Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attack

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 30 Jul 2015 10:22

The so called proxy war looks to have time-table of its own. Annual serviceability or a five year plan. Irrespective of the govt at helm, this is going on for three decades.

It is planned well in advance. Seasons and dates are fixed, robots are identified and infiltrated.

Is there any pattern to this? Like season, robots infiltrated, amount of ammunition, age group, ethnicity of robots etc?

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 30 Jul 2015 10:22

India has been demonstrating a new policy of escalation dominance under Modi, that is conducting itself as commensurate with its military, economy, technology, potential, legitimacy as a nation-civilisation etc.

Gurdaspur would have been a disaster but for the actions of the bus driver and the railway men. Superb competence demonstrated by 'lowly' employees. I am sure the Panjab police were equally dutiful, though details are sketchy as yet.

I don't know where this notion of a low temperature terrorist attack is coming from.

It may have more to do with internal fauj/feudal competition for the rights to despoil that blasted country of its resources. It may be significant that it come shortly after Ufa.

habal · Post by **habal** » 30 Jul 2015 10:26

targetting the elite as response to anything and everything is also a good strategy.

Low intensity attack : Target elite
High intensity attack: still target elite

IIly
if evidence available: Overt operation
if intelligence available: Covert operation

how long will rawalpindi and pakjabi elite be able to tolerate this with their pathetic geo-strategic position has to be seen. The handicapped Grandmaster ™ is sitting 58 nautical miles from poonch-mendhar border.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 30 Jul 2015 10:39

Stating the should-be obvious. Any retaliation that is public will
(a) involve a lot of collateral damage
(b) risk many more Indian lives and limbs.
(c) not achieve diddly-squat because the Paki Guvrmand will go into its "V R Biggest Victim of Terrorism!"

(d) Bring condom-nation from Yoo-Enn, Yoo-Ess Yoo-Row, etc etc.

Why do all this?
Hit where it SHOULD hurt.
So check the news for what happened in Bakistan right after the Gurdaspur attack. U may find something, u may not. GOI not commenting.

kulhari · Post by **kulhari** » 30 Jul 2015 10:44

Perhaps the two incidents : terrorist attack on Dinanagar and Hanging of Yakoob Memon are related.

FWIW: Perhaps the terrorists wanted to take hostages to negotiate release of YM (in order to destroy the credibility of current GOI). And perhaps we had some idea about the motives and hence the quick decisions on YM hanging (although this should have come very early).

JMT

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 30 Jul 2015 10:46

Some pressure on the golas:

11 active terror mails in Kashmir Valley run from Pakistan: US
Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

NEW DELHI: The United States has confimed to India that of the 23 most active terror email accounts operating in the Valley, 11 are functioning from Pakistan and four of these were created using mobile phones with Pakistan numbers.

Of the remaining, two were created in the US and two others, which show as having been created in India give Pakistani mobile numbers as their alternate contact.

This crucial information is part of a 78-page response by the US Department of Justice ..

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 30 Jul 2015 13:08

Rahul M, thanks for your pm.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 30 Jul 2015 13:37

self deleted

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 30 Jul 2015 15:21

So let me get this straight, according to this Suhrawardy Gaandmaster theory of HarpalBector the pakis are now sending terrorists to kill people to see the value of X, at which the Indian govt. will have a disproportionate response to paki terrorism. And once the pakis have figured out the value of X, they will pull out this stop watch out of some orifice and then say -- "voila, the response time is 7 days and 12 minutes, now we know what this Narendra modi govt. is upto. Build our defense posture to activate and ready to push buttons in a week and 12 minutes". Sheer suhrawardy genius.

Of course, the reason the pakis are doing this now, is because they knew the value of X and the response times under the previous government, as Harpal Bector has indicated, but are pretty clueless about these values for the current govt. and hence have to measure. Just imagine where we would all be if we did not have Harpal Bector to explain this to all of us. Just utterly fascinating trolling at various levels, really. Especially given this bit.

Harpal Bector wrote: But the Modivadis and all their teetar buddies had told everyone - me included - that Modiji was going to give muh-tod jawab toh any such shenanigans. I completely believed them, and I dutifully told every Pakistani I met in Dubai and Sharjah during the cricket match what I was told and told them to stop fixing matches otherwise Modiji will get mad and beat them up.

So all your worthless trolling is politically motivated, and not necessarily meant to shed more light, just generate a bunch of heat. Effing retarded jagoff. Thoo. Anyway, Such is that grandmaster genius that they forgot to consider that sending in paki terrorists, special forces or non state actors, to kill punjabis and trying to pretend this is a resurgence of the khalisthan movement is not exactly going to help them one bit. Also, feeling terribly sad that I am unable to use the terms "escalation dominance" and "response times" and "climbing the ladder", which means this post is not sufficiently buzzword compliant.

Meanwhile, Paki Bolis killed the honcho of a rather violent and influential sunni terrorist group, which means that they just raised the internal threat to themselves with one more powerful group out to kill them all. In this atmosphere, conducting plausibly deniable acts of retaliation in sh!tland should be a piece of cake. And the pakis need to be watching to pull out their stopwatch and calculate response times.

arun · Post by **arun** » 30 Jul 2015 15:24

arun wrote:X Posted from the Islamism thread.

Reuters via NDTV reports that Gurdaspur attack Identified as a Mohammadden Terrorist event presumable on account of missile being found to have jettisoned heat shields.

Sumedh Singh Saini, Director General of Police in Punjab:

Terrorists in Gurdaspur Attack Were Muslim: Police ……………………….

"The inspection of the bodies shows that the assailants were Muslims,"
More on the Mohammadden identity of the Terrorists from Hindustan Times which besides mentioning that terrorists were uncircumscribed also talks of body hair being shaved, a practice followed by Mohammadden suicide attackers :

Gurdaspur attackers in early 20s, had trimmed beard, shaved chest, GPS devices ……………………..

Three heavily armed terrorists behind Monday’s audacious attack in Gurdaspur district were ostensibly Muslims, said official sources ……………………….

“The gunmen, in their early 20s, were found to be circumcised and had their chests shaved and beards trimmed. In most of the previous attacks we have found suicide or fidayeen attackers shave their chest before embarking on suicide mission,” said a senior government functionary who was involved in the operation to neutralise them. …………………………..

Also, when Punjab Police cornered them, they were repeatedly heard raising slogans such as “Allah-hu-Akbar” and “Pakistan Zinbaad”.

“The gunmen had two global positioning system (GPS) devices to help them move towards their intended locations. Tracking of these GPS devices has clearly indicated that the terrorists came from the Pakistani side towards Pathankot, said a senior police officer.

“This is first time that terrorists after sneaking in from Pakistan in Jammu area have come towards Punjab. There is heavy police bandobast in Jammu and Kashmir due to the annual Amarnath Yatra. That might be the reason they may have come down to bordering district in Punjab,”
Origin of Mohammadden Terrorists that attacked Gurdaspur using GPS data tracked back to our Mohammadden Terrorism fomenting Western neighbor the Islamic Republic of Pakistan:

Gurdaspur attack: Terrorists from Pakistan crossed Ravi river

X Posted from the “Pakistani Role In Global Terrorism” thread.

Our Home Minister, Rajnath Singh, confirms that point of origin for Mohammadden Terrorists who attacked Gurdaspur was in the Mohammadden Terrorist fomenting Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

Gurdaspur attack: Terrorists came from Pakistan, says Rajnath:

"The preliminary analyses of GPS data indicate that terrorists had infiltrated from Pakistan through the area near Tash in Gurdaspur district where the Ravi River enters Pakistan. It is also suspected that the same terrorists planted five IEDs on the railway tracks near village Talwandi between Dinnanaagr and Jhakoladi which was subsequently defused by the bomb disposal squad," Rajnath said in the Rajya Sabha.

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 30 Jul 2015 15:58

A_Gupta wrote:This type of scenario is running in my head. No resemblance to any characters real or imaginary.

That was hilarious - keep up the good work. I don't know what Modiji will do, but at least we are getting a few laughs to balance all the sadness. Laughter is perhaps the only medicine that a Jingo can take in this situation.

I thought a little bit about your point on "intelligence" v/s "evidence". I am inclined to say that "evidence" is 90% hard fact and 10% inference, "intelligence" can be up to 90% inference and 10% hard fact.

I don't think the Modi government is that inexperienced that it will mix up "intelligence" and "evidence" unless there is serious time pressure. IIRC that kind of mistake only occurred once on Indian soil at the high level, it was during 1984 when there was a scenario floated by someone that Jarnail Singh Bhindran was going declare the formation of an independent Khalistan inside the Harmandir Sahib. This caused the concerns in Delhi to rise rapidly and pushed Gen. Brar's timetable forward. The results of that are well known - it is not that Gen. Brar was unprepared for the possibility of entering the complex but that civilian presence and detailed inputs on Jarnail Singh Bhindran's exact position inside the complex were not in a satisfactory place.

The American experience in Iraq is an example of what happens when the line between "intelligence" and "evidence" is deliberately blurred by vested interests.

I am harping on the "evidence" part of it because that is where things currently are at their weakest. IMO this lack of evidence - which some believe is solely because PAPC lacked the technical expertise to capture one of the suspects alive - is something to carefully consider. It may speak to a major shift inside Aabpara.

To be clear, I am not against any ideas of setting up a SG(F) dedicated to fidayeen apprehension and tracking, which specialized in identifying and arresting (as opposed to killing) Fidayeen squads. I am sure it well within the capabilities at 56 APO to do such things and if there are any lacunae (equipment etc...) it can be made up quickly. I also agree with the basic premise put forth that such a force will create a strong deterrent to sending more such squads across the border. This seems like a sensible suggestion that came up yesterday over some potato parathas and chole.

I am not in favor of Dishaji's idea of going the PM with whatever "inference" there is because I don't think it will do my career much good. My cousin's wife's uncle who was a Circle Inspector in Porbandar tried things like that once, and he was told to never come back to Ahmedabad ever again. I used to be very loyal to the Sahab, I used have my driver take me in that Amby khatara with its nuclear powered AC to get him parathas from Parathewali Galli, and I even ate them myself (you know just to check that it was not poisoned) but then after many trips to AIIMS and finally being allotted a new Sonata, I am inclined to follow Rajivji's example and go eat at the Bukhara. Life is so much better now, I don't want to risk losing it from some jingo's idea of "good fun at a babu's expense".

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 30 Jul 2015 16:07

Yes, I am sure the Modi govt. is the one making decisions and not the people who elected him or defend him on twitter -- and his govt. is well aware of the difference between intelligence and evidence, though they are probably not aware of suhrawardy stopwatches, to their detriment surely.

IIRC that kind of mistake only occurred once on Indian soil at the high level, it was during 1984 when there was a scenario floated by someone that Jarnail Singh Bhindran was going declare the formation of an independent Khalistan inside the Harmandir Sahib.

So if Bhindranwale had made that announcement, Khalisthan would have been inevitable is it? And so people in New Delhi readjusted their busy schedules, cancelled their tennis practise and golf outings, in order to head out much earlier and stormed the golden temple? Yes, all sounds highly believable, like the suhrawardy grandmaster tale.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 30 Jul 2015 16:08

This act seems like an attempt to test the government response to a ‘non-regular’ terrorist activity where the temperature – as terrorist attack go - has been deliberately kept a bit low.

So, the 5 IEDs on the railway track were duds, and the Pachys knew that no train with several hundred passengers aboard would ever get close to that? Gimme a break.

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 30 Jul 2015 16:14

Tuvaluan wrote: So all your worthless trolling is politically motivated, and not necessarily meant to shed more light, just generate a bunch of heat. Effing retarded jagoff. Thoo.

You are misreading my attempts at a "poke-in-the-eye" humor style with an actual political agenda.

Anyway - the debate is now over.

As Arun shares with us - MHA has spoken on the floor of the parliament and indicated that in the government's opinion the GPS data is sufficient to prove a Pakistani origin for the attack.

Any discussion on hard evidence was only relevant until the PM hadn't reached that conclusion. After he had reached the conclusion, all debate on that issue is worthless. The clock is now running at 36 hours. The enemy identification phase of the observation cycle has taken 36 hours.

The discussion has moved to the realms of the area experts on response modalities. That is not something ordinary people like myself can speak about.

So if Bhindranwale had made that announcement, Khalisthan would have been inevitable is it? And so people in New Delhi readjusted their busy schedules, cancelled their tennis practise and golf outings, in order to head out much earlier and stormed the golden temple? Yes, all sounds highly believable, like the suhrawardy grandmaster tale.

I was not there when all this was discussed in the Bluestar. I can only tell you what I have heard said. Beyond that if you want to dismiss it because I am politically unreliable, then that is your prerogative.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 30 Jul 2015 16:17

Speaking of grandmasters, etc., this is the top rated Pakistani chess player:
http://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=7801076

Syed Ahmad, Ali
FIDE title FIDE Master
Rating std. 2354
National Rank PAK 1

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Jul 2015 16:26

so, per that night-vision device and handing over to NIA, we should actually get this going real fast.. i want modi ji to call om baba and nail the amir khaans. for whatsoever frivolous action theirs may be.. but heck, they would not care a heck if they can even sell harpoons and deep-strike munitions to PAF.. why would they care for this? well, that is where we collect data against them... let it be a small hair type device evidence against them.. a subliminal message is hard to win, and it pays rich dividend when we sit to talk for isht-raw-tergies.

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 30 Jul 2015 16:28

What about a Grandmaster on Suhrawardy Street upsets the Jingos so much?

Why this extremely low appraisal of Pakistani abilities?

Historically the Pakistanis have survived on the edge of collapse by making extremely harsh and difficult choices. They have developed strategies for survival that would not be considered viable in post-independence India.

In the Modivadi world view (as in the Indira-is-India worldview many decades past) - the past was supposed to become irrelevant. And yet somehow the past didn't go away.

Must the Jingo view imbibe so much from its Modivadi cousin so as to become incapable of mounting any realistic criticisms of national security policy?

At least people on a Jingo forum should check the Exif data and timestamps on images before celebrating that these are the very people responsible for Gurdaspur event? No? (or should one simply force the brave Sikhs combating this menace in Gurdaspur to have to deal with the baggage of the terrible past at the exact same time?)

Or at least check the date stamp on an image of the PGPC chairman meeting Hafiz Saeed before rushing to say that this three year old dated image has any relevance to the Gurdaspur situation? No?

Or has are the Jingos too afraid to be critical these days?

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 30 Jul 2015 16:28

The clock is now running at 36 hours. The enemy identification phase of the observation cycle has taken 36 hours.

Don't be ridiculous! Rajnath was scheduled to answer questions in Parliament on Tuesday about the Gurdaspur attack (look up the press reports before the news of Pres. APJ Kalam's passing). Parliament was adjourned for 2 days - Tuesday & Wednesday - because of Pres. APJ Kalam's passing away. Because of that, there was no need to say anything. So maybe GOI knew Monday afternoon, maybe they had it figured out only by Wednesday night or Thursday morning; the super-intelligent grandmaster in Suhrawardy street could never have anticipated that Parliament would be adjourned, and that GOI would use that to avoid saying anything; and now has no way of knowing when GOI knew what.

1. Here is e.g., Rajnath scheduled to answer questions in Parliament on Tuesday:
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/gurdaspu ... et-1201075

2. Here is the Tuesday morning confusion about whether Parliament is adjourned for one day or two days:
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... day-break/

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 30 Jul 2015 16:31

And I dutifully told every Pakistani I met in Dubai and Sharjah during the cricket match what I was told and told them to stop fixing matches otherwise Modiji will get mad and beat them up.

Guys, lighten up. That was an absolute gem from Harpal, and you didn't even see it in ur rush to gang up on him.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 30 Jul 2015 16:37

^^^ Doesn't seem funny to me. Anyway, I hope you quote any future such gems that are actually funny because he's going on my Ignore list.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 30 Jul 2015 16:38

Any discussion on hard evidence was only relevant until the PM hadn't reached that conclusion. After he had reached the conclusion, all debate on that issue is worthless. The clock is now running at 36 hours. The enemy identification phase of the observation cycle has taken 36 hours.

The discussion has moved to the realms of the area experts on response modalities. That is not something ordinary people like myself can speak about.

So what exactly happened 36 hours after 26/11, either in terms of response to Pak or in fixing the internal lacunae? Absolutely nothing. 12 months after that, the MEA was still preparing heavier dossiers to lob on pakistan, and absolutely nothing was done to fix up internal security. This home minister's stance is just meant for public consumption...he is the same guy who mouthed off about a "befitting response" like all the other home ministers before him, and absolutely nothing happened all the previous times too. There is no indication that this govt. is going to make any response out in the open -- only the pakis gain from such escalation and besides, it does not buy India anything at all, and in fact leaves the initiative in the hands of the pakis to control the situation.

Just because the current govt. responded immediately in the North East recently does not mean, that same tactic will be used with Pakistan. There is no clock that is running except in the minds of people where this is some sort of action-reaction sequence of trading violence -- has never been that way in the past, and no reason why it should change because of new govt. in charge. Public response will involve not playing more cricket or the PM canceling the trip to Pakistan that he claimed he was going to make a Ufa. No reason why public stance will change just because of a new regime.

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 30 Jul 2015 16:39

A_Gupta wrote:
The clock is now running at 36 hours. The enemy identification phase of the observation cycle has taken 36 hours.
Don't be ridiculous! Rajnath was scheduled to answer questions in Parliament on Tuesday about the Gurdaspur attack (look up the press reports before the news of Pres. APJ Kalam's passing). Parliament was adjourned for 2 days - Tuesday & Wednesday - because of Pres. APJ Kalam's passing away. Because of that, there was no need to say anything. So maybe GOI knew Monday afternoon, maybe they had it figured out only by Wednesday night or Thursday morning; the super-intelligent grandmaster in Suhrawardy street could never have anticipated that Parliament would be adjourned, and that GOI would use that to avoid saying anything; and now has no way of knowing when GOI knew what.

Actually I corrected for that - the actual clock is at 72 hours, but like you say allowing for the mourning period for Sri. Kalam's death, I shortened it to 36 hours.

Briefly here is my estimate of the previous response timescales for some things

1) LoC/AGPL incident - 1 hour.
2) J&K event - 6-12 hours
3) IB incident - 24-36 hours
4) India(Main) event - 36-72 hours.

Obviously the timescales change with event magnitude. If the event is small (~10 killed) then the response timescale is what I have listed above. If it is medium (~100s) killed then it can go up by a factor of 1.5-2. If it is massive (1000s killed) then the time frame has gone up 5x. I feel this is mostly a reflection of the load that the event puts on India crisis management machinery. Things are much better nowadays wrt crisis management in India. In the last decade a lot of resources have become available for suppressing the load due to immediate crisis response.

I am not sure what these numbers are for the Modi government. Per Modivadi writings things were supposed to get much faster and in the weeks after Sri. Modi took office, every babu was told keep it to a single MS PPT side. So far I am not seeing a major shift in that timescale.

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 30 Jul 2015 16:46

Tuvaluan wrote: So what exactly happened 36 hours after 26/11, either in terms of response to Pak or in fixing the internal lacunae? Absolutely nothing.

AFAIK there was an aggressive patrol by IAF - that Pakistanis described as an airspace intrusion. ISPR and Kayani's friends on the internet claimed that the PAF had flown interference and taken gun camera shots of the intruding IAF aircraft. I think there may have been some PAF attempt at a BARCAP type flight but the claims of gun camera shots are overblown.

I don't know if anything was released on the patrol, but the environment in the meeting PA-ISI and LeT leadership became quite tense when PA-AD informed LeT that it would not be able to prevent an IAF raid on Samahini esp. at night.

Once Shuja refused, I think one of the Durranis (I have forgotten if it was Asad Miyan or Mahmud Ali) was sent as a proxy. So the original drama played out in front of the proxy.

I am sorry I can't be more informative- I only know so much.

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 30 Jul 2015 16:53

Lighten up Guptaji - as I said abhi toh yeh shuru hua hain. If you get this upset now - what will you do when the Grandmaster moves the next power up on the board?

it does not behoove a Jingo who has drunk mother dairy's milk to be so high strung.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 30 Jul 2015 16:55

Harpal Bector,

AFAIK ? Do you actually know anything ? Please share your credentials with us. And your sources.

Moderators, I would like to flag these posts from Harpal Bector as disinformation and trolling.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 30 Jul 2015 16:56

Bector saab, what's the source for ur material?

Also, please stop derailing this thread with your "grandmother" stories. Porkies' know at the end of any time calculation they "will" be bitch slapped, hence calculations don't matter. They cannot win, its as simple as that.

But what I agree on is that this event should not be analyzed as a standalone case. There is a bigger picture that we are missing, (not the "grandmother" story).

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 30 Jul 2015 16:59

HarpalBector wrote: AFAIK there was an aggressive patrol by IAF - that Pakistanis described as an airspace intrusion. ISPR and Kayani's friends on the internet claimed that the PAF had flown interference and taken gun camera shots of the intruding IAF aircraft. I think there may have been some PAF attempt at a BARCAP type flight but the claims of gun camera shots are overblown.

Pakis lie all the time and say utter cr@p -- any reason why they should be taken at face value, especially if they are "kayani's friends on the internet" just like I am "Madhuri Dixit's old flame" on the internet. It is not just the camera shots that are overblown here from what I can tell.

I don't know if anything was released on the patrol, but the environment in the meeting PA-ISI and LeT leadership became quite tense when PA-AD informed LeT that it would not be able to prevent an IAF raid on Samahini esp. at night.

So now the IAF was going to conduct an air raid on Pakistan under the leadership of Manmohan Singh and AK Anthony is it? Should I turn on a laugh track, because this is all bordering on the hilarious. This is the same set of people who could not take on a piddly maldives for reneging on their GMR contract and handing it over to the chinese? please give me a break.

Once Shuja refused, I think one of the Durranis was sent as a proxy. So the original drama played out in front of the proxy.

All those terrorists in the paki army have not changed their playbook for decades -- they still harbor illusions of breaking India apart by conducting terrorist attacks. So who gives a rat's arse about what Shuja or Durrani thought or said, really. MMS and his govt.'s line was "peace at all costs" so excuse me if I chortle at your claims of IAF going in and bombing Pakistan after 26/11. Sounds like those stories I used to tell Madhuri Dixit when we were an item back in the day.

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 30 Jul 2015 17:08

FWIW let me share some of the discussions that took place over potato paratha and chole.

Setting up a SG(F) with specific responsibility to take fidayeen alive.

Rationale - Every live Fidayeen is a huge embarrassment to his controllers. Can be used in major media campaigns against Pakistani terrorism sponsorship machinery. Media campaigns will eventually hit home in the Jihadi heartland and create reluctance in the mind of the Grandmaster of Suhrawardy Street.

Pros - 56 APO has capabilities - equipment and training needed is small increment. Whatever is learned by new unit could be transferred to SAG and police units.

Cons - Will be costly. Missions will exceed HRM profile (this was one of the reasons that the old philosophy of the-best-dahdiwala-is-a-dead-dadhiwala developed). Also live Fidayeen in custody will pose a increase risk of rescue attempts (a la Israel and Hamas)

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 30 Jul 2015 17:16

56 APO ??????????????

Are you out of your mind ? 56 APO means 56 Army Post Office you idiot ! That is the address you write on letters for all field areas in Western , SW and Northern Command. 99 APO is for all letters in Eastern Command.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 30 Jul 2015 17:18

Harpal Bector wrote:FWIW let me share some of the discussions that took place over potato paratha and chole.

Setting up a SG(F) with specific responsibility to take fidayeen alive.

Rationale - Every live Fidayeen is a huge embarrassment to his controllers. Can be used in major media campaigns against Pakistani terrorism sponsorship machinery. Media campaigns will eventually hit home in the Jihadi heartland and create reluctance in the mind of the Grandmaster of Suhrawardy Street.

Pros - 56 APO has capabilities - equipment and training needed is small increment. Whatever is learned by new unit could be transferred to SAG and police units.

Cons - Will be costly. Missions will exceed HRM profile (this was one of the reasons that the old philosophy of the-best-dahdiwala-is-a-dead-dadhiwala developed). Also live Fidayeen in custody will pose a increase risk of rescue attempts (a la Israel and Hamas)

56 APO ??????????????

Are you out of your mind ? 56 APO means 56 Army Post Office you idiot ! That is the address you write on letters for all field areas in Western , SW and Northern Command. 99 APO is for all letters in Eastern Command.

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 30 Jul 2015 17:19

@Sid

Bhai seeing your confidence in these matters, you must be right. Per your request I will stop with the grandmother's stories. Maybe they are not relevant to the time we live in.

@ Akshay Kapoor

I think I finally understand why Karan and Khalid made it a point to stay away from RR camps when they went for a walk in the valley.

I get all my letters from a post office - don't you? or do you go around telling the internet where you friends live?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 30 Jul 2015 17:21

Must-read. From the person who wrote in the introduction to his book:

Terrorism in the Punjab did not end because the People Got Tired of The Violence. Terrorism ended because we killed the terrorists!

One of my all-time heroes.

Surprised at Gurdaspur
KPS Gill
30 July 2015

[You don’t prepare for terrorism after it has happened. And you don’t just learn from your own experience.]

There is great excitement in the media over two aspects of the Dinanagar terrorist strike: One,that hard evidence in the form of GPS coordinates proves the terrorists came from Pakistan, and that they were in possession of night vision devices with US government markings; two, that the NSA-level talks are going to proceed as scheduled, but “terrorism” is going to be on top of the Indian agenda for discussions.

These are far from the many and urgent issues that are raised by this attack. An investigation is ongoing, and it will certainly uncover significant evidence over time that will point overwhelmingly to Pakistan as the source of this attack. There should be little doubt that this doesn’t matter in the least.

Pakistan has engaged in terrorist proxy war against India for more than 30 years; the cumulative evidence of this is overwhelming and has been shared with Pakistan and the world; none of this has had any impact. India will have to learn to effectively defend itself.

As far as “talks” are concerned, this is an ongoing charade that will lead nowhere. Great hope is being invested in the NSA talks — but what results have the recent discussions between Prime Ministers Narendra Modi and Nawaz Sharif produced? There have been talks and the disruption of talks for decades.

There are other issues that are far more important.

The most significant of these is the degree of visible unpreparedness in a sensitive border district like Gurdaspur, in a state that has itself experienced over 13 years of the most virulent terrorism, and that adjoins another state that is still the target of a 26-year-old Pakistan-backed proxy war.

Even the Special Weapons and Tactics (Swat) team was not wearing rudimentary protection at Dinanagar.

Unless a crisis is immediately at hand, institutions are simply pushed into degeneration and decay, robbed of resources, deeply politicised, or just allowed to deteriorate through sheer neglect.

It is useful to recall that Punjab Police had been forged, in the late-1980s and early 1990s, into an efficient and fully equipped counter-terrorism (CT) force,with each thana provided adequate capacities — protection, transport, weapons and the limited technological tools then available— to respond to any challenge within its jurisdiction.

Clearly, these systems have crumbled and, were it not for the courage of those who fought terrorism at its peak and who still serve in the police, the state’s capacity for response would now have been virtually non-existent.

Indeed, even in crisis, security forces face an uphill battle in securing the most basic resources and capacities.

The civilian bureaucracy has been one of the most obstructive entities in this regard, and I recall, during the peak of terrorism in Punjab, I was in constant and abrasive confrontation with the secretariat in Chandigarh and New Delhi.

Confronted by continuous ambushes and attacks, we repeatedly asked for bulletproof vehicles, but received no response.

So we went ahead and improvised. Some old and condemned Ambassadors were recovered and bulletproofed, and were found to be extremely successful.

Later, audit objections were raised against our efforts. We were bulletproofing vehicles for less than Rs 2 lakh, but were subsequently forced to buy them for over Rs 6 lakh.

This is the genius of the bureaucracy.

Significantly, at Dinanagar, the police had to borrow bulletproof vehicles from the army to approach the building under siege.

Again, when the Khalistanis got the AK-47 from Pakistan, Punjab Police was stuck with antiquated .303 bolt-action rifles. When we asked for comparable firepower, there was uniform opposition from the bureaucracy.

One joint secretary in the Union home ministry wrote that no such weapon should be given to a “civil force”.

There was a misconception that such weapons could be used to quell protests, without realising that not every policeman was going to be issued an AK rifle.

What is not realised is that you don’t prepare for terrorism after it has happened. You must be prepared at all times. And you don’t just learn from your own experience.

States across India have been attacked by Islamist terrorists. Yet, each state is caught by surprise and pleads that the “Centre had not provided intelligence” or “resources”.

As if state governments have no responsibility. And when the Centre asks for any dilution of the constitutional allocation of “law and order” to the jurisdiction of the states, there are (rightly) shrill protestations from all chief ministers.

The entire Punjab border with Pakistan was fenced during the terrorism years. Heavy patrolling and constant vigilance reduced direct infiltration to an easily manageable trickle.

But today, while the fence still stands, there is increasing laxity in surveillance and oversight.

Deep political patronage has sought to facilitate drug trafficking and smuggling of other contraband, and this has resulted in the regular movement of materials and men across this sensitive frontier, substantially with the collusion of some police and paramilitary personnel.

The Centre must also share at least some of the blame.

Punjab has been downgraded in terms of support for expenditure on security, and the Central scheme for police modernisation has also been scrapped by the Modi regime.

This is despite the fact that the IB is constantly issuing warnings that Punjab is a “sensitive state”.

Dinanagar is just a sign of threats to come.

The regional and global environment is deeply troubling,and Punjab is a frontline state. It is crucial that the CT capacities of Punjab Police be restored. All police stations along the international border, in particular, need to be strengthened.

Crucially, the issue of morale also needs to be addressed. No attention is paid to the fact that dozens of police officers and men who fought terrorism at its peak continue to languish in jails, and many others are still facing interminable and mischievous prosecution.

There are proliferating threats of a global Islamist terrorism today. It is high time that concerned citizens, the media and elements in the political constituency made a concerted effort to bring substantive issues of CT policy, strategy and tactics to the fore,instead of wasting efforts on high-decibel nothings.

The writer, former DGP, Punjab, is president, Institute for Conflict Management, and publisher, ‘South Asia Intelligence Review’
http://indianexpress.com/article/opinio ... gurdaspur/

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Jul 2015 17:23

http://www.hindustantimes.com/chandigar ... 74183.aspx

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 30 Jul 2015 17:25

You are writing about 56 APO in terms of training and equipment implying its an operational combat unit !!!

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. What a joker !!

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 30 Jul 2015 17:30

The entire Punjab border with Pakistan was fenced during the terrorism years. Heavy patrolling and constant vigilance reduced direct infiltration to an easily manageable trickle. But today, while the fence still stands, there is increasing laxity in surveillance and oversight. Deep political patronage has sought to facilitate drug trafficking and smuggling of other contraband, and this has resulted in the regular movement of materials and men across this sensitive frontier, substantially with the collusion of some police and paramilitary personnel.

KPSG hits a sixer again!! Wah yeh aadmi bahut sahi hain!

Okay guys - why don't we discuss the pros and cons of the SG(F)?

That way I have more than just the parathas to think about at dinner today?

Dishaji can collect all your conjectures into a report and present it to PM later tonight.

I will write down a detailed report on this SG(F) idea and then shove it up my backside (as Shiv says one should).

@Akshay

Boss you want to go around telling the internet things about operational capabilities and where exact you know they are physically located then you can do that. You may have a maruti 800 and a bajaj scooty, but as I said, I have brand new official Sonata to think about.

just as an alternative - you might want to look up sarcasm on the internet. It has some interesting variations.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 30 Jul 2015 17:36

You do not know that 56 APO is a Post Office, claim it is a operational unit and then write some nonsense.

You are now officially our Joker Number 1. You made me laugh like I haven't in years. Thank you.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Jul 2015 17:37

56 APO

Army Post Office does have capabilities that other units do not have.

So there..

Someone is doing some serious "ullu banaoing" here

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 30 Jul 2015 17:40

@Akshay - chalo sir, I have finally gotten a smile out of you. That is a good thing. Humor is the only medicine for Jingos right now.

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 30 Jul 2015 17:41

Shiv,

I am not joking but the Geological Survey of Pakistan in Rawalpindi has more capabilities than all of the Pakistan Government put together.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 30 Jul 2015 17:41

You are right Doc. 56 APO does have capabilities that other units dont have.

Long live APS. Harpal, that means Army Postal Service. I am sure you were Honarary Col Commdt of the APS.