What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4473
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby sanjaykumar » 01 Feb 2016 04:21

Hindus themselves restrict the term idol to their own practice. Never heard no Hindu refer to Muslimsprostrating to that stone idol in the sands five times a day. It meets every definition of the term.

I disagree that the Christian idolatry is overlooked by Muslims. I do not believe crosses and crucifixes are permitted entry into the holy land of Saudis.

Kashi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3622
Joined: 06 May 2011 13:53

Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby Kashi » 01 Feb 2016 05:10

Jhujar wrote:Pashtuns are really frustrated with Paki state now. Have been Watching Pakhtun commentators on Paki TV. Majority of them have realized that they got fooled and used by Pakjabi. Little stability & prosperity in Afghanistan will be key to make them know which side of border is their bread buttered. They will take Balochistan along with them.


Perhaps the Paki strategy of strategic depth is actually strategic debt (destabilisation). As long as the Pakhtuns are embroiled in Afghanistan, they'll have less energy to focus on getting Waziristan out of their grasp. A stable Pashtun centric Afghanistan will have both the good and the bad Taliban turn their focus on Pakjabis..

vijaykarthik
BRFite
Posts: 1108
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby vijaykarthik » 09 Feb 2016 15:35

Wow - no news on the recent nuclear test and also the missile launch?

KJU did both... and if the grape vine is to be believed, it seems that KJU will try and have one more n test in a short while.

Wonder what US / UN will do now that he has defied.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54560
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby ramana » 11 Feb 2016 06:25

Couple of years ago Robert Kaplan also looked at TSP breakup and we all discussed it in the Future strategic Scenarios thread:

viewtopic.php?p=1770250#p1770250



Sudip wrote:Rearranging the Subcontinent by Robert D Kaplan

What would a terminally diseased Pakistani state come to look like? It might see more feisty regionalism in the southern provinces of Balochistan and Sind, whose leaders told me on a trip through the area some years ago that they would prefer over time a closer relationship with New Delhi than with Islamabad. These are people who never accepted a strong Pakistani state to begin with and always advocated more federalism. With Balochistan and Sind moving closer to India, and the Afghanistan-Pakistan Pashtun border area in permanent disarray because of turmoil inside Afghanistan according to such a scenario, then a rump state of Greater Punjab might begin to emerge — again, denied for years by officials up until the point that it is undeniable.


Image

Happy Christmas folks



Only thing is it wont happen unless K_P goes and joins Afghanistan or is allowed to join a new Pashtun state with Northern Alliance state.
I also don't like Sindh to be part of any Pakjab entity.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54560
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby ramana » 16 Feb 2016 05:44

Another thing is unless Pakistan is tamed or broken up, no settlement with China can happen ever.

Let me explain. India cannot be seen settling any more territory to Pakistan. The PVNR govt passed a resolution on Kashmir for this very purpose. Ipso facto the same idea is exhibited towards China.

Pulikeshi
BRFite
Posts: 1513
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 12:31
Location: Badami

Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby Pulikeshi » 16 Feb 2016 10:12

ramana wrote:Another thing is unless Pakistan is tamed or broken up, no settlement with China can happen ever.


This is perhaps true... but beyond a few other guru log on the thread I've come to a more radical conclusion -
India is what makes Pakistan tick - the way it does!

Jingo's wet dreams aside - the Indian state seems satisfied with a Manchurian Mughal Emperor (MME) -
in Isloo... too complex for me to explain in writing... but the fake capital and fake MME was shifted in 47, but the strategy remains.
Pakistan has been treated as a rump state by India - what appears as 3.5 is actually 3.5 + 1.
71 makes sense in a different way - not excusing the Paki inhumanity - India got her way to this new normal.

The goals of the 1 may be sometimes aligned and otherwise not with 3.5 - but expect Pakistan to remain and the
China border to remain an issue till a natural rebalance is achieved (no I do not mean just economic).

India has shown that the US in Af-Pak is in her interest and provides a net security necessary for her
transformation. Nothing has changed, even the silly pulling up of the ambi for a dress down is just good drama.
There is no sellout, no spinelessness, no dilly dallying, it is cold hard calculated realism at work if you can see it.
More importantly if jingos can stomach it, because the raw power that some want on display a'int gonna happen.
As I have said before on this forum - even if another attack occurs expect chai biscoot and uninterruptable onlee!
India is that smart, for now, it needs current Pakistan intact!

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54560
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby ramana » 17 Feb 2016 22:25

Pulikeshi, Yes +1 was Congress party in India. Its part of the Partition plan that it wouldn't erase Pakistan in order to keep Anglo-Saxon interests in Middle East intact.

However Middle East is itself boiling and churning.
So Caroe's 'Wells of power' are changing and to stay steadfast to long nullified promises is plain silly like the 'Boy stood on the Burning deck' syndrome.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby shiv » 18 Feb 2016 08:36

sanjaykumar wrote:Hindus themselves restrict the term idol to their own practice. Never heard no Hindu refer to Muslimsprostrating to that stone idol in the sands five times a day. It meets every definition of the term.

This is an insightful observation. Hindus did not even have a concept that considered worship in any form as bad - and they simply swallowed every negative accusation that was made about their own "idol" worship. Fact is there is nothing wrong with worshipping an idol. God ain't gonna kill you for it, and Muslims are too indoctrinated to realise that what they do is idol worship too. Makkah itself is one huge idol that Muslims face and circumambulate just as a Hindu might face and circumambulate his favoured deity

It is plain bigotry to say "Your idol worship is bad. My idol worship is not idol worship". But then bigotry is normal in the practice of Islam. But no one must complain because we are secular and all secularists must accept anything imposed on us as religion. If it is my religion to be a bigot and my book says it - others can stuff it.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54560
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby ramana » 28 Mar 2017 06:11

One page 1, I quoted Emma Duncan's excerpt from "Breaking the Curfew" on what makes Pakistan tick:

Pakistan such an interesting place to observe. It has three sets of history, and three sets of standards. It has the baggage of ideas that go with Pakistan, Urdu and Islam; It has the British Package; it has the ancient local base of Punjabi, Sindhi, Baluch and Pathan culture. The different layers fit badly together; and when they contradict each other, people start telling lies to others and to themselves.


This is an apparent layer cake model I talked about in Sunnyvale talk in 2009! (Prem and svinayak!!!)

In above cake model the base is ancient sub-national cultures: Punjabi at the center and Sindhi, Baluch and, Pathan at the periphery. The top layer is again three with Pakistan, Urdu and Islam. The British package is like the middle icing that binds the two layers.

We see now that the bottom layer is fracturing. The British package or the glue that binds the two layers is rotten away.

And the Islam in Pakistan is now more and more sectarian Sunni Islam. Recall recently the clerics from Nizamuddin in Delhi were harassed by ISI and Sushma Swaraj had to intervene.

The UP elections and the rise of Yogi Adityanath as CM is another blow to the idea of Pakistan as Ganga-Jamuni tehzeeb goes down the drain.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14045
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby UlanBatori » 28 Mar 2017 07:12

It is useful to remember that Pakistan, if it so chooses, can decide to live a completely non-India-obsessed existence. Imagine if they actually pulled the military away from the border, made peace with Afghanistan and Iran, and decided to focus on economic development. The Cradle of Civilization, flowing from Mohenjodaro and Harappa! The summer resorts of the Mughal Emperors. The nation that spawned Hanif Muhammed, Majid Jehangir and Pervez Musharraf and Hasina AtimBum! Located as always at the strategic Armpit of South Asia. So let's not write them off, unless we are willing to really stay the course and smash them to pieces. Which I doubt if the PRC will allow without serious repercussions.

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21163
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: What Makes Pakistan tick? Discussion thread

Postby Prem » 28 Mar 2017 10:00

Paki obsession about India is hereditary, genetic and religion induced mental make up. They can't live without and we have this great lever to manage Paki behavior which India have only begin to use. Paki reaction is predictable. They are confused and scared ever since MAD team took over the reins in Delhi. Paki leaders are having heard time convincing Aam Abduls that they matter Vis a Vis India.


Return to “Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Ambar, Kritavarman and 33 guests