Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05, 2015

saip · Post by **saip** » 22 Sep 2015 20:09

VikasRaina wrote:Can someone clarify - What more concessions other than giving away Kashmir and Siachin ?

You forgot Sir Creek and 100% of Indus waters. Hyderabad and Junagadh, may be.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 22 Sep 2015 20:10

http://nation.com.pk/columns/19-Sep-201 ... ical-study

Holy crap. Sven Smalgand has left a stinky comment in there, as follows, and I can't believe the idiot Pakis printed it - probably the sarcasm and deliberate misspelling confused them!!!

"A fantastic article. Made more so by the excellent quality of English of this retired colonol. Definitely must be much better than the Indian officers. After reading this article, surely Indian military will go from Cold Start to Hot Phart."

Falijee · Post by **Falijee** » 22 Sep 2015 21:12

JE Menon wrote:http://nation.com.pk/columns/19-Sep-201 ... ical-study

Holy crap. Sven Smalgand has left a stinky comment in there, as follows, and I can't believe the idiot Pakis printed it - probably the sarcasm and deliberate misspelling confused them!!!

"A fantastic article. Made more so by the excellent quality of English of this retired colonol. Definitely must be much better than the Indian officers. After reading this article, surely Indian military will go from Cold Start to Hot Phart."

Menon-ji :
Although the (seemingly professional ) article has a disclaimer saying that it does not represent any official view, I suspect that the author want to convey a subtle warning to Indian Military Brass via this article, (and the political leadership) in the form of that - Pak Army is the best army,that Pak Army has the best and latest indigenously ~~produced~~ assembled toys,that Pak Army has nuclear (tactical and strategic) capability with excellent delivery systems etc etc etc and therefore you dare not try this doctrine

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 22 Sep 2015 22:18

Falijee, no doubt you are right. This is probably the (lower rent) version of signalling that the Pakisatan regularly does. Of course, none of it matters much. They are not going to do anything other than terrorism. That's the only thing they know, and the only thing that they know won't result in a comprehensive slap. But it is of diminishing utility. They are in a quandary now, and it shows. Hence the desperation to push any donkey across the LoC. Of course, at the same time without the slightest sense of paradox or irony, they believe they are now in a much better position, having kicked the US out of Afghanistan and getting ever closer to China and now opening up to Russia too.

And no need for formalities boss...

kenop · Post by **kenop** » 22 Sep 2015 23:02

And this article starts

During the prestigious Defense Day celebrations held in GHQ on 6 December 2015, General Raheel Sharif ...

Wholly cow sheet indeed

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 22 Sep 2015 23:21

6th Dec is Babri Masjid Demolition day. Intel agencies remain on high alert during that period. Is this mistake a coincidence?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Sep 2015 23:43

JE Menon wrote:We will hear more crap coming from Pakistan about Indians harming Pakistan. Now it is hackers hurting the ordinary innocent Pakistani folk. It started with bad Indians "voilating" the LoC. Soon it will be some other shite... all intended at garnering international sympathy for poor victim Pakisatan. Probably some idiot had the fine idea of doing a survey or something like that and the results suggested that Pakistan gets no sympathy because it is seen as the aggressive power that initiates violence.

TSP draws inspiration from West especially US.

US has senators so does TSP.

US has hacking attacks from PRC. So does TSP have to have hacking attacks from Indians.

TSP should shut down banking as precaution lest the money gets transferred away!!!

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 23 Sep 2015 00:04

JE Menon wrote:http://nation.com.pk/columns/19-Sep-201 ... ical-study

Holy crap. Sven Smalgand has left a stinky comment in there, as follows, and I can't believe the idiot Pakis printed it - probably the sarcasm and deliberate misspelling confused them!!!

"A fantastic article. Made more so by the excellent quality of English of this retired colonol. Definitely must be much better than the Indian officers. After reading this article, surely Indian military will go from Cold Start to Hot Phart."

Holy mother of cow! Did any one understand the language?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 23 Sep 2015 01:28

** Deleted **

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 23 Sep 2015 01:43

Watch Punjab Border at 1 Minute , the most brightest spot , even visible from space

Mihaylo · Post by **Mihaylo** » 23 Sep 2015 02:15

Gagan wrote:Only posting this here to show the level of indoctrination of average Pakistanis
Pakistani playboy challenges modi for a duel- ROFLMAO

This should be in the BENIS thread. However, I like how after a minute of uncontrollable rambling he advises "Pakistani Bhaiyo, apne par control rakh ..." and he has a funny right leg lift every time he gets too much into it....lol

-M

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Sep 2015 06:52

chaanakya wrote:6th Dec is Babri Masjid Demolition day. Intel agencies remain on high alert during that period. Is this mistake a coincidence?

Too much chaanakya neeti being applied to a typo IMO

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Sep 2015 06:55

ramana wrote:

TSP draws inspiration from West especially US.

US has senators so does TSP.

US has hacking attacks from PRC. So does TSP have to have hacking attacks from Indians.

TSP should shut down banking as precaution lest the money gets transferred away!!!

Ramana there was even one image that showed how Paki signboard on their "national parks" are exactly like those in the US

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Sep 2015 07:22

In the absence of Pakjab and the Paki army, I feel that there would be a loose cultural-economic union between India, current day Pakistan Afghanistan and Baluchistan.

To that extent "Pakistan" as represented by the Paki army and Paki establishment is the key to prevent such cultural/economic union. They know it and their raisin dieter is to try and make money out of what they call as their "strategic location". Unfortunately for them, that location loses much of its value if you exclude India, but that is what they have done. And they have done that by remaining wealthy and strong by means of selling their services to the US and China and Saudi Arabia.

To the US they have projected themselves as pro democracy, pro freedom anti communist. Later they have projected themselves as anti Al Qaeda and anti Taliban. To the Saudis they present themselves as armed Sunni servants willing to do anything. To the Chinese they show themselves as a link to bypass US dominance of sea lanes. Towards India they act like protectors of Muslim honour against Hindu assault.

Every one of these "faces" is fake. But the problem is in convincing all the involved parties that it is fake. India is their worst enemy because India was first off the mark in showing Pakistani ummah/Muslim credentials as fake.

The US and China are both "weak" and Pakis know it. the US has no stomach for prolonged, costly conflict beyond what is required to keep their MIC going. So they outsource to the Paki army - to India's detriment. The Chinese desperately want to break out of what they see as a US stranglehold on the Pacific coast, on sea lanes, on technology. Pakistan serves both as a user of Chinese military tech and and as the promise of bypassing US sea lane denial. The Saudis will use servants from anywhere.

The complicating factor here is something that US and Chinese "weakness" gave rise to. Both nations were desperate to embrace each other against the Soviets and needed Pakistan and allowed Pakistan to get nuclear weapons. Now the US is scared of those weapons and will not stop supporting the Paki army. That is what is causing an intractable status quo in the subcontinent.

India's options are limited. Getting China out of its Pakistan hang up is one option. Being a powerful stabilizing factor in Afghanistan and keeping Islamists out using American cooperation is another. Encouraging the Arab regimes to move out of oil economies and invest in modernity minus their rabid wahhabi sharia would be another stabilizing influence.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 23 Sep 2015 07:33

Err, I think that line visible from space is the Indus River settlements in Paikhanastan.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 23 Sep 2015 07:43

shiv wrote:In the absence of Pakjab and the Paki army, I feel that there would be a loose cultural-economic union between India, current day Pakistan Afghanistan and Baluchistan. India's options are limited. Getting China out of its Pakistan hang up is one option. Being a powerful stabilizing factor in Afghanistan and keeping Islamists out using American cooperation is another. Encouraging the Arab regimes to move out of oil economies and invest in modernity minus their rabid wahhabi sharia would be another stabilizing influence.

Nothing in South Asia which 10 Trillion dollar economy cannot solve. It will be magnet for many maggots but we can be selective.But here Ganza Sharif too endorses Muccharr Sharif.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 23 Sep 2015 08:28

I caught a little in the end, Franklin Delano Roosevelt was elected four times to the US Presidency -- this is, in these Paki's eyes, comparable to extending an Army chief's tenure? And anyway, after FDR, the 22nd Amendment, limiting the presidency to two terms was passed. No amount of large neighboring economy can make these idiots even think straight. There is more chance of them thinking straight if they eat less goat (and donkey) and more vegetables!

milano · Post by **milano** » 23 Sep 2015 08:32

JE Menon wrote:Falijee, no doubt you are right. This is probably the (lower rent) version of signalling that the Pakisatan regularly does. Of course, none of it matters much. They are not going to do anything other than terrorism. That's the only thing they know, and the only thing that they know won't result in a comprehensive slap. But it is of diminishing utility. They are in a quandary now, and it shows. Hence the desperation to push any donkey across the LoC. Of course, at the same time without the slightest sense of paradox or irony, they believe they are now in a much better position, having kicked the US out of Afghanistan and getting ever closer to China and now opening up to Russia too.

And no need for formalities boss...

Sirs and Madams, this is my first post. But I have been following this forum since 1999 as Kargil unfolded and have been a daily follower. The quality of analysis from so many of the posters was (and continues to be) superior to the blithering crap that most Indian media spew . I've not contributed until now because quite frankly I did not think anything I posted would add much value. Now, I am feeling a bit confident.

If I may say so, I think that JE Menon and Falijee are spot on.I have been observing communication patterns emanating from Pakistan over the last few months, and I think that the OpEd pages of the Pakistani rags indeed give a good indication of what is going through Pakistani decision-makers' minds and I agree these articles are being used to signal. I think they are sh*t-scared. Over the last few weeks and months, it would seem that not only is India giving as good as it gets, but that it may be going on the offensive or has provided other clear and tangible indications that the game has changed. After each Pakistani provocation intended to probe Indian redlines, and after our side provides clear warning or response, a cycle of communications emerges. First, the level of nuclear bombast from senior Pakistani officials increases and then subsides. Then, Phase 2 - enter the retired Pakistani soldiers who seem to have been provided the same talking points from the ISI; across Dawn, The News, and The Tribune, different "retd" columnists are spouting: "Belligerent Modifed/Dovalized India dare not miscalculate by attacking us, we have a common foe in terrorism, India has more to lose, Cold Start could lead to nuclear retaliation, we developed tactical battlefield nukes for a reason, <insert quotes from Bismarck, Napoleon, Yogi Berra, etc. to validate the writer's view of the folly of preemptive or defensive offence>, etc. etc. In the last 2 days alone (I will learn soon how to attach links), all of these rags have had eerily similar OpEd columns.

In keeping with recent suggestions that this thread focus more on analysis, less on Pinglish, I hope to add value by researching some of these Pakistani intelligentsia (yes, I realize it's an oxymoron) and helping establish some correlations between unfolding events and what is being published. For example, I'm keenly interested to see what starts to appear, and from whom, in the OpEd columns based on the recent Kerry/Swaraj joint statement.

I look forward to actively participating and hope that my posts contribute to the purpose of this august Forum.

Cheers.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Sep 2015 08:34

I think Indian peaceniks do not understand the game being played by the Paki army. They control access to Afghanistan and Baluchistan want to earn revenue from that control. This would be a legitimate exercise if the revenue earned is shared among Pakistan's people and enrichment of Afghanistan and Baluchistan also occurred because of trade.

But the Pakistan army keeps Afghanistan, Baluchistan and Pakistan's people impoverished, blaming outsiders for the situation.

Indian peaceniks and Amonkey Asha proponents say that "ordinary Pakis" will benefit from trade with India. No. It only benefits the wealthy who pay off sympathetic Indians with hospitality and kindness. The aim of making Afghanistan, Baluchistan and most f the people of Pakistan join the world economy can only be achieved by making the Paki army weaker - partly by denying them the trade and diplomatic relations that helps them and getting them to survive on aid alone - which we need to try and stop (but have not achieved so far)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Sep 2015 08:37

Welcome Milano

Just post the entire url copied from the link and the forum software will do the rest

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Sep 2015 08:45

Milano wrote: I agree these articles are being used to signal. I think they are sh*t-scared. Over the last few weeks and months, it would seem that not only is India giving as good as it gets, but that it may be going on the offensive or has provided other clear and tangible indications that the game has changed. After each Pakistani provocation intended to probe Indian redlines, and after our side provides clear warning or response, a cycle of communications emerges. First, the level of nuclear bombast from senior Pakistani officials increases and then subsides.

Agree.

Pakistanis have good reason to be scared, but it is important for them to use bombast and bluster to say that they are not scared for morale reasons. Their army is stuck on the Western border and in the East they have ragtag jihadis and nukes. If they get into war with India, Pakistan will be finished nukes or no nukes. They need to be scared.

But the Paki army is like a rat that had found a safe corner. That rat will survive in that corner as long as it is fed. The US and Chin are feeding the rat. India must not feed it.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 23 Sep 2015 08:45

Welcome to BRF Milano. Please feel free to cut loose. I'm certain you have already read the forum guidelines.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 23 Sep 2015 08:52

http://www.dawn.com/news/1208655/pcb-to ... -on-series

chairman of the Pakistan Cricket Board (PCB) Shaharyar Khan announced on Tuesday that the Board would no more make request to India for bilateral series, saying the PCB would now only ask the BCCI to give its clear-cut response on the Indo-Pak series.

However, the PCB chairman while talking to media here on Tuesday said that now the Board would only ask the BCCI whether they want to play the series in the UAE or not.

Once, having received the final reply from the Indian board, the PCB would consider its option as to what kind of step it could take in this regard, maintained Shaharyar

PCB has decided to demand that BCCI pay a series against them. If BCCI agrees, then PCB will decide whether to accept BCCI offer.

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 23 Sep 2015 09:06

A_Gupta wrote:There is more chance of them thinking straight if they eat less goat (and donkey) and more vegetables!

Thinking is haram and requires five witnesses, the historic piggies had sworn to eat grass!

(Please to See: Begitables most exbensive onlee! 'Slow cooked Ass' is old Chinese favorite!

)

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 23 Sep 2015 09:09

A_Gupta wrote:... if they eat less goat (and donkey) and more vegetables!

But but they have already done that - they ate lot of grass. Grass is vegetable, right? Still their nukes are no go(at).

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 23 Sep 2015 09:26

shiv wrote:I think Indian peaceniks do not understand the game being played by the Paki army. They control access to Afghanistan and Baluchistan want to earn revenue from that control. This would be a legitimate exercise if the revenue earned is shared among Pakistan's people and enrichment of Afghanistan and Baluchistan also occurred because of trade.

But the Pakistan army keeps Afghanistan, Baluchistan and Pakistan's people impoverished, blaming outsiders for the situation.

Indian peaceniks and Amonkey Asha proponents say that "ordinary Pakis" will benefit from trade with India. No. It only benefits the wealthy who pay off sympathetic Indians with hospitality and kindness. The aim of making Afghanistan, Baluchistan and most f the people of Pakistan join the world economy can only be achieved by making the Paki army weaker - partly by denying them the trade and diplomatic relations that helps them and getting them to survive on aid alone - which we need to try and stop (but have not achieved so far)

Do you really think "Indian peaceniks" do not understand- I think they understand very well, they are paid to do a job and do it well. They don't have an emotional connect or see a future for India. All they want is their cut of pie. Just like MSA many of children/grand kids are Massa, UK etc, they will pretty much cocooned life touring various 5 star hotels across India.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 23 Sep 2015 09:36

Anujan wrote:
PCB has decided to demand that BCCI pay a series against them. If BCCI agrees, then PCB will decide whether to accept BCCI offer.

Loss to PCB as a result of India not responding - $10million.
Loss incurred by PCB because India mixed kirket and politics-$10million
Loss of H&D to Pakis by playing in uAE - $10million
Int'l communities' loss due to tall fair Paki pacemen not being able to show talent - $10million
Postage costs for PCB for sending 100 letters - $150 (100 x $1.50)

BCCI should cough up now.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Sep 2015 10:00

Aditya_V wrote: Do you really think "Indian peaceniks" do not understand- I think they understand very well, they are paid to do a job and do it well. They don't have an emotional connect or see a future for India. All they want is their cut of pie. Just like MSA many of children/grand kids are Massa, UK etc, they will pretty much cocooned life touring various 5 star hotels across India.

There is merit in this argument - but when I want to say something that gives unqualified support to this easy to deny viewpoint, I am missing the data that I know is out there.

I think there are multiple threads of attitudes that ultimately add up to this effect of seemingly traitorous behaviour.

One argument that I have heard very often from Pakistan and echoed by nincompoop Indians is that the armed forces of "both nations" want belligerence while the civvies want peace. This argument is wholly true for Pakistan, but I think many Congress governments including Indira Gandhi and the last Manmouse government were untrusting of the Indian armed forces and believed they would conduct a coup to take over just like Pakistan. This angers me and the Gandhi parvivar needs to be thrown out just for this. I think this attitude towards "Khakis" goes back to the Nehru days but what surprises me is that it still exits among Indians. I may be wrong on specifics but I think people like Krishnamenon may have been untrusting of the forces. And in the last few days we have seen news of how Indira Gandhi was afraid of the confidence of the armed forces in the early 1970s. So this is a stream of thought that seeks to befriend and mollycoddle the Paki civilians and their army masters while blaming the Indian armed forces.

The other are the links between the Lutyens/Delhi crowd and Pakistan in a bunch of well dressed, well spoken people of whom Barkha Dutt along with Dogvijay and his TV personality new wife and Mani Shankar Aiyer would be prime examples. Manish Tewari is another example of the sly slime that would likely blame the Indian armed forces before condemning Pakis because of the close cultural connections they feel with Pakistan and the alienation they feel with a whole class of Indians who call themselves Hindu. If anyone watches what is happening on billboards and TV now - Congress has selected a bunch of good looking chicks to represent their case while the BJP is made to look like aggressive men representing extremism. But I digress.

The third link are the family connections between Indian Muslims and Pakistan and cross border relations in Punjab that seek to support and enrich their friends and contacts.

Ultimately the structure of the Paki army/elite nexus is such that the above mentioned groups need to be made irrelevant and Pakistan gets nothing but hostility from India until their army is enfeebled.

arun · Post by **arun** » 23 Sep 2015 10:27

X Posted from the “India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II” thread.

arun wrote:In an unfriendly to India act, the US grants visa to Islamic Republic of Pakistan backed Mohammadden separatist, Syed Ali Shah Geelani.

How come those seeking to separate from India on the flimsy basis of following Mohammaddenism have such an easy time getting visa’s to the US when an elected Indian constitutional representative like our current Prime Minister Narendra Modi was for years denied an US Visa?

Ahead of US visit, Centre suspends Hurriyat leader Syed Ali Geelani's passport for 4 weeks

Likely the grant of a Visa by the US to Mohammadden separatist Geelani was a nod and a wink from the US to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan not to get too perturbed by the U.S.-India Joint Declaration on Combatting Terrorism and that the US will take care of her Major Non NATA ally’s interests, a few diplomatically harsh words notwithstanding.

Meanwhile I cannot see the U.S.-India Joint Declaration on Combatting Terrorism on the US State Departments website which was announced yesterday in the US. Result of a lack of diligent search on my part, inefficiency on the part of the US State Department or something all the more sinister and in the nature of US perfidy targeting India? Has anyone else perchance spotted it on the US State Department website and if so can the please post the link?

In the interim, FWIW, the full text of the cannot be found by me U.S.-India Joint Declaration on Combatting Terrorism on State Department website as posted on our Ministry of External affairs website.

Note Islamic Republic of Pakistan specific content:

Reiterate the threat posed by entities such as Al-Qa’ida and its affiliates, Lashkar-e-Tayibba, Jaish-e-Mohammad, D Company, and the Haqqani Network, and other regional groups that seek to undermine stability in South Asia;

Call for Pakistan to bring to justice the perpetrators of the 2008 Mumbai attack;

Strongly condemn the July 27, 2015 terrorist attack in Gurdaspur, Punjab, and August 5, 2015, attack in Udhampur, Jammu and Kashmir;

From our MEA here:

U.S.-India Joint Declaration on Combatting Terrorism

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 23 Sep 2015 10:55

shiv wrote:I think Indian peaceniks do not understand the game being played by the Paki army. They control access to Afghanistan and Baluchistan want to earn revenue from that control. This would be a legitimate exercise if the revenue earned is shared among Pakistan's people and enrichment of Afghanistan and Baluchistan also occurred because of trade.
...

I think that, for a country of Pakistan's size, simply being a crossroads economy, like today's Singapore, Dubai, or old-time Mecca-Madina, is not a legitimate aspiration, it is more like highway bandit thinking. They would have to have value-adding innovation to generate employment for 200M+ abduls, which a glorified transit depot cannot do, that too when the abduls are diligently trained in pakistan studies and madarsa math and lahori logic.

Reality is that, even if pakis' wildest fantasies of CPEC-geepec, connectivity with central asia etc., all were to come true(with or without isolation of India), they are in no position to benefit their masses. Neither the masses nor the elite have the preparation, or even the attitude needed to undertake such preparation.

There is not going to be a prosperous, "ordinary country with quirks" type of pakistan, ever, unless they make drastic changes like, for example, abolish Islam, and then carry out patient, hard and creative work for a couple of generations. Somehow I don't see that happening.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Sep 2015 11:20

KLNMurthy wrote:
shiv wrote:I think Indian peaceniks do not understand the game being played by the Paki army. They control access to Afghanistan and Baluchistan want to earn revenue from that control. This would be a legitimate exercise if the revenue earned is shared among Pakistan's people and enrichment of Afghanistan and Baluchistan also occurred because of trade.
...
I think that, for a country of Pakistan's size, simply being a crossroads economy, like today's Singapore, Dubai, or old-time Mecca-Madina, is not a legitimate aspiration, it is more like highway bandit thinking. They would have to have value-adding innovation to generate employment for 200M+ abduls, which a glorified transit depot cannot do, that too when the abduls are diligently trained in pakistan studies and madarsa math and lahori logic.

Reality is that, even if pakis' wildest fantasies of CPEC-geepec, connectivity with central asia etc., all were to come true(with or without isolation of India), they are in no position to benefit their masses. Neither the masses nor the elite have the preparation, or even the attitude needed to undertake such preparation.

There is not going to be a prosperous, "ordinary country with quirks" type of pakistan, ever, unless they make drastic changes like, for example, abolish Islam, and then carry out patient, hard and creative work for a couple of generations. Somehow I don't see that happening.

We just have to make huge walls, minimize people to people virus contact (of both physical and mental kinds) and maintain and exercise significant deterrence (arty, covert ops, proper COIN, humint to snuff out ISI cells) and grow our economy at a blistering pace. In a decade or two, TSP would have become such a mess that the four fathers will be begging for India's help and advice as versus telling us what to do. The biggest jerks we have to be careful of are the ISI pasand types in India who regard votebank politics as a natural fit and the left/MSM who are both heavily indoctrinated to be proPakistan.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 23 Sep 2015 11:35

And, this is all, 'just' what india needs to do....you sir are an optimist

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Sep 2015 12:04

Actually its realism....based on seeing what has worked and what has not... If you have better ideas, I'm all ears.. otherwise, its best to do what's doable instead of engaging in masturbatory peace talks which is what we have excelled in for most of 60 odd years with an occasional war thrown in, while our elite engaged in looting the country dry..i'd rather be an optimist rather than tuck tail and engage in ceaseless accommodation which is our left seems to excel in..whilst howling at the victims of terrorism.. its their hypocrisy plus the C-systems unabashed corruption which has landed us in the mess we are in..

What I propose will be a step up from what we are doing today and will lead to many positive changes in our strategic position.

Its not impossible to achieve either.. many steps are being put in place as we talk.. the current dispensation clearly understands the concept of iterative movement.. they are working to put a solid admin and political reach india wide and seize political power in all the Hindi heartland states to begin with... which means votebank and appeasement ISI pasand politics from the political side are minimized.. building strong relations with neighbours (Bangla/Nepal in particular - blank check to latter @ time of earthquake, we need to keep some visa system in place for the former to get all hitherto undocumental legals into our system, the Aadhar system has shown we can scale biometrics as necessary even despite the waste/corruption), the focus on serviceability (IAF Su-30s, IA ammo holdings), the calibrated deterrence @ border with BSF giving 3x back.. IA building up capabilities.. diplomatic outreach to make India's economic and strategic importance grow...
The importance of having a nationalist govt at the helm can't be understated.. the italian and her clan were clearly interested in a weak India with weak systems as it allowed personal enrichment and conversion industry leading to further communalization to go unchecked... TSP killing Indians was an acceptable collateral damage.. after all when you have SPG covering your own skin, what does it matter if a bomb attack hits trains etc.

The current admin thinks different and if they can swing 2019 as well things will be much different.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 23 Sep 2015 13:50

>>We just have to make huge walls, minimize people to people virus contact (of both physical and mental kinds) and maintain and exercise significant deterrence (arty, covert ops, proper COIN, humint to snuff out ISI cells) and grow our economy at a blistering pace. In a decade or two, TSP would have become such a mess that the four fathers will be begging for India's help and advice as versus telling us what to do. The biggest jerks we have to be careful of are the ISI pasand types in India who regard votebank politics as a natural fit and the left/MSM who are both heavily indoctrinated to be proPakistan.

I don't think it is possible to state the required Pakistan policy (and in fact what is actually happening to some extent) in a more succinct and clear way. Simply brilliant KM. I'll be using this if you don't mind.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Sep 2015 14:14

KLNMurthy wrote: I think that, for a country of Pakistan's size, simply being a crossroads economy, like today's Singapore, Dubai, or old-time Mecca-Madina, is not a legitimate aspiration, it is more like highway bandit thinking.

It is exactly highway bandit thinking. Singapore does not have a pirate mafia oligarchy that controls access and corners all the rent collected. Dubai has a Sheikh oligarchy but they spread the money around among their own people. But if a hypothetical coherent well functioning Pakistan demanded a reasonable fee for transit, no one would be able to refuse as long as goods reached their destination. What the Paki army bandit mafia does is allow only what they want - and disallow everything else. They do not allow free trade with Afghanistan for example. They are IMO shooting themselves in the foot. Not that I care, but they survive because of the services they offer to four-fathers.

As I see it the Indian subcontinent including Pakistan and Afghanistan and Baluchistan are one economic unit. If you exclude India from this unit all the others will get impoverished. The Pakistan army is perfectly capable of allowing impoverishment of Afghans, Baluchis and their own people as long as they get paid. And they get paid for selective transport of material and services for the US and China.

Other than rice, cotton and footballs, Pakistan simply does not have anything for export (aside from terrorists and sunni militias). All of Pakistan cannot survive on the handouts that the US, China and KSA give them. The handouts are given to the Paki army to do specific jobs and the Paki army keeps the loot - even from its own people. They are the highway bandits. There is, in consequence, impoverishment of Pakis, Afghans and Baluchis. And the people of PoK I guess.

If Pakistan was a "normal coherent state" that did not survive on four-father handouts the only way it could earn money is by trade and transit agreements. There is nothing else. And its biggest consumer would be India and the biggest rent payer for transit to Afghanistan would be India again. The Pakistan army avoids this Indian pot of gold for ideological reasons, but is kept alive by four-fathers. Therefore it is extremely important for India not to feed these highway bandits with the temptation of "normal trade relations" with India. It will only make them richer while they blackmail us.

I think it is because Indians in high places do not see Pakistan as a oligarchy of highway bandits that they imagine that trade with Pakistan is a good thing. The highway bandits need to be replaced by a system that feeds and enriches Afghanistan and Baluchistan and not just the Pakistan army. That can never happen under the current scheme of US/Chinese funding of the army which will keep them in power indefinitely

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Sep 2015 14:37

When I think about the "Lutyens" crowd just before independence It appears to me that partition divided them into two groups. One group became the elite rulers of Pakistan and the other group were part of the ruling Congress party and stayed in Delhi. So the cultural memes of the democratic rulers of India and the "Muslims first" rulers of Pakistan were exactly the same. The same cultural memes have been preserved for nearly 70 years. There is a sense of entitlement to rule - on both sides. There is a degree of contempt for the hoi polloi - a nose crinkling tolerance while keeping a distance. In Pakistan it is the Sindhis, Baluchis and Pakthuns. Among the Indian (mainly Congress) crowd a non Punjabi, non Kashmiri, non UP/non Hindi belt crowd are seen as outsiders. But it is more difficult to implement this in India. However it is easy to set apart Hindus. That uppity ruling crowd was never Hindu. it was always Muslim, British or secular Indian who had discarded his Hindu roots.

Part of the reason for Indians being so sympathetic to Pakistan are the links between this minority Lutyens elite of Delhi and the RAPE class of Pakistan. At partition we had the same society that went to Pakistan, fully embracing their Muslim background and a set of Indians who has rejected an overt Hindu background singing secularism. This latter group of Indians cannot believe that Pakistan is throwing rabid Islam at India. For them Islam is Mirza/Ghalib and culture. Opposing that is dubbed as Hindutvavadi. This sympathy for Pakistan however is pretty much non existent in south, east and western India.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 23 Sep 2015 15:01

>>I think that, for a country of Pakistan's size, simply being a crossroads economy, like today's Singapore, Dubai, or old-time Mecca-Madina, is not a legitimate aspiration, it is more like highway bandit thinking.

Exactly right, and that is precisely what it is. Note that in none of Pakistan's grand strategic visions is there a role for the actual people of Pakistan to be anything but terrorists, or terrorist supporters. There is no vision for the improvement of the people, no real human resources development happening.

Why is that? Partly it is because the elite (which shiv has categorised neatly above) have convinced the people that they are already in a state of near Islamic perfection, because after all Pakistan is the land of the pure and how much more can one aspire to be than to be a Muslim. But the unspoken corollary is that this elite does not quite feel that way themselves, so they send their children to what passes for secular schools (Beaconhouse and a few others), essentially meaning they are equally rabid, but richer and the girls don't have to cover their hair all the time. They then send them on to the US/England/Australia/Canada etc. so that they imbibe the right manners in dealing with the people they will deal with when they go on to become bureaucrats and military officers.

These are the bandits, and for them the people of Pakistan is nothing but a resource like oil to be used for cannon fodder or pipeline fodder, or infrastructure fodder. These people who live in Pakistan and serve as fodder are not Pakistanis, they are the Islamobots that are used by the real Pakistanis (the Punjabi elite with a sprinkling of those from other provinces) for their ends. This is the core of the kabila that ramana has been talking about for years now.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 23 Sep 2015 15:02

^ I think sympathy for a individual Pakistani must not be misconstrued as sympathy for Pakistan.
Most of the Indians feel bad if a Pakistani gets killed (heck some even felt bad far Kassab),
but no one will bat a eyelid if a Nuke is dropped on Pakistan.
Just my thoughts.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 23 Sep 2015 15:27

shiv wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote: I think that, for a country of Pakistan's size, simply being a crossroads economy, like today's Singapore, Dubai, or old-time Mecca-Madina, is not a legitimate aspiration, it is more like highway bandit thinking.
It is exactly highway bandit thinking. Singapore does not have a pirate mafia oligarchy that controls access and corners all the rent collected. Dubai has a Sheikh oligarchy but they spread the money around among their own people. But if a hypothetical coherent well functioning Pakistan demanded a reasonable fee for transit, no one would be able to refuse as long as goods reached their destination. What the Paki army bandit mafia does is allow only what they want - and disallow everything else. They do not allow free trade with Afghanistan for example. They are IMO shooting themselves in the foot. Not that I care, but they survive because of the services they offer to four-fathers.

Every Paki thread's first post has a link to Margaret-Bourke White interview with Jinnah.
It is the first link.
An excerpt:

What plans did he have for the industrial development of the country? Did he hope to enlist technical or financial assistance from America?

"America needs Pakistan more than Pakistan needs America," was Jinnah's reply. "Pakistan is the pivot of the world, as we are placed" -- he revolved his long forefinger in bony circles -- "the frontier on which the future position of the world revolves." He leaned toward me, dropping his voice to a confidential note. "Russia," confided Mr. Jinnah, "is not so very far away."

Nothing has changed. Highway bandits - 2 words which summarize their economic importance.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 23 Sep 2015 16:20

shiv wrote:When I think about the "Lutyens" crowd just before independence It appears to me that partition divided them into two groups. One group became the elite rulers of Pakistan and the other group were part of the ruling Congress party and stayed in Delhi. So the cultural memes of the democratic rulers of India and the "Muslims first" rulers of Pakistan were exactly the same.

If culture includes one's political outlook then that is simply not true. The Indian side has been committed to the "one person - one vote" forever. Pakistan's history can be summarized as the consequences of fleeing from "one man - one vote". The closest the Indian leadership came to disrespecting the votes of the people was Indira Gandhi's Emergency.

The same cultural memes have been preserved for nearly 70 years. There is a sense of entitlement to rule - on both sides. There is a degree of contempt for the hoi polloi - a nose crinkling tolerance while keeping a distance.

Since, e.g., whether it be the EU or Washington, DC, or Beijing, there is always a contempt for the hoi polloi, so to be making a meaningful distinction, one has to distinguish the degrees of this contempt. In Pakistan, the entire East Pakistan was hoi polloi. Jinnah is famous for his tirade about ill-dressed Congressites; and his break with the Congress was in large part because of Mahatma Gandhi's throwing open the membership of Congress to anyone who paid a 2 annas membership fee. Yes, Nehru was against states organized on a linguistic basis - but he eventually yielded to the popular demand; while Jinnah himself set the seeds of Bangla separatism by his insistence on the iron grip of Urdu.

In short, you are mangling history to explain a phenomenon, which is far more complex and many-sided.
There is some of this: I would not doubt LK Advani's nationalism, and yet:
http://www.sify.com/news/advani-s-emoti ... fhcsi.html
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1050605/a ... 828954.asp

There was a common heritage, and I'd say, until the 1965 war, after which contact really cut off with the Pakistani side, this persisted. It is only people who reached adulthood after that that are really ready to see Pakistan as alien.

Then there is the fact that Leftists are sympathetic to Islamists, whether it be the Communist Party of India helping the Muslim League draft its election manifesto in the crucial 1946 elections, or whether it is the modern, in-America Sarah Haider, http://arunsmusings.blogspot.com/2015/0 ... cript.html telling us that ""....an audience on the Left now frightens me nearly as much as an audience of Islamists does."
As it is a universal phenomenon, its expression in India does not need any special explanation.

There are intellectual fashions/trends from the West that infect India's copy cat intellectuals, combined with the anti-intellectualism of the Sangh Parivar (Koenraad Elst has some analysis of this, I believe).

There is the extremely successful facade Pakistanis wear of being liberal, as well. There is also the confusion between individual people, and the emergent politics of a people in a large group, when real power and responsibility is involved.

There is simply the fact that India's capital is in Delhi, close to Punjab and far from Assam, rather than Pataliputra or Kolkata as in some previous ages, which makes Pakistan "closer". It is visible even on BRF, where despite the huge cultural affinities with peoples all around the Indian Ocean/Bay of Bengal rim, the "Look East" and now "Act East" mostly elicits a yawn. IMO, just giving Pakistan mindshare is to support it in some way -- the goal of a lot of what Pakistan does is simply to have mindshare - it is a measure of their honor and dignity.

And so on. There certainly is much more, pardon this hastily written note.