India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

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Prem
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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Prem » 13 Jun 2016 22:31

http://m.thehindu.com/news/national/had ... 724731.ece
Had Nehru accepted U.S. offer, India will not have to try for NSG membership: Rasgotra

Mr. Rasgotra was speaking at the release of his new book “A Life in Diplomacy” at ORF.
“Kennedy, who was an admirer of India’s democracy and held its leader Jawaharlal Nehru in very high esteem, felt that democratic India, not Communist China, should be the first Asian country to conduct a nuclear test,” he said.Kennedy’s hand-written letter was accompanied by a technical note from the chairman of the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission, setting out the assistance his organisation would provide to Indian atomic scientists to detonate an American device from atop a tower in Rajasthan desert, the release said.
In the letter, Kennedy had said he and the American establishment were aware of Nehru’s strong views against nuclear tests and nuclear weapons, but emphasised the political and security threat China’s test would spell for Nehru’s government and India’s security, it said, adding the American leader’s letter emphasised that “nothing is more important than national security.”
Had India’s first Prime Minister Nehru accepted Kennedy’s offer of helping India detonate a nuclear device much before China did in 1964, India need not have had to make desperate efforts to enter the NSG now, he said.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Austin » 13 Jun 2016 22:37

Orlando shootout: Wahhabi fire reaches Florida

http://www.hindustantimes.com/analysis/ ... msRkN.html

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby ramana » 13 Jun 2016 23:12

Jhujar wrote:http://m.thehindu.com/news/national/had-nehru-accepted-us-offer-india-will-not-have-to-try-for-nsg-membership/article8724731.ece
Had Nehru accepted U.S. offer, India will not have to try for NSG membership: Rasgotra

Mr. Rasgotra was speaking at the release of his new book “A Life in Diplomacy” at ORF.
“Kennedy, who was an admirer of India’s democracy and held its leader Jawaharlal Nehru in very high esteem, felt that democratic India, not Communist China, should be the first Asian country to conduct a nuclear test,” he said.Kennedy’s hand-written letter was accompanied by a technical note from the chairman of the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission, setting out the assistance his organisation would provide to Indian atomic scientists to detonate an American device from atop a tower in Rajasthan desert, the release said.
In the letter, Kennedy had said he and the American establishment were aware of Nehru’s strong views against nuclear tests and nuclear weapons, but emphasised the political and security threat China’s test would spell for Nehru’s government and India’s security, it said, adding the American leader’s letter emphasised that “nothing is more important than national security.”
Had India’s first Prime Minister Nehru accepted Kennedy’s offer of helping India detonate a nuclear device much before China did in 1964, India need not have had to make desperate efforts to enter the NSG now, he said.



Obviously it would mean the offer was made before 1962. Don't know if India had the materials fr this tower test?
Also how does it gell with this report:

viewtopic.php?p=2023924#p2023924

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Prem » 13 Jun 2016 23:44


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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby member_23370 » 14 Jun 2016 00:01

What would India have gained by testing an american device? That's a meaningless offer. Unless the design was transferred it would not help India in any way.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Prem » 14 Jun 2016 00:08

Bheeshma wrote:What would India have gained by testing an american device? That's a meaningless offer. Unless the design was transferred it would not help India in any way.


There have been many rumours of design transfer even in late 90s.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Rudradev » 14 Jun 2016 00:27

Jhujar wrote:
Bheeshma wrote:What would India have gained by testing an american device? That's a meaningless offer. Unless the design was transferred it would not help India in any way.


There have been many rumours of design transfer even in late 90s.


I have been wondering about this.

Once we jumped out of the box in 1998 (and it became clear to Clinton/Halfbright that there was no pushing us back in with sanctions, etc.)... what would the US have gained by making it more difficult for us to modernize our warheads? I mean, it was a fait accompli that we had tested at all at POK II, including a thermonuclear weapon and FBF weapon. The US would have seen that whatever they did to discourage our development of nukes from '74-'98 had completely failed, and indeed, concluded that any measures they might take to discourage our further development of nukes from '98 onwards were only MORE likely to fail in future.

What does the US typically do in such situations, when "genie is out of the bottle"? What did they do, for example, when they found out that Pakistan/ISI via the Taliban were linked inextricably to 9-11, and that Photochor Khan had been proliferating on the open market? They said "the past is the past" and left it at that. Very often the USA takes the path of least resistance, and tries to "manage" the situation to the best possible outcome for themselves.

Think about this in light of the "unilateral moratorium on testing" announced by ABV & co.

Is it possible that the US gave us, for example, proven W88/W76 designs some time between the '98 tests and the IUCNCA in exchange for this "moratorium" (rather than have us make a total and open joke out of the CTBT by going about developing our warheads the hard way through a regime of iterative testing?) Could it be that at some point, the US realized what a catastrophic mistake it was to sanction India in the background of a rising China, and went about trying to "co-opt" our nuclear weapons program as an observable and manageable entity instead?

Did discussions to this end take place during Clinton's '99 visit to New Delhi, or the Strobe-Jaswant talks, or only after the GWB administration assumed power in DupleeCity?

Given that the Chinese had already acquired W88 designs illicitly by 1999 (cf: Larry Wu-Tai Chin's espionage at Los Alamos), would the US really see themselves as having lost anything by sharing the same tech with India as well? And in turn, was it Chinese pique at the US sharing advanced warhead designs with India that inspired Beijing to increase its proliferation to Pakistan, Iran, and especially the proxy-testing NoKo?

Was the Santhanam affair a belated realization that the GOI had agreed never to test again because it had what it believed were proven US warhead designs? Did KS and his allies feel that it was worth publicly questioning the outcome of POK II as a last-ditch effort to prevent what they saw as a long-term mortgaging of India's strategic weapons initiative to the good faith of the US?

Many questions. We mere mortals will probably never know the answers.


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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby vera_k » 14 Jun 2016 06:43

VijayR wrote:I'm just saying that it did not set off an alarm when he went and bought those guns

So there is a lacuna in their monitoring algorithms


Why would it matter? Since no law was broken, such an alarm is merely noise.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby krishna_krishna » 14 Jun 2016 07:05

Rdevji we mere mortals can never know everything but we can try to seek the truth with best of our abilities. Here is what logic i can give with best of my abilities:

Massa were tremendously disturbed with our testing that was considered biggest int failure by see eye yeah. The maya jaal that was prepared was flawless. If you read book by APJ kalam it begins with an army kaptain showing finger in the night to massa dish to catch us if they can. Now if they were already massa blessed what is the reason to take all these takleef and preparation. Even sinha was on record that when ABV wanted to talk about this he would signal him silently to come to bedroom and not talk in his usual office.Also remember as soon as the series was done government announced that we will not do it ever since we collected all the information we need for all our future bums. If there was something transferred what was massa getting from it when we already announce we are never going to do it immediately after the series (I& II) remember G fernandes using exact words that it was a series and we have completed the series and there will be no more.

Now what Santana tried was to force governments to test again our thermo bum since it was sub par, but it is plausible that Massa could have said after the test decided that indians reached a point per their calculus we were never support to reach hence all the heartburn read some ex agents claiming of murdering our scientists in the past to stop this and they thought it stopped. Now to contain they offered jaswant that looked we know your thermo bum fizzled and we did grave mistake of ignoring your concern look munna you as our lost brother we will give you a design and you promise to become nice. Santana being true son of earth did not want our capabilities to be limited. I believe this because we never intend to test our mizzile above certain range same goes four our MRV capability we always look for approval from massa. Also one more disclaimer I believe this india specific treaty during MMS was a ploy to go and check what we have under our nails because they were f**king blind as they had no clue on our abilities.

Btw excellent analysis on CPEC which is coming true with china blessing our NSG entry.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby SSridhar » 14 Jun 2016 07:48

No threat to strategic autonomy, yet - Arun Mohan Sukumar, The Hindu

There is an embedded table of 'What India Gave' and 'What India Got' in return.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby ShauryaT » 14 Jun 2016 08:57

As Modi Pulls India Closer to US, the Perils of a Misshapen Relationship Mount
BY SRINATH RAGHAVAN


If the current state of bilateral and multilateral economic relations persists, we might end up in a position where India bolsters American strategic primacy with little to show in return.


If the strategic side of this relationship is progressing as intended by New Delhi and Washington, the same cannot be said for the economic side. The joint statement makes it clear that there has been no significant progress on negotiations of the Totalisation Agreement. There is deathly silence on the Bilateral Investment Treaty – an area of priority for American businesses, but a thorny one for the Indian government, especially on taxation and investor state dispute settlement. India also continues to remain on the US government’s intellectual property rights watchlist.

As for India’s wider economic aspirations, the joint statement only says: “The United States welcomes India’s interest in joining the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation forum”. This is the exact formulation used in the “US-India Joint Strategic Vision for the Asia-Pacific and the Indian-Ocean Region” released during Obama’s visit to India in January 2015. Eighteen months on, India’s quest for APEC membership remains in the realm of vision. Let’s be clear: my neighbour may welcome my interest in his banquet, but that doesn’t mean he is holding out an invitation for me to join.

Beyond the APEC lies the elephant in the room: the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP). By pressing ahead with the TPP, the US is not only undermining the WTO (while conveniently blaming India for the impasse there) but effectively cutting India out of the most dynamic economies in the Asia-Pacific. The regulatory requirements of the TPP are well beyond what India can accept in the foreseeable future. The best hope for India may be that the next US president will paddle back from the TPP.

In short, India’s emerging partnership with the US in the Asia-Pacific will stand on a weak economic leg. This is bound to impose constraints on what the two countries can do together. More importantly, New Delhi should ponder the limits of such a misshapen relationship. The engagement with the US of every Indian government since 1991 has been premised on the idea of leveraging these ties for the internal transformation of India. If the current state of bilateral and multilateral economic relations persists, we might end up in a position where India bolsters American strategic primacy with little to show in return.

The argument that India needs such a relationship with the US in order to deal with China is specious. China’s rapid military modernisation and assertive behaviour are evident. But there is little to suggest that we needed to cozy up to the US on such terms. Indeed, by echoing the US line on “freedom of navigation” in the South China Sea – starting with Mr. Modi’s visit to the US in September 2014 – India has unnecessarily muddied the waters. An overwhelming amount of China’s own trade flows through the South China Sea, so how is it in Chinese interests to impede freedom of navigation there? The phrase “freedom of navigation” is a euphemism for the freedom of the US navy to patrol close to Chinese coasts. By embracing it so enthusiastically, we are signalling our willingness to help uphold US naval dominance in the Asia-Pacific. The claims by some Indian analysts that the US will help ensure a multipolar Asia is naïve. The US is committed to only ensuring its own unquestioned primacy. And there are ways of leveraging American power to our own purposes without going down the current path.

It is hardly surprising that China has taken unkindly to our strategic embrace of the US in this way. Beijing’s behaviour on a range of issues from NSG to Nepal is clearly an indication of the toughening Chinese stance towards India on things that they would otherwise have let pass. It is curious that New Delhi seems to have been caught off-guard by these moves: a bit like a man who is surprised that his neighbour, whom he expected to punch him in the face, has actually punched him in the face.

The government has claimed that unlike its predecessors, it will not allow its relations with the US to be shaped by China’s concerns. But for a weaker player it makes eminent sense to factor in the likely reactions of adversaries to every move that it makes. Any government that imagines that choices can be made without reckoning with consequences is clearly out to lunch. Ultimately, Modi’s policy towards the US will be judged not just on its own terms but also by his ability to manage these inevitable consequences.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Singha » 14 Jun 2016 09:02

India has offered some new benefits to china lately like reducing the security hassles for chinese cos to do business, no security visa needed for people attending conferences, visa free shore leave for chinese sailors here....

china also knows india is a major potential market for all their upcoming MNCs - it already is for things like power eqpt, construction eqpt, electronics and can only get larger. the US market is saturated for their goods and services and only value-addition game is there , and the euros will give some access but only few lucrative large markets there like uk-france-germany-italy, rest are also-rans just tagging along for the ride.

they need to think over if making a enemy out of india is profitable and desirable long term or just a frenemy type country with mutually beneficial 'engagements' .... trick is to ensure they do not get to keep both the 1st strategy + market access. make it a zero sum game beyond a point....choose the TSPian path or be our frenemy and get out of the way on access to various rich boy clubs like nsg.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Amber G. » 14 Jun 2016 19:48

These times I am not keeping up with these threads but let me share an anecdote with respect to Ramana's point, -- take it FWIW or ignore it if it is you think this is OT or disagree..

ramana wrote:
Jhujar wrote:http://m.thehindu.com/news/national/had-nehru-accepted-us-offer-india-will-not-have-to-try-for-nsg-membership/article8724731.ece
Had Nehru accepted U.S. offer, India will not have to try for NSG membership: Rasgotra

>>>[size=20]Mr. Rasgotra was speaking at the release of his new book “A Life in Diplomacy” at ORF.
<snip>



Obviously it would mean the offer was made before 1962. Don't know if India had the materials fr this tower test?
Also how does it gell with this report:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 4#p2023924

In 1969 (or 1970 ?) summer I was a research assistant to an Israeli prof (quite well known) doing some work in experimental nuclear physics.. still remember.. calculating Racah's coefficients and things like that. There was a front page NY Times story about Israeli bomb (do they have it or not?). Even then the basic nuclear physics (and engineering needed) about fission/explosion was, at least in academic circles, was not that mysterious as the newspapers tried to make out. So I asked my prof something like:
"
What's all this big deal, why all this "investigative report" etc..given that Israel had material, scientists and engineers, what prevents Israel to make a device, whenever it decides to do so.. why NY times making it a big story?"
.

His answer was short. "
Nothing.. Just like India can/could do it any time after 1963 when BARC had that 'separator' working..but newspapers are newspapers
" (Later I was little impressed with his technical knowledge about India nuclear programs).

IIRC ..Trombay's plant (Pu reprocessing or "separator") was built a year or 2 ago. Plant's blue prints/design were originated in US but Indian scientists have modified it significantly. In late 60's it was processing something like 20-30 tons of material coming out of India's reactors.

It was bureaucracy and other factors which were more pertinent to timing. Technically my best guess for the critical year for India - from what I know - was 1963.. or a year or so afterwords.

(Politically I think the critical year was 1971 after Bangla Desh..1974 device did NOT surprise any technical people anywhere, only remarkable point was the political decision).

BTW, for China, US handed their first bomb design to them on silver platter..I wrote about it in 2005, check this out (see link below) and a few messages around the posts. Reading these old posts, it looks like we had some real physicists in brf posting then.. (Alok_n, Sunil).. worth re-reading. In nuclear physics and engineering, in my humble opinion, India was quite bid ahead of China in early 60's.


<Link to the post>

As to
Also how does it gell with this report:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 4#p2023924

The "Crowley story" is such a laughable bakwas that I am surprised that *any* sensible person will give it *any* credit...but then may be I shouldn't be that surprised to see some people will believe even the most absurd CTs... (perhaps the sad part is such stories take some root in brf )

Anyway my last on this...
Last edited by Amber G. on 14 Jun 2016 19:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby ramana » 14 Jun 2016 19:53

AmberG, Welcome back. And thanks for insights as always.

ramana

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Amber G. » 14 Jun 2016 20:21

^^^ Thanks. Was busy with some personal/family transitions.. all good. :)

Added later: BTW, Tsien (see link to my post in the above post) was virtually unknown then (and even still, very few people know about him and his contribution to China's 1964 test) outside physics world. Many details came out much later when some went through Caltech archives. Now even wiki has quite a bit of detailed article about him https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qian_Xuesen.. calling him the leader of the Chinese nuclear weapons program and as the "Father of Chinese Rocketry"

(Or see this short interesting article: http://www.newyorker.com/news/evan-osnos/the-two-lives-of-qian-xuesen.)

The famous sci-fi film Space Odyssey sequel(2010), the space ship was named "Tsien" after him. I was really surprised to see virtually no other person have heard this name and people gave me a look when I said "I am really surprised that you have not even heard the name of such a famous scientist' ..!

(I am proud that India was not as xenophobic and we did not push good scientists out just because they were were "different")

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby ramana » 15 Jun 2016 02:17

I did read about him. He also worked on Operation Paperclip.

I also suspect US helped with CHIC-4 design.

I suspect because China gave that design to Pakistan.
Pakistan scours the world for US components.
Now why would a Chinese nuke design have US components?

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby CRamS » 15 Jun 2016 02:21

Guys, regarding US's support to India's entry into NSG. Here is my thought. And its based on how US politicians vote in senate and cong on certain sensitive issues. For e.g., if a particular senator's constituents want him to vote a certain way, while his party wants him to support the opposite view, he will will go with his constituents knowing fully well that the position he takes won't matter, i.e., he doesn't lose because his vote doesn't affect party position and he also retains credibility and trust with his constituents.

Now why is this relevant here. US knows fully well that China will block India's entry no matter what. And in fact US also does not want India's entry. But to pep India's ego a little bit (look at the euphoria in India at ModiJi's visit and his address to Cong etc) and get what it wants from India, it puts on this drama of supporting India's entry into NSG while secure in the belief that China will block anyway. I mean if US were really serious, they would twist China's arms to support India's bid, and China's arms can be twisted, its "super power" status notwithstanding (recall, how US bombed Chinese embassy or broadcast tower I can't recall during its bombing raid over Serbia a few years back and then showed China the middle finder). Is my reading of US correct on its supposed support to India's entry into NSG?

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Suresh S » 15 Jun 2016 02:31

I think that is a reasonable way of looking at it. But whether there is anything different in their thinking we will know soon enough

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby ramana » 15 Jun 2016 02:33

You are right.

Besides Obama was the principle backer of Hyde Act while in the Senate.
So to expect he will bend backwards to get India into NSG is pipe dream.
Khayli pullao.

He will hug NaMo and lecture about tolerance to India.
Doesn't even know guest manners.
Apatra danam inviting him to Republic Day as Chief Guest.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Manish_Sharma » 15 Jun 2016 02:40

Cross posting from tsp thread:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7213&p=2029990&sid=009d8e6c23ae4f128970048506fd5605#p2029967

Peregrine wrote:Pakistan moves to hire Washington lobbyists amid strained US ties

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan is looking to hire lobbying firms in Washington after a gap of nearly eight years, ......
Cheers Image


This statement:
"Pakistan is looking to hire lobbying firms in Washington after a gap of nearly eight years.."

Says a lot about how confidant and assured porkis were at the arrival of hussein obama as president and clinton-huma in foreign secretary chair of their interests being taken care of fully.... why waste money on lobbyists; now with trump using "islam.." word openly and a big chance of him becoming president they need the lobbyists again, in case hillary-abedin get in president chair then I am sure porkis will again let go of lobbyists... Full party time for them next 4 years!

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby sanjaykumar » 15 Jun 2016 02:45

Tsien was totally unknown except to the intrepid investigative journalists at the illustrious Daytona Beach Morning Journal https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=C ... %2C1559834.

This is from 1967, Theodore von Kármán with Lee Edson (1967) The Wind and Beyond, chapter 38: Dr. Tsien of Red China, pp. 308 to 15

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Suresh S » 15 Jun 2016 02:54

big chance of him becoming president

I had a dream last night. A birdie told me Trump has been confirmed as the next president of the USA after what happened recently in the south

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby krishna_krishna » 15 Jun 2016 04:53

Ramana guru, I disagree India will make it through NSG somehow. My reasoning : 1) Rdev's analysis on CPEC if it has to succeed then India should be part of NSG no other way out. 2) The quid pro quo of Westinghouse reactors and other doles remain pipe dreams as well if india is not accomodated

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Amber G. » 15 Jun 2016 05:51

There are endless NYTimes editorials and other analysis but just a few facts:

1- China did not block (at least officially) India's NSG's 2008 "clean waiver" entry. The opposition came from countries like Austria, Switzerland, Norway, Ireland, New Zealand but not from China (at least not overtly)

2. Now apart from saying that they do not "unconditionally support" they are mostly quiet officially. Officially (Foreign Ministry) they offer "conditional support" for Indian membership in the NSG (regardless what some Paki or other newspapers spin they have not officially blocked or opposed India)

3. OTOH, U.S, France, UK, Russia, Japan, Mexico, Switzerland among others have clearly/openly given their support.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Amber G. » 15 Jun 2016 06:00

Last edited by Amber G. on 15 Jun 2016 08:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby chanakyaa » 15 Jun 2016 06:06

India mustn’t let nuclear ambitions blind itself (Global Times.cn)

Last week, Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi embarked on a diplomatic journey, traveling halfway across the world with his top goal to garner support for his country's entry into the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG). The plenary meeting of the group is expected to be held in Seoul, South Korea on June 24.

The US and some NSG members have given a push to India's membership bid, but the reported opposition from most countries, especially China, seems to have irritated India. Beijing insists that a prerequisite of New Delhi's entry is that it must be a signatory to the Non-Proliferation Treaty, while India is not. Despite acknowledging this legal and systematic requirement, the Indian media called China's stance "obstructionist."

India has its own calculations for joining the NSG. Eyeing retaining the fastest growing economy tag, India's access to the NSG, a body that regulates the global trade of nuclear technology, is expected to open up the international market for India's domestic nuclear energy program. Meanwhile, with the support of the US, India can advance its development in this regard.

The deliberations of the US are also clear. With India's NSG membership, the US, the world's largest producer of nuclear power, can sell its nuclear technology to India. A US company is set to build six nuclear reactors in India, an agreement made between the two countries during Modi's recent visit to the US.

Beyond cooperation in the nuclear sector, Washington views New Delhi as a balancing actor in its pivot to the Asia-Pacific strategy. Its supply of nuclear technologies to enhance India's deterrence capability is to put China in check.

What is missing in US and Indian motives are concerns for regional security. So far, South Asia is still facing the harsh reality that the region is mired in nuclear confrontation.

India and Pakistan, both nuclear powers in the region, keep alert to each other's nuclear capabilities. India's application for NSG membership and its potential consequences will inevitably touch a raw nerve in Pakistan, its traditional rival in the region. As Pakistan is not willing to see an enlarging gap in nuclear power with India, a nuclear race is a likely outcome. This will not only paralyze regional security, but also jeopardize China's national interests.

China insists on peaceful development. A peaceful regional and global environment is in the interests of all stakeholders. China's concern about India's inclusion into the NSG comes out of the security dynamic in South Asia. Only when New Delhi and Islamabad take another step forward in their nonproliferation commitments can the region avoid being dragged into a nuclear confrontation.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby chanakyaa » 15 Jun 2016 06:21

The perception of struggle to get into is NSG (some sort of elite group per MSM) is truly sad. India is slowly and steadily opening up its economy of 1+ billion population for worldwide MNCs to sell their products and services (checkout last 3 years of trade deficit with China), and not asking anything exchange (relatively speaking). And, India has to beg these countries whose MNCs are dying to sell their medicines, technology, and finance to Indian population.

No NSG, no access to Indian market!!! period!! Go sell nuclear power plant to aliens on the moon, who gives a f^&@%..

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby ramana » 15 Jun 2016 08:47

AmberG, Do you remember the origins of London Supplier Group which.led to NSG?

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby chetak » 15 Jun 2016 09:03

aunty hillary is bad news for India. She hasn't changed her views from the one she had from a year ago. Even the amrekis are vary of her.


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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby nvishal » 15 Jun 2016 09:55

wrt to nuclear weapon proliferation, you need to understand the american practice of balancing out one power against the other.

The chinese were build by the americans to balance out russia.
After smiling buddha, the pakistans were made nuclear to balance out india

Connecting xerox with the west becomes redundant when you already have the option to look at it from the geo-strategic point of view.
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While balancing out, the americans don't have control over the long term.
eg: The americans developed the chinese military and manufacturing industry during the cold war but have run into a problem today.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby kittoo » 15 Jun 2016 10:04

chetak wrote:aunty hillary is bad news for India. She hasn't changed her views from the one she had from a year ago. Even the amrekis are vary of her.


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And thats the gist of the Republican party's hatred for Trump. They had a genuine chance of winning it because very few actually like Hillary. Then comes Trump, who wins the nomination but has no chance of winning in the general. He simply ruined the Republican party- not only the chances in this election but in general.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Hari Seldon » 15 Jun 2016 10:07

Kureel is pithily, verily on the mark, again.

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IMO, its a good sign this NSG mess. Should we somehow make it, well and good. If we don;t, at least GoI would've woken up to the dlagon's unrelenting hostility and course-correct.

1. Slash the burgeoning deficit with PRC for a change, by ...

2. publicly appealing to go swadeshi for all the major heads of imports we do from PRC (small things like trinkets and toys etc we can make inhouse, even if its more costly), - the public appeal might even work, like it did for LPG subsidy give-ups by the urban middle classes.

3. imposing dumping duties right, left and center on all manner of PRC goods and bads,

4. find ways to impose non-tariff barriers to any and every thing imported from PRC, (there are ways and ohg, there are ways)

5. Roll back all red carpets and cr@p to all manner of chini businesses. Tell alibaba and its cronies here - paytm type basturds to go take a walk - your 'investments' are unwelcome here now.

6. give a clear message to all desi industry biggies that any business with PRC henceforth shall invite GoI scrotum-e-scrutiny (screwtiny, basically)

7. Etc etc.

In fact, failing the NSG yet again should help in so many varied ways, me feels. WOuld also help us get off that unwanted westinghouse BS - why not invest the same monies in our FBR thorium program, eh?. Only. JMTPs and all that.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby member_27581 » 15 Jun 2016 11:52

^^ Hari sir very nicely articulated. I think Modi is testing the depths of animosity that China has for India. For decades the lizard has been running this anti India game behind the curtains. Whether we get through NSG or not is a different question but it gives Modi and possibly the foreign policy mandarins of India a clear idea who is with us, who is against us and the extent of their associations with us (if they didnt have it clearly). Hopefully some of the actions you mentioned will be taken covertly or overtly to make them realize the cost of their actions.
JMTs

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby RajeshA » 15 Jun 2016 12:18

During the Indo-US Nuclear Deal, it was in the aftermath of Iraq War, and America and George W. Bush were not really loved in Europe, so little upstart countries wanted to show their resistance to American initiatives. Hence one had countries from Austria, Switzerland, Norway, etc. all trying to block the deal. China, at that time was opposed but was willing to let the little Europeans take the lead and block the deal. The fact, that Russia was also in favor also weighed down upon the Chinese.

That was eight years ago!

In the mean time China is an even bigger power.

The Europeans are not really averse to US initiatives right now, at least not under Obama, so all of the countries would play ball, i.e. except China. China doesn't have anybody else in NSG behind whom China can hide now. US on the other hand is willing to let China be the only country to oppose India, which would further bring India into American embrace and helps US in their Asian Pivot.

Considering how China even said no to listing "minor" Paki terrorists onto the UN terrorist watch-list, it is obvious China is ready to show its antagonism to India.

USA can tell India that they tried and even got all the other countries on board, and still it can accept an India which is not "in the big boys clubs". That too suits USA.

Question is whether Barack Obama would be willing to dilute NSG rules on consensus?

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Philip » 15 Jun 2016 13:04

Ravi ,in agreement with you.Why the sh*t should we continue to burden ourselves with a $50B trade deficit with China,which it uses to beef up its military? Impose a 1000% duty on all Chinny products,issue only stapled visas with no visas for Ar.Pr.Kashmir and all N-Eastern states.That will automatically invigorate Indian made in India industry for $50B! A good portion of that can go into local defence industries so that we have more money for the armed forces to deal with China.$10B will give us our 6 SSNs,you get my drift. What really galls me is that almost all Hindu dieties today available in the shops for domestic use ,which used to be made by small handicraft entities and small industries based around our sacred cities,are "made in (Godless,Atheist) Communist China".There should be a campaign led by the Parivar to ban such imports totally.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby CRamS » 15 Jun 2016 13:28

Not sure what the significance if any is

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/us-se ... 160615.htm

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby Cosmo_R » 15 Jun 2016 15:10

^^^"Question is whether Barack Obama would be willing to dilute NSG rules on consensus?"

Doesn't have to and should not because of pakistan. The way it will get settled is through 3-way horse trading.

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby krishna_krishna » 15 Jun 2016 15:16

Mean-e-while, India as a special partner bill rejected by Senate :

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 759681.cms

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Re: India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Postby NRao » 15 Jun 2016 15:25

60:40 India gets into NSG.

Either way I would not underestimate Modi.


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