge abusers of minority rights and expect our exobranding as reckless evil Hindutva nationalists to go apace. US Presidents learned lately throwing a few bones of dehyphenation to Indians go a long way in winning us over. One cannot even expect that from Hillary Rodham Clinton.
Yagnasri wrote:This is more of a repeat discussion. But how fast we are forgetting "get Modi campaign" run by HC when she was in the SD. Her friend Huma is a closet Jihadist and Paki lover. She will have a big say with HC as President. Nuclear hardliners and greens also will have a great say under her. We can not "make coal miners to lose their jobs" in India and pressure on that front will be quite huge. HC and her gang are famous for using NGOs to attack India and these attacks will intensify.
TSJones wrote:actually he plane was shot down by an F-35 proto-type launched from a US carrier in the Med. it was then that the decision was made to bankrupt the American economy by ordering 1,000's of F-35s in order to cover up the horrible deed.
SSridhar wrote:I find a significant difference between 'Operation Zipper' and 'Operation Homi Bhabha' as far as the Crowley character was concerned. He gave actual documents to his journalist/historian friend regarding JFK whereas it was all oral when it came to Bhabha & Shastri.
In the review of CIA “Operation Zipper” in this book you will see CIA agents James J. Angleton and Robert T. Crowley planning the assassination of the president, beginning in early March of 1963. Before the end of March, according to the documents, J. Edgar Hoover of the FBI, Lyndon B. Johnson, Vice President, and General Lyman Lemnitzer, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, had been brought into the plan along with the Chicago Mafia and Israeli Mossad. - Link
RTC: How astute, Gregory. Let me tell you, my boy, the whole world would be far better off if some rag head set off an atomic bomb in downtown Tel Aviv during Passover. I know that sounds terrible but from my years of experience, that game would well be worth the candle. I tell you, if we don’t put a stop to their burrowing, treachery and high treason, those filthy Yids will drag us into a nasty war with the Arabs. I mean it. None of them care a fig about this country. Everything for that miserable habitat of warped trolls and nothing for anyone else. No wonder they have been hated and persecuted for thousands of years. The Romans had a wonderful chance to advance civilization by killing them all off but they missed their opportunity.
GD: The tsars should have chased them all into Siberia and we would have been spared Bolshevism.
RTC: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And now they want to kill off all the Arabs in the Near East and move into their homes. And they would expect us to help them. I tell you that if we don’t get our nose out of Israel’s hairy ass, the Arabs will come after us as well. America has no business over there and Israel is not our friend. America is full of white Christians and Jews hate all Christians and do their best to rape, loot and pillage us, all in the name of greater Israel. Well, not in my lifetime but maybe in yours, Gregory, in yours.
GD: If you send me the papers, I will do my best.
RTC: Expose and derail. They have already looted England and Poland and now they’re raping Russia and we’re next on the menu. And their creepy Mossad agents are crawling all over this country as well. The FBI knows about this so that’s one of the reasons to keep quiet around Kimmel. You tell him anything hot and juicy and Tom will burn the line to the headquarters. Once they have it, the Jews will have their hands on it in seconds and they can either put a few pounds of cocaine in your car or shoot your crippled mother as a warning. Say nothing and publish. - Link
SSridhar wrote:There are some loopholes in the boasting by that CIA officer.
1. First of all, the CIA guy is an unabashed racist who is talking to a journalist who is surprisingly unaware of anything about India. But, then he is an American and therefore his ignorance is understandable.
2. "We could have blown it up over Vienna but we decided the high mountains were much better for the bits and pieces to come down on." This looks to me too far fetched. The plane could have been brought down over the Mediterranean after take-off from Beirut. That they had precisely targetted the flight over Mont Blanc looks far fetched.
3. Looks to me like the boastful CIA officer is taking credit by exploiting a gullible journalist who it seems is unaware of any history or geography beyond the 10mile radius of his location.
Of course, it is well within CIA's capabilities and American arrogance to do these nasty things that the CIA officer boasts of.
There were times when we prevented
terrible catastrophes and tried to secure more peace. We had trouble,
you know, with India back in the 60s when they got uppity and started
work on an atomic bomb. Loud mouthed cow-lovers bragging about how
clever they were and how they, too, were going to be a great power in
the world. The thing is, they were getting into bed with the Russians.
Of course, Pakistan was in bed with the chinks so India had to find
another bed partner. And we did not want them to have any kind of
nuclear weaponry because God knows what they would have done with it.
Probably strut their stuff like a Washington nigger with a brass
watch. Probably nuke the Pakis. They're all a bunch of neo-coons
anyway. Oh yes, and their head expert was fully capable of building a
bomb and we knew just what he was up to. He was warned several times
but what an arrogant prick that one was. Told our people to ****** off
and then made it clear that no one would stop him and India from
getting nuclear parity with the big boys. Loud mouths bring it all
down on themselves. Do you know about any of this?
arshyam wrote:Cosmo_R wrote:This was the same argument I heard in the 1950s about non-alignment and then came 1962:
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... china-war/
Does anyone really think we are better matched today against the PRC?
Count me in. If we had allied with the US back then, we would not have a nuclear weapons programme, a space programme, etc. We would have become like Japan, this elderly and likeable neighbourhood uncle who jumps at the sound of a barking street dog. Oh, and as the good allies, we would have cheerily signed the NPT, CTBT, and MTCR and any other 'T's the western nations may have thrown our way, so as to have the crumbs of a civil nuclear energy program and a military stayed in the main through American imports. Agni, Brahmos, Tejas, Arihant, IRNSS? No siree! At best, we would have a tenuous nuke umbrella provided by the US, leaving us to shiver in our dhoties whether that umbrella would actually work in front of Chinese belligerence, which in turn, would be tightly coupled with the US economy. So we would stay uncertain about own security. Again, like Japan today. (I know counter-factuals can be written anyway, but I couldn't resist)
The point is, with our independent stance, we today have a credible missile programme, backed by a nuclear weapons programme, a triad with a second strike capability, all developed by ourselves (IP belongs to us only). Matched by a continental navigation system in case we need to go far off shore and deal with China. China knows that, and won't poke us too much, and we likewise. We don't need to worry if the Amirkhans will step up and help us in the event of a future Chinese aggression, since we are confident of having our gear to defend ourselves.
Do we have enough of it? Of course not. But that's mostly a factor of a small defence budget and lack of urgency. It's mostly our doing. But that is no reason to say that allying with the Americans will help us when simply believing in ourselves and investing more of our monies into production itself will go a long way.
So, answer your question vis-avis 1962, yes, we are better matched with the Chinese. We just don't seem to realize it.
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