Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attack

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Karan M » 31 Jul 2015 18:25

Harpal Bector wrote:Dear Karan M,

I think we will just have to agree to disagree on the comparison issue.


The facts speak for themselves so an agree to disagree on this board won't count for much as versus the justified pride the Punjab Police will have on their performance, the proper chain of command and the manner in which they got the job done. The GOI's clear involvement and prompt directions throughout.

The buffoonery extended to then GOI which was hopelessly outmatched by the attack and the then NSA and the entire apparatus ran around like headless chickens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasan_Gafoor
Hasan Gafoor was indicted in Pradhan commission report on lack of leadership during the Mumbai terror attacks.
http://www.newsinsight.net/AnewNSA.aspx#page=page-1
Narayanan was the biggest gainer from the scandalous inadequacies of the UPA government's first home minister, Shivraj Patil, when he assumed the role of intelligence czar by having both the IB and RAW report to him. Alongwith Patil he should have been roasted for 26/ 11, but escaped.

Generally speaking I will attempt to steer clear of contentious issues, I hope you will do the same.


If you don't write obnoxious posts, posters won't intercede. Not particularly hard to understand.

Yes, there are other ways is this way that much worse than what is proposed by others? The notion of unacceptable costs and uncertain gain is clouding the perception of this option. In the context of this SG(F) option, what can be done to make the costs of this option seem just as acceptable as that of other options? is there some technology that might be critical to achieving a level of acceptability?


It is worse because till this date no way has been found by all sorts of well funded agencies worldwide to achieve this sort of capability and reliably deploy it. The risks however when it fails can also be high when attempts are made to capture folks at high risk and then make this sort of effort a routine one with risks taken by those who cannot even deploy firepower to protect their own selves. Sort of like the disastrous run into the Golden Temple with zero firepower by the Para guys with every terrorist firing at them. For what purpose.

This sort of ivory tower stuff reminds me of people who ask "why didn't they shoot him in the foot" when discussing why the SF shot a terrorist in actual combat conditions.

Why should one proceed with the SG(F) option when it does not give India much apart from the "naming/shaming" part and can be offset with better investments in Humint assets on the other side of the border & also ratchet up capabilities for dissuasion.

That was my reading as well. So with that in mind - what link can one make between the LeT and the Gurdaspur attackers that will be considered "overwhelming"? That currently remains a bit of a gray area.


There is no evidence we can present that Pakistan will agree to. As to what links are there, Shri Rajnath Singhs comments and those of others clearly indicate the actual folks in the current GOI know what is what. Its another matter as to what form our dissuasion or vengeance should take as versus yesteryears dossier diplomacy.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Harpal Bector » 31 Jul 2015 18:26

The biggest threat to any state is public exposure of involvement in terrorism. During the recent bombing in the Kabul Blue Zone, the Afghan intelligence community identified the ISI official who orchestrated it but then deliberately only released his first name. The implied threat here was stop or be exposed. No dossier was exchanged it was done directly on the media stage.

Dear Tuvaluan,

Actually Pakistan has been encouraging extremist activity in India since Op Gibraltar in 1965. All those times, the number of PA officers involved in this kind of activity was a small fraction of the army. Most of the officers still adhered to BIA era standards of behavior.

>> "What are these changes in the Pakistan army today that make it more dangerous than it was a decade ago?"

I feel the number of officers who have been exposed to this way of thinking is much higher than at any time in the past. It is now a truly system-wide thing, not localized to a small group in one branch of one service. IMO this has created a kind of college of strategic thought around this kind of behavior. The PA now has these tools refined and ready-to-use at all times. They do not need to scramble around for missing pieces at the last minute.

As their situation becomes steadily more desperate, on account of growing economic disparity between India and Pakistan, they will be driven to act out in more extreme ways.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby A_Gupta » 31 Jul 2015 18:30

Harpal Bector wrote:The biggest threat to any state is public exposure of involvement in terrorism. During the recent bombing in the Kabul Blue Zone, the Afghan intelligence community identified the ISI official who orchestrated it but then deliberately only released his first name. The implied threat here was stop or be exposed. No dossier was exchanged it was done directly on the media stage.


And what are the identifiable negative consequences to Pakistan as a result of this public exposure?
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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Karan M » 31 Jul 2015 18:31

Harpal Bector wrote:The biggest threat to any state is public exposure of involvement in terrorism. During the recent bombing in the Kabul Blue Zone, the Afghan intelligence community identified the ISI official who orchestrated it but then deliberately only released his first name. The implied threat here was stop or be exposed. No dossier was exchanged it was done directly on the media stage.


LOL

As if India has not done enough public exposure of Pakistan over terrorism and as if proceeding on this path it won't become a joke itself for the amount of complaining it has done as versus making Pakistan complain non stop for actual reasons (As versus their cooked up stories of Indian TV corrupting the momeen by telling them of blasphemous Hindu practises).

The international community doesn't give a shit for India if India can't handle its own affairs.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Karan M » 31 Jul 2015 18:33

Harpal Bector wrote:Actually Pakistan has been encouraging extremist activity in India since Op Gibraltar in 1965. All those times, the number of PA officers involved in this kind of activity was a small fraction of the army. Most of the officers still adhered to BIA era standards of behavior.


Right up there in terms of veracity and accuracy as "Pakistan Army is mostly enlightened and moderate as versus the eevil Taliban". Saurabh Kalia, Ajay Ahuja and co were apparently assaulted by people personally trained by Musharraf presumably.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Karan M » 31 Jul 2015 18:36

A_Gupta wrote:
Harpal Bector wrote:The biggest threat to any state is public exposure of involvement in terrorism. During the recent bombing in the Kabul Blue Zone, the Afghan intelligence community identified the ISI official who orchestrated it but then deliberately only released his first name. The implied threat here was stop or be exposed. No dossier was exchanged it was done directly on the media stage.


And what are the identifiable negative consequences to Pakistan as a result of this public exposure?


New TV shows in the Khan will have a couple of folks from the ISI as baddies planning to attack the Indoos and some CIA guy will stop the plot and prevent nookelear war.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Picklu » 31 Jul 2015 18:36

Gagan wrote:
Nokia phone has another feature that Jernails in suharwardy street don't want.



Close but no ciger. Now think of the word "suarworthy". Ah perfect in all modesty, if I am allowed to say so.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Harpal Bector » 31 Jul 2015 18:39

Karan M wrote: It is worse because till this date no way has been found by all sorts of well funded agencies worldwide to achieve this sort of capability and reliably deploy it.


So because no one else has succeeded in these goals - India cannot succeed where others have failed?

The risks however when it fails can also be high when attempts are made to capture folks at high risk and then make this sort of effort a routine one with risks taken by those who cannot even deploy firepower to protect their own selves.


How exactly this capture-alive capability is deployed is probably best left to the experts. As with any capability there will be right ways to deploy it and wrong ways.

Why should one proceed with the SG(F) option when it does not give India much apart from the "naming/shaming" part and can be offset with better investments in Humint assets on the other side of the border & also ratchet up capabilities for dissuasion.


What if there was no funding or manpower crunch and you could do both things?

There is no evidence we can present that Pakistan will agree to. As to what links are there, Shri Rajnath Singhs comments and those of others clearly indicate the actual folks in the current GOI know what is what.


I agree the Pakistanis will reject such information out of hand. But is there any "evidence" of a link between the LeT and attackers that even the most ordinary person with no previous knowledge of anything will find compelling?

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Harpal Bector » 31 Jul 2015 18:41

Arre bhai, I am just trying to see if there is any way to use a scalpel instead of a sledgehammer.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Tuvaluan » 31 Jul 2015 18:42

Harpal Bector wrote:Actually Pakistan has been encouraging extremist activity in India since Op Gibraltar in 1965. All those times, the number of PA officers involved in this kind of activity was a small fraction of the army. Most of the officers still adhered to BIA era standards of behavior.


<POOF>
So how small was this fraction? Who figured this out? Perhaps I should gently point out that the genocide in Bangladesh is publicly documented to be the handiwork of PA officers and it happened in the early 1970s. That rubbishes your "answer" as utter bullsh!t like everything else you have said on this thread so far.

I feel the number of officers who have been exposed to this way of thinking is much higher than at any time in the past. It is now a truly system-wide thing, not localized to a small group in one branch of one service. IMO this has created a kind of college of strategic thought around this kind of behavior. The PA now has these tools refined and ready-to-use at all times. They do not need to scramble around for missing pieces at the last minute.


I asked you "what are the changes in the pakistani army now compared to a decade ago makes them more dangerous?" -- the above "answer" is just vacuous horsesh!t, not to mention utterly hilarious in its cretin factor. So you think the PA army behavior after 1965 is now more prevalent in the paki army now across all sections? So all of them are equally capable of conducting rape and genocide like they did in 1971? and this makes them more strategerically dangerous to India how exactly? (that is a rhetorical question....<POOF> Easy there, this is a good discussion. No need for aggravation).

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Tuvaluan » 31 Jul 2015 18:45

Harpal Bector wrote:I agree the Pakistanis will reject such information out of hand. But is there any "evidence" of a link between the LeT and attackers that even the most ordinary person with no previous knowledge of anything will find compelling?


Any reason why anyone here should think of such nonsense when this guy has failed to explain until now how exactly he is going to use such "evidence" to convince the average clueless person...to do what exactly....assuming, for argument's sake, that such "evidence" can be pulled out from one of his orifices using the time-tested orifice-extraction technique.
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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Karan M » 31 Jul 2015 18:47

Harpal Bector wrote:So because no one else has succeeded in these goals - India cannot succeed where others have failed?


Is India a guinea pig to try unrealistic high risk activities with dubious payoffs?

How exactly this capture-alive capability is deployed is probably best left to the experts. As with any capability there will be right ways to deploy it and wrong ways.


No clear answer on why we need this capability.

What if there was no funding or manpower crunch and you could do both things?


Find better things to do with the funding.

I agree the Pakistanis will reject such information out of hand. But is there any "evidence" of a link between the LeT and attackers that even the most ordinary person with no previous knowledge of anything will find compelling?


Must be dozens - suggest you contact the Urdu jihadi press and parse out the links if you wish to satisfy your curiousity.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Harpal Bector » 31 Jul 2015 18:48

A_Gupta wrote: And what are the identifiable negative consequences to Pakistan as a result of this public exposure?


It is difficult to quantify the exact impacts on Pakistan but there is a visible direct psychological pressure on named individuals and their as yet unnamed colleagues.

The current machinery is set up to commit acts of fealty and betrayal. The thing is no one wants to take public responsibility for bad acts - everyone wants to be seen as a good guy. Exposure as a bad guy makes it likely that the machine might have to take you out to protect itself.

If there is a reliable way to break the deniability element - internal friction should jam the machine?

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Karan M » 31 Jul 2015 18:49

Harpal Bector wrote:Arre bhai, I am just trying to see if there is any way to use a scalpel instead of a sledgehammer.


That would be to train response forces to a high standard in a centralized facility year on year.

And look towards developing scalpels for dissuasion within TSP then.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Tuvaluan » 31 Jul 2015 18:54

Harpal Bector wrote:The current machinery is set up to commit acts of fealty and betrayal. The thing is no one wants to take public responsibility for bad acts - everyone wants to be seen as a good guy. Exposure as a bad guy makes it likely that the machine might have to take you out to protect itself.


Just a general observation on this statement -- this is the same "rogue ISI" logic that the pakistani army uses on the rest of the planet to deny their involvement in global terrorism.

And now <POOF> here is making the very same arguments about the pakistani army under the pretense of working in India's interests, and trying to snow everyone on this board.

So what can be the reason this paki-like poster would want to talk about the paki army as a benign entity that has internal divisions that can be exploited. Like this bit:

The current machinery is set up to commit acts of fealty and betrayal. The thing is no one wants to take public responsibility for bad acts - everyone wants to be seen as a good guy.


This is the whole paki army leadership's behavior in fact, but this bugger here is pretending that it is just some subset of the paki army, and not the entire paki military leadership. The real question that needs to be asked is here is: what is this guy up to with all this disinformation directed at forum members.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Harpal Bector » 31 Jul 2015 18:56

Dear Karan M,

The way I see it - some risk has to be taken to get the hostages out and suppress the fidayeen. Incremental risks will lead to incremental rewards - but without risks there will no rewards.

I am not questioning why - I merely know that the NSA asked for it and it could not be delivered. Why NSA wanted it - is something for him to explain - my guess is leverage - whether at the NSA talks or for the Modi visit or whatever other reason. I am only asking if is needed how can SG(F) be created to achieve it.

One part of the answer is having the right experts, India has plenty of those. The other part is a non-lethal weapons capability. Another part is psychological and cyber etc.. etc..

Rather than trying to find answers to big questions and I am breaking the problem into smaller chunks that can be solved.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Tuvaluan » 31 Jul 2015 19:00

If there is a reliable way to break the deniability element - internal friction should jam the machine?


That is the wrong question to ask -- breaking the deniability element provides nothing India can use to nail pakistan -- the legal route is useless. Going down the same useless road for the N+1-th time will not yield any more results than it did the first N times.

On the other hand, what India can use is the fact that all the internal terrorist groups in pakistan provide huge scope for India to conduct deniable acts and take down their assets. But the problem would be if there are those in the Indian side that buy the story that the americans usually sell -- that there are "good" and "bad" sections of the paki army and ISI, when that is not the case.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Karan M » 31 Jul 2015 19:01

Harpal Bector wrote:
A_Gupta wrote: And what are the identifiable negative consequences to Pakistan as a result of this public exposure?


It is difficult to quantify the exact impacts on Pakistan but there is a visible direct psychological pressure on named individuals and their as yet unnamed colleagues.


So for psychological pressure on unnamed people whom you don't know about, India should send its troops into harms way trying to take rabid animals alive.

The current machinery is set up to commit acts of fealty and betrayal. The thing is no one wants to take public responsibility for bad acts - everyone wants to be seen as a good guy. Exposure as a bad guy makes it likely that the machine might have to take you out to protect itself.

If there is a reliable way to break the deniability element - internal friction should jam the machine?


ROTFL, here we have the Hafeez types bragging about attacks in India and you want to whitewash them and present them as simpering types. Oh man. The hilarity.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Harpal Bector » 31 Jul 2015 19:04

Tuvaluan wrote: Just a general observation on this statement -- this is the same "rogue ISI" logic that the pakistani army uses on the rest of the planet to deny their involvement in global terrorism.


Yes that is the narrative they put out - I am asking what can be done to make this pretense unsustainable in a schedulable fashion.

It seems to me that core of this posture is a sense of deniability which extends all the way up from the fidayeen to the ISI-controller to the ISI-chief to the PA general staff.

If one breaks the deniability - one breaks the machine. No?

Also no nuclear thresholds are approached. No PA publication has talked about "exposure" of PA involvement in terrorism as a reason to go to the "last resort".

Upon exposure the only option left to them will be to disavow their own and that will create internal friction that will cause the machine to seize.

That is the strategy I am trying to explore here.

Yes it is complicated, but it is a scalpel instead of a sledgehammer. So it makes for an easier sell in any resource constrained discussion. On the forum discussions don't have to be resources constrained - so everything seems a little skewed.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Karan M » 31 Jul 2015 19:07

Harpal Bector wrote:Dear Karan M,

The way I see it - some risk has to be taken to get the hostages out and suppress the fidayeen. Incremental risks will lead to incremental rewards - but without risks there will no rewards.


That's what the NSG does. They kill the terrorists and get the hostages out. FYI. The Para SF and SG also train for it.

I am not questioning why - I merely know that the NSA asked for it and it could not be delivered. Why NSA wanted it - is something for him to explain - my guess is leverage - whether at the NSA talks or for the Modi visit or whatever other reason. I am only asking if is needed how can SG(F) be created to achieve it.


The NSA asked for it but was mature enough to given the Punjab police the freedom to close the issue as they saw fit.

One part of the answer is having the right experts, India has plenty of those. The other part is a non-lethal weapons capability. Another part is psychological and cyber etc.. etc..


Yet, our response in many incidents has been ham handed. Lets get the basics right first as versus chasing all sorts of stuff.

Rather than trying to find answers to big questions and I am breaking the problem into smaller chunks that can be solved.


Then solve the current terror response mechanism and ORBAT.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Harpal Bector » 31 Jul 2015 19:10

Karan M wrote: So for psychological pressure on unnamed people whom you don't know about, India should send its troops into harms way trying to take rabid animals alive.


What if it was done with no additional human casualties? - for example if a Daksh was used with a military grade taser. Or say a high frequency laser was used to induce visually triggered epilspy in the fidayeen?

Would that increase the level of acceptability?

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Tuvaluan » 31 Jul 2015 19:19

Harpal Bector wrote:Yes that is the narrative they put out - I am asking what can be done to make this pretense unsustainable in a schedulable fashion.


Let us do a recap of reality here before we go around asking cretinous questions and annoying the eff out of everyone here:

1. 9/11 was conducted by a mythical "al qaeda"
2. The entire US war machinery goes after al qaeda in Afghanisthan and proclaims Al Qaeda's leader as "Osama"
3. US spends 10000s of lives and billions of dollars for about a decade working with the Pakistani army as a "foremost ally" on terrorism.

4. in 2013, US finally finds the leader of Al Qaeda living comfortable in a Pakistani military garrison when the US takes him out and breaks out the party hats and declares victory. At this point, US knows very well, that "al qaeda" and Pakistani army are tied at the hip...assuming that americans are not the utter numbskulls they would be if they could not reach that conculsion...which leaves the other option that they know that al qaeda is Pakistani army's creation and have no intention of doing anything about it.

5. Before withdrawal, US messes with Afghan elections (in a deniable manner) to install an afghan govt. that would be friendly to Pakistan (i.e., pakistani army) and ensure that an India friendly and stabilizing politician like Karzai would be taken out so that his replacement Ghani would sign the BSA and allow paki army more of a hand in what goes on in Afghanisthan.

6. US DoD actively played a role in obfuscating Pakistan's role in the Qatar-based Taliban that is "negotiating" with the afghan government today, and this includes providing cover for the alleged death of the alleged "mullah omar"

All of this suggests (1) US knows that the Pakistani army has ties with the "al qaeda" and is part of the problem when it comes to providing deniability to pakistani army's terrorism (2) gathering more "conclusive evidence" on this front is pretty much useless given that even the existence of Osama under the protection of the Pakistani army was not considered as evidence of paki army's central role in global terrorism.

The US govt. is part of the problem is spawning and allying with global terror groups and has a say in how the pakistani army is portrayed all over the world -- no amount of "evidence gathering" is sufficient to convince the US wankers given previous point about OBL. Quaid-E-Duh.
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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Karan M » 31 Jul 2015 19:21

>>What if it was done with no additional human casualties? - for example if a Daksh was used with a military grade taser. Or say a high frequency laser was used to induce visually triggered epilspy in the fidayeen?

What prevents an epileptic jihadi from spasming an entire magazine into the hostages?
There is a reason why SF train for kill shots to the head!

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Sid » 31 Jul 2015 19:22

And we are still entertaining HB FUD fantasies. If we cant even capture HB alive (who is high on laughing gas and giving other forum members second hand smoke), how can we capture a suicidal terrorist. Which commander in world and in his right mind and conscious will send his troops to capture alive a man who is ready to blow up as soon as he sees you and has a cyanide capsule as backup.

Even if I am terminator (with my terminator army), "I wont be back" if I try collar a suicide bomber. They are called suicidal for some reason.

As soon as the word will go out that we have started capturing them alive, they will just add a new type of dead man's switch (maybe just link it with heartbeat sensor). If you skip a heartbeat it will literally kill you.

As Shiv said, he really is a sophisticated troll.

shiv wrote:I was thinking, what sot of guarantee can an abomination like Pakistan give that they will not kill our visiting PM. They are already saying that they are suffering from terrorism for which they need cooperation not criticism.

I mean - suppose a US president visits Iran and gets bumped off - are we in India going to break off relations with Iran and bomb them?

Same way if Pakistan bumps of Modi everyone will shed crocodile tears and then it will be back to bijness. It's not as though Pakistan can be punished by international disapproval and opprobrium


Yes, this is a very scary scenario, given there is perfect track record of GOI taking no action against such an incidents. They know there won't be any repercussions except for some saber rattling.

Unlike in Israel, where simple provocations meant siege of Yasser Arafat's residence or killing of PLO sympathizers even in Europe.

Our moto at GOI level should be "fight the guerrilla like a guerrilla", which Parikar suggested but chose wrong words in front of media.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Tuvaluan » 31 Jul 2015 19:25

And we are still entertaining HB FUD fantasies.


Since HB taking a cr@p on this thread is being encouraged by the mods, best one can do is limit the disinformation being spewed by the bugger.


Bad move. YOU need to stop being the Forum Rage Boy and doing soosai for no reason. Others have been engaging HB in a sober fashion and that is ok. Take a day off and get back when you can control your language, while we continue encouraging HB, by deleting his own brand of rubbish - Admin

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Harpal Bector » 31 Jul 2015 19:26

Dear Tuvaluan,

So your opinion is that all efforts will fail because of a US-Pakistani conspiracy that is bent against India. Okay now I understand where you are coming from.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Sid » 31 Jul 2015 19:28

@Tuvaluan, he is flame baiting at low heat. Don't fall for it.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Harpal Bector » 31 Jul 2015 19:30

Karan M wrote: What prevents an epileptic jihadi from spasming an entire magazine into the hostages?
There is a reason why SF train for kill shots to the head!


Death spasms can happen even with a head shot, and it is not always possible to take a head shot.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby ramana » 31 Jul 2015 19:30

HB, Most of your core points in all those highly incendiary posts can be summarized to this:

TSP has changed its tack of not leaving a calling card for whatever reasons.
Corollary they could use a variety of Islamic terrorists from Boko Haram to Chechens to locals.
TSP staged this attack to gauge the NaMo govt response to crisis time
Govt should have captured atleast one terrorist for PR and knowledge purposes.
Govt should create a new anti terrorist task force.

------

Fact no calling card was left shows its covert operation and not a terrorist operation. So whats new?

From Hind Times Article posted by KaranM NSA was completely in the loop and part of the decision making process.

They did try till 3:00pm to capture atleast one terrorist. Decision was taken to end the siege.

BTW this rebuts all the commentators/chatteratti who faulted the PP for not taking any terrorist alive.
Besides as I a said many times that a mad dog has to be muzzled or killed.
Who are we bothering to convince?
1993 US destroyed detonator evidence. 26/11 they arrested DCH who was a major pariticpant in the attack planning. Yakub Memon death sentence precedent would have visited the same on DCH and theother miscreant Rana.

And to expect TSP to get shame is moronic.

They persist in terrorism because they have the backing of US and China in that order.

So US has actively shielded criminals by giving them token sentences and protected terrorists.

Now coming to the new group to combat terrorists. SG(F) or what not.
Everytime there is an attack India response is to create a new force.
This is wasteful of resources ansd saps morale of exisiting forces.
Constable Omble was the one who took Kasab and not any of the super duper forces.
And these super/duper forces are located in Dilli to protect the backsides of has been corrupt politicians and take hours to respond to any crisis.


DGP Saini with his experience and lead from front is better than any super/duper anti-terrorism force. in fact he wrote the book on that by example.

If other DGPs are allowed a freehand they are second to none.

---UB
They don't want NaMo visit for fear it could lead to normalcy and that makes the kabila weak. And the guards redundant.

He should go and they will stage a coup or whither.

---
HB I suggest you take a break of two weeks. If you want can suspend the login.

What you are doing is second guessing and undermining the Indian response via PP.

Trolling the forum is there but other admins are on the case.
If you change your style of getting your message it might help.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Tuvaluan » 31 Jul 2015 19:32

Harpal Bector wrote:So your opinion is that all efforts will fail because of a US-Pakistani conspiracy that is bent against India.


This is mostly hilarious coming from a guy who pretends that Pakistani army consists of "good" paki army and "bad" paki army, and that the entire world is clueless about the paki army's alliances with global terrorism. But one thing is clear, you are selling the same american snake oil on the pakistani military's schizophrenic existence -- a perception that has aided the americans and hurt Indians for decades. Maybe time to look in the mirror and determine whose side you are on, really.

Strangely enough, this is a response that I have heard from many cretins who refuse to look at the dots presented to them with evidence. Yell, "conspiracy theory" as soon as the facts are laid before them.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Harpal Bector » 31 Jul 2015 19:37

Sid wrote:a man who is ready to blow up as soon as he sees you and has a cyanide capsule as backup.


That does not seem to be the fidayeen model. The fidayeen appear to be trained to draw fire and engage till the very last bullet. They are suicidal attackers not suicide bombers.

As soon as the word will go out that we have started capturing them alive, they will just add a new type of dead man's switch (maybe just link it with heartbeat sensor). If you skip a heartbeat it will literally kill you.


Actually I thought about that - this kind of wearable monitor would automatically limit the fidayeen's mobility. The sensor could go off if there is a slight contact problem as it commonly occurs from sweating or exertion. Wearable heart rate measurement is not very reliable when one moves around and changes the sensor position in arbitrary ways. It is a common problem in wearable sensors which has limited their application to movies.

Thank you Ramana, I will do what you ask.

You may cancel my login at any time.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Karan M » 31 Jul 2015 19:42

Harpal Bector wrote:
Karan M wrote: What prevents an epileptic jihadi from spasming an entire magazine into the hostages?
There is a reason why SF train for kill shots to the head!


Death spasms can happen even with a head shot, and it is not always possible to take a head shot.


Which is why double taps exist and repeated body shots are also taken. Better than trying non lethal means in a high risk environment.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Tuvaluan » 31 Jul 2015 19:47

A tranquilizer would do the job far more effectively than tasering someone if the intent is to capture someone alive.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby ramana » 31 Jul 2015 19:48

Ok guys move on.
----
PP did a super job.

NSA Doval was in constant touch with DGP all the time till decision to end the siege was taken.

No passive oversight.

No listening to Carnatic Music katcheri while Mumbai was burning.


Good that all kinds of resources were rushed: Army, NSG etc.

------

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby A_Gupta » 31 Jul 2015 19:51

Harpal Bector wrote:
A_Gupta wrote: And what are the identifiable negative consequences to Pakistan as a result of this public exposure?


It is difficult to quantify the exact impacts on Pakistan but there is a visible direct psychological pressure on named individuals and their as yet unnamed colleagues.

The current machinery is set up to commit acts of fealty and betrayal. The thing is no one wants to take public responsibility for bad acts - everyone wants to be seen as a good guy. Exposure as a bad guy makes it likely that the machine might have to take you out to protect itself.

If there is a reliable way to break the deniability element - internal friction should jam the machine?


Will you please share what you're smoking or imbibing?

E.g., it is public knowledge that

1. Per UN Security Council Resolution 1267, Muhammad Hafiz Saeed, leader of the Lashkar-e-Tayyiba is an international terrorist. ( http://www.un.org/press/en/2008/sc9527.doc.htm )

2. The US has a $10 million bounty on Hafiz Saeed.
e.g., http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240 ... 1915728378

3. The Pak-Punjab government sponsors Hafiz Saeed, via LeT's "parent", the JuD.
e.g, buried in here: http://rethinkingislam-sultanshahin.blo ... folly.html
The Pakistan Muslim League-led Punjab State Government, for instance, has long provided financial support to JuD for its 'welfare' activities. A grant-in-aid of PKR 61.35 million was given to the administrator of the group's training camp Markaz-e-Taiba in the Provincial budget for fiscal year 2013-14. The budget also included an allocation of PKR 350 million for a knowledge park at Muridke - JuD's headquarters - and various other development initiatives across Punjab.


4. India has raised this issue, along with the US in international forums, e.g.,
During the Financial Action Task Force (FATF) meet at Brisbane in Australia in June 2015, India had strongly raised the issue of non-compliance by Islamabad on freezing assets of Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) and its affiliates.


Now, tell me, what "visible psychological pressure" is there on Hafiz Saeed, or the named and unnamed Pakistani officials who support him? What part of the deniability element has not been exploded, let alone broken? I mean everyone in the world knows the truth. What change has occurred because of that?

Please, please, please point us to what you're imbibing so that we too can be happy even if out of our minds.
Last edited by A_Gupta on 31 Jul 2015 19:57, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby johneeG » 31 Jul 2015 19:53

Harpal Bector ji,
I think you shifted the goal post. But, I agree with your latest stand that terrorists can be caught alive. In this day and age, it is quite possible to catch the terrorists alive with little planning, sophistication and technology. I mean don't people catch wild animals alive? If a tiger or a wolf can be caught alive, then surely similar methods can be used to catch terrorists.

I think unconventional weapons like pepper bombs, anasthetic bullets, ...etc can be used to catch them alive. Once they are caught, they can reveal their training methodologies, locations, and everything about the terror system.

But, I disagree with you that this has any practical value in dealing with Pakistan in long term. Pakistan has already been named and shamed in 26/11. And Osama capture.

There is only so much of naming and shaming possible. I mean to say that Pakistan has lost all its shame or it has been shamed as much as possible. Any more attempts to name and shame them in this way will only backfire on the people attempting it.

If Govt of Bhaarath says,"Hey, look pakistan is sponsoring terrorism..."

Then, people will say,"You have been saying it for so long. How long will you whine about it?! If you can do something about it, then do it. If you can't do anything about it, then shut up."

----
UlanBatori wrote:The GPS sets are probably worthless misinformation. First, these days why do you need anything more than a tiny Garmin or a Nokia phone (no subscription or even SIM needed)? Do they provide differential GPS down to 0.1m precision? Surely not needed. They must have terminal area photos memorized, so getting to the general vicinity is enough, and that can be done with a cellphone. So why 'GPS sets'? I realize that these aces are madarssa grads, but still any brat these days knows how to use phone GPS.

Secondly, all these deep analyses on why the Pakis did this. Come on, there is a simple expanation. They have some 139 million terrorists. At least once a month they have to has SOME action other than buggering each other, hain? So they go out and shoot at Indian Polis, try to derail a train, shoot at a bus. Go to houristan. Equivalent of a Boyz Saturdin Night.

Read history. Pakis have been stealing cows, killing villagers, nonstop since 1947. Israelis have the same experience with their kind neighbors. No common factor implied of course. :eek:


If Pakistan just wanted to do terrorism in Bhaarath, there are many different ways of doing it and doing more damage. This particular methodology of training terrorists in Pakistan, sending them across the border and killing a few Bhaarath's citizens is actually very idiotic unless it is meant to do something else.

What is that something else?
- Create an insurgency like situation. Give an impression that a huge insurgency is going on in that area.

About GPS:
Using any electronic equipments will mean that it can be back-traced. If Pakistan wanted a cheap way to show routes, they could have simply used paper-maps. Cheap, affordable, non-back-traceable, ...etc. But, they used GPS. That means they wanted it to be back-traced.

Why would they want it to be back-traced instead of trying for plausible deniability by using paper-maps?
Perhaps, it was a provocation to see whether Modi govt actually matches up to its rhetoric. It is not a hidden fact that pakistanis are literally wetting their panties that Modi is going to finish them off. Now, suddenly out of the blue they launch this massive attack. And this was meant to be a massive attack because they wanted to derail trains.

So, why this sudden escalation?
Actually, Pakistanis have been trying small tests on Modi to see if he is actually the nemesis who is going to finish them off. But, those were quite small in terms of scale and importance(to mainland Bhaarath). Each time, Modi has given a strong reply. But, the reply was limited to that particular theater. I think that with this particular terrorist act, Pakistanis are simply testing how far they can go before Modi draws a red-line. And I don't mean things like cancelling talks or cancelling cricket matches. I mean real red-lines.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Karan M » 31 Jul 2015 19:53

Tuvaluan wrote:A tranquilizer would do the job far more effectively than tasering someone if the intent is to capture someone alive.


Moscow hostage crisis - has limitation. In Beslan, they broke the windows.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Karan M » 31 Jul 2015 19:55

>>Using any electronic equipments will mean that it can be back-traced. If Pakistan wanted a cheap way to show routes, they could have simply used paper-maps. Cheap, affordable, non-back-traceable, ...etc. But, they used GPS. That means they wanted it to be back-traced.

People get confused when using maps. GPS with database is more idiot proof.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby habal » 31 Jul 2015 20:02

We have a deadlock, should we take lives of 100000 pakjabis as retribution for terror attack who may have no love lost for hindus but do appreciate aspects of Indian culture such as Mohammad Rafi's music and Madan Mohan, Anand Bakshi, Lata, Asha, Kishore Kumar, RD etc which make some Indians nostalgic about pakis and reluctant to get even. Or do we bite a bitter karela and get on with the job. This seems to be the ultimate dilemma facing policy finalizers. We have spread the net far and wide into Pakistan and anytime now we may also have to bite the bullet karela and bring the matter to conclusion. As before Pakistan has serious internal divisionz which should be exploited to the hilt rather than waste time and resources by capturing terrorists alive. This can only cause international shaming of Pakistan but will not settle the issue in our favor since the finishing act still remains to be done.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby disha » 31 Jul 2015 20:05

Barpal Hector has watched too many of Avenger movies. After retirement from babu-dom and with the loss of position and with it the concomitant honor and dignity - Barpal'ji has just realized that he (or she) is just an aam-abdul like one of us here.

So why not create a team like Avenger's who can use non-lethal force on a terrorist and subdue them without firing a single bullet. And in the process also collect foolproof, weatherproof, modiproof, waterproof evidence that the terrorists are bakistanis vs. baki sponsored terrorists from Ghana or Burkina!

Barpal'ji - please take Ramana'ji's suggestion to heart. Stop watching Avenger movies. Watch Baahubali movies., even after removing the head - the body takes a hike.

In a nutshell, a dead terrorist is a good terrorist. Whether they are double tapped or triple tapped. And there is no difference between a "Suicide attacker" and a "Suicide Bomber". A Suicide bomber is an attacker first and a bomber last. If you cannot get this differentiation., I wonder how you passed your IAS in the first place. Or rose to the level of a babu with a flashing light on your sonata!!

The last few pages have been a major distraction. I read the statement by Hon' HM and that is good enough proof for me.


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