Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10, 2015

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby SSridhar » 21 Aug 2015 10:26

We would never know how far the following article is true, but it is interesting.

NSA talks: Will Modi's new approach on Pak of engaging Nawaz Sharif & responding to Gen. Sharif's provocations be fruitful? - Pranab Dhal Samanta, Economic Times
Indo-Pak talks are on, the day's drama over the house arrest and release of Hurriyat leaders notwithstanding. And India goes into the August 23-24 National Security Advisor (NSA) level talks with a clear strategy - two approaches for the two Sharifs.

Pakistani PM Nawaz Sharif is eager to maintain dialogue, senior Indian officials said. They said the Indian PM's strategy is to keep engaging with the civilian government while being tough when provocations come from the Pakistani army - led by General Raheel Sharif. The idea is to not let General Sharif derail talks sought by Prime Minister Sharif.

"We want an opening in Pakistan...something we can work on while we don't let their army get away with anything," a senior official familiar with the PM's thinking said. Officials who spoke to ET for this story did so on the condition they not be identified.

TEA WITH BARACK


Officials said Prime Minister Modi had discussed elements of this strategy with major Western leaders. During his January visit this year, US President Barack Obama hadn't raised Pakistan during formal talks. But talking a walk on Hyderabad House lawns before sitting down for tea with his host, Obama told Modi he wanted to understand the latter's approach on Pakistan and hoped to have a chat on that "over there (at the tea-table)". Modi, officials said, responded briefly as they walked. He told Obama that the US must understand that the larger problem was Pakistan itself. Modi recounted he had wanted to reach out to Pakistan after the Peshawar tragedy, but suddenly there was talk of Pakistan releasing Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi.

During tea with Obama, the Indian PM elaborated his strategy that he explained later to other Western leaders as well, France's Francois Hollande and Germany's Angela Merkel.

During his visit to France and while talking to President Hollande, Modi recalled his chat with 'Barack'. The PM told the French leader that what he had suggested to Obama is may be the time had come for all major democracies to adopt one, single approach towards a meddling Pakistan Army and in doing so, show solidarity with the democratically elected government in Islamabad.

Modi shared with Hollande a 'radical' suggestion he had made to Obama - Western leaders and senior officials visiting Pakistan do away with customary meetings with Pakistan Army officials. This, Modi told his French host, would convey a strong message that the democratic world was united in its preference towards the civilian government. The PM articulated similar views to German Chancellor Angela Merkel.


BE SMART, NOT HARD

Senior officials said Modi started deeply rethinking his Pakistan policy at the beginning of this year. The PM came to conclusion that allowing cross-border firing or terror group activities to affect engagement doesn't help India. A hardline attitude from India allows Pakistan to complain that the Indian PM was interested only in belligerent responses on ground, not dialogue.

The basic framework of the Modi strategy of two lines with two Sharifs was finalized by April. By the time New Delhi dialed Islamabad to set up the meeting between Modi and his Pakistani counterpart in Ufa, Russia, the policy construct was clearer.
As a top official involved in the exercise, put it: "Two separate tracks for Sharif and Sharif." The most important aim of the two lines for two Sharifs strategy, officials said, was to engage with Pakistan in a way that strengthens Pakistani democracy. And to the show the world India is serious about dialogue.

This doesn't contradict India's longstanding policy of upping diplomatic pressure on Pakistan to deal with terrorists. The recent joint declaration between India and the UAE that spoke of India's concerns about terrorism is an example of this, officials said.

UNVEILED AT UFA

India deployed the two-lines-two-Sharifs strategy in Ufa, the Russian city that hosted the BRICS and Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) meetings in early July. India was a participant at both meetings while Pakistan was present for SCO deliberations.

New Delhi had spoken to Islamabad before the Ufa meetings. Nawaz Sharif, Indian officials said, demonstrated a strong desire to resume dialogue.

The usual exchanges had taken place, with Pakistanis expressing fears that border tensions were affecting Kashmir peace and Indians reiterating their demand on Lakhvi. The joint statement, however, made a clear mention of dialogue.

When the joint statement was ready, Sharif had suggested that as per convention the two foreign secretaries could brief the respective media. But Modi, Indian officials said, came up with another idea - that the foreign secretaries should read out the statement, half and half, and take no questions, The aim was to ensure that there were no gaps in interpretation and that the two leaders appeared on the same page in their wish to resume dialogue.

Officials said the idea of a dialogue with Pakistan's civilian, democratic power centre was a Modi idea that wasn't deliberated in any great detail with senior ministers. The cabinet committee on security hadn't discussed this ahead of the Ufa meet. None of India's top minister knew about diplomatic strategy at Ufa.

On his return, Modi assured some of his senior colleagues that Pakistan has made a commitment on Lakhvi. Modi's key officials passed around broad details of Ufa talks later among cabinet heavyweights.

STAY THE COURSE

Officials said Modi continues to stand by the Ufa commitment despite repeated provocations from Pakistan. It was significant, officials pointed out, that when the first round of cross-border firing happened after the Ufa meet, India waited 24 hours before responding. But response will always happen to military/terror provocations.

"The big shift between the previous government's approach and this one's is that this government will retaliate, it won't tolerate provocation beyond a point," a senior official said. Instructions have gone to the Border Security Force that each time Pakistani army starts shelling, BSF must retaliate with greater force and seek to inflict greater damage.

But simultaneously, Modi has shown willingness to be flexible when it comes to issues like Hurriyat. From a position of not allowing any interactions between Pakistan and Hurriyat the government has moved to allowing 'social engagements' as long as Hurriyat doesn't appear to be a third party in bilateral talks. Modi, offcials said, has calibrated his government's line on this to ensure that the Hurriyat irritant doesn't turn into a conversation breaker in the future.

GOOD SHARIF DELIVERS?

But what can India expect from Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif if General Raheel Sharif continues to create trouble? India's first expectation is that PM Sharif delivers on the 26/11 case. India wants the Pakistani PM to ensure some credible movement on the case, leading to a conviction. This, Indian officials say, can 'unlock' many more conversations, conversations Nawaz Sharif himself is keen to have.

Second, with India showing a a clear intent that it wants to keep dealing with the civilian government, New Delhi hopes Nawaz Sharif will be able to leverage this with the Pakistani Army and rebuild confidence along the border and the Line of Control. A range of confidence building measures, including nuclear CBMs, can materialize if Islamabad shows intent, added sources.

MANAGING THE MESSAGE

Officials said Modi's new Pakistan policy depends crucially on managing how the message gets out. What to say and how to say and whether Indian and Pakistani interlocutors are on the same page - these are key elements that need careful preparations.

Modi managed the message in Ufa himself, officials said and the two leaders appeared on the same page. But even then, Nawaz Sharif was critiqued in Pakistan because the joint statement did not refer to Kashmir. Senior Indian diplomats said India would have had no problem if Pakistan had wanted to add the stock line: "discuss all outstanding issues including Kashmir". Indian officials gave credit to Nawaz Sharif for being more interested in starting dialogue than getting caught up in such pettifogging details.

But Pakistani officials, Indian officials say, also realized from the Ufa/Kashmir controversy in Pakistan that how any dialogue process plays out in public perception is crucial. That's why, officials pointed out, the NSA level talks are starting with both sides saying they have their demands and dossiers. Whatever goes on behind the scenes, perception has to be managed.

The NSA-level talks this weekend will be a test case for Narendra Modi's new Pakistan policy. General Sharif has "done everything to call off the talks," officials said, pointing to Wednesday's and Thursday's Hurriyat drama as the latest example.

"More provocations may come over the next few days," a senior official said, "this will test the strength of conviction of the new policy".

"The PM doesn't like like to be seen to be appearing conceding space but at the same time is firm on the two Sharifs/two lines policy". August 23-24 will be a big marker in Narendra Modi's foreign policy.


I am very pessimistic on the ability to drive a wedge between the Pakistani political class and the Pakistani Army. The frustration that some Pakistani political parties express with the Army now and then is not a true barometer of these parties rejecting Army's intervention in governance altogether. If Zardari spews venom against the Army, there is always an Imran Khan waiting in the wings to support the Army. Apart from the tradition of the Army's clout from day one of its Independence, the Pakistani politicians are also unsure of themselves when it comes to dealing with India and are therefore quite willing to concede space to the Army. Political parties also realize that masses do not like anything being said against the Army. In the worst case of there being no trustworthy or pliant political party, the Army can always stage a coup and the masses would welcome it at least initially because their anger would be so much against the inept politicians. The western powers (like the Pakistani judiciary) would approve of it as a "phase of Constitutional deviation dictated by necessity".

Secondly, no western leader is going to listen to the sane advice of discarding meetings with the GHQ, for they know that the real power is with them. Their needs and necessities are different from ours. Surprsingly, even on those occasions in the last decade when their armed forces doing duty in Afghanistan lost men due to the blatant perfidy of the Pakistani Army & ISI, they rather suffered the ignominy (except on one occasion) than indulging in retribution.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby sudhan » 21 Aug 2015 10:33

Bhyphor rexine, hainji? I propose that all porki phaiters have a ' snap on - snap off' contraption to fit an industrial strength diaper.. just like the contraption used by the brown shalwars of pindi..

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby sudhan » 21 Aug 2015 11:29

The article posted by SS ji is digging up mixed feelings in me..

This whole idea of strengthening pork democracy, in my opinion, is a still born one. The park army is too well entrenched in the paki minds to be rooted out or defanged after a few rounds of talks. If the world leaders do agree to NaMo's strategy, the brown pants can quickly activate it's drones (Im L'dim and qadri) and cut the civvies to size and muscle its way into the national affairs. Expecting the good sharif to deliver on court cases is an equally unpractical expectation. The gun and bullet will always trump the gavel.

If the pak army is to be cut to size the only way I can think of is complete obliteration.

On the other hand I believe what is known to public is not the whole strategy. There must be other pieces of the puzzle that are not known for all for obvious reasons.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby somnath » 21 Aug 2015 11:37

^^^This is exactly what every single govt, since PVNR has tried with Pak (post the Kashmir militancy). Nothing terribly original.

And in general, perhaps the only viable strategy. Ratcheting up tensions doesnt work for us, as we are more sensitive to international attention on Kashmir/flashpoint etc. Covert action - we neither have the capacity, nor probably the political will to accept the backlash/failures.

The only realistic game in town is to batten the hatches down (border management), and then periodically talk to the civvies to give an impression something's going on.

Actually, as a strategy its not too shabby - after all, in the last 25 years, we have leapfrogged Pak many times over in antional power terms. The problem arises with the penchant of all Indian PMs for summitry. Everyone wants to have a grand "path breaking" summit. That is silly, we should stick to low level - DGMO/Jt Secy - contacts and be over with it.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby Vikas » 21 Aug 2015 12:09

Give peace a chance, Destroy Pakistan

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby SSridhar » 21 Aug 2015 12:19

sudhan wrote:On the other hand I believe what is known to public is not the whole strategy. There must be other pieces of the puzzle that are not known for all for obvious reasons.

Insh'a Alla'h.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby SSridhar » 21 Aug 2015 13:13

Shameless Pakistani liars at it again. Pakistan claims that it called off the Commonwealth Parliamentary Conference (CPC) while it was actually shifted as a result of voting against Islamabad as a venue !

Pakistan cancels C’wealth conference after pressure to invite held Kashmir’s speaker - DAWN
Pakistan on Thursday called off the 61st Commonwealth Parliamentary Conference (CPC), scheduled to be held here from Sept 30 to Oct 8 following pressure from other members to invite the speaker of the legislature of Indian Occupied Kashmir (IOK).

Earlier, retired General Pervez Musharraf, as president of Pakistan, had invited an IOK delegation to the country in 2007. “That was the decision of a dictator. As far as the commitment of the democratically-elected government with the Kashmir cause is concerned, we are resolved not to compromise,” National Assembly Speaker Sardar Ayaz Sadiq said after announcing the cancellation of the conference.

Mr Sadiq was unanimously elected president of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association (CPA) in October 2014 at the 60th CPC, held in Cameroon which decided that the next conference of the 53-member body would be held in Islamabad.

Addressing a press conference at the Parliament House, Mr Sadiq said that the CPA secretariat in London had called him and asked him to formally invite the speaker of the IOK assembly. “In response, I forwarded him the United Nations’ resolutions on Kashmir, along with my written reply that due to these resolutions, it is not possible for me to extend such an invitation.”

He said that the speaker of the Bangladesh assembly, who is also the CPA chairperson, had also requested him to review the decision. “However, I categorically told her that it was next to impossible for Pakistan to change its principled stand on Kashmir,” he said.

In addition to the chairperson, Pakistan’s stance was also conveyed to the CPA’s 35 members of the executive during a video-conference {which then voted to shift the meeting out of Islamabad!} , Mr Sadiq said.

He said it was not appropriate to host the CPC while compromising on the Kashmir cause, adding that the CPA had insisted that Pakistan invite the IOK assembly speaker. “I tried my best to convince them otherwise, but finally decided to cancel the upcoming conference instead of changing our earlier stance,” he explained.

He said that the CPC would have been a magnificent opportunity to project Pakistan’s soft image as some 550 delegates from member countries were due in the federal capital to attend the conference.

Pakistan had vehemently made the case for holding the 61st CPC in Islamabad and lobbied furiously with members, many of whom had serious apprehensions regarding security and were reluctant to come, he claimed. {What? Is this something to crow about? These Pakistanis are inside-out.}

To a question, the National Assembly speaker said that the Indian government did not want Pakistan to hold the CPC and had therefore linked their participation in the event to an invitation for the IOK speaker.

Despite the cancellation of the conference, he said, Pakistan used this opportunity to once again highlight the Kashmir dispute as the unfinished agenda of partition and remind the global community, especially CPA members, about the plight of the Kashmiri people with the dire need for an amicable solution as per their aspirations. “Pakistan will raise this issue at the upcoming Speakers’ Conference in New York and the meeting of the International Parliamentary Union in Geneva,” Mr Sadiq asserted.{A self-immolating obsession and the Pakistanis do not even realize that}

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby AjayKK » 21 Aug 2015 13:34

Baloch - the people the world forgot

By Vikram Sood |Posted 20-Aug-2015

http://www.mid-day.com/articles/baloch- ... t/16469159

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby rsingh » 21 Aug 2015 14:12

First GOI promised surprise. Where is the surprise? BTW if any of the Baluchistan libration leader missing? We have to find it out. May be that is the surprise.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby SSridhar » 21 Aug 2015 14:38

Three Christians arrested over ‘blasphemous’ poster - DT
The police arrested three members of the Christian community under terrorism laws for using the word “prophet” on a poster to describe a dead pastor.

Area police chief Shahid Tanveer said that the men were arrested from Gujrat after police spotted posters marking the 20th anniversary of the death of priest Fazal Masih that referred to him using the Urdu word for prophet. “We have arrested three men, including the son of the priest, because they used the word prophet for the late Fazal Masih.”

In Pakistan and rest of the Muslim world, the word is used only for Prophets (PBUH) of Allah and anyone claiming to be one is liable to be charged under the blasphemy law.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby A_Gupta » 21 Aug 2015 15:41

R. Jagannathan says, keep talking but give nothing.
http://www.firstpost.com/world/why-paki ... 01906.html

Pakistan's alleged irrationality and nurturing of dangerous jihadi groups in order to harm India is rooted in the rationality of the aims of the Deep State. Its goals are to ensure the following: retention of effective power in the hands of the army; grabbing what territory it can from India through sweet talk or jihadi action; preventing India from concentrating its energies on economic development and growth; establishing the supremacy of Islam by defeating "Hindu India", et al. Just as suicide bombers seek psychic victories rather than real ones, Pakistan has no qualms about destroying itself if, in the process, it can destroy us as well. The reason why jihad is so important to Pakistan is that it knows it cannot defeat India in any normal war.

However illegitimate or irrational we think these aims are, if you do accept these goals, the Pakistani posture of unremitting hostility to India is entirely rational. So Pakistan will always do the following: send jihadis over for decades on end even if it damages or destroys itself in the process; tie up with any anti-India force (whether a state actor or non-state, which means China and movements like Khalistan) to damage us; plan economic sabotage (this was the real purpose of the 1993 Mumbai blasts, not just revenge for the riots that preceded), distribute of counterfeit currency in India (which also helps finance jihad at no cost beyond printing fake money); exacerbate social tensions inside India by using religious and caste faultlines; prevent civilian governments inside Pakistan from gaining the upper hand with the army and ISI; and - most important - use dialogue as a tool to wrest one-sided concessions from us, and provoke India to suspend talks frequently to show that Pakistan is one seeking peace, and India is the warmonger.

Given this Pakistani strategy, what should be our counter? Our strategy needs many prongs, including a two-faced policy of sweet talk and hard action. The five prongs of this strategy should be the following:

One, emphasise growth and the building of economic power as the primary objectives of Indian state policy. The US defeated Communist Soviet Union not by a military buildup alone, but by making western economic supremacy unbeatable. We can beat Pakistan by defeating it economically.

Two, building effective border defence - which actually goes without saying, but is worth repeating – against both Pakistan and China, if necessary by developing tactical nuclear weapons.

Three, strengthening state-level police forces that can take on terrorists without the army or NSG having to step in. The police are our first line of defence against terrorism, but we have weakened them for political reasons. The Gurdaspur terror strike was handled by the police, not the army or NSG. But the defenders had poor equipment while the terrorists had armour-piercing guns. Clearly, our police forces have to be retrained and strengthened from below to tackle terror.

Four, we have to build covert capabilities. This means both better intelligence (both electronic and spies inside Pakistan), and offering covert support to groups fighting for autonomy and independence from Pakistan. We should support the Baloch, Sind, Mohajir and other struggles against Punjabi tyranny. The core of anti-India ideology lies in Punjabi control of the Deep State and jihadism. This needs to be smashed. India has no stake in a united Pakistan.

Five, practice the art of jaw jaw while being ready for war-war. We must keep talking till it hurts them, not us. As a democracy, talking can never hurt us - as long as we don't expect too much from it. Let us be clear: it is Pakistan that wants to abort the NSA-level talks since it does not want to listen to evidence being amassed by Doval & Co about its involvement with terror. We already have one live jihadi in our custody to confront them with. This is why Pakistan is provoking us to get us to break off the talks.

Pakistan's invites to the separatists for talks are meant to provoke us, not to get ideas from them. They are being used for Pakistan’s purposes. When Pakistan has no further need for them, they will be sold down the Indus river. Our attitude should be one of indifference: sure talk to them if you want. If anything useful comes of it let us know. In fact, we should stump Pakistan by calling all J&K parties - the mainstream political parties, the Hurriyat and Panun Kashmir, among others – for talks on restoring peace. We can then tell the Hurriyat that they are being used. They may not be easy to convince, but talks should never be a problem.

If Pakistan wants to bring up Kashmir at the NSA-level talks next week, we should be ready: let us talk about Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, Gilgit and Baltistan. We should talk about when Pakistan plans to give these areas back to us as per the instrument of accession signed by Hari Singh in 1948. We should ask Pakistan why it gave away territory to China without involving us. We should discuss human rights and AFSPA too - and tell Pakistan that as long as they send jihadis over, we are unable to reduce the army's role in Kashmir and hence the need for AFSPA. AFSPA can go the minute their murderous "baraatis" return to their homes in Pakistan instead of overstaying their welcome here and tormenting the locals. If they want to bring up so-called Hindu terror, so be it. We can have the pleasure of paying them back in their own coin, by dismissing their evidence as “interesting literature.”

The reason why we should always be pro-dialogue is because that is the one thing the Pakistani army is afraid of. We should never concede anything in the dialogue except when there is genuine give-and-take. There should be no unilateral concessions from our side, as in the past.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby Dipanker » 21 Aug 2015 16:31

somnath wrote:^^^This is exactly what every single govt, since PVNR has tried with Pak (post the Kashmir militancy). Nothing terribly original.

And in general, perhaps the only viable strategy. Ratcheting up tensions doesnt work for us, as we are more sensitive to international attention on Kashmir/flashpoint etc. Covert action - we neither have the capacity, nor probably the political will to accept the backlash/failures.

The only realistic game in town is to batten the hatches down (border management), and then periodically talk to the civvies to give an impression something's going on.

Actually, as a strategy its not too shabby - after all, in the last 25 years, we have leapfrogged Pak many times over in antional power terms. The problem arises with the penchant of all Indian PMs for summitry. Everyone wants to have a grand "path breaking" summit. That is silly, we should stick to low level - DGMO/Jt Secy - contacts and be over with it.


Border mgmt. of the type where Paki ceasefire violation is responded to by orders of magnitude heavier fire power with an intent to kill and destroy the posts/areas where the fire is coming from, should be the norm. The strategy here would be to make a the Pakis realize over a period of time that it does not pay start random fire across the LOC and the cost to them is much more.

Support all the independent movements, Baluchistan, Jiye Sindh, Free Balwaristan, etc. Develop assets among these disaffected people of Pakistan. Long term goal should be to help these areas secede from Pakistan.

Withdraw the MFN stating that Pakistan was given enough time to respond in kind and has failed to do so.
Hurt them on diplomatic front on every possible opportunity.

Stop cricket/Bollywood type interaction completely, revoke visas of the Pakis working in Bollywood, stating the hostile environment created by Pakistan, these things can't go on simultaneously, Pakis have to behave to earn these privileges.

This list can go on and on...
Last edited by Dipanker on 21 Aug 2015 16:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby Gagan » 21 Aug 2015 16:37

No CSF after 2015 == No restrictions on Bak Fauj to not do a coo either.

No CSF == 400% chance of a coo
AoA

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby Gagan » 21 Aug 2015 16:39

Stopping Bollywood in Pak is something that I don't support.
Our Bollywood is our soft power, if we make money out of the bakis that is a good thing onlee.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby Dipanker » 21 Aug 2015 16:57

Not stopping Bollywood in Pakistan but denying visa to Paki who are currently working in Bollywood, stating that such interactions are not possible in the hostile environment created by Pakistan, such interactions are only possible if Pakistan maintains peace.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby habal » 21 Aug 2015 17:23

if pakis have so much visible takleef with meeting NSA, then their comditions must be agreed. Why not ? Let them meet hurrirats and then after paki NSA left throw them into jail. Also declare high comissioner persona non grata after the meet.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby SSridhar » 21 Aug 2015 17:47

Dipanker wrote:Not stopping Bollywood in Pakistan but denying visa to Paki who are currently working in Bollywood, stating that such interactions are not possible in the hostile environment created by Pakistan, such interactions are only possible if Pakistan maintains peace.

The trouble there is that Bollywood would rise in revolt en masse as their income will be affected if films are not screened there, which Pakistan would certainly resort to. Secular & Liberal Indian newspapers would blow their heads off as will 'eminent people' who will send a petition to the President. With friends like these who are willing to thwart every move, we don't need a Pakistan.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby SSridhar » 21 Aug 2015 17:50

habal wrote:if pakis have so much visible takleef with meeting NSA, then their comditions must be agreed. Why not ? Let them meet hurrirats and then after paki NSA left throw them into jail. Also declare high comissioner persona non grata after the meet.

I would say that on the morning of 24th, the morning after the Hurriyat meeting, India must announce that the talks are cancelled.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby CRamS » 21 Aug 2015 18:05

SSJi, quick question. I don't but into this TSP civvies Vs army BS when it comes to India, to the man and woman on the street, all TSPians have a neurotic obsession with Kashmir. Thus, what do you think prompted good Sheriff to sign the Ufa statement that does not mention the "core issue"?

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby CRamS » 21 Aug 2015 18:10

SSridhar wrote:
habal wrote:if pakis have so much visible takleef with meeting NSA, then their comditions must be agreed. Why not ? Let them meet hurrirats and then after paki NSA left throw them into jail. Also declare high comissioner persona non grata after the meet.

I would say that on the morning of 24th, the morning after the Hurriyat meeting, India must announce that the talks are cancelled.


SSJi, if ModiJi can muster that level of gumption, then I will declare that his 56" chest is indeed for real :-). But I doubt he or anybody in India has the b@lls to do that; they are mighty scared of what the "international community" will think, not to mention fear that the Kashmir valley erupting into flames. So most likely, talks will go on, and later on BJP and Cong will go at each other in the usual shameful comical saga. I sincerely hope and pray that such pessimism is unfounded and nationalists will be pleasantly surprised.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby pran » 21 Aug 2015 18:39

SSridhar wrote:
habal wrote:if pakis have so much visible takleef with meeting NSA, then their comditions must be agreed. Why not ? Let them meet hurrirats and then after paki NSA left throw them into jail. Also declare high comissioner persona non grata after the meet.

I would say that on the morning of 24th, the morning after the Hurriyat meeting, India must announce that the talks are cancelled.


And TOI ticker is reporting that it has been cancelled.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby Altair » 21 Aug 2015 18:43

Talks canceled as Pak insists Hurriyat.
Details to follow.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby A_Gupta » 21 Aug 2015 18:52

^^^
http://www.abplive.in/india/2015/08/21/ ... h-Pakistan

External Affairs Ministry spokesman Vikas Swarup said on Friday that India wanted the talks to happen and had conveyed to Pakistan its agenda three days back, response to which was still awaited.

“We want talks to happen. India is ready for talks. We are committed to the talks. Now it is up to them (Pakistan),” he said when asked about the fate of the talks between the NSAs which looks in jeopardy after Pakistan’s invitation to Kashmiri separatist leaders for meeting with its NSA Sartaj Aziz.

“We have made it clear to Pakistan that hosting of Kashmiri separatists will be contrary to the spirit of the Ufa understanding. We have conveyed our position on their reported meeting with them (separatists) and sought clarity on the agenda,” said Swarup who is here in connection with the Summit of Forum for India-Pacific Islands Conference to be attended by 14 nations.

He said India had also communicated to Pakistan the agenda for the NSA talks and was yet to get any response officially. Pakistan had invited Kashmir separatists for a reception and talks with Aziz, setting off a confrontation with India.
...
India has called off NSA-level talks with Pakistan over Pakistan NSA's insistence on meeting separatist leaders of Hurriyat Conference.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby sudhan » 21 Aug 2015 18:55

Sigh. TOI says talks cancelled. Not sure what the GoI has planned for plan B.

The khakis must be sniggering uncontrollably having pushed India's buttons again. Now they will activate all their assets in the MSM world and take potshots at India.

Please.. let there be plan B. Hate to see the Pakis gloat...

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby A_Gupta » 21 Aug 2015 18:59

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, buts words can never harm me".
"He who sniggers last, laughs longest".
It is far better to absorb MSM potshots than to yield an inch to Pakistan.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby uddu » 21 Aug 2015 19:04

From rediff
PTI has withdrawn its alert on India cancelling talks with Pakistani. However, it reports that the deadlock continues in the proposed talks and the dialogue is unlikely. :rotfl:

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby SSridhar » 21 Aug 2015 19:05

CRamS wrote:SSJi, quick question. I don't but into this TSP civvies Vs army BS when it comes to India, to the man and woman on the street, all TSPians have a neurotic obsession with Kashmir. Thus, what do you think prompted good Sheriff to sign the Ufa statement that does not mention the "core issue"?

CRS, I am not going to say anything that we do not already know here. On 'Project India', everybody in Pakistan is on the same page, as you rightly say. Nawaz is especially sensitive after his stock with the Army plummeted nearly two decades back. Recent events of Imran Khan/Tahirul Quadri and their nexus with the ISI etc and the long battle that he had to relentlessly wage with these elements have softened him even further vis-a-vis the Army. He conceded more space to the Army as we all know. The military courts are further manifestation of the loss he suffered. Gen. Raheel Sharif is in charge of Afghanistan, AQIS and is managing the developments on that front. India, from August 14 1947, is in the firm grasp of the Army. The grasp has only tightened further recently as the Afghan situation is moving towards a denouement. The 2016 situation is far more important for Pakistan than that of 1989. The outcome has to be managed much, much more carefully now with several new players on the ground and the situation being far more complex especially with a more powerful and more assertive India than in 1989. Perfidy is the only game that Pakistan plays and its actions have to be always distrusted and analyzed from that angle alone.

I would therefore suggest that if Nawaz Sharif agreed to primarily talk about terrorism, it was a well thought out plan by the Army and the rest of the Establishment. There was pressure on Pakistan to agree to talk, then there was India which said that it would talk only terror. So, Pakistan had to accept talks though it seems to have pleaded and included a reference to 'other issues' as well in the joint statement (like in Simla). It knew it could always queer the pitch with the help of its friends such as the Hurriyat, the DDM in India etc and 'corner' GoI into either accepting talks on its conditions or create a situation where it can blame India for the failure. Except acting as a facade at Ufa, Nawaz's contribution would have been very minimal in this process. Not that he has a different approach towards India as after all he is as jihadi as Hafeez Sayeed; but, the Army took control, as usual. Moreover, with a reputedly short span of attention, no in-depth grasp of things, he cannot handle complexities. In the process, Nawaz also became the fall guy for not having included Kashmir in the Ufa statement etc. The Army is always on top.

Just my 2 cents.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby saip » 21 Aug 2015 19:09

sudhan wrote:Sigh. TOI says talks cancelled. Not sure what the GoI has planned for plan B.

The khakis must be sniggering uncontrollably having pushed India's buttons again. Now they will activate all their assets in the MSM world and take potshots at India.

Please.. let there be plan B. Hate to see the Pakis gloat...


I think plan B was to detain them and take them somewhere when these rats landed in Delhi, that is at the very last minute. But someone jumped the gun.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby CRamS » 21 Aug 2015 19:12

sudhan wrote:Sigh. TOI says talks cancelled. Not sure what the GoI has planned for plan B.

The khakis must be sniggering uncontrollably having pushed India's buttons again. Now they will activate all their assets in the MSM world and take potshots at India.

Please.. let there be plan B. Hate to see the Pakis gloat...


Very short-sighted view IMO. You don't seem to understand TSP game plan. They want "talks" to make solidify their claim over the valley, and at the same time want to enjoy the fruits of closer cooperation with India. In other words, they want India to make all the concessions, essentially a slow motion surrender. And in return, they will calibrate their use of pigLeTs. Make no mistake, this is their gameplan. And which Indian with right mind (and I know many "Indians" like WKKs don't fall in this category) can agree to that. So if the alternative is to suffer world and MSM and Cong potshots, I says it much lesser prices to pay as far as India, BJP, and ModiJi are concerned.

As for plan B, it includes ignoring TSP and strengthening our defenses, and to the extent we can, inflict covert damage on TSP. And shame both "international community" and TSP when they mock us.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby SSridhar » 21 Aug 2015 19:19

A day & evening of fast changing situation. Both sides are playing games as to who will blink first. The US is carefully watching from the sidelines. Very interesting.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby A_Gupta » 21 Aug 2015 19:24

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 245_1.html
India on Friday virtually axed the NSA level talks with Pakistan, saying "unilateral imposition of new conditions and distortion of the agreed agenda cannot be the basis for going forward".

There was no clear announcement that the August 23-24 talks between National Security Advisers Ajit Doval of India and Sartaj Aziz of Pakistan were off but New Delhi clearly made known its displeasure over Islamabad's insistence on holding parleys with Kashmiri separatist leaders.

Soon after the external affairs ministry statement was released, official sources insisted that India had not called off the talks but there was no formal statement to back it up.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby CRamS » 21 Aug 2015 19:30

SSridharJi, as I was discussing above, and many others have, to a large extent India has already blinked by unilaterally agreeing to talks. But by going ahead under the current circumstances, ModiJi will be compounding India's climb down. Better to call off talks, and the be blamed and mocked for blinking, rather than set in motion an irreversible process that will only strengthen TSP henceforth. India's single objective must be that TSP does not gain anything, nada, zilch for its state policy of terror. I mean, to the extent that India is already discussing talks instead of bombing TSP to a parking lot, is a concession of sorts. But any talks that let TSP calibrate its use of pigLeTs is legitimizing their terror policy and it will be a disaster down the road.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby sudhan » 21 Aug 2015 19:32

CRS ji, TSP game plan is to avoid talks, as they feel this equal equal crap wont work anymore. Their game plan is to slow things down so that their langur generals can work something of a strategy out. All interactions with wily bhindia should result in a victory. TSP game plan is always have something at hand to declare victory in front of the home crowd. Now India cancelling the talks is their victory..
I was hoping as some of the posters above had noted, that we physically block the separatists from meeting the old fart.

I'm sure the minds (SJ, AKD) working the security and FO machinery already foresaw this coming. Hence my wish for a speedy plan b.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby A_Gupta » 21 Aug 2015 19:35

Official MEA statement:
http://www.mea.gov.in/media-briefings.h ... evel_talks

Official Spokesperson's response to the statement put out by Pakistan today on the NSA level talks

August 21, 2015

In response to a question on statement put out by Pakistan today on the NSA level talks, the Official Spokesperson stated:

''The statement by the Government of Pakistan today on the NSA level talks with India does not come as a surprise. There has been a pattern to Pakistan's actions after the Ufa Summit and today's position is a culmination of that approach.

At Ufa, the two Prime Ministers agreed on a meeting of the NSAs to discuss all issues connected to terrorism as well as ensure peace and tranquility on the border. Instead, we saw a sharp increase in the unprovoked firings from the Pakistani side and some serious cross border terrorist incidents. The last one, at Udhampur, resulted in the capture alive of a Pakistani national, a matter that would have naturally come up in the NSA level talks on terrorism, to Pakistan's discomfort.

In so far as those talks are concerned, Pakistan took 22 days to respond to the Indian proposal to meet in New Delhi. It then proposed an agenda that was at complete variance with what the two Prime Ministers had agreed upon in Ufa. Together, these two actions indicated its reluctance to go forward with sincerity on the agreed process. Even more significantly, without confirming either the programme or the agenda, the Pakistani High Commissioner invited Hurriyat representatives to consult with the visiting NSA. This provocative action was completely in consonance with Pakistan's desire to evade its commitment at Ufa to engage in a substantive discussion on terrorism.

The Ufa understanding on the talks - read out jointly by the two Foreign Secretaries - was very clear: the NSAs were to meet to discuss all issues connected to terrorism. This was the only agenda set for them by the two Prime Ministers.

The insistence on meeting Hurriyat as a precondition is also a complete departure from the Ufa understanding. India has always held the position that there are only two stake holders in our relationship, not three.

The people of both countries can legitimately ask today what is the force that compels Pakistan to disregard the agreements reached by two elected leaders and sabotage their implementation.

India remains committed to discussing issues with Pakistan peacefully and bilaterally. In fact, we took the initiative to engage at Ufa. But, unilateral imposition of new conditions and distortion of the agreed agenda cannot be the basis for going forward. ''

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby CRamS » 21 Aug 2015 19:38

sudhanJi, I respectfully disagree. India is not powerful enough politically (given the number of ModiJi, BJP, and Hindu haters in India's body politic), diplomatically, economically, and militarily to be able to withstand any aggressive move. Even something as benignly aggressive as arresting Harried rats when they arrive in Delhi or calling off talks once the old fart lands in Delhi. Also remember, by arresting the rats, TSP could up the ante in the valley through its proxies, and that will for sure de-stabilize PDP or make the BJP PDP fissures untenable. Best option is what I and many other highlight above.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby Dipanker » 21 Aug 2015 19:40

SSridhar wrote:
Dipanker wrote:Not stopping Bollywood in Pakistan but denying visa to Paki who are currently working in Bollywood, stating that such interactions are not possible in the hostile environment created by Pakistan, such interactions are only possible if Pakistan maintains peace.

The trouble there is that Bollywood would rise in revolt en masse as their income will be affected if films are not screened there, which Pakistan would certainly resort to. Secular & Liberal Indian newspapers would blow their heads off as will 'eminent people' who will send a petition to the President. With friends like these who are willing to thwart every move, we don't need a Pakistan.


They can have their input but we can't let them dictate our foreign policy and certainly not for the price of $15 mil or so ( ??) they may be earning from Pakistan.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby sudhan » 21 Aug 2015 19:45

I understand your point, CRS ji. Let's wait and watch how this pans out.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby Dipanker » 21 Aug 2015 19:51

Here is a plan B: Ignore Pakis...
And Plan C: Ignore Pakis...
And Plan D: Ignore Pakis...

You get the drift. Now for any provocation at LOC we pound them hard, and for any act of terrorism in border region, we pound them on LOC till we have killed enough Paki in uniform.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby A_Gupta » 21 Aug 2015 19:52

However, even if the talks are called off, Sartaj Aziz, NSA of Pakistan would visit India on a diplomatic visa and hold talks with the separatists only to send across a message to India.

Read more at: http://www.oneindia.com/india/nsa-level ... 45666.html

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Postby Falijee » 21 Aug 2015 19:56

U.A.E Pro - India Tilt Worries Pakistan :mrgreen:

Former Foreign Minister Blames Ganja For Ineptness :D


LAHORE – A recent defence agreement between the United Arab Emirates (UAE) and India has arisen many questions regarding foreign policy of Pakistan as the proximity of the two is result of a ‘poor handling’ of affairs by the Foreign Office if not a complete failure vis-a-viz Arab world.


The biggest achievement for prime Minister Modi is that the UAE announced support for India’s permanent berth in the UN Security Council. :D Indian investment in UAE and defence pact between the two is an added advantage. Former Foreign Affairs minister Khurshid Mahmud Kasuri is of the view that Pakistan had failed in dealing with the Saudi-Yemen issue in a proper way. :roll: “Saudi Arabia is a tried and tested friend of Pakistan and always supported it at all level and all forums,” he said.


But the Foreign Office dealt the matter in a poor manner, Kasuri said. He was of the view that Pakistan is lacking a full time foreign affairs minister as the office is being held with the worthy :?: prime minister himself who always has other engagements.[*]


[*] Like hosting a Lavish Wedding Gala in the birthplace of the Ummah and requisitioning the Paki National Airline to ferry the guests from as far away as New Yark at public expense !


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