What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

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member_22733
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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby member_22733 » 24 Dec 2015 13:08

The "part holding it together" are nukes and the army. The Baloch and the Sindhis want to go one way. The Pashtuns want to go the other. The Sunnis want to join Arapia. The whiskey swirling gernails want to keep their loot secure. The Shias and the Ahmedias want to live to see another day.

If they were not being genocided like Bangladesis, Baloch folks would have split long back especially if they were very populous the moment large scale genocides started. If there were no threat of nukes with Bakis, at one point or the other a conventional liberation was possible.

In that respect the Baksheesh Bakistan gets from unkil in terms of Heli gunships and APCs etc are used for purposes of holding Bakistan together. In that narrow lens, there is some truth in the "demand of the whore" of her massa. But it also means Baki nukes are largely meant to keep it together and has so far been a posturing device.

I hope they change the "posturing" stand and go for mini nukes. Does not change the threat matrix for India, but has an ENORMOUS cost increase for maintance of unkil's security theater.

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby schinnas » 24 Dec 2015 13:52

Sirji, what is the driving force behind the army and the bum? Their army is uniformed jihadi force and bum is Islamic bum. It is their belief in Islam as unifying force that provides the driving force behind their jihadi army force and atum bum.

What you identified are the outside manifestations, the institutions and structures that came into being as a result of ideology or to protect the ideology. If not for the bum or army, some other institutions and structures would be there holding it together.

For an idealogical state, it is the ideology that holds it together. Everything else is Maya. To destroy Pakistan in this TS current form, one should attack the ideology, Identify factors that will hasten the realisation that the ideology is flawed and destroy the institutions that hold up the ideology. Degrading the capability of their army and bum would be necessary parts of that strategy.

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby shiv » 24 Dec 2015 14:19

Kashi wrote:
I may have missed this. I can understand that our border deployments and enhanced security posture makes it difficult for Pakis to slip in jihadis into India. Of course, it has been observed that some of them in frustration have turned on Paki army itself. But is that enough in itself to destabilise the Paki army? The closest that Paki army came to being fully destabilised was when the "Bad taliban" attacks were at their peak and before that when they suffered the ignominy of 1971. One may argue Kargil as well, but it was Badmash who ended up getting the brickbats for the fiasco, while the army gleefully conducted another coup to a rapturous welcome from the aam abdul.


No there is a percentage of the Pakistan army - maybe 40% reserved for the Indian border. The Paki army used the India excuse to fail to act against what the US was requesting them to do in the west saying that the India threat is paramount. The idea was to get the US to ask/request/coax India to reduce pressure in the east in exchange for Pakis moving troops from the east to the west. This gave India some leverage over Pakistani troop deployments. Eventually the Paki army was and is overstretched with some serious morale issues. This means that they are unlikely to initiate war as they did on earlier occasions - at least for now. It does not mean that we can initiate war and get away with it, but it does put direct pressure on Pakistan and indirect pressure on the US. The US responds by giving Pakistan more in bribes, but it cannot fully control what India is doing - it cannot force India to take a particular course of action that would enable Pakistan to wriggle free of Indian pressure in the east. By tying down Pakistani troops on the Indian border, Pakistan has to manage with fewer troops in the west, and either fail to achieve objectives that the US wants or achieve them with higher casualties or by using scorched earth tactics, tanks and aircraft against its own people - which is something that they will have to pay for in due course. As for those who turn against the Paki army in the west, Paki deployments in the east make it difficult to fight back. This is the situation that led to the Peshawar attack, and then Op Zarb e Azb, more internally displaced people in the west, and also more American arms to Pakistan. But there is nothing to suggest that Pakistan would not have got arms if India had let them off lightly at the border, by puling back troops or lowering vigil.

Kashi wrote:
shiv wrote:I disagree with this. You are confusing Pakistaniyat with Islamiyat. Pakistan used Islamiyat as Pakistaniyat - trying to bend Islam to lick western ass while attacking India. Islam has no intention of selective ass licking like the Pakistani army


I agree, but Islamiyat is closely linked with Arab beliefs and the Arab custom of Me and my brother against my father, Us against my cousin, Family against tribe and tribe against the world is strongly ingrained in Islamiyat as per my understanding. So while there may not be any selective ass-licking, they are not averse to joining hands and changing sides in a jiffy. This is where the unpredictability comes in. So how do we ensure that the chasm between the TSPA and their Islamist opponents remains "untraversable"?

There has been no unpredictability except what is reported by ignorant commentators in the press about tribes in Afghanistan. The US used Pakistan and Pakistan got paid. US aims in terms of Soviets were met, but Pakistani terms regarding defeat of India were not met. Pakistan started using jihadis against India and still did not achieve anything. India is still around and still thriving. The jihadis then went and attacked the west culminating in 9-11. This brought the US in again and the US again tried to use Pakistan to hit jihadis. Pakis played a double game by trying to preserve anti-India jihadis and eliminate a few that the US did not want. This did not work. Action against India did not resolve anything for Pakistan. And the jihadis they spared hoping that those jihadis would help in fighting India have now started fighting the Paki army and the US. Everything is predictable. US actions in trying to bribe Pakis to do their job. Pakis in trying to hit India without actually doing the US's job. Jihadis hitting out at those who are hitting them rather than those who they are ordered to hit by Pakistan.

The Islam part of it only comes in because Pakistan tried to project India as the almighty kafir while quietly but partially doing the US's job. The jihadis did not fall for that - except the "sarkari jihadis" like LeT who are in cahoots with the Pakistan army. Aside from the India/US question there are also assorted people fighting their own battles. Shia killers because Sunni Islam was propagated. Baluchis because Pakistan is using US arms to hit them. There is no unpredictability. No mystery. Pakistan needs more Islam. Islam is unambiguous. What we do after Pakistan gets its pure Islam is a different issue but the idea makes me chuckle.

.
Kashi wrote:
shiv wrote: Excuses must never deflect us from doing and saying what we must.


How is it an excuse, when it's akin to trying to convince the inmates of a whorehouse that person across the street is a whore and that's a bad thing?


No. It is pointing out to the whores that the people in the whorehouse across the street are only pretending to be whores and taking away business and spoiling the reputation of the profession by marrying wealthy customers

You said:
The Islamic nations (except Iran) are themselves enslaved to the US with all the military bases and US companies based there. The biggest one of them- KSA, is the biggest slave of them all. There people are well aware of the fact, they do not need the Paki example to make them see the reality. And of course there's the elephant in the room. Our vast homegrown "peaceful" population. If we invoke Islam in any form, there's no way we escape the repercussions on our own citizens of that faith.


Let me quibble with some of your words:
1. KSA is the biggest slave? No it is much more complex than that. The USA is a slave of the Saudi Royal family. The people of KSA have no say. But with USA being the chowkidar of the Saudi Royal family what ordinary Saudis think is of no consequence.

2. I believe it is the people of Pakistan who need pure Islam like ISIS (and previously the Taliban) brought. That means sharia and not the sort of secular pretence sham that Pakistan has. Do Pakis on the ground want sharia, or do they want pretend sharia as they have in Pakistan? It is this ordinary Paki on the ground who need to know that the Paki army is a slave of America and despite being a slave of America they have got neither prosperity nor Kashmir. Is it their fault that they have not got prosperity or Kashmir after all the sacrifices they have made? Whose fault is it? The Paki army's fault? The US's fault? Or is Islam simply not good enough? Paki people need to make their choices in this regard. Is Islam defective for not bringing prosperity and Kashmir? If the Paki army are such heroes then why has Kashmir not come despite US help? It is because the Pakistani army are not good Muslims. Islam will always be victorious for people of true faith. But aam abdul Pakis on the ground need to weigh these issues and we must do our best to inform the so they make informed choices about the purity of their Islam, the Paki army and the USA.

3. You said: "If we invoke Islam in any form, there's no way we escape the repercussions on our own citizens of that faith." This is the statement of yours that evoked my response "We must not allow excuses to stop us from doing and saying what we must" You are saying that we must not invoke islam because you think that there would be repercussions. No. We have to take the bull by the horns. If Islam is a problem we have to say it out loud. As a nation we have shown that we have never actually been at war with Islam. But if Islam continues to be intolerant and violent, our response will be different from what it has been so far. We will at least start talking about it, knowing that we cannot be killed as easily as our forebears were for saying things. The times, they are a changin'

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby Rudradev » 24 Dec 2015 16:13

On this thread, I'm seeing the conventional BRF views of Bakistan being re-updated in consonance with new observations, and it's not surprising that most available data appear to support the perspectives we've had all along. Shaped by such stalwarts as SSridhar, AGupta, Raja Ram, and Shiv among others, these ideas are so familiar to BRF-ites that it's not worth my summarizing them again here.

I myself continue to subscribe to these ideas in large measure. But just for fun (because Ramana took the trouble to start this thread) I'm going to posit something here that I'm not yet too certain about, and may not entirely agree with the view of Bakistan we all share.

What makes Pakistan tick? We do. It's us. India is the fourth of the three and a half friends.

Let's start with the premise that "Muslim" everywhere, from the individual to the state level, is a fundamentally contested identity. There is Islam, the Quran/Hadiths/Sirah and all that, which is one part of the identity... the dominant part, which drives the establishment of normative and institutional behaviour at the overt level. But just about everywhere else other than Saudi Arabia, there is some part of the identity of every Muslim that can only be described as "Islam Prime"... the cultural heritage that pre-dated the arrival of Islam.

In ALL cases, the Islam part of the Muslim identity is hostile towards the Islam Prime identity. That is the nature of Islam. Everything else, including the Islam Prime identity of the Muslim, must submit before the supreme will of Islam. BUT Islam is not powerful enough to completely wipe out Islam Prime, except amongst the denizens of Rub Al Khali where nothing else but water-drinking, date-eating and camel-phugging existed as a way of life.

In some cases, the Islam Prime identity itself was of a sort that could be made consonant with Islam relatively easily. Amongst Central Asians and Afghans for instance, the Huna and Saka memes readily lent themselves to being folded into a social and political order based on Kabila formation. Likewise amongst the Hausa of Nigeria, and various raiding tribes in Sudan and the Horn of Africa.

In civilization states the Islam Prime identity was stronger, favored settlement and the development of city-based economic systems. In Iran, Iraq and Turkey the Persian, Mesopotamian, and Byzantine memes continue to reassert themselves and Islam itself is never quite as pure. Similarly with Syria, Egypt and Lebanon.

In Bakistan the Islam Prime identity is us. The Sanatan Dharmic identity, as Shaurya has mentioned in an earlier post.

Bakistaniyat, as highlighted in that lovely M. Bourke-White article posted by Arun, hinged solidly around suppressing that Islam Prime identity by any and all means. Some of those means included pretending that their Islam Prime identity was not Hindu, but Arab. This failed because Arabs themselves, except the Saudis, have an Islam Prime identity of their own sort, which clearly does not apply to Bakis any more than lipstick on a pig. Bakis, no matter how they tried, could not fool themselves into believing that such a fundamentally alien identity was part of their own heritage.

Then the attempt was made to substitute their Islam Prime identity with the Central Asian/Afghan Islam Prime identity (the Huna/Saka memes driving Ghauri, Ghaznavi etc. rather than Mohammed Bin Qasim). This was a little easier for the Baki masses to swallow... they clearly weren't Arab, but just maybe they could pass off as Khorasanis. However, this too backfired with the events of the last decade unfolding as they did. The gun/bomb wielding Jihadis puffed full of a Khorasani Islam-Prime identity turned, not against the Dirty Kaffirs of India, but against the Baki Sarkar which they saw as a repository of the original Baki Islam-Prime identity i.e. Hindoo Identity. Hence the decade or so of jollies with Mullah Radio, Peshawar School Attack, Shia/Ahmedi halaaling, vagerah vagerah.

Now the wholesale IED-Mubaraks of the 2005-2014 period seem to have fallen silent to some extent. The question is, what exactly has allowed the Bakis to achieve this? Is it that they have... however temporarily... ceased to inflict themselves with the sort of identity crises that inevitably resulted from trying to force-fit alien Islam-Prime identities onto themselves? Is recognition dawning amongst significant sections of the elite in Slumbad that for the survival of the Baki state, and its entrenched interests, allowing the Baki Islam-Prime identity to retain its original Hindoo nature is essential?

I think it is likely that the Indian Deep State believes this to be the case... and has always believed it, whether we on BRF agree or not. This is something Bharat Karnad had hinted at during our 2011 Jirga when he said TSPA is "eminently co-optable". The idea (whether right or wrong) is that regardless of Bakistan's capacity to inflict pain on India right now... the need to keep Bakis in touch with their Hindoo Islam-Prime identity is pressing enough that India can afford to let pass whatever Bakistan does. In terms of terrorism in Kashmir, in cities like Mumbai, and everywhere else... India can deal with it in an almost entirely defensive manner while the identity crisis within Bakistan resolves slowly, inevitably, in favour of maintaining a Hindoo Islam-Prime identity.

I do not know enough to say whether this belief of the Indian Deep State is warranted or not. As with all theories, we have to see if the observations fit the postulates. I will say two things, however.

1) There has been a concerted Indian diplomatic effort to convince the US (and the other 3.5 friends) that the Indian Deep State's preferences are in their best interest. The campaign of eliminating the Indic Islam-Prime identity within Bakistan was a function of Saudi money and influence feeding the ISI's agenda from the Soviet-Afghan war onwards. Many Cold Warriors in the US believed this was a good thing, in the days that India was viewed with overt hostility in Washington. The CIA even collaborated heavily in such efforts.

Since 9/11 and its aftermath, the spectre of an Arabized or Khorasanized Islam-Prime Identity within Bakistan has become a security nightmare for the Americans. It is altogether likely that Indian diplomacy has gone a long way towards convincing the US Deep State that allowing the Indic Islam-Prime Identity within Bakistan to reassert itself is in America's best interests. In exchange for US cooperation on this front (such as blockading international sources of wahhabi funds etc.) India has for its part promised to exercise restraint in the face of Baki provocation so as not to interfere with America's Baki-dependent Afghan operations.

2) Ongoing events in West Asia, specifically the Syria situation, will only reinforce amongst the Indian Deep State the idea that the current status quo in Bakistan must be supported and shored up. They will only strengthen Delhi's commitment to a solution based on persuading the Bakis to accept and become comfortable with their Indic Islam-Prime Identity.

Why do I say this? It should be obvious. Imagine a situation in which the 3.5 friends totally abandoned the Baki State (TSPA/ISI)... or even became hostile to it, a la Bashar Al Assad. Imagine if the US somehow de-nuked the Bakis completely and cut off all aid to Slumbad, and perhaps even unleashed B52s to knock the stuffing out of the TSPA. The present Baki State would crumble, like Assad's state in Syria... but it would not fall more than an inch before masses of kabilas coalesced to fill the power vacuum and shore it up again in a different form.

The Indian Deep State sees the emergence of a Syria-like situation in Bakistan, even with nuclear weapons taken completely off the table, as MORE of a threat than the current nuclearized Baki state. Again, I'm not saying whether they are right or wrong in this perception but it's something to think about.

Consider the following analogy: TSPA battered and crippled like Assad's SAA. LeT, JeM, Haqqani Taliban and various other factions running vast territories of Pakjab and KP like ISIS and Al-Nusra (even without nukes, TNWs or whatever). Imagine China in the role that Russia is currently playing in Syria. And India in the role that Turkey is currently playing in Syria, with massive amounts of fallout within our own borders (note that unlike Turkey, we won't be able to play the soft-jihad card at all).

I think this is why the Indian Deep State will never accept the solution that Shiv proposes time and again... "let the Bakis become as green as green can get". Bakis can only get greener by trying to stamp out the Indic nature of their Islam-Prime identity and replacing it with something else. The Indian Deep State views it as a matter of faith that preserving this identity is more important than anything else, even if it means avoiding any punishment of Pakistan for such provocations as it continues to inflict upon us.

Therefore, WE keep Pakistan ticking. Wisely or not, you decide.

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby A_Gupta » 24 Dec 2015 18:02

^^^
Now the wholesale IED-Mubaraks of the 2005-2014 period seem to have fallen silent to some extent. The question is, what exactly has allowed the Bakis to achieve this? Is it that they have... however temporarily... ceased to inflict themselves with the sort of identity crises that inevitably resulted from trying to force-fit alien Islam-Prime identities onto themselves?


The brief answer to above is, IMO, that money trumps Identity Crisis, temporarily at least. The only way China is going to pour its $35 billion or whatever into Pakistan is if there is some semblance of internal peace.

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby A_Gupta » 24 Dec 2015 18:08

^^^
The Indian Deep State sees the emergence of a Syria-like situation in Bakistan, even with nuclear weapons taken completely off the table, as MORE of a threat than the current nuclearized Baki state.


Simple answer is yes; IMO, anyone thinking about it would also worry about this scenario, not just the Indian deep state; but it is not a popular view on BRF, especially in the BRF jingo scenarios of Baki disintegration.

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby A_Gupta » 24 Dec 2015 18:15

^^^
I think this is why the Indian Deep State will never accept the solution that Shiv proposes time and again... "let the Bakis become as green as green can get". Bakis can only get greener by trying to stamp out the Indic nature of their Islam-Prime identity and replacing it with something else. The Indian Deep State views it as a matter of faith that preserving this identity is more important than anything else, even if it means avoiding any punishment of Pakistan for such provocations as it continues to inflict upon us.


The problem is that the Indian Deep State has very little leverage over the greening of Pakistan. And if the Indian Deep State was really in the game, it would e.g., aggressively promote Punjabi literature. There would be a regular cross-border Punjabi literature festival. Site like this: http://www.panjabdigilib.org/webuser/se ... inpage.jsp would not be in a niche corner.
etc., etc.
Likewise with Sindhi, etc.
{This is with the understanding that Urdu is a green imposition on the native Punjabi, Sindhi cultures, etc.}

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby A_Gupta » 24 Dec 2015 18:28

We should not underestimate the power of literature.

E.g., after Archimedes was killed by a Roman soldier, ~225 BC, there was a 1400 year hiatus in the development of mathematics in Europe. The Roman Empire was way too oriented on "practical stuff only"; and the successor Christians were as mired in religious belief as e.g, the Bakis are today. When Europeans got reacquainted with the literature via Arabic; and that the authority of religion began to weaken that the culture of mathematics was eventually rebuilt.

Literature is the longest-range (in terms of time) weapon/device that a civilization has. The people who burned down libraries were consciously or unconsciously acting based on this idea.

PS: sorry, off-topic, but leaving it here for now.

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby shiv » 24 Dec 2015 19:11

Rudradev wrote:I think this is why the Indian Deep State will never accept the solution that Shiv proposes time and again... "let the Bakis become as green as green can get". Bakis can only get greener by trying to stamp out the Indic nature of their Islam-Prime identity and replacing it with something else. The Indian Deep State views it as a matter of faith that preserving this identity is more important than anything else, even if it means avoiding any punishment of Pakistan for such provocations as it continues to inflict upon us.


:rotfl:
Beautiful post! Loved it but that comment made me smile. Let me explain..

Totally agree with the comment that Paki greenness can come only by wiping out their Indic ness - and that leaves behind nothing. Zilch. Not even dry sand. That is why it is important to confront Indicness with real Islam. If people like real Islam they must embrace it. If they don't they must fight it. Pakis must decide.

Something in the back of my mind makes me allow the possibility that they will plunge on the side of retaining Indicness. Why do I say this? I don;t say it with knowledge or insight. I am guessing from a point of view of ignorance. We don't really know what the real mango Abdul Paki feels vis a vis Islam in relation to his Prime. We are, as I keep repeating, totally exposed ONLY to what the Paki army and elite tell us and the Paki army have played a perfectly Indic Brahmin Bania double game. they expose their Prime Islam to the West and when they look at India they show only dry Islam. This is why the west has been so enamoured of Pakistan - they show the depth of Indic culture they have - at least they used to show it until a brainless plodding nincompoop (Zia) and a butt hurt feudal (Zulfi) unleashed the most moronic Mullahs on their on population.

So I say (to Pakis). Sorry friends. It's toss up time. You people are Muslims, Pure Muslims we Indics are intelligent enough to read the Quran and hadiths ourselves. And we know what it says. You guys cannot pretend to be Indian. You are losers because of your Indianness - your founders said it. You guys have to discard your Indic Prime and stuff every orifice of yours with the victorious Islam YOU fukkers chose voluntarily and cheerfully. You want to join Indic you gotta earn it you mofos.

So what makes Pakistan tick? Must be Islam no? Pakistan is on a lifeline from its friends - primarily the US. They have sold their Indicness to the US as USP, denigrating India as losers and themselves as winners because Islam is democratic, peaceful. modern and anti-communist. Now Paki mofos have to prove all that. Let them prove it. And let them prove it using the Islam they love.

Or else tuck you frigging tails between your legs and swallow your egos. Those butt heads have such big egos they will probably ant to kill anti-Islam elements. They must be encouraged.

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby A_Gupta » 24 Dec 2015 19:18

^^^ If you can watch video,
http://www.ora.tv/rubinreport/2015/12/2 ... cso1ddnixn

Ali Rizvi, ex-Pakistani, ex-Muslim, says that the number of people open to rejecting Islamic belief is larger than you think.

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby shiv » 24 Dec 2015 19:36

A_Gupta wrote:^^^ If you can watch video,
http://www.ora.tv/rubinreport/2015/12/2 ... cso1ddnixn

Ali Rizvi, ex-Pakistani, ex-Muslim, says that the number of people open to rejecting Islamic belief is larger than you think.

:D

Good. Time to rub it in - Oh but you are an Islamic state no? Paki- Pure and all that? :lol: Suck it up losers

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby Prem » 24 Dec 2015 23:57

shiv wrote:
Rudradev wrote:So I say (to Pakis). Sorry friends. It's toss up time. You people are Muslims, Pure Muslims we Indics are intelligent enough to read the Quran and hadiths ourselves. And we know what it says. You guys cannot pretend to be Indian. You are losers because of your Indianness - your founders said it. You guys have to discard your Indic Prime and stuff every orifice of yours with the victorious Islam YOU fukkers chose voluntarily and cheerfully. You want to join Indic you gotta earn it you mofos. So what makes Pakistan tick? Must be Islam no? Pakistan is on a lifeline from its friends - primarily the US. They have sold their Indicness to the US as USP, denigrating India as losers and themselves as winners because Islam is democratic, peaceful. modern and anti-communist. Now Paki mofos have to prove all that. Let them prove it. And let them prove it using the Islam they love.Or else tuck you frigging tails between your legs and swallow your egos. Those butt heads have such big egos they will probably ant to kill anti-Islam elements. They must be encouraged.


And u know what, Paki know this, especially Pakjabi. And in India sickuliars. They have no defence against this argument.

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby ramana » 25 Dec 2015 02:19

RD, If the thread brings you out of lurk mode it has served some good!

I think you need to sharpen the pencil a bit more. We are still at surface level.

I see glimpses in other posters writings but they are also scratching the surface.

Soon we will dig deeper.

All recall topic is "What makes Pakistan tick?" Nothing else.

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby ShauryaT » 25 Dec 2015 02:46

shiv wrote:So what makes Pakistan tick? Must be Islam no? Pakistan is on a lifeline from its friends - primarily the US. They have sold their Indicness to the US as USP, denigrating India as losers and themselves as winners because Islam is democratic, peaceful. modern and anti-communist. Now Paki mofos have to prove all that. Let them prove it. And let them prove it using the Islam they love.

Or else tuck you frigging tails between your legs and swallow your egos. Those butt heads have such big egos they will probably ant to kill anti-Islam elements. They must be encouraged.
Fair enough Shiv. However a distinction has to be made between the elite that wields the nation-state and its masses. Making the elite eat crow is fine, allowing and not fighting to retain the civilizational links with the masses cannot possibly serve Indian interests. The distinctive approach is similar in some degrees to how the west dealt with say Poland during the cold war, making a distinction between its catholic masses and the communist state. A distinction needs to be made so that the masses know that there is an alternative approach, someone is fighting for them and it is to their benefit. Yet, at the same time wield the hammer against the elite is perfectly fine but without this distinction made, IMO you are only feeding the bigots in India, who are overcome by fear or men wearing green horns to invade us and do not give any alternative space to the masses, apart from one thrust upon them by its elites. Driving a wedge between this elite and its masses can only serve Indian interests, but it "looks like" you are just condemning the entire populace. I have no issues with the approach to rub into their egos, beat the elites up, if this distinction is made and an alternative path is presented to the masses. Jinaah won the game, rigged by the British - there is no way Jinaah succeeding in his vision can be good for India.

Although I understand why you want to rub it in (not making it personal, but to acknowledge a widely held Indian view in your representation), that their paranoia and schizophrenic policies have led them to their current state of affairs, even understand, why you prefer a blow back to its supporters, it will not change the underlying factors that makes Pakistan tick. Their policies and choices brings them bad repute, bad governance, even makes it a failed state - for a while, but these are recoverable not irrevocable state of affairs. A cynical view on Pakistan's internal disturbances, widely viewed as blow back for its poisonous policies is so what? Loosing 30,000 people in a nation of 180M and accomplishing the "objective" of getting the Taliban to be in eventual control of Afghanistan is a worthwhile goal as many in the elite of the Pakistani state see it.

RD: Good to see you posting again.

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby shiv » 25 Dec 2015 07:31

ShauryaT wrote:
shiv wrote:So what makes Pakistan tick? Must be Islam no? Pakistan is on a lifeline from its friends - primarily the US. They have sold their Indicness to the US as USP, denigrating India as losers and themselves as winners because Islam is democratic, peaceful. modern and anti-communist. Now Paki mofos have to prove all that. Let them prove it. And let them prove it using the Islam they love.

Or else tuck you frigging tails between your legs and swallow your egos. Those butt heads have such big egos they will probably ant to kill anti-Islam elements. They must be encouraged.
Fair enough Shiv. However a distinction has to be made between the elite that wields the nation-state and its masses. Making the elite eat crow is fine, allowing and not fighting to retain the civilizational links with the masses cannot possibly serve Indian interests. The distinctive approach is similar in some degrees to how the west dealt with say Poland during the cold war, making a distinction between its catholic masses and the communist state. A distinction needs to be made so that the masses know that there is an alternative approach, someone is fighting for them and it is to their benefit. Yet, at the same time wield the hammer against the elite is perfectly fine but without this distinction made, IMO you are only feeding the bigots in India, who are overcome by fear or men wearing green horns to invade us and do not give any alternative space to the masses, apart from one thrust upon them by its elites. Driving a wedge between this elite and its masses can only serve Indian interests, but it "looks like" you are just condemning the entire populace. I have no issues with the approach to rub into their egos, beat the elites up, if this distinction is made and an alternative path is presented to the masses. Jinaah won the game, rigged by the British - there is no way Jinaah succeeding in his vision can be good for India.



Shaurya my position is a deliberate and considered one with two very definite consequences. One is as you say - it is sure to feed the "the bigots in India, who are overcome by fear or men wearing green horns to invade us ". Second it is designed to shut the door on those in Pakistan who wish to retain their Indicness and force them to contend with Islam as an alternative to their Indic background.

India cannot play the role a rescue team that keeps Muslims when they want to stay, lets them out with their own land when they want to go and then lets them back in when they feel things are not right. The "Indic character and culture" must stand out on its own. Population behaviour always falls within a bell curve. In one extreme there are those who are closest to islam and have the least Indic characteristics. At the other extreme are those who reject many of Islam's tenets where their Indic culture demands such rejection. Is India going to draw an artificial vertical line on this bell curve excluding those on one side and welcoming those on the other side?

While it is very civilized and enlightened to leave a door open for those who want to retain a connection with India, it is equally important not to dismiss, forget or pseudosecularly turn a blind eye to the poison of Islam. Indic culture is old and hoary and has insinuated itself in places that Islam cannot easily reach (like dress, language, diet etc) but Islam is imposed from a very early age and is imposed in a manner designed to cause fear and loathing of anyone who is seen as transgressing on Islamic red lines. And you can be dead sure that almost every one of Paki moderates has this paranoid poison in his running parallel to a desire to retain his Indicness. Our empathy for the Indic component to a Pakis personality must not blind us to the strength and pull of Islamic poison that cause partition in the first place and provided Indic people in Pakistan with bile and loathing to their own history in an unparalleled manner. Communist Poland is no comparison IMHO.

Let me put it down straight. There is a definite fight between Indic culture and Islam. I am not going to shy away from saying this pout loud. Unless Islam bends, no point demanding Indic culture to accommodate Islam on Islamic terms. After all there is nothing unique about Islam when you come down to things like coercion and killing. Any two bit tyrant can do the same things. If Islam has been "misinterpreted" and is being given a bad name then the good things need to show up without coercion and killing of others. Pakistan is a lesson that Indic culture must learn.

Let the Paki mofos fight it out in their own country. I predict that it will be a while before Pakistan becomes Syria. It probably won't get that far. Even that will be a lesson in Islam for any of us, including you Shaurya who might be tempted to believe that only sheer bigotry causes people to be "overcome by fear or men wearing green horns to invade us ". Those people too have opinions and viewpoints and given the charming behaviour that Islamic nations have shown even within my lifetime I have a hard time dismissing those bigots as wrong. We have just passed the 44th anniversary of the independence of Bangladesh where 3 million people were killed by good Muslims. Now we worry about Syria. The joke has to be on us if we do not see Islam as a seriously dysfunctional religion and dream that it that will somehow allow goodness to ooze out if given a chance. Things do not work that way Shaurya. Pakistan should be a lesson for us. If they are so good why do we fear becoming like them? Let us behave like Islam behaves towards us.

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby RoyG » 25 Dec 2015 21:16

What makes Pakistan tick?

5% of population (almost all punjabi families) which own almost all of the land. They needed a way to protect their assets so sent all of their youngsters to PMA and started military dynasties. Justification of army rule to trick the poor masses needed an ideology so borrowed Islam's struggle against the Kafir (Hindu). Pakjabis over time captured the country and formed 3 buffer zones around Punjab. The first being the states surrounding punjab. The next being the muslim and non muslim allies in the neighboring countries (strategic depth). And finally Islamists world wide who provide rich soil for their diaspora to germinate and proliferate.

In order to keep a firm grasp over the first buffer zone they have they use security forces, tactical nuclear weapons, and migrant jihadis. They use islamists primarily for the outer two. Overtime however, they are running into a problem. When you begin the process of snuffing out everything dharmic from the country, how do you keep the vast hordes purist jihadis and the non-punjabi sessionists from ripping the country apart and laying siege to Punjab itself?

The way to destroy Pakistan once and for all is to help the two forces do it. Simply give them an outlet to voice their grievances and pay them.

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby NRao » 25 Dec 2015 21:23

Modi making an unscheduled stop in Pakistan

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby ShauryaT » 25 Dec 2015 22:07

NRao wrote:Modi making an unscheduled stop in Pakistan
NRao: This is a serious one liner from you on the thread topic right?

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby Shreeman » 25 Dec 2015 22:31

Why does pakistan survive when bursting with ticks?

Because outsiders keep going there for high tea like its a natural compulsion.

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby ShauryaT » 26 Dec 2015 00:37

>>Rudradev
>>Now the wholesale IED-Mubaraks of the 2005-2014 period seem to have fallen silent to some extent. The question is, what exactly has allowed the Bakis to achieve this? Is it that they have... however temporarily... ceased to inflict themselves with the sort of identity crises that inevitably resulted from trying to force-fit alien Islam-Prime identities onto themselves? Is recognition dawning amongst significant sections of the elite in Slumbad that for the survival of the Baki state, and its entrenched interests, allowing the Baki Islam-Prime identity to retain its original Hindoo nature is essential?

No, do not think there is some great realization there. These cold blooded pigs only know how to keep their seats warm and cozy and keep the honey and milk flowing. The instability that stemmed from the volatile regions of Pakistan over the past few years are not powerful enough to cause permanent and deep scars into the factors that hold Pakistan together. The socio-economic factors (listed in the thread) that makes Pakistan tick are strong enough to withstand these assaults. Just on a comparative scale with India to provide an example, Imagine the Hindi heartland as Punjab and the south and NE as its outlier regions. No matter what the NE may throw at the heartland, it just does not have the heft to cause permanent damage to the will of the Hindi heartland. Now take it further, imagine the South, where its own languages are relegated to a minority with its population. Couple all of this with an over investment into the security apparatus. Mis-governance has seldom resulted in a "revolution" in our parts of the world. Add up all these factors and it is easy to see the type of role the Punjab plays in Pakistan's polity.

As to the Indian deep state, it is my humble submission that if there is such a thing, it is mostly in slumber.

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby shiv » 26 Dec 2015 07:03

RoyG wrote: When you begin the process of snuffing out everything dharmic from the country, how do you keep the vast hordes purist jihadis and the non-punjabi sessionists from ripping the country apart and laying siege to Punjab itself?

You have brought out another point here that has risen to my conscious mind but I have never managed to express it - I am not talking in terms of "dharma" which is actually an appropriate expression, but in terms of simple human day to day interactions where cheating and stealing are prevented by dharma or morality or whatever you may want to call it. Most people are taught that you do not go to a shop and simply pick up something and run without paying if that is possible. Most people are taught that if you get a service, you must pay for it as that is for the long term social good.

Every now and again, when I read about Pakis, I find that these basic tenets of morality have been wiped clean. I am not sure if it is Islam that caused this but I wonder if it is a combination of Paki history in which people grabbed what they did not deserve and benefited from it, crediting their good fortune to Allah that played a role. So we find pictures and videos of freeloaders at wedding function, people who take water and electricity and don't pay, kidnapping and extortion. What is interesting is the complete absence of morality in Pakis who live abroad -say in the UK. You find a wealthy Pakistani living on the dole in the UK. And you read about Pakis grabbing as much free booze as they can on a flight. In every case these Pakistanis always claim to be very Islamic and claim victimhood if anyone takes action against them.

I really wonder whether it has been made the national policy to blame everything on enemies of Islam to an extent that it has filtered down to every Paki on the ground. Combine this with absolute lack of morality and ethics. And add to this a layer of pious Islam - claiming that Pakistan represents the best of Islam.

That is why I believe that it is vitally important not to shield islam. It is vitally important to say that Pakistani behaviour is inextricably linked with Islam, because they are self declared followers of pure Islam. I do not like the pseudoscular delinking of Islam from Pakistani behaviour wherein some secular person tells me that Islam does not say these things but Pakistanis have gone bad because of "some other reason" like suffering imposed on them because they are Muslims. No. That cannot be. If you have a nation that lives and promotes Islam, the behaviour of that nation on the international stage and the behaviour of its nationals are examples of Islam. It is as simple as that. It is not up to use to prove or disprove that. If the impression is wrong, Pakistanis have to clean it up.

Pakistan's Sunni Islamic groups that kill Shias, and has a policy of declaring Ahmedis as non Muslim, and reserves the least desirable jobs for Christians and Hindus. This is all Islam at its purest and best because that is what Pakistan represents.

Having said all this, let me return to what makes Pakistan tick. Pakistan is not ticking. It is in a state of chronic failure in which some privileged groups are in power with the support of allies. One method of looking at this is to imagine what would happen if all support form the USA and China were to dry up.

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby johneeG » 26 Dec 2015 10:41

Pakistan was created by British and sustained by American aid.

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby partha » 26 Dec 2015 12:09

Rudradev wrote:Why do I say this? It should be obvious. Imagine a situation in which the 3.5 friends totally abandoned the Baki State (TSPA/ISI)... or even became hostile to it, a la Bashar Al Assad. Imagine if the US somehow de-nuked the Bakis completely and cut off all aid to Slumbad, and perhaps even unleashed B52s to knock the stuffing out of the TSPA. The present Baki State would crumble, like Assad's state in Syria... but it would not fall more than an inch before masses of kabilas coalesced to fill the power vacuum and shore it up again in a different form.

The Indian Deep State sees the emergence of a Syria-like situation in Bakistan, even with nuclear weapons taken completely off the table, as MORE of a threat than the current nuclearized Baki state. Again, I'm not saying whether they are right or wrong in this perception but it's something to think about.

Consider the following analogy: TSPA battered and crippled like Assad's SAA. LeT, JeM, Haqqani Taliban and various other factions running vast territories of Pakjab and KP like ISIS and Al-Nusra (even without nukes, TNWs or whatever). Imagine China in the role that Russia is currently playing in Syria. And India in the role that Turkey is currently playing in Syria, with massive amounts of fallout within our own borders (note that unlike Turkey, we won't be able to play the soft-jihad card at all).

Rudradevji, I believe a Syria or Iraq like situation where ISIS like barbarian entity runs the show in Pakistan could be advantageous to India. That'll be one scenario where India could step in and recover lost territory including PoK with least international resistance. There will be some token condemnation but that's it. Nobody including human rights activists give a damn about ISIS being bombed. They don't even talk about collateral damage! The challenge is in India 'managing' such a situation in Pakistan and sealing the border effectively preventing a spill over. Question is can we / should we engineer such a situation in Pakistan? My post regarding this from a few months ago -
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6954&p=1820407#p1820407
Yeah. We need to be patient and have a long term strategy. I haven't seen any of our leaders talk about the long term goal vis-a-vis Pakistan though. Of course, every leader says we want ever lasting peace between two countries but do they really mean it? It sure is the politically correct thing to say in public. We don't want to be seen having grand plans to break up Pakistan. India's goal should probably be to create Iraq or '71 type situation in Pakistan. This may already be the case. I doubt if such goals will ever be made public. Such a situation will create room for Indian intervention which will be difficult for 3.5 friends to oppose.

There were news reports of ISIS flags showing up in Srinagar, Kashmir. If Kashmiri "separatists" are responsible for it, they are doing a terrible mistake, not that I am complaining. Them becoming greener weakens their case.

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby UlanBatori » 26 Dec 2015 14:12

Is there a thread where I can discuss/ try to understand the latest in relations between India Dera Modi Khan and Deepest and Tickest of Fiends, Pakistan pls?

Here ppl still talking of Pakistan as if Pakistan is **NOT** a fiendly country, hain? :eek:

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby shyamoo » 26 Dec 2015 20:41

I think RoyG is spot on with his analysis.

What makes pakistan tick and what enables it to continue to do so are separate but related. RoyG has focused on what makes it tick. Others have highlighted various reasons for it's continued success.

You have got to hand it to the Paki elite that have managed to create a country for themselves and how they have managed to keep it and have prospered. They will continue to succeed and I do not see how or who would be able to dismantle what they have built. Normally, any country/kingdom would go bankrupt if it were to keep a large standing army to protect it's interests. Paki elites have managed to do so with aplomb. They have been amazingly successful with their soft power. What's even more interesting is that they have managed to ensure their lifestyles/success not by paying for it themselves ( i.e. having an army to protect them ) but they have other countries pay for it while they have continued to get richer in the process.

So, how do you attack this elite? Would there even be any motivation to do so to begin with? These elite have already squirreled away their loot in various parts of the world. Getting rid of them may or may not help. They will be replaced by others that would like to replicate what their predecessors have done.

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby Karan M » 27 Dec 2015 05:13

The more green and black aka ISIS becomes better for India to do what it must, irrespective of the pro Pak elements who are always worried about Indian bigots who hate the color green and what not. Oh the horror. Them nasty Indians.

Elite in Pak may be directing the footsoldiers but the footsoldiers are definitely from the mainstream masses, who produce the Ajmal Qasabs and all sorts of two bit qasais.

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby ramana » 27 Dec 2015 23:25

RD I think we got what we will get from members. So need help in capturing the ideas on short notes and number them. We can then put them on a PICK chart and see what bubbles up.

So need volunteers for this part.

Four categories
Geo-politics : UK, US, China, 3.5 fathers, four fathers etc
Islam: KSA, GCC, Sunnis
Cultural: Not India, hate Hindus und so weiter
Other :?

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby ricky_v » 30 Dec 2015 17:08

Respected maulaners ,first post so i will try to keep it short. Is there a possibility that the indian "deep state" wants to dispense off with the 3.5 fathers of pakistan and replace it with 1 i.e India itself? I ask as there a number of similarities between the actions of our PMs after they assume office (irrespective of the statements issued earlier) in the manner of achieving the goal but taking paths suited to the mentality of the party in power. A related question would be : would an indic outlook islam practicing pakistan and bangladesh acting as vassals of india still count as Akhand Bharat? The line of reasoning i conjured was that the muslim population in our country is at a certain percentage that will go on increasing at a rate higher than that of the indics, and so behaving pro-actively india wants the ready made provinces of Hindustan at the east and west to be the areas where the said population can live "freely without intolerance" even as the entire region is integrated economically.

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby shiv » 30 Dec 2015 20:23

ricky_v wrote:The line of reasoning i conjured was that the muslim population in our country is at a certain percentage that will go on increasing at a rate higher than that of the indics, and so behaving pro-actively india wants the ready made provinces of Hindustan at the east and west to be the areas where the said population can live "freely without intolerance" even as the entire region is integrated economically.

It is important not to have unrealistic high hopes about anything to do with Islam. Caution is the word. It will not matter whether anyone is Muslim as long as violence and coercion are divorced from Islam and everyone can live by the same ancient liberal rules and enter and leave Islam at will and no one has to change his religion and name for marriage, or be divorced by summary messages, or consider women inferior by law. Some of these things are suicidal laws that we have imposed upon our own land done by famous people like Rajiv Gandhi. We need to take off our own suicide belt first.

Off topic here.

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby vishvak » 30 Dec 2015 23:49

Our intellectual massdumbastion is what keeps barbarians alive, openly terrorizing under nuke umbrella. One of these days the Baloch Freedom Fighters and BSF and Afghans should be given a fool-proof plan each and see how it works out, regardless of phreedom loving, oil giving, money giving and such otherfathers.

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby SSridhar » 31 Dec 2015 04:57

ricky_v wrote:Respected maulaners ,first post so i will try to keep it short. Is there a possibility that the indian "deep state" wants to dispense off with the 3.5 fathers of pakistan and replace it with 1 i.e India itself? I ask as there a number of similarities between the actions of our PMs after they assume office (irrespective of the statements issued earlier) in the manner of achieving the goal but taking paths suited to the mentality of the party in power.
ricky_v, welcome to the forum.
Pakistan and its 3.5 fathers Friends exist only because of India, though the Friends may also have some other reasons. Pakistan's differences with us exist at multiple levels and multiple entities are involved, in fact the entire population, due to 67 years of massive social engineering through school curricula, state agencies such as radio television and other media, religious organizations, terrorist organizations etc. There is a sense of 'enduring hostility' with us that pervades all sections of the society because we are the 'mortal civilizational enemy'. We are very different from anybody else. In fact, isn't it this difference, 'non-Indianness', that is at the core? Besides, we do not have the financial and other muscle power and goodies to offer to them to replace all the 3.5 friends, do we?

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby ramana » 01 Jan 2016 00:53

Commodore C Uday Bhaskar has a very good article on NaMo visit to Lahore.

train of thought is similar to this thread....

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby Klaus » 02 Jan 2016 06:49

The schizophrenic state/society ticks solely for the euphoria it enjoys as a result of its schizophrenia, i.e its a vicious cycle where the cause/effect (schizophrenia/euphoria) feed & sustain each other.

You will need something truly disruptive in order to be able to destroy the equilibrium and create chaos and that can only come from India.

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby Karan M » 02 Jan 2016 18:46

This for the retards who piously blather about green hating bigots in India while touting the "indic nature" of the common Pakistanis.

How bious. No entreaties to not attack innocents. No entreaties on not committing terrorism. No entreaties on being indic bla bla bla. No - just go ahead and have a meal. I am sure some WKK will spin this too as an example of indicness.

But anyone with an iota of sense can see what the nature of the TSP beast is.


http://zeenews.india.com/news/india/son ... 40801.html

Sources told Zee Media that Indian intelligence agencies intercepted four international calls to Pakistan from in and around Pathankot after 12:35 am on Friday midnight.

The terrorist spoke to his mother on phone who in turn asked him to “have food before dying”.

A group of terrorists launched an attack at the Pathankot air base early this morning.

Four terrorists have been confirmed killed in the attack in which three jawans were also martyred.

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby SaiK » 02 Jan 2016 20:19

they should still own those xerox papers that speeds up their maal half-life? or the chinese have their own men working porting and deporting from gwadar. i see many realistic ways to ticks, but we don't get to see the bluffs on paper very easily.

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby Satya_anveshi » 02 Jan 2016 22:36

cross posting from Pathankot terror incident thread:

As always just our existence itself is motivation enough for some rabid fundamentalists (which is basically a large section of Pukistan) to come and plunder. This penchant to plunder increases from left to right below

Our continued existence << Our relative Prosperity << Our relative Happiness << Our relative situational control;

Different demographics within Pukistan react differently to these Indian situations.

- Aam abdul in Pak just need our continued existence to be motivated for attack

- Middle class in Pak will become more rabid when they see us prosper (because class is relative; the more we prosper on relative basis, their middle class resembles low class)

- Elite/Intellectual class in Pak will not mind giving open calls for India to pay the price of 'imbalance' if we are seen as happy (similar to above, if we are happy and prosperous on relative basis, their intellectual class has failed and proved incompetent so will go back to roots of being aam abduls)

- Finally, their military and their sponsors will not want us to be in control.

The last was the case when Modi dictated the situation with his unscheduled visit to Pakistan to attend the marriage of PM Nawaz Sharif's daughter.

I believe this has more to do with paki military and its sponsors who are not ready for any such thaw in relationship, let alone loss of control forget about reconciliation. So, the reaction needed to be swift. If this suggestion has any weight, then pakjab will face a much bigger attack in the coming weeks so as to undo any such damage to the balance of the situation.

Land is the only thing permanent; Loss of leadership among the formal or informal forces is second best. For every such attack on India, Pak must lose one or both of the two on continuous basis.

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby SSridhar » 03 Jan 2016 03:09

ramana wrote:Commodore C Uday Bhaskar has a very good article on NaMo visit to Lahore.

train of thought is similar to this thread....

ramana, where?

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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby ramana » 03 Jan 2016 04:29

Deccan Chronicle:

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/151231/c ... -anything#

very messy web page.

Please x-post!

What is India’s Plan B?

While Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s Christmas visit to Lahore was indeed a “surprise” and can be commended for its radical symbolism, it is unlikely to lead to a substantial change in the bilateral Indo-Pak template in the near future — particularly in relation to the hard security issues that have bedeviled the relationship for three decades. This is not due to lack of earnestness or personal resolve on the part of Mr Modi, or for that matter Pakistan Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif in relation to South Asian cooperation, but due to deeply accreted structural realities in Pakistan.

The main issues that cause disquiet and anger in India in relation to the “deep-state” in Pakistan are cross-border firing, state support to terrorism and nuclear sabre-rattling. The current socio-political eco-system in Pakistan, whose origins go back to the Zia-ul-Haq years, have oriented state and society in such a manner that India is seen as the eternal “dushman-desh” (enemy country) and the Hindu the permanent kafir (infidel). This slant is instilled in textbooks at the primary stage when children learn the alphabet.

The military coup by Pervez Musharraf in late 1999, which ironically saw Mr Sharif being imprisoned and then forced into exile, and the tumultuous events that followed, including 9/11, have allowed the Pakistan military to accord unto themselves a primacy in the power grid of that country and exclusive control of hard security issues including investment in non-state entities that are rationalised as “strategic-depth” against neighbours India and Afghanistan.

The politics of Islam that enabled oil-rich Saudi Arabia to export its religious ideology has scarred Pakistan indelibly. It introduced a deeply entrenched certitude about an inflexible interpretation of Islam that privileges the Sunni school in its Wahhabi-Salafi variant. Lal Masjid, in the heart of Islamabad ,(whose siege in 2007 led to the end of the Musharraf era ) embodies this intolerant religious discourse and the hundreds of madrasas (seminaries) in Pakistan that are under this umbrella continue to indoctrinate thousands of children about the validity of adhering to this form of Islam and its terror compulsion unquestioningly.

Thus Pakistan has nurtured an eco-system where there are innumerable mujahids who are defenders of the faith — some in uniform and many who would be deemed civilian. Thus while it is encouraging that there has been no major cross-border firing in the last seven weeks — suggesting thereby that Rawalpindi, the military headquarters in Pakistan, is keeping the peace, to my mind this is nascent.

Terror groups such as the Lashkar-e-Tayyaba (LeT) that have been nurtured by Pakistani intelligence agencies and is represented by Hafiz Saeed and his constituency, are yet to be quarantined. The reluctance cum inability of the Pakistani government to pursue the Mumbai 26/11 investigation is part of the constraints posed by the eco-system spawned by a religious ideology that encourages terror. Even if the General Headquarters (Pakistan Army) in Rawalpindi support the Modi-Sharif Lahore initiative, at the end of the day the Lal Masjid certitude about what constitutes “true” Islam will be the core challenge to Pakistan’s internal stability and, by extension, bilateral ties with India.
What is India’s Plan B in the event of another Mumbai?

C. Uday Bhaskar is director, Society for Policy Studies


It is a win-win situation

There are essentially two types of people questioning the Prime Minister’s Lahore visit. The first are the conspiracy theorists who believe that it was pressure from the United States that led to the meeting with Pakistan Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif in Lahore. The second are the cynics who say that they have seen it all before and that nothing is going to change. I am no cynic but I do believe in being realistic.

The Indo-Pak relationship cannot be transformed by a single stopover. However, at a time when the impasse had stretched so long, with no one blinking, the Lahore break is typical of Narendra Modi’s diplomatic style.

Mr Modi seems to have concluded that the composite dialogue, started during the tenure of I.K. Gujral has crossed its expiry date. Hence, the move to create a new Comprehensive Bilateral Dialogue process, the modalities of which will be announced after the foreign secretaries meet in Islamabad in mid-January.

The new element in this dialogue is the focus on terrorism and this will be handled by the national security advisers. India has, therefore, succeeded in making its point — that terrorism remains its top priority.

The unexpected Lahore visit will make it that much easier for Mr Modi to visit Pakistan for the South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation (Saarc) summit in Islamabad that will be held there towards the end of 2016. The decision to go may not be easy for Mr Modi, considering the huge media attention and incidents of tension between the two countries that may crop up from time to time.

One must remember that Manmohan Singh did not visit Pakistan during his decade-long stint as Prime Minister despite the fact that he wanted to improve the ties between the two nations. Mr Modi’s Lahore visit will definitely take the pressure off next year’s visit to Pakistan.

The Lahore visit could significantly contribute towards the development of trade between the two countries and, more importantly, transit facilities through Pakistan, Afghanistan, Central Asia and Iran. There is the envisaged TAPI pipeline from Turkmenistan to India via Afghanistan and Pakistan. India is also in discussion with Iran for the Iran-Pakistan-India pipeline.

Transit agreements with Pakistan will definitely increase energy security, which is vital for India and it appears that Pakistan is sending out positive signals in this regard. Finally, by undertaking the unannounced visit, it looks as if Prime Minister Modi may be creating a favourable atmosphere for an eventual resolution of the Kashmir issue.

Dr Singh, during his tenure as Prime Minister, had almost wrapped up an agreement based on back-channel negotiations, but it could not be realised. Mr Modi is taking a calculated risk. If he is successful, he will accomplish what none of his predecessors could. If not, then he can always go back to the hard line that his party has advocated on Pakistan. It is a win-win situation for him. Atal Behari Vajpayee’s 1999 visit to Lahore, was a long awaited break-through in bilateral ties. It was meticulously scrip-ted and preceded by inten-se negotiations. In compa-rison, Mr Modi’s visit, though symbolic, is a significant move towards Mr Vajpayee’s vision of peace with Pakistan.

Lalit Mansingh is a former foreign secretary

svinayak
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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby svinayak » 03 Jan 2016 06:27

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCrea3b9Pj4

Check this out. The blackmail, the threat against India, future of India,
world opinion in which for them Pak should matter much.
Indian economy is in their radar and they think Pak is matters for Indian economy.
Being relevant is important to them. This generation has been fed this narrative for long.

TSP army is a client Army
TSP state is a client state.


These are some of the reasons which makes TSP tick.

Prem
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Posts: 21155
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Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby Prem » 03 Jan 2016 07:15



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