Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Nov 21, 2015

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 23 Nov 2015 08:10

Pratyush wrote:Shiv, the position espoused by CRS is constant with certain provisions of the Indian contact act.

Thank you PratyushJi. I just re-iterated all my positions above. People may be free to disagree and respond as they see fit, or simply ignore as just hot air.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Nov 2015 08:18

shiv wrote: But I find the connection he has made between cricket with Pakistan and the US government attitudes to business with enemy nations odious. Negotiations between private sports bodies should not be presented as a touchstone of efficiency of governance and comparisons with US businesses being held back from dealings with enemy nations fail to take into account the fact that the much admired US government continued to allow into the US, and play with teams from the USSR, east Germany, Cuba and Iran over the years.

CRamS wrote: Many other countries including USA do routinely bar private companies and govt entities to do any business with countries they deem as a national security risk. I see no reason why India can't do the same with BCCI, and in fact that has been India's position, i.e., no kirket with TSP till terror concerns are met.

Touché

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 23 Nov 2015 11:16

CRamS wrote:nachiketJi, I respectfully disagree. If a company doing business with a country X is not in country's national security interests, govt should step in. There is that Lakshman Rekha is it not? So govt of India can and should step in and ask BCCI to stop this kirket nonsense, assuming of course all this circus is BCCI's autonomous decision. And furthermore, govt should take people into confidence and explain its decision. And if it does that, it will garner more support besides its core base. I am sure there have been instances where Indian companies are barred from doing business if national security interests are at risk. In US, govt issues a list of countries, Iran, NK etc, with whom doing business is restricted.

But I completely and overwhelmingly agree with you that the buck stops with the fans, and I am not one of them even though I am a kirket fan in general. In fact, if there is kirket with TSP, I will tell my family that the India package that we subscribe to that includes WillowTV kirket will be cancelled, period. I can do that much.

A_GuptaJi, what is your point?

Yes, Modi must answer. He should take the people into confidence about his stand on lunch menu during cricket matches with Pakistan, whether he will be there to serve beef kababs with the tea.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Nov 2015 14:00

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Nov 2015 14:46

J-K: Army jawan killed in encounter with terrorists in Rajouri

An Army jawan was on Monday killed in an encounter with terrorists near the Line of Control (LoC) in Rajouri district of Jammu and Kashmir.

“During the early morning hours, an Army patrol was fired upon by terrorists/inimical elements close to the Line of Control in the forward areas of Naoshera Sector (in Rajouri district),” Defence spokesman said.

“Own troops retaliated appropriately. In the ensuing firefight one soldier was injured and later attained death while being evacuated to military hospital,” he said.

The deceased has been identified as Sepoy Sudimesh from Kerala.

The terrorists opened fire on the Army patrol party ahead of the border fencing, (which is situated some kilometres away from the LoC), Defence Sources said.

Search operations were still in progress till last reports came in, he said.

Rajdeep · Post by **Rajdeep** » 23 Nov 2015 15:33

ISIS dismisses Lashkar-e-Taiba as puppet of Pakistani army

In its online magazine 'Dabiq', the IS runs down LeT and some other anti-India groups active in Jammu & Kashmir for a stop-start war that is inconsistent as it is dependent on the instructions of the Pakistan army instead of being relentless and unsparing in attacking enemies.

"In India, they (al-Qaida) are the allies of the nationalist Kashmir factions whose advances and withdrawals are only by the order of the apostate Pakistani army. In North Africa, they are the allies of Libyan factions who partook in the religion of democracy in the name of Islam," says the IS post.

For the LeT, the reference is embarrassing as it points to its close links with the Pakistan army and pokes holes in the fiction that it is an "indigenous" force fighting for the Kashmiri cause. The story has now worn very thin given the manner in which LeT chief Hafiz Saeed is feted by the military and treated an a key asset against India.

Lashkar, in turn, has never attacked a Pakistani target and its camps in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir lie in close proximity to the army encampments which facilitate crossings of jihadis into Indian territory. Saeed has also been critical of the IS, saying "foreign elements" are attempting to strengthen 'Daesh' (IS) in Pakistan. He has called on the Nawaz Sharif government to take steps to control the spread of IS.

Ironically enough, Saeed expressed concern over efforts to spread the evil of the IS in Saudi Arabia and said the Muslim world needs to remain united to combat the challenge.

Falijee · Post by **Falijee** » 23 Nov 2015 18:21

Pakistan pulls out of South Asia Football Federation Championship To Be Held In Kerala

Falijee · Post by **Falijee** » 23 Nov 2015 19:06

Islamic State mocks at LeT, calls it puppet of Pakistan Army

New Delhi: In a first, the Islamic State militant organisation mocked the capabilities of al Qaeda by questioning their support to militancy in the Kashmir Valley which it said is being controlled by the 'apostate' Pakistani Army.(because of its alliance with USA, the enemy of Islam ?)

The IS' scathing attack came just days after, Pakistan-based militant group Lashkar-e-Toiba issued a statement on Saturday denouncing the Islamic State as “a product of anti-Islamic Western countries” and said it had no influence in Jammu and Kashmir.
The HT report further quotes LeT spokesperson Dr Abdullah Ghaznavi as saying: “Kashmiris don’t want aid and support from an external group. They are capable enough to fight against the Indian aggression themselves.”

So the IS is trying to muscle in on the home turf of LET, in its campaign for expansion; so, the LET spokesperson is also now speaking on behalf of the Kashmiris also

The IS’ black flag has also appeared during anti-India demonstrations in Kashmir in recent times.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 23 Nov 2015 19:07

KLNMurthy wrote: Yes, Modi must answer. He should take the people into confidence about his stand on lunch menu during cricket matches with Pakistan, whether he will be there to serve beef kababs with the tea.

I like the sarcasm, but when the official policy under him to date has been that no kirket till TSP addresses terror, and then there is a sudden reversal, one expects the reasons thereof. What am I missing? Whats on the lunch menu might not be of interest to the vast majority who want understand the rationale for the policy reversal. Recall, many were critical of the Ufa reversal as well, but later Indian govt itself explained that the talks were only about terror. It was a convincing explanation.

Falijee · Post by **Falijee** » 23 Nov 2015 19:24

Gen Sharif did not discuss 'Indian dossiers' in US: Pak army

SLAMABAD: Pakistan army chief Gen Raheel Sharif did not discuss with the US leadership the dossiers about alleged Indian interference in his country during his recent visit to Washington, a media report said on Monday.
"It is an issue that is tackled by the embassy at appropriate levels and was not raised in the meetings (with US leaders)," army spokesman Lt Gen Asim Saleem Bajwa said.

On the one hand, is this "Bajwa guy" speaking on behalf of Big Boss; on the other hand, there is the Paki Foreign Office , official spokesman in Isloo; no wonder, people are wondering if the left hand knows what the right hand is doing

Pakistan last month presented three dossiers to India, which according to previous official statements, contained proofs about alleged Indian involvement in Balochistan, Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) and Karachi.
Later, they were shared with the UN and US officials.
Dosiers were made on toilet paper by madrasa clerics where the pak us ambassador presented to UN, so US rejected it!
Bajwa, who was part of a delegation led by Gen Sharif who visited the US last week, said that Kashmir was discussed in the meetings because it is key dispute that needed to be resolved for bringing peace and stability to the region.

Bajwa said the army chief's meetings focused on Pak-US relations, military to military ties, regional security and on the situation in Afghanistan.

Asked whether Americans also raised the nuclear issue at these meetings, Bajwa said: "Pakistan's stance on the nuclear issue is very clear. It is focused on meeting a certain threat perception."

Should all of this not be the responsibility of Ganja and the "elected Paki Govt ", unless they have been deemed to be incompetent and corrupt, and the Amerikhans know where the real power lies in Pakiland

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 23 Nov 2015 20:32

shiv wrote:J-K: Army jawan killed in encounter with terrorists in Rajouri
“During the early morning hours, an Army patrol was fired upon by terrorists/inimical elements close to the Line of Control in the forward areas of Naoshera Sector (in Rajouri district),” Defence spokesman said.

“Own troops retaliated appropriately. In the ensuing firefight **one soldier was injured and later attained death** while being evacuated to military hospital,” he said.

Did the defense spokesman use this curious phraseology? Usually it is 'attained martyrdom', (became a shaheed) or in Hindi, 'veergati'. Not sure what the reporter/ie is trying to convey by this weird phrase 'attained death'.

Indian English Language media just leaves me disgusted. :-(

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 23 Nov 2015 20:56

CRamS wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote: Yes, Modi must answer. He should take the people into confidence about his stand on lunch menu during cricket matches with Pakistan, whether he will be there to serve beef kababs with the tea.
I like the sarcasm, but when the official policy under him to date has been that no kirket till TSP addresses terror, and then there is a sudden reversal, one expects the reasons thereof. What am I missing? Whats on the lunch menu might not be of interest to the vast majority who want understand the rationale for the policy reversal. Recall, many were critical of the Ufa reversal as well, but later Indian govt itself explained that the talks were only about terror. It was a convincing explanation.

Is there, in fact, such an official policy? There is a policy about talks but I am not aware of any government policy about cricket. There are statements by various BJP politicians giving their opinions but that is not the same as policy, which is set and published by the concerned ministry or ministries.

Can you provide a link to a statement by a relevant ministry--sports or external affairs, and I believe the ultimate decision will come from the EAM--that spells out the most current policy, if any? After reading what the policy says, we can then discuss this alleged reversal.

Even the most primitive form of government will have some form and process for external relationships. We on this forum, as highly educated and empowered adults, are supposed to be aware of this, and should be basing any serious argument on facts that are known about GOI's policies.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 23 Nov 2015 21:02

CRamS and shiv, if you cannot respond to each other's comments without calling each other names and making snide remarks about each other, I will have to apply the ban hammer on both of you. shiv has already been warned and CRamS, you are skating on a thin line right now. Stop behaving like the Pakistani parliamentarians.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 23 Nov 2015 21:16

KLN, I'll have to check, but I did post a report that explicitly mentions that any resumption of kirket with TSP must require Indian govt approval.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 23 Nov 2015 21:18

Raja Bose wrote:CRamS and shiv, if you cannot respond to each other's comments without calling each other names and making snide remarks about each other, I will have to apply the ban hammer on both of you. shiv has already been warned and CRamS, you are skating on a thin line right now. Stop behaving like the Pakistani parliamentarians.

No problem, I did not want to respond to the personal attacks waged against me, but it was relentless to anything I say and so at at least indirectly I had to address them. But you have my promise not to respond to any personal provocation henceforth.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Nov 2015 21:27

sudeepj wrote: Did the defense spokesman use this curious phraseology? Usually it is 'attained martyrdom', (became a shaheed) or in Hindi, 'veergati'. Not sure what the reporter/ie is trying to convey by this weird phrase 'attained death'.

Indian English Language media just leaves me disgusted. :-(

sudeep I think we should be more kind to Indians who don't speak/write English so well. They are generally less slavishly enamoured of the west and Pakistan than the great English speakers.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 23 Nov 2015 21:40

^^Hameen

Rajdeep · Post by **Rajdeep** » 23 Nov 2015 21:43

Sri Lanka to be battleground for India-Pakistan series, announcement likely on 27 November

The proceedings had been fast-tracked once BCCI president and current ICC chairman Shashank Manohar met PCB chairman Shaharyar Khan and senior official Najam Sethi here in presence of ECB supremo and chairman of 'Pakistan Task Force' Giles Clarke.

"Since PCB will need the permission of Nawaz Sharif before going official, Shaharyar Khan will need to go back to Islamabad and seek the Prime Minister's permission. Once he gets the green light from the PM, he will again come back to Dubai and intimate his decision to Clarke. Clarke is likely to officially announce the series on November 27," the source told PTI on Monday.

It has been learnt that Sri Lanka Cricket (SLC) has been approached by the Pakistan Cricket Board (PCB) and they seem to be keen to host the series

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 23 Nov 2015 21:48

CRamS wrote:KLN, I'll have to check, but I did post a report that explicitly mentions that any resumption of kirket with TSP must require Indian govt approval.

That is not the same as a GOI cricket-with-Pakistan policy. Govt approval in the generic sense is needed whenever anyone or anything crosses the borders. That is what the stamps in your passport are about.

You have repeatedly stated that there is a "sudden reversal " of "official policy ". If you now have to "check" in response to my request to show me the policy, does it mean that you have been alleging the sudden reversal of a policy, whose very existence you are not sure about?

Or is it perhaps that you are assuming / imagining that the GOI has implicitly and secretly given its approval to BCCI to conduct the cricket series with Pakistan? I would then ask, how is it you are privy to that secret?

Personally I believe the present government 's policies towards Pakistan (willingness to talk about "anything " provided terrorism is addressed first) is misguided and soft. I wouldn't be surprised if, as part of that broad policy (which hasn't changed at all, let alone suddenly as you claim) India ends up allowing the cricket tour with Pakistan. I heartily detest and deplore thise policies.

But that doesn't mean I should have the right to simply substitute my own imaginings and emotional whims for concrete facts about government process and form. If I did that, I would either be a childish and stubbornly ignorant person, or I would be a person with no respect for the sober edifice of civilized transactions that is the government of India, maybe a colonial person who believes GOI is run by savages in an unruly idiosyncratic way.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Nov 2015 21:53

Rajdeep wrote:Sri Lanka to be battleground for India-Pakistan series, announcement likely on 27 November

Fake Paki planted news. It ain't gonna happen.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 23 Nov 2015 21:58

shiv wrote:
sudeepj wrote: Did the defense spokesman use this curious phraseology? Usually it is 'attained martyrdom', (became a shaheed) or in Hindi, 'veergati'. Not sure what the reporter/ie is trying to convey by this weird phrase 'attained death'.

Indian English Language media just leaves me disgusted. :-(
sudeep I think we should be more kind to Indians who don't speak/write English so well. They are generally less slavishly enamoured of the west and Pakistan than the great English speakers.

Oh I don't care about accents typos etc. but 'attained death' is just very curious. A less fluent person's first instinct is to go for a boiler plate expression, which in this case is 'attained martyrdom'. If you read the byline, its a faithful from Kashmir I think. I doubt very much that the defense spokesman used this phrase. To me, it appears a deliberate mischief by the reporter.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 23 Nov 2015 22:04

How phenomenally estupido we must be to keep falling for planted "news" ..

If anything is announced, please get it from the source directly. They all have official channels.

On one hand we have dedicated threads which have exposed media manipulation and planted news etc. we post all sorts of maa bhen on the news anchors, reporters etc there. And then quote the same stupid media and R&D

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 23 Nov 2015 22:07

Dunno if this has been posted here earlier, but this guy puts it pretty eloquently:

What makes someone become an Islamic extremist? Is it poverty? Lack of education? A search for meaning? Haroon Ullah, a senior State Department advisor and a foreign policy professor at Georgetown University, shares what he discovered while living in Pakistan.

This actually showed up in FB as well, and PragerU's FB page is filled with whining comments from Pakistani readers who want to know why he picked Pakistan as an example!

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 23 Nov 2015 22:37

KLNMurthy wrote: That is not the same as a GOI cricket-with-Pakistan policy. Govt approval in the generic sense is needed whenever anyone or anything crosses the borders. That is what the stamps in your passport are about.

You have repeatedly stated that there is a "sudden reversal " of "official policy ". If you now have to "check" in response to my request to show me the policy, does it mean that you have been alleging the sudden reversal of a policy, whose very existence you are not sure about?

Seeking Indian govt approval on resumption of kirket is a big policy issue. And the reason for that I assume is because of the number of fans who could potential cross borders (raising a security risk), the money involved, and the sheer desperation of TSP. In contrast, when a Paki wants to act in a Bollywood movie, that does not require Indian govt approval, at least none that I have heard of.

Or is it perhaps that you are assuming / imagining that the GOI has implicitly and secretly given its approval to BCCI to conduct the cricket series with Pakistan? I would then ask, how is it you are privy to that secret?

Yes, since it is explicitly mentioned in the MoU that any resumption of kirket must get govt's approval, the fact that BCCI is so brazenly negotiating resumption of kirket (inviting them to India and such) means that govt of India has given the approval. Its a reasonable conclusion. Now, govt of India might still pull the plug in the unlikely event that BCCI is acting autonomously, and I would hope that is the case. My point simply being that its not as simple as BCCI doing whatever it wants, and then presenting it as fait accompli for Indian govt to sign.

On India govt policy. Yes, based on repeated Indian govt officials who have said no kirket till TSP addresses terror, it seems to be Indian govt policy. If you are going to harp on me producing an official govt document, sorry I don't have that, nor am I going to split hairs on whether there is a signed letter by ModiJi that shows that. But unlike many other India TSP pee contacts, as I mention above, Indian govt is a part and parcel of the resumption of kirket decision making. And yes, there is sudden reversal IMO because there has been no kirket to date with TSP, and I repeat, Indian govt officials have been saying kirket and terror cannot go together, and sudden resumption now means there is a policy reversal.

BTW, I saw a report I believe in ToILet that Sri Lanka is the venue that is being negotiated. Lets see how it developes, but with so many reports highlighting the talks going on between BCCI and PCB on kirket resumption, I am simply cannot accept anyone's claim that all this is a lie and a figment of TSP imagination.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 23 Nov 2015 23:47

If kirket is an issue, Pakis can play Afghanistan in Sharjah and both teams can come out looking good exciting cricket. On the other hand, if UK sends its team too then Pakis will show up correctly as mediocre so UK may just have to send umpires only.

After all, Afghans needs to have normal relations with Pakis. Of late, some Afghans are selling cattle to buy guns against Taliban supported by Pakis so how can Afghans educated kids like Nobel Prize winner Malala without income sources?

Falijee · Post by **Falijee** » 24 Nov 2015 00:00

ISI Stopped Khurshid Kasuri Interview With Arnab Goswami
Interesting to watch interference of~~Pak Military Attache~~ ISI Head on Paki Territory (Pak High Commission)
Note how the Paki Foreign Minister(!) is subservient to the intruder; then FM then describes Mumbai (LET) terrorists as Pak Nationals and (in 2007) promises "action";

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 24 Nov 2015 00:42

sudeepj wrote:
shiv wrote: sudeep I think we should be more kind to Indians who don't speak/write English so well. They are generally less slavishly enamoured of the west and Pakistan than the great English speakers.
Oh I don't care about accents typos etc. but 'attained death' is just very curious. A less fluent person's first instinct is to go for a boiler plate expression, which in this case is 'attained martyrdom'. If you read the byline, its a faithful from Kashmir I think. I doubt very much that the defense spokesman used this phrase. To me, it appears a deliberate mischief by the reporter.

I think its DDMitis. No defense spokesperson will use the phrase' attained death'. I bet the phrase used (like you said) was 'attained martyrdom' but to our DDMs, death, accident, martyrdom, suicide bombing, murder all sound the same. Sometimes I wonder if our English MSM would even survive 1 month in massa. For all the 'phreeeee' press in massa, even the most leftist, anti-gobermint press will not cross certain red lines and if they do, the spanking is harsh and immediate. In India, as far as English MSM goes, anything goes. One test I apply to determine if a country's media is truly independent or compromised is to check whether massa hails that country's media as phreeeee/vibrant ityadi. If it does, then that country's media is compromised for sure. Otherwise if massa whines about press being controlled, not phreeeeee then there is a non-trivial probability that the press is actually independent and free.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 24 Nov 2015 01:23

Season Open on Paki & Jal Murgh

Europe plans to speed up deportation of tens of thousands of Pakistanis

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — Europe plans to accelerate the deportation of tens of thousands of illegal Pakistani migrants in a bid to free up space and resources for refugees with more legitimate asylum requests, a senior diplomat said Monday.Dimitris Avramopoulos, the European commissioner for Migration, Home Affairs and Citizenship, delivered the message during a visit to Pakistan’s capital in response to the ongoing refugee crisis. Although Syrians and Afghans make up the bulk of the most recent arrivals, Pakistanis also have been seeking asylum in Europe. The inflow is adding to the strain on Europe as it struggles to cope with the 760,000 migrants who have arrived there this year.But with Pakistan’s government relatively stable and the danger of Islamist militancy diminishing here, fewer than 20 percent of Pakistanis are granted asylum in Europe if they arrive illegally, officials said.
“Pakistanis will not qualify as political refugees,” Avramopoulos said. “Pakistan is under a democratic process. . . . It is not a country where its citizens are persecuted, and great progress has been done by authorities in Pakistan in order to pave a democratic perspective for their country.”Even before this year’s refugee crisis, about 168,000 illegal Pakistani migrants had been ordered to leave countries in the 28-member European Union between 2008 and 2014, according to Eurostat. But a lack of enforcement, a shortage of flights and bureaucratic delays have meant that only 55,750 of them actually left Europe during that time period.Until Avramopoulos’s visit, it had appeared as though the European Union would face even more hurdles in efforts to repatriate Pakistani citizens.

Avramopoulos’s visit, which included a meeting with Khan, apparently smoothed over that tension.“Both sides agreed that Pakistani deportees would be sent back to Pakistan . . . under a comprehensive procedure acceptable to both sides,” said an Interior Ministry official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he is not an official government spokesman.The E.U. official stressed, however, that the agreement will not affect legal Pakistani migration to Europe.European countries currently admit about 50,000 Pakistanis annually for family reunification, guest worker programs, access to higher education and other residency requests. Applications for those positions must be made in Pakistan, Avramopoulos said.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 24 Nov 2015 02:44

Some rona-dhona on Puki talk show circuit today on what quantum the loss of revenue will be if the truncated series is held in Siri(as they pronounce it) Lanka.
According to various 'anal' yst pakistan is expecting Rs 300 Crores in TV rights/sponsorship money. The money is desperately needed to host the PSL in Dubai and run the PCB till next year. The desperate way they say yeh series hamari home series "toh paisa bhi hamaara hai" is really something.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 24 Nov 2015 02:46

Via Google Books:

1. Death in the Victorian Family, by Patricia Jalland (1996)
"At the great age to which he had attained death can hardly be considered an affliction to the survivors".

2. Inviting Death: Indian Attitude Towards the Ritual Death, by S. Settar (1989)
"....honouring those who attained death by the samadhi-vow was becoming a symbolic practice,.."

3. Sree Sai Charitra Darshan, Mohan Jagannath Yadav, translated from Marathi (2013)
"Acharya Shuka recounted the "Maha Bhagwat" in seven days to King Parikshit, who heard it and attained death happily".

4. Harvard Oriental Series, Volume 28, page 187; by Buddhaghosa (1921)
"This body, which but now causes those who looked thereon to forget the Sacred Word, has but now attained decay, has but now attained death".

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 24 Nov 2015 03:02

^^^₹ ₹ ₹ ₹ ₹ ₹ ₹ ₹

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 24 Nov 2015 03:12

CRamS wrote: ...
Seeking Indian govt approval on resumption of kirket is a big policy issue. And the reason for that I assume is because of the number of fans who could potential cross borders (raising a security risk), the money involved, and the sheer desperation of TSP.

So, in your opinion, this cricket decision is a "big policy issue." That's fine.

Is there, in fact, a GOI policy? Other than the one that is there in your mind?

In contrast, when a Paki wants to act in a Bollywood movie, that does not require Indian govt approval, at least none that I have heard of.

What is a visa if not GOI approval?

Yes, since it is explicitly mentioned in the MoU that any resumption of kirket must get govt's approval, the fact that BCCI is so brazenly negotiating resumption of kirket (inviting them to India and such) means that govt of India has given the approval. Its a reasonable conclusion.

It is best a shrewd speculation or conjecture. Conclusions require facts. You haven't produced even a single one.

Now, govt of India might still pull the plug in the unlikely event that BCCI is acting autonomously, and I would hope that is the case. My point simply being that its not as simple as BCCI doing whatever it wants, and then presenting it as fait accompli for Indian govt to sign.

How can the BCCI present a fait accompli to the GOI when it is the GOI that has the final say? With the power to pull the plug as you put it?

On India govt policy. Yes, based on repeated Indian govt officials who have said no kirket till TSP addresses terror, it seems to be Indian govt policy. If you are going to harp on me producing an official govt document, sorry I don't have that, nor am I going to split hairs on whether there is a signed letter by ModiJi that shows that. But unlike many other India TSP pee contacts, as I mention above, Indian govt is a part and parcel of the resumption of kirket decision making. And yes, there is sudden reversal IMO because there has been no kirket to date with TSP, and I repeat, Indian govt officials have been saying kirket and terror cannot go together, and sudden resumption now means there is a policy reversal.

Well, I follow the news as much as anyone else here, and I haven't seen any GOI official (like a minister or secretary of the concerned department) saying "no cricket until terror is addressed." But since you say "various officials " have stated this, can you produce just one such relevant official 's statement?

You keep saying there is a sudden reversal of official policy. Not just implied policy or conjectured policy, but official policy. When I ask you to please refer me to the official policy that you (not me) are talking about, you declare that I am hair-splitting.

It seems to me you want to invent your own solipsistic reality and expect others to buy it, just on your say-so.

BTW, I saw a report I believe in ToILet that Sri Lanka is the venue that is being negotiated. Lets see how it developes, but with so many reports highlighting the talks going on between BCCI and PCB on kirket resumption, I am simply cannot accept anyone's claim that all this is a lie and a figment of TSP imagination.

Cricket taking place may or may not be a lie; though I'll believe it when it happen
But definitely, until you produce an official GOI policy about cricket with Pakistan, I will assume you are making up GOI policies out of whole cloth and then attacking them.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 24 Nov 2015 04:11

KLM, two officials that come to mind are Anurag Thakur and Kirti Azad (Google them, both are BJP MPs). There are other officials too, but can't recall at the drop of a hat. But as and when I recall, will let you know. Also, please watch this following interview and Sharda Ugra touch upon this. Watch from about 1:15

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/ ... a8e99f3268

Bottom line: I am not attacking anyone in Indian govt, I am only going by by fairly reliable news reports that BCCI and PCB are negotiating kirket resumption, MoU explicitly states that govt of India approval is needed (once again I say govt approval is needed because of the terror issue, you will say produce an explicit document that says so but I can't), and I am disappointed if only because IMO, as in many others', kirket is one leverage India has over TSP given its desperation for equal equal, money, some international respectability etc. And for whatever reason Indian govt is allowing kirket to resume.

I see you don't agree with any of my positions, which is fine. I have spent way too much time on this to respond in any more detail than I have. Finally, I highlight my positions succinctly in this post: viewtopic.php?p=1938763#p1938763.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 24 Nov 2015 04:56

Isn't Jetley also a big kahuna in BCCI ? If so, that would sort of mean that BCCI already has tacit govt. approval. Else Jetley will look bad.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 24 Nov 2015 05:34

Pakis are now boasting that the threat of them boycotting the T20 World cup to be held next year in India has forced India to reconsider playing the series with pakistan. One of the Talk show host said if British mediation and facilitation of talks (in Dubai) for resumption of series has resulted in a positive outcome then the same way this formula also be applied for solving the Kashmir maslaa.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Nov 2015 05:41

sudeepj wrote: Oh I don't care about accents typos etc. but 'attained death' is just very curious. A less fluent person's first instinct is to go for a boiler plate expression, which in this case is 'attained martyrdom'. If you read the byline, its a faithful from Kashmir I think. I doubt very much that the defense spokesman used this phrase. To me, it appears a deliberate mischief by the reporter.

Fair enough. But my personal feeling is that these guys are not so erudite that they can "on the fly" mentally think of 2-3 different words. The guy probably wanted to say attained martyrdom but changed his mind. But lots of India army reports say "shaheed ho gaya" and attained martyrdom. So saying it is not a problem. In India - in Indian languages it is considered bad practice to say "mar gaya" or its equivalent in any other language. English hampers Indians by not having such subtleties taught in schools. In English the choices are "passed away/on", "no more" "died" or worst of all "expired"

Anyhow. Not important IMO

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Nov 2015 05:45

Vipul wrote:Pakis are now boasting that the threat of them boycotting the T20 World cup to be held next year in India has forced India to reconsider playing the series with pakistan. One of the Talk show host said if British mediation and facilitation of talks (in Dubai) for resumption of series has resulted in a positive outcome then the same way this formula also be applied for solving the Kashmir maslaa.

Spot on! Third party mediation. This cricket in Sri Lanka will not happen. Pakis are inverterate bluffers and I am unhappy that so much Paki sourced cricket news is becoming the norm on here. Anyhow - the climate appears to be pointing towards driving me out of here and that may be the best thing - there are other threads that are less Benis like in their character than this one.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Nov 2015 06:19

As I understand it the Indian government's stand for decades has been that bilateral issues are bilateral - between India and Pakistan and cannot have third party mediation. Pakistan has never liked that and has always tried to get the US, UN or some other body involved.

But when it comes to multilateral issues - such as that stupid SAARC, UN, WHO, Asian Games, Olymipcs, ICC - then India has no choice other than to rub shoulders with Pakis and meet them. As regards cricket I think ICC has declared Pakistan unsafe and no ICC series are being played in Pakistan. I am unsure of whether BCCI can decide to play in Pakistan as a bilateral issue. I think it can, but with BCCI being an ICC heavyweight it will lose traction if it endorses play in Pakistan and then cannot get ICC to agree when the perfectly sensible Aussies and others do not want to go to Pakistan.

BCCI has said that Pakistan is welcome to play in India pending government permission. BCCI has refused to play Pakistan in UAE, and Sri Lanka has not even been mentioned. BCCI spokespersons have said that they would play a bilateral series in Pakistan "If Lahore was made safe". Currently the Paki government apparently do not want akis to play in India. This may be a lie or simply a "playing hard to get" ploy knowing Pakis. The Indian government has said nothing, and needs to say nothing unless they want to look like Pakis

I think that it is perfectly within BCCI's mandate as a private company to take its own decisions on whether they want to play Pakistan or not. This is not a fascist dictatorship under Moditva, as some expect it to behave, that is stopping private companies from negotiating deals no matter how distasteful they might appear. Maybe that is the norm in the US and other countries, but not in India. But over and above the negotiations that have gone on between BCCI and PCB, we have the PCB like a loose cannon coming out with statements that are later disputed by BCCI. I predict, and someone can call me out later, that this Sri Lanka stuff is just one more fake news release by Pakistan. They have everything to gain if a series takes place. But they are IMO covering their asses if a series does not happen by saying "We were so magnanimous - but small hearted Indians did not agree"

Is the BCCI "anti-national" for talking with PCB? In my view they are no more anti national than any cricket enthusiast. They have made India the cricket sultan of the world. They are as anti national as Infosys. Can the BCCI stop talking to PCB? They could. But they need not. They are free to talk - knowing that when the time comes for a match it is Indian security forces who have to provide match security. Police is a state subject and individual states will have to be dealt with but the question of visas and other policy decisions lies with the central government.

My second prediction is that the BCCI is trying to look good by pretending conditional enthusiasm knowing that no series will take place. I did say earlier that waiting for a short while will let us know what is happening. Posting every Paki cricket news item on this issue here will change nothing in the cricketing world but IMO only makes this a "cricket-with-Pakistan" discussion thread - and my position on that is that the emphasis on cricket only helps us ignore the stuff that media are also ignoring - cultural exchanges and other sport exchanges that we ignore simply because the media ignore them too. Demands that the PM should get involved in this or that he has a role in cricket are interesting because, using that yardstick the PM should also be involving himself in every cultural exchange, hockey game, kabaddi game, handicraft exhibitions, every India-Pak marriage and to extrapolate that further the PM should also accept that Pakis could simply refuse to allow Sikhs to visit their holy places in Pakistan because the PM is personally stopping all exchanges with Pakistan. But by discussing cricket obsessively, a slew of broader issues are ignored. I see that as a consequence of cricket being a religion in India and Pakistan being our arch rivals. Nuclear armed India and Pakistan have fought 4 wars over Kashmir and their rivalry is seen even on the cricket field where matches are viewed as wars and losing teams have had symbolic graves dug for them in the past.

Of course I have no control over this either. If cricket must rule Indian hearts. So be it.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 24 Nov 2015 08:16

shiv wrote: Nuclear armed India and Pakistan have fought 4 wars over Kashmir and their rivalry is seen even on the cricket field where matches are viewed as wars and losing teams have had symbolic graves dug for them in the past.

Trust Shiv to get it all wrong!

Bitter rivals India and Pakistan have clashed in 127 One Day Internationals and 59 Test matches, and their animosity extends beyond that - to a burgeoning nuclear arms race and 4 wars over Kashmir.

If not in real life, then at least on BRF!

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 24 Nov 2015 08:19

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... s-reports/

I wonder what they feel about Pakis.