Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attack

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby A_Gupta » 30 Jul 2015 02:00

ramana wrote:In dealing with nations what matters is intelligence and not evidence.
Evidence among nations is another version of shaming game little kids play.

TSP has moved beyond shaming.
Its mad dog that needs to be muzzled or killed. Its choice.
We don't need to know what a mad dog thinks or if it has a mind.


Agreed.

Some percentage of the populace wants the shaming game to be played.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby krishna_krishna » 30 Jul 2015 02:00

Mr.Bector I thank my lucky star that such advisors are outside 7RCR enjoying their puddina parathas in their white sonatas not inside. Insanity is doing same mistake over and over and expecting different outcome.So after wonderful OODA cycle and some packi villager claiming they were their relative and dossiergiri and going to world has not worked in past and will not any time in future.

If we want a strong bharat varsha we should be able to do disapproriate damage (could be covert) so people should know times have changed.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby SwamyG » 30 Jul 2015 02:01

http://gulfnews.com/news/asia/india/dae ... -1.1558390

Daesh outfit is being connected with the attack.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Harpal Bector » 30 Jul 2015 02:03

Ramana,

I have not seen anything that says that DGP Saini ordered anything like what you are suggesting.

The reports I have read are that the PAPC tried to resolve the situation with minimal force, essentially waiting it out and depleting the attackers of bullets. The PAPC was hoping to get some of these people alive, but the appropriate flash bang type grenades and armor were either unavailable or ineffective. That is why no attacker could be arrested.

I also think this may be why the Army and the NSG and the BSF were told to stand down by DGP Saini, the RR Cdo came with a Carl Gustav. I think the PAPC were hoping to get someone alive and if the Army went in - it was less likely that anyone would be arrested.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby sanjaykumar » 30 Jul 2015 02:06

Okay let us suppose the rigmarole has some sense.

However long India takes to do whatever it does, that is the time that the Grandmaster is after.

I ask again, why?

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby ramana » 30 Jul 2015 02:07

HB, There was a Gaurav Sawant article on Punjab Police that said that.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby A_Gupta » 30 Jul 2015 02:11

Harpal Bector wrote:There is no flaw - this situation has been designed in this way - by the Grandmaster of Suhrawardy Street. The only objective here is to evaluate how long the various pieces of the strategic response cycle take. Without clear evidence linking things to Pakistan, the likelihood of any hostile action towards Pakistan is low. The thought process that surrounds hostile action however will occur on its natural timescale.


I'm sorry, but knowing the response time against Pakistan when the perpetrators (in principle, by what you're arguing) could be Chinese or ISIS or someone else -- that is rather valueless. The response time is useful if India knows that it is Pakistan, and Pakistan can be sure that India knows that it is Pakistan, and then Pakistan gets some information about Indian reaction.

For your grandmaster scenario to be meaningful, India must know by some non-direct-evidence means that it is Pakistan. On the other hand, you say, in the absence of direct evidence, India does not know.

Also, Pakistan could not know beforehand that there would be ~10 casualties rather than ~100 or ~1000. Certainly the severity of what happened plays into response time. If you call the cops and you report a minor fender-bender or a major accident, do you expect the response time to be the same? What are you going to learn about response times from that?

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby prahaar » 30 Jul 2015 02:13

Harpal Bector ji, your proposition is that for an attack of a particular nature the new government response time will help the Grandmaster a system characteristic information. But this assumes that the response time is predictable, which is deliberately likely to be fudged. If it is specifically about the minimum response time, then it makes some sense but only theoretically. Each attack is perceived differently and the political arm will act based on the perception. By perception, it need not be limited to public perception. So all this RTT estimation sounds quite unreliable to base future actions.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Harpal Bector » 30 Jul 2015 02:14

Arre bhai - It is up to the PM do decide what to do - not up to you or me. We weren't elected by the people - Modiji was! Yeh unki zimmedari hain.

The only thing that security services can do is provide the best possible picture that can be gathered to him and if the evidence is not available to say that.

He will make his decision on what information is presented and what quality it is. Generally no rational person uses low quality information as a guide in critical matters. Normally conjectures of the sort bantered about here are not presented unless there is strong evidence to that effect.

Beyond that once he has seen the information, he will ask for options, then at that time the area experts from relevant services can offer their advice. Again there is no room for ill-informed bakwas. I am told this PM is a very "tight" place with a zero tolerance policy for people who bullshit.

If you have conjectures you can give them to Dishaji and see what happens.

If you have material evidence that is verifiable of Pakistani involvement, why just me, my entire khandaan, my sasuralwale, my biradari, my doodhwala, my paanwaala and even my bhatija's unborn son who is still just a few square centimeters of ultrasound photograph will all run to the PMO and show it to him immediately.

@Ramana,

Oh, sorry I must have missed that article. Gaurav is a good reporter. Saini sahab must have had his reasons.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby krishna_krishna » 30 Jul 2015 02:19

Because not everyone is interested in dossiergiri of "evdience" like it is a police investigation. This is much more higher game and concrete intelligence is all that is needed not necessarily evidence which includes FIR report , affidavits from relatives ityadi, ityadi.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Harpal Bector » 30 Jul 2015 02:26

@sanjaykumar

If they know the timescale, they can calibrate their options. For example, if I know that you take 10 days to get back at me for something, then I know that in 1-10 days time I need to have a defensive measure in place to deflect your blow. if I can put that into action right now then there is little to worry about, but if not then I need to do something to make sure I have that kind of capability.

@a_gupta,

I think the attackers came with limited resource in terms of rounds and weapons. That - coupled with the site of the attack would automatically keep the casualty count low. That may be an additional control in the system.

If the provocation leaves enough crumbs that lead to Pakistan but not enough to clinch the deal, the response time becomes highly informative for the Pakistanis. It tells them how long they can get away with doing things under the radar. If one is non-subcontinental, then response time is a good way to calibrate the real depth of tensions between the two countries. If the response time is short and India looks ready to act on little/no hard information, one can conclude the real pressure to act inside India (and consequently the tensions in the subcontinent) are really high. If the time is long, and India gathers evidence, then the situation is actually cool.

@prahaar,
Yes you are right but what other way is there to get any timescale out of the system. A test has to be run, the grasp over the dynamics it provides may be limited but something is better than nothing? one could argue it like that.

@krishna_krishna

Dossiergiri is one response option. It is upto the PM to do what he sees fit. The job of the security services is to provide him with all tools necessary. Response options are the domain of area experts not internet chatrooms.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby sanjaykumar » 30 Jul 2015 02:31

I see, perhaps you have met the mark. I will leave you to debate some of the other bulls hitters.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby UlanBatori » 30 Jul 2015 02:35

Meanwhile across the border in Pakjab..

Lashkar-e-Jhangvi is known for targeting Shiites in Sunni-majority Pakistan, including a series of bombings in early 2013 that left more than 160 people dead in Balochistan province. Ishaq was detained by authorities soon after those attacks.
In the clash with police early Wednesday, the motorcycle-riding attackers freed Ishaq and two of his sons in the ambush, but police responded with gunfire that killed the terrorist leader, both of his sons and 12 others, authorities said.
The other militants fled the scene, according to the Counter Terrorism Department. Six police officials were injured, it said. Police had taken Ishaq and his two sons to another prison to assist in identifying confiscated arms and explosives, authorities said. The ambush was reported to have taken place around 3 a.m., during the return journey.


'N-counter pest-e-sha'eed' at its finest, hain? Terrists attack on motorcycles and FREED sh1t#1 and sh1tlets 1 & 2. How? Just sort-of waved guns around? THEN.. brave polis like Ferguson and Baltimore Polis opened up, killing all 3 releasees AND 12 OTHERS..? AND left the militants to escape? How many motorcycles were there? 20? But I believe this, 400%. Pak polis never lie. Or, how many of the 12 others were polis I wonder. No comment.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby krishna_krishna » 30 Jul 2015 02:36

@krishna_krishna

Dossiergiri is one response option. It is upto the PM to do what he sees fit. The job of the security services is to provide him with all tools necessary. Response options are the domain of area experts not internet chatrooms.[/quote]

I am not saying what he should do and not do , he has more expert at his disposal for that. Having said that my response was in you stupid comment about asking common man to go to PM with dossiers. I again thank that such people who suggest such idiocracy are enjoying lal batty sitting outside and not in that group advising the mantriji. I wish no more comments after this. Shubham Astu.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby ramana » 30 Jul 2015 02:49

Pressure was on MMS to act after 26/11/2008 as ABV had initiated Operation Parakaram after Lok Sabha attack on 13/12/2001.


NaMo does not have such pressures build up as PP shot the mad terrorists dogs.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby KLNMurthy » 30 Jul 2015 03:04

A_Gupta wrote:...

As I asked earlier, if Modi-Doval are going to do something covert, how would we know, how could they tell us? I didn't get a meaningful answer.

In the absence of open hostilities, all you can do is trust and be patient. If you have no trust, that is your prerogative; but you're not going to get any satisfaction anyway.


In fact, we do have meaningful answers, though we won't like them.

Modi has said plainly, on multiple occasions, that he doesn't believe in disclosing all the steps he would take against Pakistan. If he does act, presumably his targets would know, but we wouldn't.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Tuvaluan » 30 Jul 2015 03:10

SwamyG wrote:Daesh outfit is being connected with the attack.


Rather convenient timing for this "connection" given the bullpoop being peddled by Bruce Riedel and his ilk about IS targeting India.

Regarding all the nonsense about "grandmaster of suhrawardy measuring response times" -- this govt. has stated that it will use options that may not be overt. unless it can be explained what these response times buy for pakistan when the response is deniable and covert, this "response times" stuff is nonsense.

It tells them how long the (pakis) can get away with doing things under the radar.


Assuming that "under the radar" implies "below the threshold of overt war", that puts the "response time" above 10 years then, because paki proxy wars have always been "under the radar". There was no need for the grandmaster of strategery in pakistan to conduct this terror attack to figure that out. :roll:

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby gashish » 30 Jul 2015 03:30

Lets stop "glorifying" baki terrorists as Grandmasters. the only g(r)andmastergiri they have shown is in fooling their own aam abduls by turning them into cannon fodder at spectacular rate over decades. The talk of smoking-gun-evidence and immaculate legalese language is meaningful in transactions between two civilised entitites and that too in peaceful setting. Here we have low intensity war waged by a rabid dog on civilised nation..latter doesn't need any dossier, but just a toilet paper to clean the shit in the neighborhood.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Vayutuvan » 30 Jul 2015 04:00

KLNMurthy wrote:Modi has said plainly, on multiple occasions, that he doesn't believe in disclosing all the steps he would take against Pakistan.

Good observation sire. In this instance also PM Modi nor his lootinents who are directly affected by the incident - RM Parrikar and MEA Swaraj - said anything.

I would take it as a positive sign. Let us keep the Pakistani (masters, grand masters, grand^100 masters (*) ) guessing to the last minute as to what the retribution is going to be.

(*): That expression was on maverick's blog WRT sri sri Ravishankar - sri^infinity or some such nonsense. mavericks in general, and this maverick in particular by being a member of the set mavericks, make sense sometimes. Unfortunately this was not one of those times.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby A_Gupta » 30 Jul 2015 05:13

KLNMurthy wrote:In fact, we do have meaningful answers, though we won't like them.

Modi has said plainly, on multiple occasions, that he doesn't believe in disclosing all the steps he would take against Pakistan. If he does act, presumably his targets would know, but we wouldn't.


What's not to like?

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby A_Gupta » 30 Jul 2015 05:14

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/o ... 478203.ece
"Government may implicate Pakistan in Gurdaspur attack"
Union Home Minister Rajnath Singh is likely to tell Parliament on Thursday that the three alleged militants who killed seven people and were gunned down later on by the Punjab Police in Dinanagar, Gurdaspur, came from Pakistan after breaching a fence on the Ravi. This will be the first time in the past three days when the Union government will be formally issuing a statement in which it would name Pakistan.

In a departure from the past, the government all this while refrained from naming Pakistan at the very outset and waited for the operation and investigations to get over before coming to any conclusion.


However, in the Pakistani media:

http://www.nyoooz.com/chandigarh/162753 ... initiative
Summary: Two days after the Gurdaspur terror attack, the Pakistan media on Wednesday cast serious doubts on India’s assertion that terrorists involved in the Gurdaspur terror attack originated from Pakistan, but was unequivocal in calling the latest incident “another rock in the way of the road to peace”. “Whoever was responsible for the attack, it will have automatically fuelled the trust deficit that already exists, and further bedevil any chance of peace between the two states,” said The Express Tribune editorial. “Already, the prime ministerial meeting in Ufa, Russia, appears to have been eclipsed,” said an editorial in the mass circulation daily.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Harpal Bector » 30 Jul 2015 05:27

Regarding all the nonsense about "grandmaster of suhrawardy measuring response times" -- this govt. has stated that it will use options that may not be overt. unless it can be explained what these response times buy for pakistan when the response is deniable and covert, this "response times" stuff is nonsense.


Arre bhaisahab, even if Modiji launches DRDOs most secret super dooper Krishna_Krishna missile which can fly in circles for many years and then drop like a thunderbolt on anyone that Modiji chooses, the Grandmaster will just run his clock until the missile lands and that is the response time.

Assuming that "under the radar" implies "below the threshold of overt war", that puts the "response time" above 10 years then, because paki proxy wars have always been "under the radar". There was no need for the grandmaster of strategery in pakistan to conduct this terror attack to figure that out. :roll:


But the Modivadis and all their teetar buddies had told everyone - me included - that Modiji was going to give muh-tod jawab toh any such shenanigans. I completely believed them, and I dutifully told every Pakistani I met in Dubai and Sharjah during the cricket match what I was told and told them to stop fixing matches otherwise Modiji will get mad and beat them up. I even got into a fight with the waiter at the Delhi Durbar and though I was only complaining about the ridiculous price of butter chicken, I ended my exchange with the words "haan haan ab Modiji aaye hain, tab dekhna kaise tumhare butter or chicken alagh hote hain...saale behan***!!!"

But chances are the Pakistanis didn't believe me. They said this is all just talk - let's find out what Modiji is really capable of.

Now even the least competent person will be able to handle a situation if they know who attacked them, but what will even the biggest stud do if the identity of the attacker is not known? hain? that is the question that the Grandmaster has posed. That is the time he is measuring.

Now if one becomes too chankian earthashatter type in ones approach and doesn't give the Grandmaster the answer he is seeking - then he will simply ask the question again.

Naturally the most significant issue before Pakistan is will Modiji move the Indian nuclear posture in ways that they don't like. For example all that talk of "First Use" that emerged during the election and then was watered down with Gandhiji's name when the heat got too much for even the people who started that debate. So the Grandmaster doesn't have a choice, he has to keep poking the bull with a hot iron until the Bharaaaaaaa^n(n>>10)ti bull does something he can measure.

Modiji can do anything, it doesn't matter what it is - as long as it is linked to the Gurdaspur attack - the Grandmaster will have the information he is looking for. Perhaps this would all go better for people here if I translated my urdu copy of "Karla ki Kartootein..." (i.e. my version of Russia House by le Carre) into Sanskrit for the experts here.

I don't know how to explain to people here that India now faces a formidable opponent.

To show the immaturity of the discussion here just consider one point - people is still bringing up Cold Start like it is somehow relevant. When my ammi fourth cousin twice removed from MEA was sitting in the bleachers watching the Azm-e-Nau exercises four years ago, he told me - Kayani has many counter moves to Cold Start now if it is implemented the houbara will not run the IBG will get chewed up for no reason- Abhimanyu will be sacrificed in vain - the vyuha will remain intact. I wanted to tell Patel sahab immediately but when I emailed him I got no reply, I think he was not checking his email. So maybe a good place to begin thinking is that Cold Start is archival.

All the option-khors on this forum can start there and see where their imagination goes.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby shiv » 30 Jul 2015 05:42

Harpal Bector wrote:Lets play it the way any rational person from Ulanbator would play it.

I want to know the following:

1) Who were these terrorists? What were their names?
2) Who were their mothers and fathers?
3) Are their mothers and fathers Pakistani?
4) Who told these boys to do what they did?
5) Does this person live in Pakistan?

as correctly as possible.

If you can tell me this with real evidence to back it up, I will personally run to 7RCR and tell the PM myself.


This is excellent information to write on a piece of paper and shove up one's own backside. What would anyone do with this info that is more useful than that? You have 3 heavily armed terrorists who come and murder people and you want information that a father would seek while looking for a groom for his daughter. This belongs in the 90th percentile of the more stupid posts I have seen on this thread

Responding to this gentleman who claims that an Su 30 flew over Lahore and scared the Pakis is always fraught with the risk of more rubbish being dumped on the forum. MiG 25s regularly flew over Pakistan. Wonder why that did not stop 26/11. Maybe because we do not know the names and addresses of the eligible boys who did 26/11? We got Ajmal Kasab's name, address, Gotra and nakshatra. What has that achieved other than allowing us to fiddle with our willy wonkas?

What a waste of time.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby sum » 30 Jul 2015 05:50

To show the immaturity of the discussion here just consider one point - people is still bringing up Cold Start like it is somehow relevant. When my ammi fourth cousin twice removed from MEA was sitting in the bleachers watching the Azm-e-Nau exercises four years ago, he told me - Kayani has many counter moves to Cold Start now if it is implemented the houbara will not run the IBG will get chewed up for no reason- Abhimanyu will be sacrificed in vain - the vyuha will remain intact. I wanted to tell Patel sahab immediately but when I emailed him I got no reply, I think he was not checking his email. So maybe a good place to begin thinking is that Cold Start is archival.

Saar, why the assumption that this TSP-ian change in strategy didnt create any counter moves by the IA?

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby krishna_krishna » 30 Jul 2015 05:53

So you are saying that our govermenet have suddenly become namards like pandu havaldars having special hector butter chicken at Bukhara or pudina parathas under their lal tubelight horrible a/c'd cars in dilli heat.

Oops the white sonata's outside 7RCR have super duper mizzle tachniqui powered by Dubai based pindi chana gas effect which keeps them super cool so that they are content with keeping time check for response from our pm for granmaster gogo from across the birader.

Oh may be the hector biraders across the border which are macho than anything, do not care shit about cold start which got usual brown salwar syndrome even about hearing it and during kiyanahi regime started dreaming about 72 houris and shoot and scoot james bond type escape after firing their super "harpabector" rocket which is mini nuke and Indians (Being namards like MMS gang does not matter if the PM is different)
Let Pglets ive in their lala land, if they thing they they have therir way they would not even wait for a sec attack desh. We have bigger dandas , cold start is one of them. But for red light pandu all he cares about is parathas and dinner at Bukhara and keep mms type leaders confused with dossiers that is all they care and want.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby shiv » 30 Jul 2015 06:04

It is the sophistication of the trolling that is remarkable.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Vayutuvan » 30 Jul 2015 06:07

Harpal Bector saab: that was uncalled for on my part. Here my formal apology.
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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby disha » 30 Jul 2015 06:09

Dear Harpal'ji., you do miss entire forests for trees. But that is a topic for a different discussion.

What you are saying is simply this., the GaandMaster shitting in bakistan is trying to test Modi Sarkar's resolve and trying to calibrate how much time it will take for Modi Sarkar to respond. And the GM will continue to do this till the GM sees or feels the resolve.

This is not news. This was gamed here the moment 2014 electoral results came through. That Modi will be tested. How and when - it was unknown. But tested he will be by Bakistan.

Inviting Nawaaz was the first pre-emptive opening by Modi Sarkaar. In the escalation matrix - the diplomatic tete-de-tete from PM level has fallen down to NSA level and that too after much prodding. In effect, Bakistan is being diplomatically bypassed. Other than the 3.5 father's bakistan wants to hang on to - it is diplomatically isolated (of course there is support from ummah brothers, but that is a different topic). A major diplomatic loss for Bakistan.

Then there was the Borders going hot and the BSF response have created a no-go area there for Bakistan. Another loss for Bakistan. Keeping the borders hot is now counter productive. Cannot do that.

Then the hot summer in J&K. With all due respect, the only hot summer in J&K happening now and compared to previous years is the weather and of course some pigs have to digest the fact that the Komunal BJP is in power. They are hot and harried. J&K is loss. In fact now POK and Baltistan and NWFP is under discussion as illegal occupation of Bakistan. Chinese are more worried about their stock market and avoiding a decadal recession instead of running a corridor through POK!

Then the Gurdaspur Terror attack happens.

And you come across and call our own defense minister as "tweetia" (rhyming with a slur word) and basically castigate him as an idiot.

Maybe., just maybe - what the RM was tweeting was a red rag. Waved precisely to see how Bakis respond. Not an idiotic tweet, but a "test" tweet. Here the GandMaster (GM) is being tested. And it took GM precisely 3 months to respond.

Now Modi Sarkar knows the capability of bakis and to the extent they can go with plausible deniability. And further it can gauge the temperature in general within India on the need to retaliate. From its own constituency. In fact, in today's Yakub mercy petition - the lawyer Grover grovels out this information "The attack in Gurdaspur happened because MHA was busy with Teesta". That is, the dogs and pimps of the ISI sitting in India are trying to bring this attack front and clear and trying to push Modi Sarkar into "showing its resolve".

If you noticed, Modi Sarkar did not say anything other than letting continue the NSA talk. What happens in NSA talks will happen and we will know in due time.

So coming to the point or two:

1. Modi Sarkaar is under no undue pressure to retaliate. This does not mean Jingoes cannot dream on how Modi sarkar can retaliate. This are different things.

2. Modi Sarkaar may have already retaliated!! Only thing is that the GandMaster does not know or knows but cannot tell. The former is even more interesting, Modi Sarkar can keep on retaliating and raise the bar slowly and can gauge the intelligence level of the GandMaster. When the GandMaster squeals., it is callibrated and known at what pain point the GM squeals.

And my corollary is that two can play the callibration game. One thing that is missed here and something that you can shed light on - is India fighting bakistan or is India fighting America via its proxy bakistan?

PS: And yes., you need to go easy on slur words like "tweetia" for the defense min. At the end of the day - inspite of lal battis on your ambys - you were *just a babu*.
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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby krishna_krishna » 30 Jul 2015 06:13

:rotfl: ^^^ Excellanto Dishaji

Harpal Bector
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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Harpal Bector » 30 Jul 2015 06:53

@vayutuvan, @krishna_krishna, @disha

People don't get so hot, this whole thing is just starting up now. If you get so worked up now - then what will you do later.

Tweetia is old Delhi terminology. I didn't invent it - I did pass it on to the next deserving individual. Guilty as charged.

I am willing to believe you guys that Modiji is super better at this security stuff than all those people that came before him. I infact believe everything you say.

But Pakistanis will not believe you or me. I think this Grandmaster is looking for a timescale and the provocations will continue until he gets his answer.

If Modiji is under no pressure as you point out - then fine - the only reasonable inference that the Grandmaster can draw is that this provocation scale is not sufficient to trigger any action.

That will automatically set the stage for the next level provocation. And it will continue until an observable response is detected.

AFAIK - this is the way the game works. I can't be sure of all the rules but some of them are pretty clear.

All this may have retaliated etc... yeh toh Manmohan Singh ke time mey bhi sunne ko milta tha.. Modiji was supposed to be a departure from that! kya hua - kuch plan badal gaya kya? I ask because I rely on experts like you to tell me.

When I hear all this - I get a sense you are all demoralized and don't want to play.

@shiv,

Absolutely correct, the whole purpose of writing a detailed criminal investigation report is to shove it up ones own backside because whatever happens is dictated solely by the PMs desire to seek the good will of a small vocal minority of Jingos. I'll be sure to tell the DG NIA this wisdom when I see him next.

@sum
No one in the IA talks about Cold Start. Those words are only used in places like this.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby A_Gupta » 30 Jul 2015 07:22

shiv wrote:It is the sophistication of the trolling that is remarkable.


le Carré and all!

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby habal » 30 Jul 2015 07:25

dear harpal, you give way too much credit to pakistan and an imaginary grandmaster sitting there. Pakistan is a status-quo weak state barely surviving from handout to handout. It does not have the wherewithal to suffer deslusions of some such grandmaster nor have the resources to carry out his little plans and games.

Grandmasters on the other hand may be present at Va, culinary lane where they have resources, time, and inputs for some grandmasterbatergiri.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby A_Gupta » 30 Jul 2015 07:42

This type of scenario is running in my head. No resemblance to any characters real or imaginary.

BSF man: "Sir, sir, the Pakistanis are firing on us!"

HB: "Really, what is the evidence? That noise and those flashes could be fire crackers. Show me a bullet, man!"

(Some minutes later):

BSF man: "Sir, here, I got shot in the arm, the buillet is still in there"

HB: "Wait a minute". (pulls a bunch of forms out of his desk) "What is your father's name?"

BSF man: "Jarnail Singh, sir!"

HB: (penning it down) "What is your mother's name?"

BSF man: "Mandeep Kaur, sir!"

HB: "What is your name?"

BSF man: "Sir, Beant Singh, sir!"

HB: "Where were you born?"

BSF man: "Gurdaspur, sir, but why..."

HB: "I am compiling the evidence, you see. I am establishing by incontrovertible evidence that you are an Indian hit by a Pakistani bullet."

"Oh, orderly! Summon a surgeon, please! We must extract the bullet and establish that it is Pakistani. You there, get the Chinese ambassador on the line, you other there, get the American ambassador on the line 2!"

Orderly: "Sir, but...."

HB: "If this bullet is American or Chinese, we must establish that this batch of bullet was shipped by one of these two countries to Pakistan only. You know, it could have been pilfered from the Americans by Afghans in Kabul, and then our case collapses with no evidence! This is serious".

HB: (to himself) "this is simply taking too long, somebody somewhere is setting his watch by this, or is it his vernier calipers, I never remember!"

HB: (kindly, to Beant Singh) - "sit down, sit down, while the surgeon gets here. Now, can you prove that you didn't shoot yourself?"

-----
I know, not very funny. But I see the source of our problem. It is not really Pakistan. It is the Inspector Clouseaus that hold the GOI in their grip. If Mr. Ashwini Saini was like that, he would not have believed there was a bomb on the tracks until it actually exploded. I mean, how do you know it is a bomb? You think Mr. Saini has ever in his life seen a bomb before? I'm sure he knew the stationmaster would kick his butt all the way from Gurdaspur to Mr HB's Sonata in Delhi if he made an unsubstantiated claim that there was a bomb on the tracks. It might have been a huge wad of chewing gum, for all he knew. The right thing to do would have been to wait for the huge "boom" and the flash of flame, and the smoke, and then too, to be accurate, he should have said "something exploded" rather than "there was a bomb". Things other than bombs explode, you know, like gas cylinders.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby shiv » 30 Jul 2015 08:08

A_Gupta wrote:-----
I know, not very funny. But I see the source of our problem. It is not really Pakistan. It is the Inspector Clouseaus that hold the GOI in their grip. If Mr. Ashwini Saini was like that, he would not have believed there was a bomb on the tracks until it actually exploded. I mean, how do you know it is a bomb? You think Mr. Saini has ever in his life seen a bomb before? I'm sure he knew the stationmaster would kick his butt all the way from Gurdaspur to Mr HB's Sonata in Delhi if he made an unsubstantiated claim that there was a bomb on the tracks. It might have been a huge wad of chewing gum, for all he knew. The right thing to do would have been to wait for the huge "boom" and the flash of flame, and the smoke, and then too, to be accurate, he should have said "something exploded" rather than "there was a bomb". Things other than bombs explode, you know, like gas cylinders.

If Bector's argument is representative of our babus then the problem is really among us. The uncertainty. The sloth. The hesitation. The excuse making. The indecisiveness and the sheer style of being a follower who supplicates and supplies inputs rather than a leader and believes that more data can be a substitute for decision making.

Meanwhile:
http://idrw.org/gurdaspur-attack-any-in ... more-70104
While noting that the cumulative evidence against Pakistan was ‘overwhelming,’ Sawhney remarked, “None of this evidence has any real relevance”. He said that what we are doing now was taking the evidence and keeping it before the accused, asking him to judge himself. He will never punish himself,” Sawhney said. “There is no independent adjudicatory authority in the world before whom we can take this evidence and say please punish Pakistan or please punish those who are responsible for this in Pakistan. No country in the world is interested in what is happening between India and Pakistan except when their security interest or their national interest is involved. Eventually, India will have to learn to fight its own wars and its own battles or it will be left to suffer from a permanent campaign of attrition, which Pak has launched against it,” Sawhney said


Here is something that Kalam said
Image

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby vasu raya » 30 Jul 2015 08:23

A_Gupta's distinction between intelligence and evidence is so central dealing with this two headed monster, aka the bad sharif and the civvy sharif, intelligence is enough for punishing bad sharif and covert actions can be sanctioned based on that. Overt actions gets into evidence gathering and is long drawn, for the most part is just nautanki as 26/11 court drama in TSP has proved. The response time they are interested in is the Overt one, if at all, as on the covert side they do not have a mai baap to approach. Both options should be pursued.

The ethnicity is usually backed by DNA, we just need to identify the majority of these strains that can be attributed to TSP and ofcourse the missing heat shield "phenotype" data. we can also open a database called MUJRA that stores all the dead terrorists DNA data from now on, rivaling NABARD.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby CRamS » 30 Jul 2015 08:38

Harpal BectorJi,

Please, spare us your crap. You are talking like a suave TSP ISI RAPE (probably you are one). The only sensible point you make, and known to all of us, although you rub it in, in a condescending tone, is that India cannot kick TSP arse no matter its MMS or ModiJi/Doval at the helm; India's military capabilities don't change overnight. But India does have non military options which for a host of reasons even ModiJi is unable to execute, for e.g, please read Minhaz Merchant's recipe.

But that said, we need not given any of these mathematical QED type proofs of TSP involvement that you demand. Its like some nut cases demanding proof that Neil Armstron landed on the moon, or claim Mossad undertook 9/11 and reject every other bit of info on who actually undertook 9/11, or western rags like Finacial Times and TSP claiming that RSS was behind 26/11 etc. In their perverted worldview, NASA just doctored bogus images and showed them to the world. How will you dispute that? Likewise, you and TSP demanding evidence despite mountains of overwhelming evidence is just to mock India, nothing else. TSP can do that, but Indians also doing that hurts (and you are not alone).

Go find yourself a home in some Paki forum, I am sure you will be much more appreciated.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby ramana » 30 Jul 2015 08:42

DGP Saini said they are Pakis. Because of his record good enough for all.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Vayutuvan » 30 Jul 2015 09:08

...
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 30 Jul 2015 18:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Multatuli » 30 Jul 2015 09:20

Finding definite material evidence of Pakistans involvement is irrelevant. It's an exercise in futility. India should do a thorough investigation and analysis of this (and every other) terrorist attack, not so much to present Packees or 'the world' with evidence, but rather to figure out the Packee terror machine, so India can better protect herself. No one in Packeeland or elsewhere gives a damn about evidence collected by India or if Packees are behind the terror attacks. We really have to look at the larger picture:

1. The Paki military/RAPE have brainwashed their population into hating India/Hindu's.

2. They openly collect funds and recruit men for anti-Indian terrorist organizations in Pakistan. This happens with full state support.

3. Their reason for existence is harming/destroying India.

These are good enough reasons to constantly hit the Packees through overt and covert action. In fact we need a long-term blueprint (master plan) for the disintegration (destruction) of Pakeeland, and the above overt and covert actions must be an integrated part of that master plan.

The covert actions need to be sustained, a continuous series of disasters in Packeeland.

Also, there is no point in hitting the lowly jihadi's. I am not against it per se, it's just that action against the lowly jihadi's should have low priority for the present. The targets must be those in charge of Packeeland: TSPA officers and the RAPE, their homes, work places and places of recreation should not be safe. The Packees whine about being insecure vis-à-vis India, this is a ruse of course to explain away their perennial hostility and criminality toward India, well, India should make this insecurity very real for the Packee army brass and RAPE.

I would recommend working towards a Syria like situation in the heartland of Packeeland (Punjab) to cull the overpopulation, leading to the final collapse.

An open war with Packeeland should be avoided, although India needs to be ready for one. Let the 'non-state actors' in the Packee heartland do the work for us. Only at the final stage, when Packeeland has almost collapsed should India move in to liberate Packeeland.

And finally, we should hit the Packees (covertly) just for fun, no other reason is required. They committed so many crimes against India and we owe them so much back payment, that no justification is necessary. Packees say Hindus are 'small hearted', mean, malicious. Okay, towards Packees we must be precisely that.


johneeG wrote (page 9):

It seems to me that cornerstone of Pakistan's national defense is Indian stupidity. 4 wars and Lahore was not occupied even once by Bhaarath!!!

I think Bhaarath has bad leaders and advisors. Bhaarath has able to survive due to sheer size. On the other hand, Pakistan has been able to punch above its weight. Lets give their leaders(military or political) their due. Pakistanis have been able to punch above their weight because of Indian apathy(or laziness or connivance) and pakistani bluffing.

Pakistanis bluff by projecting strength when they are infact very weak. They prepare for 4 week war localized war. And put all their resources in it. They have no plans of continuing the war beyond 4-6 week period. They have no plans of fighting anywhere in Pakjab. In Pakjab, they have a simple defensive strategy: canals to slow down the tanks. Pakistanis start their wars away from Pakjab in Kashmir or Rajasthan on the Bhaarath side.

Pakistan will immediately lose if
- war is taken to Pakjab particularly Lahore.
- war is fought for 2-3 months.

Given so many constraints, I think Pakistani leaders have to be commended that Pakistan has survived so long and fought 4 wars against much much bigger country like Bhaarath. And Bhaarath's leaders are either fools or fooling us(Bhaarathiyas). Either these leaders are incompetent or there malafide intent.

Just imagine a reverse scenario. If Pakistan had all the advantages that Bhaarath had:
- suppose Pakistan is more than 2 times bigger than Bhaarath,
- suppose all tier 1 cities of Bhaarath were under 100 km from Pakistan,
- suppose Pakistan had a bigger economy and military budget than Bhaarath,
- suppose Pakistan had the ability to project soft power all over the world,
- suppose Bhaarath's credibility was in tatters.

Then, Pakistan would have finished the job in less than 10 yrs. So, cornerstone of Pakistan's national security is Indian stupidity. This stupidity is explained away as morality or nuclear blackmail by Pakistan.

I don't see anyone but Bhaarath's leaders to blame for this scenario.

Bhaarath should have a simple strategy:
- By 2025, Pakistan should be broken up. All the non-Pakjab provinces want to secede. Pakjab does not want to secede because they rule Pakistan. The secessionist movements are going very strong. But, they need outside overt military support. At some point, Bhaarath will have to go into Pakjab occupy Lahore and other principle cities of Pakjab allowing other provinces of Pakistan to secede.
- By 2035, all the states in the region of Pakistan must become the client states of Bhaarath. Then, Bhaarat can use its soft power and hard power to ghar-wapas them. Its quite doable.


Yes, the 'political leadership' of India has failed to admit and explain to the Indian people what Packeeland is. They made many mistakes with respect to Packeeland. And that is why Packeeland still exists and attacks India.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby rohitvats » 30 Jul 2015 10:05

Harpal Bector wrote:<SNIP>

I am willing to believe you guys that Modiji is super better at this security stuff than all those people that came before him. I infact believe everything you say.

But Pakistanis will not believe you or me. I think this Grandmaster is looking for a timescale and the provocations will continue until he gets his answer.

If Modiji is under no pressure as you point out - then fine - the only reasonable inference that the Grandmaster can draw is that this provocation scale is not sufficient to trigger any action.

That will automatically set the stage for the next level provocation. And it will continue until an observable response is detected.

AFAIK - this is the way the game works. I can't be sure of all the rules but some of them are pretty clear.

All this may have retaliated etc... yeh toh Manmohan Singh ke time mey bhi sunne ko milta tha.. Modiji was supposed to be a departure from that! kya hua - kuch plan badal gaya kya? I ask because I rely on experts like you to tell me.

When I hear all this - I get a sense you are all demoralized and don't want to play.

<SNIP>


Well, the condescending tone about NM + other decision makers and talk of evidence apart, this is absolutely bang on target.

I have been wondering since NM government came into power as to what will Pakistanis do to understand what has changed with NM in power. And how will the India retaliate under this new dispensation.

IMO, they tried this in Kashmir when a high value target like Army establishment in Uri was attacked. The terrorists were a highly trained bunch by all accounts (on the lines of Special Forces) which had specifically infiltrated across the border for this task using a very arduous route in peak winter. And they were pretty heavily armed along with sophisticated guidance equipment. But those attacks never gave the required result and terrorists were taken down. Maybe, the Pakistanis realized that this template will not work in J&K because everything there can be put down to 'business as usual' and clubbed with ongoing terrorist activity in J&K. And NM government will be under no-pressure to retaliate ‘out-of-way’ to prove its credentials.

By simply reverting to old policy of plastering LOC with artillery and blowing PA forward posts/militant staging areas to smithereens, GOI signaled its intent and policy on reacting to such issues.

Second attempt was the border firing south of LOC in Jammu sector - in this case, they got the new government’s response, and got it good. That is one lesson they would've learnt and assimilated.

Third attempt was similar incursion in Jammu by a bunch of heavily armed terrorists where they attacked army camp in Sambha in March along with attack in Kathua. IMO, attacking targets, whether civilian or army in J&K, ultimately means that we can restrict the response to this region. In scale, intensity and timing. And which I think is happening.

Pakistanis squealing about aggressive Indian posture on LOC and helicopters based operations (which might have been in relation to elimination of jehadi scum related to beheading on our side) points to this direction.

This Gurdaspur attack seems to be a test to judge response of the government to a non-linear event. As I wrote sometime back, I was simply not able to figure out objective of this attack which IMO, would have required considerable investment by Pakistan. Then militants could’ve attacked army cantonment in Gurdaspur (Tibri Cantt) if they wanted high optics. They could’ve simply entered any one the village en-route from border and created absolute mayhem.

This act seems like an attempt to test the government response to a ‘non-regular’ terrorist activity where the temperature – as terrorist attack go - has been deliberately kept a bit low.

A good response from our side would be to send across a message that any terrorist attack – irrespective of its intensity – will invite response meant to inflict maximum damage. This will simply reduce the stupid notion of calibrated terrorist activity. Just create two categories – for something like Parliament attack, we go to war. Period. For anything below that, we will bust your balls.


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