Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05, 2015

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35041
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby shiv » 13 Sep 2015 08:56

Tuvaluan wrote:Why will refugees flood India if pakistan "fails" -- what is the definition of "failed state" that will cause this? Pakistan already fits the definition of a failed state -- if it fails any more, it will still remain as failed as it is now. This is the kind of argument used to pretend that "making peace" with pakistan is the only way out -- pakistan is the fortress of islam and India is not, so the pakis are going to stay where they are, and if at all they come into India, it is a terrorists...and they are all appropriately dealt with by the Indian Armed forces. This kind "paki refugees will flood India and we will be saddled with them" is nonsense. If pakistan breaks apart, India can work with whatever new power centers emerge, as they will well before the breakup happens.


I think that refugees could pour in as a result of multiple events in which one event is a "last straw". That means war combined with drought or other natural disaster. However as Shreeman points out I think Pakjab will be immune to this sort of stuff - so we ain't gonna see too many coming in from the Pakjab side in a "worst case" scenario. We are sort of "shielded" from Baluchistan and Pakhtunistan by Pakjab - so refugees from there can only enter Pakjab or Sindh or Afghanistan.

But Sindh may be a problem. Sindh is a desert and Karachi has 10% of the Paki population and a lot of refugees from the NW. If there is severe civil war (luck by chance) plus drought/flood leading to famine - then we may see boat people coming from the Shitistan coast.

RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17260
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby RamaY » 13 Sep 2015 09:01

Why aren't Syrian refugees pouring into Saudi Arabia but are pouring into Europe?

Lessons for India there. Can there be a better role model than Saudi Arabia when dealing with Muslims?

Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9861
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Vayutuvan » 13 Sep 2015 09:48

Jhujar wrote:
vayu tuvan wrote:Jhujar ji: In short Munir Akram of Switzerland, I presume. :twisted:


And Nyc!! He was Paki At UNO and once changed Sharif's whole speech on his own.

I remember. He assaulted his wife (or was it mistress?) while he was at UN (as Permanent Pakistani ambassador to the UN). He claimed diplomuttic immunity and high-tailed to Switzerland. He has a brother also, right? Both RAPElites.

Shreeman
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3764
Joined: 17 Jan 2007 15:31
Location: bositiveneuj.blogspot.com
Contact:

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Shreeman » 13 Sep 2015 09:57

You can thank the bakistani ejjukashun system. The boatpeople will go to canada. As long as "people to people" contacts remain nominal -- read at a level far below where they are now -- no boats eggcept the mumbai type are coming to india. The gujarat/rajasthan border is susceptible to a ghazwa-e-failure-bin-bakistan, sort of last resort flood of hungry people because its too easy. The rest of the approaches are for enterprising people who want to be oligarches in oeurope and canada.

abhijitm
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3132
Joined: 08 Jun 2006 15:02
Contact:

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby abhijitm » 13 Sep 2015 11:17

Tuvaluan wrote:Why will refugees flood India if pakistan "fails" -- what is the definition of "failed state" that will cause this? Pakistan already fits the definition of a failed state --

In reality, no, pakistan is not a failed state. Syria, Somalia, Sudan are the examples. Pakistan has failed to serve as a nation and waiting to collapse (fail) but it has not crossed the line yet.

abhijitm
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3132
Joined: 08 Jun 2006 15:02
Contact:

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby abhijitm » 13 Sep 2015 11:21

shiv wrote:I think that refugees could pour in as a result of multiple events in which one event is a "last straw". That means war combined with drought or other natural disaster. However as Shreeman points out I think Pakjab will be immune to this sort of stuff - so we ain't gonna see too many coming in from the Pakjab side in a "worst case" scenario. We are sort of "shielded" from Baluchistan and Pakhtunistan by Pakjab - so refugees from there can only enter Pakjab or Sindh or Afghanistan.

But Sindh may be a problem. Sindh is a desert and Karachi has 10% of the Paki population and a lot of refugees from the NW. If there is severe civil war (luck by chance) plus drought/flood leading to famine - then we may see boat people coming from the Shitistan coast.

Flood of people can come from PoK.
Also you are right, first there will refugee crisis in pakjab. But when that explodes those refugees will try to cross the border.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19640
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Philip » 13 Sep 2015 11:24

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/s ... ern-mounts
Concern mounts over UK role in Pakistan drone attacks
MoD refuses to confirm if military at US base are involved in airstrikes
A drone on the runway
The RAF says it doesn’t take part in covert US drone strikes. Photograph: MoD/PA

by Jamie Doward and Alice Ross and Mark Townsend
Saturday 12 September 2015 16.36 BST Last modified on Sunday 13 September 2015

UK military personnel are suspected of having participated in the CIA’s controversial drone war in Pakistan, which has resulted in thousands of fatalities.

The Ministry of Defence has declined to answer a Freedom of Information request that would confirm whether its personnel have been embedded with US military teams operating drones in the skies above the country. The MoD said that it would neither confirm nor deny the situation because it might jeopardise “international relations”.

However, it insisted that the UK had never conducted its own drone flights over Pakistan. When pressed, an MoD spokesman said: “UK personnel embedded with the US air force have only flown remotely piloted aircraft systems in support of operations in Afghanistan, Libya and Iraq.”

The carefully worded response leaves open the possibility that drones flown by UK personnel have been operating over the remote tribal regions of Pakistan that adjoin Afghanistan.

The MoD’s refusal to clarify appears at odds with comments made by defence secretary Michael Fallon, who has said that “if we are asked to give details” about UK personnel embedded with other countries “we, of course, do so”.

The RAF has long emphasised that its drones operate only in defined theatres of conflict, such as Afghanistan and Iraq, unlike the US which wages covert campaigns in Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia. However, it has been confirmed that scores of UK personnel are based at the Creech airbase in Nevada, from where CIA drone missions are operated. A handful of UK personnel are known to have been embedded with US teams, raising questions about who ultimately has authority over them.

Last year the former head of GCHQ, David Omand, called for safeguards to ensure that RAF pilots embedded at Creech did not “inadvertently collude” in drone actions “contrary to international law”. Omand distinguished the UK drone programme from what he called the “sinister cultural and political salience” of US drone operations.

Jennifer Gibson of human rights group Reprieve, which filed the FOI request, said the refusal to confirm whether UK personnel had been involved was troubling. “This refusal suggests that we may be embroiled in the CIA’s secret wars in far greater ways than was thought,” Gibson said. “Given the CIA’s drone programme in Pakistan has killed hundreds of civilians while operating without public accountability, that is cause for serious concern. What more don’t we know?”

According to the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, which tracks them, there have been 421 drone strikes in Pakistan, 370 of which have occurred under the Obama administration.

Many are termed “signature strikes,” which are based upon patterns of behaviour, rather than confirmation that a target had been identified. The bureau estimates at least 2,400 people have been killed in the Pakistan strikes, of whom more than 420 may have been civilians.

Confirmation that UK personnel have been involved in the CIA’s Pakistan drone programme would raise fresh questions for the government after it revealed last week that two British militants had been killed in RAF drone strikes in Syria. David Cameron told MPs that the strikes were legal because they were taken to prevent attacks on the UK. But some experts questioned whether the alleged attacks were imminent, throwing into question their legitimacy.

There has been a long-running debate in the US over the legality and efficacy of its drone programme. “Numerous senior military and intelligence figures have warned that secret drone programmes of this kind can actually make the situation worse, not better,” Gibson said. “Before heading down this path, we need a real debate, and real answers from the PM … We need to think very carefully about whether giving our government carte blanche to kill people anywhere in the world, without oversight, is really a good idea.”

The UK’s deployment of embedded drone pilots was not revealed until 2013 when defence minister Andrew Robathan told parliament that they had flown US unmanned aerial vehicles in Afghanistan. Robathan subsequently had to update his statement to confirm that they had also flown drones in Iraq and Libya under arrangements dating back to 2006.

Meanwhile, Britain’s largest Islamic organisation warned that last week’s drone attack in Syria risked actually exacerbating the terror threat to the UK by potentially persuading more foreign fighters to join Islamic State (Isis).

The Muslim Council of Britain, an umbrella body that represents 500 Islamic organisations around the country, said that the strike had prompted consternation and appeared to contravene the UK’s adherence to the rule of law and due process.

In its first statement on the incident, the MCB said that the killing of Reyaad Khan risked fuelling the “narrative of western duplicity” that terrorism experts say helps Isis recruit new members.

Cameron has defended the lethal strike by saying that his primary responsibility as prime minister was “to keep the British people safe” and that there was no other means available to stop Khan from directing terror attacks against the UK.

The MCB statement said: “These drone strikes raise serious questions about parliamentary authority, which resoundingly rejected permission to attack in Syria.

“Furthermore, we are concerned that the drone attack targeted at British citizens does not fit well with our commitment to rule of law and due process. These are fundamental British values that we should all champion; not doing so may in fact inadvertently feed into terrorists’ narrative of ‘western duplicity’.”

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 23134
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby SSridhar » 13 Sep 2015 12:12

I would like to remind fellow forummers of the warning issued a couple of days back. For your convenience, it is reproduced below:

attention attention
Achtung bitte!

there have been complaints to the web hosting co of BRF about certain posts in this thread that have racist and sexual overtones.

so I would ask all users to go easy on the crude jokes, pingreji and stick to news of which there is anyways too much.

its very tough for mods to filter such huge threads for content, its better users exercise their good judgement


Just be aware that violating posts will be removed.

JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6989
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby JE Menon » 13 Sep 2015 12:28

Seconded.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 23134
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby SSridhar » 13 Sep 2015 13:23

Jhujar wrote:India-Pakistan: hyphenated
Strategic restraint by Pakistan will be possible only if it is mutual and reciprocal with India’s militarisation and seek military de-escalation and arms control in South Asia.

What is the threat he is issuing above? That, Pakistan will keep on producing more nuclear weapons (already, ground is being prepared for that by citing India's Pu resources for 2000 bombs) or that they would continue to lower the threshold for a first strike against India or that Pakistan would continue to spawn terrorism under the threat of nuclear escalation if retaliated or all of these or something else that this kafir's small brain is unable to comprehend (like moving to a second-strike capability)?

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35041
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby shiv » 13 Sep 2015 14:15

I am of the opinion that Pakis have inserted at least one Paki-pasand terror sympathiser into the "moderation boards" of various internet entities - such as YouTube. I recall an incident where a perfectly factual video was banned and the uploader got a warning for a totally lame reason "Youtube does not like shocking people" or Youtube does not like bad words" or some such thing.

You can expect this to happen time and again to BR to shut people up. Unfortunately the mod warning above is very non specific and does not give any hint of which or whose post had a problem. I hope that mods have at least sent a pvt msg to the person concerned who cause Pakis some distress.

If mods have not sent such a message please include my compliments for getting Paki knickers in a twist.

Muahahaha :rotfl:

Vikas
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5805
Joined: 03 Dec 2005 02:40
Location: Where DST doesn't bother me
Contact:

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Vikas » 13 Sep 2015 14:17

^Pakistanis in most of the case are found to be hot gas and nothing else.
What proof is there that Pakis are manufacturing Nukes as if world is coming to an end tomorrow.

KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3519
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby KLNMurthy » 13 Sep 2015 14:17

SSridhar wrote:India-Pakistan: hyphenated
Strategic restraint by Pakistan will be possible only if it is mutual and reciprocal with India’s militarisation and seek military de-escalation and arms control in South Asia.

What is the threat he is issuing above? That, Pakistan will keep on producing more nuclear weapons (already, ground is being prepared for that by citing India's Pu resources for 2000 bombs) or that they would continue to lower the threshold for a first strike against India or that Pakistan would continue to spawn terrorism under the threat of nuclear escalation if retaliated or all of these or something else that this kafir's small brain is unable to comprehend (like moving to a second-strike capability)?

He is threatening that pakistan will proliferate to other muslim countries unless US fixes India.

Looks like the pakistanis got a talking-to from unkil about their nuclear barking and decided that offense is the best defense. At least they will give enough material to the pro-paki, anti-India, anti-Modi forces in US and India to make noise. Till the issue blows over and they get their aid.

Vikas
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5805
Joined: 03 Dec 2005 02:40
Location: Where DST doesn't bother me
Contact:

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Vikas » 13 Sep 2015 14:18

What is Racist when it comes to people from India discussing world events.
Is Paki a Racist word ?

Lisa
BRFite
Posts: 932
Joined: 04 May 2008 11:25

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Lisa » 13 Sep 2015 14:39

Falijee wrote:Pak ex-military officers celebrate ‘victory’ over India at gala :roll:

Mississauga, September 11 (CINEWS): In the minds of millions of Pakistanis, India received a military trouncing in the 1965 war. Last Sunday, hundreds of ex-Pakistani military officers and their families who’ve moved to Canada over the years held a victory celebratory gala in Mississauga. protest
Pro-India groups ignored the event but outside the hall were a handful of outraged Baloch Canadians protesting the event. According to reports, besides celebrating Pakistan’s ‘victory’ over India in the 1965 war, they spewed venom and indulged in propaganda designed to turn the next generation anti-Indian too.[*]
The Baloch protesters are upset that many of these ex-army military officers who are being allowed into the country even though some of them may be having blood on their hands. The war against the separatists in Balochistan is considered Pakistan’s dirty little secret and there have been dozens of documented war crimes being committed by the armed forces against separatists dubbed terrorists.
According to sources Canada is a top destination for Pakistan’s military personnel who allegedly bring their ill-gotten wealth. “Many of them are buying million dollar plus properties in and around the GTA and buy small businesses as fronts,” said a source.
Tarek Fatah an influential journalist and activist who was among the protesters demanded the Canadian Government to ban the ‘Pakistan Armed Forces Association of Canada’ as an outfit of war criminals and deport them back to Pakistan.


[*] Pakistanayat in full display !


Is this the same Canada?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNrVtXEJjJs

Sorry don't know how to embed video

Peregrine
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6124
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Peregrine » 13 Sep 2015 16:12

Shreeman wrote:Plij to leave punjabis alone. I am not one but the punjabis (except those politicians funded from outside) will want nothing to do with bakistanis. No one is crossing over in punjab. I cant say the same about j&k, and sparse rajasthan, gujarat. thats where they will flood.

do also note mass conversions among the refugees flooding oeurope. And then they are in pig pens. Just like another journey to australia.


Shreeman Ji :

Punjab, being on the India-Pak Border, like Rajasthan and Gujarat, is the Pakistani Illegal Immigrants target. The Ahmedis are a continuous sizable Trickle into Punjab and may be in small numbers in Rajasthan and Gujarat.

It is a fact that Indian Punjabis go totally GAGA when they meet Pakistanis in Punjab especially during the Sporting events. There is an appreciable number of Pakistani visiting India for attending Cricket, Hockey, Wrestling etc. Matches-tournaments and the Pakistani Visa holders do not return to Pakistan but "Go Missing".

These "Illegal Pakistani Immigrants" will eventually get an Indian Ration Card and eventually Indian Passports.

Without doubting the Resident Indian Punjabis' Patriotism it is time that every Pakistani Visitor must give a Sizable Cash deposit which will be refunded to them when they return to Pakistan. There be many other better ways and may be the Punjabis could be requested not to offer Food and Accommodation to these Pakistanis Visitors.

Knowing "Punjabi Hospitality" as I do, I am sure this will be difficult to achieve.

Cheers Image

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11005
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Gagan » 13 Sep 2015 16:55

Lisa wrote:Is this the same Canada?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNrVtXEJjJs

Sorry don't know how to embed video

This news is from the foreign policy paralysis days of Congress I. When they had pontificating fat cat worthies like (the gentleman and the lady) foreign secretaries, an aphetic and uninspiring and directionless leadership.
Even countries like Canada, where retired Pak Mil were making inroads into, were doing things like this!

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11005
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Gagan » 13 Sep 2015 17:13

The pappi jhappi that goes on in Punjab with the visiting Pakistanis is bought by the Pakistanis at great price. The ISI/Pak govt/western embassies, pay for the junkets for the netas and track II ers.
The punjabis here are just being civil and chivalrous.

Otherwise everyone knows exactly how much murder and mayhem the Pakistanis did during partition and during the 80's

A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10625
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby A_Gupta » 13 Sep 2015 17:38

shiv wrote:You can expect this to happen time and again to BR to shut people up. Unfortunately the mod warning above is very non specific and does not give any hint of which or whose post had a problem. I hope that mods have at least sent a pvt msg to the person concerned who cause Pakis some distress.

If mods have not sent such a message please include my compliments for getting Paki knickers in a twist.

Muahahaha :rotfl:


The no-Pingreji on this thread is something I support, because I like to tweet links to posts here and Pingreji makes them incomprehensible to the target audience.

Shreeman
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3764
Joined: 17 Jan 2007 15:31
Location: bositiveneuj.blogspot.com
Contact:

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Shreeman » 13 Sep 2015 18:25

Peregrine wrote:
Shreeman wrote:Plij to leave punjabis alone. I am not one but the punjabis (except those politicians funded from outside) will want nothing to do with bakistanis. No one is crossing over in punjab. I cant say the same about j&k, and sparse rajasthan, gujarat. thats where they will flood.

do also note mass conversions among the refugees flooding oeurope. And then they are in pig pens. Just like another journey to australia.


Shreeman Ji :

Punjab, being on the India-Pak Border, like Rajasthan and Gujarat, is the Pakistani Illegal Immigrants target. The Ahmedis are a continuous sizable Trickle into Punjab and may be in small numbers in Rajasthan and Gujarat.

It is a fact that Indian Punjabis go totally GAGA when they meet Pakistanis in Punjab especially during the Sporting events. There is an appreciable number of Pakistani visiting India for attending Cricket, Hockey, Wrestling etc. Matches-tournaments and the Pakistani Visa holders do not return to Pakistan but "Go Missing".

These "Illegal Pakistani Immigrants" will eventually get an Indian Ration Card and eventually Indian Passports.

Without doubting the Resident Indian Punjabis' Patriotism it is time that every Pakistani Visitor must give a Sizable Cash deposit which will be refunded to them when they return to Pakistan. There be many other better ways and may be the Punjabis could be requested not to offer Food and Accommodation to these Pakistanis Visitors.

Knowing "Punjabi Hospitality" as I do, I am sure this will be difficult to achieve.

Cheers Image


Peregrine,

The punjabis you see at cricket matches going gaga arent the ones living in abohar. Punjab has forever been the target, sikhi didnt happen by chance, nor did khalistan. It is one thing for a couple match participants to become indian accidentally, but entirely different for another partition type migration. I have no doubt that if you can mingle among the people in India then getting the paperwork is trivial. But while RAPElites can do this, via wrestling matches or inter-marriage, ordinary abduls can not. They will end up being cattled like the gurdaspur hero. Migration or no migration. The ground is simply not fertile for them.

The sikh culture is a martial culture, they were created for this purpose and there are still people alive from the time. They arent taking them back. Punjab has its people wall, a much stronger border than anything BSF is putting up. Its strong enough to take any visible onslaughts by refugees.

abhijitm
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3132
Joined: 08 Jun 2006 15:02
Contact:

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby abhijitm » 13 Sep 2015 18:41

^^ I have to agree Shreeman on this. All Sikhs I met so far make me believe Sikhs will not welcome pakistani refugees. Not sure about Punjabi hindus. Many "seculars" among them it seems.

A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10625
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby A_Gupta » 13 Sep 2015 18:49

Some movement on the Karakorum Highway?
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/national/1 ... ip-tunnels
ATTABAD – Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif will inaugurate on Monday newly constructed 24-kilometer portion of Karakorum Highway built by China, five years after a massive landslide had destroyed the road.

Built with cost of $ 275 million, the project consists of five tunnels with total length of seven kilometers, two bridges and 78 culverts.

Tuvaluan
BRFite
Posts: 1816
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Tuvaluan » 13 Sep 2015 18:49

abhijitm wrote:In reality, no, pakistan is not a failed state. Syria, Somalia, Sudan are the examples.


I don't think one can make such claims without defining what they mean by a failed state, which is why I wanted to know what definition of a failed state would have to be applicable to pakistan, when this "refugee flood" happens. So just for example, consider this definition of a failed state from a policy forum -- not saying this is the right definition, but just a definition:

Failed states can no longer perform basic functions such as education, security, or governance, usually due to fractious violence or extreme poverty. Within this power vacuum, people fall victim to competing factions and crime,


Parts of pakistan like NWFP and Balochistan already fall under this category -- pakjab is the only state where any pretense of not being a failed state can be managed by the Paki army/govt. So if 50% of the land mass cannot be provided security, education, or governance by the state's arms, is it only 50% failed? Would we still have to call it a failing state if it is say 75% failed? serious question. I mean, how would one define the threshold -- fraction of people that cannot be supported by the state, and if that is the case, can be keep track of any data that will provide indicators?

I think it is the duty of the Indian govt. reveal the hostility of the paki public to the Indian public at large, if they want the public to cooperate in keeping whatever flood of refugees show up. If Indians believe "they are just like us', there is no reason for they to cooperate in keeping the paki refugees out, as they should be.

A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10625
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby A_Gupta » 13 Sep 2015 18:53

^^^ I think you misread the disorder in NWFP and Balochistan as no longer having basic functions such as education, security, or governance.

To set a benchmark, was India ever a "failed state" in Kashmir or in Punjab? Based on the answer, we can gauge NWFP, FATA, Balochistan in relative terms.

Tuvaluan
BRFite
Posts: 1816
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Tuvaluan » 13 Sep 2015 19:08

At least in NWFP, the writ of the pakistani army and govt. does not hold -- this has been reported for many years now in the paki threads, and there is no data on education or governance, except that it is all under the control of tribal councils for a large portion of that state. So it seems that at least NWFP is a whole lot worse than J&K and Punjab ever where -- I think the Pak army not having authority over large portions of that state is a sign of that part of pakistan being "failed". OF course, there is no reliable data on pakistan at all, since that government has a vested interest in lying about various stats in order to get more aid from various loan/aid agencies.

Tuvaluan
BRFite
Posts: 1816
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Tuvaluan » 13 Sep 2015 19:11

"Shiv wrote: so we ain't gonna see too many coming in from the Pakjab side in a "worst case" scenario. We are sort of "shielded" from Baluchistan and Pakhtunistan by Pakjab - so refugees from there can only enter Pakjab or Sindh or Afghanistan.

But Sindh may be a problem. Sindh is a desert and Karachi has 10% of the Paki population and a lot of refugees from the NW. If there is severe civil war (luck by chance) plus drought/flood leading to famine - then we may see boat people coming from the Shitistan coast.


I agree with Sindh being the main possible conduit of refugees, but this is also a very terrorist infested part of pakistan (well, which part of shitisthan isn't?), so these people certainly cannot be allowed into India as they would pose a security threat. They would have to held off in portions of pakistan itself, which is presumably not defendable by the pakis at that point, since we are talking about paki army itself failing completely if such an outcome were in progress.

A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10625
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby A_Gupta » 13 Sep 2015 19:12

^^^ And I think you mistake NWFP and FATA.
Image

abhijitm
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3132
Joined: 08 Jun 2006 15:02
Contact:

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby abhijitm » 13 Sep 2015 19:17

These parameters of a failed state are good for western world. Asians by nature are very resilient like insects and it takes extraordinary developments to reach the boiling point for an asian to say "no more".

Tuvaluan
BRFite
Posts: 1816
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Tuvaluan » 13 Sep 2015 19:24

I see what you mean, but is it really true that only these FATA areas are "lawless" and the other areas are not.

If one does a google search of any one of these cities with "killing" "police" "security: Bannu, Dera Ismail Khan, Kohat, Charsadda, and Buner. They show a handful of incidents every month reported from these areas of police and security being attacked with IEDs and what not, and it seems like these groups like TTP periodically show the pakistani army their capabilities, and the paki army lets them operate unhindered in a "live and let live" fashion, i.e., the arms of the state are negotiating for space with terrorist groups that they created and controlled.

That is just a step away from having no control over the security of that place, if the armed groups can stop the state from enforcing their will on them using violence against the state.

Tuvaluan
BRFite
Posts: 1816
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Tuvaluan » 13 Sep 2015 19:30

abhijitm wrote:These parameters of a failed state are good for western world. Asians by nature are very resilient like insects and it takes extraordinary developments to reach the boiling point for an asian to say "no more".


that may be true, but is too vague to be useful in terms of gauging the ground situation in pak, no? Humans in general are tougher than many give them credit for, but evaluating a "failed state" is easier done and not directly relevant to resilience of the individual living under the state -- it does say that even if pakistan state fails to deliver security, education etc., the individual will still manage to survive in the predatory society that would evolve from the lack of an entity to enforce its will to preserve things like law and order.

I think it is useful to have a workable set of parameters by which we can see if "Pakistan will be a failed state in X years" can be evaluated based on some parameters.

One easy metric is the number of attacks against armed forces and security forces, and "treaties" between terrorist groups and the paki army -- that is an indicator that the paki state is unable to provide security for the citizens in those areas.

Another is the number of people graduating from school and colleges in those areas -- for example, all of Balochistan has a total of 10 colleges, of which 8 are situated in Quetta. So all that is needed is a meltdown in Quetta for Balochistan to have practically no colleges at all.

gandharva
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2304
Joined: 30 Jan 2008 23:22

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby gandharva » 13 Sep 2015 20:05

Image

Shreeman
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3764
Joined: 17 Jan 2007 15:31
Location: bositiveneuj.blogspot.com
Contact:

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Shreeman » 13 Sep 2015 20:34

I hate to make the wet dreams of failed bakistan even soggier. But this is the reality -- its not happenning.

We accuse, routinely, of the west having designs, fooling and being fooled by sekular agenda, and misreporting events to suit their agenda. We accuse the RAPEs and DIEs of being out of touch with reality. And then we forget how easy it is to be one.

All these western indices of "economic misfortune" and "stress" dont mean squat for bakistan. Consider theefact that you are ruminating Axact inspired statistics published in media that would make DDM look like an IITgraduate. And in a language that is foreign to bakistan -- english. It makes no sense to get a hard on for how poorly bakistan is doing economically. They LIKE eating grass. And like it or not, they will continue to be around as long as china and amrika are around.

A cents per day living is in no way inferior to your million dollars a day living, if your staples (grass in this case) are plentiful and cheap. And they may eat donkeys or rats, but the notion of overthrowing "the system" does not occur in this population. Or they would not have converted to the relijion-bin-piece in the first place.

There is no reliable way of commenting on implosion-bin-septicTank-via-vacuum. And no point in salivating for it. Let them live, the way they want to. Laugh at bulbuddin, sure. Scoff at abduls four coujin wives, why not? Swat at the mosquitos that stray over, mandatory.

However, the track thoo, and people bin beeble contacts OR salivating over the prospect of dijjolution of the ijlamic emirate of bakistan are the same pathetic attempts at ghazwa-e-bakistan.

So cease, or the faithful will give a befitting reply. Via boat, bus, chinese engine driven rail, karakorum highway or, you know, even via the bum.

Gus
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8115
Joined: 07 May 2005 02:30

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Gus » 13 Sep 2015 20:46

good. let's have modi go to all the companies, twitter, yahoo, google etc. they are all there in that few sq. mile..should be just an evenings work for modi, maybe more due to traffic. :roll:

but hey, we can get the entire pakis off the internet !!!! :lol:

krisna
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5772
Joined: 22 Dec 2008 06:36

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby krisna » 13 Sep 2015 20:50

Gus wrote:good. let's have modi go to all the companies, twitter, yahoo, google etc. they are all there in that few sq. mile..should be just an evenings work for modi, maybe more due to traffic. :roll:

but hey, we can get the entire pakis off the internet !!!! :lol:

the internet companies will have huge losses.
( bious bakis own the p*rn industry :mrgreen: ) :((

Tuvaluan
BRFite
Posts: 1816
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Tuvaluan » 13 Sep 2015 20:53

shreeman wrote:I hate to make the wet dreams of failed bakistan even soggier. But this is the reality -- its not happenning.


saar, no wet dreams here on whether they will fail or succeed -- just asking if there is any set of metrics to indicate that the turd-world in pakistan is making its way to the bottom of the pakistan or whether it is just swirling around with no chance of making it out to the septic tank of history (chinese and american largesse are meant to achieve this latter effect, sure).

Seems to me the claim here is that the Chinese and Americans will be successful for ever in the keep the pakistan and its contents from boiling over (pardon the metaphor mixage). I can accept that "we can't tell when the pakistan will burst and splatter its contents all over the neighbourhood" because of the lack of any credible data, but I fail to see how Chinese and American largesse can maintain this stable state forever. Something's got to give...

Viv S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5305
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 00:46

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Viv S » 13 Sep 2015 21:01

Please please tell me Modi plans to visit Twitter & Google too. :twisted:

Tuvaluan
BRFite
Posts: 1816
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Tuvaluan » 13 Sep 2015 21:03

@ejazhaider Homicide units. Capacity building. #kits


On another note, the paki ISI/RAPE tool keeps talking a lot about "capacity building" these days, with shots of one ambulance as "capacity building" for a town like Pindi or Karachi. mouthpiece of paki army does what it is.

A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10625
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby A_Gupta » 13 Sep 2015 21:42

Does Pakistan have a sovereign state, i.e., a state which has the legitimate monopoly on the use of force, enforcement of the law?

It does not.

But that does not mean it is a failed state.

Pakistan is made up of a number of camps, the civilian government with its police, the Pakistani Army, the ISI, the LeT, the various other armed groups -- within limits, each of these has the right to use force. The Pakistani Army is the overall "controller", that arbitrates between groups, and cuts down groups that overstep their bounds. It is almost like a feudal monarch and fiefdoms (fiefdom = "the land over which a person exercises control after vows of vassalage and service to an overlord"), except the division is not into clearly demarcated areas. There is sniping between the various camps to be expected as they jostle to improve their position. That accounts for this observation:

Tuvaluan wrote: They show a handful of incidents every month reported from these areas of police and security being attacked with IEDs and what not, and it seems like these groups like TTP periodically show the pakistani army their capabilities, and the paki army lets them operate unhindered in a "live and let live" fashion, i.e., the arms of the state are negotiating for space with terrorist groups that they created and controlled.


We cannot have it both ways - not only that the Haqqani network is an instrument of the Pakistani Army or ISI, but also that the area controlled by the Haqqani network is outside Pakistani control. The truth is more like the Haqqani network has sworn service to the ISI overlord and so operates within its "fiefdom".

I don't know if there is any equivalent to Pakistan's organization in the modern world.

PS: One could argue that the anti-blasphemy mobs are yet another camp, who are permitted to operate within the context of insults to the Faith.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50757
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby ramana » 13 Sep 2015 22:49

shreeman wrote:I hate to make the wet dreams of failed bakistan even soggier. But this is the reality -- its not happenning.


It took Ottomans ~150 years after Vienna to realize the magnitude of defeat.

1971 is not that long ago in those terms.

Shreeman
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3764
Joined: 17 Jan 2007 15:31
Location: bositiveneuj.blogspot.com
Contact:

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Shreeman » 13 Sep 2015 23:32

Tuvaluan wrote:
shreeman wrote:I hate to make the wet dreams of failed bakistan even soggier. But this is the reality -- its not happenning.


saar, no wet dreams here on whether they will fail or succeed -- just asking if there is any set of metrics to indicate that the turd-world in pakistan is making its way to the bottom of the pakistan or whether it is just swirling around with no chance of making it out to the septic tank of history (chinese and american largesse are meant to achieve this latter effect, sure).

Seems to me the claim here is that the Chinese and Americans will be successful for ever in the keep the pakistan and its contents from boiling over (pardon the metaphor mixage). I can accept that "we can't tell when the pakistan will burst and splatter its contents all over the neighbourhood" because of the lack of any credible data, but I fail to see how Chinese and American largesse can maintain this stable state forever. Something's got to give...


** Deleted for use of 'pingreji' **
Last edited by SSridhar on 14 Sep 2015 11:54, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: Obviously, you have not seen the warning about the use of 'pingreji'. http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=1900165#p1900165. Please edit the post accordingly or it will be removed.


Return to “Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 21 guests