Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attack

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Multatuli » 02 Aug 2015 21:01

Shreeman wrote:

We think bakistan related oddities are novelties like dasheri mangos, unique. Take a look at the hispanic immigration problem and associated crimes -- drugs, money, slavery. The lot. It will take some serious sacrifice on someones part to disturb the steady downhill status quo, but the exploitation is neither new nor novel.


Those crimes are not unique for India, certainly the US has a huge drugs problem, and the corruptions is seeping in more and more (perhaps at accelerated pace), but the WASPS have allowed this (at least from the 1970) because the problem is (was) confined to the African-American and Hispanic communities, and it's quite alright if blacks perish. In India, the victims are Indians, youngster totally ruined. What I meant is that without political patronage (as is the case in India) the problem would be much, much less. And yes, many honest and brave Indians will die in this fight. Anyways, it's wildly off topic so I'll cease.

RamaY ji, as I wrote in an earlier post, India needs a master plan to dismember and ultimately erase Packeeland. This is going to be a long-term project, it must be continued irrespective of the government of the day, a broad political consensus on this matter is necessary.

And our aim must be to turn the Packee heartland (Punjab) into what Syria is today. This means India executes, through proxies, operations in Packeeland without respite. Indian operations in Packeeland should not only come as punishment for Packee terrorist attacks in India.

The Packee army officer is basically a business man, the same is true for the leaders of most Packee anti-Indian terror organizations (their business is terrorism): they are in it for the money, land, privileges, etc.. This means that they want to live. So killing them will certainly make them think twice. Imagine if the sport club, restaurant, cafe, cinema, other places they hang out, their home, office all become dangerous, do you think they'll still attack India so brazenly?

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby ramana » 02 Aug 2015 22:05

Every problem has four aspects:
- along + X-axis techincal (for want of better word) i.e. all things pertaining to issue at hand. the further along the axis the more complicated the investigation.
- along - X axis Cost and Schedule (Resources vector). Longer the +ve X-axis, the longer its on -X-axis also.

Above two show complex problems consume more resources.
- Along + Y axis is systemic. Does the issue at hand have systemic ramifications. How prevalent is it?
- Along -Y axis is emotional. More systemic the issue the more emotional it gets. Fear factor.

Instead of dealing with technical first and systemic aspects, Harpal jumped to emotional aspect which is in fourth quadrant and took the forum along with him into the emotional morass.

Even now technical is not nailed down.
How or what were the terrorists doing between crossing border and the attack?
Who gave them shelter? Where?

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Vayutuvan » 02 Aug 2015 22:15

RamaY: I am not saying we should not punish the guilty. All I am saying is that we (as in we Indians) have a very refined sense of fair play - refined over millenniums. So when somebody is punished, he/she is punished humanely. MB is replete with such examples. While killing animals for food, Indians prefer jhatka where as halal came from outside. We should shun any and all barbaric practices whatever the source. Law of the land and equality before the law for all.
OT You are confusing secularism for faux-secularism due to vote bank politics.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby ramana » 02 Aug 2015 22:18

Tuvaluan wrote:hummana hummana

Wouldn't be surprised if Harpal Bector wrote this:




tuvaluan Forum policy is not to link to that blog.

Consider this a warning.
No repeats.

---

My suggestion or even caution is stick to getting more on the Gurdaspur attack and leave speculations and all for later day.
And don't bring in dharma etc.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby RamaY » 02 Aug 2015 22:54

Apologies if posted already

Gurdaspur attack: Two trains passed over explosives, elude disaster

Investigations into the Gurdaspur terrorist attack have revealed that 270 passengers had providential escape on July 27 morning as two trains passed the point where the three Pakistani jihadis had planted 2.5 kg RDX to blow the rail track before attacking the Dinanagar police station.

...

While the formal investigation of the terror attack has been launched, the Indian security agencies are convinced that the attackers were from proscribed Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) on the basis of intelligence reports. With the recovered GPS indicating that the 12 waypoints were uploaded on July 21 at Canal Road between Khushab and Sargodha, the security agencies have confirmed that the LeT has a big office and strong presence in the area.

Khushab is known for Pakistan’s special weapons nuclear complex and Sargodha for air force base with nuclear delivery platforms. A US made night vision device and an MK72 LAW rocket launcher was recovered from the terrorists.

Although the security agencies had plans to hand over the two recovered GPS to the US agencies for digging out further details, the American agencies appear not too keen to get into India-Pakistan issue. This is also evident from the fact that US agencies have still not shared the results of investigations of GPS used in the March 21, 2015, attack in Samba sector of Jammu in which two suicide attackers were killed after gunning down six innocents.


Time to develop GPS data analysis skills within India? Also shows perfidy of US in its fight against terrorism.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Karan M » 02 Aug 2015 22:57

vayu tuvan wrote:RamaY: I am not saying we should not punish the guilty. All I am saying is that we (as in we Indians) have a very refined sense of fair play - refined over millenniums. So when somebody is punished, he/she is punished humanely. MB is replete with such examples. While killing animals for food, Indians prefer jhatka where as halal came from outside. We should shun any and all barbaric practices whatever the source. Law of the land and equality before the law for all.
OT You are confusing secularism for faux-secularism due to vote bank politics.


Question is what did that refinement get us, when faced with brutal folks who weren't so refined? In the MB era and before, we had avatars drop in to do all the brutality on our behalf while our ancestors did fingernail gazing and decided they could remain refined. No such stuff anymore for the rest of us. Dharma should only be applied with those who play by its rules. Rest can go to heck. No great power protecting its people (eg Khan) follows such whimsical rules. And MB humane? Have to disagree saar. Its bloodthirsty and replete with gore and brutality during wartime. As wars are. Mucho rule breaking thanks to the presence of Krishna (as it had to be, when facing huge armies of opponents and victory was required).

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Karan M » 02 Aug 2015 23:06

RamaY wrote:Apologies if posted already

Gurdaspur attack: Two trains passed over explosives, elude disaster

Investigations into the Gurdaspur terrorist attack have revealed that 270 passengers had providential escape on July 27 morning as two trains passed the point where the three Pakistani jihadis had planted 2.5 kg RDX to blow the rail track before attacking the Dinanagar police station.

...

While the formal investigation of the terror attack has been launched, the Indian security agencies are convinced that the attackers were from proscribed Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) on the basis of intelligence reports. With the recovered GPS indicating that the 12 waypoints were uploaded on July 21 at Canal Road between Khushab and Sargodha, the security agencies have confirmed that the LeT has a big office and strong presence in the area.

Khushab is known for Pakistan’s special weapons nuclear complex and Sargodha for air force base with nuclear delivery platforms. A US made night vision device and an MK72 LAW rocket launcher was recovered from the terrorists.

Although the security agencies had plans to hand over the two recovered GPS to the US agencies for digging out further details, the American agencies appear not too keen to get into India-Pakistan issue. This is also evident from the fact that US agencies have still not shared the results of investigations of GPS used in the March 21, 2015, attack in Samba sector of Jammu in which two suicide attackers were killed after gunning down six innocents.


Time to develop GPS data analysis skills within India? Also shows perfidy of US in its fight against terrorism.


Dhoni's critics charge he is more lucky than anything else.
In this case, its Modi & co who must be counting their bets placed.

The people who escaped apart, this was a narrow miss.

We need a systemic capability in place to check all infrastructure (rails, key hubs etc) with efficient resources (eg explosive sniffing dogs), moment a terror attack is suspected and we can plot a radius of the people involved's ingress, travel route and exit.

Time to develop GPS data analysis skills within India?


We do have those in select private places and labs. One prvt firm is a GPS expert. As you say data analysis of GPS would enable figuring out time spent at each location and further focus our resources.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby ramana » 03 Aug 2015 01:37

Relying on US to do forensics on their pet terrorist monster is height of delusion.
Especially if it involves handing over the catch.

They destroy in test.

More important figure outhow the trains were saved.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby RajeshA » 03 Aug 2015 01:43

vayu tuvan wrote:RamaY: I am not saying we should not punish the guilty. All I am saying is that we (as in we Indians) have a very refined sense of fair play - refined over millenniums. So when somebody is punished, he/she is punished humanely. MB is replete with such examples. While killing animals for food, Indians prefer jhatka where as halal came from outside. We should shun any and all barbaric practices whatever the source. Law of the land and equality before the law for all.
OT You are confusing secularism for faux-secularism due to vote bank politics.


When an opportunity to do Adharma avails itself, logic dictates that Dharma would be followed only in two cases - ingrained Dharmic conscience or utter fear. The secular state fails on both accounts - it can neither instill one nor the other.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby ramana » 03 Aug 2015 01:48

LINK

Looks like GPS waypoints were loaded on July 21 and fellows crossed over in wee hours of morning of Gurdaspur attack.


Image

and

A rocket launcher recovered from the three terrorists killed in Dinanagar was destroyed by Army authorities at Makaura Pattan near Ravi river on Sunday.

Amritsar border range inspector general of police Ishwar Chander said the launcher was loaded with a live rocket and was dangerous to handle.

The IG said Army experts dug up a trench 6 feet deep and 4 feet wide to destroy the said weapon.

He said the rocket launcher was powerful enough to destroy a building. The IG said the terrorists, who were holed up in a police building in Dinanagar, might not have got the opportunity to use the launcher. "The rocket launcher was capable of destroying 50 Punjab Police quarters near the police station," the officer said.

Replying to a query, the IG said the analysis of a global positioning system (GPS) device recovered from the terrorists pointed out that they had used the Narot Jaimal Singh-Makaura-Bharath-Qazipur-Taragarh route to reach Dinanagar. He said the terrorists had sneaked in between July 21 and July 27.

Gurdaspur senior superintendent of police Gurpreet Singh Toor said the police have recovered 10 AK 56 rifles, 21 magazines, 89 live cartridges, 305 empty cartridges, three belts of cartridges, five hand grenades and three hand grenade pins from the site.


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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Karan M » 03 Aug 2015 02:03

Looks like a LAW,

Image

Image

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby ramana » 03 Aug 2015 02:06

Pakis ued US equipment to snub India and US.

Bet even GPS is military grade unit from US supplied stocks.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby chetak » 03 Aug 2015 05:14

ramana wrote:Pakis ued US equipment to snub India and US.

Bet even GPS is military grade unit from US supplied stocks.


There is a thriving business of looting NATO and US containers during transit from pakiland to afghanistan as is the thriving business of the sale of such looted items.

On occasion the amrekis have ransomed some of their own looted stuff from various paki groups.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby ramana » 03 Aug 2015 05:22

It does not matter if its looted or not its US equipment was chosen to be sent with terrorists by g(r)andmaster.

So whom was message being sent to?

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Singha » 03 Aug 2015 07:09

how did they cross 2 rivers inside india? surely they could not have carried inflatable rafts across.

did they steal boats or had sympathizers here to ferry?

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby chetak » 03 Aug 2015 07:28

ramana wrote:It does not matter if its looted or not its US equipment was chosen to be sent with terrorists by g(r)andmaster.

So whom was message being sent to?


That is precisely the point. The message is being sent while maintaining plausible deniability. The message has not been lost as the pakis are openly daring the Indian state and Doval in particular.

There was absolutely no need for the GPS, complete with way points to survive the encounter nor the night vision device to be left behind so obviously. This is planting evidence. They have otherwise been very careful in removing all traces of paki origin on the clothes and other gear. The glove seems to be the only item with a made in paki tag

They may have even intended for the bomb on the rail tracks to be found. Damage to an Indian train in the punjab may have real time consequences on trade from our punjab. The pakis remain dependent on many things traded from our punjab to keep prices low on their side of the pond.

The US will just confirm that both devices were "stolen" in transit and that the "looters" remain un traced.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby chetak » 03 Aug 2015 07:31

Singha wrote:how did they cross 2 rivers inside india? surely they could not have carried inflatable rafts across.

did they steal boats or had sympathizers here to ferry?


They were certainly facilitated by some one(s) in India, for sure. Drug smugglers were mentioned in some press reports, don't remember the context now.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby shiv » 03 Aug 2015 07:55

Pakis have been "openly daring" the Indian state for many decades now.

The question is why a series of Indian governments can neither explain why Pakis do this nor are they able to do anything to stop it.

Pakistan's behaviour can be explained by ay BRFite - but the information is unknown to the media and never released by the GoI. the hatred of Hindus, the indoctrination etc is kept hidden away from the Indian public like official secrets act.

It seems that governments prefer a thousand cuts to action and I wonder if the Babus of GoI feel that being open and honest about Pakistan will cause indian public opinion to force the GoI to take action - so better to lie to everyone about Pakistan.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby vasu raya » 03 Aug 2015 08:05

India under attack by many sophisticated Chota Shakeels

It is not that the Dawood gang has not used coercion and inducements to upturn the Yakub's death sentence. It activated every criminal, political and legal leverage. These leverages are nothing but over- ground Pakistani proxies. Unlike the sleeper cells they are vocal, having the veneer of intellectualism and respectability. The Pak military-intelligence establishment deals with these proxies through characters like Dawood Ibrahim. The underground jihadi proxies and sleeper-cells in turn are dealt by the likes of Hafeez Saeed and network in India.

It may be underscored, that the Dawood gang exercises substantial leverage over three important facets of national life of India, they being Bollywood, Cricket and politics. Without any pangs of conscience, leading actors, actresses, filmmakers and musicians traveled to destinations outside India to entertain Dawood and his men, not long after the 93 Mumbai blasts. Rather one filmmaker's son got away too easily for his role in 26\11.


Every successful terror attack reinforces this coercion based leverage

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby shaun » 03 Aug 2015 08:07

in the arms and ammunition pic above , there seems to be a 9 mm carbine among the assorted weapons.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby shaun » 03 Aug 2015 08:20

shiv wrote:Pakis have been "openly daring" the Indian state for many decades now.

The question is why a series of Indian governments can neither explain why Pakis do this nor are they able to do anything to stop it.

Pakistan's behaviour can be explained by ay BRFite - but the information is unknown to the media and never released by the GoI. the hatred of Hindus, the indoctrination etc is kept hidden away from the Indian public like official secrets act.

It seems that governments prefer a thousand cuts to action and I wonder if the Babus of GoI feel that being open and honest about Pakistan will cause indian public opinion to force the GoI to take action - so better to lie to everyone about Pakistan.

True sir and we expect the international community to support us !!

More articles such as the above by RSN Singh should be published and shared through social media.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby deejay » 03 Aug 2015 08:37

Karan M wrote: (Snip)

Dhoni's critics charge he is more lucky than anything else.
In this case, its Modi & co who must be counting their bets placed.

The people who escaped apart, this was a narrow miss.

We need a systemic capability in place to check all infrastructure (rails, key hubs etc) with efficient resources (eg explosive sniffing dogs), moment a terror attack is suspected and we can plot a radius of the people involved's ingress, travel route and exit.

... (Snip)


No, no no Karan Sir. Modi & Co. did not get lucky. Invert the glass - Someone else botched it all up.

I will take the liberty of bectoring from Suarwadi G(r)andmaster's side and this is my version:

The G(r)and Plan was to attack India and add the dimension of K2 (Kashmir + Khalistan). So how does one execute such a plan:
- Identify target/s - Train, Bus, town, hostages, mayhem etc. (26/11 style)
- Define goal - Large scale casualties, drama of hostage played out on obliging Indian media over an entire day (if not days) and get international attention on Khalistan
- Select and train the smartest, bestest, ablest, greenest, Muridke graduates
- Attack in the wee hours when the Indians are still waking up

The challenges:
- Fenced border, repeat failures in infiltration
- Poor support structure in India
- Do not have "Sikh" recruits so have to use the "pious"
- Attacks on India have become really difficult these days, make 'em count when they happen. Nowadays, Indian HM's are not interested in changing their 'dresses'.

The execution
- IED's on train track - Did not explode despite zillion tons of train pressure. Soap for RDX or what?
- Attack on bus and failed to deter even Civilians like the driver and Punjab Police.
- Attack in town and failed to take hostages, holed up in a Police Station not a hospital or a market, low "kill" count
- Fidayeened in less than half a day
- Indian Media support effectively curtailed by GOI order and failure of the attack to make it big further killed interest.
- Idiots from Muridke identified as non Sikh.

Conclusion
The attack failed in all objectives. This despite adequate provisioning. Firing on the border to help infiltration went waste as the returns were not commensurate. So, who botched up. One part of the plan failed - bad luck, two failed - Indians have become smarter, all failed - bl@@dy phuls, abduls, could not even kill themselves properly. Is there a problem in the type of recruit, training and motivation at Muridke? Has the bar been lowered? Are the jeehardies of today inferior to the jeehardies of yesterday? Or the whole g(r)and plan was effed up because of amoeba in the brain.

These are the questions that rankle suarwadi g(r)andmaster long after the mission failed.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby shaun » 03 Aug 2015 08:50

^^^
Well Sir , the attack haven't failed , it killed Indians citizens and a very brave soul.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Aug 2015 08:50

Deejay:

The bums-e-rail were discovered by a railway man who sounded the alarm, and the signalman ahead stopped the train. There was no 'failure' of the RDX.

Likewise the bus attack failed when the driver's instinct told him the "soldiers" (were these sh1ts in Indian Army uniforms or just camo?) looked a bit too heavily armed to be thumbing rides, and he sped AT THEM. Straight into AK-47s. Scattered the pakis, so that their fire was aimless and still injured some bus passengers.

Indians are beginning to use their brains. And the comm networks are working (like rail man to signal man) and people are showing initiative. These are the force multipliers.

The one thing that does not appear to have changed was the needless sacrifice of the SP. He apparently charged in trying to make the sh1ts surrender. They need to be supplied with, and use teargas, flash-bang, maybe tasers, 90GHz beam weapons, poison ivy, a horde of bees/wasps, whatever to debilitate terrorists in order to take them alive. I agree that an attack that ends with 3 or 5 Pakis all alive but in the hands of the pandus, would be a terrific blow. THAT would deter would-be Houristan voyagers. But it is not worth even one injury to an Indian.

The Russians used high-concentration gas to knock the chechen terrorists out in that theater siege, so fast that they would not be able to reach their soosai bras. That's what led to many of the hostages also dying, there was not much choice.

Why not pump the place full of choloform from a good standoff distance? Would be so sweet to see 5 limp terrists being hauled off in fully 'debriefed' state for 'interrogation'. That should be posted all over the Internet.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Vayutuvan » 03 Aug 2015 09:19

Singha wrote:how did they cross 2 rivers inside india? surely they could not have carried inflatable rafts across.

did they steal boats or had sympathizers here to ferry?

How full are the rivers in Punjab? Godavari in MH and TS can be crossed by just wading through. E en though the river bed/valley is about 1/2 mile wide, water itself is about 100-200!feet wide and not more than waist deep if that.

Brooks and small tributaries of Ganga/alakananda in dehradune valley are not more than knee deep if that. They are ankle deep at places. That said sometimes the knee deep places are quite fast flowing but still crossable without aid. The waters are very cold though.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby arshyam » 03 Aug 2015 09:47

The bus driver in an interview on some channel (I probably saw it on times now) said that his suspicion was aroused by the soldier being heavily armed and covering his face with a black cloth. His reasoning was that our soldiers don't cover their faces and that seemed unusual, so he decided not to take any chances.

He showed great presence of mind.

Btw, I am noticing some posters referred to the terrorists as fidayeen. Isn't this a milder, if not positively inclined term, to describe such fellows? Can we please desist and just call them terrorists?

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby deejay » 03 Aug 2015 09:58

Shaun wrote:^^^
Well Sir , the attack haven't failed , it killed Indians citizens and a very brave soul.


Yes but from an attacker's perspective, how would you rate the mission.

I will take the liberty of bectoring from Suarwadi G(r)andmaster's side and this is my version


I clarified that I am postulating from the Paki side. From our perspective, if they made it in India we were attacked and we failed in stopping them. I am merely trying to postulate from the Paki perspective.

Someone glorified some grandmaster and I wish to point out that this grandmaster entity failed in all objectives that I could imagine from such a venture. So he is no grandmaster but another "genius" from across the border.

If you ask me a dead Indian is worth all the lives in Pakistan. My hatred not withstanding, how would "they" have planned and what is their take away from this attack.


UB ji,

There is a link above that 02 trains did cross without setting off the bomb. If entity "A" were to send a crack team to blow up tracks and that team failed (for whatever reasons, including someone spotting bombs in time) in doing so, it is a failure.

If entity "A" sent a crack team with enough fire power to hit a bus full of passengers and it failed because an unarmed civilian bus driver could see through their moves and save his passenger, the entity "A" and its crack team failed.

I do not think that this attack was planned to be executed in the way it happened. It was planned to achieve massive "kill" nos. and it did not.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Singha » 03 Aug 2015 10:17

imo the attack was a calibrated challenge - do not cause massive civilian casualties, make a beeline for a govt police station, maybe set a bomb but with a dud timer to demo they could do again.......once they settled into the PS , it was clear they would not escape so it was a set of people willing to commit suicide as directed.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby ramana » 03 Aug 2015 10:29

The bum e rail had defective battery connection. GD it failed Alon many fronts. It was not for lack of trying.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Singha » 03 Aug 2015 10:46

A-teams like 26/11 do not fail such elementary basics.
usually B-teams are used for message sending and kept below a threshold which will force Modi's hand at retaliation.

TSP is probably exploring the upper bound of this threshold as they would like it as high as possible to appease the jihadis and give it 'space'

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby shaun » 03 Aug 2015 13:13

Lol (pardon me) this discussion is moving 2 the logic of good and bad taliban a.k.a highly motivated fidayeen terrorists and less motivated fidayeen terrorists!! Those pigs came here for mayhem, managed to spill Indian bloods, got neutralised by sheer luck and bravery. Signals to GOI?!! We are receiving such signals for almost last 3 decades. I can only interprete such signals as culmination of all type of hatred coming out from bakistan.
I find explanation given by Hasnain saab the most accurate, http://swarajyamag.com/politics/the-gurdaspur-terror-strike/

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby shiv » 03 Aug 2015 13:38

Shaun wrote:Lol (pardon me) this discussion is moving 2 the logic of good and bad taliban a.k.a highly motivated fidayeen terrorists and less motivated fidayeen terrorists!! Those pigs came here for mayhem, managed to spill Indian bloods, got neutralised by sheer luck and bravery. Signals to GOI?!! We are receiving such signals for almost last 3 decades. I can only interprete such signals as culmination of all type of hatred coming out from bakistan.
I find explanation given by Hasnain saab the most accurate, http://swarajyamag.com/politics/the-gurdaspur-terror-strike/

Excellent article and so let me enter the "success or lack of success" in Gurdaspur debate in order to beat my usual drum, which I will come to in a minute.

A brief look at the weapons and ordnance carried by the dead terrorists suggests to me that they could, if luck had been with them, killed at least 200 people with guns+bombs. By that yardstick they did not manage to cross even the 5th percentile of what they came prepared for.

But to get back to my point, why on earth would any country send heavily armed men with enough firepower to kill 200 people? This was hardly a recce mission or even a trailer. Would this group have to have succeeded in killing 100 or 200 for us to understand that Pakistan is deliberately sending these men in?

That being the case where is the scope for talks? Where is the scope for any negotiaotion? Where is the need for "normal" consular relations? We as a nation are really stupid. Since I and a few others are not stupid, I simply must blame governments for being stupid in failing to understand and make public teh fact that we are at war.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 03 Aug 2015 14:19

Shiv

+ 10000

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 03 Aug 2015 14:23

They are using their superiority in unlimited supply of jehadi numbers to tie our regular forces down by committing acts of war on our own territory. And we cannot bring our superiority to bear becaue we do not acknowledge this simple obvious fact staring us in the face.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Karan M » 03 Aug 2015 15:11

deejay wrote:
Karan M wrote: (Snip)

Dhoni's critics charge he is more lucky than anything else.
In this case, its Modi & co who must be counting their bets placed.

The people who escaped apart, this was a narrow miss.

We need a systemic capability in place to check all infrastructure (rails, key hubs etc) with efficient resources (eg explosive sniffing dogs), moment a terror attack is suspected and we can plot a radius of the people involved's ingress, travel route and exit.

... (Snip)


No, no no Karan Sir. Modi & Co. did not get lucky. Invert the glass - Someone else botched it all up.

I will take the liberty of bectoring from Suarwadi G(r)andmaster's side and this is my version:

The G(r)and Plan was to attack India and add the dimension of K2 (Kashmir + Khalistan). So how does one execute such a plan:
- Identify target/s - Train, Bus, town, hostages, mayhem etc. (26/11 style)
- Define goal - Large scale casualties, drama of hostage played out on obliging Indian media over an entire day (if not days) and get international attention on Khalistan
- Select and train the smartest, bestest, ablest, greenest, Muridke graduates
- Attack in the wee hours when the Indians are still waking up

The challenges:
- Fenced border, repeat failures in infiltration
- Poor support structure in India
- Do not have "Sikh" recruits so have to use the "pious"
- Attacks on India have become really difficult these days, make 'em count when they happen. Nowadays, Indian HM's are not interested in changing their 'dresses'.

The execution
- IED's on train track - Did not explode despite zillion tons of train pressure. Soap for RDX or what?
- Attack on bus and failed to deter even Civilians like the driver and Punjab Police.
- Attack in town and failed to take hostages, holed up in a Police Station not a hospital or a market, low "kill" count
- Fidayeened in less than half a day
- Indian Media support effectively curtailed by GOI order and failure of the attack to make it big further killed interest.
- Idiots from Muridke identified as non Sikh.

Conclusion
The attack failed in all objectives. This despite adequate provisioning. Firing on the border to help infiltration went waste as the returns were not commensurate. So, who botched up. One part of the plan failed - bad luck, two failed - Indians have become smarter, all failed - bl@@dy phuls, abduls, could not even kill themselves properly. Is there a problem in the type of recruit, training and motivation at Muridke? Has the bar been lowered? Are the jeehardies of today inferior to the jeehardies of yesterday? Or the whole g(r)and plan was effed up because of amoeba in the brain.

These are the questions that rankle suarwadi g(r)andmaster long after the mission failed.


I get your point about how shoddy these folks were and are.

But the issue is that despite their incompetence all it takes is for them to get lucky once. That's all it takes.
The average TSP recruit (despite the likes of Bector waxing rhapsodical about Suarwadi G(r)andmasters) is a twit, illiterate and jaahil with no clue of anything and easy cannon fodder. So they keep sending them across with the hope that the numbers game will wear us down.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Manish_P » 03 Aug 2015 15:17

@Akshay Kapoor +1

Even the economic aspect of it is similarly lopsided in favor of the Napakis

Dip into the generous donations/leftover arms from the 3.5, add the free-of-cost virgin hoor crazy inbreds from the booming jihadi production line and send them on a one way ticket on our side of the fence

Very cheap human(?) missiles with end stage course changing capabilities

The only effective way of countering this is what the Defence Minister had mentioned about using terrorists to counter terrorism...

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Karan M » 03 Aug 2015 15:32

Singha wrote:A-teams like 26/11 do not fail such elementary basics.
usually B-teams are used for message sending and kept below a threshold which will force Modi's hand at retaliation.

TSP is probably exploring the upper bound of this threshold as they would like it as high as possible to appease the jihadis and give it 'space'


SIngha saar, the so called A-team took a lot of time to set up and was equally B as this one. They just got very lucky in that the UPA run apparatus was a complete shambles and didn't react at all.

Reading Unnithans book on 26/11 and many other accounts,including the Brit folks book with interviews what not makes the blood boil. Unnithan is pro-INC through and through but even he couldn't sanitize the shambolic nature of the reaction. There were Ghataks available - not used, the Colonel in charge waited for orders that never came. Marcos - too few to matter, deployed in ad hoc fashion much later than they should have. Not trained for any sort of complex room clearing exercise apparently judging by the sanitized accounts. Clearly no coordination even at services end with lack of clear directive from political side about what to do and what threats to expect.

NSG languishing in Manesar with most of their training kits (including the phamous pop up targets) not working and regarded as B-team of IA SF & no clear training regimen. Para-SF deputies arrive and knock some order into the SAG beyond the usual by rote drills.

NSG informed late, and only prepare early because an alert officer sees the TV and informs the unit. Arrive late, delayed even further because their transport is used as a bus by some bureaucrat who waltzes in two hours late. NSG, has adequate equipment only for one set of responders and even that is decades old. Patched up helmets for instance which were imported from Germany at the time the unit was set up. When they arrive, there is no proper transportation but BEST buses. No maps, no proper information from Mumbai police about targets, no clear information. They dont have intrinsic capability either to determine all this and operate by jugaad. IA SF guy on holiday gives them input. The hotel guys go above and beyond duty and accompany NSG people with key card in hands to open doors or show them routes. Lack of any sort of advanced equipment which means soldiers operate purely by hand signals (improvising on the job).
At the Chabad center op, local RSS/BJP/Shiv Sena guys handle the logistics giving them food, water and other essentials. Maha admin was apparently nowhere to be seen.

NSG has to then clear hotels with 100s of rooms, from one room to the next, while these cowardly TSP rats, once their drug addled haze broke off, promptly sheltered in some rooms. In Oberoi, once found, they were killed double quick. In Taj, they ran into a lot of luck hiding behind a huge pillar which was sheltering them from all attacks, even rocket strikes. NSG guys initially surprised, promptly made an IED with nails, glass etc and blew up that room. End of the rats.

Point is the complete lack of anticipation of such a strike and the limited, undermanned assets in place for such a scenario.

In initial stages of the hotel attacks, a handful of policemen try to seize the initiative with their antiquated service rifles or revolvers and the erstwhile commissioner Ghafoor is nowhere to be seen, he is off from the net.
Meanwhile NSG guys get calls from INC bureaucrats - "can't you guys just go in and finish the lot, take a few more casualties, whats the big deal". Our great NSA was apparently at the time attending some music concert. Clown prince was at some wedding and didn't even leave. Such was the great direction.

With such clowns in charge, and a complete lack of any systemic process in place to handle such scenarios, of course, the only result is going to be mayhem even when a B-team is sent in or a C team.

India is basically a corrupt monarchy which has subverted the working principles of actual democracy with the willing connivance of the media and babu-afsar combo. Now for once, a new representational Govt has come in place, and the aforesaid termites will do everything to sabotage this new Govt. The Modi-Doval combo hopefully realize this and have to put a team in place which can handle such events without relying on the so called existing system alone until the latter is also fixed.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby chetak » 03 Aug 2015 16:36

^^^^^^^
+108.

It was a bloody dog's breakfast, an unmitigated disaster.

Each outfit with a real fancy name to boot. Leadership was never in sight throughout nor in action. The icing on the cake was <DELETED> hemant karkhare who did not even know how to wear a simple BPJ. It looked more like a kitchen apron, the way he had it on.

some traitorous media, too well known to be named again, played the role of support staff and should have been jugged for aiding and abetting and the key thrown away.
Last edited by Raja Bose on 04 Aug 2015 02:16, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: You will not insult a police officer who died in the line of duty. User warned.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Gagan » 03 Aug 2015 17:21

The thing now wrt ISI sponsored terror is:
1. The ISI and Pak Fauj and the terror bosses will feel the pain directly. This is what offensive defence all boils down to.
You attack us, we'll retaliate,
Also, we'll continually undermine you, economically, politically, via internal dissidence in your backyard,
Also, there'll be a continous flow of dossiers, and chai biskoot.

I wonder how long will Pakistan be able to withstand this onslaught.

OTOH, the ISI's game wrt the Indian Mujahideen, sponsoring the NE rebels/rohingias, or the red cadre with the chinese is to create a self sufficient, self sustaining urban warfare in India with the hope of retarding India's economic progress(china & Pak), killing hindus and non sunnis (Pak).
So some low level haramigiri that is still nascent will be rewarded by the Pakis with the hope that it will grow.

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Re: Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attac

Postby Karan M » 03 Aug 2015 17:34

In fairness thats all Hemant probably had and he was probably not even trained to wear it. When all you deal with are two bit D-company shooters, that's the threat he expected.

Post 26/11, this is what came out.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 747956.cms

Look at how poorly fitting it is even otherwise:
Image

The entire chest area is exposed. Whats the point of a BPJ again?
And all this crap is being filmed in real time - was this a combat op conducted in secrecy or some sort of PR op for morale.

And this is what the UPA fatcats were getting by 2008.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 369722.cms

Our preeminent HRT, Anti Terror force was managing like this. Mismatched flak jackets with limited ceramic inserts, decades old helmets, limited number of old gen radios, no optics for their guns, list goes on and on.
http://im.rediff.com/news/2011/nov/28sld2.jpg


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