The Levant crisis.(Israel,SYRIA,Lebanon,etc)

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 25 Nov 2015 08:02

1. Kurds are supported by Israel big time so they are WITHIN the western plot.

2. On the sidelines of G20 summit in Turkey recently, all western partners have agreed to extend Russian sanctions for 6 more months until July 2016. Recall that EU was reluctantly agreeing to these sanctions and French politicians came out publicly calling to end of russian sanctions (that was just before Paris attack)

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 25 Nov 2015 08:08

Satya_anveshi wrote: 2. On the sidelines of G20 summit in Turkey recently, all western partners have agreed to extend Russian sanctions for 6 more months until July 2016. Recall that EU was reluctantly agreeing to these sanctions and French politicians came out publicly calling to end of russian sanctions (that was just before Paris attack)

The puppet masters operate behind the scenes. They are not elected and nobody knows who they are. For them Russia holds promise but as long as Putin is there it is an obstacle and a threat. Hence there will never be any cooperation with Russia so long as he is around. No elected Western leader will be able to overcome this "mandate". Hollande thought he could cooperate with Russia after the Paris attacks, but he visited DC and received his marching orders. The sooner Vlad realizes it, the better it is for him.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 25 Nov 2015 08:11

Biggest danger with CDG is that it will surrender to ISIS at first opportunity. I think this is a plot to give ISIS a get-away ship and an air force in one stroke. Like USS Enterprise for the Paki rapists in 1971. If ISIS unloads the haraam champagne, the loss in ballast may make it unstable.

Multatuli · Post by **Multatuli** » 25 Nov 2015 08:14

Reuters: US believes Russian jet was hit inside Syrian airspace

Reuters quotes a source from the US president’s administration. According to the source, the assessment was based "on detection of the heat signature of the jet"

WASHINGTON, November 24./TASS/. The US believes the Russian Su-24 bomber shot down by Turkey on Tuesday was hit inside Syrian airspace, Reuters has reported quoting its source from the US president’s administration.

"The United States believes that the Russian jet shot down by Turkey on Tuesday was hit inside Syrian airspace after a brief incursion into Turkish airspace," it quoted the official as saying on condition of anonymity.

According to the source, the assessment was based "on detection of the heat signature of the jet," it said.

Comment: A Dutch newspaper reported the same.

Would Turkey Act Without US Permission?

The shooting down of a Russian bomber by Turkish aircraft shocked the Kremlin. But in an interview with Sputnik, Daniel McAdams, executive director of the Ron Paul Institute for Peace and Prosperity, describes what effect the incident will have on the world stage.

Speaking to Sputnik, Daniel McAdams of the Ron Paul Institute gives his impressions of the downing of a Russian bomber over Syria.

More: http://sputniknews.com/military/2015112 ... urkey.html

habal · Post by **habal** » 25 Nov 2015 08:15

ldev wrote:Since the Turkish proposal of a no-fly zone along the Syrian-Turkish border got no traction from NATO, Turkey has upped the ante by this move. A 17 second window to shoot down a plane, only an ambush can do it. Hence Putin says that Russia has been stabbed in the back.

I am sure that if they want to, the Russians can take down plenty of F-16s by ground or naval based AAMs over the Aegean sea as they butt against the Greek Air Force. But that will be playing into Turkey's hand and make this into a NATO-Russia confrontation. Again I don't think that it is the prospect of military confrontation with NATO that is holding Russia back rather it is the hope of economic reconciliation and lifting up of sanctions which will be totally destroyed for decades in the event Russia decides on a large scale response to Turkey.

But Putin is good at asymettric warfare. I would look for a response or responses in other theaters as well if e.g. a Scud missile goes offcourse and slams into the Saudi oil loading terminal near Jubail or strikes a supertanker and sinks it in the Straits of Hormuz maybe over the top, but maybe something a little less dramatic.

First finish off the rebels.

gas them, nuke em, behead em, rape em, cut em up and sell their meat as pig food, vaporize, genocide .. do whatever it takes.
then focus towards turkey. And focus hard.
the world needs a strong, brash, arrogant putin and not a soft Putin well versed in real politik. Even the european and US majority want this, I am sure, their govts are just puppets for deep state and keep with the mumble-jumble of some rubbish or the other.
and terror attacks on the sly using various proxies.

If that doesn't work nuke London, Paris & New York.
these three are the biggest human rights abusers since 19th century.
If there is hesitation in doing that right at onset just go hammer & tongs at Ankara and Sultan's palace.
fight needs to be taken to the camp of the enemy, for a game changer Putin is taking it a bit too easy.
russia is following US led aggression and upper hand in terror, for russia to lead they must create the terror and US must react.
helis that went for evacuation needed CAP support. How could they go unarmed in hostile zone.

maybe some bioweapons could be stolen from Ankara lab and released into public.
or chemical attack in rebel/ISIS hands on way to Syria from Turkey accidentally set off coupled with hit on Erdoggy's doglets.
targeting Erdogan's person or his personal interests will be key to making him slip up.
one slip and nuke him or do whatever with him.

Al Mayadeen says one pilot has been saved by SAA special forces. Not confirmed yet.

http://lenta.ru/news/2015/11/25/evacuated/

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Nov 2015 08:26

habal · Post by **habal** » 25 Nov 2015 08:27

biggest airspace violator in the world.
guess who ?

Violations of Greek airspace by the Turkish airforce since 2008

Turkey has been a regular violator of the Greek border. Turkey has violated the airspace of Greece no fewer than 2244 times in 2014. That's over 6 times a day!

http://wakeupfromyourslumber.com/violat ... ince-2008/

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Nov 2015 08:28

even the richtofen or erich hartmann going in guns-only would be hard pressed to make the impact within a small window of 12-17 secs let alone timing a AAM shot to intercept precisely over that strip of land. so ROE was fixed (no need to call for cleareance) and once it looked like the su24 would continue over that piece of land the shot was fired. the actual impact may have been before or after the overfly period.

they had chosen the ambush spot because given shape of border and presence of targets, this was one of only three places where planes on attack runs might overfly turkish trips of land as you can see here Ad Dana and Kilis are other two.

https://www.google.co.in/maps/place/Syr ... f4882af620

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 25 Nov 2015 08:30

The chances of war between Russia and Turkey - which has the might of NATO behind it - are now 'most likely', claimed one of Moscow's most respected military analysts.Pavel Felgengauer said Ankara is seeking to protect a zone in northern Syria controlled by its allies, the Turkmens.After the downing of the Russian warplane on Tuesday, Moscow must either accept this zone 'or start a war with Turkey' which it could only win by going nuclear, he said.'It is most likely that it will be war,' said Felgenhauer, an analyst for liberal Novaya Gazeta.'In other words, more fights will follow when Russian planes attack Turkish aircraft in order to protect our bombers. It is possible that there will be fights between the Russian and Turkish navies at sea.'He warned: 'Probably the Turks will shut down the Bosphorus - and other NATO countries will join this conflict.'And in such a conflict Russia has very little chance unless it uses its nuclear weapons.'The Bosphorus is the only channel by which Russia's Black Sea fleet can reach the Mediterranean.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z3sTLCFXfd

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 25 Nov 2015 08:32

ldev wrote:
Satya_anveshi wrote: 2. On the sidelines of G20 summit in Turkey recently, all western partners have agreed to extend Russian sanctions for 6 more months until July 2016. Recall that EU was reluctantly agreeing to these sanctions and French politicians came out publicly calling to end of russian sanctions (that was just before Paris attack)
The puppet masters operate behind the scenes. They are not elected and nobody knows who they are. For them Russia holds promise but as long as Putin is there it is an obstacle and a threat. Hence there will never be any cooperation with Russia so long as he is around. No elected Western leader will be able to overcome this "mandate". Hollande thought he could cooperate with Russia after the Paris attacks, but he visited DC and received his marching orders. The sooner Vlad realizes it, the better it is for him.

Welcome ldev ji as a valued member in Coalition of Kanspiracy Tearists

for the benefit of audience, let's spell out that puppet master is state within the state of US/UK.

For the bolded part, my guess was russia will teach ukraine a lesson that it shakes EU more that Paris event did.

I believe Putin knows puppet master very well but he still needs to play with the elected politicians and deal with countries. Elected people will need to respond to public pressure (unlike in US which is acting against its own values of supporting terrorists, something that people in US will never support.) Russia severing ties with countries is exactly what the US wants.

member_29186 · Post by **member_29186** » 25 Nov 2015 08:34

Not sure if this is posted earlier. It seems Russian jets are using cheap Garmin GPS systems. Got this from Abhijit Iyer-Mitra from twitter. Why would Russia use GPS when they have GLONASS?
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/these- ... 1703048443

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 25 Nov 2015 08:36

Satya_anveshi wrote:Shiv ji,

Since Sept 30 (when russian attacks began), there has been good unraveling of IS plot and accordingly coverage of that on this thread. Some of it may still be in the realm of theory but all observed phenomenon will fit into this. Brief summary goes like this:

IS never attacked the West and GCC (this includes US, UK,Israel, EU, KSA, Turkey, Kuwait, Qatar, UAE, Jordon). These are the veritable sponsors of the IS/ISIS/ISIL.

IS controls territory that spans across multiple countries and gets support from western nations (military, technological support and some of their conjoined twins get diplomatic support). These territories happen to be major production hubs in the energy commodity supply chain. Gen. Wesley Clark's comment of (7 countries in 5 years fit into this).

Syria has bigger oil discoveries in its Golan Heights mountains than Iraq

Redrawing borders is essential to getting control over these energy supplies; This redrawing will not happen until countries go to civil war and go totally kaput.

Israel has plans to expand its territorial boundaries and annex energy rich golan heights region of Syria.

After you get control, you need to be able to sell it to consumers. India, China, EU, and Japan are the markets. Americas (both north and sourth) are self sufficient and can be net exporters.

China entered into half a trillion$ deal with Russians;

India has options to choose from KSA, Iraq and now Iran, which is entering with its own supplies. Recently Iraq took over as #1 supplier of Crude to India. KSA's share is going down.

Japan is primarily served by West Asia despite bordering Russia.

That leaves EU. Currently Russia controls that market (both gas and crude). In order to dislodge Russia, the supply must go thru Syria/Turkey.

Ukraine turmoil already threatening to cut off gas supplies to Europe.

Once Russia is cutoff, the country's major revenue source is gone.

Therefore, Russia is fighting for its economic survival and therefore an existential battle.

There are also underpinning of US Dollar hegemony that is supported by the sunni oil trade. The new shia and russia controlled oil trade is not supporting of US dollar. They have plans to diversify into USD and Euro as well as providing other alternatives.

In sum total USA wants a diffused third world war to destroy EU, Russia, Middle East and remain the sole super power standing.

habal · Post by **habal** » 25 Nov 2015 08:37

Sputnik_Int: #Russia suspends all military contacts with #Turkey, 'From here on, we'll only contact them with missiles' [link to t.co (secure)]

lol

Conflict News Conflicts 2m2 minutes ago
#Russia's Defense Ministry warns #Turkey: “anyone threatening our air forces will be destroyed.” #Syria - WilliamsJon

Obama perfidy evident immidiately

Obama said in news conference between Hollande & himself that if Russia limited its actions to ISIS ,and not attacked moderate rebels,such incidents would not happen. He also added that Turkey has the right to defend itself.

An image with both versions of radar, Turkish and Russian.

http://im1.kommersant.ru/ISSUES.PHOTO/D ... -01-01.jpg

Great Map, if the flight path is true, and the Russian jet is flying at ~580knts/hr, it was over Turkish land for 16 seconds maximum!
So this whole "we repeated warnings 10 times to the Russian fighter jet" is a big fat lie.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 25 Nov 2015 08:40

Gyan ji,

that's isn't summary of my post. That is way above my head.

World dependent on US$ via energy supplies managed by sunni partners in $ denom; EU dependent on US umbrella; Russia and China removed as challengers.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Nov 2015 08:41

Satya_anveshi wrote: IS never attacked the West and GCC (this includes US, UK,Israel, EU, KSA, Turkey, Kuwait, Qatar, UAE, Jordon). These are the veritable sponsors of the IS/ISIS/ISIL.

They are the sponsors alright but I am not sure of their "not attacking the west"

Let me qualify that statement. The west have this tendency to club assorted jihadi groups and club them together and give them a name. IS (like Al Qaeda or Taliban) is one such name. Once a group is named in this way the west looks for allies in that group and the others are "against us because they are not with us". The West arms and funds the "with us" factions. They don't have a clue who they are funding and what they are doing, but they will take inputs from those whom they support and attack only those targets that their "good jihadis" tell them to attack.

This was done in Afghanistan in the 1970s and 80s and they made a mess and left when the USSR. Withdrew. The same forces that helped them attacked the US on 9-11. They spent 11-12 years trying to sort that out and in the process have left Pakistan, Iraq and Afghanistan as weak nations. They got no extra oil from this and in no way reduced the risk of Islamist violence or the spread of nuclear weapons.

The oil boom has come from fracking in the US and letting Iran off the hook means that Pakistani and Iranian nuclear weapons programs are now free. Iranian oil too is flowing. Jihadi terror has pretty much moved from the AF-Pak region to the Levant.

Any western idea that it is Russia needs to be checked and rendered insolvent is simply delusional. The west will needs boots on the ground to do anything and their armies are way too expensive. That means hired forces. Most likely Pakistan will be employed to protect gulf states if necessary and they will try and direct IS to fight Russia. In theory Russia could pull out and lose little - Russian involvement is small. But the chaos wil remain and if IS are not getting hit by Russians they will simply attack whoever is available.

I wonder if the downing of a Russian airliner was a western intel plot to get the Russians involved and direct the IS at Russia?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Nov 2015 08:42

dont most of them have gps, glonass, galileo capability? even cellphone has such these days.

much cheap consumer version
http://www.amazon.in/Garmin-Etrex-20-Or ... B007P1PGTW
>> GPS and GLONASS satellites for faster positioning

take a more professional model like on that fencer
https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/on-the- ... 40024.html
>> High-sensitivity GPS and GLONASS receiver with quad helix antenna

but I do hope they are relying only on GLONASS. it is know that US drifted the consumer GPS signal over georgia by 500m when the war started to deny precision navattack info to Rus. in that time frame the glonass was just getting started filling up.

vina · Post by **vina** » 25 Nov 2015 08:44

even the richtofen or erich hartmann going in guns-only would be hard pressed to make the impact within a small window of 12-17 secs let alone timing a AAM shot to intercept precisely over that strip of land. so ROE was fixed (no need to call for cleareance) and once it looked like the su24 would continue over that piece of land the shot was fired. the actual impact may have been before or after the overfly period.

The facts are clear. The plane was inside that tongue of land for 17 secs or so.

The missile impacted the Russian plane AFTER it had cleared that tongue (Putin says 0.6kms INSIDE syria) and the plane fell some 4 Km inside.

The F16 probably fired the moment the SU-24 entered the tongue on the other side, the missile must have tracked it and the impact hapend as it exited the tongue.

So Turkey is now in technically a very difficult position. They actually shot down a Russian plane in Syrian territory and unless they invoke hot pursuit ( a difficult proposition , since the Russian plane was NOT attacking Turkey at all) there is nothing that will prevent the Russians from enforcing a no fly zone even "informally" along the Syrian border. They just need to place some 20 SAM batteries along the SYria - Turkey border from the coast along the border going inland. That will effectively shut down the Turkish Airforce to some 40 kms away from the border. The Russians dont even have to patrol. Just SAM batteries with same rules of engagement as the Turks to shoot across the border.

With this kind of thing, the Russians wont even need escorts for their strikers from now. The Moskva cruiser along the coast will do the job admirably for some 100 kms inland. A few batteries inland will be all it takes .

Like Lalmullah said earlier. Erdogan === Mush. This is exactly Kargil redux. The Turks will have been sent back with a bee in their ears and a warning that they can invoke Nato treaties only if Turkey is attacked by Russian planes and shooting the Russian planes on any other basis means they are on their own.

Expect quick shalwar browning and downhill skiing from the Turks in short order and Russia amps up the muscle on this and goes about doing exactly what Turkey wanted to prevent, ie destrcuction of the Turcoman opposition and thwarting what they wanted , a safe haven for the anti Assad opposition.

If the US and NATO hadnt given that message to Turkye, the lap dog US media would be publishing inconvenient facts that the russian plane was hit INSIDE Syrian territory.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Nov 2015 08:44

turkey would be deploying glonass jammers on the hills in the border to cause navigational errors and lure more a/c into shootdowns

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-d ... er-Georgia

habal · Post by **habal** » 25 Nov 2015 08:46

military grade glonass I would presume, the airplane was in turkish airspace for 17 seconds, how can you blurt 10 warnings in 17 seconds.
stupid turks.
with low level of scientific intellect, turks like pakis are going to blurt out some stupidity or other.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Nov 2015 08:48

>> They just need to place some 20 SAM batteries along the SYria - Turkey border from the coast along the border going inland. That will effectively shut down the Turkish Airforce to some 40 kms away from the border

only some 20km of the turkey border right next to the coast is in govt hands. the rest of it is still deeply in rebel hands , the govt is slowly pushing up from the south and west. due to mountains, the effectiveness of moskva radar will be degraded for lower heights.

Rus will need to put some radars on hilltops along with Pantsyr batteries and a few S300V types once more of the areas like jisr al shugur and Idlib are cleared out.....existing army or air bases would have the required fields of fire

for now their best bet is deploy a few radars and start aggressively painting any turk aircraft near the border and keep more Su30s around. maybe even put in a S400 battery in Latakia and Kuweires

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Nov 2015 08:49

naruto wrote:Not sure if this is posted earlier. It seems Russian jets are using cheap Garmin GPS systems. Got this from Abhijit Iyer-Mitra from twitter. Why would Russia use GPS when they have GLONASS?
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/these- ... 1703048443

That is such a simple and funny trick that it makes me laugh. If they use Glonass, the west could interfere with the signals. Using GPS the west will have to shut off their own systems to stop it from being used.

The IAF has shown that civilian grade GPS accuracy is sufficient when used under certain conditions with certain corrections applied. GPS + Inertial guidance with last point visual sighting/laser illumination may be good enough.

I am sure the Russians are doing exactly that. The type of accuracy the west demands is for standoff accuracy at very great ranges.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Nov 2015 08:51

>> Using GPS the west will have to shut off their own systems to stop it from being used.

I think US can degrade civilian signals(like this receiver) while the encrypted mil grade chanel can be left unaffected. exactly what they allegedly did in georgia.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Nov 2015 08:59

Russians do use GLONASS and they use milgrade type thats difficult to jam , Garmin etc are sometime used by transport pilots or as personal kit stuff

member_29186 · Post by **member_29186** » 25 Nov 2015 09:07

shiv wrote: That is such a simple and funny trick that it makes me laugh. If they use Glonass, the west could interfere with the signals. Using GPS the west will have to shut off their own systems to stop it from being used.

Russians would anyway use GLONASS mil grade signal, I guess its difficult to interfere. US has both mil grade and civilian GPS signal and the russians can't access the US mil grade GPS. I don't see how shutting of civilian GPS would effect westren capabilities.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 25 Nov 2015 09:07

Reports: Russian Jet Shot In Syrian Airspace

A Russian jet shot down on Tuesday was hit inside Syrian airspace after briefly entering Turkish airspace, according to reports.

A US official told the Reuters news agency, speaking on condition of anonymity, that the assessment was based on detection of the heat signature of the jet.

member_29186 · Post by **member_29186** » 25 Nov 2015 09:09

Austin wrote:Russians do use GLONASS and they use milgrade type thats difficult to jam , Garmin etc are sometime used by transport pilots or as personal kit stuff

My point is why should they use GPS at all. Couldn't they simply use GLONASS civilian signal?

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 25 Nov 2015 09:12

shiv wrote:I wonder if the downing of a Russian airliner was a western intel plot to get the Russians involved and direct the IS at Russia?

Russia, voluntarily, is directed at IS since Sept 30 so why will the west need this new incident?

Very correctly, Russia isn't making any distinction between the so called rebels and ISIS. Their goal is to restore the sovereignty of Syria.

Entire terrorist network is rotating chair. You give arms to rebels and they will go to IS. There is nobody to certify and validate who is who.

Naming difference is only to enable the post civil war management and to show there are good guys and bad guys to enable supplies into it. Fooling the public.

Also, the problem with IS you are highlighting although are valid are minor concern in the scheme of carving out newer state using the method they choose and for the purpose they have.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Nov 2015 09:15

Not sure if true but the 2nd pilot is alive and rescued by Syrian SF

http://lenta.ru/news/2015/11/25/evacuated/

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 25 Nov 2015 09:15

DoD: Unclear whether Russian jet violated Turkish airspace

The Pentagon tread cautiously Tuesday and said that it was unclear whether the Russian aircraft shot down by Turkey had, in fact, violated Turkish airspace, as the government of that nation insists.

For now, a Defense Department spokesman said that U.S. air operations over Syria will continue under the terms of the agreement that the Russians and the American-led coalition forged in October for safely sharing Syrian airspace.

"We're not going to slow down our pace and our mission continues," Pentagon spokesman Peter Cook said Tuesday.

"We do expect the Russians to abide by the [memorandum of] understanding and to do their part to make sure that the skies over Syria remain safe for our crews," Cook said. "We have the memorandum of understanding in place with the Russians that has, up to this point, proven successful in keeping our aircraft safe, our crews safe, so we don't anticipate a problem."

As to the "relative locations of aircraft and things like that, we need a little time to work all of that out. So, you've just got to give us a little time to analyze these things," said Army Col. Steve Warren, a DoD spokesman in Baghdad, in a Tuesday briefing with reporters.

"These things aren't as clean as they are in the movies where you're going to see where everything is," Warren said. "It's just data that has to be collected and sorted through so we know exact locations of things."

The memorandum of understanding signed Oct. 22 by the U.S. and Russia outlines procedures and rules for sharing the skies over Syria, including shared radio frequencies and safety protocols to avoid any mishaps or misunderstandings.

U.S. military officials signed the MOU on behalf of their anti-Islamic State coalition, which includes Turkey, Cook said.

The MOU applies only to Syrian airspace, Cook said, so if the Russian jet violated Turkish airspace, the MOU would not apply there.

When asked whether the Turks may have violated the agreement if the Russian aircraft was shot down inside Syrian airspace, Cook declined to comment, saying that was "hypothetical."

"We're still waiting for the details to come out exactly in this instance, but ... as the secretary has maintained, the president reiterated today, Turkey has a right to defend its airspace," Cook said.

Hence Putin's remark about being stabbed in the back. According the MOU signed between the US and Russia, the US also signed on behalf of Turkey. So the MOU is applicable only to Syrian airspace. If as US military officials seem to be hedging their bets now, the plane was shot down over Syria, then Vlad will be truly mad.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Nov 2015 09:16

naruto wrote:
Austin wrote:Russians do use GLONASS and they use milgrade type thats difficult to jam , Garmin etc are sometime used by transport pilots or as personal kit stuff
My point is why should they use GPS at all. Couldn't they simply use GLONASS civilian signal?

They may not be using GPS the Garmin picture could just be a random one from past era. The cockpit pictures of recent bombing so far shows no hand held device

habal · Post by **habal** » 25 Nov 2015 09:16

Turkey's violations of greek territorial waters
09-12

Turkey's airspace violations over Greece
08-14

habal · Post by **habal** » 25 Nov 2015 09:23

Ibrahim Joudeh ‏@Ibra_Joudeh 3h3 hours ago
#SAA Airborne forces found the 2nd pilot and escorted him for 2 hours before being transported to Khmeimim Air Base

https://twitter.com/Ibra_Joudeh

present state of Jabal Turkmen

epic fail, there are 3 trees standing ..

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 25 Nov 2015 09:36

How much fkd up Obama must be in his mind to comment that Turkey has right to defend its airspace and shoot down russian plane killing two pilots even if one agrees with the fact that russian aircraft may have violated the boundary for 17 seconds?

It is reflective of the pressure he is facing on the missteps on supporting terrorists. The desperation is evident.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Nov 2015 09:37

^^ Something good came out of this , Good they managed to find the second one in jungle infested with Jihadi

Multatuli · Post by **Multatuli** » 25 Nov 2015 09:46

Putin will respond: Russians feel betrayed as Turkey stabs them in the back

Vladimir Putin, who has a reputation for speaking in measured tones and not being prone to rash outbursts, has never seemed as furious as he was following Turkey’s shooting down of a Russian military jet over Syria. Make no mistake, Russians feel betrayed by Turkey.

Journalists on the Russia beat spend an inordinate amount of time watching, analyzing and listening to Vladimir Putin. He has been the central figure in Russian politics for 15 years now, 11 of them as President. “Playing chess while others play checkers,” as many observers frequently note.

I have never seen Putin as furious as he was during Tuesday’s Sochi briefing. At least not since his brief 1999 stint as Prime Minister, when he promised to “waste terrorists in the outhouse” after a wave of Islamist attacks inside Russia.

More: https://www.rt.com/op-edge/323366-turke ... -betrayed/

habal · Post by **habal** » 25 Nov 2015 09:50

Satya_anveshi wrote:How much fkd up Obama must be in his mind to comment that Turkey has right to defend its airspace and shoot down russian plane killing two pilots even if one agrees with the fact that russian aircraft may have violated the boundary for 17 seconds?

It is reflective of the pressure he is facing on the missteps on supporting terrorists. The desperation is evident.

yes, considering everybody and their mother has violated turkish airspace innumerable times past year.
talk about selective outrage ..

ammi abbu .. dekho yeh log mujhe maar rahein hain .. bwaaa bwaaa

Turkish Army: Airspace violated 112 times by Greece, Italy and Israel in 12 months

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey ... sCatID=338

so why suddenly selective outrage at russian plane

habal · Post by **habal** » 25 Nov 2015 09:54

the 2 pilots

Ivan Sidorenko ‏@IvanSidorenko1 3m3 minutes ago
#Syria #Latakia Violent #RuAF #SyAAF air raids this morning targeted towns near #Salma #جبل_النوبه, #المارونيات, #سلمى , #قرية_الكوم

Elijah J. Magnier ‏@EjmAlrai 5m5 minutes ago
Important: #Russia/n Special Forces with #SAA participated to Pilot rescue operation "40km behind enemy line"close2 #Turkish border. #Syria.

Elijah J. Magnier ‏@EjmAlrai 2m2 minutes ago
SAA & allies 1st at Raqqa doors. But Kurds r also SAA allies. Now the situation is much more complicated for all anti-gov forces @AlixOscar

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Nov 2015 10:02

as I have pointed out, all the islands hugging the turk coast are greek by some past euro machination. so airspace violations by greece of this technical few seconds nature will be legion ... an a.c at a speed has a turning radius.
nothing happens much with greece or italy........

even if the su24 had applied hard left rudder and banked left , he would still overfly that turk enclave.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Nov 2015 10:10

A nugget of gold was found on a channel which throws a whole new light on the downing of the Russian jet. Western analysts both US and British said that the time that the jet was over (if at all) Turkish airspace ,17 secs, was so short that there was no way that the aircraft could be scrambled and so many warnings given to it. They also cast doubts whether for such a short time over airspace shooting the aircraft down was the correct thing to do.A US general said that "usually an AWACS would be above communicating to the aircraft (Turkish)." This means that the Russian jets were being tracked by a US/NATO AWACS,info transmitted to the Turkish fighters so that they could be in a perfect position to shoot the jet down. This means ,if true,that this was a deliberate pre-meditated action by the US and the Turks to put Putin in an embarrassing position and shift the spotlight from ISIS' massacre in Paris ,condemned by the entire world leading to a UN resolution being passed to destroy it,into damaging Russia's reputation tarring it as a warmonger.

Turkey's links to ISIS is probably one of the worst kept scerets in the world.Firstly,it is the "portal" for ISIS transshipment to the battlefield.Secondly it is the outlet for much of ISIS's brigandry of oil and artefacts plundered before archeo sites are blown up.The key artefeacts are first removed for western collectors,then the sites blown up to prevent anyone from detecting hat has been stolen. Thirdly,it is the benami fighting force of the West (US,Saudis,Qataris,Gulfies,etc) to overthrow Assad and the Hiz and to curtail Iran's influence in Iraq. The so-called anti-Assad "rebels" openly supported by the US/.West are actually the "dummy candidate" as in Indian elections. They can openly be sent weaponry,etc. supposedly to use against Assad,but much of it is transferred to ISIS covertly! That Putin has now openly insinuated that the Turks and their Sultan are supporting ISIS will turn the spotlight on the real motives of Turkey in the region and the venality of its top leadership and the Sultan's court.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/n ... ysis[quote]
Is Vladimir Putin right to label Turkey ‘accomplices of terrorists’?

The relationship hinted at by Russian leader after warplane was shot down is a complex one, and includes links between senior Isis figures and Turkish officials
Vladimir Putin’s reference to Turkey as ‘accomplices of terrorists’ in the wake of Tuesday’s events is likely to resonate even among some of Ankara’s backers. Photograph: Sasha Mordovets/Getty Images

Martin Chulov
Tuesday 24 November 2015

Since the earliest months of the Syrian war, Turkey has had more direct involvement and more at stake than any of the regional states lined up against Bashar al-Assad.

Turkish borders have been the primary thoroughfare for fighters of all kinds to enter Syria. Its military bases have been used to distribute weapons and to train rebel fighters. And its frontier towns and villages have taken in almost one million refugees.

Turkey’s international airports have also been busy. Many, if not most, of the estimated 15,000-20,000 foreign fighters to have joined Islamic State (Isis) have first flown into Istanbul or Adana, or arrived by ferry along its Mediterranean coast.

The influx has offered fertile ground to allies of Assad who, well before a Turkish jet shot down a Russian fighter on Tuesday, had enabled, or even supported Isis. Vladimir Putin’s reference to Turkey as “accomplices of terrorists” is likely to resonate even among some of Ankara’s backers.

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From midway through 2012, when jihadis started to travel to Syria, their presence was apparent at all points of the journey to the border: at Istanbul airport, in the southern cities of Hatay and Gaziantep – both of which were staging points – and in the border villages. Foreigners on their way to fight remained fixtures on these routes until late in 2014 when, after continued pressure from the EU states and the US, coordinated efforts were made to turn them back.

By then, Isis had become a dominant presence in parts of north and east Syria. It had splintered non-ideological factions of the Syrian opposition as well as Islamist groups, both of which had been backed by Turkey, and ensured that whatever form of governance that emerged from Syria’s ruins would have little to do with the revolution’s original goals.

The steady stream of foreigners who passed through Hatay and Gaziantep made little effort to remain discreet, gathering regularly in local hotels, coffee shops and bus stations. European diplomats alarmed by the gathering threat concluded that the Turkish leadership was sympathetic to conservative Islamists travelling to fight Assad, who had, until his brutal response to pro-democracy demonstrations in 2011, been a friend of the Turkish president, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan. “After that he became an enemy,” said one western official. “Erdoğan had tried to mentor Assad. But after the crackdown [on demonstrations] he felt insulted by him. And we are where we are today.”

As Syria unravelled, Turkey doubled down on its commitment to a range of militant groups, while at the same time appearing to recognise that the jihadis who had passed through their territory were hardly a benign threat. The change in the dialogue with western officials was marked: security officials no longer insisted on the extremists being called “those who abuse religion”. Labelling them “terrorists” in official correspondence was no longer the problem it had been.

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Despite that, links to some aspects of Isis continued to develop. Turkish businessmen struck lucrative deals with Isis oil smugglers, adding at least $10m (£6.6m) per week to the terror group’s coffers, and replacing the Syrian regime as its main client. Over the past two years several senior Isis members have told the Guardian that Turkey preferred to stay out of their way and rarely tackled them directly.

Concerns continued to grow in intelligence circles that the links eclipsed the mantra that “my enemy’s enemy is my friend” and could no longer be explained away as an alliance of convenience. Those fears grew in May this year after a US special forces raid in eastern Syria, which killed the Isis official responsible for the oil trade, Abu Sayyaf.

A trawl through Sayyaf’s compound uncovered hard drives that detailed connections between senior Isis figures and some Turkish officials. Missives were sent to Washington and London warning that the discovery had “urgent policy implications”.
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Keir Giles

Shortly after that, Turkey opened a new front against the Kurdish separatist group, the PKK, with which it had fought an internecine war for close to 40 years. In doing so, it allowed the US to begin using its Incirlik air base for operations against Isis, pledging that it too would join the fray. Ever since, Turkey’s jets have aimed their missiles almost exclusively at PKK targets inside its borders and in Syria, where the YPG, a military ally of the PKK, has been the only effective fighting force against Isis – while acting under the cover of US fighter jets.

Senior Turkish officials have openly stated that the Kurds – the main US ally in Syria – pose more of a threat than Isis to Turkey’s national interests. Yet, through it all, Turkey, a Nato member, continues to be regarded as an ally by Europe. The US and Britain have become far less enamoured, but are unwilling to do much about it. The worry in both capitals is that to do so would introduce yet another variable into an already highly volatile region, where alliances, strategies, and implications are constantly changing.

“Turkey thought they could control it all,” said one senior western official. “But it got out of their hands. It has come back to bite them in the heart of Ankara [a double suicide bombing in October that was claimed by Isis] and it will haunt them for a long time.”
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JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 25 Nov 2015 10:18

^^>>“Turkey thought they could control it all,” said one senior western official. “But it got out of their hands. It has come back to bite them in the heart of Ankara [a double suicide bombing in October that was claimed by Isis] and we will make sure that it will haunt them for a long time.”

Bolded part which I added is what he really means.... Remember, no matter what the theatrics, Turkey will always only be a NATO Ali, never a full NATO ally.