Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10, 2015

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby uddu » 11 Jul 2015 20:00

What i do feel is that the request for meeting came from Pakistan. They wanted to be relevant for some more time rather than became a Somalia in all possible ways. Hence this approach from Pakistan. For Modi, this may be the last chance given to Pakistan to correct itself.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby shiv » 11 Jul 2015 20:06

A_Gupta wrote:CCFair on Modi-Sharif meet:
https://soundcloud.com/gateway-house-in ... eakthrough

I agree 100% with CFair. I will not accuse GoI until I see them drop the ball. I can excuse this one as a leg bye - for now. I have seen Manmohan Singh doing exactly this.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby abhijitm » 11 Jul 2015 20:14

pankajs wrote:People who watch NDTV (Tharoor & Kesavan) dhoti-shiver .....

Another interesting exercise .... folks who dhoti-shiver at the drop of the hat ... check back how many positive news they have posted wrt the current gov in the achievements thread, economy thread or any other thread and then compare it to how many times they rush to announce that the sky is falling or Modi is loosing GE2019.

Its been 8 years 7 months now. A week after 26/11 to be precise. After NDTV took pakistan's side. I had enough. I switched and swore never to watch that mafking anti-national channel again. Have so much peace since then.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby CRamS » 11 Jul 2015 20:20

uddu wrote:What i do feel is that the request for meeting came from Pakistan. They wanted to be relevant for some more time rather than became a Somalia in all possible ways. Hence this approach from Pakistan. For Modi, this may be the last chance given to Pakistan to correct itself.


Now that the meeting has taken place, it doesn't matter who initiated it, but Indian reports say ModiJi "reached out" first.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby KLNMurthy » 11 Jul 2015 20:39

A_Gupta wrote:^^^ "mini surrender" is not dhoti-shivering?

----

MJ Akbar's take as as good as any other,
http://www.sunday-guardian.com/analysis ... arc-vision

PS: "...And with all of them demanding that India make piss with TSP" --- what actual pressure was exerted on India, please do inform.

BJP spokesman MJ Akbar is that rare thing, an actual Indian intellectual. I don't see eye to eye with him on the vision of peace with Pakistan, but I can't fault his logic and exposition.

Here he is totally contradicting BRF's dominant thesis--that Modi "surrendered" in response to some external pressure. Akbar is saying that it is Modi who is moving the pieces, pursuing his SAARC vision, and leading Pakistan by the ear in a direction--economic development--that is against its own true inner nature. I would bet against Modi succeeding, but I would be delighted to be wrong.

Dhoti-shiverers please read Akbar's article closely. Modi is acting like India is a superpower--a nation that charts its own destiny and carries others along.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby Anindya » 11 Jul 2015 21:57

Pakistani consul general in US embarrasses his country

An investigation is underway against the new consular general (CG) in Los Angeles, Hamid Asghar Khan.

The investigation comes after months of complaints by the Pakistani community in Los Angeles to Pakistani Ambassador to the US Jalil Abbas Jillani and senior political figures in Pakistan, including Sartaj Aziz and Aizaz Chaudry. The investigation is being carried out after reports were filed by numerous individuals that included allegations of sexual harassment. Women at the office in Los Angeles and the Pakistani American community have alleged Khan repeatedly propositioned them and made untoward sexual suggestions.

Sexual misconduct: It was reported that Khan hired the services of escort agencies during his time serving at the Pakistan Embassy in London. It has also been alleged that he asked several prominent Pakistani American businessmen for financial rewards. The businessmen reported that they were told by Khan that in order for them to bring much needed investment to Pakistan they would be required to give a payment or “kick back” to him. His business interests with Pakistani American city council member of small town in Southern California Ali Sajjad are also under investigation.

Consumption of alcohol: It has been alleged that Khan demanded his staff bring him alcohol and then consume it, whilst in his Pakistan Consulate office. He would then proceed to become violent and abusive towards his colleagues.....

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby g.sarkar » 11 Jul 2015 22:42

Cross posting from achievement tracking:
http://www.firstpost.com/world/engaging ... 38156.html
Engaging with Pakistan: Modi sends strong signal by fielding Doval instead of MEA to deal with Islamabad
The Modi government unilaterally called off foreign secretary-level talks with Pakistan last August but has now decided to hold National Security Advisory-level talks, one-notch higher level, as NSA in Indian dispensation enjoys a minister of state rank.
Why? What has changed in India-Pakistan context in past ten and a half months? Is the Modi government’s Pakistan policy confused and confusing or is there a method behind the sudden uptick in its interest in mending ties with Pakistan even though the ground situation remains just the same? The 10 July summit between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and his Pakistani counterpart Nawaz Sharif in Ufa, Russia has significant implications not only for the two neighbours but also for the two governments. Here we focus on implications for India only while the Pakistan part will be discussed separately.
When Modi had held his first summit meeting with Nawaz Sharif for the first time in New Delhi, soon after becoming prime minister on 26 May 2014, the two had decided that their foreign secretaries would be meeting soon for structured talks. The foreign secretary-level talks were scheduled for August 2014 in Islamabad but unilaterally canceled by India at the eleventh hour as the Modi government was livid over Pakistan’s engagement with Kashmiri separatists.
Ten and a half months later, the Modi government has not only decided to re-engage with Pakistan but decided to do that at a higher level of NSA. This is a clever ploy by PM Modi. By keeping the proposed talks with Pakistan, he has clearly taken India’s Pakistan policy away from the domain of the Ministry of External Affairs......."
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby Muns » 11 Jul 2015 22:56

I get the feeling that Modiji is trying to create an escape clause should hostilities begin otherwise. Akin to what Vajpayee did by going to Pakistan during the Lahore bus declaration tamasha and then Musharraf launching Kargil. This may be a media stunt to show to the world that all efforts by 'Big Brother' India to create piss in the region. One more beheading on the border or some inflammatory stunt and hopefully the BJP media machine might throw up their hands and say we tried! This is after all a Saarc summit and while it may be unfortunate that the summit is happening in Pakistan in 2016. Not to have us and the leader Saarc at any meeting would prove that Saarc has little substance at all. Not to forget that it is at the end of this year that is ISRO is launching the Saarc satellite that Modiji himself put forward and likely much of the hype will be presenting the benefits and launch off the satellite to Pakistan and other Saarc nations. Overall such a summit meeting may be advantageous to us and create opportunities for retaliation should Pakistan indulge in more cross-border terrorist activities.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby g.sarkar » 11 Jul 2015 23:19

http://www.firstpost.com/world/dealing- ... 37828.html
Dealing with Pakistan: Modi-Doval strategy should focus on Chanakya neeti
It is premature and wholly illogical to term the decisions announced after the Narendra Modi-Nawaz Sharif meeting in Ufa, Russia, as either a "breakthrough" or even the breaking of a "deadlock". The announcements, at best, reflect a recalibration of New Delhi's stop-go policy on talks with Pakistan, and that is what needs welcoming.
Let’s be clear. There is going to be no breakthrough, no breaking of a “deadlock” on any core issue. India is not going to ease up on Kashmir or Siachen, and Pakistan is not going to play ball on any issue of vital interest to India - especially jihadi terror fostered by the Pakistani Deep State (army, ISI), or even the trial of 26/11 mastermind Zakiur Rahman Lakhvi. References to terrorism and the trial are just there for the optics – which may be worth having, but it won’t mean anything on the ground. Modi's proposed visit to Pakistan next year may be great for photo-ops, but that's about it.We have to adopt Chanakya’s tactics with Pakistan, and this means focusing on peripheral issues, not the core. The core issues should be left for later generations. This is exactly what the Ufa announcements have done. There is no reference to Kashmir or India-focused terrorism......
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Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10, 2015

Postby Peregrine » 11 Jul 2015 23:19

Nawaz discussed all 'disputed' matters with Modi in Russia: Rashid

Countering the criticism on Friday’s talks between the Pakistani and Indian premiers, Minister for Information Pervaiz Rashid said on Saturday that all the disputed matters were discussed in their meeting in Russia.

The minister, who noted that topics such as Kashmir, Sir Creek, and Siachen as disputed matters, told the media that these regional issues had been raised in the meeting.

Following Friday’s talk between Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif and his Indian counterpart Narendra Modi in Ufa on the sidelines of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO), many on both sides of the border (It is only the Nanga Bhookhas not the Indians) had criticised the lack of mention of Kashmir. Even in the joint communique by the foreign secretaries of both countries, released after the meeting, there was no explicit mention of Kashmir even as it called for resumption of the stalled dialogue and vowed progress on specific issues such as fishermen and the Mumbai trial case.

As the saying goes you just caint trust a Nanga Bhookhastani!
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby CRamS » 12 Jul 2015 01:17

KLNMurthy wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:^^^ "mini surrender" is not dhoti-shivering?

Dhoti-shiverers please read Akbar's article closely. Modi is acting like India is a superpower--a nation that charts its own destiny and carries others along.


I won't comment on your claim of "Modi is acting like India is a superpower", but on the "dhoti-shivering", I will give ModiJi the benefit of doubt till this plays out.

My gut feel, as of many others, is that this joint statement is so loosely worded that TSP is bound to interpret it the way it wants, and make a farce of any discussion on its pigLeTs arrayed against India.

Also, whether ModiJi likes it or not, he needs to deal with domestic opposition, some of which we can dismiss, but there are genuine concerns on his muscular rhetoric Vs pragmatic implementation of that rhetoric.

This particular meeting IMO was uncalled for. TSP continues to brazenly thumb its nose, absolutely no movement on 26/11, LOC ceasefire violations continue, and Harried rats continue to be pampered. So question arises, and I don't know if he will answer or not, as to what changed between his cancellation of talks last time, and resumption now, however much his die hard supporters might cast it as being part of larger SAARC vision etc.

A_GuptaJi, on external pressure, I doubt either US or Russia or for that matter even China issued any ultimatum to India, but as I said, with those 3 countries and their allies cocking a snook at India by elevating TSP, be it in Afghanistan or elsewhere, and boxing India with India TSP, not to mention aid and investment into TSP, it is very clear that India has no allies when it comes to treating TSP as the terrorist abomination that it is. Thus, the pressure on ModiJi is indirect IMO, and so he probably calculated that its better to stay engaged and throw TSP off balance.

It is woefully painful for "dhoti-shiverers" like me to witness this climb-down, but I re-iterate that ModiJi is still a far cry from MMS and Vajapee. The jury is out.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby Gus » 12 Jul 2015 01:26

what possibly is this "pressure" on modi..

clearly modi and doval are running the game and i would wait and see what happens than jump to theories.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby CRamS » 12 Jul 2015 01:36

Gus wrote:what possibly is this "pressure" on modi..

clearly modi and doval are running the game and i would wait and see what happens than jump to theories.


Explain why ModiJi climbed down? What changed between his cancellation of talks the last time, and now. A coherent, convincing, cogent answer to that will set any lingering questions such as "pressure" to rest.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby Agnimitra » 12 Jul 2015 02:47

U.S. Strike Reportedly Kills Senior ISIS Militant Hafiz Saeed

http://t.co/ODCP3PrjVu

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby Gus » 12 Jul 2015 03:42

Modi does not have to explain everything while it is in the works.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby Kakkaji » 12 Jul 2015 03:48

KP Nayar's take. Pinch of salt needed:

Real outcome at Ufa: PMO trumps ministry - Back to NSA diplomacy but with a change

July 11: The most glaring outcome of the Ufa meeting between Narendra Modi and Nawaz Sharif is that in a five-and-a-half-month turf battle between the Prime Minister's Office and the external affairs ministry for control of foreign policy, the PMO has emerged victorious.

But Modi insisted at Ufa, according to trustworthy accounts, that the resumption of dialogue should be at the level of the national security advisers, not between the foreign secretaries.

The problem post-Ufa is that Doval is more like Natwar Singh and less like Dixit. This writer has had two long conversations with Doval in Washington about Pakistan: he is obsessed with the "nuisance" neighbour - as Modi referred to Pakistan in Dhaka recently.

On the face of it, the Ufa process could survive the obsession of one man in government. But the process may be a non-starter if its driver on the Indian side, as the conversation in Washington revealed, is stuck in a time warp on Pakistan.

Doval's view of the country he is tasked to engage has not changed from the time he was posted in Islamabad as an intelligence officer several decades ago. But Pakistan has evolved and the time warp does not augur well for what Modi wants to do.


Unlike in India, Sartaj Aziz, the adviser on foreign affairs and national security, is monarch of all he surveys in Pakistan's external affairs - as long as he does not upset the Army General Headquarters in Rawalpindi, of course.

And Sartaj Aziz precisely knows what it is to deal with a BJP government in New Delhi. He could not have forgotten Atal Bihari Vajpayee's cold, menacing stare as the NDA Prime Minister's trusted lieutenant, Jaswant Singh, hauled him over the coals on Pakistan's betrayal of the Lahore spirit kindled by Vajpayee's visit. Aziz had gone to 7 Race Course Road, Vajpayee's residence, to negotiate a settlement of Kargil.

If Modi retains his present reservoir of political capital in the coming months, he could pick the low-hanging fruit in India-Pakistan relations before he heads to Islamabad for next year's South Asian summit. Sources close to him insist that this is what the Prime Minister intends to do.

These low-hanging fruits include settlement of the Sir Creek and Wullar Barrage disputes. Of these, Modi has a special interest in Sir Creek, which divides his native Gujarat from Sindh in Pakistan.
The dispute relates to undemarcated water boundary.

The latter is a disputed navigation project on the Jhelum in Kashmir which India calls the Tulbul Navigation Project. The UPA government had virtually settled these two disputes with Pakistan, but Manmohan Singh had exhausted his political capital to settle anything at all with Islamabad by the time these disputes had been amicably resolved in principle.

Similarly, a broad settlement to Siachen has been left over on the table from the UPA's time: even the BJP government may find it difficult to push it through after it lost some of its momentum from the ruling party's defeat in the Delhi elections and the spate of corruption allegations against some BJP leaders in recent weeks.

All the same, if Modi follows in Vajpayee's footsteps and takes political risks with Islamabad by settling Sir Creek, Wullar Barrage and Siachen, he can be sure of a welcome in Islamabad that will rival anything his supporters were able to organise last year in New York's Madison Square Garden.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby Karan Dixit » 12 Jul 2015 04:21

ranjbe wrote:
Altair wrote:This meeting has the blessing of NSA. That tells something.There could be a huge political change happening in Pakistan and this could be just a long rope being handed over to Badmaash. I don't think this meeting is being done under pressure from Unkil or Aunty. Lets wait and have some popcorn.


Perhaps there is a very unidimensional viewpoint (India versus Pakistan) propagated in this forum. Please look at how China handles issues with its adversaries. It has had talks with India for 20 plus years on the border issue without conceding anything that would be harmful to its vital interests. Perhaps you should be aware that Xi has met and talked both Abe and Japan and Aquino of Phillipines, countries with which it has much worse relations than India, in Asean and other forums at least a couple of times this year. It has Strategic talks with the USA once a year. If you have strong leadership which understands its vital interests, then talking with adversaries is a good safety valve. The question for forum members is whether you trust Modi and Doval to ensure India's best interests. If you do, then dhoti-shivering about any talks does not make any sense.


Exactly!

Keep your friends close but keep your enemies even closer.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby Gagan » 12 Jul 2015 04:43

I think Modi-Doval just sacrificed Nawaz Sharif.
Nawaz Sharif plays both sides - smokes the peace pipe with India, but agrees with the Army on Kargil etc. Poor guy can't do anything else, he might be well meaning, and trying to survive in that cess pool.
He might be the most capable PM Pakistan has had. He understands exactly what Pakistan needs to come out of the mess it is in.

I think Modi-Doval want the Army to stage a coup, so that they can deal with Raheel Sharif directly. So that the COAS can't hide behind the civilian PM. Now these armywalahs direct the LET to carry out terror strikes, then hide behind the civilians.

Pakistan's one and true power center is the army corps commanders group with the COAS. That is their real cabinet. Everyone including the chaprasi in Nai Dilli knows that.

Pakistani PMs get Intel and tipoffs from India about their Army.
I think Modi-Doval would rather deal with the Coup Commander directly.

NSs days are numbered now.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby Gagan » 12 Jul 2015 05:06

India's message to NS is this:
Put the Army in its place, concentrate power within yourself, using all the civilians if you need to, then talk to us.

OR

India has intel that NS's days are numbered, and they don't want to waste time with a guy who is already neutered by the fauj and is going to be neutralized completely very soon

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby RamaY » 12 Jul 2015 05:07

^ Rumor has it that NS wants to get out of Paquistan before ISIS hits the fan. There is little to save in Paquistan except the flora fauna. He may not be welcome into the kingdom after his clever by half betrayal. He will settle in Thailand or Malaysia where he needs Indian help.

The fact that U.S. drones killed an ISIS commander in Pakistan, of all the places, means that ISIS is much close to Pindi than the world knows. I am sure it's 400% an ISI hit coordinates.

That brings us to Bad Sharif. Source tells at least four core commandoos are in RAA payroll so his days are numbered.

Rumor in dark rooms is the fascists will use the core commandoos to kill as many Muslims as possible before they are taken out. That's how terrorists will end up killing terrorists.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby A_Gupta » 12 Jul 2015 06:01

CRamS wrote:
Explain why ModiJi climbed down? What changed between his cancellation of talks the last time, and now. A coherent, convincing, cogent answer to that will set any lingering questions such as "pressure" to rest.


"Climbed down", "mini-surrender", why do you keep dhoti-shivering?

The main thing that changed between his cancellation of talks last time and now is the passage of time, and who knows what else that is invisible to us.

Some of the visible things were a decided shift engineered by NaMo from "SAARC isn't going anywhere" to "SAARC-minus-one is revving up". Another was a reported cross-border raid into Myanmar, and some tough talk by some junior ministers, that certainly rattled the Pakistanis. The "encircle India with hostile neighbors" is increasingly looking like a failed strategy for China & Pakistan.

While Pakistan is unlikely to do anything meaningful, it is **infinitely less likely** that they will do something meaningful first and then say, "see, we did something meaningful, now come and talk to us", so if you're expecting that to happen you will be perpetually disappointed.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby Guddu » 12 Jul 2015 06:15

India has conveyed to Cheen, that the economic corridor through POK is unacceptable. Cheen and Pak plan to go ahead with it. Was this an empty threat, or do we have options ?

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby Gagan » 12 Jul 2015 06:21

To all the people who are saying that China or USA or Russia laid a condition that India must talk to Pakistan.

I wonder who and how would they have conveyed this to India hain ji?
What language would have been used hain ji?

Would some leadel/babu in cheena have called up a babu of India and said "Joo guys had bettel talk to Bajisa-tan or else @#**@##" "Folget about SCO othelwise"
Really!!!???

Or would it have been said by a massa, or cheeni or roosi ambassador thus, "Our government looks forward towards the Indian PM's visit to roos for the BRICS and SCO meet, yada yada yada"

If an Indian delegation is going overseas, and a Pakistani delegation is there, it is impolite if they don't meet. Not meeting would have made news and have sent wrong signals. So my thinking is that the Indian side must have said, "WTF, lets get this thing out of the way so that we can concentrate on the real meetings, with roos and cheen"

And what groundbreaking talks can an Indian PM expect to do with a civilian PM of pakistan, everyone knows.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby Gagan » 12 Jul 2015 06:24

Guddu wrote:India has conveyed to Cheen, that the economic corridor through POK is unacceptable. Cheen and Pak plan to go ahead with it. Was this an empty threat, or do we have options ?

The geography in POK is such that any link via land will be tenuous at best, and fully at the mercy of nature.
If China thinks it can bulldoze something through, it won't be able to do much if India responds in kind.

China can do things with Pakistan with plausible deniability, and GOI will pretend it never happened. But making things overt will force GOI to act.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby Shreeman » 12 Jul 2015 07:00

Gaganullah,

The prudent thing appears to be to abstain from observations on the talks thingy. There is not a lot to support or oppose, and politics, especially international politics tends to make fools out of the best groomed leaders. Lets wait and watch. Who knows what future will throw up.

Re. PoK, I wouldnt be so sure. China can and will bulldoze through. Denying it is merely being oblivious to the truth. A PoK infra tracking discussion can capture what they have already bulldozed. A lot of it is public.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby Viv S » 12 Jul 2015 07:22

CRamS wrote:Explain why ModiJi climbed down? What changed between his cancellation of talks the last time, and now. A coherent, convincing, cogent answer to that will set any lingering questions such as "pressure" to rest.


The most obvious explanation is the SAARC summit.


There were three possible outcomes :

1. We sit it out. PM refuses to visit Islamabad. Unacceptable snub to SAARC (esp. given how positively it responded to his inauguration).

2. Relations remain in deep freeze. PM becomes first Indian PM to visits Pakistan in 18 years. Awkward, uncomfortable summit. Likely PR headache.

3. 'Dialogue' resumed in 2015. No significant progress pursued or expected. SAARC summit proceeds with a (relatively) lower public profile.

____________________

Door number 3 chosen.

Point is, if the ice has to be broken, better now in Moscow than in 2016 in Islamabad. Shaking hands and smiling for the cameras in the latter case will be a lot harder.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby pankajs » 12 Jul 2015 07:26

On pressure to talk >>

I don't know about US, Russian or Chinese pressure but when two folks are going to join such an *small* club as SCO are are not even on talking terms it does make it difficult to run the club. On top of that if the two are given to arguing their bilateral stuff on all forums it is going to undermine SCO. So it was but natural that there was pressure on India/Pak to *show*, at least just before joining the SCO, that they could have a *more normal* relationship and on talking terms.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby arun » 12 Jul 2015 07:27

Kakkaji wrote:KP Nayar's take. Pinch of salt needed:

Real outcome at Ufa: PMO trumps ministry - Back to NSA diplomacy but with a change

July 11: The most glaring outcome of the Ufa meeting between Narendra Modi and Nawaz Sharif is that in a five-and-a-half-month turf battle between the Prime Minister's Office and the external affairs ministry for control of foreign policy, the PMO has emerged victorious.

But Modi insisted at Ufa, according to trustworthy accounts, that the resumption of dialogue should be at the level of the national security advisers, not between the foreign secretaries.

The problem post-Ufa is that Doval is more like Natwar Singh and less like Dixit. This writer has had two long conversations with Doval in Washington about Pakistan: he is obsessed with the "nuisance" neighbour - as Modi referred to Pakistan in Dhaka recently.

On the face of it, the Ufa process could survive the obsession of one man in government. But the process may be a non-starter if its driver on the Indian side, as the conversation in Washington revealed, is stuck in a time warp on Pakistan.

Doval's view of the country he is tasked to engage has not changed from the time he was posted in Islamabad as an intelligence officer several decades ago. But Pakistan has evolved and the time warp does not augur well for what Modi wants to do.


Unlike in India, Sartaj Aziz, the adviser on foreign affairs and national security, is monarch of all he surveys in Pakistan's external affairs - as long as he does not upset the Army General Headquarters in Rawalpindi, of course.

And Sartaj Aziz precisely knows what it is to deal with a BJP government in New Delhi. He could not have forgotten Atal Bihari Vajpayee's cold, menacing stare as the NDA Prime Minister's trusted lieutenant, Jaswant Singh, hauled him over the coals on Pakistan's betrayal of the Lahore spirit kindled by Vajpayee's visit. Aziz had gone to 7 Race Course Road, Vajpayee's residence, to negotiate a settlement of Kargil.

If Modi retains his present reservoir of political capital in the coming months, he could pick the low-hanging fruit in India-Pakistan relations before he heads to Islamabad for next year's South Asian summit. Sources close to him insist that this is what the Prime Minister intends to do.

These low-hanging fruits include settlement of the Sir Creek and Wullar Barrage disputes. Of these, Modi has a special interest in Sir Creek, which divides his native Gujarat from Sindh in Pakistan.
The dispute relates to undemarcated water boundary.

The latter is a disputed navigation project on the Jhelum in Kashmir which India calls the Tulbul Navigation Project. The UPA government had virtually settled these two disputes with Pakistan, but Manmohan Singh had exhausted his political capital to settle anything at all with Islamabad by the time these disputes had been amicably resolved in principle.

Similarly, a broad settlement to Siachen has been left over on the table from the UPA's time: even the BJP government may find it difficult to push it through after it lost some of its momentum from the ruling party's defeat in the Delhi elections and the spate of corruption allegations against some BJP leaders in recent weeks.

All the same, if Modi follows in Vajpayee's footsteps and takes political risks with Islamabad by settling Sir Creek, Wullar Barrage and Siachen, he can be sure of a welcome in Islamabad that will rival anything his supporters were able to organise last year in New York's Madison Square Garden.


Going through my post from page 1 of this thread (Clicky) I wonder how K.P.Nayar conjures up an agenda for talks that ballon’s to include Sir Creek, Wullar Barrage and Siachen :

arun wrote:Climbdown by the Modi Government. Talks upgraded from Foreign Secretary level in Multilateral SAARC related format to National Security Adviser level in Bilateral format with opportunity to the terrorism fomenting Islamic Republic of Pakistan to talk of Indian fomented terrorism involving Baloch, Mohajir and Pathan Taliban.

Statement read out by Foreign Secretaries of India and Pakistan in Ufa, Russia (July 10, 2015)

July 10, 2015

The Prime Ministers of Pakistan and India met today on the sidelines of the SCO Summit in Ufa.The meeting was held in a cordial atmosphere.The two leaders exchanged views on issues of bilateral and regional interest.

They agreed that India and Pakistan have a collective responsibility to ensure peace and promote development.To do so, they are prepared to discuss all outstanding issues.

Both leaders condemned terrorism in all its forms and agreed to cooperate with each other to eliminate this menace from South Asia.

They also agreed on the following steps to be taken by the two sides:

1.A meeting in New Delhi between the two NSAs to discuss all issues connected to terrorism.
2.Early meetings of DG BSF and DG Pakistan Rangers followed by that of DGMOs.
3.Decision for release of fishermen in each other’s custody, along with their boats, within a period of 15 days.
4.Mechanism for facilitating religious tourism.
5.Both sides agreed to discuss ways and means to expedite the Mumbai case trial, including additional information like providing voice samples.

Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif reiterated his invitation to Prime Minister Modi to visit Pakistan for the SAARC Summit in 2016.Prime Minister Modi accepted the invitation.

Ufa, Russia
July 10, 2015

Clicky

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby pankajs » 12 Jul 2015 07:32

KP Nayar's take wrote:All the same, if Modi follows in Vajpayee's footsteps and takes political risks with Islamabad by settling Sir Creek, Wullar Barrage and Siachen, he can be sure of a welcome in Islamabad that will rival anything his supporters were able to organise last year in New York's Madison Square Garden.

This is the key line in the whole fart. It is as if winning the adulation of the Baki public is the ultimate achievement for any PM of India. There is the unstated nob@ll p1ss too in the background.

This is the same enticement that has been dangled before all PM's of India by the WKK brigade and their backers worldwide. That is why they dare to imagine. As if Modi is bothered!

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby Gagan » 12 Jul 2015 08:01

KP Nayyar is going senile!
Wullar Barrage is an Issue hain?
This is an euphism for the Kishenganga project and the Tulbul Navigation project, which the Kishenganga dam and the Wullar barrage control.

India's Kishenganga dam diverts water into the near dry wullar lake to rejevunate that lake and make the Jhelum navigable in the valley. The wullar barrage, Uri 1 and Uri 2 dams control outflow from the Jhelum into Pakistan. These 4 projects have made Pakistan's Neelum Jhelum project a big dud.

WRT Siachen: There is NO PART of the glacier, Saltoro range heights that Pakistan has access to. They are all across in very low heights, most positions are several hundred feet below India's positions, and at the mercy of the IA. When Pakistan is not even on the Saltoro range, what to say of the actual siachen glacier hain ji? Once you get on the Saltoro range, then the glacier is several Kms north in the heights.

Nayyar says that Doval is Obsessed with Pakistan? Thank god for that! I think he is probably no more obsessed than any of the people who post here. But the NSA also specializes on other international security relations, which KP Nayyer can't seem to fathom much.

What a silly article.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby arun » 12 Jul 2015 08:13

Our Narendra Modi led BJP Governments announcement of holding bilateral National Security Adviser level talks after cancelling lower Foreign Secretary level talks in a multilateral SAARC milieu with the Mohammadden Terrorist fomenting Islamic Republic of Pakistan, is indeed a bad idea. Prabhu Chawla writing in the Indian Express.

Modi, Instead of Extending Olive Branch, Should Isolate Pakistan Globally to Resolve Stand-off :

New Indian Express

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby johneeG » 12 Jul 2015 08:20

Gagan wrote:To all the people who are saying that China or USA or Russia laid a condition that India must talk to Pakistan.

I wonder who and how would they have conveyed this to India hain ji?
What language would have been used hain ji?

Would some leadel/babu in cheena have called up a babu of India and said "Joo guys had bettel talk to Bajisa-tan or else @#**@##" "Folget about SCO othelwise"
Really!!!???

Or would it have been said by a massa, or cheeni or roosi ambassador thus, "Our government looks forward towards the Indian PM's visit to roos for the BRICS and SCO meet, yada yada yada"

If an Indian delegation is going overseas, and a Pakistani delegation is there, it is impolite if they don't meet. Not meeting would have made news and have sent wrong signals. So my thinking is that the Indian side must have said, "WTF, lets get this thing out of the way so that we can concentrate on the real meetings, with roos and cheen"

And what groundbreaking talks can an Indian PM expect to do with a civilian PM of pakistan, everyone knows.



First, Pakistan being Pakistan, it released Lakhvi. Bhaarath warned that such a move was unacceptable. But, Pakistan simply cared two hoots.

Bhaarath decided that it was useless to deal with Pakistan directly and decided to raise the whole issue internationally.

Bhaarath has a very strong case on 26/11. 26/11 is an international issue because Bhaarath claims that Pakistani citizens planned and attacked Bhaarath. Pakistan initially said that they were 'non-state actors'. When Bhaarath asked for either punishing those pakistani citizens in pakistan or deporting them to Bhaarath, Pakistan started its treacherous games. On the other hand, US has already sentenced, David Headley. Bhaarath has already hanged Kasab. UN has already agreed that Hafiz Sayeed is a terrorist. And banned LeT and JuD. But, Hafiz Sayeed continues to function freely in Pakistan. All this shows that Pakistan is sponsoring terrorism on Bhaarath.

Bhaarath put this case in global forums demanding punishment on Pakistan.

Then, China came to Pakistan's rescue in most forums.

China blocked India's move at UN for action against Pakistan over Lakhvi's release
June 23, 2015.

Now, after this move by china, Bhaarath was loudly critcizing China and the whole 'international community' about their ineptness and hypocrisy in dealing with state sponsored terrorism like 26/11.

Then, after a few weeks, there was meet of Pakistan PM and Bhaarath's PM. One could clearly see that the pakistani delegation were very dejected and unhappy. It looked as if they were being forced into this meeting.

Then, the joint communique was solely focused on terrorism with special emphasis on 26/11. Many pakistani commentators have criticized this as a failure of pakistan. Pakistanis were wondering why the Pakistani delegation surrendered to Bhaarath so abjectly.

The pakistani delegation are not idiots. They would be well trained in all the usual pakistani tricks. So, what happened? Why did they simply accept Bhaarath's terms on terrorism and fail to raise the issue of Kashmir, siachin, balochistan, karachi, MQM, ghazwa-e-hind, ...etc.?

I think the following the happened behind the doors:

[Speculation]
Once Pakistan was saved by China on the global forums, Bhaarath started loudly critcizing China and the whole 'international community' about their ineptness and hypocrisy in dealing with state sponsored terrorism like 26/11.

So, china, russia and US(particularly China) must have conveyed to Bhaarath that they will put pressure on Pakistan and make it deliver on 26/11 in particular and terrorism in general. But, please no more, sanctions talk. Because, I don't think China would want to be get the stain of being a pakistan terrorist supporter.

Bhaarath would have agreed for this particular round on the pre-condition that if Pakistan fails to deliver again on 26/11, then there must be some punishment from the international community on Pakistan. The 'global community' must have assured Bhaarath that they will make sure Pakistan will deliver.

Then, the international community(particularly china) would have then put pressure on Pakistan to talk to Bhaarath about terrorism(particularly 26/11) and clear up the matter. They might have told Pakistan that they cannot go on saving Pakistan's a$$ everytime if they continue to act like idiots.

[/Speculation End]

Now, Bhaarath would step up pressure on Pakistan and ask for deliverance on 26/11. If there is nothing to show after some time, say 6 months, then Bhaarath will go back to these 'global forums' and again raise ruckus.

One could say that there is no point in trusting pakistan or its four-fathers. But, I don't think Bhaarath is trusting anyone. Bhaarath is putting pressure on pakistan and its four-fathers.

----
Why can't pakistan just punish Lakhvi and be done with it?

Maybe because that would hamper their home grown terror cottage industry if the terrorists feel that pakistan army cannot protect them anymore. And if the Lakhvi gets deported to any country other than pakistan, then the state of pakistan itself could be implicated by interrogating Lakhvi. And that would place pakistan in bigger problems.

So, its seems like Bhaarath is simply tightening the noose around Pakistan's neck.

----
Treachery of kongis:
What did the kongis do. The kongis tried to save the bakis in 26/11 by raising the false case of Samjautha. They were trying to weaken the case of dhesh. And give an equal equal to bakis.

This shows that kongis were actually conniving with the bakis in weakening the dhesh.

----
That Nayyar guy seems to be a paid agent of bakis. Nothing wrong with that. But, he should not pretend to be a neutral objective commentator.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby ramana » 12 Jul 2015 08:25

KPN is the obsessed one of peace at any cost. Should ship him to Pakistan he like so much.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby pankajs » 12 Jul 2015 09:00

I don't think Modi is expecting much out of the talks. May be a more peaceful border, etc but progress on 26/11 is too far fetched.

While this gov may take up 26/11 on the global stage in a big way after the expected Baki monkey games, I don't think it is going to rely solely on the international community to deliver.

There are 2 ways to view the renewed engagement with Bakistan.

1. Under pressure (Domestic, International, China, Russia, US, SCO, aliens, etc)
2. Confidence in their ability to handle the emerging scenario at least in the neighborhood, especially wrt offensive defense infra/setup being in place to deal with any potential negative and unforeseen fallout of the outreach.

I think the recently initiated engagement signals the confidence that Modi/Doval have in their ability to play the monkey game inside the enemy territory.
Last edited by pankajs on 12 Jul 2015 09:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby RamaY » 12 Jul 2015 09:03

Good summary there JohneeG Garu!

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby arun » 12 Jul 2015 09:53

Engaging with Pakistan: Modi sends strong message by fielding Doval instead of MEA to deal with Islamabad

Why must India’s foreign policy regards the Mohammadden Terrorist fomenting Islamic Republic of Pakistan be constrained by “entertaining hopes of improving relations” ?

Why must India’s foreign policy regards the Mohammadden Terrorist fomenting Islamic Republic of Pakistan not be instead animated by the sheer pleasure of being ornery and having a punching bag to indulge bouts of sadistic behavior when the mood so comes over us?

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby Tuvaluan » 12 Jul 2015 10:19

JohneeG wrote:Now, Bhaarath would step up pressure on Pakistan and ask for deliverance on 26/11. If there is nothing to show after some time, say 6 months, then Bhaarath will go back to these 'global forums' and again raise ruckus.


And what exactly does Bharath think it can achieve by bloviating at "global forums"? power talks and bullsh!t walks. The PM and NSA have not said anything recently that contradicts their earlier stance...why do people assume that any NSA-NSA talks will not involve asking Lakhvi to be handed over to India. Who gives a sh** as to whether china thinks lakhvi is culpable or not -- chinese scum are a bunch of nuclear weapons proliferating communist mofos and their actions supporting paki terrorists is in line with who they are -- scumbags. No reason to pretend that their weighing in on Lakhvi's culpability has any weight on what India's position has been. India has just invited Japan to the Malabar naval exercises with the US -- about time too....that is the real response to the chinese scum.


Various media talking heads like KP Nayar are repeating the same peacenik horsedung like they have done a dozen times before...so why should they be taken any more seriously now than the previous instances?

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby Shreeman » 12 Jul 2015 10:33

KP Nayar
@Kparam
Consulting Editor, THE TELEGRAPH
Washington D.C. and New Delhi


What's with the DC?

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby Tuvaluan » 12 Jul 2015 10:35

@suhasinihaider Important meeting between @PMOIndia and PM Sharif. Affirms fundamental ...talks are the default, not an aberration.

Nirupama Rao ‏@NMenonRao Jul 10
Nirupama Rao retweeted Suhasini Haidar
Wonder if we asked 21-year-olds in both countries to fashion a playbook for Indo-Pak what their thoughts would be.


21-year old pakis reared on paki textbooks (the miniscule percent that even make it to school and not a madrassa) and listening to the hate mongering in paki madrassas for the most part, and this NMenon "wonders" what their thoughts would be -- take a wild guess, Ms. Rao, I am sure you will figure it out. :roll:

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby arun » 12 Jul 2015 11:27

X Posted from the “Pashtun Civil War” thread.

The “Jihad in the Path of Allah” or “Jihad Fi Sabilliah” part of motto of “Faith, Piety, Jihad In the Path of Allah” or “Iman Taqwa Jihad Fi Sabilillah” of the Punjabi dominated Pakistan Army, in action.

Green on Green Intra-Mohammadden Ramadan month violence as Uniformed Jihadi’s of the majority Punjabi dominated Military take on the Un-uniformed minority Pathan Jihadi’s of the TTP in the battle to determine who among them are entitled to be the “More Pure” in the “Land of the Pure” aka the Islamic Republic of Pakistan:

4 soldiers, 9 militants dead in Waziristan op


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