India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

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sanjaykumar
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby sanjaykumar » 16 Jan 2016 00:31

Ahem....

Tulsa riots and the police 'presence'.

Philadelphia 1985

From Wiki

The resulting explosions ignited a fire that eventually destroyed approximately 65 nearby houses. The firefighters, who had earlier deluge-hosed the MOVE members in a failed attempt to evict them from the building, stood by as the fire caused by the bomb engulfed the first house and spread to others, having been given orders to let the fire burn. Despite the earlier drenching of the building by firefighters, officials said that they feared that MOVE would shoot at the firefighters.[6][17][1][18] Eleven people (John Africa, five other adults and five children aged 7 to 13) died in the resulting fire and more than 250 people were left homeless.[19] Ramona Africa, one of the two survivors, stated that police fired at those trying to escape.[20]
Fallout[edit]
Mayor Goode soon appointed an investigative commission called the PSIC (aka MOVE Commission), chaired by William H. Brown, III. Police commissioner Sambor resigned in November 1985, reporting that he felt that he was being made a "surrogate" by Goode.[21] The MOVE Commission issued its report on March 6, 1986. The report denounced the actions of the city government, stating that "Dropping a bomb on an occupied row house was unconscionable."[22] Following the release of the report, mayor Goode made a formal public apology.[23] No one from the city government was charged criminally.
In 1996, a federal jury ordered the city to pay a $1.5 million civil suit judgement to survivor Ramona Africa and relatives of two people killed in the bombing. The jury had found that the city used excessive force and violated the members' constitutional protections against unreasonable search and seizure.[19] Philadelphia was given the sobriquet "The City that Bombed Itself."[24][25]

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby KrishnaK » 16 Jan 2016 01:04

vayu tuvan wrote:Tsj: ok guaranteed was strong. Let me modify that to "very good chance". Difficult to keep on churning out same old same old smartphones when every has one. Enormous feature creep is not going to sell more. The social networking is a passing fad as much as the reality shows. So yes, SV is in a bubble. I am not saying that the entire U.S. Economy. How can I become rich/pauper overnight if I invest long term, eh?
If smartphones created an entire industry where none existed, why can't another such innovation come along ? In the end everything is a passing fad. The trick is to keep coming up with them.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Amber G. » 16 Jan 2016 02:34

Primus wrote:

3. If you got cancer, sure you probably died then and not that much has changed, you still die but you do that on a ventilator for weeks while your relatives decided who gets the life-insurance. Today nursing homes are nothing but ventilator-farms. Millions are still uninsured or under-insured.



When a member of my immediate family was diagnosed with cancer, our oncologist advised us, when I was trying to read up every thing I could about that particular form of cancer and its treatment, not to trust any text book which was written more than five years ago. According to the old text books we had just a few months or a year.

Well that was 20 years ago. Except for yearly checkup our life is perfectly normal.

As far as treatment options are concerned for cancer, things are even better now than 20 years ago.

TSJ is right. And I am glad. Many types of cancer, Hodgkins Lymphoma just to give one example, has pretty good prognosis (99% +ive outcome). If you read some of my posts regarding Chernobyl of Fukishima (those threads are archived in brf) you will know, Thyroid cancer was found to be 99+% treatable.

There is lot of nice work is done in US and India, and excellent cooperation between these two nations in this regard.
Last edited by Amber G. on 16 Jan 2016 02:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby TSJones » 16 Jan 2016 02:37

sanjaykumar wrote:Ahem....

Tulsa riots and the police 'presence'.

Philadelphia 1985

From Wiki

The resulting explosions ignited a fire that eventually destroyed approximately 65 nearby houses. The firefighters, who had earlier deluge-hosed the MOVE members in a failed attempt to evict them from the building, stood by as the fire caused by the bomb engulfed the first house and spread to others, having been given orders to let the fire burn. Despite the earlier drenching of the building by firefighters, officials said that they feared that MOVE would shoot at the firefighters.[6][17][1][18] Eleven people (John Africa, five other adults and five children aged 7 to 13) died in the resulting fire and more than 250 people were left homeless.[19] Ramona Africa, one of the two survivors, stated that police fired at those trying to escape.[20]
Fallout[edit]
Mayor Goode soon appointed an investigative commission called the PSIC (aka MOVE Commission), chaired by William H. Brown, III. Police commissioner Sambor resigned in November 1985, reporting that he felt that he was being made a "surrogate" by Goode.[21] The MOVE Commission issued its report on March 6, 1986. The report denounced the actions of the city government, stating that "Dropping a bomb on an occupied row house was unconscionable."[22] Following the release of the report, mayor Goode made a formal public apology.[23] No one from the city government was charged criminally.
In 1996, a federal jury ordered the city to pay a $1.5 million civil suit judgement to survivor Ramona Africa and relatives of two people killed in the bombing. The jury had found that the city used excessive force and violated the members' constitutional protections against unreasonable search and seizure.[19] Philadelphia was given the sobriquet "The City that Bombed Itself."[24][25]


mayor Goode was African American and he personally authorized what happened, this happened in an African american neighborhood after complaints by neighbors, all African American of MOVE harrassment. this was not red neck rampage but city government action by an African American administration.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Karan M » 16 Jan 2016 03:00


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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Shreeman » 16 Jan 2016 03:17

TSJ, all:

There was a rigidity in social relations for grown ups, but heck was rural india peaceful for children, women, the poor and destitute. I grew up as poor as one can get, but no one died of hunger around. And we were your so hated upper-classes by religion. I dont recall kids bothering with any of that. The poorest were fed and cared for enough by an invisible social net. No one forced religion on anyone.

There was no electricity. There were many many diseases. There was high child mortality. Grown up women were in the background. There was an equal lack of education for rich, poor, male or female. There was no road. Houses were mud. Buses couldnt come within miles. Camels transported people.

As far as society goes though, you remembered your seven generations by name and place and practically everyone else in the village and in the neighboring ones. You could drink ground water. Everyone did. You could eat wild fruit. You could and did roam and explore and the worst that could happen was you got lost and died of thirst alone in the desert.

Folks hadnt been within a mile of anything that flew. Most had never boarded a bus. The best weapon around was a sword and very few had them and fewer knew how to use them. A stick was a deterrent enough, even against a cobra.

There was may be one fight a year, and it didnt cause any real blood. It was usually over water. It was an incredibly poor but also incredibly peaceful time. People navigated by stars. Light pollution was not a thing, there was a great movie on the biggest screen if you just turned your head up.

Yes, there is technology. But morality and truth are dead. Technology has killed civilization.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Amber G. » 16 Jan 2016 03:20

TSJones wrote:..
I remember the '60's quit well....



TSJ - I too do remember 60's quite well :). Spent about half of that decade in India and the later half in US.
(It was very rare in those days but a US university was interested in me and I had a chance to do my under graduate studies in US but my parents did not let me go. I did come to US for my graduate studies 4 years later).

Few comments -

- Yes, I too found dorm rooms small and noisy but I spent most my time in my office or class rooms.
- Long distance to India was $12 for a 3 minute call (It did not matter much as my parents did not have a phone in India then)
- My first car, I bought for $25, and it did run pretty well (I also owned a 65 mustang later). In one summer I worked at Argonne national lab. As it is usual in those days, I bought a Dodge Dart for $80 after flying (students then flew at 50% of the cost, so it was cheaper than bus ride) to Chicago from an ad. Drove the car to lab and parked the car inside the lab. A security personal came and looked at my car with interest. I was scared. (This being a defense lab). It turned out that the policeman looked at the same ad and was also interested in that car but I bought it before he did. I promised him, after summer when I leave, I will sell the car to him for $80.
- Pizza in 1967 was quite popular. Many such shops in Boston or NY.
- There were more TV channels and by 1967 one can even find color TV set. (We had one 19" big screen CRT in Student Union)
- Punch cards were still used, but by 67, in few top schools in US we had terminals in lab, (and online editor).
- In New York, we can watch a movie and a show in Radio City Music hall for $6.
- There were quite a few international students even then in bigger US universities, but when some of us went for a long car trip, most of places like Alabama NEVER seen any people like us. People were very friendly though. (Some of physics students then went to a popular summer school/conference in Boulder Colorado. I took advantage and a few of us made an annual pilgrimage driving both ways and spending lot of time on the road)

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Viv S » 16 Jan 2016 03:49

Shreeman wrote:TSJ, all:

There was a rigidity in social relations for grown ups, but heck was rural india peaceful for children, women, the poor and destitute.

'Rural India' is a rather broad term. Life in rural Punjab or Kerala, was very different from that at the very bottom of the social pyramid in eastern UP or Bihar.

Yes, there is technology. But morality and truth are dead. Technology has killed civilization.

On the contrary, the most tolerant, most non-violent, most enlightened time in human history, despite the regressing sense of community, is today. Both for the world (Middle-East excepted) and for India. And I believe tomorrow will be better still*.

Heck just the position of women itself is a world apart. That's half our population, not even a minority. No offence, but I feel nostalgic recollections of times past are often coloured by a fond memories of happier days - childhood, youth and such, which more often than not don't stand up to a cold hard appraisal of facts.


*Doesn't apply to the environment though, which we have well and truly ruined.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby member_29218 » 16 Jan 2016 04:17

vayu tuvan wrote:Primus: good post. One not though - I thonk US education system at all levels is still better than lots of countries including China. Higher education is still the best in the world, if we are talking about averages.

Decline of the U.S. Is not going to happen while I am alive. It will take a long time - hundreds of years - unless there is a black swan event Jihadi delivered nuc or biological weapon or natural calamity. India is on the rise. Only two countries worth living in the near future for the next seven generations. But we are all going to be dead anyway.


VT, most indices suggest that the US education system is no longer what it used to be, Here is just one

It is all about comparisons. I am not suggesting the US is going to be a non-entity any time soon. However, it is no longer at the pinnacle it occupied in the 60s and the rest of the world is catching up fast. The world is a far different place today than it used to be 50 yrs ago.

Part of the 'greatness' of the US is due to the vast amount of natural resources it holds with a relatively small population that has been strictly controlled and manipulated over the centuries. It is only now that natural demographics are beginning to exert themselves, with 2013 being the first year that more colored babies than white were born in the country.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby member_29218 » 16 Jan 2016 04:33

Amber G. wrote:
Primus wrote:

3. If you got cancer, sure you probably died then and not that much has changed, you still die but you do that on a ventilator for weeks while your relatives decided who gets the life-insurance. Today nursing homes are nothing but ventilator-farms. Millions are still uninsured or under-insured.



When a member of my immediate family was diagnosed with cancer, our oncologist advised us, when I was trying to read up every thing I could about that particular form of cancer and its treatment, not to trust any text book which was written more than five years ago. According to the old text books we had just a few months or a year.

Well that was 20 years ago. Except for yearly checkup our life is perfectly normal.

As far as treatment options are concerned for cancer, things are even better now than 20 years ago.

TSJ is right. And I am glad. Many types of cancer, Hodgkins Lymphoma just to give one example, has pretty good prognosis (99% +ive outcome). If you read some of my posts regarding Chernobyl of Fukishima (those threads are archived in brf) you will know, Thyroid cancer was found to be 99+% treatable.

There is lot of nice work is done in US and India, and excellent cooperation between these two nations in this regard.


Amber Ji, I am in the field and ought to know. Granted many cancer victims have a better chance today but not in a 'global' sense. Treatment of NHL or Hodgkin's lymphoma has not really changed since the 70s. CHOPP and MOPP (or minor variations thereof) are still quite useful and the mainstay of therapy in many protocols.

Each cancer in any given individual is a different biological entity. It all depends on the organ involved and the stage at diagnosis. Many cancers are still hopelessly incurable today as they were in the 60s.

This is not to say healthcare has been stagnant, far from it. But if you look at the amount of money involved, I daresay that your ROI is pretty paltry. Please visit an ICU in any hospital ine US, or a 'nursing home' if you like. Nothing like seeing it for yourself.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby sanjaykumar » 16 Jan 2016 04:38

Police commissioner Sambor was not black. He authorised military C4 plastics to be used as a drop bomb on a city property against civilians. Is there a record of C4 being used against white citizens? ( I mean the query to elicit information, not necessarily rhetorical).

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby KrishnaK » 16 Jan 2016 04:43

Viv S wrote:
Shreeman wrote:TSJ, all:

There was a rigidity in social relations for grown ups, but heck was rural india peaceful for children, women, the poor and destitute.

'Rural India' is a rather broad term. Life in rural Punjab or Kerala, was very different from that at the very bottom of the social pyramid in eastern UP or Bihar.

Yes, there is technology. But morality and truth are dead. Technology has killed civilization.

On the contrary, the most tolerant, most non-violent, most enlightened time in human history, despite the regressing sense of community, is today. Both for the world (Middle-East excepted) and for India. And I believe tomorrow will be better still*.

Heck just the position of women itself is a world apart. That's half our population, not even a minority. No offence, but I feel nostalgic recollections of times past are often coloured by a fond memories of happier days - childhood, youth and such, which more often than not don't stand up to a cold hard appraisal of facts.


*Doesn't apply to the environment though, which we have well and truly ruined.
Seems to be a very common fantasy - the past was better.

rural india peaceful for children, women, the poor and destitute
:rotfl:

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby member_29218 » 16 Jan 2016 04:55

TSJones wrote:mayor Goode was African American and he personally authorized what happened, this happened in an African american neighborhood after complaints by neighbors, all African American of MOVE harrassment. this was not red neck rampage but city government action by an African American administration.



Awww.... TSJ, do you seriously intend to contest the role of the white man in the tragic history of this great nation (I refer to the adjective in praise of the land, not the people necessarily)?

I mean the terrible exploitation, enslavement, rape and plunder of native and forcibly abducted human beings from Africa by the white man is well known. You could get away by saying it was 'a long time ago'.

What do you say about the 20th century, in living memory of many people?

After the Trail of Tears, the Tuskegee Experiment, lynchings within our own lifetimes, the huge racial inequalities that exist even today, you still feel everything is 'hunky dory'?

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Amber G. » 16 Jan 2016 05:06

Primus wrote:
Amber Ji, I am in the field and ought to know. Granted many cancer victims have a better chance today but not in a 'global' sense. Treatment of NHL or Hodgkin's lymphoma has not really changed since the 70s. CHOPP and MOPP (or minor variations thereof) are still quite useful and the mainstay of therapy in many protocols.

Each cancer in any given individual is a different biological entity. It all depends on the organ involved and the stage at diagnosis. Many cancers are still hopelessly incurable today as they were in the 60s.

.

With respect, even if you say in you are in the field, it is obvious that you DO NOT know. Any good scientist will know that "use of authority as a means of argument is very poor".

(As an aside, I have several doctors in my family including my sister and Daughter-in-law. One is oncologist in a top US place - but that is not necessary. Anyone can check/read medical text books)

Just few things -

TSJ was talking about 60's not 70's, and ABVD regiment used in 90's is quite different from MOPP or CHOPP you are referring. You do not have to take my word for this, just check out PDQ - NCI's Comprehensive Database.

Actually The late 1970s and 80s most came to recognition adverse effects associated with MOPP and radiation therapy (some of which were not apparent at that time treatment). This time period also featured another major advance in an alternative four-drug chemotherapy regimen (doxorubicin, bleomycin, vinblastine, and dacarbazine).

I am pointing it out here, because I think, if you are in the profession, it is extremely irresponsible.
to make statements like "Many cancers are still hopelessly incurable today as they were in the 60s." Sure some cases (eg Brain, lung etc) this may be somewhat true, for many is is completely false. Ask any one in oncology field - she will tell you, for types like colon, breast, NHL the median survival times >10 years... and survival rate has improved something like about 20 fold for some in last few decades.

Others - PLEASE do your own reading and checking
***
For interested let me just quote a small piece from December 2008 article.

Today, children, adolescents, and young and older adults worldwide routinely survive Hodgkin lymphoma with modern treatment. Current efforts seek to maintain optimal health for these survivors, to define the least complicated cures for newly diagnosed patients, and, ultimately, to better understand risks for and prevention of this disease.


From: 50 Years in Hematology: Research That Revolutionized Patient Care.

Primusji - if you don't mind telling us -which field are you in?. Thanks.
Last edited by Amber G. on 16 Jan 2016 05:51, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby TSJones » 16 Jan 2016 05:19

Primus wrote:Awww.... TSJ, do you seriously intend to contest the role of the white man in the tragic history of this great nation (I refer to the adjective in praise of the land, not the people necessarily)?

I mean the terrible exploitation, enslavement, rape and plunder of native and forcibly abducted human beings from Africa by the white man is well known. You could get away by saying it was 'a long time ago'.

What do you say about the 20th century, in living memory of many people?

After the Trail of Tears, the Tuskegee Experiment, lynchings within our own lifetimes, the huge racial inequalities that exist even today, you still feel everything is 'hunky dory'?


Leipzig happened a few days ago. Are you saying whites in the US could go on a rampage like that now? If you are going to imply that Leipzig was in response to recent immigration, fine. But it won't happen in the US. Not even after the "wildings" by African Americans in Milwaukee, NYC,Detroit, etc. Just not gonna happen. There is no *modern* day comparison.

Black on white crime is a huge problem in the US. Nobody wants to talk bout it, nobody wants it in the news, everybody wants to ignore it. the government will not keep statistics on it. Maybe it will go away if we give them enough social services, eh?
Last edited by TSJones on 16 Jan 2016 05:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby sanjaykumar » 16 Jan 2016 05:20

Primus, if you are a physician, I would keep my mouth firmly shut. The 'civilians' are heavily invested in the cancer is treatable paradigm. There is a duty sometimes to be oblique to the point of being laconic.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby member_29218 » 16 Jan 2016 06:15

TSJones wrote:
Leipzig happened a few days ago. Are you saying whites in the US could go on a rampage like that now? If you are going to imply that Leipzig was in response to recent immigration, fine. But it won't happen in the US. Not even after the "wildings" by African Americans in Milwaukee, NYC,Detroit, etc. Just not gonna happen. There is no *modern* day comparison.

Black on white crime is a huge problem in the US. Nobody wants to talk bout it, nobody wants it in the news, everybody wants to ignore it. the government will not keep statistics on it. Maybe it will go away if we give them enough social services, eh?


So what you are saying is that after 245 years of subjugation and enslavement of an entire race of human beings, you are upset that they are retaliating? The vast majority of blacks in the US were brought here by force, against their will, by the white man, subjected to the most inhuman conditions and now the boot is somewhat on the other foot.

Do you know that at least a third if not more of the blacks in this country (descendants of slaves, not recent Haitians) have white genes, thanks to the constant rape of their monthers by their masters?

The white man today is more 'sophisticated' than in the 60s or even later. The presence of the internet and social media means they can no longer look innocent if they go on a rampage, as they have done over the centuries in all native lands.

So no, Leipzig will not happen today. Enough has happened over the past five hundred years across the world and the non-white people are fed up. If the English were to attempt another East India Company today they would be thrown out on their a$$es.

Here is what I suggest.

Go to South Africa, see the plight of the black man, where entire generations have been lost to the white man's greed and cruelty. Talk to a few older black people. Go to the hinterlands, not to Johannesburg or Capetown. Maybe you will learn a bit more about real history.

I have, and it moved me more than I thought it would.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby member_29218 » 16 Jan 2016 06:16

sanjaykumar wrote:Primus, if you are a physician, I would keep my mouth firmly shut. The 'civilians' are heavily invested in the cancer is treatable paradigm. There is a duty sometimes to be oblique to the point of being laconic.


Point taken.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby UlanBatori » 16 Jan 2016 06:24

The vast majority of blacks in the US were brought here by force, against their will, by the white man

:roll: er... they are mostly born in the US... :roll:

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Amber G. » 16 Jan 2016 06:27

Primus wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:Primus, if you are a physician, I would keep my mouth firmly shut. The 'civilians' are heavily invested in the cancer is treatable paradigm. There is a duty sometimes to be oblique to the point of being laconic.


Point taken.


Primusji - How about a clear honest response?
primus wrote:Treatment of NHL or Hodgkin's lymphoma has not really changed since the 70s. CHOPP and MOPP (or minor variations thereof) are still quite useful and the mainstay of therapy in many protocols.


While: from: Hodgkin's Chemotherapy - MOPP
There is 20% chance of developing a second cancer .... MOPP treatment. As a result, MOPP is rarely used any more for treatment for Hodgkin's.


How do you reconcile these statements?

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Amber G. » 16 Jan 2016 06:30

UlanBatori wrote:
The vast majority of blacks in the US were brought here by force, against their will, by the white man

:roll: er... they are mostly born in the US... :roll:

UBji - But then, why let logic, facts get in the way of narrative?

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby sanjaykumar » 16 Jan 2016 06:40

Certainly once born in these States, all black men are endowed with the inalienable right to life and liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Only many Africans born in African cities can expect better longevity than blacks born in the richest nation ever.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby disha » 16 Jan 2016 06:54

Amber G and TSJ'g., are your points that Obama is better because he got us iPhone 6?

The march of the technology will continue., but Mort'ji's charts on economic indicators better explains why Trump has got the vote and now is a shoe-in.

Regarding Cancer and the falling mortality rate in developed countries like US and Europe - TSJ'g - you should really really really thank one person - Yellapragada Subbarao. Maybe you are living because Subbarao lived. Poor bloke - he was denied tenure in Harvard and was an Indian citizen when he died in US. He should have been given the Nobull prize. It will be great if Harvard sets up a chair and funds some 100 unwashed desis to study bio-chemistry for 6 years. ;-)

Amber'G'ji - recently - just a few weeks back - I was at the cremation of a young friend of mine., death by cancer. Yes certain cancer treatments like childhood leukemia (know of one!) has higher chances of surviving., but just as some cancer mortality rates have been declining., some have stabilized and some have actually shown increase! Cancer is a tough disease and is rightly called the emperor of maladies. Yes, there is hope but not always and not for all. So to state that cancer is 'curable' is a lie. The question to ask is - 'can one survive Cancer?' And the answer is - 'It depends'.
Last edited by disha on 16 Jan 2016 07:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby member_29218 » 16 Jan 2016 06:57

UlanBatori wrote:
The vast majority of blacks in the US were brought here by force, against their will, by the white man

:roll: er... they are mostly born in the US... :roll:


The reference was to immigrants, voluntary or involuntary, in comparison to the whites. That should have been obvious.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby member_29218 » 16 Jan 2016 07:09

Amber G. wrote:
Primusji - How about a clear honest response?
primus wrote:Treatment of NHL or Hodgkin's lymphoma has not really changed since the 70s. CHOPP and MOPP (or minor variations thereof) are still quite useful and the mainstay of therapy in many protocols.


While: from: Hodgkin's Chemotherapy - MOPP
There is 20% chance of developing a second cancer .... MOPP treatment. As a result, MOPP is rarely used any more for treatment for Hodgkin's.


How do you reconcile these statements?


I don't know what happened to my earlier post on this.

Amber Ji, my apologies, wrong language, 'mainstay' was the wrong phrase, call it written without thinking. But variations of CHOP are still used, I know, my father received exactly that 10 yrs ago for his lymphoma.

On a larger note, I am sure you are aware that treatment of cancer is a multidisciplinary approach and chemotherapy is only a part of it, in some cancers, it has absolutely no role at all, even after all the research and money that is thrown into it. Surgery may be the best option or radiation or antibodies etc.

It is incorrect to assume (IMHO) that everything in medical journals or textbooks is true. There are many things in the field of medicine, especially in the treatment of disease that are unknown, uncertain and some are possibly outright dangerous. And yet we swear by them. Research is often murky, motivated by reasons that are far from altruistic, the results obfuscated to the benefit of vested interests in collaboration and collusion with others of the same ilk.

I could cite many examples and post links, but let us leave it for now.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby member_29218 » 16 Jan 2016 07:21

sanjaykumar wrote:Certainly once born in these States, all black men are endowed with the inalienable right to life and liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Only many Africans born in African cities can expect better longevity than blacks born in the richest nation ever.


Probably posted before, but just in case: New England Journal 1990:

Black men in Harlem less likely to reach age 65 than men in Bangla Desh

Older article, but update (1996) indicate not a great improvement in the racial divide.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Amber G. » 16 Jan 2016 07:24

disha wrote:Amber G and TSJ'g., are your points that Obama is better because he got us iPhone 6?

[speechless] My points are pretty clear and were articulated, if all you get from this is above situation is hopeless and sorry I can not help you except to say that read the posts again. May be it will help.


Amber'G'ji - recently - just a few weeks back - I was at the cremation of a young friend of mine., death by cancer...

My condolences. Statistically 20% of all of us will get this at one time, so this is more important than scoring some debating points. (Like most, I also have lost many relatives and friends - some needlessly because they did not get the right care)

If a loved is diagnosed with this my advice: Please do get my point of the post.. read the literature. PDQ is a nice resource. It has a section which is for doctors (giving all the latest data) and another section for patients (where the information is in less technical form). Get to a GOOD doctor, and by good I mean good - do some background checking. (If (s)he is insecure enough to brush your questions - do not hesitate to find second/third opinion. Most important, if some one is still in stone-age (and have not kept up-to-date) find the one who is not.

As our oncologist told us 20 years ago, when my family member was diagnosed with a type of cancer which, our oncologist told us that we were lucky that it was diagnosed early (thanks to our primary doctor who did that "just in case" biopsy) and prognosis is very good. He was right.
(This is not an isolated case, as I said before, some forms of cancers have very good prognosis -specially if caught early and you have good doctor).
Last edited by Amber G. on 16 Jan 2016 07:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby shiv » 16 Jan 2016 07:35

Sorry to butt in here.

The expression "reduced mortality from cancer" needs to be explained for complete disclosure. I mean like if everyone stops driving all motor vehicles we will have reduced mortality from road traffic accidents.

I am certain overall mortality from cancer (in the US) has likely declined because of greater awareness of the risks of smoking, greater awareness and monitoring of breast, cervix and colon cancer. These would go in the "preventive healthcare" category.

Treatment wise - yes of course there have been some advances in chemotherapy and other treatments that have led to gains.

But the general statement "cancer mortality rates have fallen" should not be taken as an indicator that it applies in a generic sense to any person with any cancer. To that extent the statement that cancer mortality rates have fallen is hype/propaganda that will unfortunately raise false hopes. Cancer is still a problem and a vivid illustration of that can be seen from what has been in the news for the last few days. David Bowie dies of cancer at 69, and Celine Dion's husband at 73. Earlier Steve Jobs died at 56. US average life expectancy is 78.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby NRao » 16 Jan 2016 07:54

And .................. just two days ago the Prez, Himself, appointed his VPrez to head an effort to stop cancer.

Still a problem.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Paul » 16 Jan 2016 07:58

^^OT..As my cousin from rural Tumkur in Karnataka says, when he was in school, if a car went by, the entire class would come out to see the invention.

Now even if a plane were to fly over the place, nobody would even bother to look up...It is another matter that a HAL factory is now coming up a few km from where he lives..that is how much people thinking has changed in rural India in the last 30 - 40 years.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Amber G. » 16 Jan 2016 08:01

Shivji - Thanks.

Your points are well understood, and I think I have been very clear (or let the link show what it means).

Another point we may have not noted is the big advance in diagnostic techniques (PET scan, CT-scan, Cs-scan and what not).. so it is discovered early when it is easier to treat.

Okay given all that.. let me just pose some very specific questions and see what is your take. (Thanks in advance)

(I do have some very close friends in India who are oncologists, and since cancer is a problem in India as well as in US we some times talk).

Take thyroid cancer for example, what is the prognosis/stats in India. (US statistics 98+% 10 year)-
Hodgkins what are the stats in India. Do people still use MOPP as primary regiment?

Thanks in advance.

A tidbit: For Hodgkins (or may be lymphoma in general), one can give thanks to chemical warfare. The first chemotherapy drug came from, yes, mustard gas. (A soldier who was exposed, got cured to doctor's amazement). The 'M' of "MOPP" indeed stands for "mustard(something)".

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby member_26011 » 16 Jan 2016 08:22

So far, Regiment:2, Regimen:0. Before a rout, bliss to take this to burkha?

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby sanjaykumar » 16 Jan 2016 08:37

It most definitely does help to be informed of some key concepts in medicine, an opinion without study is just that.


One very important concept is lead time bias. Wiki does an adequate job.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_time_bias

There is also developing a concept of what can be called indolent tumours. Tumours that may be read as malignant on patholgy but in their natural history will involute.

Thus the woman who was diagnosed in the 1970s and survives 40 years with breast cancer may in fact be more a beneficiary of these two factors, one an artefact the other biology that we dont understand, than the oncologist's skill.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby shiv » 16 Jan 2016 08:40

Amberji many cancers are well outside my field but I do come across bowel, breast and occasionally thyroid cancers in my practice. It is years since I heard the acronym MOPP and if I am not mistaken M is for Methotrexate (or it may be Mustine I don't know and wil not bother Googling!) , and OPP being Oncovin (Vincristine), Procarbazine and Prednisolone. The C in COPP used to be Cyclophosphamide and I guess that is the Mustard gas relative.

One must not forget that "mortality" is actually "mortality rate" - a statistic that is calculated something like cancer deaths per 100,000 population. If you take the 1955 rate and the 2015 rate, the latter will be better, Hence "reduced mortality"

India has a different set of cancers. Cervical cancer is rampant but PAP smear monitoring and immunization against papilloma virus is surely going to change the picture. The other thing we see is oral and gullet cancers. They are debilitating and painful killers and treatment is often mutilating. Betel and tobacco chewing are responsible for many. Attacking that is likely to reduce the incidence and therefore mortality. Smoking continues in India and is increasing among women and that will have a blowback down the line.

India has a set of infection related cancers which include hepatitis B and C both of which can lead to liver cancer which is often detected late. The only way mortality would get reduced is either by prevention of hepatitis or early detection and resection - which happens in India but only in specialized urban centers. Another infection related cancer is Cervical cancer which I have mentioned already. Advances in surgery and anaesthesia now allow routine surgery to remove liver and other tumours which was previously thought difficult. Must not forget that a man with a "weak heart" and a cancer in 1950 may have died whether he was left alone or operated. Now he will get a stent for his coronaries and have his tumour removed and survive surgery

Colon cancer incidence used to be low in India but is rising. This might possibly a result of increased meat and fat consumption but that is speculation on my part. No proof offered. The association between red meat, especially beef and colon cancer is known. Colon cancers are "relatively" amenable to cure if detected early.

Also, because the usual causes of human death like infections, diabetes and heart disease have come under control, people are living longer and cancers are getting more attention. There are some "age associated cancers" including Prostate cancer and some leukemias that are probably increasingly seen because of people living longer.

Finally I must point out that the medical profession has in some ways changed its attitude towards some cancers. For some cancers the aim is simply to keep it under control until the patient dies of something else. Prostatic cancer is one such thing. It looks like breast cancer too is like this with a propensity for the thing to reappear after long periods of time despite what was thought to be a cure.

When I was a young student we were taught about breast cancer cures and only much later I realized that "cures" were simply people who had survived for 5 years. Later the medical profession started talking about 10 year and 25 year survival but it must be recalled that research techniques and coordination between research centers (like CERN or multiple hospitals across countries) has developed only in the last 30-40 years or so during your lifetime and mine.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Amber G. » 16 Jan 2016 08:50

Shivji, ^^^ Thanks for taking time and responding. Really appreciate.

Just a quick note:

shiv wrote: It is years since I heard the acronym MOPP and if I am not mistaken M is for Methotrexate (or it may be Mustine I don't know and wil not bother Googling!) , and OPP being Oncovin (Vincristine), Procarbazine and Prednisolone. The C in COPP used to be Cyclophosphamide and I guess that is the Mustard gas relative.

.



from :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOPP_(chemotherapy)

(M)ustargen (also known as mechlorethamine, chlormethine, mustine, nitrogen mustard, or MSD)
(O)ncovin (also known as Vincristine or VCR)
(P)rocarbazine (also known as Matulane or Natulan)
(P)rednisone (also known as Deltasone or Orasone)

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby TSJones » 16 Jan 2016 09:13

I think we have made great strides against cancer due to environment and lifestyle causation. But cancer due to genetics remains extremely hard to cure (if cure is the appropriate word).

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Shreeman » 16 Jan 2016 09:21

^^^ This is a subject where someone you know, as shiv knows, has personally contributed to a major stride. Oh well, may be another storytime day, that story may be worth telling.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Lilo » 16 Jan 2016 12:14

Why Alabama Police Officer Charged With Assaulting Unarmed Indian Grandfather Was Acquitted

HUNTSVILLE -- A federal judge on Wednesday threw out a civil rights case against an Alabama police officer accused of using excessive force on an Indian man.

U.S. District Judge Madeline Haikala granted a motion to acquit Madison police officer Eric Parker after his two previous trials ended in hung juries.

In her 92-page opinion, Haikala said evidence that was presented during Parker's two trials didn't eliminate reasonable doubt that Parker was guilty of a crime.

The judge expressed regret for what happened to Patel but also empathised with Parker. She said: "If Mr. Parker or Mr. Patel could take that time back, both would surely do things differently and avoid the events that have forever changed both of their lives." {Judge: Go find a time machine! :rotfl: }

AL.com reported: "The first trial ended with a jury split along race and gender. Ten white males pushed to acquit and two black female jurors pushed for guilty. The second trial saw both sides grew more divisive, as Tuten opined in his opening statements for the defense: "When you come to the U.S. we expect you to follow our laws and speak our language. Mr. Patel bears as much responsibility for this as anyone." :lol:

Parker had slammed 58-year-old Sureshbhai Patel down face first during a suspicious person investigation in February. The incident was recorded on cameras inside patrol vehicles and Patel was injured in the takedown.

Parker has testified that Patel tried to pull away from him, indicating he may have been up to no good.

Patel has said through an interpreter that he doesn't speak English and couldn't understand officers' orders.

Excerpts from the judgment, published in Alabama-based AL.com said that Haikala, however, opined, "Trial testimony indicates that Mr. Patel had the opportunity to become familiar with simple English commands like 'stop' and 'come' because Mr. Patel had visited his son in Alabama twice before Mr. Patel moved to the United States, the more recent visit lasting eight months."

Parker had testified that Patel's actions and appearance were "in sequence" with those of a burglar. :lol: He told jurors, Patel tried walking away and wouldn't answer questions when officers approached him. Parker has said he was suspicious when Patel reached for his pockets and when he pulled one of his hands free during a pat-down.

While justifying that Parker was not out of line while intercepting Sureshbhai Patel and then using force on him, the judgment said that officers are mostly trained to be alert and prompt in situations where they get a call about suspicious activity. The judgment read: "Relying on his twenty years of experience :lol: as a patrol officer, Officer Charles Spence, one of the officers who responded to the “check subject” call, stated that an officer who responds to a check subject call does not know what to expect “because you don’t know the situation you are going into. Any situation we go into usually is totally unknown. All right? Unknown mental status, unknown behavioral status, unknown weapons, knives, drugs.”

Patel wasn't armed and suffered a spinal injury when he was thrown down face-first on a lawn. During the first trial, Parker said he lost his balance and fell on top of the man.

However, Haikala emphasised that Parker, while pinning down Patel, had apparently tried his best to protect him from grievous hurt. The judgment said, "Officer Parker also testified that as he began to execute the takedown, he directed his body toward the grass and away from the concrete sidewalk because he did not want Mr. Patel to hit the hard concrete. The dashcam video confirms that Officer Parker tried to direct Mr. Patel's fall to the grass rather than the sidewalk."

Jurors watched police video that shows an officer knocking Patel's legs out from under him and pushing him face-first to the ground. Patel said his arms and legs went numb after the impact, and he could not stand on his own. Parker's colleagues had given conflicting testimony on whether the takedown violated department policy or was necessary.

The judgment reads: "The dashcam video contradicts Mr. Patel's adamant testimony that he walked away from the officers only once and he took only two steps, evidence that is particularly damaging to Mr. Patel's credibility because the record demonstrates that counsel for the Government showed Mr. Patel the enhanced dashcam video the morning before he testified, and that video confirms that Mr. Patel walked away three times before the takedown. Mr. Patel may not have understood the questions that the interpreter was conveying to him, or Mr. Patel simply may not want to acknowledge that he walked away more than once and took more than two steps. In either case, his incredible testimony undercuts not only his assertion that he did not walk away from the police but also his testimony that he did not jerk his arms away from Officer Parker while Officer Parker tried to restrain his hands for a pat down."

The judge also made the observation that while officers know that when a person says he doesn't understand English, he may have a problem communicating, they are also trained to not trust the subject blindly. Especially if the subject has been accused of being 'suspicious' in a call received by the police.

"When examining the totality of the circumstances concerning use of force, an officer may take into account the fact that an individual who is the subject of a suspicious person call disregards commands and walks away from officers. Officers are trained that armed subjects will be evasive and will refuse to answer questions. In evaluating a subject’s compliance with commands, an officer must consider the possibility that a person who indicates that he cannot speak English or otherwise has a challenge communicating may not understand an officer’s commands, but police do not assume that a subject who states that he does not speak English (or experiences some other difficulty communicating) is telling the truth."

She also noted that Patel had stepped out without identification, for which Parker could have arrested him but didn't.

Jurors deliberated for days in both trials and Parker's attorney Robert Tuten said after the second mistrial in November that the length of the jury's discussions highlights the complexity of the case. Tuten has called the case an unfortunate escalation of police tactics.

The police had received a call from one of Patel's neighbours saying that he had spotted a 'skinny, 'black' man walking around the area suspiciously on February 6, 2015.

The website also reported that Parker 'still faces a state charge of misdemeanor assault in Limestone County'.


Murica the land of the Free the home of the Brave {onlee while assaulting 60 year old frail old men walking on the sidewalk for "suspicious activity"}

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby member_22733 » 16 Jan 2016 14:32

That he would go scott free was a near certainty.

He is a cop and the "system" is designed to protect them at any cost, so in a large number of cases he would have been completely free.

But in this particular case it was 100% certain that he would go scott free, because he assaulted and incapacitated a non-white person which according the book are kaafir pagan worshippers (aka expendable dispensable "human" being).

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby member_22733 » 16 Jan 2016 14:40

BTW: Do note the "explaning away" of the judgement in Huffpost. That is the other side of the presstitutional behavior we are witnessing. Critical of the brown unwashed, but revering the judgements handed over by the white power structure. Its huffpost so we cannot expect anything but Unkil's propagandu.

Even Goebels would not have dreamt of such conformance in propaganda.


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