Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attack

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby member_23370 » 28 Jul 2015 03:18

Are all 5 dead? I though one of the pigs was taken alive. Hope he is paraded like kasab to show paki hand and then executed swiftly.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby partha » 28 Jul 2015 03:19

jagga wrote:[color=#FF0000]
[b]"The bombs were detected minutes before a passenger train was to cross the bridge. The train was stopped 200 metres from the bombs."

[/url]

It looks like pindi pigs wanted to blow up a train bridge in India to overcome the grief of the train 'accident' on a bridge in Pakjab earlier this month.
Last edited by partha on 28 Jul 2015 03:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby saip » 28 Jul 2015 03:36

Bheeshma wrote:Are all 5 dead? I though one of the pigs was taken alive. Hope he is paraded like kasab to show paki hand and then executed swiftly.

It appears to be a mistaken identity. He was a home guard personnel hiding out the shootout in that building. This is what I read.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Gagan » 28 Jul 2015 03:43

partha wrote:It looks like pindi pigs wanted to blow up a train bridge in India to overcome the grief of the train 'accident' on a bridge in Pakjab earlier this month.

My thoughts exactly!
The pakistanis get a tight slap from Allah or TTP or some random terrorist.
They want to try and do an equal equal.

The Marriott Hotel bombing in islamabad was done by the ISI - Marriott's owner was on TV saying that the bomb laden truck was kept in a safe house the day before, was provided special passage, actually escorted to the bombing site by the 'agencies'.

So after this they did a 26/11

I think we need to keep security tight on our schools in this area.
Pakistani TV anchors - dimwits like Shahid Masood were trying to pin the Peshawar APS school attack on India saying that the headmistress, or one of the teachers there, was burnt alive by the terrorists. He pulled this theory out of his big musharraf that burning women is a Hindu tradition and the woman was made a 'sati' :roll:
So Peshawar APS attack is == India/RAW. Such is the level of haramigiri these people have.

So yes, the Pakistanis will try to hit a soft target in India, to overcome the grief of a Jhapad from Allah, or from a Terror strike on them, and try to do an ==.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Vayutuvan » 28 Jul 2015 04:06

Gagan wrote:He pulled this theory out of his big musharraf that burning women is a Hindu tradition and the woman was made a 'sati' :roll: .

I don't think sati's "self-immolation" was physical. It could be ritualistic similar to somebody performs karma kAnDa for self before entering sanyasa Ashrama. pAki lurks - please note. You people study your superior opponents (and older brothers) better if you want to win this civilizational conflict. But then the outcome is already cast in stone. You are going to lose however much you exert yourself both individually or collectively. May be you should not exert your two brain cells and enjoy life as it is.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby disha » 28 Jul 2015 04:25

Reports in the news indicate that the GPS system the pigs carried shows their route all the way from interior of porkistan.

Question is., were they purposely given GPS sets so that it is clearly evident the pigs came from porkistan? If so why?

Is this a subtle message? By CONgoons themselves? Remember the black money from the cricket is drying up (or alternatively indicate to BCCI that keep the taps open for black money since ISI also benefits from it) - the only way to make money on this side in Punjab is over the drug trade. Or is it an open challenge to Modi sarkar with the CONgoons being their B-Team to bait the government in parliament.

Fact is., the trail has been clearly marked and left nakedly open.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Amber G. » 28 Jul 2015 04:53

Sorry if already posted:
Gurdaspur attack: How India can make Pakistan pay without war
The terror strike in Gurdaspur, Punjab, is a tactical error by Pakistan. It extends its sponsorship of terrorism beyond Jammu & Kashmir to Punjab. Though Pakistan was deeply complicit in funding and arming Khalistani terrorists in Punjab in the 1980s and early 1990s, it soon shifted its focus to the Valley.

In the Valley, Pakistan hid behind the veil of the "freedom fighter" - saying it was merely providing moral support to the Kashmiri cause in a "disputed" territory. Punjab is not disputed territory. The Gurdaspur attack exposes the Pakistani establishment as a state sponsor of terrorism based not on ideology but on pathological enmity with India.

Pacifists want to engage with Pakistan. Dialogue is the only way forward, they say. Rajya Sabha MP Mani Shankar Aiyar continues to call for an "uninterrupted and uninterruptible dialogue."

Such carte blanche emboldens a rogue state like Pakistan to launch terrorist attacks on India with impunity and then quickly disown them to pressurise India to resume talks - on Pakistan's terms.

Hawks on the other hand urge the government to launch cross-border raids on Pakistani territory to inflict damage on terror camps (over 40 such camps reportedly exist, though in makeshift infrastructure).

There is, however, a middle way. I wrote this after an Indian soldier was beheaded by Pakistan in January 2013. The prescription on how to make Pakistan pay, without war and without doing nothing, is briefly this:

1. Diplomatic: We can downgrade Pakistan to consular status, allowing its embassy limited diplomatic functionality till Rawalpindi GHQ delivers on 26/11 Mumbai attack and the other terrorist-criminal acts it has perpetrated on India. Pakistan possesses whatever international credibility it has by being associated with India. Downgrade that relationship and you downgrade Pakistan internationally.

2. Economic: As with diplomatic relations, Pakistan needs India. India doesn't need Pakistan. Pakistan's GDP is barely 11 per cent of India's and growing at less than two per cent a year while India's is expanding at over seven per cent a year. India's trade volume (the sum of its global exports and imports) is over $700 billion and dwarfs Pakistan's. Make trade ties conditional to Pakistan delivering on terrorism.

3. Legal: India is unduly sensitive about "internationalising" its conflict with Pakistan. It should instead make it clear to the world that Pakistan's repeated bluff about holding a plebiscite over Kashmir's status is just that - bluff. All the 1948 UNSC resolutions Pakistan constantly refers to - and wilfully distorts - actually demand that Pakistan vacate PoK before a plebiscite can even be considered in Jammu & Kashmir.

Pakistan craves equivalence with India. It recognises it can't claim parity economically, militarily or diplomatically. The only way it can do so is to engage India in a permanent, low-intensity conflict. The Gurdaspur attack is part of this strategy of plausible deniability while inflicting damage on Indian soldiers, police and civilians. Rawalpindi knows that India, with its myriad governance problems, forgets and forgives easily: it's a matter of weeks before it's "business as usual". The Indian government lacks the stomach for a sustained battle of attrition. Hence Pakistan's rehearsed script: attack, deny, posture, engage.

The cowardly Gurdaspur attack by well-armed and -trained terrorists is an opportunity for Prime Minister Narendra Modi to make a strong public statement on Pakistan-sponsored terrorism and take questions from the media. This is the time to assert his leadership. The statement must spell out the government's broad intent and strategy on Pakistan. It need not disclose details of any covert operations on Pakistani soil that may or may not be under planning.

Home Minister Rajnath Singh is scheduled to make a statement on the Gurdaspur terror attack in parliament on Tuesday. It must reflect strong intent, not the mild remarks he initially made to the Press Trust of India (PTI).

National Security Advisory (NSA) Ajit Doval is an old hand on Pakistan-sponsored terrorism. It is important he too make a supplementary statement to the PM's, again without disclosing details of the strategy to counter Pakistani terrorism.

Anything less than this will not help India bring to an end the undeclared war that Pakistan has been waging on our border for decades. Unless Pakistan is made to pay, it will not stop.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby shiv » 28 Jul 2015 06:02

In a sense this is a test that is designed to demonstrate that Pakistan is not Myanmar

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Gagan » 28 Jul 2015 06:30

Two theories:
1. The pakistanis actually believe the nonsense they spout. All the conspiracy theories are the products of an insecure mind that is under a sense of siege from a perceived enemy. There is a RAA agint behind every shadow. Every mishap has the hands of RAA. Since they suck at any thing scientific, have no analytical skills or technology whatsoever, so everything floats in the realm of "Who knows, it might as well be RAA"
2. They are actually not fools, the conspiracy theories are actively released by a very clever, sinister establishment, which knows exactly what they are upto.

Now if you look at some of their actions, one begins to suspect that #1 plays a big part. How else can one explain what they are continuing to do their country hain ji? They are on a suicidal path wrt pakistan as a nation state - and they wilfully continue with their crazy actions?
I mean why would someone like Musharraf do a kargil hain ji? It was truly absurd! There could have been no other outcome but the killing off of all these pakistani soldiers there.
This suicide terrorism is another one. Other than killing the Pakistanis, creating mayhem in the lives of their victims, are they really achieving anything at all? They continue to keep the Jihadi spirit and fervour burning in Pakistan - not entirely a good thing in any progressive society, and bring a bad name for the nation. But this is Pakistan we are talking about right ji?

Like the IA says, one can prepare for an intelligent enemy and superior tactics, but we have to prepare for the absurd also!!!

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Gagan » 28 Jul 2015 06:32

This is a military that orders a terror strike because its civilian PM shook hands with the Hindu PM and didn't act like a Jihadi Paki and didn't display his pakistaniyat.

Gawd help us all...
:roll:

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby shiv » 28 Jul 2015 06:33

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... ocialMedia
Early inspection of data from global positioning sets carried by terrorists who carried out Monday’s attack in Gurdaspur suggests that the group launched its operation from across the border in Pakistan’s Shakargarh area, government sources have told The Indian Express. The sets recovered from the terrorists arrived in New Delhi Monday night for technical analysis. - See more at: http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... 45V0Y.dpuf

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby A_Gupta » 28 Jul 2015 06:36

Gagan wrote:This is a military that orders a terror strike because its civilian PM shook hands with the Hindu PM and didn't act like a Jihadi Paki and didn't display his pakistaniyat.

Gawd help us all...
:roll:


Or, they decided to strike to keep LeT members from defecting to ISIL/Daesh or who knows what else goes in their twisted world. I think to understand them is possible only if one is equally insane.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Anujan » 28 Jul 2015 06:38

Kargil Vijay Diwas is on 26th July. Surely its not a coincidence.

Pakis have been making noises about Khalistan recently.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Gagan » 28 Jul 2015 06:43

Shiv saar
Like your signature:
Terrorists have no religion until it's time to hang them - then we find out the religion

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby shiv » 28 Jul 2015 06:48

To an extent we are all brainwashed to believe that nation states should have a structure that we see India and other "rational" nation states as having. When we look at Pakistan and find that this "rationality" does not exist - it appears absurd. But he fact is that Pakistan is not a whole and rational nation state. It is a collection of vested interests and the most powerful of those vested interests have friends to support them in the US and China.

I wonder if only Indians labour under this delusion that countries should behave in a particular manner. The US for example is only interested in the US behaving like a rational nation state. They do not give a flying fuk if Saudi or Pakistan do not show the behaviour required of a rational nation state. Heck the US declared that the USSR, China, Iraq, Korea etc were not rational states.

All Indians who show puzzlement at Pakistani actions make me sad and angry because they are all brainwashed enough to expect team behaviour from a crowd. There is a difference between a team and a crowd. Parts of the crowd that are misbehaving need to be punished. We cannot forever condone crowd misbehaviour using the excuse that there are innocents in the crowd.

May I predict that all of Pakistan's training camps near the border will be emptied of people temporarily while the expect and prepare for retaliation from India. And when that retaliation fails to come they will come back to normal.

Intel agencies have been crying themselves hoarse for the past couple of weeks. I admit that single attacks may not be preventable, but unless some elements in Pakistan feel pain there will be no change. Pakistan is heading towards a demographic explosion of young, Islamized and angry men. In India we will howl and cry that young people need education and employment. Imagine if India's elite really behaved like the stereotypical and totally mythical "Brahmin Bania" who lives for himself and does not give a damn for slavery, poverty or unemployment. Now that is exactly the behaviour that Pakistanis are showing. As long as we imagine that they need to, or will behave like Indians we will never "understand" Pakistan.
Last edited by shiv on 28 Jul 2015 06:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby shiv » 28 Jul 2015 06:49

Gagan wrote:Shiv saar
Like your signature:
Terrorists have no religion until it's time to hang them - then we find out the religion

Got it on Teetar. I have another one that needs to be used "Terrorists have no religion unless they are Hindus, Sikhs or Jews"

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby disha » 28 Jul 2015 06:51

shiv wrote:In a sense this is a test that is designed to demonstrate that Pakistan is not Myanmar


Similar thoughts as above did cross my mind., first Pakistan gets to demonstrate that it is not Myanmar and local p-secs and their assorted B-teams can call it as a "Test for Modi Sarkaar". This is particularly designed to put Modi Sarkaar in a bind locally., and prove to the baki local jehadis about their sovirginity.

PS: I am not able to put thoughts across as concisely as Shiv saar. So limited posts from me.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby A_Gupta » 28 Jul 2015 06:51

shiv wrote:http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/gurdaspur-terror-attack-gps-shows-terror-team-from-pakistan-got-drug-cartel-help-too/?SocialMedia
Early inspection of data from global positioning sets carried by terrorists who carried out Monday’s attack in Gurdaspur suggests that the group launched its operation from across the border in Pakistan’s Shakargarh area, government sources have told The Indian Express. The sets recovered from the terrorists arrived in New Delhi Monday night for technical analysis. - See more at: http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... 45V0Y.dpuf


This infuriates me even more. I'm pretty certain that once these guys crossed the border, one of them could have spent a couple of minutes to erase the previous way-points from the GPSes. It suggests to me that the Pakistanis behind this attack don't even care to cover their tracks. They seem arrogant in their confidence that nothing will happen to them, no matter what. Somehow the guys pulling the puppetstrings have to be identified and accused of blasphemy against the Prophet and the Quran, then we can leave the rest to the Pakistani mobs.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby shiv » 28 Jul 2015 06:54

What will happen if we launch a raid against 3 nearby terrorist training camps across the border?

How about explosions at or near Hafiz Saeed public functions?

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby kulhari » 28 Jul 2015 06:58

Pakis are trying to push us into an escalatory spin of terrorism. They realise that soon India shall turn the corner -- in economic and military development and overcome 10 year dark rule. After this happens pakis will not even dream to counter India so "catch India early" is perhaps the motto.

Any military conflict now would reduce paki from zeero to zero but would slow down India from 99 to 95. They perhaps think this as big gain.

Remember the attack was planned to be very horrific and was initially directed on Army but redirected to Dinanagar on last moment. and yes this is open challenge for us to respond which we must do at a time and place of our choosing....

Steps we must take immediately:
1. We must increase security at schools and hospitals
2. Target drug cartel without mercy.
3. Increase deployment in border areas.
4. Deploy smerch and take out a known terrorist camp - lets say at Muridke to set the example right but only when the mota piglet is visiting the camp.
Last edited by kulhari on 28 Jul 2015 07:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby A_Gupta » 28 Jul 2015 06:59

shiv wrote:All Indians who show puzzlement at Pakistani actions make me sad and angry because they are all brainwashed enough to expect team behaviour from a crowd.


Mine is not puzzlement in the sense you're writing. You can't understand a rabid dog with hydrophobia - how it feels impelled to attack - unless you get the disease too. Oh, there is intellectual understanding of the sort "the rabies virus, to make sure it is propagated, has evolved to infect the dog's brain in such a way that it will attack, so the virus finds new victims". What is possible is like the intellectual understanding of the state of drunkness without ever having touched any alcohol or other intoxicant. All I am saying that you can't enter the mind of these Pakistanis without first becoming insane yourself.

Sorry if it is off-topic.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby disha » 28 Jul 2015 07:01

shiv wrote:Intel agencies have been crying themselves hoarse for the past couple of weeks. I admit that single attacks may not be preventable, but unless some elements in Pakistan feel pain there will be no change. Pakistan is heading towards a demographic explosion of young, Islamized and angry men. In India we will howl and cry that young people need education and employment. Imagine if India's elite really behaved like the stereotypical and totally mythical "Brahmin Bania" who lives for himself and does not give a damn for slavery, poverty or unemployment. Now that is exactly the behaviour that Pakistanis are showing. As long as we imagine that they need to, or will behave like Indians we will never "understand" Pakistan.


There may be p-sec elements and media pimps who may want to think that bakistan is rational., but I do think that the Indian govenment understands bakistan very well and also knows very well that bakistan is a irrational and irresponsible state.

The only question is how to respond. From maun mohan's thumb sucking we will send only doosras vs. vajpayee's aar-paar ki ladai vs. Modi's blow hot blow cold response is indicative of a schizophrenic Indian response.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Anujan » 28 Jul 2015 07:01

We dont even need to take out terror camps and such.

Just post on social media all the Motormas and Zam Zam cola that their Badmashes and ten percentis indulge in when traveling abroad. Their own Pious Abduls will Qadrify them.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby shaun » 28 Jul 2015 07:12

SBajwa wrote:I have 9 images forwarded to me by my relatives in Gurdaspur that show 5 dead terrorists! How do I share them?

Where are the pics of roasted pigs??

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby shiv » 28 Jul 2015 07:16

A_Gupta wrote: All I am saying that you can't enter the mind of these Pakistanis without first becoming insane yourself.

Sorry if it is off-topic.


No. Not OT. But I must disagree and post a counterpoint and it is exactly that counterpoint that I would like people to understand - I have failed in making people understand but I will keep trying.

As long as we see all Pakistanis or "all of Pakistan" as a whole entity, a group, we cannot understand. You need to see them as parts that display different types of behaviour. I can use your rabid dog analogy but let me use a family analogy

Imagine a family of mother father and daughters who behave odd. Imagine that the father is raping his daughters and has the cooperation of his alcoholic and drug addict wife. The daughters may be intimidated into behaving abnormally if they are seen at all while the husband may seem normal and the wife hidden from view. This is just an example. The whole family can be declared "mad" or "eccentric" if taken as a group. As individuals each person's behaviour exactly explains his or her situation. Each person is dependent on the other in some way and is simultaneously forcing the other to behave in a particular way. Left to themselves teh daughters may not want to be raped; the mother may need medical help. It could be mainly the father who has reached a comfortable situation that can continue only so long as he appears normal and the women in the house are not seen much and are kept dependent on him and intimidated. Declaring the whole family as crazy is a form of blinkers. Missing the trees for the forest.

I can use the same analogy with the rabid dog. The dog's digestive, cardiac, respiratory systems are normal, but the central nervous system is misbehaving. Killing that system will cure the dog but will kill it as well. But we cannot spare the dog saying that apart from brain everything else is fine.

Pakistan should not be seen as "Pakistan the nation" or "Pakistan the group", but as a collection of vested interests. the army and Islamists are both vested interests. Neither group is really interested in things like public health, education, human development, maternal mortality etc. The people on the ground may want all that - they are not all mad. But the army and Islamists need to be hit. If we hit them "innocent people" will also take a hit but there is nothing that can be done. this is not a time to flinch.

Unfortunately most Indians cannot understand leadership that does not give a damn for the deaths and human suffering of its people. We care more for Pakistanis welfare than the Paki leadership and that leadership are perfectly rational in understanding our behaviour and using it to their advantage.
Last edited by shiv on 28 Jul 2015 07:20, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Gagan » 28 Jul 2015 07:18

Just the projected demographics of pakistan in the next decade, and the fact that it is and will remain a basket case is frightful.

India can't expect unfettered growth and prosperity and have an unstable neighbourhood to our west.

In the last 68 years, India has tried everything - peace, trade, talks both direct and track 2, even war, although the wars were sort of limited in some sense - no aar paar ki ladai yet.

Pakistan has outlived its lifespan and its beaker of crimes has long overflown (Paap ka ghada bhar gaya hai). I fear that blow hot, blow cold, neutralizing haramzadas inside india is not going to cut it.
True offensive defence simply has to be practiced. I dunno how useful it will be to go after the worker ants.
The terror leadership and the ISI officials MUST be taken to task.
Ultimately, in a set number of years, there should be no Pakistan in its current form.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby disha » 28 Jul 2015 07:28

^^ Agree with Shiv saar and I myself have pointed out earlier that there are three operatives at play here - Allah, America and Army. And with above explanation it can be stated that

Bakistan is a geographical construct where three powers Allah, America and Army interesting in preserving their self are at play. Sometimes all three are at cross-purposes to each other but most of the time they are in bed with each other to ensure that their interests are perpetuated.


Only way this troika will be defeated is to defeat the locally controlling authority - that is the Bakistani Army and hurt their foot soldiers - that is their mullahs.

To start with, BSF should be told to retaliate at will on their choosing. All the baki posts from Rajasthan to Punjab to J&K should be on fire for the next 2-3 days. India should not call of NSA talks., in fact while NSA talks are in progress - the baki army should start moaning and groaning to their baki stooge.

All the baki army types and their bachas - past, present and future should start feeling the heat.

That is the short term strategy and should be done after the monsoon session in parliament.

In the mid-term and long-term, somehow America needs to be contained.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby asgkhan » 28 Jul 2015 07:40

Why can't we have

1. Sponsor rival terror groups which can occassionally carry out subversive activites in Rawalpindi and Lahore.
2. Set up a response system where for one Indian casualty, we send 20 Pakis to 4-nicate with their 72 dates.
3. I would rather spend the money on Balochistan than Afghanistan.

Simple steps but would pay off huge. In 72, all we did was support Mukti Bahini and the pukes went nuts and lost 1/2 their country.

Now we have the money, influence and a system willing to test the above scenario.

What is stopping us.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby disha » 28 Jul 2015 07:47

asgkhan wrote:Why can't we have

1. Sponsor rival terror groups which can occassionally carry out subversive activites in Rawalpindi and Lahore.
2. Set up a response system where for one Indian casualty, we send 20 Pakis to 4-nicate with their 72 dates.
3. I would rather spend the money on Balochistan than Afghanistan.

Simple steps but would pay off huge. In 72, all we did was support Mukti Bahini and the pukes went nuts and lost 1/2 their country.

Now we have the money, influence and a system willing to test the above scenario.

What is stopping us.


For item #1., effective on ground coordination and plausible deniability. This is a generational effort.

For item #2., one needs multiple targets. Where are you going to get 20 bakis "who matter" (no do not send their piss-poor to death - nobody cares for them and bakis will be thankful for doing that) - most of the bakis who matter are concentrated in rawalpindi-lawhore., basically the heart land of pakjab.

For item #3., Balochistan needs to be independent. This basically means that effort needs to be spent in breaking up bakistan.

However how do you break up bakistan under the umbrella of nuclear, america and china?

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Gagan » 28 Jul 2015 07:49

I have a few theories / thoughts on what should be done. Unfortunately BRF is openly and widely available to all.
I would love to hear what others think, the deepest thoughts.
Can there be a fully protected - invitation onlee topic? Like the ones the breepers have?

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby shiv » 28 Jul 2015 08:04

disha wrote:
Bakistan is a geographical construct where three powers Allah, America and Army interesting in preserving their self are at play. Sometimes all three are at cross-purposes to each other but most of the time they are in bed with each other to ensure that their interests are perpetuated.


Perfect. The manner in which the Saudis are protected by the US while far lesser nations are demonized is an example of the way in which the concept of rational nation-state carries no weight when it comes to US interests.

We on BRF curse Nehru but we are ourselves weighed down by a Nehruvian world-view in which we see states like Pakistan as fellow nation states who are supposed to be like us but are showing "inexplicable" behaviour.

The answers should be obvious. All countries are not rational nation states but may be criminal enterprises that have been given the respectable title "nation" and a place in the UN gen assembly or even UNSC. When a despotic criminal enterprise behaves in a way that is advantageous to a particular international order - it is supported and praised as a respectable member of the comity of nations. KSA and Pakistan are both like that. When a nation state opposes that order it is condemned to be attacked.

In short nations are not judged by their behaviour but by the value they give to others. The country can be a despotic misogynist Islamist state but if it gives value to some states - they will support it and deny that there is a problem. We have to look at what value Pakistan gives us.

By saying Pakistani are mad or Pakistan is absurd we are simply ignoring the fact that there are complex dynamics at work that cause this behaviour and we simply must punish those who hurt us. It is laziness if we do not attempt to understand those dynamics and make every Indian aware of what we are dealing with. If that means punishing innocents as well it cannot be helped. if Hamas hides among civilians, civilians get killed.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby rohitvats » 28 Jul 2015 08:43

One important thing to understand is that this region is heavily militarized.

Gurdaspur to Pathankot is under 60 km and both have heavy concentration of army. More importantly, the formations are spread right across the arc and not only in large cantonments. Not to forget that Punjab Police is one of the most heavily armed state police force in India.

So, any terrorist activity like this one, after initial contact will be pinned down as troops congregate into the attack zone and pin down the terrorists. As happened in this case where overwhelming firepower was immediately summoned to the area.

On top of it, Dinanagar is good 15 km from the border as the crow flies. It would've taken lot of valuable resources and planning to make militants reach out this far in hinterland. And while loss of even a single life is deplorable, as terrorists activities involving such highly trained and heavily equipped manpower goes, this one was a failure.

This act is similar to one which happened in Jammu. And militants has relatively more success there in terms of casualties of security personnel.

Pakistan is better placed to undertake high value and high optics ops in J&K than these areas - such activities require lot of effort from Pakistan and use of Grade A manpower+resources.

Question is, why are they doing this? This is something I am not able to put my finger on.

May be, going by the quality of manpower used and the stores they were carrying, the objectives were much grander but in each case, Pakistanis under-estimated the kind of risk such operations would face and we've managed to neutralize the situation before it becomes bigger. But that is only one angle. It still does not explain the WHY part.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby A_Gupta » 28 Jul 2015 08:51

shiv wrote:Perfect. The manner in which the Saudis are protected by the US while far lesser nations are demonized is an example of the way in which the concept of rational nation-state carries no weight when it comes to US interests.


Saudi Arabia, I would contend, is understandable. If I sit for three days and do absolutely nothing but read the Quran, Saudi Arabia's ideology is understandable. I did that exercise long ago. More below.

We on BRF curse Nehru but we are ourselves weighed down by a Nehruvian world-view in which we see states like Pakistan as fellow nation states who are supposed to be like us but are showing "inexplicable" behaviour.


I don't accept that. The idea that "Pakistan is supposed to behave like us" vanished long ago.

The answers should be obvious. All countries are not rational nation states but may be criminal enterprises that have been given the respectable title "nation" and a place in the UN gen assembly or even UNSC.


They may be criminal enterprises and not nation states; but even many criminal enterprises are rational. They have an internal logic and rules they follow. Certainly the Mafia, the Yakuza, and other such all around the world are comprehensible.


When a despotic criminal enterprise behaves in a way that is advantageous to a particular international order - it is supported and praised as a respectable member of the comity of nations. KSA and Pakistan are both like that. When a nation state opposes that order it is condemned to be attacked.


That is different from whether they are rational or not.

In short nations are not judged by their behaviour but by the value they give to others. The country can be a despotic misogynist Islamist state but if it gives value to some states - they will support it and deny that there is a problem. We have to look at what value Pakistan gives us.


To your last sentence, the answer is none, nothing. No disagreement with "nations are not judged by their behavior but by the value they give to others". But a madman may also give value to others.

By saying Pakistani are mad or Pakistan is absurd we are simply ignoring the fact that there are complex dynamics at work that cause this behaviour and we simply must punish those who hurt us.


Yes, we must put down the dogs that bite us, whether they are trained attack dogs, or whether they are driven mad by rabies; it is the behavior, not the motive that must drive our response. We don't really have to understand it at a deep level either -- simply shoot the dog.

It is laziness if we do not attempt to understand those dynamics and make every Indian aware of what we are dealing with. If that means punishing innocents as well it cannot be helped. if Hamas hides among civilians, civilians get killed.


The following is IMO.

A certain American web-philosopher (sorry, I forget his name) wrote that since Allah can do anything, anytime, for any reason, Islamists have lost the constraint of causality. I'm adding to what he wrote. It is not all Islamists; but certainly the ones from Pakistan. - they strive because they have the faith that any time "then a miracle happens". The faithfool just keep tossing the Allah dice, thinking that it will go their way. Their version of history is full of such, where a faithful is decapitated in combat but keeps fighting till the enemy city falls; where 600 people defeat 600,000, and so on - because there are no limits on what Allah can do. In Ramayana, Samudra tells Rama, it is in my nature to be deep and uncrossable; the best I can do is not wash away a causeway that you build to cross to Lanka. But it would be blasphemy to so constrain Allah, even by the laws of nature that Allah Himself created.

While there are layers upon layers on top of this, this is the core from which the Pakistani jihadis and the jihadi puppet-masters operate. It is not, e.g., as per CCFair, "to do nothing is to be defeated". It is not, e.g., fight but survive to fight another day and call that victory. All those are undeniably there, but they are symptoms and rationalizations. The root irrationality which drives their behavior is this escape from causality. This is quite orthogonal to whether they behave like a nation-state or a criminal gang, or take up aspects of both. It is orthogonal to whether the 3.5 friends prop them up or not. It is a delusional world in which their Islamicity entitles them to escape the laws of cause and effect. You cannot enter that world without first being delusional.

The Indian people need understand that they're dealing with a dog that bites them, what is happening in the dog's mind doesn't really matter; the dog needs to be muzzled or terminated.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby A_Gupta » 28 Jul 2015 08:59

rohitvats wrote:May be, going by the quality of manpower used and the stores they were carrying, the objectives were much grander but in each case, Pakistanis under-estimated the kind of risk such operations would face and we've managed to neutralize the situation before it becomes bigger. But that is only one angle. It still does not explain the WHY part.


The easy explanation is that the Pakistani Army's pet jihadis are chomping at the bit, and without some action, some strike at India, they might slip the leash and move to outfits that are not under the Army's thumb.

I'm sure the Pakistani Army Generals and such are busy snapping up land that will become much more valuable if the CPEC is built, and of course, feeding off the crumbs of the contracts that the Chinese are awarding to the Chinese to build the CPEC and such. But for the Chinese money to flow, they need internal calm. This attack gives the jihadi outfits some action; and the Indian response will further solidify Pakistani public support for the Army, helping them squash political opposition and the outfits that they don't control.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby partha » 28 Jul 2015 09:01

I agree with Minhaz Merchant when he says Pakis committed a tactical mistake (I hope Govt makes them realize that) by attacking Punjab. This will prompt (hopefully) India to punish Pakis in Pakjab. That won't be pretty considering Pakjab is the only (relatively speaking) peaceful province in Pakistan. But I have to disagree with him on "internationalizing" issues. It'll be a slippery slope and that's exactly what Pakis have been attempting to do since day 1, 1947. Internationalizing Indo-Pak disputes will give 3.5 friends of Pakis an opening to meddle in our problems. That's best avoided.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Anujan » 28 Jul 2015 09:01

They are trying to revive the Khalistan movement. A few attacks in Punjab and then trawl for recruits.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby sum » 28 Jul 2015 09:08

^^ They didnt find any Sikhs to do this and had to use the usual faithfool for it?

How will that help in any way to revive Khalistan? Will only make the average sikh angrier towards Pak!

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby wig » 28 Jul 2015 09:16

Special Forces of Army from Samba finished the operation
Special Forces of the Army, known as para commandos, were airlifted from Samba to Dinanagar in Gurdaspur district of Punjab to finish off the operation and eliminate all three militants, who had taken positions inside the police station and were resorting to indiscriminate firing targeting the police personnel. Jammu and Kashmir Police also sent two bullet-proof bunkers, known as ‘Rakshak’ vehicles, to help Punjab Police in carrying out search operations.
Train traffic on Jalandhar-Jammu section and vehicular movement on Pathankot-Jammu National Highway, which was temporarily suspended from Punjab, was restored after some hours while BSF has sounded high alert along the International Border even as police conducted massive searches in the areas surrounding the borders to ensure that the militants didn’t sneak into this side.
Director General of Police (DGP) K Rajendra told the Excelsior that Jammu and Kashmir Police immediately rushed two bullet-proof ‘Rakshak’ vehicles (bunkers) to Dinanagar in Gurdaspur district of Punjab from Kathua on the requisition of their Punjab counterparts, which didn’t have such vehicles as the neighbouring State was not facing any major terror threat for past about two decades now.
“We were in constant touch with Punjab Police to assist them in whatever possible way we could. As soon as we received the request for bullet-proof bunkers, we dispatched them to Dinanagar from Kathua,’’ Rajendra said, adding the bunkers proved very useful for Punjab in entering inside the police station and carrying out operation against the militants.
Jammu and Kashmir Police has been very successfully using the bullet-proof bunkers in the operations against the terrorists.
Official sources said the Special Forces, known as para commandos of Army, were airlifted from Samba to Dinanagar, to finish off the operation and eliminate the militants, who had taken positions inside the police station after killing seven persons including SP (Detectives) Baljit Singh, three Home Guard jawans and three civilians and injuring 15 others, who included police personnel and civilians.
Sources said the Special Forces were airlifted on requisition as they were well trained in eliminating the militants by carrying out commando action.
“Three columns of Special Forces were airlifted from Samba. They reached Dinanagar around this noon, gained entry inside the police station and executed their task, very tactfully and successfully within an hour. The Special Forces returned to their bases after killing all three militants this evening without suffering any casualties,’’ sources said.
They added that the Special Forces of the Army had earlier also been used to eliminate the militants hiding inside sensitive installations as they were well trained in the commando actions.
“Apart from Special Forces, 9 Corps of the Army also dispatched its Bomb Disposal Squads from its headquarters of Yol Cantonment to defuse five powerful Improvised Explosive Devices (IEDs) planted by the militants along Pathankot-Amritsar track before striking at Dinanagar police station,’’ sources said, adding that the Squads defused the IEDs successfully, sanitized the track along with Railways police and restored train traffic.
The areas of Jammu, Samba and Kathua districts fall under 9 Corps of the Army, headquarters at Yol Cantonment in Himachal Pradesh.
IGP Railways MS Salaria told the Excelsior that the Railways Police immediately swung into action after getting the reports of the terror attack and planting of the IEDs along Pathankot-Amritsar track, bordering Jammu-Pathankot section. He said entire men and machinery at the disposal of three GRPs at Jammu, Katra and Srinagar were pressed into service to look for any suspicious devices.
Sources said train traffic on Jalandhar-Jammu section, which was temporarily suspended in the morning after terror attacks and reports of IEDs having been fitted at Pathankot, was restored within an hour after it was discovered that the IEDs had been planted on Pathankot-Amritsar section and not Pathankot-Jalandhar route, which is taken by all trains reaching Jammu from New Delhi and other destinations. Even Amritsar-Jammu train is taking Jalandhar route for past few days due to some technical problems.
Vehicular movement on Pathankot-Jammu National Highway was also suspended in the morning from Punjab side after the terror attack. However, traffic on Jammu-Kathua road continued uninterruptedly. Traffic on Pathankot-Jammu highway was also restored after about two hours of blockade as scene of gun fighting shifted to Dinanagar, about 14 kilometers from Pathankot.
According to sources, the BSF was maintaining high alert all along the International Border from Lakhanpur to Akhnoor. Police personnel of all three border districts including Jammu, Samba and Kathua conducted massive search operation in the border areas and the National Highway of Jammu-Pathankot to ensure that the militants didn’t manage to sneak into this side.
However, sources said, there were no tell tale signs along the International Border in Jammu sector to show that the militants had infiltrated from this side of the border.
“Nevertheless, we are not taking any chances. Entire police of three districts in the border areas was out on patrolling. Local people have also been involved and they were cooperating in keeping vigil on the strangers,’’ they added.
A Punjab Roadways bus bearing registration No. 9569 PB06G, which was targeted by the militants at Dinanagar before striking at the police station, had also left from Bamyal (Kathua) for Amritsar early this morning. The bus plies daily between Bamyal-Amritsar. Though seven persons were injured in the bus, there was no report of any of them hailing from Kathua

http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/special-f ... operation/

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby devesh » 28 Jul 2015 09:18

One message on twitter said that it took 12 hours to capture/kill 3 Jihadis. If true, it requires a relook at the tactics. Unless there are special circumstances which made it that long. If yes, then those circumstances need to be addressed IMO.

This could be distraction on the western front, while something greater boils quietly in the East or South.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby wig » 28 Jul 2015 09:23

Op frequently revised as Punjab cops wanted to lead
http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/punjab ... 12273.html
The final manoeuvre to nab the Lashkar-e-Taiba militants engaged in today’s encounter had to be rescheduled on several occasions with the Punjab Police top brass repeatedly denying permission to the Army to take control of the entire operation.
The first helicopter carrying scores of Army men landed at the PAU regional station grounds at 9.43 am after an SOS was sent to the Tibri cantonment officials by DC Abhinav Trikha. The DC, after being given feedback about the latest development by senior police officers around 8.30 am, held hectic confabulations with other administration officers at his camp office.
However, after getting feedback from SSP Gurpreet Singh Toor, the DC sensed that the situation had the potential to go out of hand. At 8.43 am he took a final call. The Army had to be called in. A phone call was placed to the Tibri cantonment officials and the Army was asked to reach Dinanagar as “some terrorists had taken control of a police station in Dinanagar.”
Receiving the information, the Army went on an overdrive. The first of nearly half a dozen choppers landed exactly an hour after the DC had requested the Army to be in a “state of preparedness.” The soldiers were driven from the PAU campus in trucks to the police station, 10 km away.
An hour later, the venue was surrounded by nearly 150 Army men. A senior officer confided that initially the Army officers took a measure of what exactly was going on. Later, around 11.50 am, a senior Army officer requested the Punjab Police to hand over the operation to them. However, he was asked to wait with a senior officer telling him that only DGP Sumedh Singh Saini could take such a decision. The cops were on their toes waiting for their boss to arrive. Finally, Saini reached the operation site around 1 pm - more than seven hours after the militants had fired the first bullet in the city at 5.30 am.
Later, he met the DC, IG (border range) Ishwar Chander Sharma, DIG Arun Kumar Mittal, SSPs of Gurdaspur, Pathankot and Majitha and other senior officials.
“We decided to engage them with intermittent fire till they run out of ammunition. However, when we were ready to take the operation to another level, news filtered in that the terrorists might be ‘human bombs’. Once again we had to change our plans,” he disclosed. At this time, the Army once again asked the police to let them take control. However, this time police officers told them that all intricacies of raiding the old DSP’s office, where the militants had taken refuge, had been worked out and that only the police would be undertaking this operation. Even the 140-odd NSG and SPG commandoes were kept at bay.
Some senior officers had veered around to the view that the Army should be handed over the reigns. However, due to some inexplicable reason, which was never made public, the Army was again asked to wait. A team of the BSF was pulled out from duty from the border and placed at the disposal of the police. Meanwhile, the Army personnel did not sit idle and launched a massive search operation.


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