Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05, 2015

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Satya_anveshi
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Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05, 2015

Postby Satya_anveshi » 05 Sep 2015 08:10

Link to last post of previous thread

The following links are background material on Pakistan.

UNDERSTANDING PAKISTAN:

Jinnah's Pakistan: An Interview with MA Jinnah, and how the Pakistan of Yesterday is the Pakistan of Today
http://iref.homestead.com/Messiah.html

http://hsgac.senate.gov/public/_files/012809Tellis.pdf

The above is the testimony of Ashley Tellis on Jan 28th 2009, to the US Senate Homeland Security Committee on LeT's global role. It is a good articulation of LeT's past and future trends.

Know Your Pakistan
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... /Shiv.html

The Monkey Trap: A synopsis of Indo-Pak relations
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... ayyam.html

PAKISTAN-FAILED STATE: an ebook that owes its origin and existence to BRF.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/EBOOKS/pfs.pdf

Whither Pakistan ? Growing Instability and Implications for India: an IDSA e-Book, July 2010
http://idsa.in/book/WhitherPakistan

A landmark article that demolishes myths built up about Pakistan
http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/papers8/paper710.html

Pak's Continuing War against Indian Civilisation - Tufail Ahmad, Director South Asia Project, MEMRI
http://www.newindianexpress.com/columns ... 949359.ece

Pakistani Role in Terrorism Against the U.S.A
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... yanan.html

Pakistani Education, or how Pakistan became what it is: Curricula and textbooks in Pakistan
http://www.sdpi.org/publications/public ... 6-34.html#

Making Enemies, Creating Conflict: Pakistan's Crises of State and Society. A book written by Pakistanis on Pakistan.
http://members.tripod.com/~no_nukes_sa/Contents.html

Should Pakistan Be Broken Up? by Gul Agha
http://pakistan70.tripod.com/gul.html

A modest proposal from the Brigadier:

https://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/2002/03/landesman.htm

"We should fire at them and take out a few of their cities—Delhi, Bombay, Calcutta," he said. "They should fire back and take Karachi and Lahore. Kill off a hundred or two hundred million people......."


Alden Pyle in Pakistan, Part I
http://pundita.blogspot.com/2009/12/ald ... art-1.html

Prof. Walter Russell Mead, "Pakistan's Failed National Strategy"
http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/ ... -strategy/

"Pakistan Is", by Barry Bearak in New York Times Magazine, December 7, 2003.
Brings out succinctly various facets of Pakistani perfidy, obsession, fundamentalism etc.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... nted=print

Religion as the Foundation of a Nation: The Making and Unmaking of Pakistan - P.K. Upadhyay, IDSA
It probes the religious and sectarian fault-lines in Pakistan in depth to determine their impact on the future of Pakistan.
http://idsa.in/system/files/monograph36.pdf

Ms. Christine Fair's exposition on Pakistan military, society et al. A Must see.
Fighting to the End: Pakistan Army's Way of War

False Equivalency in the "Indo-Pakistan" Dispute - Ms. C. Fair, War on the Rocks, June, 2015

Shia-killing in Pakistan: Background and Predictions - A blog by Omar Ali


PAKISTAN and GENOCIDE:

Image Scan of article on 1971 East Pakistan Genocide by Antony Mascarenhas, Former Asst. Editor, Morning News, Karachi in Sunday Times, London, June 13, 1971

Text scan of the above article on 1971 Genocide

Bangladesh Genocide Archive

Ethnic cleansing in Pakistan - a statistical analysis
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... idhar.html

A chronicle of genocide by the Pakistan army
http://www.gendercide.org/case_bangladesh.html

Documentary video evidence of Pakistani genocide in Bangladesh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x-94U1bVUQ
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EBKlIUbpc ... re=related
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sMg9Ly9nK0g
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xwwPbkyZV ... re=related

List of military arms supplied by US to Pakistan since 9/11
http://i21.servimg.com/u/f21/15/54/62/79/pakist10.jpg

PAKISTAN & TERRORISM:

The Ideologies of South Asian Jihadi Groups (Laskar-e-Taiba)
By Hussein Haqqani (journalist and Pak ambassador to US)
http://www.futureofmuslimworld.com/rese ... detail.asp

Lashkar-e-Taiba: Past Operations and Future Prospects, Stephen Tankel, April 2011
New America Foundation
http://newamerica.net/sites/newamerica. ... _LeT_0.pdf


Pakistani sponsoring of Terrorism
http://www.geocities.com/charcha_2000/
http://pak-terror.freeservers.com/Terro ... y_Tool.htm

Terror Map: The Pakistani Hand
http://sify.com/news/specials/terrormap/?vsv=TopHP1

Inside Jihad - How Pakistan sponsors terrorists in India
http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/ ... r_sb1.html

Pakistan's Role in the Kashmir Insurgency - Op-ed by Rand's Peter Chalk
http://www.rand.org/hot/op-eds/090101JIR.html

Alden Pyle in Pakistan, Part II
http://pundita.blogspot.com/2009/12/ald ... -upon.html

BEYOND MADRASAS: ASSESSING THE LINKS BETWEEN EDUCATION AND MILITANCY IN PAKISTAN
http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Files/ ... nthrop.pdf

Pakistani Military Officers' Links with Jihadist Organizations
http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/5587.htm

Putting Our Children in Line of Fire - The Nation, January 27, 2013
The above is an admission by Pakistan Army's Top General that it was the Pakistani Army at Kargil, not the mujahideen, and Musharraf was the Culprit

Debate between a Taliban Scholar and a Paki Army Officer


PAKISTAN and NUCLEAR PROLIFERATION:

Pakistani nuclear scientist's accounts tell of Chinese proliferation - R. Jeffrey Smith and Joby Warrick, Washington Post, Nov 13, 2009

PAKISTAN TODAY:

On the Frontier of Apocalypse: Christopher Hitchens seminal article on Pakistan today
http://newsstuff.0catch.com/article5.htm

http://meaindia.nic.in/bestoftheweb/2002/10/14bow2.htm

A Slender Reed in Pakistan - Editorial in the Christian Science Monitor
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1229/p08s03-comv.html

Seymour Hersh Interview
http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript_hersh.html

Pakistan's Nuclear Crimes (Wash. Post editorial)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dy ... 2-2004Feb4

http://www.indiadefence.com/LOA07Aug04.htm

The Battle for Pakistan: Militancy and Conflict in Pakistan's Tribal Regions
http://counterterrorism.newamerica.net/ ... r_pakistan

BOOK REVIEW Fulcrum of Evil: ISI-CIA-Al Qaeda Nexus
http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/%5Cpap ... r1844.html

Article from Vinni Capelli - Foreign Policy Research Institute:
Containing Pakistan: Engaging the Raja-Mandala in South-Central Asia
http://www.fpri.org/orbis/5101/cappelli ... kistan.pdf

The videos are from this documentary: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/taliban/

A bomb at all cost By Ahmad Faruqui - a candid admission of the wars that Pakistan started against India.

Popular support for suicide bombings in pakistan.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 008_pg12_1
Survey by university students in karachi say 50% of respondents support suicide bombings in kashmir.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OWsmJIwe9Q4
"Descent into Chaos"
UC Berkeley Conversations with History, host Harry Kreisler talking with Pakistani Journalist Ahmed Rashid. 59 minutes 120 MB. It sums up Pakistan and lays bare all Pakistan's terrorist support and proliferation activities. **Note - he wants the US to solve Pakistan's Kashmir problem.

Pakistan on the brink: Video Link (must download)

MISCELLANEOUS

UNSC Resolutions on Kashmir

Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto telling Bangladeshis to "Go to Hell": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dsxfyxa ... re=related

IDSA's weekly summary of Pak Urdu Press:

http://www.idsa.in/pup


Christine Fair :Ten fictions that pakistani defense officials love to peddle

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Five installment series by Kapil Komireddi published in Frum Forum

Part I. Nov 16, 2009. “Pakistan In Crisis”.

Part II. Nov 18. 2009. “Pakistan: Origins of A Failed State”.

Part III. Nov 18, 2009. “Pakistan: It Could Not Succeed Unless India Failed”.

Part IV. Dec 06, 2009. “Pakistan: A Mecca for Radical Islam”.

Part V. Dec. 07, 2009. “Pakistan’s Army: Building a Nation for Jihad

A perceptive blog on Pakistan: http://pak-watch.blogspot.com/

Declassified documents from US National Archives on Pakistan:

http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/pakistan/pakistan.htm
_______________________________________________


Admission of state sponsored terrorism by Pakistani authorities


see this Der Spigel Interview where Musharraf admits to that.

On 7th Nov in TimesNow Channel, Tasneem Noorani, a former Secretary of the Pakistani Interior Ministry, openly said that.

Kiyani called the Haqqanis as strategic assets.

In Dec. 2008, President Zardari himself admitted to ISI helping LeT. He said,"The links between the Inter-Services Intelligence Agency and the LeT were developed in the old days when dictators used to run the country. After the 9/11 terror attacks in the US, things have changed to a great extent"

In an address to bureaucrats in July 2009, President Zardari said: "Militants and extremists were deliberately created and nurtured as a policy to achieve some short-term tactical objectives. Let us be truthful to ourselves and make a candid admission of the realities. The terrorists of today were the heroes of yesteryears until 9/11 occurred and they began to haunt us as well"

In Nov. 2009, Prime Minister Gilani admitted to the support for terrorism by Musharraf as "running with the hares and hunting with the hounds".

When Bush warned the Pakistanis in August 2008 of their support to Al Qaeda, Afrasiab Khattak, President of Awami National Party (ANP) said this: "The question is why it has taken the Americans so long to see what the ISI is doing. We’ve been telling them for years but they wouldn’t buy it.". See here.

In an interview to the BBC as far back as on Feb. 13, 1994, Benazir Bhutto admitted how she handed over to Rajiv Gandhi the complete list of Sikh activists colluding with the ISI in terrorism in the Punjab. Later, Nawaz Sharif described this interview as a faux pas.

Apart from these, of course, numerous Pakistani commentators, analysts, and editors have openly admitted to terror as a state policy.

________________________________________________________________________

Why Did Pakistan's Spy Chief Make a Secret Trip to China?
Quote:
Pasha's China trip has been interpreted by some as a tacit act of defiance—a reminder to his American counterparts that the Pakistanis can always look east to their “all-weather” friend across the Himalayas rather than bend the knee to the will of the U.S.

But it also may be a sign of China's growing disquiet with Pakistan. Another top-ranking Pakistani military officer, Lt. Gen Wahid Arshad, had already conducted a considerable tour of China just weeks ago in a bid to improve ties. A few analysts have suggested that Pasha's trip — couched in vague terms about building a “broad-based strategic dialogue” — may have been less a visit and more of a summons.


Quote:
Chinese officials claimed the attacks in Kashgar were authored by the shadowy East Turkestan Islamic Movement, a jihadist organization of mostly ethnic Uighurs, a Turkic Muslim minority that comprises the majority in the far-western Chinese region of Xinjiang. China routinely invokes the specter of the terrorist threat when cracking down on dissent in the restive region. Yet disturbances there tend to be triggered more often by social discontent — many Uighurs chafe at state policies they deem discriminatory and marginalizing — than militant connivance. Pasha's presence in Beijing may mark Beijing's continued efforts to root out Uighur dissidents and sympathizers beyond China's borders, as it has already done in Kazakhstan.


Youtube video: Bilatakalluf with Tahif Gora: Tarek Fateh dissects with Pakjabi society and shows how its war-impotent Army loots the common Pakistani (Jan 13, 2012)[/quote]

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby arun » 05 Sep 2015 09:18

Let us start this thread with the X Post of the last post of a news item in the now 72'd previous thread.

SSridhar wrote:Govt in no hurry to initiate Pak talks - ToI

A few days before the ill-fated talks between national security advisor A K Doval and his counterpart Sartaj Aziz, the Pakistanis started peddling the latest conspiracy theory from their spin factory: that they would corner New Delhi with proof of complicity of Indian agencies in the gruesome massacre of 126 schoolchildren from military families in Peshawar in December 2014.

True to their reputation, they would repeat it with a solemnity designed to carry credibility with those who insist on drawing equivalence between the two countries, as well as with the swagger of someone confident of the prowess {We always see this in Pakistanis} of their stealth weapon.

There was a little problem, though. A military tribunal which sentenced seven terrorists for carrying out the horrific slaughter of innocent children was never presented with the arsenal of evidence of "Indian hand" that Aziz was supposed to unleash on Doval.

In a statement, Pakistan army said that five of the terrorists belonged to Tawhid wal-Jihad, a jihadi outfit founded by Abu Musab Al Zarqawi who commanded the Iraqi branch of al-Qaida and was the source of inspiration for the formation of the brutal Islamic State. The other terrorists belonged to Pakistani Taliban and Jaish-e-Mohammad, the latter responsible for a number of terror atrocities against India, including the traumatic hijacking of IC-814.

The allegation was of a piece with the tricks that Pakistan had tried since its Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif committed the mistake of agreeing to a "terror-only" talk between the two NSAs in Ufa in July. Sharif, always prone to misread the military mind, had grossly underestimated the resolve of his army and the ISI not to pause their terror campaign against India. {While that may be so, Nawaz could not have embarked on an initiative with India without the concurrence of the Army even during normal times. Nowadays it is even extraordinary in Islamabad with Nawaz having ceded space everywhere to the Army and feeling completely besieged by it and the political developments.} The moves were aimed to wriggle out of the commitment between Sharif and Prime Minister Narendra Modi to get their NSAs to focus on "terrorism and all related issues".

Of course, Pakistan would claim that while it was being faithful to the Ufa spirit, India was out to wreck it by saying it would not let the two NSAs discuss Kashmir. Faced with the charge that Sharif had undermined the cause of J&K by acquiescing to India's insistence on prioritizing terrorism over other issues of bilateral concern, Pakistan argued that Kashmir being the "core issue" was part of the agenda for NSA talks.

Simultaneously, terror attacks against India increased with jihadis belonging to ISI's protege Lashkar-e-Toiba venturing beyond their traditional sphere of depredations to strike in Gurdaspur and Udhampur, a spike the government is convinced was meant to provoke India into calling off the talks.

The tactic failed to work with India refusing to enlarge the scope of the "terror only" format, leading Pakistan to cry off. But that Pakistan has not given up yet is confirmed by its high commissioner Abdul Basit's claim that Islamabad never insisted the NSA talks to cover Kashmir. The hollowness of the charge is borne out by the spate of accusations right up to the day Aziz called off his trip that India was deliberately misinterpreting the Ufa declaration to keep him from broaching the K-word with Doval.

Highly-placed sources contradicted Basit's claim that Pakistan would have been content with letting the two NSAs focus exclusively on terrorism, leaving J&K and other parts of the composite dialogue to be addressed by foreign secretaries.

"They have tied themselves in knots because they are victims of two miscalculations, one by Sharif who thought that Pakistan army, for the sake of its fight against terrorists, would relent on its hostile posture against India, and another by the military-ISI nexus that the unfolding scenario in Afghanistan has enhanced their leverage with foreign powers who would be compelled to indulge them," a senior source said.

That the generals and the spymasters were taking a lot for granted is indicated by Afghanistan scrapping the pact between its intelligence agency and the ISI. The US's tough stand on the release of coalition support fund, in lieu of the logistical support for international troops in Afghanistan, and the reluctance of President Barack Obama to host Sharif are other signs which show that Pakistan prematurely overplayed its hand.

The recognition that Pakistan is in an uncomfortable place is just one of the reasons why India would not rush into any fresh talks unless its concerns about terrorism are addressed upfront and its sensitivities about Hurriyat being unwelcome in the bilateral engagement are appreciated.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby arun » 05 Sep 2015 09:33

Retired Air Vice Marshall Shahzad Chaudhry of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s Air Force on the 1965 War:

The most notable achievement of the 1965 War was not that Pakistan won – it did not – it was that India did not win. That is about the maximum extent of objectives that this war served. Wars are fought to achieve political aims; when they do not, they are failed wars. In 1965, both sides failed to achieve their political objectives and thus both lost; in more respectable terms it is called a stalemate. So much so, that the two needed to fight another war in 1971 to achieve their political ambitions. In this case, India won and Pakistan couldn’t prevent the loss.


All of Pakistan’s war stories – popular in the public realm – are related to the courage of defending what had been wrought on itself.


Interesting comment by a poster named Prakash:

So you tried to burgle a house; Got kicked out; On top, the house owner entered your home and thrashed you; And now you are jeering at him because he didn’t take away any of your stuff?

I don’t know your definition of bravery, but you sure can put up a brave face.


Read it all:

’65, fifty years on

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby SSridhar » 05 Sep 2015 15:40

Pakistan takes issue of ceasefire violations to UN Security Council - DAWN
Pakistan has urged the UN Security Council (UNSC) to “take notice” of the escalating incidents of firing by Indian troops across the Line of Control (LoC) in the disputed Kashmir region and along the Working Boundary in which a large number of civilians have been killed and injured, it was officially stated Friday.

In a letter to the President of the UNSC, Ambassador Vitaly Churkin of Russia, who holds the rotational presidency of the 15-member body for the month of September, Pakistan’s Ambassador to the UN Maleeha Lodhi emphasised that India should be asked to abide by the 2003 ceasefire agreement.

In doing so, Ambassador Lodhi has taken the issue of India's “provocative” actions to the highest levels of the United Nations.


In her letter, the Pakistani envoy gave details of breaches of the ceasefire, and pointed out that there had been a spike in such violence in the last couple of months. These violations have involved the use of small arms as well as heavy mortar fire, and had targeted innocent civilians, including women and children, the letter said.

She requested the UNSC president to circulate the letter as an official document of the Security Council.

In July 2015, a Pakistan Mission press release said Indian security forces committed 36 violations of the ceasefire, resulting in five civilians being killed and six injured. In August 2015, it said, the number increased significantly, with ceasefire violations reaching 90, leading to 20 civilians being killed and 97 injured.

Over the past several weeks, Pakistan has been raising the issue of violations by India along the LoC in Kashmir and the Working Boundary at the UN with top officials in the Department of Political Affairs and Peacekeeping Operations, the handout said.

In this connection, Ambassador Lodhi briefed the senior UN leadership, including Deputy Secretary General Jan Eliasson, about Indian violations which “deliberately targeted the civilian population” and called for the UN Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan (UNMOGIP) to investigate these violations.

In her meeting with Jan Eliasson, Lodhi had informed him of India's rejection of dialogue by setting pre-conditions for the first-ever official talks between the National Security Advisers of the two countries, which led to the cancellation of the meeting, the press release said. Earlier, India had also cancelled the Foreign Secretary level talks last year, it said.

Pakistan remains committed to peaceful resolution of all outstanding issues, including Jammu and Kashmir, the release said.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby SSridhar » 05 Sep 2015 16:02

Mullah Omar asked Musharraf to bomb Kandahar: US cable - DAWN
The late Taliban leader Mullah Omar asked the Musharraf government to bring in weapons and bomb Kandahar if it did not like Taliban policies, reveals a secret US cable released by the State Department.

Pervez Musharraf, who was then the country’s chief executive, conveyed this message to then US Under Secretary of State Thomas Pickering at a meeting in Islamabad on March 26, 2000.

In the meeting, “the chief executive referred to the recent visit of DG ISI Gen Mahmud to Kandahar as evidence of what it was like to deal with the Taliban”.

“Mullah Omar told Mahmud he was sorry that Taliban policies were causing Pakistan problems and suggested that if (Islamabad) did not like (those policies), it might want to bring in its weapons and begin shelling Kandahar,” Gen Musharraf told Mr Pickering.

When Mr Musharraf urged the US to engage with the Taliban directly, Mr Pickering said the US had been engaging with the Taliban “at multiple venues on repeated occasions, in Washington, New York and Islamabad”.

Mr Pickering said “the fact that Pakistan was the strongest supporter of the Taliban, was of particular concern” to the US.

“This presented us with the anomaly of a good friend being the best friend of our worst enemy. This was an abscess on our relationship that would only get worse and worse.”

Mr Pickering said the US understood why Gen Musharraf did not want to go to Kandahar without being able to bring back concrete results. “But it was important that he recognise that the Bin Laden issue was eating away at our relationship.”

Mr Musharraf replied that he was well aware of US concerns and was personally engaged in dealing with the Taliban on three major issues. The first was terrorist training camps and the sanctuary being given by the Taliban to Pakistani terrorists and criminals. The second was the peace issue. And the third was Osama Bin Laden.

The former chief executive said that Osama Bin Laden was the one area where progress was not being made. He noted he had recently met the visiting Taliban interior minister, who had exhibited a “little bit” of flexibility on the issue. The minister had indicated the possibility of constituting an Ulema council, bringing together religious scholars from Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and perhaps the OIC, to consider the evidence against Bin Laden. {On Jan 9, 2001 (just 8 months before 9/11), Jamia Akora Khattak organized a conference, led by Maulana Sami-ul-Haq, fondly called Maulana Sandwich in recognition of certain abilities, of Islamic parties and terrorist groups, attended also by Gen. Mirza Aslam Beg and ex-ISI chief Hamild Gul, that declared Osama as a great hero and vowed to protect him}


Mr Musharraf said that the Taliban continued to want to see proof of Bin Laden’s guilt. Mr Pickering pointed out that the US had recently given Pakistan a full presentation of the evidence against Bin Laden.

Mr Pickering reiterated that the US did not believe it could solve the Bin Laden issue without help from Pakistan. If the Taliban did not believe that Pakistan took the matter seriously, they would be reluctant to take anything we said seriously.

A separate, secret message that the US Embassy sent to Washington before a meeting between Gen Mahmud and US security officials includes a brief assessment of Pakistan’s Afghan policy.

“Pakistan’s rationale for supporting the Taliban is also unchanged: It is committed to establishing a friendly regime in Afghanistan beholden to Islamabad, hostile to Iran and India, dominated by Pashtuns, and uninterested in pursuing territorial claims against Pakistan,” says the message.


The message also shows that there has been little change in US response to Pakistan’s Afghan policy.

The cable urges US officials to ask Gen Mahmud “whether Pakistan can conceive of an alternative to the Taliban that meets both Washington’s and Islamabad’s interests”.

It also asks them to let Mr Mahmud know that “perhaps a change of leadership within the Taliban would be sufficient” to satisfy the US. “Second, we should hint that if Pakistan cannot help us - as they steadfastly maintain — we will look elsewhere for assistance. No need to mention the obvious candidates: India, Russia, and Uzbekistan,” says the secret message.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby SSridhar » 05 Sep 2015 16:15

Pak terror groups eye drones, paragliders to attack India: Intelligence - Bharti Jain, ToI
Amidst chilling revelations by several terrorists and investigations carried out by intelligence agencies on possible use of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs)/unmanned aircraft systems (UASs) for terrorist attacks, the government has finalized a robust policy for flying such objects. The new guidelines for the UAVs/UASs including paragliders, hot air balloons, remote-controlled flying devices, microlight aircrafts etc will be out soon, said sources.

The recent attack at Jewani in Balochistan province of Pakistan on August 30, in which gunmen stormed the small unused airport in early hours, also sent alarm bells ringing as there are 325 such less used or unused airstrips in India, which can be used for launching gliders etc.

In fact, the threat from paragliders is borne by the interrogation of terrorists including LeT's Syed Zabiuddin Ansari alias Abu Jundal, Indian Mujahideen's Syed Ismael Afaque Lanka and Khalistani militant leader Jagtar Singh Tara. Jundal, co-conspirator of 26/11 Mumbai strikes, had revealed that LeT provides aerial training to select cadres. Independent inputs confirm ISI's role as well in training LeT cadres in parachute jumping. It is learnt that LeT is trying to procure equipment for paragliding from companies in China and UAE, besides falling back on in-house Pakistani companies to purchase the technology to build drones. In December 2014, intelligence inputs had indicated that LeT had paragliders ready to operate at two weeks' notice.

Afaque, the IM man arrested in Bengaluru in January, revealed during his de-briefing an interest in paragliding, which, given his religious and puritanical lifestyle, aroused suspicion. He had undergone a five-day paragliding training course in November 2013 in Goa and just two months later purchased two second-hand paragliders from the US. A safety harness was purchased from Huzaifah Power Tools, Bengaluru. According to Afaque's trainer, the IM terrorist had insisted on being trained alone, shown interest in tandem paragliding and also wanted him to explore the viability of flying paragliders in Bhatkal area.

Jagtar Singh Tara, arrested in Bangkok on January 5 this year, revealed the ISI's designs to liaise with Pakistan-based Sikh militants to procure motorized para-gliding equipment from Spain. The paragliders were to be launched from Pakistan to drop arms/explosives consignments here. This consignment was to be used by identified Pakistani associates to stage a fidayeen attack on Dera Sachcha Sauda at Sirsa. Fortunately, after receiving the equipment in semi-knocked down kit, the group could not assemble it properly and the glider did not take off.

The agencies, in investigations carried out in Spain, learnt that a motorized paraglider with a capacity to carry two persons was to be procured for 10 lakh Pakistani rupees. The equipment could carry a payload of 150 kg and cover a distance of nearly 70km. Tara tasked one Gajinder Singh to receive the paragliding equipment in Pakistan.

Spanish authorities confirmed that Spain resident Muhammad Umar Gondal had purchased a para-motor from a paraglider store in Costa de Sol area, mentioning an address in Sargodha, Pakistan, in the invoice. Gondal took the paraglider to Pakistan on June 30, 2014, when he claimed VAT refund on it.


As per the plan, the paraglider was to be launched from Narowal area during dusk time, with the intention of dropping the consignment into Indian territory. The paraglider would then make a return sortie, with the propeller fan switched off at a safe distance to avoid alerting the border agencies.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby A_Gupta » 05 Sep 2015 16:33

Apologies if posted before: http://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-a ... -president

"Almost all China's Uighur militants eliminated in Pakistan: President Mamnoon Hussain"

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby CRamS » 05 Sep 2015 17:50

arun wrote:Let us start this thread with the X Post of the last post of a news item in the now 72'd previous thread.

SSridhar wrote:Govt in no hurry to initiate Pak talks - ToI

The US's tough stand on the release of coalition support fund, in lieu of the logistical support for international troops in Afghanistan, and the reluctance of President Barack Obama to host Sharif are other signs which show that Pakistan prematurely overplayed its hand.



Hasn't Obama invited the good Sheriff to the white house despite TSP perfidy.

As many of us realized here, TSP attacks after Ufa were designed to scuttle the process. Something that seems to be missing in all of the KC Singh type anal-yses in their zeal to embarrass ModiJi. Also, its anybody's guess as to how the good Sheriff even signed Ufa.

One thing to watch out for is that TSP has gamed Indian response very well if history is any indication. Having achieved its objective of scuttling any discussion of its terror strategy, in the coming days, it might lower the temperature a tad, and turn on its charm offensive with its 5th column in India. TSP'simmediate goal is resumption of kirket to rake in some moolah.

Bottom line: we need to find a formula to thwart TSP's so far effective strategy of raising and lowering the pigLeT temperature at will.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby shiv » 05 Sep 2015 19:29

Folks - nowadays when I read about Shitistan - the media seem to say that Pakistan has moved on - way waay ahead of what it used to be. The army has defeated militancy in operation bum-e-zum. Yesterday's Deccan Herald had this article by noted author Bina Shah from the International New York Times - read the world over saying how Pakistan was third in the world in software innovation. Pakis are smart and well dressed. Even the terrorists are highlighted in the media as being young, jeans clad and internet savvy with Facebook profiles. Pakistan has kept up with the rest of the world to all intents and purposes and is now a troubled but strengthening force in the free world of democratic nations.

Or is it?

I have to dig into the recesses of my mind to recall other things that we have spoken about in the last decade.

First Polio. Polio has dropped out of the news. But it's there somewhere. Pakistan has seen a drop in number of cases of polio this year, compared with last year. The UAE has provided millions of doses of Polio vaccine and a concerted effort seems to be on - but no news of what is happening in NWFP.

Next, population. The population seems to be approaching 200 million. A decade ago it was 140 million. Literacy is publicly stated to have declined somewhat - with official sources saying 48% or so and some other sources quoting lesser figures.

Power supply: The news is only about power. everyone is building power plants in Pakistan. No news that the situation is much better but we may see a change here.

Regarding violence and terrorism - it appears that Karachi, the NW and Baluchistan are still troublesome - with the latter two keeping the Paki army busy. But within Pakistan the crackdown of operation bum e zum has had some effect. The Peshawar school attack has caused a crackdown on some violent elements.

As regards anti-India groups - esp LeT there is no change. they are chugging along merrily. They have an endless supply of young unemployed men ready to kill and be killed in the name of the religion of peace.

Overall I see no improvement or movement in Pakistani innovation or industrial output. In terms of weapons - Pakistan is getting stronger but its weapons sources are getting diversified. they have F-16 and JF-17s but talk of J-10s. The boast that JF-17s had an export customer does not appear to be true. They are getting attack helos from the US (Viper) and a have a few Z-10s. But they are also looking at Mi 35. Those helos are being used heavily in the NW in op zub-bum

From time to time we hear about internally displaced people in Pakistan. They are very much there - but we don't hear much. Maybe a million. There is a news clampdown.

There are commentaries from various people CFair and an Afghan envoy that Pakis are quite happy to survive in a slightly unstable state where they have stability and relative peace around Pakjab, and instability along borders and in outlying areas. This sort of existence is considered quite OK by the nations of the world who don't gibe a rats ass as long as their work is done. I guess that the financiers of the world are also happy as long as they have a steady income from Paki debt servicing.

The big question remains - how long can a nation build up a population of young unemployed and radicalized people without something going out of control at some stage. To me the biggest tragedy is that the one country that can screw them, India, is actually helping them. We are helping Pakistan look like a normal country with who we can do normal business. This allows Pakis to survive in that area between stability and instability. To some extent this is an Indian belief that Hindus are responsible for the ills of the world and a sense of apology for excesses foisted on others. Out educated elite are all, across the board consumed by this conviction. But I digress. Pakistan may not be thriving, but it has not collapsed either. We cannot link our development and future to Pakistan's collapse - we must move no matter what happens to shitland. We will constantly be exposed to mockery and derision that tells us that Pakistan's survival and provocation is our failure. As long as we believe this we are setting up a dynamic where some of us feel angry enough to want to see Pakistan collapse, while other Indians suggest that we should ignore Pakistan, and still others suggest that we should "engage" Pakistan. These dilemmas of whether we should attack, ignore or engage are set up by hostile Pakistani actions against us. If those hostile actions were not directed at us we would not have Indians arguing on BRF or in India whether we should kick, Paki butt, or ignore them, or engage them. To that extent our own actions are directed by Pakistan.

We have to learn to understand how Pakistan controls the narrative in India and how to shift the narrative where we are no longer under Pakistan's control; reacting to Pakistan's provocations with different "solutions"

Part of the problem is the way we see PoK as "ours". We feel so butt hurt that we did not keep it in 1949 but went to the UN instead as if the UN could do anything. Others have other things to be angry about. Ultimately I see this as a failure of a series of Indian governments in not being up front about Pakistan. Governments in India have avoided bringing issues to the fore and as a result they have themselves not bothered to analyse and understand.

I believe the best we can do is help change this by demanding explanations from the government and being up front and open about the way Islam and Muslims have been used by Pakistan and its allies as a tool to divide India and Indians. Whichever way you cut it - that fact stares out at you.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby A_Gupta » 05 Sep 2015 19:44

shiv wrote:We have to learn to understand how Pakistan controls the narrative in India and how to shift the narrative where we are no longer under Pakistan's control; reacting to Pakistan's provocations with different "solutions".


Start with BRF ! :) I claim that the narrative on the BRF Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is very much reactive to Pakistan; and focuses on Pakistan to the detriment of many other important things, and in that sense is under Pakistan's control. This is a "Strategic Issues" forum but the important but not urgent is constantly sacrificed to the urgent and not-so-important. It is probably because the important will take a lot of work to say meaningful things; on the other hand, it is easy and fun to blow hot air about Pakistan.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Tuvaluan » 05 Sep 2015 20:53

A_Gupta wrote:It is probably because the important will take a lot of work to say meaningful things; on the other hand, it is easy and fun to blow hot air about Pakistan.


It all depends what one thinks is important (strategic?) as opposed to tactical/near term, and what one thinks are things that can be controlled or manipulated vs. things that cannot. Seriously, one fails to see what kind of bloviating on this paki thread here can make an actual difference, when the Indian govt. itself seems to have rather limited options to dealing with pakistan, each with its own set of problems, and none of which can override the monetary support and mischief mongering of Pakistan's benefactors like the US....not to mention, the Indian officialdom itself seems to know the pakistan reality, but insists that treating it like any other state will bring forth results. This is certainly not true, AFAICT.

The only thing that can make a difference is talking less about pakis and looking at other things, and certainly the previous STFUP thread went blazingly fast compared to the one before that, maybe because of the recent terrorist attacks, which shows the 'reactive' nature I suppose.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby shiv » 05 Sep 2015 21:08

As a group we are reactive to Pakistan. There is someone or the other who is upset with everything that Pakistan does. Alternatively there is someone or other who feels proud or senses victory in every bit of crap that happens to Pakistan. To that extent we are obsessed and if we reflect India at all we are a classic case of a group where Pakistan can control the narrative.

When a Pakistani tells one of his habitual lies there is someone to get angry and comment on it. There is someone else top mock and call it a lie. There is a third who will try to prove that it's a lie. But in general we are not pro active about digging up what is not seen in the media. We wait for the media to say something and react to that, and by controlling the media our emotions and reactions are controlled. To that extent the STFUP threads have hit a rut with nothing new and 72 pages of same ol'

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Tuvaluan » 05 Sep 2015 21:17

I guess it goes back to the old truism about having to write original stuff about pakistan as used to be done many years ago on these threads -- that is the only way to not have the entire threads filled with reactions to Indian or paki media, and thus a derivative of the paki narrative that dominates the media in both countries.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby A_Gupta » 05 Sep 2015 22:45

OK, here's my "realist" view, please poke holes in it.

1. The Government of India is not going to do anything that risks an uncontrolled escalatory engagement with Pakistan.

A nuclear exchange too expensive. If say, 5 lakh Indians die, that is one 26/11 a month for some 250 years. The economic impact will also be severe.

2. Pakistan has a little fewer inhibitions about initiating an escalatory pathway. It expects the major powers to intervene to prevent a nuclear war, and in its favor (to make the headache go away).

a. But, with Kargil, it didn't work.
b. India's hardline stance should be very visible so that it is clear to the major powers from the start that they cannot expect that they can make the Pakistan headache go away in a crisis by forcing India to do something.
c. Whatever India's actual redline is, it would be good to convince Pakistan that it is rather low. Pakistan should be kept from miscalculations, such India would not escalate the 1965 J&K conflict to Punjab. IMO, there should be no scope for fantasy on the Pakistan side.

3. Some people here promote that idea that Pakistan is nuke-nude - i.e., it does not have working nuclear weapons, or it does not have a working delivery system, or both. If India does have such intelligence, then it is an interesting question as to why it, and the world, has not called Pakistan's bluff. In the meantime, things like "occupy Lahore" or "air strike on Muridke" are in the realm of fantasy, until someone figures out a way to keep things from escalating.

3. The EU (and the West in general) is not so dumb as to miss the sizeable contingent of Pakistanis slipping in along with the Syrian refugees. And this from a supposedly mostly political and economically stable Pakistan. The flood that would come from a failing Pakistan that has 10 times the population of Syria will not be permitted to happen.

Then, of course there are Pakistan's nukes.

There is also the strategic need of the various powers to have a check on Indian power, and to slow down its rise.

So in any case, any idea India has that the West and/or China will let Pakistan fail is fantasy. They will continue to pay several billion dollars a year to keep Pakistan going.

4. Realism - how to live with Pakistan - there are diseases one cannot cure, one has to live with them. Imagine a cancer patient, with some incurable cancer. He cannot ignore it, he cannot make it go away, there are various treatments with various nasty side-effects that may hold the cancer in check or may make it go into remission, usually temporarily. Getting angry, thinking that somehow if the patient is more virtuous the disease will go away, bargaining, etc., are futile, and even disrespectful to the patient!



Fortunately, Pakistan is merely a debilitating disease, not a fatal disease - unless India foolishly makes it otherwise.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Anujan » 05 Sep 2015 23:06

arun wrote:Retired Air Vice Marshall Shahzad Chaudhry of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s Air Force on the 1965 War:

So much so, that the two needed to fight another war in 1971 to achieve their political ambitions. In this case, India won and Pakistan couldn’t prevent the loss.



:rotfl: Look at this sentence in a purportedly neutral and enlightened article!! "Pakistan couldnt prevent the loss"!! :rotfl: The Air Vice Marshal cannot bring himself to say "India won and Pakistan lost". Or more simply "India defeated Pakistan".

It is like Mushy who called Northern Flight Infantry's downhill skiing as "Strategic redeployment"

It is a wonder that 71 war history hasnt been written up by Pakis like this: 90,000 Pakistanis advanced into Indian territory as part of "strategic deployment", targeted Indian army's supply lines and ate up all their rations for many months. Indian army was helpless and was forced to serve the 90,000 Pakis by feeding, clothing and guarding them.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby RajeshG » 05 Sep 2015 23:28

This scene from Lion King describes the scenario perfectly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xgus-9ONrDY

Zazu's lines and Mullah Scar's expressions are very appropriate. "there is always one in the family" and "if he ever gets dirty you can take him out and beat him".

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Dipanker » 05 Sep 2015 23:56

A_Gupta wrote:OK, here's my "realist" view, please poke holes in it.

1. The Government of India is not going to do anything that risks an uncontrolled escalatory engagement with Pakistan.


Govt. of India can continue with the controlled pounding it is delivering these days to keep the Pakis honest. This puts the ball in the Pakis court to escalate. Can they afford it?

A nuclear exchange too expensive. If say, 5 lakh Indians die, that is one 26/11 a month for some 250 years. The economic impact will also be severe.


This will kill all the Pakis in Rawalpindi and more importantly at Rawalpindi GHQ, will the GHQ people choose this method of committing suicide?

2. Pakistan has a little fewer inhibitions about initiating an escalatory pathway. It expects the major powers to intervene to prevent a nuclear war, and in its favor (to make the headache go away).


Crying wolf has not helped them lately, e.g. Kargil war. India stayed firm on its stand.

a. But, with Kargil, it didn't work.
b. India's hardline stance should be very visible so that it is clear to the major powers from the start that they cannot expect that they can make the Pakistan headache go away in a crisis by forcing India to do something.
c. Whatever India's actual redline is, it would be good to convince Pakistan that it is rather low. Pakistan should be kept from miscalculations, such India would not escalate the 1965 J&K conflict to Punjab. IMO, there should be no scope for fantasy on the Pakistan side.


Agree.


3. Some people here promote that idea that Pakistan is nuke-nude - i.e., it does not have working nuclear weapons, or it does not have a working delivery system, or both. If India does have such intelligence, then it is an interesting question as to why it, and the world, has not called Pakistan's bluff. In the meantime, things like "occupy Lahore" or "air strike on Muridke" are in the realm of fantasy, until someone figures out a way to keep things from escalating.


The question of nuclear exchange basically boils down to at what point exactly the Paki generals sitting at the GHQ would decide that is time to pull the plug on themselves? The army which makes it money by selling cornflakes, I don't expect such a step from this army. I think India has sufficient maneuvering room to pound Murdike next time there is a major terrorist attack on India. Again if we keep them honest at the
LOC, may be just may they will eventually learn ?

3. The EU (and the West in general) is not so dumb as to miss the sizeable contingent of Pakistanis slipping in along with the Syrian refugees. And this from a supposedly mostly political and economically stable Pakistan. The flood that would come from a failing Pakistan that has 10 times the population of Syria will not be permitted to happen.

Then, of course there are Pakistan's nukes.



This again provides us the maneuvering room to keep the Paki honest.



There is also the strategic need of the various powers to have a check on Indian power, and to slow down its rise.

So in any case, any idea India has that the West and/or China will let Pakistan fail is fantasy. They will continue to pay several billion dollars a year to keep Pakistan going.


True, but we need to keep growing at 7 to 8% rate, eventually we will catch up.

4. Realism - how to live with Pakistan - there are diseases one cannot cure, one has to live with them. Imagine a cancer patient, with some incurable cancer. He cannot ignore it, he cannot make it go away, there are various treatments with various nasty side-effects that may hold the cancer in check or may make it go into remission, usually temporarily. Getting angry, thinking that somehow if the patient is more virtuous the disease will go away, bargaining, etc., are futile, and even disrespectful to the patient!



Fortunately, Pakistan is merely a debilitating disease, not a fatal disease - unless India foolishly makes it otherwise.


Deliberately ignore the Pakis, focus more on Sri Lanka, Nepal, Bhutan, Bangladesh, Burma, Thailand in the neighborhood, can the Indian media do it?


Ok, I just typed all this off the bat in few minutes, just my 2cents.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby sanjaykumar » 06 Sep 2015 01:19

http://www.dawn.com/news/1204912/asylum ... in-germany

The comments give some insight into Pakistanis.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby RCase » 06 Sep 2015 04:08

Anujan wrote:
So much so, that the two needed to fight another war in 1971 to achieve their political ambitions. In this case, India won and Pakistan couldn’t prevent the loss.

It is a wonder that 71 war history hasnt been written up by Pakis like this: [i]90,000 Pakistanis advanced into Indian territory as part of "strategic deployment", targeted Indian army's supply lines and ate up all their rations for many months. Indian army was helpless and was forced to serve the 90,000 Pakis by feeding, clothing and guarding them.


and (to be included in Pakistani Studies) ...

The 90,000 Pak fauj were marching towards capturing Kashmir, when India went to the UN for intervention. ZAB famously tore the proposal in the UNSC. Misfortunately, he sold out national H&D and went on a trip (with Pinky) to Shimla to sign an accord on Pakistan's terms. Hindustan later on reneged on discussing the core issue of Kashmir, which was part of the Shimla Accord. Gains made by the military on the battlefield were squandered by the bloody civilians.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Prem » 06 Sep 2015 04:52

Paki knows that the moment India observe or suspect preparation for using Nuclear weapon, Paki will be tasting radiation before they could say AoA.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby shiv » 06 Sep 2015 05:45

Most bandwidth on this thread is focused on either making fun of Pakistan or calling out Pakistani lies, with a small space reserved for getting angry and upset at outlandish Pakistani statements like "Cricket to be resumed" or "India is responsible for terror".

As regards "making fun" of Pakistan - we started the Benis thread long ago because the STFUP thread (this one) was for serious information about Pakistan and Benis was for fun - although for some reason the Benis thread acquired a reputation for demanding only Pinglish language and total mockery of Pakistan. I believe that mockery of Pakistan has a place but Benis should be the place. This thread and Benis become duplicates if mockery is kept on here. Among the things that this thread has not done over the last couple of years is not follow up the information that does not appear in the media. If Pakistan's population has increased by 60 million in 10 years but literacy remains the same, then Pakistan has an extra 40 million illiterates. If Pakistan's economy has been on the dole for the last 10 years those extra illiterates are probably not going to be usefully employed in some industry or other. If Pakistan's exports have not risen over the last 10 years and the number of unemployed and number of illiterates has increased - what are those people doing? What will they be used for? How will they live?

None of these questions are actually asked on this thread any more. What we do see is report of Pakis saying Cricket will be resumed and anger at that. Pakistanis saying something to the US and anger at that. India giving a dossier, Pakistan ignoring and irritation at that. And reactive mockery. Analysis of what is invisible to the casual observer appears to have vanished from this thread. What sort of clout does the LeT have. Where are they making their money? Who are the Paki and Indian business houses that are gaining from indirect trade via Dubai? What is Paki army morale like? We never look at these things. All we do is either mock or curse. The only thing we need to thank KSA for is that they have arrested Zaid Hamid. His rants were the most useless and non contributory aspect of this thread and should have really been on Benis and Benis alone. Cricket stuff should go on Benis. Paki talk of IT exports, Culture, Lollywood etc should go on Benis. This thread has to become boring before it can lift itself out of utter cyclical 72 page uselessness and add to a way in which Indians can be helped to view Pakistan as it is rather than simply laughing or cursing

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby arun » 06 Sep 2015 06:37

X Posted from the “Oppression Of Minorities in Pakistan” thread.

In the Islamic Republic of Pakistan fellow Abrahamic Christist’s are harshly reminded on what it is to be a Non-Mohammadden Dhimmi Kaafir in a country claimed to have been created to provide a safe haven for the adherents of Mohammaddenism in the Indian Sub-Continent by falling afoul of medieval Mohammadden religion based laws.

Over the years I have come across many cases of individuals being accused of blaspheming Mohammaddenism in Mohammadden majority countries but do not recollect of any case where a Mohammadden has been punished for blaspheming Buddhism, Christism, Hinduism, Jainism, Judaism, Sikhism, Shintoism, Taoism or Zoroastrianism leaving me with the distinct impression that in Mohammadden majority countries, blasphemy laws are a weapon to oppress Non-Mohammaddens. Does anyone recollect any case of a Mohammadden being punished for blaspheming Non-Mohammaddens in Mohammadden majority countries? :

Christian arrested for ‘blasphemy’ in Kasur

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby rajpa » 06 Sep 2015 07:18

keep the Paki honest


This could be a great achievement of the border retaliations from India, if it happens.

One of the things that personally drives me a bit nuts is how the Pakis lie about everything. One of their well known liar strategies is to repeat almost verbatim against India whatever charges India has levelled against them.

Keeping Pakis honest at the reality level is probably what will stop their crazy lies. (Border retaliations, stop cricket, make mockery of their nuclear threats.. for ex: TV shows like "Blink"). We could even call these Confidence Shattering Measures. So they can stop the swagger and start wagging their tails like good dogs (b1tches?).

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby rajpa » 06 Sep 2015 07:30

Can we start a new thread on how India can use international media (including DDM) to bring out the truth about Pakistan?

. Terrorist nation, abounding in uncontrolled "non-state" actors
. The paradoxical situation of state not wanting to bring "non-state" actors under the state or under law
. Two faced lying diplomacy with USA, India, China(Uighur), Iran and others
. Civilian leadership subordinate to military, unable to carry out rational diplomacy, instead vending out threats and begging in return
. Gun to one's own head diplomacy a.k.a the suicide bomber diplomat
. False sense of civilised nation provided to interlocutors using Kabab/Shabab diplomacy
. Torn shirt, open fly diplomacy instead of being cooperative
. Zero commitment to international obligations like IMF, Shimla accord and others
. Country a large source of fundamentalists
. A large source of refugees, pedos, rapists and terrorists to other parts of the world
. ...........
Last edited by rajpa on 06 Sep 2015 07:38, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby shiv » 06 Sep 2015 07:33

A_Gupta wrote:OK, here's my "realist" view, please poke holes in it.

1. The Government of India is not going to do anything that risks an uncontrolled escalatory engagement with Pakistan.

A nuclear exchange too expensive. If say, 5 lakh Indians die, that is one 26/11 a month for some 250 years. The economic impact will also be severe.


I don't think it is a nuclear engagement that the GoI fears - although arguably they ought to fear it more. To my mind the GoI is either deliberately ignoring or actually ignorant of the the Islamic aspect of Pakistani reactions to India. Pakistani acts against India are treated as if they were secular acts of enmity. I will try and use an analogy - a man has a neighbour who deliberately makes sexual advances towards his wife. But the man refuses to acknowledge the sexual nature of the neighbour's advances and tries to pass off the neighbour's behaviour as simple hatred of his family. Pakistan openly provokes and uses "hatred of the Hindu" in its actions against India. I wonder if the Indian government fears that Indians will collapse into an internal fight if they say this out loud. That is Hindus will start killing Indian Muslims and that Indian Muslims will start supporting Pakistan if GoI starts telling the truth about what Pakistan is doing.

I do admit that the government itself has people who will be willing to attack Muslims in retaliation for Pakistani/Muslim hatred of Hindus. But by pretending that Pakistan's provocations are "secular" and not backed by Islamic justification, who is being fooled? Will the people in India who might (in theory) be ready to attack Indian Muslims simply get fooled by the Government pretending that 26/11 and terrorists who say "Killing Hindus is fun" are simply secular criminal acts with no religious overtones? The fact is that the truth cannot be ignored, but Indians have to be trusted to love their country enough to target their ire towards Pakistan rather than Indian Muslims. It appears that Indian do not trust each other enough and believe that any reference to Pakistan's Islamic provocations would be a "communal red flag" that will let loose Hindu hordes on Indian Muslims. But this game cannot go one forever. Indians now have access to enough information to understand that the fountain of Hindu hatred comes from Pakistn and destroying our own house is not going to set that right. To somem extent it appears to me that even Indian Muslims are clear on this point. They are often more vocal about Pakistan than fraudulent secular Hindus.

So I believe that treating Pakistan as a "secular nation state" is misplaced. It is a wanabe Islamic Calipate and its actions should be portrayed in that way.

A_Gupta wrote:2. Pakistan has a little fewer inhibitions about initiating an escalatory pathway. It expects the major powers to intervene to prevent a nuclear war, and in its favor (to make the headache go away).

a. But, with Kargil, it didn't work.
b. India's hardline stance should be very visible so that it is clear to the major powers from the start that they cannot expect that they can make the Pakistan headache go away in a crisis by forcing India to do something.
c. Whatever India's actual redline is, it would be good to convince Pakistan that it is rather low. Pakistan should be kept from miscalculations, such India would not escalate the 1965 J&K conflict to Punjab. IMO, there should be no scope for fantasy on the Pakistan side.

I agree that India's retaliation should be visible and felt by Pakistan. India should go further in risking relations with Pakistan in order to mete out military punishment of violence from Pakistan. India must climb the escalatory ladder. Unfortunately Indians are pacifist (cowardly?) by nature and instantly tend to lecture each other about the evils of brinkmanship. Unfortunately the act of omission of not punishing Pakistan, combined with the naive belief that rewarding Pakistan with trade, talks and concessions has a negative effect on the Indian population. I see anger as rising in India. In fact if I do not see anger rising in India, I would use all my power (along with others on fora such as BRF) to raise levels of anger and indignation at Pakistan to fever pitch so that Indians are baying for Pakistani blood. Brinkmanship is a game that needs to be played by India to see how far Pakistan will go. if they chicken out, fine. If they want war, we should be ready to give it to them. No point preparing for war and then taking punishment from Pakistan, keeping our military options in abeyance and rewarding Pakistan. This has been India's dysfunctional policy so far.


A_Gupta wrote:3. Some people here promote that idea that Pakistan is nuke-nude - i.e., it does not have working nuclear weapons, or it does not have a working delivery system, or both. If India does have such intelligence, then it is an interesting question as to why it, and the world, has not called Pakistan's bluff. In the meantime, things like "occupy Lahore" or "air strike on Muridke" are in the realm of fantasy, until someone figures out a way to keep things from escalating.

I think India has done pretty well on the nuclear front. Not only has Pakistan's initial idea that nuclear weapons would prevent an Indian response been rendered false, India's posture has forced Pakistan into lowering its threshold - claiming that nukes will now be loaded on 60 km range tactical missiles that would be used against advancing Indian columns.

In this connection I see some similarities and differences with the Noko-South Korea relationship.

Just like Pakistan, North Korea makes nuclear threats up front and those nuclear threats are given credit for keeping North Korea safe from imperialists. But NoK faces sanctions and generally does not provoke the South by regular terrorist acts

Pakistan also makes open threats and those threats are given credit for keeping India from attacking Pakistan. But Pakistan faces no sanctions and Pakistan chooses to escalate by provoking India by terrorist acts. The fact that Pakistan does not face sanctions for acting like North Korea and making nuclear threats is unfortunate for India, but then again South Korea is not a nuclear armed state and that serves as a valid excuse to differentiate Pakistan's behaviour from NoKo's behaviour. In other words the international community sees Pakistani nuclear capability as justifiable, needing sympathy and understanding because of the threat from big bad India.

Maybe one way of looking at this is to accept that India is both big and bad and would kick Paki ass in a trice if necessary. We Indians tend to protest that we are very soft and very understanding. Pakistan acts like we are big and bad and most countries seem to accept the Pakistani story. We are big and will be mean if need be. That said, if India is so big and so mean, why does Pakistan choose to provoke us with Islamic terrorism? Does Pakistan really "fear" india as it claims if it persists in sending terrorists into India, harbouring criminals and persisting with economic warfare?

This of course is the 64k dollar question. Does Pakistan fear India but wants to give the impression to Pakistanis that they do not fear India by being hostile? Or is Pakistan simply hyping the India threat for international sympathy while they do not think much of an Indian threat and will persist in provoking India? Is "fear of India" a posture that earns them sympathy and aid. If fear of India was real, then Pakis should not be provoking India. It would seem that the provocations that Pakistan makes indicates a lack of fear of India. This might seem irrational. Pakistan should fear an India that has done damage to them in the past and is now militarily and economically dominating over them. Are Pakistanis irrational then? I think not. In 1949, 1965 and 1999 Pakistani provocations were via "non state actors" but backed by state military forces. After 1999 Pakistan seems to have detached overt state military backing and stuck to provocations by non state actors while the state remains in teh background and protests its innocence. The idea seems to be that India cannot punish the Pakistani state when the provocations come from insurgents and angry freedom fighters.

This is where India needs to get its act together. Giving Pakistan megatons of dossiers of evidence of Paki state involvement is terrorism is useless because the Pakistan state will deny it. If we are hesitant to punish the Pakistan state directly using military means, the least we should do is not to reward the Pakistani state by normalizing trade and diplomatic relations. On the face of it the Modi government seems to be doing this but it is to early to tell if India will persist with this "non-soft" option

A_Gupta wrote:3. The EU (and the West in general) is not so dumb as to miss the sizeable contingent of Pakistanis slipping in along with the Syrian refugees. And this from a supposedly mostly political and economically stable Pakistan. The flood that would come from a failing Pakistan that has 10 times the population of Syria will not be permitted to happen.

Then, of course there are Pakistan's nukes.

There is also the strategic need of the various powers to have a check on Indian power, and to slow down its rise.

So in any case, any idea India has that the West and/or China will let Pakistan fail is fantasy. They will continue to pay several billion dollars a year to keep Pakistan going.


I am wary of this argument - i.e the argument that a failing Pakistan and the consequent refugee efflux can be prevented by somehow supporting that element of the Pakistani state that is actually provoking the refugee crisis. Either the west misunderstands or does not give a flying fuk.

The west is merely interested in engaging a mercenary militant force (the Pakistani army) that will crack down on unstable anti-west elements. This suits the Pakistan army as well. Stability is not sought an cannot be bought. The Pakistani state is least affected by a refugee efflux, just like ISIS does not give a damn if refugees flee Syria.


A_Gupta wrote:4. Realism - how to live with Pakistan - there are diseases one cannot cure, one has to live with them. Imagine a cancer patient, with some incurable cancer. <snip>

Fortunately, Pakistan is merely a debilitating disease, not a fatal disease - unless India foolishly makes it otherwise.


This is an excellent point. Pakistan is a disease that we have to live with for the medium term at least. We must recognize that it is a disease and not normality. we are not the disease, they are. And that disease must be kept at bay. If radical Sunni Islam is a problem - we need to say that Pakistan is a radical sunni state and make sure they keep that Sunni radicalism for themselves. It is their baby. We also ned to insulate ourselves from the west's machinations, which is a separate subject.
Last edited by shiv on 06 Sep 2015 08:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby shiv » 06 Sep 2015 07:45

rajpa wrote:Can we start a new thread on how India can use international media (including DDM) to bring out the truth about Pakistan?

This thread used to be the place, but times have changed. This thread started off as a repository of news from Pakistan. It used to be called "Pakistan News and Discussion". That was useful as long as people did not know about Pakistan and the internet was young and the Pakistani ISPR had not become media savvy and started controlling pakistani media.

Now the same Pakistani media whose report we link on here are Paki mouthpieces. they report what the Paki army want. They do not report anything that the Paki army/ISPR do not want seen or heard. Enough journalists have been silenced in Pakistan to ensure compliance with such rules. The fact that Zaid Hamid got so much publicity is an indicator of how there is official support of the narrative that Pakistan wants to display.

I wonder whether we should completely stop linking all Pakistani news media reports on this thread and dump them in benis or in a separate thread for 'Pakistan media reports". Our reactions and opinions are moulded by Pakistani media reports and those media control our narrative. That has to be eliminated from our analysis - and kept separate.

I think any Pakistani report from any Pakistani source should go in a separate thread entitled 'Pakistan media reports" -but these reports should not be posted or discussed here. We need (IMHO) an analysis thread that is uncorrupted by the Pakistani media version. Problem of course is that we already have a hajaar Paki threads.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby rajpa » 06 Sep 2015 07:52

shiv wrote:
rajpa wrote:Can we start a new thread on how India can use international media (including DDM) to bring out the truth about Pakistan?

This thread used to be the place, but times have changed. This thread started off as a repository of news from Pakistan. It used to be called "Pakistan News and Discussion". That was useful as long as people did not know about Pakistan and the internet was young and the Pakistani ISPR had not become media savvy and started controlling pakistani media.

Now the same Pakistani media whose report we link on here are Paki mouthpieces. they report what the Paki army want. They do not report anything that the Paki army/ISPR do not want seen or heard. Enough journalists have been silenced in Pakistan to ensure compliance with such rules. The fact that Zaid Hamid got so much publicity is an indicator of how there is official support of the narrative that Pakistan wants to display.

I wonder whether we should completely stop linking all Pakistani news media reports on this thread and dump them in benis or in a separate thread for 'Pakistan media reports". Our reactions and opinions are moulded by Pakistani media reports and those media control our narrative. That has to be eliminated from our analysis - and kept separate.

I think any Pakistani report from any Pakistani source should go in a separate thread entitled 'Pakistan media reports" -but these reports should not be posted or discussed here. We need (IMHO) an analysis thread that is uncorrupted by the Pakistani media version. Problem of course is that we already have a hajaar Paki threads.


May be create a separate subforum on BRF like the Tech/Strat/Mil forum and call it Pakistani - State of the Terrorist Nation Forum. All topics can be discussed as threads/topics in that forum, including BENIS ?

Name of this forum can be more objective sounding to international press like
1. Pakistan - Failing Nation Forum
2. Pakistan - Unstable Militaristic Democracy Forum
3. Pakistan - Analysis of a failing state Forum

The topics in that forum can be:

. Terrorism in Pakistan Thread
. Non-State Actors in Pakistan Thread
. Two faced diplomacy Thread
... Gun to one's own head diplomacy a.k.a the suicide bomber diplomat
... Torn shirt, open fly diplomacy instead of being cooperative
. Civilian leadership subordinate to military Thread
. Fake Civilised Nation Appearance Thread
. Reneging on international obligations Thread
. Human Trafficking from Pakistan Thread
..... Country a large source of fundamentalists
..... A large source of refugees, pedos, rapists and terrorists to other parts of the world
. Last but not least - Bojitive Newj Thread (BENIS)
Last edited by rajpa on 06 Sep 2015 08:08, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby rhytha » 06 Sep 2015 08:03

#JaiHind this is what happens when #India fires along #LOC On #Pakistan So don't mess with India

https://twitter.com/ManojG7/status/639003288872972289

:rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby shiv » 06 Sep 2015 08:11

rhytha wrote:#JaiHind this is what happens when #India fires along #LOC On #Pakistan So don't mess with India

https://twitter.com/ManojG7/status/639003288872972289

:rotfl: :rotfl:


:lol: Old but nice.

But I was wondering if we could start putting such stuff in Benis. Pakistan media reports seem to fall in the twin categories of funny/outlandish and plain lies. The funny ones make this thread a Benis clone. I believe we have 'lost track" of Pakistan's ""progress and development" after doing well initially in defining it and discovering things about it that were not well known. Pakistan is evolving and we have lost track of that evolution.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby johneeG » 06 Sep 2015 08:18

Pakistan media was always controlled by pakistani state(i.e. army). So, Pakistani media has always been the mouthpieces to propagate the narrative of pakistan. If anything, perhaps, the pakistani media has become slightly more free due to lot of internal bickering and the nature of electronic media. So, this whole argument that pakistani army now controls the media therefore linking them here is giving air to their narrative is quite misplaced. Anyway, the posters will link only those parts which they think are relevant.

Then, there seems to be another argument: lets stop talking about pakistan and hope that the problem called pakistan will vanish. I think this is a nice hope but impractical.

Pakistan is not likely to vanish just because brf stops talking about it. The reason people in Bhaarath talk about Pakistan(and not about other neighbours) is simple: Pakistan happens to be the only neighbour which continues to sponsor terrorism in Bhaarath. There is always tension on LOC. A part of Kashmir is occupied by Pakistan. Pakistan sponsors fake currency and supports the underworld which goes into all kinds of other activities which have effect internally. So, its natural to talk about a nuisance like this and try to find solutions to it. Not talking about it is not going to solve anything.

As for information about Pakistan, I think most people in the world today know enough about Pakistan already. Now, its time to do something with that information. And Bhaarath is unwilling or unable to do anything to solve the problem called pakistan. Most other countries of the world don't have so much problem with pakistan because they are not neighbours of pakistan or historical tensions. So, they find it easy to simply make some kind of deal with Pakistan. Bhaarath is not in a position to make any kind of deal with them.

As for nuke scenario and the world being insane enough to allow nukes in the hands of Pakistanis and Pakistan being insane enough to use them:
If all that was true, then what are the pakistanis waiting for? If they are really so mad and just waiting for an excuse to destroy Bhaarath(and don't mind going down along with it), then why not use the nukes right now? After all, pakistanis could nuke Bhaarath for anything(including something like firing at LOC). Why not? If they are not willing(or unable) to fire nukes during Kargil, what is to say that they will(or can) use nukes in the next conflict?

If we want to assume that they can and will use nukes in the next conflict, then we should avoid escalation at every stage. If Bhaarath is afraid of Pakistani nukes(assuming they have them and are willing to use them), then Bhaarath should simply do aman ki aasha. Let Pakistan do whatever they want. Bhaarath should stop retaliating( even on LOC). Let Pakistan fire on LOC. Let Pakistan do terrorism in dhesh. Let pakistan sponsor fake currency. In short, let Pakistan continue with proxy-war under the umbrella of the supposed nuclear capability of pakistan. Of course, its a slow defeat. But, that still better than nuclear war, no?

Personally, I think its foolish to believe that Pakistanis have nukes when they have never shown any evidence of it. Pakistanis are known as pathological liars. The threat of nukes is the only defense that Pakistan has against Bhaarath. So, they will gladly lie about having nukes.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Raja Ram » 06 Sep 2015 08:39

The Thomas Pickering - Musharaff reveals an interesting aspect that many in this forum and elsewhere have not given much importance. It reveals the fact that even the great super power, the one and only USA, were asked to give evidence on Osama's guilt post 9/11. And they obliged this non entity of a nation and its army dictator. Even as they were proclaiming loudly in TV "Either you are with us or against us".

It is another matter that the USG finally bombed the hell out of Afghanistan, got rid of the Taliban from Kabul at least and went on to finish off Osama in Abbotabad later. But think through this. The very same powerful US could not for many years get to finish what they started, could not bomb Pakistan, could not unmask the double game till date and not even make the Pakistanis arrest the Quetta shura.

We tend to be hyper critical on the successive GOI Administrations about not doing enough and providing dossiers. If you look at it overall, India is the only nation that has repeatedly punished Pakistan and hurt it badly including dividing this entity. No other nation, with far more resources, far more power and far more influence has made Pakistan do the right thing or make them pay for their actions.

We in BRF, far removed from the realistic situation on the ground, may not be satisfied about how India has handled Pakistan and feel that Pakistan has not been made to pay. But the fact remains, that it is only India that has made them pay time and again. We may not have gone the full extent of making sure that they pay for their actions. We may have let them survive, but this is not because of our failing but more as a result of a better understanding of our priorities, the geo-political realities, our capabilities and the constraints of our power.

What is it that Pakistan does that restrains the US viz a viz Pakistan, when its own vital interests are impacted adversely by Pakistan? It cannot be just the utility value that it provides as a willing instrument against India or as a go between to China or a provider of cannon fodder for the west and Middle Eastern monarchies. This aspect needs more attention by BRF.

Just the usual ramble. For your considerations.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby A_Gupta » 06 Sep 2015 08:55

shiv wrote:I wonder if the Indian government fears that Indians will collapse into an internal fight if they say this out loud. That is Hindus will start killing Indian Muslims and that Indian Muslims will start supporting Pakistan if GoI starts telling the truth about what Pakistan is doing.

I do admit that the government itself has people who will be willing to attack Muslims in retaliation for Pakistani/Muslim hatred of Hindus. But by pretending that Pakistan's provocations are "secular" and not backed by Islamic justification, who is being fooled? Will the people in India who might (in theory) be ready to attack Indian Muslims simply get fooled by the Government pretending that 26/11 and terrorists who say "Killing Hindus is fun" are simply secular criminal acts with no religious overtones? The fact is that the truth cannot be ignored, but Indians have to be trusted to love their country enough to target their ire towards Pakistan rather than Indian Muslims.


Shiv, more realistic is that GoI says something aloud, Pakistan's agent provocateurs embedded in India kill some Hindus and/or Muslims and start an escalatory cycle of internal violence. There may not be many Indians who will start violence, but once it starts, there are enough hotheads that will readily retaliate; and the propaganda will be it is the GoI that has provoked this.

Indians now have access to enough information to understand that the fountain of Hindu hatred comes from Pakistan and destroying our own house is not going to set that right. To somem extent it appears to me that even Indian Muslims are clear on this point. They are often more vocal about Pakistan than fraudulent secular Hindus.

So I believe that treating Pakistan as a "secular nation state" is misplaced. It is a wanabe Islamic Calipate and its actions should be portrayed in that way.


When an alleged ally of the BJP starts a campaign for an "Islam-free India" it is a problem, no?

Brinkmanship is a game that needs to be played by India to see how far Pakistan will go. if they chicken out, fine. If they want war, we should be ready to give it to them.


Brinksmanship is a fine art. Maybe PM Modi can be successful at it :)

As an aside, you've heard of the game of chicken, two people drive their cars at high speed at each other, and the first to swerve is the loser. The winning strategy allegedly is to toss your steering wheel out of the car, so that it is clear that you cannot swerve :)


Pakistan also makes open threats and those threats are given credit for keeping India from attacking Pakistan. But Pakistan faces no sanctions and Pakistan chooses to escalate by provoking India by terrorist acts. The fact that Pakistan does not face sanctions for acting like North Korea and making nuclear threats is unfortunate for India, but then again South Korea is not a nuclear armed state and that serves as a valid excuse to differentiate Pakistan's behaviour from NoKo's behaviour. In other words the international community sees Pakistani nuclear capability as justifiable, needing sympathy and understanding because of the threat from big bad India.


Actually, my belief is that India deliberate provokes Pakistan to make "aatmi taakat" statements because such pronouncements undermine Pakistan's friends' confidence in Pakistan. I think all of the 3.5 friends would greatly prefer Pakistan to behave like Israel - have nuclear weapons but never, ever talk about them.


This of course is the 64k dollar question. Does Pakistan fear India but wants to give the impression to Pakistanis that they do not fear India by being hostile? Or is Pakistan simply hyping the India threat for international sympathy while they do not think much of an Indian threat and will persist in provoking India? Is "fear of India" a posture that earns them sympathy and aid. If fear of India was real, then Pakis should not be provoking India. It would seem that the provocations that Pakistan makes indicates a lack of fear of India.


Shiv, remember the kabila theory of Pakistan? That is, one cannot make sense of Pakistan as a unified modern state. Some of the camps in Pakistan fear India, and others do not.

This is where India needs to get its act together. Giving Pakistan megatons of dossiers of evidence of Paki state involvement is terrorism is useless because the Pakistan state will deny it. If we are hesitant to punish the Pakistan state directly using military means, the least we should do is not to reward the Pakistani state by normalizing trade and diplomatic relations. On the face of it the Modi government seems to be doing this but it is to early to tell if India will persist with this "non-soft" option


If giving the dossier to Pakistan is a preliminary to bringing it up in an effective international forum (e.g., http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 873563.cms ) that is useful.


I am wary of this argument - i.e the argument that a failing Pakistan and the consequent refugee efflux can be prevented by somehow supporting that element of the Pakistani state that is actually provoking the refugee crisis. Either the west misunderstands or does not give a flying fuk.


Yes, they act that stupid. They have tried to stop terrorism directed against the west by supporting those elements of the Pakistani state that is actually provoking the terrorism. Even finding Osama bin Laden at Abbottabad has not changed their behavior.

Anyway, it is really irrelevant **why** the West props up Pakistan if it is clear that there is little possibility of them stopping unless India manages to muscle them into it. Obama's recent invite to Sharif is no doubt a prelude to releasing CSF funds to them which the US Dept of Defense publicly wants to be suspended.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Prem » 06 Sep 2015 09:05

How Balochi Sees paki
Image

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby A_Gupta » 06 Sep 2015 09:08

Raja Ram wrote:It is another matter that the USG finally bombed the hell out of Afghanistan, got rid of the Taliban from Kabul at least and went on to finish off Osama in Abbotabad later. But think through this. The very same powerful US could not for many years get to finish what they started, could not bomb Pakistan, could not unmask the double game till date and not even make the Pakistanis arrest the Quetta shura.


The US also allowed the Kunduz airlift!

What is it that Pakistan does that restrains the US viz a viz Pakistan, when its own vital interests are impacted adversely by Pakistan? It cannot be just the utility value that it provides as a willing instrument against India or as a go between to China or a provider of cannon fodder for the west and Middle Eastern monarchies. This aspect needs more attention by BRF.

Just the usual ramble. For your considerations.


Back in the 1940s, the British tried to "compensate" the Islamic world for allowing Zionists to settle in Palestine by supporting the Muslim League and later Pakistan. I believe in 1947, the US was originally sympathetic to India's complaint in the UN about J&K, until the British "turned" them. It is remotely possible that the US continues that same vein, namely, support the Muslim world in everything except where it impacts Israel's interests.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Paul » 06 Sep 2015 09:19

Paki president's wife refuses to shake hand with Eleven

https://pbs.twimg.com/tweet_video/CN_wsBLUsAAxzua.mp4

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby SSridhar » 06 Sep 2015 09:32

Raja Ram wrote:The Thomas Pickering - Musharaff reveals an interesting aspect that many in this forum and elsewhere have not given much importance. It reveals the fact that even the great super power, the one and only USA, were asked to give evidence on Osama's guilt post 9/11. And they obliged this non entity of a nation and its army dictator. Even as they were proclaiming loudly in TV "Either you are with us or against us".

Raja Ram, there are two things to be noted here. One is that the timeline for this was in c. 2000, not post 9/11. This was after the Kenya, Tanzania embassy bombing of 1998. Again, Musharraf is conveying the Taliban demands of 'proof'. Pickering seems to be conveying the message that since the US was not willing to engage the Taliban directly, the 'proof' that was shown to Pakistan must be enough because Pakistan was the biggest backer of the Taliban. The 'with us or against us' came in the wake of 9/11. But, I generally agree with your surmise that generally the US was simply unable to dictate terms to Pakistan (immediately after 9/11 was probably the only time it happened) though jingos here now & then feel happy that 'the US has read the riot act to Pakistan'.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby shiv » 06 Sep 2015 10:28

A_Gupta wrote:Shiv, more realistic is that GoI says something aloud, Pakistan's agent provocateurs embedded in India kill some Hindus and/or Muslims and start an escalatory cycle of internal violence. There may not be many Indians who will start violence, but once it starts, there are enough hotheads that will readily retaliate; and the propaganda will be it is the GoI that has provoked this.

This is what Pakistan hoped would occur in Kashmir (and in fact all over India) in 1965. It did not. In fact the idea that Pakistani Trojan horses live in India ready to provoke mayhem is the exact allegation made by alleged allies of the BJP who publicly call for a Muslim free India - but I will speak of this below. Let me stick to the topic of Pakistani Trojan horses sparking a paroxysm of self destruction among Indians.

The fear of this idea is the same one that prevented Indira Gandhi in 1971 from revealing that 75% of the victims of genocide in East Pakistan were Hindu and 75% of the refugees were Hindu. It was thought that this would lead to reprisals against Muslims in India. You are in fact suggesting that the same fear should justifiably exist today. The thought is that Indian Hindus will simply go about rupturing Indian society because of the hated Muslim. This is a secular Indian distrust of the Hindu - an unknown entity who is feared to be as willing as the rabid Islamist to destroy his own homeland over his ideology. The sort of Hindu who needs to be "kept in check" by the more secular and level headed among us by means of hiding from the truth and lying about reality.

I dispute this idea. Telling the truth about Pakistan attitudes towards Hindus is not going to cause widespread reprisals against Indian Muslims. In any case large numbers of Hindus and Muslims already know that Hindu hatred is a Pakistani trait. Indian have seen videos of 26/11 where Muslim terrorists were being asked to kill kafirs and Indians have all seen Gurdaspur terrorist Naved say that Killing Hindus is fun. I think that if Hindus wanted to provoke anti-Muslim riots they would have to do it themselves. Pakistan has not succeeded. I am sure Hindus could organize effective mobs to kill thousands of Indian Muslims. Indian Muslims know this and Pakistanis certainly use this knowledge to allege that Indian Muslims are "not free" because they must live in fear of the Hindu. No matter how much anyone argues or behaves secular, it cannot be denied that Muslims are safe in India mainly because Hindus have not chosen to kill them in the way Hindus have been eliminated in Pakistan or other non Muslims in Islamic countries. As someone said on Twitter, Muslims of all hues survive in India under the protection of Hindu dharma. Denial of this is pseudo secularism. Hindus can riot and kill just like Muslims and it is not the armed forces that have stopped them. Hindus have just not done it and will not do it. But denial of their ability to do it would be a lie.

A_Gupta wrote:When an alleged ally of the BJP starts a campaign for an "Islam-free India" it is a problem, no?
They can and they will. Brinkmanship is part and parcel of India politics. Anti Hindi riots in Tamil Nadu; Anti Tamil sentiment in Karnataka; Anti-Marathi sentiment in Belgaum and other chauvinistic extremist rhetoric is par for the course in the Indian political sphere. It would be a sad day for India to allow Owaisi and no extremist Hindu counter rhetoric. All is allowed in India. But no violence. Violence is invariably sparked by political parties using goons and "rowdy sheeters' That too is part of the Indian political scenario.


A_Gupta wrote:Brinksmanship is a fine art. Maybe PM Modi can be successful at it :)

As an aside, you've heard of the game of chicken, two people drive their cars at high speed at each other, and the first to swerve is the loser. The winning strategy allegedly is to toss your steering wheel out of the car, so that it is clear that you cannot swerve :)
It's also called "who blinks first" or "swerve"

Brinkmanship is part and parcel of politics and diplomacy. But avoiding brinkmanship as a morally questionable tactic which bestows some kind of superior moral status on the side that avoids it is plain stupid. It is like Gandhis wile compared with Jayaprakash Narayan's "duh-ness/dumbness" where he mirror imaged Gandhi without the internal grit that Gandhi had. Gandhis life was about brinkmanship - He always negotiated from the attitude of "Apres moi le deluge" - which is what Pakis do.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby ArmenT » 06 Sep 2015 11:44

rhytha wrote:#JaiHind this is what happens when #India fires along #LOC On #Pakistan So don't mess with India

https://twitter.com/ManojG7/status/639003288872972289

:rotfl: :rotfl:

A few years ago I showed that video to a well connected RAPE colleague of mine (who happened to be brought up in a different SE Asian country). Normally he's got a good sense of humor and laughs with the rest of us, but this time he didn't laugh so hard. Only later I found out that he's actually connected to the person in the video :mrgreen:.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby arun » 06 Sep 2015 14:39


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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby A_Gupta » 06 Sep 2015 16:08

^^^ Shiv, discussion of our differing assessments of the stability of "communal" peace in India definitely belongs a thread other than STFUP.


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