Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attack

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Harpal Bector » 30 Jul 2015 20:18

Bhaiyon - I am not selling anything - I will cut back on the style along with the grandmother's stories.

If you want me to leave just tell me - you don't have to bother any mods.

Given the spread of Jihadism, it may be these people are not from Pakistan but they are from some other part of the world. Even if the border with Pakistan is sealed, it is not possible to seal rest of India. So the AIOS style of doing things may not work in the future.

The SG(F) should (at least in theory) be able to reduce the likely casualty rate in capture operations so that loss of life during the Kasab capture is avoided. Kasab's capture was a fluke. SG(F) should make it more predictable affair.

Is the high risk profile of such missions worth the gain? - leaving aside the obvious questions about how exactly the information will be leveraged vis-a-vis Pakistan.

@Ramana

Thanks for the caution.

I don't think this is mere tactical shift - I think they have something higher level in place. Something new is there.

The rationale behind the SG(F) is that there was an order from Delhi to take one alive. It could not be implemented for reasons that are not yet clear. The problems of 26/11 didn't present this time around, central forces reached the site pretty quickly so if a special recovery team existed, then it could be deployed fast enough to achieve the capture.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 30 Jul 2015 20:20

Ramana,

there is no difference between TPSA regulars and terrorists (India focused one HM, Let, HAU etc) any more. Has not been for a while. I think they should just raise a new regt and call it Jehadi Regt. High time our media and public at large get this.
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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 30 Jul 2015 20:22

Harpal Bector wrote:
Given the spread of Jihadism, it may be these people are not from Pakistan but they are from some other part of the world.




And here he goes again. What utter BS. This guy is definitely a Paki troll.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby johneeG » 30 Jul 2015 20:26

Harpal ji,
Ok, lets assume that the grandmaster sitting in Pakistan is timing Modi govt reaction.

What next?

What if Modi govt decides to go to war and tanks start rolling across the Wagah towards Lahore? What will the grandmaster in Pakistan do? What are his options?

My point is: Pakistan is already doing everything that it can. And Bhaarath is not even doing 10% of what it can. All the grandmasters of the world can sit in Pakistan but its not going to change anything.

Anyway, I wonder why you want to shield Pakistan from terror allegation. Yes, jihadis are all over and world. But, how many jihadis are interested in Khalisthan issue? Only Pakistani state is interested in reviving Khalisthan. That clearly exposes Pakistani state.

Lets add 2 & 2:
- Pakistani state patronizes Jihadis.
- Jihadis attack in Punjab and try to revive Khalisthan.
- Khalisthan is a pet project of Pakistani state.

Voila! These jihadis were also sent by Pakistani state.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby SBajwa » 30 Jul 2015 20:27

by Harpal Bector
Given the spread of Jihadism, it may be these people are not from Pakistan but they are from some other part of the world.


you are saying that If it walk, talks and swims like a duck it could be a goat?

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Harpal Bector » 30 Jul 2015 20:28

I was referring to the spread of IS like groups. These groups are growing in presence in Africa and it is very easy for someone from Nigeria or Kenya to enter India.

The Gurdaspur guys are Pakistanis per the MHA's statement - so it must be true.

But the next wave of attacks could come from anywhere. That is what I am talking about.

This crisis is over. The wait for the next one has begun.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby SBajwa » 30 Jul 2015 20:28

sure! and ISIS have nothing else to do but sneak across the Baki border into India to attack a police station in a small town Dinanagar.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Tuvaluan » 30 Jul 2015 20:29

HarpalBector wrote:My humor is trying to mask the much more bitter pill i.e. my assessment that Pakistan has come a long way since the tactically brilliant phase of General Musharraf. One is coping with a different Pakistan today than in ages past.


Bitter pill, my foot. As for your "humor", shove it...and speak clearly instead of writing garbage and pretending it was all humorous, when it is not.

Your assessment is mostly garbage just like the rest of your nonsense -- Pakistan has done similar terrorist acts in the past with military personnel under the guise of non state actors. If at all, the fact that these guys are finding it harder to killer as many Indians as in the past is an indicator that quality of personnel and capability is reducing. So the question you really need to ask yourself, is whether you are letting your inner paki out in full public view or not, by deliberately making the pakis more threatening and clever than they are in real life.

since you clearly seem to grok the cleverness of the babus (and trying to pass on said cleverness to us idiots here, who are obviously not smart enough to understand all that babu brilliance) , I can just say that if the likes are you represent the peak of cleverness in the babudom in India, it would explain why India's pakistan policy has been an utter mess for decades.
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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 30 Jul 2015 20:33

Harpal Bector wrote:
The SG(F) should (at least in theory) be able to reduce the likely casualty rate in capture operations so that loss of life during the Kasab capture is avoided. Kasab's capture was a fluke. SG(F) should make it more predictable affair.

.


And this proves this guy has never been in the fauj or the police or CPFs. What utter nonsense. How do you know how any contact with any terrorist/pak regular will occur and unfold. I can't even begin to articulate how idiotic this is.
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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Harpal Bector » 30 Jul 2015 20:33

Does something prevent Africans recruited by IS type entities in Nigeria from being tasked for an operation in India by ISI?

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Harpal Bector » 30 Jul 2015 20:36

Akshay Kapoor wrote:How do you know how any contact with any terrorist/pak regular will occur and unfold.


Dear Field Marshal Akshay Kapoor Sahab,

Which is why I am saying that a special force is needed. If this could be done by what is available on the shelf - then there would be no need for this.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 30 Jul 2015 20:37

No it does not, but then it is still the ISI and Pakis doing the op which you are refusing to accept !! And visual inspection can show you whether it was a Nigerian or a Paki ! And in this case they were Paki regulars.

Objective is very clear - please read Gen Hasnain's article like I suggested before. Crystal clear thought unlike your muddled BS.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Harpal Bector » 30 Jul 2015 20:41

Tuvaluan wrote: Bitter pill, my foot. As for your "humor", shove it...and speak clearly instead of writing garbage and pretending it was all humorous, when it is not.


Arre bhai - I said no more humor - so chill out.

Pakistan has done similar terrorist acts in the past with military personnel under the guise of non state actors. If at all, the fact that these guys are finding it harder to killer as many Indians as in the past is an indicator that quality of personnel and capability is reducing.


Can this be said to be true? because at Gurdaspur it looks like they penetrated miles into heavily defended territory.

since you clearly seem to grok the cleverness of the babus (and trying to pass on said cleverness to us idiots here, who are obviously not smart enough to understand all that babu brilliance) , I can just say that if the likes are you represent the peak of cleverness in the babudom in India, it would explain why India's pakistan policy has been an utter mess for decades.


I am just a very understanding person. I don't think India's policy is a "mess" but it is "complicated". Which is why I am here trying to see what it takes to get people to reassess held notions about Pakistani capabilities.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 30 Jul 2015 20:41

Harpal Bector wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:How do you know how any contact with any terrorist/pak regular will occur and unfold.


Dear Field Marshal Akshay Kapoor Sahab,

Which is why I am saying that a special force is needed. If this could be done by what is available on the shelf - then there would be no need for this.


Dear Joker No 1,

How will that force do anything different than our regular RR units or SF or army while in contact ? If you can capture the bloody chap ofcourse you will. Whats so special about this force ? Will they change the way bullets fly so that they can wade in and capture the Harpals instead of killing them ? Will they shoot in some special way that the bullet will make the guy unconscious ?

kya bakwas kar raha hai.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Harpal Bector » 30 Jul 2015 20:44

Akshay Kapoor wrote:No it does not, but then it is still the ISI and Pakis doing the op which you are refusing to accept !! And visual inspection can show you whether it was a Nigerian or a Paki ! And in this case they were Paki regulars.


So there is no way the ISI can repeat the Nairobi episode in India? Because only PA regulars can put up that kind of a fight?

Can you tell me what makes you say they are PA regulars on extra-regimental duties?

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Harpal Bector » 30 Jul 2015 20:45

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Whats so special about this force ? Will they change the way bullets fly so that they can wade in and capture the Harpals instead of killing them ?


They might not use bullets at all.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 30 Jul 2015 20:47

Let me throw you a bone...

You should say that we should create a special team picking from NSG, Vikas, Para SF to go into Pakland and capture or eliminate high value targets. Now that would make some sense. The issues of identifying the traget, infiltrating and then exfiltrating are extremely challenging. But atleast it makes sense given the right intelligence, opportunity and will.

But this BS about a special force that will capture Harpals alive in an ongoing engagement on our own soil is BS.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby johneeG » 30 Jul 2015 20:47

Harpal Bector wrote:Does something prevent Africans recruited by IS type entities in Nigeria from being tasked for an operation in India by ISI?


In theory, Pakistan can even train Jinns. But, given the practical constraints, Pakistani states finds it easier and cheaper to train poor Pakistanis and send them across the border.

It is easier and cheaper. If some of them are caught, so what? Pakistan will just deny, deny and deny.

Pakistan doesn't have to do super-duper complex kind of terrorism. It is neither necessary nor affordable nor useful. Any guy in Bhaarath will know immediately that it was Pak sponsored terrorism. Even if Pakistan manages to cover its tracks very skillfully and Bhaarath decides to make allegations of terrorism on Pakistan, the situation will be same.

So, Pakistan finds it useful, easy, affordable and practical to use poor pakistanis to do terrorism in Bhaarath. This is their only offensive capability against Bhaarath and they are already using it to fullest. The next thing is nuclear threat to stop war and that is also seen in ample measures.

The ball is in Bhaarath's court.

Harpal Bector wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:How do you know how any contact with any terrorist/pak regular will occur and unfold.


Dear Field Marshal Akshay Kapoor Sahab,

Which is why I am saying that a special force is needed. If this could be done by what is available on the shelf - then there would be no need for this.


A whole new special force to catch terrorists alive. Then, what? What is to be achieved by capturing these terrorists alive? Nothing comes out of it as it was proved in 26/11 Kasab's case. It made no difference at all to the final outcome so far.

So, its a waste of time and money to capture terrorists alive. If you can do it cheaply without much effort then fine. But, putting too much money and effort for it is useless.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 30 Jul 2015 20:49

Harpal Bector wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:Whats so special about this force ? Will they change the way bullets fly so that they can wade in and capture the Harpals instead of killing them ?


They might not use bullets at all.



:rotfl: :rotfl:

and pray what magical weapon will they use ? Harpal logic ? It will work, the buggers will definitely surrender. As I do.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Harpal Bector » 30 Jul 2015 20:52

Akshay Kapoor wrote: You should say that we should create a special team picking from NSG, Vikas, Para SF to go into Pakland and capture or eliminate high value targets. Now that would make some sense. The issues of identifying the traget, infiltrating and then exfiltrating are extremely challenging. But atleast it makes sense given the right intelligence, opportunity and will.


That is not what I am saying at all. That is a completely separate conversation one that I am not willing to entertain right now.

There is growing body of work on non-lethal weapons which can be used in conflict resolution.

I am proposing a separate exploratory unit at Nahan to look into the use of these in certain internal security situations that fall well outside the norm of current operations.

I don't want Lama Fauj near it - jmho they have enough on their plate and commitments in the east will only likely increase in the near future.

Any learning from this unit could be transferred to SAG at the appropriate time but SAG can remain focused on HR functions for now.

Para-SF again has enough work on their plate.
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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Harpal Bector » 30 Jul 2015 20:55

Akshay Kapoor wrote: and pray what magical weapon will they use ? Harpal logic ? It will work, the buggers will definitely surrender. As I do.


Good glad to hear you are surrendering - now we talk as we should have in the first place. FWIW I am also surrendering to you.
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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Harpal Bector » 30 Jul 2015 21:03

Dear johneeG,

A whole new special force to catch terrorists alive. Then, what? What is to be achieved by capturing these terrorists alive? Nothing comes out of it as it was proved in 26/11 Kasab's case. It made no difference at all to the final outcome so far. So, its a waste of time and money to capture terrorists alive. If you can do it cheaply without much effort then fine. But, putting too much money and effort for it is useless.


Again that issue of how the live terrorist is to be used as leverage - I want to leave as a separate discussion. I want to bite off small pieces of the problem at a time only.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Harpal Bector » 30 Jul 2015 21:05

Dear Akshay,

I didn't mean to put you in a spot. You don't have to respond right away to what I am proposing. You can take your time and talk to some friends and see what they say.

I will talking others also, I just want to get a no-holds-barred review of the idea from all quarters. If it is presented as the top down view, then people will agree with it even if it is a bad idea.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Tuvaluan » 30 Jul 2015 21:06

Harpal Bector wrote:Can this be said to be true? because at Gurdaspur it looks like they penetrated miles into heavily defended territory.


That was not the first time they did that either -- defensive infrastructure is not meant keep out 100% of intruders 100% of the time -- effectiveness is measured in terms of how many people get in over some interval of time, and how often they manage to get in. They only got past here this time because it is clearly harder for them to get through the LoC/JK. So what is this about "deep penetration into Gurdaspur" when the border between the countries is in the order of 100s of miles, and patrols can only be physically present in a small fraction of the border? How does that imply some gaandmaster in Pakistan is making sekrit plans to execute awesome strategeries or that the pakis have suddenly acquired extra capabilities that make them more formidable. Fails a lot of elementary bullsh!t tests.
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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby mayo » 30 Jul 2015 21:06

Harpal Bector wrote:@Akshay - chalo sir, I have finally gotten a smile out of you. That is a good thing. Humor is the only medicine for Jingos right now.


If Modi/Doval intentionally choose to delay the response by, let's say, two weeks and then do some real good ass-whupping, what can the porkies or masters learn from that timing? What makes you believe that the Govt is going to behave like a programmed automaton and respond in the least amount of time? Please answer this before peddling grand theories.

If people on this board know what Porkies are trying to get out of this, won't the guys designing the retaliation know? And if they do, won't they know how the porkies + 3.5 not get what they want to get?

Is common sense a casualty in too much reading of the fancy game theories?

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Harpal Bector » 30 Jul 2015 21:15

Tuvaluan wrote: That was not the first time they did that either -- defensive infrastructure is not meant keep out 100% of intruders 100% of the time -- effectiveness is measured in terms of how many people get in over some interval of time, and how often they manage to get in.


Err... the IB is supposed to be more secure than the LoC. 10 km behind the IB is a deep penetration than 10 km behind LoC.

I don't think the claim that they are finding it harder is sustainable. If anything it looks like IB has become porous again.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Harpal Bector » 30 Jul 2015 21:18

mayo wrote: If Modi/Doval intentionally choose to delay the response by, let's say, two weeks and then do some real good ass-whupping, what can the porkies or masters learn from that timing? What makes you believe that the Govt is going to behave like a programmed automaton and respond in the least amount of time? Please answer this before peddling grand theories.


Denying them the information they want will only lead them to make another provocation.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby johneeG » 30 Jul 2015 21:22

Harpal Bector wrote:
mayo wrote: If Modi/Doval intentionally choose to delay the response by, let's say, two weeks and then do some real good ass-whupping, what can the porkies or masters learn from that timing? What makes you believe that the Govt is going to behave like a programmed automaton and respond in the least amount of time? Please answer this before peddling grand theories.


Denying them the information they want will only lead them to make another provocation.


What will they do with the info?

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Tuvaluan » 30 Jul 2015 21:24

Err... the IB is supposed to be more secure than the LoC. 10 km behind the IB is a deep penetration than 10 km behind LoC.


Deep penetration it seems. Of course, and 1 km is deep penetration compared to 1 meter, so what is your point?

I don't think the claim that they are finding it harder is sustainable. If anything it looks like IB has become porous again.


Perhaps, but what does any of this have to do with your nonsense about pakis getting more formidable and "penetrating deep into Indian territory"? So punjab may have more paki sympathizers of sleeper cells than before, or whatever...how does any of this have any implication on paki capabilities as opposed to being a statistical anomaly? What is the reason you are insisting it is the former and not the latter? How many events have happened to support your view? Can you list them out? Otherwise, as already suggested, you are mostly peddling garbage, as is pretty obvious. If you change goalposts again without responding to specific questions asked of you, based on your proclamations, maybe it is time to write you of as a worthless troll and move on.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby mayo » 30 Jul 2015 21:25

Harpal Bector wrote:
mayo wrote: If Modi/Doval intentionally choose to delay the response by, let's say, two weeks and then do some real good ass-whupping, what can the porkies or masters learn from that timing? What makes you believe that the Govt is going to behave like a programmed automaton and respond in the least amount of time? Please answer this before peddling grand theories.


Denying them the information they want will only lead them to make another provocation.


The whole idea of that ass-whupping is to deter. If they try again, Doval will get to calibrate the whupping better.

And how will they know that we have denied them what they wanted?

You are a genius. Even I can see that.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Tuvaluan » 30 Jul 2015 21:26

Harpal Bector wrote:Denying them the information they want will only lead them to make another provocation.


Yes, you have repeated this for the 100th time -- what you have failed to do is explain what any genius in Pakistan can do with such information. If you were not actually bullsh!tting people here, you would be able to explain that pretty easily.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Harpal Bector » 30 Jul 2015 21:44

Actually I have even said that part a 1000 times. The Pakistanis will use that information to tailor their own response timescales. If they measure India's response timescale to be 1 day, they will try to put a defensive process in place that will take less than a day to implement so that when the blow falls - they will have deflected most of it.

The Pakistanis will know they have been denied when India doesn't respond in the time that the Pakistanis estimate is comparable to previous governments, then they will poke again to see what happens.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 30 Jul 2015 21:47

Guys,

why are we wasting our time with this chap ? His credentials are 0, his intentions are highly suspect, he is clearly batting for the other side, his logic is idiotic, he keeps changing his stand like a chameleon. Why waste our energy on him. I suggest we report him. I already have.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Sid » 30 Jul 2015 21:49

Harpal Bector wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:Whats so special about this force ? Will they change the way bullets fly so that they can wade in and capture the Harpals instead of killing them ?


They might not use bullets at all.


You are seriously trolling now. First I thought you might have something which we don't know but that's a crock of shit.

This SG(F) and an idea that now they might be totally some third entity (like ISIL), you are now living in porky dilution land. Only they think they are fighting on the side of angles and every false flag attack in India is done by RAW or someone else. And you are adding ISIL to that list?

Stop feeding this troll.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Harpal Bector » 30 Jul 2015 21:57

Tuvaluan wrote: Perhaps, but what does any of this have to do with your nonsense about pakis getting more formidable and "penetrating deep into Indian territory"?


The IB is the most heavily policed area in India. If they can get past that I don't see how a few dozen ICG boats will be able to keep them out of the Gulf of Cambay.

So punjab may have more paki sympathizers of sleeper cells than before, or whatever...how does any of this have any implication on paki capabilities as opposed to being a statistical anomaly? What is the reason you are insisting it is the former and not the latter?


Anything that increases the porosity of the IB automatically enhances Pakistani capabilities. Statistical anomaly or systemic defect - there is an effective enhancement of Pakistan's abilities.

you are mostly peddling garbage, as is pretty obvious.


Have I answered your questions?

If you change goalposts again without responding to specific questions asked of you, based on your proclamations, maybe it is time to write you of as a worthless troll and move on.


I am not moving any goal posts - I don't think they are having any difficulty killing Indians. The border has become porous. The only reason they went to Dinanpur is because they wanted to. If they had chosen they could have derailed the train and attacked that.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby dinesh_kimar » 30 Jul 2015 22:01

Breaking News: one of the 2 terrorists has infiltrated into an Indian Military Forum. The Grandmaster is still at large. Sources say that the clock is ticking.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Sid » 30 Jul 2015 22:02

dinesh_kumar wrote:Breaking News: one of the 2 terrorists has infiltrated into an Indian Military Forum. The Grandmaster is still at large. Sources say that the clock is ticking.


Do you have any proof?

What is Grandmaster's grandmother name?

Our Modi team cannot act until you answer above questions.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Harpal Bector » 30 Jul 2015 22:05

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Guys, why are we wasting our time with this chap ? His credentials are 0, his intentions are highly suspect, he is clearly batting for the other side, his logic is idiotic, he keeps changing his stand like a chameleon. Why waste our energy on him. I suggest we report him. I already have.


Now what is bothering you? are you upset because I mentioned Nahan? or Lama Fauj? or should I not have brought up "eastern commitments"?

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby johneeG » 30 Jul 2015 22:08

This is the sum-total of grand-master-giri:
Image

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby mayo » 30 Jul 2015 22:12

Harpal Bector wrote:Actually I have even said that part a 1000 times. The Pakistanis will use that information to tailor their own response timescales. If they measure India's response timescale to be 1 day, they will try to put a defensive process in place that will take less than a day to implement so that when the blow falls - they will have deflected most of it.

The Pakistanis will know they have been denied when India doesn't respond in the time that the Pakistanis estimate is comparable to previous governments, then they will poke again to see what happens.


A ha! I thought so too.

In all your theories, Pakis are the mards with hunter in their hands, always designing devious experiments against hapless desis. Bharatiyas are the dormant punching bags. Are you a delusional paki?

Somebody rightly said आदमी चुनौतियों से नहीं, चूतियों से परेशान है. You may need google translator for that.


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