Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10, 2015

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by SSridhar »

India raises Pakistani support for terrorism in the meeting of India-Australia joint working group on counter-terrorism.

Link
During the counter-terror talks with Australia, India is said to have raised Pakistan's continuing terror activities against India and its failure to dismantle the terror infrastructure on its soil. Senior officials of the ministry of external affairs are said to have shared how terror outfits active in the Af-Pak region were now taking up legitimate business such as leather goods exports, travel agencies, flour mills etc, to camouflage their operations and funding. ISI is controlling most of the terror outfits, particularly LeT.

The joint working group also discussed international presence of Sikh radical groups, particularly their attempts to "take over" gurudwaras in US, UK, Germany and Canada, all having a notable Sikh diaspora. India is said to have raised the emerging nexus between radical Sikh outfits and jihadi groups.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by SSridhar »

Breaking news: Ceasefire violation in RS Pura sector. One civilian dead & 7 injured.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by partha »

Falijee wrote:'Ganja' Sharif Unleashes Secret Weapon Against Imran Khan :mrgreen:

'See you in battlefield', challenges Maryam Nawaz
hehe..what for RAPEs take these elections seriously when everyone knows real power lies with GHQ? RAPEs just want to pretend that they are like any other democracy especially India. "Look ma, we also have elections, democracy".

And jernails and kernails be like

Image
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by Guddu »

The pakis will keep provoking until we give "befitting reply". So my question is, why are we waiting ?
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by Anujan »

http://m.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/com ... 587371.ece

Read the full article there. Excerpts:

When Hamid Gul offered India peace
In early 1988, Pakistan President, Gen. Zia-ul-Haq, expressed concern that the Pakistan Army, by consuming almost 48 per cent of the nation’s budget, was unfairly depriving citizens of funds which could raise their standards of living. He was particularly concerned about the expenditure on the operations in Siachen and was convinced that an agreement with India was possible to cut down on these expenses.

Gen. Zia was anxious for a meeting between the Intelligence Chiefs of the two countries to explore possibilities and approached the then Crown Prince Hassan of Jordan to speak to the Indian Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi and facilitate a move forward.

The final agreement between the two Intelligence Chiefs envisaged: a) withdrawal of the Pakistani forces to the west to the ground level of the Saltoro mountains; b) giving up of Pakistani claims to territory from NJ9842 to the Karakoram pass; c) the Line of Control to run North from NJ9842 along the western ground level of Saltoro exactly North till the Chinese border; and d) reduction of Pakistani troop strength by two divisions with some corresponding adjustments on the Indian side.


Gen. Zia’s was a major effort to break out of the psyche prevailing in Pakistan at the time but apparently his Corps Commanders had not realised the extent of compromise he would be ready to make to start a new beginning with India. Once they were informed about the exact terms, they became uneasy and wanted to stop the progress of these developments at any cost.

Could it be reasonable to speculate that Gen. Zia’s death in the air crash was actually a planned assassination, planned at the highest levels of the military hierarchy by those who were opposed to a policy of reconciliation with India?
If you look at it, Military rule in Pakistan is actually very good for India. India should give up this "sacrifices to support democracy in Al Bakistan" bullsh1t.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by Anujan »

Image

I dont know why Indians make such demeaning and factually incorrect pictures about Pakistan like this. The Pakistan I know isnt like this at all. Most kids in Pakistan are not in school and are learning terrorism at home.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by Kashi »

Anujan wrote:I dont know why Indians make such demeaning and factually incorrect pictures about Pakistan like this. The Pakistan I know isnt like this at all. Most kids in Pakistan are not in school and are learning terrorism at home.
:rotfl: :rotfl:

If I were not so "doodlely" challenged, maybe I could have given a go to that. Hope one of the more imaginative members will do the honours...
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by shiv »

Anujan wrote:http://m.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/com ... 587371.ece

Read the full article there. Excerpts:

When Hamid Gul offered India peace
The problem I have with this article is that the peace overture was only because Pakistan was suffering and was surely a Hudaibya like the Poobah did to temporarily make kafirs feel they are safe until the peacemakers could gain strength and then crush the balls of the very people who were good to them. We would have pulled out of Siachen and the Pakis would have reoccupied it in a trice.

Coming from the Hindu - you can imagine that the article cannot be anything other than sympathetic to Pakistan
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by Gagan »

How nice of them to have tried to keep the Siachen Glacier for themselves, by saying that the LOC should be EXACTLY north of NJ9842?
The way reality is, the actual ground position line that India occupies curves very sharply westwards after NJ9842, and runs along the southern edge of the Saltoro range.
The poor Pakistani Army is on the lower foothills of the saltoro range. I doubt they can actually see the actual siachen glacier from down below, specially with the IA looking at them from above the saltoro mountains.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by SSridhar »

shiv wrote:Coming from the Hindu - you can imagine that the article cannot be anything other than sympathetic to Pakistan
More disturbingly, it was written by A.K.Verma, Secretary, R&AW !

He even suggests in the article that Gul could have assumed the facade of a jihadi Islamist just to escape the backlash for his efforts in Siachen ! Astonishing.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by symontk »

Even if what he says is true, he hasn't explained what transformed Gul later? One can surmise that it is the the Taliban. In that case, what are the transforms happening to the current crop of Pak Generals in the era of IS sunrise, one shudder to think
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by SSridhar »

Getting the talk atmospherics right - M.KNarayanan, The Hindu
In the meeting in Ufa, Russia, between the Indian and Pakistani Prime Ministers, Narendra Modi and Nawaz Sharif, held on the sidelines of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation conclave in July 2015, the leaders agreed to, among other things, talks being held in New Delhi between the National Security Advisers (NSA) of India and Pakistan, which was “billed” as the most important takeaway. However, no one in India — possibly no one in Pakistan as well — should mourn the demise of talks that were not held in the end. Strident rhetoric emanating from both capitals, which was further embellished by the media in both countries, had threatened to convert the talks into a “theatre of the absurd”. Hence, it was almost providential that Pakistan called off the talks.

Talks between India and Pakistan suffer from certain inbuilt defects. India, far more than Pakistan, has always been keen to engage in direct talks with the latter. Pakistan prefers instead to talk to the rest of the world, if only to accuse India of perfidy, especially when it comes to Kashmir.

Pressures and outcomes

India’s desire to periodically up the ante for talks stems from a combination of international and domestic pressures to which India succumbs from time to time. Much of the international pressure comes from lobbies in the West, including the United States. The domestic peace offensive tends to be equally persuasive in pushing the envelope regarding holding talks. Pakistan has far fewer stakes, or for that matter qualms, about the outcomes where talks are concerned. Hence, it has far greater latitude in this regard, including of sabotaging talks if and when they are held. Pakistan’s real problem is that it is the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) and the Army that determine when to talk, and even on how to marshal arguments, often with little regard to the truth.

Of late, there has also been an unfortunate trend of the Prime Ministers of India and Pakistan holding bilateral meetings on the sidelines of global meets or events — whether they relate to issues that are of economic and strategic importance or on any other aspect. This is accompanied by pressures for significant outcomes, irrespective of whether the times are propitious for such talks or the regional and geo-political situation lends itself to holding such talks. Preparations tend to be a casualty in these circumstances and, inevitably, such meetings result in less than favourable outcomes. Prime Ministerial meetings in recent years — Lahore (1999), Agra (2001) and Islamabad (2004), during Atal Bihari Vajpayee’s time; Havana (2006) and Sharm el-Sheikh (2009), during Dr. Manmohan Singh’s time; and now Ufa (Narendra Modi), are best remembered for what they failed to achieve than for their results.

The reasons are fairly obvious. Operating under the glare of international observers and the world media, pressures are generated to come up with path-breaking initiatives. These result in ignoring reality and real concerns which can only be circumvented through careful and detailed groundwork, including preparation of position papers and the like. Without this, possibilities of forward movement are indeed limited and more likely doomed. Nevertheless, attempts do, and will continue. Intrinsic to this is an element of grandstanding that leaders indulge in — an essential concomitant of summit-level diplomacy.

With the announcement of the NSA-level talks, without due preparations being made, it might have been anticipated that it contained the seeds of its own failure. Furthermore, statements and agreements reached between the heads of government require careful vetting so as to leave no scope for differing interpretations, as has arisen in the present instance. This is especially important when the Prime Ministers of India and Pakistan meet since only a very small window of opportunity exists.

The timing of the initiative was again rather unfortunate. By its constant shelling across the Line of Control, Pakistan had already demonstrated that it was in no mood for talks. Subsequent to the announcement of NSA-level talks came the terror attacks in India — in Gurdaspur (July 2015) and Udhampur (August 2015) — which only seemed to reinforce Pakistan’s intentions. The Pakistani High Commissioner’s “high jinks” later, and the Pakistan NSA Sartaj Aziz’s insistence on holding talks with the Hurriyat prior to the NSA-level talks, further confirmed Pakistan’s disinclination for holding talks.

Terror strikes and Kashmir

Hence, India, as the prime mover of the talks, should have taken particular care to deny Pakistan an opportunity or excuse to derail the talks. The very fact that Pakistan agreed to “talk about terror” at the NSA level, which would have given India an opportunity to put on the table factual details of Pakistan’s failure to deal with terrorists on its soil — including not taking action against those responsible for the 26/11 Mumbai terror attack, such as its mastermind Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi — should have alerted India about Pakistan’s possible perfidy.

Presuming that India wanted the NSA-level talks to succeed, then India’s logic of trading charges even before the talks were held — which was carried out through the medium of “leaks” from voluminous dossiers prepared by India to confront Pakistan — was a flawed one. It was also clearly futile to try and pit India’s carefully prepared documents against Pakistan’s “tissue of lies”, as there could be no winners. Rather than confront Pakistan with these facts, India would have done well to put forward ideas and concepts that would try and help narrow the differences and keep the door open for another round of talks at a more propitious moment.

Again, India must have been extremely naive to believe that there could be an India-Pakistan dialogue without Pakistan making Kashmir its centerpiece, even if it did not form part of the Ufa agreement, as stated by the Union Minister of External Affairs and Overseas Indian Affairs, Sushma Swaraj. The “K” word is a part of Pakistan’s DNA, and anyone who has dealt with that country over the past half a century, would know that Kashmir is always the “400 pound gorilla” in the meeting room. India should have anticipated this and resorted to some flanking moves of its own to ensure that the talks did not get derailed. This smacks of a “suspension of belief” about the nature and record of the Pakistani state, and a case of gross amnesia on India’s part.

India had more to lose by the talks not being held. In the short term, Pakistan has obtained a fair idea of how much India knew about developments in Pakistan, including the whereabouts of India’s No.1 fugitive, Dawood Ibrahim. India’s hope that the talks would pave the way for a conducive climate in which some of the critical aspects of terror could be addressed, has, meanwhile, proved to be a non-starter. It has left Pakistan laughing all the way to the Arabian Sea. The more serious casualty is the setback to any such future problem-solving approach. In all this, India seemed to come out second best.

Gains for the ‘sword-arms’

There are several other negative fallouts as well from the aborted NSA-level talks. Both factions of the Hurriyat — Pakistan’s acknowledged “fifth column” — have gained a degree of prominence when their fortunes were almost at their nadir. This constitutes a setback to India’s efforts over the years to marginalise them. It will give Hurriyat supporters fresh grist to indulge in violent demonstrations in places like Srinagar and Baramulla. The recent spurt in Islamist radicalisation in the Valley is also likely to get a fillip and become infused with new vigour.

Pakistan-based terrorist organisations like the Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) can also be expected to exploit the so-called breakdown in relations, and India should brace itself to confront a fresh wave of terror attacks. As it is, the graph of militancy in Jammu and Kashmir has been going up of late, and the latest events should aggravate matters. The LeT, being the recognised “sword-arm” of the ISI and the Pakistani state, will be the main gainer.

Meanwhile, there are several lessons to be learnt from the latest “mishap”. Negotiations with Pakistan, especially at senior levels, clearly demand more careful thought and planning. Talks should not be launched on the basis of pressure exerted by those on the periphery, and from those who constantly “applaud” India’s determination to “talk on terror” despite Pakistan’s belligerence. Detailed planning for the success of any such talks should include measures to minimise the fallout if talks fail. Every opportunity should be provided, if talks fail, to revive or restart them at an appropriate time. Most important, talks at this level need to be held when the regional and geo-political situation is suitable for negotiations, and Pakistan demonstrates some inclination to resort to negotiations, rather than engage in provocations.

(M.K. Narayanan is a former National Security Adviser and former Governor of West Bengal.)
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by johneeG »

"I said India not able to agree to that now and Bhutto responded, 'Then let them destroy Pakistan!'"
Link
johneeG wrote: I think a much more basic pisko point from a Pakistani perspective is:
Is my God right or yours?
- If my God is right, then I'll win. And you will have to accept that my God is right.
- If your God is right, then I'll lose. And I will have to accept that your God is right.
- Both your God and my God can't be right at the same time. Either yours or mine.
- So, lets fight it out and see who is right and who is wrong.

Most Bhaarathiyas approach this question in the following manner:
- All Gods are same same. All human beings are same same. All religions are same same.
- Even if there are some differences, they can be reconciled.
- There is no need to fight on this issue.
In this context, what is the ultimate defeat from a pakistani perspective? When Bhutto says 'destroy pakistan' what does he mean?
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by RamSuresh »

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 705413.cms

From TOI - Three Indians killed in Pak firing


http://www.dawn.com/news/1203398/at-lea ... ng-sources

From Dawn - Seven Pakistanis killed in Indian firing
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by shiv »

SSridhar wrote:Getting the talk atmospherics right - M.KNarayanan, The Hindu
Operating under the glare of international observers and the world media, pressures are generated to come up with path-breaking initiatives. These result in ignoring reality and real concerns which can only be circumvented through careful and detailed groundwork, including preparation of position papers and the like. Without this, possibilities of forward movement are indeed limited and more likely doomed. Nevertheless, attempts do, and will continue. Intrinsic to this is an element of grandstanding that leaders indulge in — an essential concomitant of summit-level diplomacy.
Unadulterated Becturbation
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by Kashi »

RamSuresh wrote:http://www.dawn.com/news/1203398/at-lea ... ng-sources

From Dawn - Seven Pakistanis killed in Indian firing
The Dawn report is more recent..says updated 4 minutes ago. So BSF is giving it back to them.

Yet they seem to persist in shelling.

Reminds me of the Om Puri dialogue in Lakshya, "Pakistani haare to ek baar palat ke phir aata hai..."
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by RamSuresh »

They will persist with shelling till Indian public opinion forces India to stop. Loss of life on their side means nothing to them.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by member_28860 »

johneeG wrote:
In this context, what is the ultimate defeat from a pakistani perspective? When Bhutto says 'destroy pakistan' what does he mean?
My 2C: Exactly, what the good Brigadier suggested in the article below, "archived" in BRF, that there is no future for Pakistan, and Bhutto knew that instinctively. So, India might as well take them to the gates of Jannat. After all, no Pakistani would ever admit to their public by saying "Sorry, we created a mess by creating Pakistan". So, they may as well attain Shahadat and enjoy all the houris.

https://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/i ... desman.htm
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by JE Menon »

SSridhar wrote:Getting the talk atmospherics right - M.KNarayanan, The Hindu
First class rubbish. After a certain age, people should simply gracefully withdraw and keep quiet - offering only verbal advise when asked.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by Vikas »

I wonder what is Paki objective in shelling across the border incessantly since NM came to power other than giving cover to Terrorists. This action itself is losing news worthiness since it is happening so frequently.
On top, it puts pressure on GoI to raise the theater of shelling to higher level leaving Pakis face the wrath of BSF.
------------------------------------------------------
Looking at Pakistan of today, I don't think it is going away anywhere in next 15-20 years. Unless India takes some drastic steps, we will have a limping (and sometimes Lucky) Pakistan getting aid from usual suspects and surviving on doles and shooting at India.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by Vikas »

JE Menon wrote:
SSridhar wrote:Getting the talk atmospherics right - M.KNarayanan, The Hindu
First class rubbish. After a certain age, people should simply gracefully withdraw and keep quiet - offering only verbal advise when asked.
JeM ji, How will these people show that they are still valuable if not for this written loose motions.

Why is there so much belief in our IFS/IAS types that somehow Pakis will behave normally once we grovel and treat them like normal neighbors. As if exchanging dossiers would make Pakistan tremble and hand our Suar Hafiz to India or if capturing couple of Paki terrorist in Kashmir makes any difference to anyones Musharraf in Al-Terroristan.

Can't believe that this gentleman was our NSA few years back.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by uddu »

Pakistan terrorist Sajjad begged for mercy after army used ‘chilly grenades’ to flush them out

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... jad-ahmed/

He panicked and begged for mercy after army commandos fired ‘chilly grenades’ and teargas shells into a cave to flush out the terrorists who were holed up there since last night. :lol:

A cordon was laid and one of the militant was killed yesterday in an encounter. However, there was no whereabouts of the remaining terrorists, the officials said.

When the operation was being called off, a reluctant Army Major insisted that the terrorists were still on the Indian territory and a crack team of various units was formed for a search operation.

During the operation, a natural cave was found on the heights in Rafiabad, they said. When the forces approached it, they were fired upon and in the ensuing encounter, three Lashker militants were killed.

Apprehending that there could be some more terrorists inside the cave, the troops then fired several rounds of tear gas shells and ‘chilly grenades’ inside to flush them out.

After sometime, troops entered the cave and found Sajjad weeping bitterly — one because of panic and secondly because of the effect of chilly grenades. :rotfl:

He was immediately arrested and sent to Joint Interrogation Centre in Srinagar for thorough questioning.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by JE Menon »

VR,

Trouble is this is not atypical. People don't always go gracefully into the good night. B. Raman was another example. It is a normal experience in our own daily lives. They are, however, our elders and we must respect them - even if we don't necessarily listen to their exhortations. We know this in our own daily lives, sometimes with our own fathers. That has been our way.

Now, MKN is vilified on this forum regularly by people not fully aware of his background - and it is extremely wide and deep in our security apparatus. A thorough search on Google will help to give an outline. Suffice it to say he was on occasion single-handedly (against the teeth of Congress opposition) responsible for holding certain American attempts at imposition at bay. On the other hand, he was aligned to the Congress because that was the only way one could function for decades. It was either stay in the system and try to keep things under a certain degree of objective control, or get kicked out, sideways or down. This was a choice virtually every bureaucrat had to make, and very few meaningfully positioned IAS/IFS/IPS type could afford to be a pure bureaucrat. We need to have some sympathy for that reality. It is easy for us to sit elsewhere and comment with a bitter sagacity about how things should have been, without having to actually having had to sell it to a politician (who operates by his/her own not fully autonomous compulsions).

On the other hand, that does not mean that every word MKN speaks is dripping with wisdom. He has written crap in the above piece (if he himself wrote or dictated it), and it must be called out as absolute shite. It is not worthy of his intelligence or experience, or for that matter his legacy.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by habal »

When you are serving the govt, you do not reason with your enemies. After retirement this is possible and therr is also mixed emotions about what they have done while in service.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by Anujan »

From Swapan. I have excerpted it below, you should read the whole thing.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150828/j ... d_-vSgVhBd
The fond hope of the former prime minister, Manmohan Singh, of breakfast in Amritsar and lunch in Lahore was essentially a generational response of someone personally affected by Partition; it was a vision that, despite its nobility of purpose, failed to excite the popular imagination in either country.

Broadly speaking, the attacks on the Modi government followed two streams. First, it was suggested that the Indian prime minister lacked any understanding or appreciation of the rules of diplomacy and was inclined to treat the IndPak game as an extension of confrontational domestic politics. The legacy of P.V. Narasimha Rao and Atal Bihari Vajpayee was invoked to indicate alternative paths that Modi chose to not take. Secondly, it was argued that unlike his predecessors, Modi reposed very little faith in the professional diplomats who are meant to conduct foreign policy. Instead, Modi was blamed for being intellectually over-dependant on the inputs of the NSA, Doval, who, in turn, was decried for being a flat-footed policeman untutored in the ways of international diplomacy.

However, at the heart of this divergence of views are two larger issues. First, the Ufa agreement was partially premised on the over-optimistic belief that India must do its bit in strengthening the hands of the civilian government vis-à-vis the military establishment. Secondly, the IndPak stakeholders proceed on the assumption that their business is to untangle a bilateral mess between two normal countries that have a shared love of cricket. Unfortunately, it could be a folly to regard Pakistan as 'normal'. From its theft of nuclear technology and its role in generating counterfeit currency to its encouragement and export of terror, Pakistan has violated every rule in the book. On top of that, as Vajpayee discovered in 1999, it has a strong perfidious streak. There can be no question of any asymmetric relationship with it {No "large hearted big brother" business}; it has to be judged with exceptional stringency {A slap for every violation instead of bigger country showing more "understanding"}. This may be what distinguishes the Doval approach from the earlier government's endeavour to bring Pakistan to normal existence. Accepting as 'normal' its right to engage with players inside Jammu and Kashmir carried with it a corresponding danger of conceding to it a right in the internal affairs of India.

The real test will lie in India's ability to persist with its new approach without either blinking or succumbing to pressure. In the coming months, Pakistan will redouble both military and diplomatic pressure to restore the linkages between terror and 'self-determination' for Jammu and Kashmir. By resisting this, India will have to be prepared for prolonged non-engagement. The combination of deterrence and 'benign neglect' may suit India but it will put the IndPak industry out of business for a long time to come. That, maybe, is the sustained internal pressure that the government will have to withstand. Hell hath no fury like experts spurned!
Brilliantly written and captures much of what has been discussed here. The basic issue is this, we can argue all that we want whether fullstops and commas were placed in the right place in the Ufa declaration. The reality is that Pakistan will continue to train Jihadis and will continue to sponsor terror. No carefully worded agreement is going to change that. This is not a speculation: Pakis did it during Kargil and again in Mumbai and dozens of times in between. Swapan also captures what the basic takleef is Hell hath no fury like experts spurned. The so called experts, MKN included are convinced that their approach is right and rational. What they miss is that Pakistan is not normal. And when they tried the right and rational approach, it never worked.

Read the article. It is the last word on the whole NSA meeting tamasha.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by K Mehta »

X-posting from pest watch thread

IMF probing the musharraf of paki government as the source of deficit numbers.
ISLAMABAD: In a move carrying far-reaching implications for a $6.2 billion bailout package, the International Monetary Fund is investigating Pakistan’s claim of restricting the federal budget deficit to 5.3% of the total size of the national economy or Rs1.45 trillion in fiscal year 2015.

The IMF’s resident mission decided to reopen the books after several independent experts publicly questioned the authenticity of the figure, claiming the deficit was Rs1.8 trillion when including the circular debt.

In an op-ed piece appearing in a local daily, former State Bank governor Shahid Kardar stated that despite Pakistan’s failure to meet two key performance benchmarks of the programme, the IMF took a lenient view and granted waivers. He said that in less than two years, the IMF gave 12 waivers to Islamabad, the largest number of waivers under any IMF programme.


He argued that the government was practicing an “unashamed manipulation of data” to show a lower budget deficit, an act in which the IMF was complicit.

former finance minister Hafiz Pasha expressed similar views, saying, “In our close to 70 years’ history, we’ve never had a government that fudged statistics to the extent of this one.” He said the actual 2015 budget deficit including circular debt was closer to 8.5% of GDP, not the 5.3% the government claimed.

during the IMF’s earlier analysis, it had treated the $1 billion raised through the secondary market offering of the government’s shares in Habib Bank as revenue, even though the 2000 Privatisation Ordinance requires such proceeds to be treated as financing, not revenue. In addition, the IMF excluded the $1 billion Islamic Eurobond issued by the government from its external financing.

A meeting of the Executive Board of the IMF is tentatively scheduled for early next month to allow the disbursement of next loan tranche of $500 million. If 5.3% figure turns out to be incorrect, the country may face problems in getting further loans from the IMF, the World Bank and the Asian Development Bank.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by Kashi »

JE Menon wrote:First class rubbish. After a certain age, people should simply gracefully withdraw and keep quiet - offering only verbal advise when asked.
Edited...Inappropriate content.

P.S. Apologies for that..
Last edited by Kashi on 28 Aug 2015 14:39, edited 1 time in total.
member_22733
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by member_22733 »

^^^^ LOL. Too low... but too funny.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by Singha »

http://www.ibnlive.com/news/india/pakis ... 53535.html

there is a report here by stimston instt that TSP is eating grass but producing as much plutonium as they can to build a large n-weapons stockpile.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by chetak »

Singha wrote:http://www.ibnlive.com/news/india/pakis ... 53535.html

there is a report here by stimston instt that TSP is eating grass but producing as much plutonium as they can to build a large n-weapons stockpile.
after the saudi + gulf armed assistance request paki fiasco, could they be opening a nuke supermarket for off the shelf sales??
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by A_Gupta »

On the Pakistani side, the secret operation, as it moved forward, was known only to the Pakistani High Commissioner, Niaz Naik. Sometime later, he also died in mysterious circumstances.
Niaz Naik is an unlucky name to have in Pakistan.
e.g., this story from 2009:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 871869.cms
Former Pakistan foreign secretary Niaz A Naik, who was involved in back-channel diplomacy with India during the 1999 Kargil conflict, has been tortured and murdered by unidentified persons at his residence here, police said on Saturday....
.......
Naik, who also served as high commissioner to India and was involved in back-channel diplomacy during the Kargil conflict of 1999, apparently died three to four days ago, police said. Police officials said they were trying to ascertain the motive behind the murder.
But I am convinced that the Niaz Naik who died in 2009 was the Pakistani High Commissioner in India during Zia's time. e.g., this article from 2009:

e.g., http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDe ... t=9/7/2009
Our working relationship started in Islamabad in 1992. Mr Naik was hosting a seminar on India-Pakistan relations at which Mr I K Gujral, then a former foreign minister (and later to become prime minister) was the leader of the Indian delegation. The Kashmir issue was on the boil. Both governments were of the opinion that an independent Track-II process would be useful.



Mr Naik had only recently helped launch the Neemrana Initiative and graciously invited me to join the Pakistani group which comprised 10 persons. The Neemrana Initiative represents a quiet, confidential dialogue held about once every six months, alternatively in Pakistan and India, between a group of Pakistanis and a group of Indians comprising persons of diverse backgrounds from civil society and the military, including some with experience of public office, all of them sharing an interest in improving bilateral relations. A veteran former US diplomat and scholar, Paul Kreisberg, was the convenor in the initial rounds. Later, after Mr Kreisberg left the process, the two sides nominated the respective co-convenors. Mr Naik represented Pakistan, while India was led by Mr A M Khusro, a former ambassador and vice chancellor of Aligarh University, who passed away three years ago. His place was taken by former Indian foreign secretary M Rasgotra, while recently, after the passing away of Mr Naik, the co-convenor of the Pakistan group is Mr Inam-ul-Haq, former foreign minister and foreign secretary.
In the crash that Zia died, per the New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/08/22/world ... ckage.html
The United States Ambassador to Pakistan, Arnold L. Raphel, and his chief military attache, Brig. Gen. Herbert Wassom, also died in the crash, along with most of the Government's highest-ranking military officers.
This is Barbara Crossette's last interview with Rajiv Gandhi:
Asked about how he thought he would get along with Pakistan's new Prime Minister, Nawaz Sharif, who is pushing through economic liberalization policies that Indian politicians including the Congress Party talk about but never put into practice, Mr. Gandhi said he had never met Mr. Sharif and could not judge what kind of relationship they would have.

"But I know who could have solved these problems with us," he said. "General Zia. We were close to finishing agreement on Kashmir, we had the maps and everything ready to sign. And then he was killed." As Prime Minister from 1984 to 1989, Mr. Gandhi had a good working relationship with President Mohammed Zia ul-Haq, who died in an unexplained plane crash in August 1988. Assassination Suspected

Mr. Gandhi said there was evidence that General Zia had been murdered, but he wouldn't say more. Mrs. Gopal asked him if he didn't think that some outside power had decided to upset the development of better relations with Pakistan. He said he thought that was likely. She asked whether India and Indian leaders might not be targets as India took on a larger role in the region. He agreed. He said that the danger would not come from the Soviet Union, however, which was too busy with its own problems.

"Are you talking about the C.I.A. again?" I asked him. Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, his mother, used to say that she feared the American intelligence agency would kill her one day, an apprehension dismissed as paranoia by all but some Soviet diplomats in New Delhi.

Mr. Gandhi smirked.
( http://www.nytimes.com/1991/05/22/world ... gewanted=2 )

Anyway, the who killed Zia - many people had a motive. The following from 2012:
http://tribune.com.pk/story/476508/who- ... neral-zia/
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by A_Gupta »

Also, no one is going to tell the other party in the negotiations, "I want to cut my defense budget, I need a deal". If Zia died before the deal was signed, how did the Indian side get to know his motivation?
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by Singha »

chetak wrote:
Singha wrote:http://www.ibnlive.com/news/india/pakis ... 53535.html

there is a report here by stimston instt that TSP is eating grass but producing as much plutonium as they can to build a large n-weapons stockpile.
after the saudi + gulf armed assistance request paki fiasco, could they be opening a nuke supermarket for off the shelf sales??
either way its none of our problem if the pakis stockpile 5000 ready weapons. we are joined at the hip and are screwed anyway where its 20 or 200 or 2000.

its for the west to worry where these weapons could be leaked or sold :lol: the moment a x-national org gets such weapons they will make a beeline for western capitals, not india, which is a dung heap in comparison and always available to be nuked....so sire the flame and prestige of going after a western capital will be too much to resist.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by A_Gupta »

Pakistan's economy during Zia-ul-Haq: http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/r ... kistan.htm
From the beginning of his rule to his death, Pakistan's defense expenditure had grown from 5.4% of GDP to 7% of GDP. But the Pakistan economy had grown at an average of 7% per annum.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by A_Gupta »

Former Foreign Secy. Romesh Bhandari: (2001)
http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/jul/16spec.htm
Rajiv said he and Zia had come to some agreement over Kashmir. It could have solved the issue, but unfortunately Zia died in the 1988 plane crash and the hope of an Indo-Pak agreement got crushed. That solution was to keep talking on the border issue. In the meantime we would go ahead with our economical and cultural discussions, almost freezing the Kashmir issue and allowing a better life to Kashmiris.
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by A_Gupta »

A.K. Verma wrote pretty much the same narrative in 2006, in rediff.com, except that Hamid Gul and Niaz Naik were left out.
http://www.rediff.com/news/2006/jun/30akv.htm

PS: I guess because neither Gul nor Naik were dead then?
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by kish »

K Mehta wrote:X-posting from pest watch thread

IMF probing the musharraf of paki government as the source of deficit numbers.

former finance minister Hafiz Pasha expressed similar views, saying, “In our close to 70 years’ history, we’ve never had a government that fudged statistics to the extent of this one.” :mrgreen: He said the actual 2015 budget deficit including circular debt was closer to 8.5% of GDP, not the 5.3% the government claimed.
Must be such a perverse lie. It brought out previous liar like Hafiz Pasha to come out and say we have never lied this much in our 70 years of lying history.

British & most of the western world thought pakisatan would become a muslim majority secular country, but what it became is a "parody account" of what was envisaged by the West. :mrgreen:
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by SSridhar »

US cautions Pakistan over brandishing of nuclear status - PTI
With Pakistan brandishing its nuclear status in the wake of cancellation of Indo-Pak talks, the US has cautioned that such statements would not help reduce tensions between the two countries.

The US also asked India and Pakistan to resolve their long-standing issues through constructive dialogue.

"(US) secretary (of state, John) Kerry has said repeatedly that he wants the two nations to continue to work together, with constructive dialogue, to resolve their issues, and we understand that there are issues that are longstanding," state department spokesman John Kirby told reporters at his daily news conference on Thursday.

"But that's what really needs to happen, is sitting down, dialogue, cooperation, talking through these things, and trying to work through some meaningful solutions," Kirby said in response to a question.

Asked about statements coming from Pakistan that it was a nuclear-armed country, Kirby said, "What we want to see are the tensions decrease, and speculation about the potential use of nuclear weapons certainly isn't doing anything to help decrease tensions, if in fact those comments were made."
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by Anujan »

Remember the chap -- Pakistan's ambassador to UK -- who said mumbai attack was probably planned in a ship in international waters so nobody is responsible for it? The fella Waji Shamshul Hassan? Well he might be Waji Bull Cutlet soon.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/946497/punj ... n-ahmadis/

Punjab Assembly adopts resolution against ex-envoy’s comments on Ahmadis
The resolution condemned the former envoy’s comments in which he stated that former Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto’s decision to declare Ahmadis non-Muslims was wrong.

Stressing that the remarks hurt the sentiments of Muslims, the resolution called upon the federal government to initiate legal action against Hasan for making a statement in opposition to the decision that was taken by the National Assembly in the past.
Mian Aslam Iqbal said that Hasan should be stripped off all government titles and awards. Pakistan People’s Party parliamentary leader Qazi Ahmad Saeed proposed that an FIR be lodged against Hasan. He urged the government to take strict action against the former high commissioner.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-July 10,

Post by saip »

Headlines from the past from the EVIL side!

Pakistan launches Operation Gibraltar, Kashmir announces Liberation War

Link

Interesting read. By this it looks like Pakistan has won the war and 'liberated' Kashmir!
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