Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05, 2015

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JE Menon
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby JE Menon » 23 Sep 2015 18:06

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F35WoTC2dko

Hudson Haqqani - Discussion Programme on whether 50 years after 1965 war relations have changed.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby ramana » 23 Sep 2015 18:52

A_Gupta, All generalizations are general including this. So shiv has painted a broad brushstroke picture which captures the perfidy that TSP is. To find some brush strokes are not fine enough is missing the forest for the trees.

Yes most of India thinking folks focus on TSP which is near term threat and prevents India from reaching its full potential in Indian sub-continent and then on China which constrains India in Asia at-least in East Asia.
It has little to do with Delhi being close to TSP border.

Can't "Look East" when the near term danger is from "West of India".


Look East is futuristic and some people rightly focus on that but pressing issue is to focus on TSP and mitigate and eliminate it.

Also folks from Google books download Mueller's "Loom of History" which focuses on Ottoman and Anatolia.




Shiv, Please try to get hold of Emma Duncan's "Breaking the Curfew" which analyses TSP in horizontal and vertical slices.
Will try to post an on-line link .

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Anujan » 23 Sep 2015 19:05

Elites are one part of the equation: I think a large bunch of SDREs, either through ignorance or through malice fall victim to "Just like us" line of thinking. I believe that there is a strong cultural component to that. There are two kinds of "just like us" thinking -- one that Pakistan discourages and one that Pakistan encourages.

The one that Pakistan discourages:
This is a well known effect in sociology, (I do not readily recollect the name of it), where we observe people near us and generalize our observations to the entire society or network. Like assuming "every one of my friends speaks reasonable english, it must be the case everyone in India speaks reasonable english" or "everyone I know has a smartphone and internet, it must be the case that everybody has smartphone and internet".

Mango SDREs look around themselves and therefore think that a typical person desires peace, wants to go to work, earn money, send kids to school, come home and watch movie songs on TV. They cannot fathom that there are some people who dont want peace, who dont want to work, who dont want to send kids to school and think movies and music are to be banned. I think part of it is cultural -- we are taught that everyone is like us, vasudhaiva kutumbakam and all that. While they are taught that we are different, we are to be converted or to be bull-cuttled. This is the first fallacy of false equivalence.

The one that Pakistan encourages:
The second fallacy of false equivalence is that of degree. Take a made up example: A ship gets adrift, and 10 people on board die of starvation and you will see headlines screaming "Bengal famine aboard the ship!!!". Well, not really. 10 people dying is a sad thing, but 4 million died in Bengal famine. They are not really the same thing.

People dont realize this false equivalence. This kind of false equivalence Pakistan encourages. The result is that SDREs insist that there is Talibanization in India (well not really. Talibanization is not just holding slightly more extreme views than mainstream. Talibanization is changing the mainstream to a degree that law and order collapses and people are ruled by someone's interpretation of what worked in the 7th century. A total collapse of society and every form of social progress in the past 1300 years). Same thing about Hawks being on both sides of the border and Armed forces not wanting peace. A single incident of some tiny protest -- like Armed forces wanting better pensions -- and you have the so called Pakistani elite coming out of the wood work to declare that armed forces of both countries are rattling the civilians. Well not really: TFTAs hung a serving prime minister, retired SDREs want an increase in pension.

Pakistan encourages this equivalence and SDREs fall for that. "There is terrorism on both sides of the border", "Extremism is a common problem in South Asia" and things like that.

I think the former will cease as time goes by. Part of the reason is ofcourse terror from Pakistan. It used to be the case that if something happens, you'd read it in the Indian express the next day, about some bomb episode in some far off city. That used to be the case even for 1993 mumbai blasts. Now you hear about it instantly. India is mixing, so everyone knows someone near and dear in most major cities. This is where Al-Bakistan miscalculated. Instead of the 7th century observation that terror will break an enemy's resolve, in the 21st century, terror simply pisses off the enemy and stirs them from complacency.

The latter though is more insidious. Mostly it is the media that is perpetrating it. Like "I went to Al-Bakistan and everyone liked me". Well Daniel Pearl went to Al-Bakistan and got his throat slit. This is what should be pointed out and reinforced again and again.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby KLNMurthy » 23 Sep 2015 19:24

Karan M wrote:...

We just have to make huge walls, minimize people to people virus contact (of both physical and mental kinds) and maintain and exercise significant deterrence (arty, covert ops, proper COIN, humint to snuff out ISI cells) and grow our economy at a blistering pace. In a decade or two, TSP would have become such a mess that the four fathers will be begging for India's help and advice as versus telling us what to do. The biggest jerks we have to be careful of are the ISI pasand types in India who regard votebank politics as a natural fit and the left/MSM who are both heavily indoctrinated to be proPakistan.

This is a good formula. We should implement it unilaterally, paying no heed to the four fathers. There are bigger things at stake than international vindication.

Quarantine is needed, not only because of the normal geopolitical factors (nothing normal about pakistan-NNAP) but also to keep away what I can only call moral contamination from pakistan. As a free people, it is weird for us to be thinking on the lines of "moral contamination ", but, NNAP. I think we in India have a fight on our hands to keep pakiness in check(added later: see Anujan's post on the challenge of this pakiness, specifically lahori logic) and we can only do that by stomping on bandit-thinking and lahori logic wherever and whenever we find it, and not treat the main vectors of pakiness as normal humans.

It is also a workable formula.

Pakistan will, in fact, help us to erect these ideological barriers, if only we would let it. Observe how each time we try to get closer, be it MFN or movies, visas or aman ki asha , or official dialogue (if SA talks had gone forward, there would have been no reason for India to reject the comprehensive dialogue, which is supposedly what pakistan wanted all along) the pakis find a way to sabotage it, as soon as it starts to look like it might yield serious results.

We are natural moral antagonists. Our struggle as Indians is to flush the pakiness out of our system, over time. Their journey is firmly on the road to more concentrated and perfect pakiness. We are trains passing in opposite directions. For a time, it may look like they are overlapping with each other, but it is an illusion that they are somehow same or similar at the core.

About shiv's idea of India, Pakistan, baluchistan and Afghanistan being a natural unit, well that may be true, except that the creation of physical pakistan was a major event that exposed a fissure between pakiness and normal-ness. We can never close that fissure, nor should we want to. We have to live with a broken version of this natural unit. Chabahar-Delaram is crucial for this reason. We should expect the pakis and their supporters to fight us over it.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Paul » 23 Sep 2015 19:33

Image

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby KLNMurthy » 23 Sep 2015 19:48

shiv wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote:I think that, for a country of Pakistan's size, simply being a crossroads economy, like today's Singapore, Dubai, or old-time Mecca-Madina, is not a legitimate aspiration, it is more like highway bandit thinking.

It is exactly highway bandit thinking. Singapore does not have a pirate mafia oligarchy that controls access and corners all the rent collected. Dubai has a Sheikh oligarchy but they spread the money around among their own people. But if a hypothetical coherent well functioning Pakistan demanded a reasonable fee for transit, no one would be able to refuse as long as goods reached their destination. What the Paki army bandit mafia does is allow only what they want - and disallow everything else. They do not allow free trade with Afghanistan for example. They are IMO shooting themselves in the foot. Not that I care, but they survive because of the services they offer to four-fathers.


india is blessed that pakis are ideologically blinded from seeing the logic of exploiting the hardworking Indian hinterland.

Given the way partition and its fallout have transpired, we need to put away any concept of an akhanda or greater bharat, because it would imply opening ourselves up to the toxin that is pakistan. We can and should find a way to integrate Afghanistan--and baluchistan, whenever that time comes--but it is vital to keep pakistan out of it.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby KLNMurthy » 23 Sep 2015 19:52

shiv wrote:When I think about the "Lutyens" crowd just before independence It appears to me that partition divided them into two groups. One group became the elite rulers of Pakistan and the other group were part of the ruling Congress party and stayed in Delhi. So the cultural memes of the democratic rulers of India and the "Muslims first" rulers of Pakistan were exactly the same. The same cultural memes have been preserved for nearly 70 years. There is a sense of entitlement to rule - on both sides. There is a degree of contempt for the hoi polloi - a nose crinkling tolerance while keeping a distance. In Pakistan it is the Sindhis, Baluchis and Pakthuns. Among the Indian (mainly Congress) crowd a non Punjabi, non Kashmiri, non UP/non Hindi belt crowd are seen as outsiders. But it is more difficult to implement this in India. However it is easy to set apart Hindus. That uppity ruling crowd was never Hindu. it was always Muslim, British or secular Indian who had discarded his Hindu roots.

Part of the reason for Indians being so sympathetic to Pakistan are the links between this minority Lutyens elite of Delhi and the RAPE class of Pakistan. At partition we had the same society that went to Pakistan, fully embracing their Muslim background and a set of Indians who has rejected an overt Hindu background singing secularism. This latter group of Indians cannot believe that Pakistan is throwing rabid Islam at India. For them Islam is Mirza/Ghalib and culture. Opposing that is dubbed as Hindutvavadi. This sympathy for Pakistan however is pretty much non existent in south, east and western India.

Excellent articulation of what I have been struggling to understand and explain--the evidence of our own inner pakiness.

It also explains, in an OT way, another aspect of why both pakis and India's ancien regime hate Modi with such a visceral passion.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Paul » 23 Sep 2015 19:58

General Dhillon, the other hero who saved Punjab for India.

Image

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joginder_Singh_Dhillon

Lt Gen J.S. Dhillon was the Commander of XI Corps which was responsible for the Punjab sector during the 1965 Indo-Pak War. He is credited in producing and conducting the battle plan that destroyed or captured over 100 superior Pakistani battle tanks, turning a potentially dangerous defeat into an amazing victory, as the Pakistani tanks were poised to head for the Beas Bridge and then on to Delhi.

"The decisive tank battle of Assal Uttar, near Khem Karan, on September 10 does bear telling. Indian units hid their Sherman tanks 500 metres apart in a U-shaped formation in tall and unharvested sugarcane fields, and snared the enemy s vastly superior Patton tanks into this ambush, annihilating them to the last tank and deciding the outcome of the war.

The destruction of Pakistan s armoured pride and the casualties it suffered, including an artillery brigadier and many other senior officers killed or surrendered, destroyed the enemy s morale. At Assal Uttar, 97 enemy tanks of which 72 were Pattons and 25 Chafees and Shermans were destroyed, damaged or captured intact, of which 28 Pattons were in perfect running condition.

Facing the very modern M-48 Pattons were India s old and inferior Centurions and Shermans outgunned, outdistanced and far fewer in number. And yet Indian losses at Khem Karan were only 32 tanks"

Frank Moraes, the editor in chief of the Indian Express, who spent time on the frontlines, wrote: "I was fortunate to spend some time with Lt General J.S. Dhillon, the corps commander in this sector, and to note and understand how greatly the spirit of all, from jawans to divisional commanders, depends on the calibre of the corps commander. Jogi Dhillon is an enthusiastic, intelligent soldier with a physical vigour, drive and combativeness which enable him to be extraordinarily mobile over his wide command and an inspiring presence and example to his officers and men."

Lt. Gen Dhillon was awarded the Padma Bhushan for his role in the 1965 war and was promoted to Army Commander of the Central Command, from where he retired on August 4, 1970.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby KLNMurthy » 23 Sep 2015 20:02

A_Gupta wrote:
shiv wrote:When I think about the "Lutyens" crowd just before independence It appears to me that partition divided them into two groups. One group became the elite rulers of Pakistan and the other group were part of the ruling Congress party and stayed in Delhi. So the cultural memes of the democratic rulers of India and the "Muslims first" rulers of Pakistan were exactly the same.


If culture includes one's political outlook then that is simply not true. The Indian side has been committed to the "one person - one vote" forever. Pakistan's history can be summarized as the consequences of fleeing from "one man - one vote". The closest the Indian leadership came to disrespecting the votes of the people was Indira Gandhi's Emergency.

The same cultural memes have been preserved for nearly 70 years. There is a sense of entitlement to rule - on both sides. There is a degree of contempt for the hoi polloi - a nose crinkling tolerance while keeping a distance.


Since, e.g., whether it be the EU or Washington, DC, or Beijing, there is always a contempt for the hoi polloi, so to be making a meaningful distinction, one has to distinguish the degrees of this contempt. In Pakistan, the entire East Pakistan was hoi polloi. Jinnah is famous for his tirade about ill-dressed Congressites; and his break with the Congress was in large part because of Mahatma Gandhi's throwing open the membership of Congress to anyone who paid a 2 annas membership fee. Yes, Nehru was against states organized on a linguistic basis - but he eventually yielded to the popular demand; while Jinnah himself set the seeds of Bangla separatism by his insistence on the iron grip of Urdu.

In short, you are mangling history to explain a phenomenon, which is far more complex and many-sided.
There is some of this: I would not doubt LK Advani's nationalism, and yet:
http://www.sify.com/news/advani-s-emoti ... fhcsi.html
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1050605/a ... 828954.asp

There was a common heritage, and I'd say, until the 1965 war, after which contact really cut off with the Pakistani side, this persisted. It is only people who reached adulthood after that that are really ready to see Pakistan as alien.

Then there is the fact that Leftists are sympathetic to Islamists, whether it be the Communist Party of India helping the Muslim League draft its election manifesto in the crucial 1946 elections, or whether it is the modern, in-America Sarah Haider, http://arunsmusings.blogspot.com/2015/0 ... cript.html telling us that ""....an audience on the Left now frightens me nearly as much as an audience of Islamists does."
As it is a universal phenomenon, its expression in India does not need any special explanation.

There are intellectual fashions/trends from the West that infect India's copy cat intellectuals, combined with the anti-intellectualism of the Sangh Parivar (Koenraad Elst has some analysis of this, I believe).

There is the extremely successful facade Pakistanis wear of being liberal, as well. There is also the confusion between individual people, and the emergent politics of a people in a large group, when real power and responsibility is involved.

There is simply the fact that India's capital is in Delhi, close to Punjab and far from Assam, rather than Pataliputra or Kolkata as in some previous ages, which makes Pakistan "closer". It is visible even on BRF, where despite the huge cultural affinities with peoples all around the Indian Ocean/Bay of Bengal rim, the "Look East" and now "Act East" mostly elicits a yawn. IMO, just giving Pakistan mindshare is to support it in some way -- the goal of a lot of what Pakistan does is simply to have mindshare - it is a measure of their honor and dignity.

And so on. There certainly is much more, pardon this hastily written note.


Same here, can't resist hasty response.

Clearly, partition was about "something ", some radical difference of opinion about things including electoral democracy.

But differing in one aspect doesn't mean they differed in all aspects. Plenty of paki memes remain in the lutyensites. Evidence is overwhelming that they are not egalitarians, despite being committed to electoral democracy.

The lutyensites' similarly in snobbery with other elites of the world doesn't necessarily mean that their snobbery comes from the same place as everyone else. Independent evolution of similar features is an established fact.

Lutyensites' brand of snobbery is paki in its provenance IMO.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby shiv » 23 Sep 2015 20:37

A_Gupta wrote:If culture includes one's political outlook then that is simply not true. The Indian side has been committed to the "one person - one vote" forever. Pakistan's history can be summarized as the consequences of fleeing from "one man - one vote". The closest the Indian leadership came to disrespecting the votes of the people was Indira Gandhi's Emergency.

Since, e.g., whether it be the EU or Washington, DC, or Beijing, there is always a contempt for the hoi polloi, so to be making a meaningful distinction, one has to distinguish the degrees of this contempt. In Pakistan, the entire East Pakistan was hoi polloi. Jinnah is famous for his tirade about ill-dressed Congressites; and his break with the Congress was in large part because of Mahatma Gandhi's throwing open the membership of Congress to anyone who paid a 2 annas membership fee. Yes, Nehru was against states organized on a linguistic basis - but he eventually yielded to the popular demand; while Jinnah himself set the seeds of Bangla separatism by his insistence on the iron grip of Urdu.


I'll take these two paras together. Politics is not culture at least with respect to what I wrote. The biggest difference between Pakistan and India was the disagreement between the elite future rulers of the two countries. The future Indian rulers were happy to include some representatives of the hoi polloi in government, subject to elections. The people who made Pakistan did not want them, wanted special status in India and when they failed to get that they opted out and went to a different nation. But that apart the people were all of one culture. There were some unsavoury and non PC views about Bengalis and South Indians - which was normal for those days. the British, after all, in moving to Delhi had surrounded themselves with those who they had felt were loyal to them after 1857. There is a record of nehru being relatively unconcerned about the refugee crisis in the East.

That said you are welcome to take my views as "allegations". My sense is that there was a great degree of "pakiness" in the ruling elite of India in which the Pakis and the ruling elite were united in language, and appreciation of the arts and suspicion, if not derision, for the Bengalis and South Indians. There are many accounts relating to the latter - but I will not dig into that now

A_Gupta wrote:There is simply the fact that India's capital is in Delhi, close to Punjab and far from Assam, rather than Pataliputra or Kolkata as in some previous ages, which makes Pakistan "closer". It is visible even on BRF, where despite the huge cultural affinities with peoples all around the Indian Ocean/Bay of Bengal rim, the "Look East" and now "Act East" mostly elicits a yawn. IMO, just giving Pakistan mindshare is to support it in some way -- the goal of a lot of what Pakistan does is simply to have mindshare - it is a measure of their honor and dignity.

There is in my view a degree of Pakiness in Delhi which one does not find in Mumbai, Kolkata, or Bangalore.

I agree that giving Pakistan mindshare is giving them support, but that is not the point. By demanding trade and visas a lot more than mindshare is being awarded to Pakistan. Those people who are doing that seem to be unmindful about the Islamist aspect of Pakistan and see cultural affinities as paramount. Mani Shankar Aiyer apparently said that Veer Savarkar aand jinnah were similar in being divisive. I see that statement as one that seeks unity between Indians and Pakistanis. Laudable as that sentiment may seem it ignores the fundamental issue that led to division - Islamism. Perhaps the problem lies in the fact that a class of Indian felt liberated from the degrading Hindu culture but more on that later

I have observed that Pakis say "We would be friends if it were not for our Khakis (armed forces). The most surprising thing is the Indian who echoes that sentiment saying that India is being held back from befriending Pakistan by its armed forces. That is a degree of negation of fact that amazes me. It still exists in pockets among a class of Indian who are linguistically and culturally comfortable with Pakistanis because it is invariably the Paki who says it and the Indian who secondarily nods and agrees. There seem to be some Indians who cannot categorically state that the Indian armed forces are apolitical and are not involved in holding back friendship with Pakistan. I must point out that I have heard this sentiment mostly from people who can be classified as part of a special Delhi central government culture, often people who have spent careers in government jobs in Delhi. I heard this from a retired bureaucrat and it suggested to me that the sentiment was a meme floating around in the Delhi circles in which he had spent his life. I wonder if sympathy for Pakistan is combined with a suspicion of the armed forces - and this is a sentiment that I think has existed only in Delhi, specifically among bureaucrats and Congress leaders. The fact that it exists tells me that there are some seriously delusional Indians. One keeps reading about the various subtle ways the Delhi bureaucracy belittles the armed forces

There is something out there and I am simply voicing what I have felt
Last edited by shiv on 23 Sep 2015 21:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Falijee » 23 Sep 2015 21:20

"Deep State" Protects Mushy Against Revenge By Lal Masjid Clerics
Sons of former Lal Masjid cleric arrested in Islamabad
SLAMABAD: Two suspected terrorists arrested from Islamabad's F-6 sector late on Tuesday have been identified as the sons of deceased Lal Masjid cleric Ghazi Abdul Rasheed.
The suspects identified as Haris and Haroon were arrested by a joint team of Police and Rangers who were patrolling the area at the time.
An army uniform and a handgun were seized from their vehicle. A First Information Report (FIR) was lodged against the 'terrorists' for the possession of a weapon at the Kohsar police station.

According to DawnNews, a Lal Masjid spokesman said the FIR is an attempt to bar the sons in their attempts to pursue a case against former president Musharraf who was charged for the murder of the Lal Masjid cleric.

The spokesman said that no uniform had been recovered from the car and that only a weapon was present in the vehicle. He added that the recovered weapon was licensed.

"Deep State" does not have enough guts to make a raid on Red Mosque- the citadel/HQ/symbolism/of Islamic supremacy in Pakisatan, unless they want a full-fledged civil war in Slum-bad :mrgreen:
Last edited by Falijee on 23 Sep 2015 21:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Karan M » 23 Sep 2015 21:25

JE Menon wrote:>>We just have to make huge walls, minimize people to people virus contact (of both physical and mental kinds) and maintain and exercise significant deterrence (arty, covert ops, proper COIN, humint to snuff out ISI cells) and grow our economy at a blistering pace. In a decade or two, TSP would have become such a mess that the four fathers will be begging for India's help and advice as versus telling us what to do. The biggest jerks we have to be careful of are the ISI pasand types in India who regard votebank politics as a natural fit and the left/MSM who are both heavily indoctrinated to be proPakistan.

I don't think it is possible to state the required Pakistan policy (and in fact what is actually happening to some extent) in a more succinct and clear way. Simply brilliant KM. I'll be using this if you don't mind.


Thanks JEM for the kind words! Use away!!

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Karan M » 23 Sep 2015 21:41

Regarding Lutyens elite and TSP - I would state it in simpler terms. There were many Indian leaders who were, for lack of a better term, civilizationally naive. They chose to either ignore the history of political and militant Islam in the subcontinent by either windowdressing it (Nehru and his acolytes, eg Discovery of India types) and the Gandhi types- extremely irrational pacifists who chose to first decide the answer (we are all one people, political islam = ok), and then proceed to mangle data to suitably fit it. Add a native population which was mostly deprived of education, decent standards of living and was hence justifiably overdependent on visionary leaders and uncritical of the quirks they had and we had the beginnings of a leadership crisis in dealing with political islam. Add the second rung of challenges, namely many of our leaders did not identify with local beliefs and concerns and were highly westernized, plus the communists who had already internalized self loathing and dislike of Hinduism and the die was set.
This then packed our entire Govt apparatus with folks who were brainwashed to think likewise. Being a colonial apparatus, repurposed for Govt administration in India, free thinking was not encouraged and toeing the party line was the be-all.

Add to this the assassination of Gandhi by Ghodse. A huge fall for the perception of the Hindu RW which would have set it back by decades and allowed Nehru and co to target the RSS effectively without opposition.

On top of all this came the Indira Gandhi phenomenon. She took the cult of personality Nehru had cultivated and made it into a complete system. Corruption in the system became organized. All means, legal and illegal to seize and retain power were A-ok. Her reign saw loyalty being rewarded and detractors punished. She also ended whatever RW influence remained in the Congress party (the old Guard).

The entire system was then created to support a corrupt oligarchy. The dynasty and their wheels of power (the babu-judi-pandu combine) plus the select captians of industry and regional powers who would all chip in to sustain that dynamic.

But all civilizations have a balance. The wheel of time returns that balance. As people become more educated and self aware, they have one single question. "Who are we" which then leads them to the query of what happened wherein they are not where others are, in terms of economic and national advancement.

This Hindu or even Indian resurgence is something that no dynasty or the left can manage. They can attempt to check it, attempt to suppress it (and they have done so for sixty odd years by being as fascist as possible and persecuting their opponents and liberally using slander and vilification and even using foreign powers to intervene in Indian affairs). But its a rising tide and as Modi's victory showed, even though its early days, the Indian public are becoming self aware. There are Indians who are re-examining what the fake paeans to secularism cost them whilst India languished.

Once that awareness reaches its zenith, a lot of the historical dross will fall off as the society takes a course correction, even as the Indian state watches passively. This will also mean the death of regional parties which fight on the basis of votebanks and caste and the end of the Italian dynast's dreams. Plus put India on the path to being an independent power. This would mean a complete change of the current status quo and hence its hardly surprising that so many seek to stymie India's economic growth (a poor people will not be able to dwell on weighty topics), convert them (influence generation and planting) and divide it.
Last edited by Karan M on 23 Sep 2015 21:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Rajagopal » 23 Sep 2015 21:44

Paul wrote:Image


Excellent find, Paul ji. This is the kind of Dhamaka that needs to go viral. It will reduce Pakistan's stature from present Zero ranking to -72 ranking. :mrgreen:

is there some way we can post it to Whatsapp or facebook?

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Anujan » 23 Sep 2015 22:10

That's nothing new. The chief minister (kaptaan party) said so in the assembly!! Way back in 2013
http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-1 ... dia-debate

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby KLNMurthy » 23 Sep 2015 22:34

Anujan wrote:That's nothing new. The chief minister (kaptaan party) said so in the assembly!! Way back in 2013
http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-1 ... dia-debate

Right, nothing new, but the point is to make use of it to put the enemy on the backfoot, and educate those who think the enemy is "just like us".

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Prem » 23 Sep 2015 22:40

India will not be allowed permanent membership of UNSC: diplomatic sources

Best Beggar Boast Battlegroup Bakrishiitz Bakistania

UNITED NATIONS: Pakistan has prepared a plan of action against any addition of permanent members to the United Nations Security Council (UNSC), high-level diplomatic sources said on Wednesday.According to sources, India will not be allowed permanent membership of the UNSC.Sources further said that India’s aggressive stance on the Kashmir issue will be discussed openly at the UN.“Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif will expose foreign involvement in initiating terrorism in Pakistan,” said the high-level diplomatic sources.Sources added that while PM Sharif will be meeting various heads of state at the UN including that of US and China, he is unlikely to meet the Indian Prime Minister.The FO further said, “The prime minister will address the General Debate of the General Assembly on 30 September. He will articulate the government's vision of a peaceful neighbourhood and economic development, and share with the world community, Pakistan's position and priorities on key international and regional issues

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Falijee » 23 Sep 2015 22:58

No Nawaz-Modi meeting expected at UNGA session: Foreign Secretary
SLAMABAD (Staff Report) – Federal Secretary for Foreign Ministry Aizaz Chaudhry on Wednesday said that there has been no expectation of a meeting between Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif and his India counterpart Narendra Modi during the session of United Nations General Assembly.

In a statement he ruled out any chances of meeting both country heads saying that there have been no invitation for a meeting neither a consideration or any expectation.

He added that Pakistan has decided to present its case against India in United Nations as the latter has been running away from the table of talks every time. We will raise every issue before UN general Assembly, he said.

Meanwhile media reports suggest that Both Nawaz Sharif and Narendra Modi would be staying in the same hotel in New York, and hence there are chances of a brief informal meeting between them. It could be as short as a handshake that they made during last year’s SAARC summit.

Prime Minister’s special adviser Sartaj Aziz also said that Pakistan has so far received no invitation from India for meeting of two prime ministers. “The invitation for any such meeting must come from India because they canceled the recent NSAs meeting scheduled on August 23,” he insisted.


Just wondering if Ganja Sharif will do the Dehati Aurat act, when he meets Ombaba

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Ashok Sarraff » 23 Sep 2015 22:59

KLNMurthy wrote:
Anujan wrote:That's nothing new. The chief minister (kaptaan party) said so in the assembly!! Way back in 2013
http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-1 ... dia-debate

Right, nothing new, but the point is to make use of it to put the enemy on the backfoot, and educate those who think the enemy is "just like us".


Its ironic because a majority of Pakistanis have descended from the sanitary-worker jati, as hinted by Tarek Fatah in one of his interviews. (No disrespect meant to any community, just wanted to highlight an irony)

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Falijee » 23 Sep 2015 23:05

WWF-Pakistan launches project to improve livelihoods of mountain communities

WWF launches project in mountain communities, Germans to help in hydro projects in KP province, Gulf Ummahs to built schools in FATA; it seems to me, that more and more of these "normal government functions" are being "outsourced" to "friendly countries" due to their precarious financial situation :mrgreen:

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Falijee » 23 Sep 2015 23:18

M.Q.M Feeling Pak-jabi Pressure

MQM expelled over 10,000 workers in ten years: Farooq Sattar

KARACHI (Staff Report) – Muttahid Qaumi Movement senior leader Farooq Sattar on Wednesday said that his party has expelled more than 10,000 workers on violations of party discipline in last ten years.

In a statement the MQM leader complained that law enforcement agencies are treating all of the MQM worker in same way. There have been no difference in criminal elements and non-criminal workers on the side of security forces, he said.

“Rangers raid our party offices and arrest all those present in there without any discrimination,” he added.

Sattar went on to say that MQM is a responsible political party which has its own discipline and different actions have also been taken against workers in the past.

He further said that MQM had expelled Saulat Mirza from party in 1998 on the allegations of his involvement in targeted killing. But security agencies delayed his execution in 2015 to record a video against MQM, the Rabata Committee member said.

The statement comes a day after Farooq Sattar’s statement in which he asked security establishment to ‘forgive’ the mistakes of MQM and take a new start. MQM did not send its workers to India for training as a matter of policy, he said.

Is anybody going to believe him, I think not ; it seems to me, that "East Pakistan" like situation will surely develp

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Prem » 23 Sep 2015 23:25

Falijee wrote:M.Q.M Feeling Pak-jabi Pressure
The statement comes a day after Farooq Sattar’s statement in which he asked security establishment to ‘forgive’ the mistakes of MQM and take a new start.[b] MQM did not send its workers to India for training as a matter of policy, he said.
Is anybody going to believe him, I think not ; it seems to me, that "East Pakistan" like situation will surely develop


He has baited PA with the statement. Dozens of MQM wala will now get shot and full fledged Funga will start and spread in Sindh. We should expect 2nd Hijra and Mujra issue to come up soon.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Prem » 23 Sep 2015 23:40

‘There is no unity among Paki
http://tribune.com.pk/story/961659/sour ... -pakistan/

Pakistan crystallised as a nation against India but there is no unity among its people,” said Dr Christophe Jaffrelot, French scholar and senior research fellow of Centre d’Etudes et de Recherches Internationales (The Center for International Studies and Research).“It’s nationalism without a nation”, he claimed. “To decentralise provinces is to strengthen them and not weaken them.”Jaffrelot was addressing the audience during the launch of his book, ‘The Pakistan Paradox: Instability and Resilience’, at Alliance Française on Monday.“The book is an attempt at identifying the variables that explain the political trajectory of Pakistan,” he said. Jafrrelot discusses main sources of tensions in Pakistan that continue to promote instability.According to Jafrrelot, the tension between the centralised and different ethno-lingual groups is of formidable significance. “Those in favour of ethno-linguist federation were present before Pakistan came into being,” he said. “It can also be related to Muslim League as their demand of a separate electorate was a form of separatism.”Lahore Resolution also called for autonomy for provinces, he argued. It was after partition that Jinnah mentioned the provinces as a unitary state, he claimed.
“This alienated the decentralisation process,” he said. “The first centrifugal process began in 1950s, resulting in another partition in 1971.”
The scholar then shed light on the power struggle between democrats and autocrats. Although a democratisation process has been witnessed in Pakistani history, democracy has yet to be implemented, he argued.“There is a balance of civilian and military power in the façade of democracy.”Another dilemma facing the country is the identity crisis faced by the populace, he said. There is no consensus regarding an Islamic identity that the citizens can adhere to, he claimed.“This was also absent before the Pakistan movement due to the division between the Aligarh and the Deobandi school of thought, that crystallised after 1857,” he argued. “Sir Syed Ahmed Khan’s role was that of a modern reformist while Deobandis were an ideological group, favouring a separatist agenda”..

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby ramana » 23 Sep 2015 23:56

Jhujar wrote: ‘There is no unity among Paki
http://tribune.com.pk/story/961659/sour ... -pakistan/

Pakistan crystallised as a nation against India but there is no unity among its people,” said Dr Christophe Jaffrelot, French scholar and senior research fellow of Centre d’Etudes et de Recherches Internationales (The Center for International Studies and Research).“It’s nationalism without a nation”, he claimed. “To decentralise provinces is to strengthen them and not weaken them.”Jaffrelot was addressing the audience during the launch of his book, ‘The Pakistan Paradox: Instability and Resilience’, at Alliance Française on Monday.“The book is an attempt at identifying the variables that explain the political trajectory of Pakistan,” he said. Jafrrelot discusses main sources of tensions in Pakistan that continue to promote instability.According to Jafrrelot, the tension between the centralised and different ethno-lingual groups is of formidable significance. “Those in favour of ethno-linguist federation were present before Pakistan came into being,” he said. “It can also be related to Muslim League as their demand of a separate electorate was a form of separatism.”Lahore Resolution also called for autonomy for provinces, he argued. It was after partition that Jinnah mentioned the provinces as a unitary state, he claimed.
“This alienated the decentralisation process,” he said. “The first centrifugal process began in 1950s, resulting in another partition in 1971.”
The scholar then shed light on the power struggle between democrats and autocrats. Although a democratisation process has been witnessed in Pakistani history, democracy has yet to be implemented, he argued.“There is a balance of civilian and military power in the façade of democracy.”Another dilemma facing the country is the identity crisis faced by the populace, he said. There is no consensus regarding an Islamic identity that the citizens can adhere to, he claimed.“This was also absent before the Pakistan movement due to the division between the Aligarh and the Deobandi school of thought, that crystallised after 1857,” he argued. “Sir Syed Ahmed Khan’s role was that of a modern reformist while Deobandis were an ideological group, favouring a separatist agenda”..



Pakistan is a pure armed kabila currently parked outside India.
All other explanations are bakwas.
The kabila is prevented from settling down by the Army-Mullah axis which will become redundant.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby KLNMurthy » 24 Sep 2015 00:06

Falijee wrote:...

Just wondering if Ganja Sharif will do the Dehati Aurat act, when he meets Ombaba

I have to say that this constant echoing of this "dehati aurat" meme bothers me.

I expect an uncouth paki halfwit like Nawaz Sharif to use this analogy which presumes that village women are cowardly, dependent, and generally unworthy of respect.

But why would we endorse such an idea, with so much glee, over and over? Without even questioning it? For many of us, our grandmothers or great-grandmothers were dehati aurats. Should we be taking Nawaz Sharif's lead in choosing how to respect women like that?

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Falijee » 24 Sep 2015 00:13

Trump Calls For Indian Intervention In Pakistan :rotfl:

Now he is going to be declared persona-non-grata in Pakisatan

Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump said on Tuesday the United States should use India’s help to deal with Pakistan if it becomes ‘unstable’ in the future.

“You have to get India involved. India’s the check to Pakistan,” Trump said, during his appearance on a radio talk show.

Trump’s statement came in response to Hewitt’s question regarding what he would do if Pakistan, “the most dangerous country in the world other than Iran,” became ‘unstable’.

Asked whether he would send in US troops to neutralise Pakistan’s nuclear capability should the country go rogue, Trump replied that he would not reveal his military plans to a potential rival.

Read: Trump considers getting ‘rid of’ Muslims when president

“People can’t know exactly what your intentions are,” Trump said. “You want to have…a little bit of guess work for the enemy. This has nothing to do with lack of knowledge, because I think I know as much about Pakistan as most other people…But I will tell you, I don’t want to broadcast my intentions.”

“I want to be unpredictable with this. I don’t want to be like Obama, where he’s always saying you know, we’re going to do this in two weeks and then we’re going to do that,” he added.

However, in Trump’s opinion North Korea was a more immediate threat than Pakistan because it was already “a rogue group with nukes”.

Read: I love the Muslims: Donald Trump

“I said (during the second Republican debate) we’re talking so much about Iran, and they don’t have nukes at this moment,” Trump said. “You have a madman over in North Korea who actually has nukes and he says he’s going to use them.”


Trump is in N.Y.C. Ganja Sharif is in the same town; set up a one-on-one meeting in one of the Trump Hotel and settle the issue :mrgreen:

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby member_23370 » 24 Sep 2015 00:22

Pakistan is a kabila parked in what is India and must be expelled from there. The process starts with Balkanizing pakistan.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby A_Gupta » 24 Sep 2015 01:32

I must simply love the backward projection of the current situation into the past. E.g., Mahatma Gandhi was trying to keep India united against the "India consists of two nations" that started even with Sir Syed Ahmed Khan. Once partition was a reality, Mahatma Gandhi did support sending the Indian Army into J&K to repel the Paki jihadis. To imagine that somehow a Savarkarite concurrence to the two nation theory would somehow have kept Pakistan from happening, or even put India in a better position, is, IMO, not just counterfactual history, but against-the-facts-history.

Then to trace from 1915-1948 (Gandhi's period in India) to, for instance, the seeming dorkiness in 2015 of a former National Security Adviser 2005-2010 requires a lot of glue in between, that as far as I can see, has simply not been provided.

Anyway, it is all good :), who am I to complain?

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Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05, 2015

Postby Peregrine » 24 Sep 2015 02:22

India, US ramp up strategic ties with eye on China and heat on Pakistan
WASHINGTON: China was invisible and unmentioned dragon in the room and Pakistan the named and shamed entity as India and the United States strengthened their defence, security, and economic cooperation after talks between high cabinet officials ahead of prime minister Narendra Modi's meeting with president Obama in New York next week.

Washington also nudged New Delhi to make commitments on climate change ahead of a December summit in Paris, pledging to help India in attaining energy security with clean energy, including ambitious targets in renewables.

''A climate change agreement is absolutely critical and reflects the responsibility of world leaders to show the way on problems that profoundly affect not just our countries but all of the citizens of this planet,'' secretary of state John Kerry said, in a transparent show of Washington's No. 1 priority ahead of the Obama-Modi meeting.

India, which sees this as a ''transactional issue'' that should be part of an overall strategic and security paradigm, agreed to ''maintain close consultation in the run-up to the Paris summit'', with external affairs minister Sushma Swaraj recognizing climate change as one of the most pressing challenges.

Beyond this one contentious issue, both sides were on the same page, particularly where security strategy was concerned. Both secretary Kerry and minister Swaraj insisted that China was not even mentioned during their talks, and their vigorous partnership was not aimed at Beijing. But the lengthy joint statement issued at the end of the dialogue was replete with engagements that is certain to pique China.

They include steps ranging from an enhanced trilateral ministerial dialogue between US, Japan, and India on the sidelines of the UN general assembly next month, to building on the first India-US consultations on Africa in April 2015 by having New Delhi train peacekeeping forces in six African countries, to reiterated US commitments to support India's interests in East Asia, and to its membership of the UN security council and various multilateral forums.

Still, secretary Kerry maintained that ''this meeting has nothing to do with China'' and ''there's no message to China here intended,'' before conceding that ''you could argue that because we are in common accord with respect to the South China Sea and rule of law, that that is a message to China.''

''Any fear or apprehension that this dialogue was aimed towards China ... that is mistaken,'' Swaraj protested to a questioner who raised the China angle, pointing out that the United States has the same dialogue mechanism with China too.

Both sides were less leery about naming and shaming Pakistan, conspicuously issuing a joint declaration on combating terrorism separate from the joint statement relating to the strategic and commercial dialogue.

Coming ahead of Pakistan's bluster about presenting ''evidence'' about India's involvement in unrest in the country at the UN and Nawaz Sharif's visit to Washington later this year, the declaration went over well-worn reiteration of anti-terrorism cooperation. One striking passage referred to the ''inclusion of Mumbai in the Strong Cities Network, a forum to build sub-national resiliency against violent extremism.''

''We have recognized the threat posed by Lashkar-e-Taiba and other groups operating from safe havens in our region, and the need for Pakistan to bring to justice the perpetrators of the 2008 Mumbai attacks,'' Swaraj said bluntly, with Kerry, author of programs that has funneled billions of dollars in aid to Pakistan, standing beside her. ''We have agreed to step up our cooperation in fighting the menace of terrorism.''

Cheers Image

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Falijee » 24 Sep 2015 04:20

Scotch Marriage On The Rocks?

Imran Khan denies reports of marriage collapse with Reham

Not posting this news in the BENIS thread, as this is going to affect his political (not conjugal) performance

Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf (PTI) chairman Imran Khan rejected on Wednesday a media report suggesting his marriage with Reham Khan was on the rocks.

“I am shocked at a TV channel making a slanderous statement about my marriage. I strongly urge the media to desist from such baseless statements,” the PTI chief said on microblogging website Twitter.

There were earlier press reports that Begum Sahiba's Teeter Account was suspended by the Kaptaan
On Tuesday, a local media report alleged the cricketer-turned-politician’s wife was staying at his Bani Gala residence even though she was “not welcome there any longer.” :roll:

Jemima had tweeted photos of Imran and her sons posing together on her Instagram account during the PTI chairman’s stay in London.
This is not the first time, Imran has been forced to clarify controversies regarding his marriage. Soon after the couple married, Reham’s ex-husband, NHS psychiatrist Dr Ijaz Rehman strongly denied allegations he had mistreated her during their marriage.

“I have never been involved in any kind of domestic violence in any shape or form,” said Dr Rehman, with whom she has three children. “I always looked after my children and wife very well.”

Further, Dr Rehman claimed she used him “like toilet paper to clean up her image” after she found herself harshly criticised by traditionalists in Pakistan who saw Imran’s bride as far too Westernised.

Read: Caught in the act: Reham alters university name on official website

Further, months after their marriage, it was found that Reham had not attended the Lincolnshire college as she had claimed on her personal website. She said she studied journalism at ‘North Lindsay College’ in Scunthorpe.

However, the college confirmed that it had never taught journalism and had no record of her being a student. She subsequently changed her website to state that she went to the Grimsby Institute.

Also the Kaptaan did not heed the advice of his immediate family members who wanted to discourage him from tying the knot with Reham :cry:

The Book however allows him a way out - take a second companion, but the Kaaptan, for the sake of his children will not do this :mrgreen:

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby SSridhar » 24 Sep 2015 05:55

Neela wrote:Every Paki thread's first post has a link to Margaret-Bourke White interview with Jinnah.
It is the first link.
An excerpt:
What plans did he have for the industrial development of the country? Did he hope to enlist technical or financial assistance from America?

"America needs Pakistan more than Pakistan needs America," was Jinnah's reply. "Pakistan is the pivot of the world, as we are placed" -- he revolved his long forefinger in bony circles -- "the frontier on which the future position of the world revolves." He leaned toward me, dropping his voice to a confidential note. "Russia," confided Mr. Jinnah, "is not so very far away."


Nothing has changed. Highway bandits - 2 words which summarize their economic importance.

The Muslim League's propaganda (for the external world) once the idea of Pakistan had become more or less clear was that Pakistan was already more resourceful and richer than Turkey; that professionals like doctors, engineers etc would radiate to the entire world from Pakistan. Of course, the choice of 'Turkey', for comparison, implied that Pakistan would be the new Caliphate replacing the Ottoman. Jinnah also undertook a tour of the Middle East & Egypt in 1946 and told the royalty there that but for the Muslim League and the idea of Pakistan, the entire West Asia would shortly have become Hinduized.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby SSridhar » 24 Sep 2015 06:16

Falijee, you have a PM.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby milano » 24 Sep 2015 07:21

Hi all. Shiv and JE Menon, thank you for the welcome. I'm going to attempt the URL thing now.

I'm attaching links to articles that have been published in a cluster over the last few days (sep 19-22ish). All are very similar, which is leading to my thinking that it is a coordinated effort and correlated to something. They're all the same well-worn talking points: "don't try Cold Start, it could lead to all manner of unintended consequences, you're overestimating your capabilities, your FDI/GDP will be badly impacted...". 2 Lt Cols (Retd), 1 Brigadier/SSG Officer (Retd), and 1 south asian Stimson Center fellow. One of the articles is what Falijee had previously posted.

In the past, one has seen these things come in clusters at times of serious crisis. So what I'm wondering is this: why now? Why are the cornered rat and its sympathizers squeaking?

Things seem to be relatively quiet on the LOC/Borders (at least based on the lack of headlines of cross-border shelling). My hypotheses: (1) Indian Govt and Army have been successful in following up bark with serious bite (not in the public domain?) with clear (not in the public domain?) signaling of serious punishment to come; and hence the need to bluster for the domestic audience and/or warn India not to go further, or (2) this is all posturing tied to the upcoming UNGA and visits of PM(s) to the USA, to remind all that South Asia is a powderkeg, so as to try to get international pressure increased on India and make it back off. If the motivation is the latter, I don't think it's working too well given the points emanating from the Kerry/Swaraj meeting that really put the spot light on Pakistan's role, as well as warnings that the Coalition Support Funds could be at risk.

http://nation.com.pk/columns/19-Sep-2015/cold-start-doctrine-an-analytical-study
http://tribune.com.pk/story/961565/indias-unrealistic-military-aspirations/
http://www.dawn.com/news/1208299/limited-war
http://www.hindustantimes.com/editorials/danger-zone-posturing-against-pakistan-can-be-costly-for-india/story-xAAT5rprffDqPSAtuQH8fL.html

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby sanjaykumar » 24 Sep 2015 07:27

Hehe

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby shiv » 24 Sep 2015 07:30

Let me continue in the vein of making general accusations about who actually supports close links with Pakistan - or at the very least gets upset when Pakistan's rabid Islamism is raised and insinuates that only Hindutva can raise such unsavoury, unsecular subjects and that Pakistan is totally peopled by innocent gentle inclusive people and that Islamist tendencies in Pakistan are a fringe just like Horrid Hindutva should be a fringe.

While I would love to paint on this group of Indians the term "Congresswallahs" I must point out that such people have certain characteristics that they share with Congress people

1. Their speech and diction in English comes out as "suave and sophisticated". Many may be Doon school types. I went to such a school myself and was taught English in that way and I feel an instant connection with Indians who speak English in that way. I can tell by the way certain words are pronounced that "This person is of my ilk". Non Congress parties by and large lack people who speak this way. They are hoi polloi sons of dehati aurats. Grameen types. Chokra boys. Not my class. Manish Tewari and Mani Shankar Aiyer are perfect examples.

2.They are suit wearers in general and would not be seen dead sporting a tilak on the forehead. But the women are stylish and generally "high society".

3. They are comfortable with Pakistanis. They claim to have no preconceived notions about Pakistan as they might accuse me of carrying. Being comfortable with Pakistanis means that you have to accept certain "slights and put downs" about caste and presence or absence of egalitarianism. Secularism teaches you to accept all this and by the time your stylish Indian English is polished up it is no sweat agreeing that Pakis are a good people and the armed forces on both sides are causing trouble

4. While the Congress party has been at the helm for 60 years and during in 3 of 4 conflicts with Pakistan, they have also been at the forefront of not actually instituting any scholarly/think tank type studies on Pakistan but have chosen to look at Pakistan via personal links and memories of hospitality and goodness of people they meet. This is actually gross incompetence bordering on being traitorous. While I would like to blow my own and BRF's trumpet for studying Pakistan I think India in general owes it to western reporters and scholars for gradually revealing Pakistan because of the way we Indians pick up information that comes out in print in the west. Of course we have had great Paki experts among bureaucrats and intel folks but no government has ever listened to them. No government has gone beyond the personal impressions that Pakis are a good people on whom we must shower love and award with friendship and trade no matter how hateful their behaviour is towards Indians.

5. Nations change. if you can continuously follow up sociological statistics like population, maternal and child mortality, attitudes towards family planning etc then you should be able to see the gradual change in Pakistan - the elimination of minorities, the lack of accountability after the 1971 genocide, the educational syllabus. One of the most common things "in the subcontinent" upon hearing criticism or an accusation is to instantly make a counter accusation. I thinks Indians should have more sense tan to be taken aback by counter accusations from Pakistan. We need to stay firm and look at them objectively. This simply does not occur among a set of sentimental Paki lovers.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby shiv » 24 Sep 2015 07:35

Milano wrote:I'm attaching links to articles that have been published in a cluster over the last few days (sep 19-22ish). All are very similar, which is leading to my thinking that it is a coordinated effort and correlated to something. They're all the same well-worn talking points: "don't try Cold Start, it could lead to all manner of unintended consequences, you're overestimating your capabilities, your FDI/GDP will be badly impacted...". 2 Lt Cols (Retd), 1 Brigadier/SSG Officer (Retd), and 1 south asian Stimson Center fellow. One of the articles is what Falijee had previously posted.

In the past, one has seen these things come in clusters at times of serious crisis. So what I'm wondering is this: why now? Why are the cornered rat and its sympathizers squeaking?

Brilliant.

Thank you. This is new for BRF - looking at real-time patterns in statements/reporting/bluster - something that we have missed so far. Thanks for putting in the effort.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby partha » 24 Sep 2015 07:41

Milanoji, thanks for the links. That Paki pattern has been observed before on this thread i.e. RAPEs making the same arguments or talking the same topics for a period of time on TV shows, op-eds, social media etc as if there is some deep state overlord giving instructions to them and coordinating their efforts. They even use the same phrases many times.

Ex:- at the height of LoC tensions last year, a common RAPE argument heard even in Indian TV shows was "why would Pakistan start LoC tension when it is busy in fighting terrorists in N Waziristan as part of Zarb-e-ZamZam operation?"

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Anujan » 24 Sep 2015 07:56

Yea Pakis are like that. I had posted some time back:

Anujan wrote:There is a method to the madness. People in Pakistan are remarkably consistent in their messaging. You can see that suddenly everyone: Think tanks, politicians, diplomats, media, RAPEs etc use the same language to describe something. Like "Solve Cashmere to Solve Afghanistan*". Suddenly everyone says the same thing, using the same words. Another example is "Trust deficit between Pakistan and USA", "Pakistan has lost $100 billion due to terrorism", "Pakistan itself victim of terrorism", "Moral, political, diplomatic support for legitimate aspiration for self determination", "US is driving Pakistan to China's camp", "South Asia is a nuclear flashpoint", "Both India and Pakistan should stop teaching hate in their schools" (as a response to madrassa proliferation in Pakistan), "India has suffered one Mumbai, Pakistan has suffered many Mumbai like incidents" and so on. Sometimes it catches on, sometimes it doesnt.

In places like US, there is something called a "talking points memo" that is sent out to all the supporters: essentially a succinct and same set of words to keep on repeating so people can remember it quickly and easily and you sway them based on repeating the words over and over again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talking_point

Its like Advertisement. "Boost is the Secret of My Energy". Simple, succinct, repeated enough number of times, it is easy to remember and believe**

So one side argues that the number of guns that people have is proportional to the number of gun deaths, the other said will counter it with "Guns dont kill people, people kill people". See, if you repeat the same thing, you dont have to argue the original point. An intellectually smart (but socially stupid) person will try to counter the original argument with "Have you controlled for factors like conflict, law enforcement and so on...". An effective person on the other hand will keep on repeating "Guns dont kill people, people kill people". If you think about it, that is pretty stupid argument to make actually. Going by that argument, bazookas should be legal. Bazookas dont kill people, people kill people. Nukes should not be banned by NPT, nukes dont kill people, people kill people. It doesnt matter that the statement is stupid. It only matters that it is easy to remember and repeat and suddenly everyone believes it because it is easy to remember and repeat.

If you ask the SDREs on why arms supply to Pakistan should be cut off, each SDRE will make a long logical argument, using different words, different ideas, different set of logical arguments. While they'll all be well argued, it is all very tiring to follow each of them, remember the argument and be convinced by them. If you ask a typical Pakistani abdul on why Pakistan is training and sending terrorists everywhere, he/she will reply with a straight face "Pakistan itself is a victim of terrorism". In some ways, we are victims of our own intelligence. We tend to pack arguments with nuance. A typical pakistani with IQ in the low 90's will parrot the same set of words. If you observe closely, "Pakistan itself victim of terrorism" has permeated even the discourse in the west. Even Motorma fair, sane people like Lisa Curtis, Panetta, Kerry and so on manage to squeeze it in. "Pakistan itself is a victim of terrorism...."

If you think about it, "Pakistan itself is a victim of terrorism" is merely a rephrasing of "Before the world blames suicide bombers, they should realize suicide bombers themselves victim of their suicide bombing". Essentially Pakistan is the country equivalent of a suicide bomber. So, the best way to counter this is repeat those talking points ourselves but modified in absurd ways, so every time someone hears those words, they only remember how absurd those words are. I never tire of doing that.

1. Before the world accuses Pakistan of spreading polio, they should realize Pakistan itself victim of polio
2. Before US accuses ISI of funding pro-Kashmir group to influence American politics, they should remember Pakistan itself victim of ISI influencing politics
3. Before Bangladesh accuses Pakistan army of committing crimes, they should realize Pakistan itself victim of Pakistan army crimes when Bangladesh was part of Pakistan
4. Before India complains about Pakistan army shelling its towns, they should realize Pakistan itself victim of Pakistan army shelling their towns

So take a talking point, gleefully deconstruct it, point out how absurd it is, keep repeating it and drive the point home.

*The Road to Kabul Runs Through Kashmir
Why the key to winning in Afghanistan is peace between Islamabad and New Delhi. http://foreignpolicy.com/2010/11/11/the ... h-kashmir/
Kashmir: The lynchpin of the Afghanistan problem http://www.dawn.com/news/697593/kashmir ... an-problem
Kashmir Is the Key to Peace in Afghanistan http://www.newsweek.com/kashmir-key-pea ... tan-216628

** There is a parody about it in a movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3boy_tLWeqA

milano
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby milano » 24 Sep 2015 08:02

partha wrote:Milanoji, thanks for the links. That Paki pattern has been observed before on this thread i.e. RAPEs making the same arguments or talking the same topics for a period of time on TV shows, op-eds, social media etc as if there is some deep state overlord giving instructions to them and coordinating their efforts. They even use the same phrases many times.

Ex:- at the height of LoC tensions last year, a common RAPE argument heard even in Indian TV shows was "why would Pakistan start LoC tension when it is busy in fighting terrorists in N Waziristan as part of Zarb-e-ZamZam operation?"


Thank you for the feedback and encouragement, Partha and Shiv. Indeed, the pattern repeats. I'm puzzled as to what's caused this latest outbreak of heartburn at a time when the messaging focus from the overlord should be on mission-accomplished-with-Zarb-e-A*s-Grab, warming ties with Russia and its all-you-can-eat smorgasbord of x-35s, and the CPEC investment that will make Pakistan the #3 global economy in 5 years; especially after things seem to have cooled down post-BSF/Rangers meeting in New Delhi.

I hope to soon start providing likely answers rather than questions :)

Kashi
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Posts: 3345
Joined: 06 May 2011 13:53

Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Sept 05,

Postby Kashi » 24 Sep 2015 08:05

partha wrote:Milanoji, thanks for the links. That Paki pattern has been observed before on this thread i.e. RAPEs making the same arguments or talking the same topics for a period of time on TV shows, op-eds, social media etc as if there is some deep state overlord giving instructions to them and coordinating their efforts. They even use the same phrases many times.

Ex:- at the height of LoC tensions last year, a common RAPE argument heard even in Indian TV shows was "why would Pakistan start LoC tension when it is busy in fighting terrorists in N Waziristan as part of Zarb-e-ZamZam operation?"


I would go a step further and say that it's one person or a cohesive unit that is churning out the master copy of these "articles" and then words and phrases are smeared and sandpapered away depending on the "authors" profile and the publication where they are to be posted.

I see it as a more suave and polished version of the "Christina Palmer writing for the Daily Mail" garbage that was appearing frequently a couple of years ago. I believe those were the dry runs and a crude template of the strategy to be followed by the deep state.

Jaahil Hamid too I believe formed one of those transitory/intermediate stages and were phased out as the law of diminishing returns became apparent. They probably did not expect him to be taken in by his own hype and morphing into a parody of himself.

The approach has been iteratively refined and now being presented as "Opinions and Blogs" by "noted socio-political commentators and security/strategic experts." Some of these "experts" hold proper and bonafide positions in various "think tanks", may have been planted by the deep state itself or co-opted through various means.

This is visible not just in print/online but in their news channels as well.

I recall reading an article on SUPARCO a while ago and it paraphrased one of the SUPARCO "scientists" from the 1980s saying that the mandate was to carry out a "cultural counterattack" on India, no doubt inspired by the deep state. SUPARCO got no where, but the thinking seemed to have permeated.

All these "strategic experts" simply form yet another constituent of the deep state "arsenal", against India (and others as well).

LeT, JeM, Good Taliban etc are the 'A' team, while these folks are the 'B' team. Much like the A and B teams of the People's Amn Committee of Karachi.


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