Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

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sudarshan
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by sudarshan »

Another thing I had doubt is that like Ankit, we are also playing the arcade game. And we can't abort the game in between. And we are also expected to realize that this is a Maya world and focus on attaining Moksha. But since we can't abort, how do we play the arcade game? even when we don't want to? How do we navigate between not accidentally killing a sputnik? Aka overcome Dharm sankat or dilemmas? When we have become desireless, doesn't it mean we have lost the desire for life? Arjuna lost the desire to battle and Krishna had to make him understand so that he could fight again. And over the years many people had different takes on it and the final message became diluted. So I want to know what is the point of playing out the rest of the game? When we can put it on autopilot and just focus on getting back to 'divya'? But that isn't what Krishna adviced Arjuna. He asked him to fight in for his share of kingdom, cause the death and suffering of many people and eventually the end of kuru clan. Why didn't Arjuna just renounce the 'game'? Shouldn't he have followed the path of renunciation?
About "aborting the game."
  • We are in this universe to fulfill our own desires, yes
  • So if and when we become free of desire, we no longer have a personal reason to continue "playing the game"
  • So are we allowed to "abort" then?
  • Nope, there is also another principle at work, the law of karma
  • We will have to continue "playing the game" till our karmic consequence is fulfilled
Why? Consider this analogy.
  • There is this country, a paradise of material fulfillment
  • A certain guy in this country suddenly decides - I've had enough of this country, I no longer desire to live here
  • He petitions his govt. to revoke his citizenship, so he can live in another country of his choice
  • Govt: Sure, if you no longer wish to live here, we are not going to force you, you can emigrate to a country of your choice
  • [list]
  • However, there is this Re. 80 lakhs mortgage, which you still haven't closed
  • Please close that, and then you are free to go
[*]The guy says: but I no longer wish to live in this country, I will no longer be bound by your laws, so just pardon my mortgage and be done with it![/*]
[*]Govt: Sorry dude, you will have to close it before you leave.[/*]
[*]The stability of the bank is not going to be compromised just because you "no longer wish to live here"[/*]
[*]The financial security of another 20 to 30 citizens is tied up with your mortgage[/*]
[*]We will not clear your emigration unless and until you pay up[/*]
[/list]

Getting the picture? This is a karmic universe. We live and interact with hundreds or thousands of other beings (not just human) or even with trillions of beings (if one counts our interactions with bacteria, viruses, grass, worms, etc.), and our karmic consequence is intimately tied up with theirs. God is not going to allow their desire-fulfillment (based on their karmic consequence) to be jeopardized, by allowing any of us to vacate this material plane without living out our karmic consequences. Regardless of whether or not we become free of desire.

I believe this is why sages and saints, even after attaining enlightenment, continue living out their karmic consequences. Many of them fulfill their obligations by teaching disciples. They even suffer from incurable diseases, or get tortured by political opponents, to fulfill some of their earlier negative consequences.

Basically, if the guy above had chosen to continue living in the country, he could have paid off his mortgage in 25 years. Since he wanted out, he had to find a way to pay it all in a month. Likewise, if those sages had continued in the material plane, they could have paid their karmic dues over maybe 25 lifetimes. If they want out because they become desire-free, they have to pay it all in the rest of that life.

When Sri Ramakrishna got diagnosed with cancer, his disciples started whispering that he had taken on their sins for them. Naren (later known as Swami Vivekananda) set them right on this. Please make your own inferences, with regards to any other religion.

This is why Ankit could not simply "abort" the game and walk away. In the story of Ankit and Divya as it stands, the analogy is imperfect, since Ankit is playing a single-player game, so one doesn't see the negative consequences of an "abort." If he had been playing a multi-player game, just like we all do in the material plane, then one could clearly see that he couldn't abort, without the other players yelling and demanding their money back from the arcade.
Last edited by sudarshan on 02 Oct 2021 22:52, edited 1 time in total.
sudarshan
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by sudarshan »

And if a formless entity loves us and our end result is reunion with God, then what's the point of all the rituals and worshipping idols? Even Christians and Muslims will say that they are closer to realizing God than us because we are focusing on pointless rituals while they focus on a formless entity.
Please read the first five verses in chapter 12 of the BG, to get an idea of formless vs. form WRT God. God says Her preference is to be worshipped with form, although it is perfectly ok to worship God as a formless being also.

Besides, yes, God is formless. God is also with form. As the MB says - "adrishyo vyakta rupascha" - that which is invisible, and that which also has visible form. One doesn't have to be constrained to regard God as formless. Regarding God as an entity with form is also a perfectly valid approach.

Rituals being pointless - consider:
  • A guy owes a mortgage payment to the bank (yes, again :))
  • When the bank comes calling, he says, "oh, but I already gave the money to charity, so we're even"
  • The banks says "WT*&#(??" - you giving money to charity in no way fulfills our contract
  • The guy says - dude - I owed Re. XX,000, I gave Re. XX,000, so what's the issue?
  • Bank - you should have paid that amount to us, and filled out a form, so the proper formalities were fulfilled. Sorry, but we're going to have to foreclose.
The law of karma can't be satisfied, simply saying - "I did something bad, so now I'm doing something good, and they will cancel." The bad thing we did, will yield its own results, and the good thing will independently yield its own results. If we want to cancel out past sins by doing good deeds, we need to formally apply for that - and that's where the rituals to propitiate a certain deity come in. On top of those rituals, we are also expected to give to charity, or feed hungry people, or something like that, so that the consequences from those good deeds go to cancel out our bad deeds. Most people just do the rituals and forget the charity.

It used to be, that when babies were born, the parents would go to an astrologer to see what was expected in the baby's future. The astrologer might say - "this planet is in a bad position, so when the baby reaches 25 years of age, this misfortune could happen." The parents would then say - "what can we do to mitigate that?" And the astrologer would specify how to propitiate a certain planet or deity, and then give money to charity on the baby's behalf, so that the consequences of that charity would formally be applied to closing out those past karmic consequences from a previous life.

The baby would then pay back the parents, once grown up, by taking care of them in old age and such. If the child failed to do that later in life, that would generate its own consequences in the next life. And so on.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by AshishA »

Thank you both Sudarshan ji and Cyrano ji for your posts. Quest for self realization of truth is a life long journey, and both of you and this thread in general has helped me immensely in that.
sudarshan
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by sudarshan »

AshishA wrote:Thank you both Sudarshan ji and Cyrano ji for your posts. Quest for self realization of truth is a life long journey, and both of you and this thread in general has helped me immensely in that.
Hope you weren't intimidated by the long and numerous posts. What I'm saying is very simple.

The original social context of the Ramayana or MB might seem strange to people from our times, even for Indians.

So - step away from that original social context. Set up some hypothetical situations, within our current modern context. Assume a democratically elected govt., which truly has the best interests of its citizens at heart (not a loony-dominated govt., obviously).

Within this context, set up some realistic scenarios, with a guy who is scared to do his duty because it involves going against - or even killing - his family. Things like mortgage payments or other social contracts are also intuitive for modern folk to understand. You will find that the advice or injunctions which the govt. gives to its citizens, within these modern situations, are the same as what Krishna said to Arjuna way back then.

Further, if you assume an all-powerful God who has 2 fundamental principles to enforce - desire fulfillment; and the law of karma - you will find that this God behaves the same way as the above govt., and that you can rationalize the behavior of this God.

OTOH, you will not be able to rationalize the behavior of a jealous, domineering God, who insists that only his chosen few can attain heaven, and the rest will rot forever. (You might be able to rationalize the behavior of such a God by assuming a loony-dominated govt., though).

That's all I was trying to show with my examples above. People say - "all that was way back then, is it still applicable today?" My response is - "all that has survived to this day, because it is universally applicable - but only if you assume a rational social construct, not a loony-dominated one."
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by SriKumar »

AshishA wrote:Thank you both Sudarshan ji and Cyrano ji for your posts. Quest for self realization of truth is a life long journey, and both of you and this thread in general has helped me immensely in that.
It may be shorter than you think. The problem is that these 'religious' aspects are not introduced in school-age kids and after a while they appear to be very deep and un-reachable concepts for the common person, and people start to believe that only someone doing ghor tapasya of a mythical rishi can attain to such knowledge and/or realization. I am slowly coming to the realization :D that is not so and it is more a matter of getting the right kind of introduction to some concepts at a young age, (say,7-8 years old) or or any age- 60 years old. The important thing to be exposed to some concepts and approaches, and after that a person will be able to figure out many things by himself/herself over time and put himself/herself on the path.

See link below. I have found videos by Swami Sarvapriyanada to be very clear in this language and communication- he did a Business degree before he went towards advaita. Moreover, he absolutely understands how people are intimidated by all this, and modulates the message accordingly. Type in a keyword along with his name and you'll get some nice introductions: keywords could be: education, studentship, mental concentration and focus, avoidance of fear, worry, or it could be self-realization, advaita vendanta, the pancha koshas, Adi Sankara, Chapters 15 & 16 in Bhagavad Gita, or even Ahstavakra Gita (people have said that after Ashtavakra's Gita, there is only silence ).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXYg-ZLJYbM

All I can say is get a start on this, and dont worry about how deep and difficult it is to have self-realization- that apprehensiveness is a total and complete waste of time. You already have a huge head-start on this if you have any interest in this area- which you clearly do. There are gems along the way to pick up even if you dont get to the goal of self-realization in this lifetime. (Note: he comes from the Ramakrishna Order, so he follows the teachings of Vivekananda and therefore the perspective is advaita vedanta, though he is knowledgeable about other schools of Hindu philosophy).
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by sudarshan »

SriKumar wrote: .
.
.
Wondering if you saw the bit about the weekdays and their (most likely) Indian origin. The astronomical aspect of this might be of interest to you. OTOH, you might have already followed the earlier discussion with Shri Oak and might know about this already.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by AshishA »

sudarshan wrote:
AshishA wrote:Thank you both Sudarshan ji and Cyrano ji for your posts. Quest for self realization of truth is a life long journey, and both of you and this thread in general has helped me immensely in that.
Hope you weren't intimidated by the long and numerous posts. What I'm saying is very simple.

The original social context of the Ramayana or MB might seem strange to people from our times, even for Indians.

So - step away from that original social context. Set up some hypothetical situations, within our current modern context. Assume a democratically elected govt., which truly has the best interests of its citizens at heart (not a loony-dominated govt., obviously).
No. I actually enjoyed reading the posts. Rather than being intimidated, I actually thought all those posts starting from the Ankit and Divya story made a lot of sense. It was very easy to understand using the analogies and parallels and also from a STEM perspective. And I believe the 3 axioms does really explain a lot of things and it can be something almost every Hindu can agree on. I had actually read Gita a few times over the years, even tried understanding what it was saying but my rational mind always came in between. And my STEM backrgound also made me skeptical. It also didn't help that many of the interpretations of Gita, Upanishad etc were conflicting. One day I was thinking that yes I must surrender to God. But then I wondered why would God demand my surrender? And then science made me think that yes maybe God created everything but why would he care for us? That made me agnostic. The only reason I didn't turn atheist was because I felt atheism was a cult whose members were mostly the from the unholy combination of closet Islamists, closet EJs, and Commies. While I might have doubts about God at that time but I don't tolerate targeted attacks on our culture. The only reason I kept coming back to Gita was that I felt all those people who have kept transferring this wisdom for 10,000 years couldn't have been wrong. There was something I was missing.

But the last few months had helped me reach a conclusion on this. Gita Rahasya helped a lot due to it's parallels with western philosophy, Buddism, Jainism, Christianity. And It really showed that me that how Gita was superior, logical and practical. And God exists.

The rest of lingering doubts I had were cleared here in BRF. I really like the model you have made. I was thinking of sharing the Ankit and Divya Story and all the axioms and rest of the things with my friends.
SriKumar wrote: It may be shorter than you think. The problem is that these 'religious' aspects are not introduced in school-age kids and after a while they appear to be very deep and un-reachable concepts for the common person, and people start to believe that only someone doing ghor tapasya of a mythical rishi can attain to such knowledge and/or realization. I am slowly coming to the realization :D that is not so and it is more a matter of getting the right kind of introduction to some concepts at a young age, (say,7-8 years old) or or any age- 60 years old. The important thing to be exposed to some concepts and approaches, and after that a person will be able to figure out many things by himself/herself over time and put himself/herself on the path.

See link below. I have found videos by Swami Sarvapriyanada to be very clear in this language and communication- he did a Business degree before he went towards advaita. Moreover, he absolutely understands how people are intimidated by all this, and modulates the message accordingly. Type in a keyword along with his name and you'll get some nice introductions: keywords could be: education, studentship, mental concentration and focus, avoidance of fear, worry, or it could be self-realization, advaita vendanta, the pancha koshas, Adi Sankara, Chapters 15 & 16 in Bhagavad Gita, or even Ahstavakra Gita (people have said that after Ashtavakra's Gita, there is only silence ).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXYg-ZLJYbM

All I can say is get a start on this, and dont worry about how deep and difficult it is to have self-realization- that apprehensiveness is a total and complete waste of time. You already have a huge head-start on this if you have any interest in this area- which you clearly do. There are gems along the way to pick up even if you dont get to the goal of self-realization in this lifetime. (Note: he comes from the Ramakrishna Order, so he follows the teachings of Vivekananda and therefore the perspective is advaita vedanta, though he is knowledgeable about other schools of Hindu philosophy).
Actually the reason I said Self Realization is a life long journey is because I want to keep myself on the toes so that there is no scope for complacency and arrogance. From a perspective of a learner, it's better to keep learning and learning till death.

I am actually very much thankful to the internet because I could get all kinds of knowledge at my fingertips these days. So even though I wasn't taught when I was young, I was able to find a lot of things on my own thanks to the internet.

I will check out Swami Sarvapriyanada.

Btw I am seeing that world over, despite having everything many people are unhappy. So I feel that before the knowledge of Gita is plagiarized and rebranded by the west, this knowledge should be spread vigorously so that it can help out a lot of people through out the world. Like for example, many follow stoicism which is nothing but a subset of Stithapragya concept. So if these people are introduced to Sthitapragya, they will be eventually be exposed to Gita. Internet will definitely help in this.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by SriKumar »

sudarshan wrote:
SriKumar wrote: .
Wondering if you saw the bit about the weekdays and their (most likely) Indian origin. The astronomical aspect of this might be of interest to you. OTOH, you might have already followed the earlier discussion with Shri Oak and might know about this already.
If you are talking about the post on the previous page, I did see it. The connections are uncanny and I had noticed this many years ago- Ravi var (for Sun day, Ravi = Sun), Saturn-day for Shani vaar etc. But I am sure you discussed more details than this and my one-liner does not do justice. I did not catch the original discussion with Nilesh, though.

I did try to follow Nilesh's date estimation of MB and 'Arundhati walking in front of Vishwamitra' and the astronomical phenomenon associated with it. I was genuinely interested in that, until it got too complex, primarily on the interpretation of certain sanskrit phrases in MB as they describe astronomical phenomena. I recall even Amber.G joined the 'fray'. :)
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by SriKumar »

AshishA wrote:Btw I am seeing that world over, despite having everything many people are unhappy. So I feel that before the knowledge of Gita is plagiarized and rebranded by the west, this knowledge should be spread vigorously so that it can help out a lot of people through out the world. Like for example, many follow stoicism which is nothing but a subset of Stithapragya concept. So if these people are introduced to Sthitapragya, they will be eventually be exposed to Gita. Internet will definitely help in this.
It would absolutely not surprise me to find out that Stoicism (by Marcus Aurelius?, circa 150 A.D.) was derived in part (or wholly from Gita). The timing is about right. The Greeks, as I understand it, (during Alexander and Megasthenes' times- about 200 B.C. ) engaged with Indian philosophers (yogis) to the point that they took some (atleast one) with them. I am sure the yogis knew about the Gita directly or indirectly, since a lot of Gita was derived from the Vedas and Upanishads.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by sudarshan »

SriKumar wrote:If you are talking about the post on the previous page, I did see it. The connections are uncanny and I had noticed this many years ago- Ravi var (for Sun day, Ravi = Sun), Saturn-day for Shani vaar etc. But I am sure you discussed more details than this and my one-liner does not do justice. I did not catch the original discussion with Nilesh, though.
Yes, there were more details than that, specifically - where does the ordering of planets within the week as - Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, Saturn come from?

The key fact is that the only explanation for the above order comes from an Indian source, the Surya Siddhanta. No other known source from anywhere else in the world exists, which explains the above order. From this, we can conjecture that most probably, the weekday concept came from India.

The explanation for the ordering is simple. Arrange the planets in their "natural order," according to one specific criterion (I will come to this):

Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon

The day has 24 hours. Our current conception of a "day" starts at midnight (12:00 AM), but as Nilesh kept saying, the Vedic day starts at 6:00 AM, roughly the hour of sunrise. (This fact however has no bearing on the matter at hand).

In typical Indian fashion, pundits would have decided to have each hour of the day "ruled" by a specific planet, in the above natural order. So the first hour of the first day (whenever the calendar starts) would be ruled by Saturn, the second by Jupiter, the third by Mars, etc. After the 7th hour (Moon's hour), the 8th hour would again be ruled by Saturn, the 9th by Jupiter, etc. So the 22nd hour would again go to Saturn, the 23rd to Jupiter, and the 24th (last) hour of the first day to Mars.

Which means the first hour of the next day would be ruled by the Sun. And the first hour of the third day by the Moon. So the first hours of successive days would be ruled by:

Saturn, Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, and Venus

which is of course the ordering of the week days, except with a shift to have Saturn first.

I asked Nilesh back then - "does this mean that the first day of the Indian week used to be Saturday?" And he confirmed - most probably - yes. We surmised that maybe, that's why Friday/ Shukrvaar/ day of Venus (the last day of the Indian week) would have been special.

So now the question boils down to - what is that original "natural ordering" of the planets, and where does it come from?

It comes from observation of the night sky.

Saturn------------------30 years (around the sun)
Jupiter-----------------12 years (around the sun)
Mars--------------------1.6 years (around the sun)
Sun---------------------1 year (this is actually the earth's orbital period, but it would seem to earth-based observers that the sun's period was 1 year)
Venus-------------------220 days (around the sun)
Mercury----------------88 days (around the sun)
Moon-------------------29 days (this is really around the earth)

From a geocentric perspective, the above periods would not be exactly the same as from a heliocentric one, and there will be retrograde motion to account for, but the fact will remain that Saturn will seem to be the slowest planet in the night sky (moving against the background of the fixed stars), and the Moon the fastest. Mercury (Hermes) was deemed the "messenger" by the Greeks because of how fast he moved with respect to the fixed stars (for earth-based observers, the motion of both Mercury and Venus would be superposed on that of the sun), but the fact is that the Moon is way faster.

This is the rationale presented in the Surya Siddhanta, for the ordering of the week days.

Incidentally - nothing to do with week days - one might have heard the term "hermaphrodite" as applied to earthworms, etc., meaning, these organisms are both male and female in the same body, and can reproduce just like that. The term comes from "Hermes" and "Aphrodite" - male and female, similar to our "Ardhanareeshwar."
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by Kaivalya »

From this, we can conjecture that most probably, the weekday concept came from India.
Sudarshanji - Why is this a matter of conjecture?

The lineage of the calendar and hence the week system has been traced to indian vedic roots by dharampalji painstakingly. Please refer to the section of "Remarks on the astronomy of the brahmins" if you have not come across the book " The beautiful tree" Actually all of his books must be made "must read"
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by sudarshan »

^ Well if one hasn't heard of Dharampal, one can only conjecture, right :). Thanks for the pointer, I'll look it up.
AshishA wrote: No. I actually enjoyed reading the posts. Rather than being intimidated, I actually thought all those posts starting from the Ankit and Divya story made a lot of sense. It was very easy to understand using the analogies and parallels and also from a STEM perspective.
My original intent in looking at SD from this angle was precisely this - people these days spend so many years in STEM fields, and then struggle to connect to SD. Can one use those 12 to 20 years' worth of STEM training to get a head-start in understanding SD? Scientific reasoning is based on deductive logic, which starts from axioms. So an axiom-based view of SD would be ideal to connect with STEM-trained folk.

However, it must be kept in mind that all logic, including science, is limited by its axioms. Whereas the fundamental truth, according to SD, is independent of axioms, beyond logic itself. So use the deductive approach to get a grip on SD, and then continue the quest for truth from there on.

It's very gratifying to see that the approach worked in your case at least. Exhilarating and humbling at the same time.
And I believe the 3 axioms does really explain a lot of things and it can be something almost every Hindu can agree on.
I think we can go further than that. I think the axioms should be something that, technically, almost every *dharmic* can agree on. That includes Hindus, Jains, Buddhists, and Sikhs. Jains and Buddhists discard axiom 1 - all-powerful God. Both religions are agnostic at the core. How can they be agnostic and work just with the remaining 2 axioms? How can they say "you don't have to propitiate God, regulating your desires and actions (axioms 2 and 3) is good enough?"

They can do this, because of the "disinterested" nature of God. If Indians had thought of God as being domineering and demanding worship, then Jainism or Buddhism would never have taken off, would have never got away with saying "don't worry about propitiating God." Can an Abrahamic religion do away with the notion of God?

SD and Sikhism retain the notion of God. By doing this, they add additional paths to moksha - Bhakti yoga being the primary one. Jainism and Buddhism work only with Jnana and Karma yoga, Bhakti is obviously out if the faith is agnostic.

But what I want to say is - the "disinterested" nature of God means that, technically, any religion which postulates that it is unnecessary to worry about God's existence, and to only focus on an ethical life - well, that religion implicitly accepts a "disinterested" God, and is implicitly dharmic. And technically, atheism is such a religion. It is a different matter, as you point out below, that certain "rationalist" sects have appropriated atheism. Your spidey sense did good to steer you away from that, IMHO.
I had actually read Gita a few times over the years, even tried understanding what it was saying but my rational mind always came in between. And my STEM backrgound also made me skeptical. It also didn't help that many of the interpretations of Gita, Upanishad etc were conflicting. One day I was thinking that yes I must surrender to God. But then I wondered why would God demand my surrender? And then science made me think that yes maybe God created everything but why would he care for us? That made me agnostic. The only reason I didn't turn atheist was because I felt atheism was a cult whose members were mostly the from the unholy combination of closet Islamists, closet EJs, and Commies. While I might have doubts about God at that time but I don't tolerate targeted attacks on our culture. The only reason I kept coming back to Gita was that I felt all those people who have kept transferring this wisdom for 10,000 years couldn't have been wrong. There was something I was missing.
Again, IMHO, this is the right approach. Being skeptical is fine, but it is also good to keep in mind the possibility that one might be missing something. If, after repeatedly searching for that "missing something," one still can't find it, then one is justified in rejecting it. Kudos. Again, the STEM background was exactly what I was trying to work with, in coming up with that axiom view.
But the last few months had helped me reach a conclusion on this. Gita Rahasya helped a lot due to it's parallels with western philosophy, Buddism, Jainism, Christianity. And It really showed that me that how Gita was superior, logical and practical. And God exists.

The rest of lingering doubts I had were cleared here in BRF. I really like the model you have made. I was thinking of sharing the Ankit and Divya Story and all the axioms and rest of the things with my friends.
How do you plan to share it? Were you going to direct them to BRF, or were you thinking of forwarding the material to them? That short story is part of a longer novel. Also, be selective of who you share it with. If you share with the wrong kind of (crypto) guys, you could end up painting a target on your own back.

My parents assumed that kids of the "modern" era would not be interested in all these spiritual matters. I think a lot of parents of kids of my generation made the same mistake. As a result, I had to delve into things on my own later. I hope the current parents don't do the same. It is tempting to think that kids who have everything - connectivity, transport, food, and entertainment, will be happy as-is, and will not need any spiritual comfort. Or will not care about it. That's a dangerous assumption.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by Cyrano »

Nice posts sudarshan garu.
It is tempting to think that kids who have everything - connectivity, transport, food, and entertainment, will be happy as-is, and will not need any spiritual comfort. Or will not care about it.
Material progress frees up time and the mind starts asking more and more existential questions. When popular culture offers no satisfying answers, religious institutions have no credibility, family structures are weakened and elders are no longer seen as respectable sources of wisdom - this is exactly the status of the prosperous west today - these unanswered questions become deep rooted existential angst.

The youth and adults in the west deal with it in various reactionary ways - by becoming hedonistic (drown the questions in pursuit of pleasure), join dubious cults and get exploited (like scientology, various new age Xtian denominations, or jump between desert cults Xtianity and Islam), or become atheists (throw the questions away altogether), or anarchists (like Green movements, Xtinction rebellion), fall into substance abuse, depression, suicide... the statistics are beyond alarming. Clueless parents blame the schooling system and the state, the state blames the parents, the kids blame everyone else and continue their descent into hell.

There are sections of India following the same path as well. The recent dharmic revival thats slowly emerging in India is the only ray of hope.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by AshishA »

sudarshan wrote: My original intent in looking at SD from this angle was precisely this - people these days spend so many years in STEM fields, and then struggle to connect to SD. Can one use those 12 to 20 years' worth of STEM training to get a head-start in understanding SD? Scientific reasoning is based on deductive logic, which starts from axioms. So an axiom-based view of SD would be ideal to connect with STEM-trained folk.

However, it must be kept in mind that all logic, including science, is limited by its axioms. Whereas the fundamental truth, according to SD, is independent of axioms, beyond logic itself. So use the deductive approach to get a grip on SD, and then continue the quest for truth from there on.

It's very gratifying to see that the approach worked in your case at least. Exhilarating and humbling at the same time.
Actually I think that approach is even good for people who haven't spend years in STEM field. They can relate to the story and then understand the axioms easily. That's why our Hinduism places so much importance to Mahabharat and Ramayana. So that everyone can know the fundamental truth.

I agree that using the axioms we will begin to scratch the surface. Our current knowledge is a drop in whole ocean. So to even comprehend the fundamental truth we have to keep building on the current knowledge. It amazes me that our ancestors achieved so much regarding this with knowledge of their time. Their work should be carried forward by us.

Yeah. Your approach did work in my case and honestly I am thankful that I stumbled upon it by chance.
I think we can go further than that. I think the axioms should be something that, technically, almost every *dharmic* can agree on.

But what I want to say is - the "disinterested" nature of God means that, technically, any religion which postulates that it is unnecessary to worry about God's existence, and to only focus on an ethical life - well, that religion implicitly accepts a "disinterested" God, and is implicitly dharmic. And technically, atheism is such a religion. It is a different matter, as you point out below, that certain "rationalist" sects have appropriated atheism. Your spidey sense did good to steer you away from that, IMHO.
I am not sure about the other dharmics. Buddhists of other countries might but many of our Indian Buddhists are Amberkarites. They have preconceived notions about Hinduism and view it as a threat. Sikhs have also been gone far away from the dharmic side, they are finding more in common with Abrahamics and view Hinduism as inferior to Sikhism. Not many like to change their beliefs that they have held since their childhood.

I do agree that SD can accommodate Sikhism and Buddhism. Technically, they are the branches of the main tree, but right now I don't think they would like to admit that.

I agree that any religion that proposes ethical life and postulates that it is unnecessary to worry about God's existence is implicitly dharmic. Even atheism can find space in SD. But what's most important is being open minded when accepting this. Tbh even Savarkar was atheist yet he understood the importance of Hinduism and embraced it unlike the current lot. I don't understand how were the 'rationalist' sects able to appropriate atheism. Both Abrahamic religions don't tolerate atheism.
How do you plan to share it? Were you going to direct them to BRF, or were you thinking of forwarding the material to them? That short story is part of a longer novel. Also, be selective of who you share it with. If you share with the wrong kind of (crypto) guys, you could end up painting a target on your own back.

My parents assumed that kids of the "modern" era would not be interested in all these spiritual matters. I think a lot of parents of kids of my generation made the same mistake. As a result, I had to delve into things on my own later. I hope the current parents don't do the same. It is tempting to think that kids who have everything - connectivity, transport, food, and entertainment, will be happy as-is, and will not need any spiritual comfort. Or will not care about it. That's a dangerous assumption.
I was initially planning of sharing the short story because they might not be interested in BRF in comparison to reddit or twitter or Instagram or Facebook. You were planning to publish the novel. Has the novel been published? If so, I can send them amazon link and also order it myself.

I am also very selective with what I share with whom. I stay away from crypto guys as far as possible. Tbh they reveal it themselves when their hatred of Hinduism is revealed in their online posts. But I have seen that those who want the self help or self growth of themselves are generally receptive about this. I shared a concept about how stoicism is a part of Sthitapragya, my Filipino Christian friend liked this.

I feel that it depends on the kind of environment. Currently, I feel with rise of youtube, many might be interested in spirituality. Kids learn a lot from the Internet these days. My mother is religious and my father is agnostic. My school was a DAV, so it created a ideal environment for me to grow in spiritual matters. Currently, I feel with the rise of internet and along with it a lot of problems, spirituality is more needed than ever for the current generation.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by sudarshan »

Will respond to posts later, but two things for now.

1. When people mock SD for having "so many Gods," one can point out that SD is also perfectly comfortable with the idea of NO GOD. Nastika is very much present in SD tradition. So SD can handle any number of Gods, all the way from zero to infinity. Beat that.

2. On the eve of Navratri, I'd like to request that Hindus start unambiguously referring to God as "SHE" and "HER," especially in English communication. Hindus (including the men) have no problems, and feel no shame or embarrassment, in bowing down to a female figure and accepting her as the supreme. The wokes, in their quest for the perfect pronoun, have mandated that one should always use "she" never "he." Not even "he/ she." But that's in everyday conversation. Fine, take that to its logical conclusion, and let's see if they have what it takes to keep up. They want to do one-upmanship, we'll top them by doing one-up-woman-ship (i.e. - that ONE woman who is UP there, above all of us, running the ship).

SD has never seen femininity as weakness. Think of how Dhritarashtra and his entire court, including mighty Bhishma, Drona, Kripa, all trembled before Panchali's wrath and hastened to return everything her husband had lost, fearing her curse. Or how after the war, the Pandavas, including mighty Bhimsen, trembled like leaves and pleaded with folded hands to escape Gandhari's wrath.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by Kaivalya »

I had missed modiji's reference to "mother of democracies"

https://indianexpress.com/article/opini ... y-7552182/

There are two pillars of the modern world. The first is science-based rational thinking, and the second is democracy. It is also telling that both are often believed to be Western inventions, reflecting Western ascendancy over our world.
The evidence for republics in ancient India has always been available in plain sight. In the Mahabharata’s Shanti Parva, republics (ganas) are mentioned along with the essential features of administering them. The Vedas describe at least two forms of republican governance.
Last edited by Kaivalya on 06 Oct 2021 07:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by SriKumar »

sudarshan wrote:^ Well if one hasn't heard of Dharampal, one can only conjecture, right :). Thanks for the pointer, I'll look it up.
Interesting this...about the weekdays. Did not know the origins only the nomenclature. I wish they had gone for an eight celestial body and given us a 8-day week, with a 3-day weekend! Jokes apart, conjecture is always good because people who conject (is this a word? :D well it is now) can conject up new stuff that may not have a reference out there. Things are more alive when there is live human behind the words/idea.

In line with your comment about god being a she, ardhanareeswara can be used to out-woke the woke...it speaks to a trans-gender form of a god, no less (a step beyond the lowly earthworm).
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by sanjaykumar »

Your post Sudarshan is a type of pandering to current breezes in the west. Yes the female archetype of shakti is a civilised contrast to a psychotic, sadistic, arbitrary god or prophet.

Abrahamics and Sikhs are obsessed with ritualistic religiosity in the approach to their gods.

Hinduism is ultimately not about phantasmagoria but ultimately about men/women. And whatever gives them comfort in a harsh world. From village nature gods to advaita Vedanta.


The rest will come up. Currently they are not fit for purpose.

This is not to deny any of the unfortunate baggage in Hindu culture. The saving grace is there is no real source code, no metric from which one may stray. And yes those nasty nastiks have a place in Hinduism. Ipso facto Hindu thought and practice are intrinsically superior to all ancient religions.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by sudarshan »

sanjaykumar wrote:Your post Sudarshan is a type of pandering to current breezes in the west.
I think you're reading it wrong. When an Indian scholar puts in the effort to learn linguistics and then shows that even according to those rules, the indicated direction of language spread is still from India outwards, is that pandering? It would be, if he were trying to impress the west, but the fact is, he is trying to win back the mindshare of colonized and mesmerized Indians. If there were no mesmerized Indians, he wouldn't have bothered.

Indian youth (adults too) tend to be awed by the "progressiveness" from out there. If they see that by that same yardstick, India was and is more "progressive," the awe dissipates. Pandering would be, when the other side feels smug about having made you fall in line. If what you do instead causes intense khujli, and they can't outdo or even match you without going back to the temple of Athena, and they drop their posturing as a result, then you win.

Take a look at Kaivalya's post above. Was Modi pandering? He was saying - whatever *it* is, you are not *it*, we are *it*.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by sudarshan »

@AshishA - Admins have disabled my PM rights. Pretty sure they allow it for all other users. If I confront them, they will smilingly deny it :-?. And all these other chamcha members will chime in merrily, denying that they have PM rights :-?. And then they'll PM each other and giggle at me.

We can take it offline through email if you want, regarding that story.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by AshishA »

sudarshan wrote:@AshishA - Admins have disabled my PM rights. Pretty sure they allow it for all other users. If I confront them, they will smilingly deny it :-?. And all these other chamcha members will chime in merrily, denying that they have PM rights :-?. And then they'll PM each other and giggle at me.

We can take it offline through email if you want, regarding that story.
So should I share my email on this thread? Or should I PM you? If your PM rights are disabled, then you also can't receive message? And how to send a PM here?
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by sudarshan »

AshishA wrote: So should I share my email on this thread? Or should I PM you? If your PM rights are disabled, then you also can't receive message? And how to send a PM here?
I don't think members are allowed to receive or send PMs at all, it's not just me. I was kidding above, when I said it was only my rights which were disabled :). Sorry if I confused you, I think only admins can send PMs on this board.

Give me a day or two, I'll figure which is the best way forward and get back.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by sudarshan »

Cyrano wrote: Material progress frees up time and the mind starts asking more and more existential questions. When popular culture offers no satisfying answers, religious institutions have no credibility, family structures are weakened and elders are no longer seen as respectable sources of wisdom - this is exactly the status of the prosperous west today - these unanswered questions become deep rooted existential angst.

The youth and adults in the west deal with it in various reactionary ways - by becoming hedonistic (drown the questions in pursuit of pleasure), join dubious cults and get exploited (like scientology, various new age Xtian denominations, or jump between desert cults Xtianity and Islam), or become atheists (throw the questions away altogether), or anarchists (like Green movements, Xtinction rebellion), fall into substance abuse, depression, suicide... the statistics are beyond alarming. Clueless parents blame the schooling system and the state, the state blames the parents, the kids blame everyone else and continue their descent into hell.

There are sections of India following the same path as well. The recent dharmic revival thats slowly emerging in India is the only ray of hope.
Yes, it's the combination which is deadly. Progress has the kids asking more questions, not less. This is counterintuitive to the parents, who assume the opposite, i.e., that because the kids have things and opportunities which the parents never had, that the kids are "happy" and will not be bothered about spiritual things. That makes it all the worse, and when I think back now, this phenomenon was already visible in my own generation. In the western world, there's the additional phenomenon of the parents not getting along, heading for divorce and time-sharing their own kids, or experimenting with their own wildest desires and fantasies. The grandparents used to fill in, at least in India, but nuclear families eliminate that. In the west, the grandparents are no help even if they are around, because the grandparents are also busy doing their own things!

Schools in the west actually need to step in to keep children safe from their own parents. Only, the schools are doing their own social experiments. So the govt. has to mandate rules on what are the acceptable forms of disciplining one's own kids, and arrest parents who don't comply, otherwise the parents might end up going overboard and killing their own kids (I believe one of the preferred ways is to lock the kids into hot cars).

Hoping India doesn't end up aping all this.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by Vayutuvan »

sudarshan wrote:The grandparents used to fill in, at least in India, but nuclear families eliminate that. In the west, the grandparents are no help even if they are around, because the grandparents are also busy doing their own things!
My observation is that Indian grandparents are a little overbearing. They don't give enough space to the parents. They start teaching "morals" through totally dumbed down neeti kathaayEn from the epics and puraaNaa. Most of them had been paper-pushers (all of them had been doing clerical jobs irrespective of the designations - IAS, PSU engineer, Probationary officer in a public sector bank, LIC, and literal UDC and LDC jobs as well as judges and lawyers, journalists (?), CAs - district HQ CAs in the olden days used to get their money from trying to find loopholes to save money for local businesses, emporia, fancy shop owners, and other traders). What exactly can they teach their grandchildren?

This is too much of a simplification of the complex network externalities that have an oversized impact on Indian society at large. The pace of urbanization coupled with customer-facing service sector jobs put a premium on form over function.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by Vayutuvan »

SriKumar wrote:... people who conject (is this a word? :D well it is now) can conject ...
I think conjecture is both a noun and a verb.

You can say "... people who conjecture can conjecture ..." I think. Please correct me if I am wrong.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by sudarshan »

sudarshan wrote:
AshishA wrote: ...
Give me a day or two, I'll figure which is the best way forward and get back.
I haven't forgotten this, it's just been a busy week.
Vayutuvan wrote: My observation is that Indian grandparents are a little overbearing. They don't give enough space to the parents. They start teaching "morals" through totally dumbed down neeti kathaayEn from the epics and puraaNaa. Most of them had been paper-pushers (all of them had been doing clerical jobs irrespective of the designations - IAS, PSU engineer, Probationary officer in a public sector bank, LIC, and literal UDC and LDC jobs as well as judges and lawyers, journalists (?), CAs - district HQ CAs in the olden days used to get their money from trying to find loopholes to save money for local businesses, emporia, fancy shop owners, and other traders). What exactly can they teach their grandchildren?
According to what you say, is there anybody who is qualified to teach anybody else? We're all imperfect. Were any of our teachers in school that dedicated? Maybe one out of twenty. So long as the teaching is not malicious, and the person teaching is reasonably competent, it is still beneficial.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by Vayutuvan »

sudarshan wrote:So long as the teaching is not malicious, and the person teaching is reasonably competent, it is still beneficial.
I am not sure about the "competent" part. baalavihaara run in the US are run by incompetent folks who think they are doing good by teaching them "the right values". But they start using term like Hindu Mythology and how ekalavya was mistreated etc. It is very difficult to make them unlearn. I did not send my children to any of those classes.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by Kaivalya »

Vayutuvan wrote:
sudarshan wrote:So long as the teaching is not malicious, and the person teaching is reasonably competent, it is still beneficial.
I am not sure about the "competent" part. baalavihaara run in the US are run by incompetent folks who think they are doing good by teaching them "the right values". But they start using term like Hindu Mythology and how ekalavya was mistreated etc. It is very difficult to make them unlearn. I did not send my children to any of those classes.
+1 Vayutuvanji. They mean well. Unfortunately they rely on tv serials and twisted english translations. Here is unwrangling of karna character from the usual propaganda from vyasjis mahabharatha

I dont mean to add to the earlier discussion. My limited point is that there is a lot to unlearn by everyone. We need a systematic check on popular discourses

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by Vayutuvan »

Kaivalya ji, thanks for that link. Ami Ganatra seems to have an unique POV. Do you recommend MB Unravelled?
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by Kaivalya »

Vayutuvan wrote:Kaivalya ji, thanks for that link. Ami Ganatra seems to have an unique POV. Do you recommend MB Unravelled?

Vayutuvanji - Gita press is the most reliable translation ( aside from oral sampradayas that are still maintained) . For example:



For those who think , these errors are common misunderstandings, I will post nityanand misrajis videos that critique these so called scholars. These so called scholars translated a word " sailushi" to mean pimp. The context was Sita Mata calling ramji to be an actor (real meaning of sailushi) when he suggests sita Mata to stay in the palace as opposed to going with him to the forest. Then these scholars refer to each other translations and they get used by the likes of Audrey truschke for psycho analysis drivel.

MB unraveled has a better take on it and can be used with gita press imho.

On a side note please refer to a series sanskrit non translatable from infinity foundation. English is ill equipped to describe samskritam. For example everyone assumes guru is a teacher. But there are so many words like acharya, adhyapaka etc. With varying meaning that is all lost in english

Edit : Found the video : https://www.facebook.com/RajivMalhotra. ... 753513541/
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by Vayutuvan »

I recently bought MB English translation by Debroy. I know enough samskrutam and can read Hindi well. Probably I should get the original verses from BORI. It would take enormous amount of time and effort to read through though. :-(
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by Cyrano »

My observation is that Indian grandparents are a little overbearing. They don't give enough space to the parents. They start teaching "morals" through totally dumbed down neeti kathaayEn from the epics and puraaNaa. Most of them had been paper-pushers (all of them had been doing clerical jobs irrespective of the designations - IAS, PSU engineer, Probationary officer in a public sector bank, LIC, and literal UDC and LDC jobs as well as judges and lawyers, journalists (?), CAs - district HQ CAs in the olden days used to get their money from trying to find loopholes to save money for local businesses, emporia, fancy shop owners, and other traders). What exactly can they teach their grandchildren?
Not my experience. My grandparents (though I lost 2 out of four fairly early) were a fantastic source of cultural and civilisational connect. They taught us tales from Ramayana, Mahabharata and puranaas during bedtime, and at anytime as stories. Told us about the importance of our festivals and how to celebrate them. Taught us songs, shlokas, rituals, practices. Made us taste wonderful traditional recipes (and special festival recipes) that are fast disappearing these days. Taught us the importance of cleanliness, personal hygiene, respect for elders, teachers, to care for the needy, to treat animals with care, built endearing family bonds, and made us understand that we are proud descendants of an ancient civilisation and need to be its worthy successors, about how to conduct oneself with dignity with a quiet confidence arising from within no matter where you go and whom you are with, based on the knowledge that we have been taught time tested values that are infused with a sense of righteousness.

Not exactly in those terms, not by tutoring and moralising us everyday, but all these years later, I do realise and acknowledge that that they taught us all the above in varying doses by their own example, the rules they set in the house, the way the interacted with others in the family and in the society, and gave us these learnings with generous dollops of love and an occasional chiding :)

My working parents had a far lesser influence on us than our grandparents in those very early formative years. That doesn't mean the old and the new didn't sometimes clash, but that happens in every generation.

In fact, taking care of an infant child itself is taught to mothers by grandparents. How to suckle, clean, massage, bathe, dress, succour and play with infants is not something most mothers are able to do instinctively. Similarly, my grandparents have been good counsel to my father to help him take on this role as well.

My grandparent's role in my life started long before I was able to recognise them as grandparents. I'm forever indebted by such multigenerational "pitru/matru ruNa" and hope I stay worthy of it and transmit at least some of it when my turn comes.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by Cyrano »

In fact I got teary eyed typing the above and remembering them. May be I've been incredibly lucky. But I believe having grandparents who have positively influenced the lives of their grandchildren is not such a rare phenomenon, far from it.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by Mukesh.Kumar »

শারদীয় শুভেচ্ছা to all BR forum members on ther occasion of দুর্গাপূজা.

For the first Tinder in my life I did Pitru Tarpan this time. Like a lot of people who grew up with English as de facto first language I had lost connect with my roots. I did not do something elaborate. Just tried to do the rituals by myself.

It gave me peace.

One of the biggest challenges for people like me is the lack of material in English. Given that a large proportion of urban India is most conversant in English it would be great to have consisted texts and translations.

If there are any, would appreciate links.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by Vayutuvan »

Cyrano wrote:Not my experience. My grandparents (though I lost 2 out of four fairly early) were a fantastic source of cultural and civilisational connect. They taught us tales from Ramayana, Mahabharata and puranaas during bedtime, and at anytime as stories.
My experience is the same. But I am talking about current day grandparents. For example, one grandpa wanted to test IQ of his 5 year grandchild. I told him to not do it. If the kid gets a high score, the only value it has is for bragging. OTOH, a low score saps confidence.

Memorization from CSR, Current Affairs, for IAS and assuming that it is high IQ and high intelligence is what most of the current day babus at all levels suffer from.

They grew up in Nehruvian socialist India where ranks, passing bank exams/CA, coaching classes galore. I am sure you have seen sadguru's college talks in India and in the US/UK.

Ther contrast is stark. Even IIM folks have no analytical skills to speak of leave alone the maturity one would expect from so-called creme de la creme. The same cartoonish drama played out at NAL. The questions that came from kids at Harvard/LSE (?) were extraordinary. We learn something from the talk and especially Q&A.

Their parents are grandparents now. These folks will have their own children real soon now. What exactly these grandparents going to teach them other than to show how "successful" their children were in getting into these "prestigious" institutes? They do the same piss poor job they did with their kids.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by Vayutuvan »

In fact, I have seen IAS, rank promotee secretaries, and bank officers and CAs actively engaging in consulting with each other on how to get Supplementary Social Security Income (SSI) benefits when they are brought to the US by their citizen children. SSI is for destitute folks in that folks cannot have more than 600$ income and less than $2K assets. In one case, one such father filled out application truthfully. The SS Official told him that he can't get SSI to which he replied that a lot of my son's friends' parents are getting SSI and they have more assets and draw more pension than I do. The officer asked for the names, called those and fined them on top of recovering the monies disbursed till then.

What do they do with that money, you might ask. I have seen these folks taking expensive toys, Lindt chocolate, for their grandkids back home in desh. And some even took suitcases full of cashew and baadaam. Export quality Cashew, which is in fact imported from India.

Not all do that of course. But the higher position they retired in desh, the more the tendency to look for loopholes in the US law and massage their application properly. One route they take is to get their Indian asset valuations from their colleagues who are still in service to be able to avail SSI. Others have asked the companies their children work for to put them as working some job in the company (small companies will do it gladly because they can pay less to their kids) so that they can avail company health insurance and get social security income after 10 years being on "the payroll".

The usual refrain is vElu vanakara peDtE kaani venna raadu.

izzat kachraa hO jaati hain. What "values" these folks are going to teach their grandchildren?
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by Vayutuvan »

Mukesh.Kumar wrote:শারদীয় শুভেচ্ছা to all BR forum members on ther occasion of দুর্গাপূজা.

For the first Tinder in my life I did Pitru Tarpan this time. Like a lot of people who grew up with English as de facto first language I had lost connect with my roots. I did not do something elaborate. Just tried to do the rituals by myself.

It gave me peace.

One of the biggest challenges for people like me is the lack of material in English. Given that a large proportion of urban India is most conversant in English it would be great to have consisted texts and translations.

If there are any, would appreciate links.
Why not do it through Zoom? Some folks can even explain to you in English. You can do it yourself but it is best that a brahmaNa does the mantra and you do the karma. Otherwise, it is a little difficult to do both at the same time. Even barhamaNa themselves get another barhamaNa to read the mantras for them. You need three brahmana - one chanting the mantra and tell what to do, one representing the person for whom the shraddha karma is being performed, and another to represent all ancestors. It is hard to find brahmaNas in that profession in the US. There are a lot of restrictions on those who are in the shraddhakarma profession.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by Cyrano »

Current generation grandparents 60+ would have barely started on the post-colonial path. Despite whatever conditioning and faults they may have, I still believe they have something to offer their grandchildren. The decolonisation is up to our generation to drive.
Vayutuvan
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by Vayutuvan »

Cyrano wrote:(1)Current generation grandparents 60+ would have barely started on the post-colonial path. ... (2) The decolonisation is up to our generation to drive.
Not my generation but your generation. :((
Kaivalya
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by Kaivalya »

Vayutuvan wrote:I recently bought MB English translation by Debroy. I know enough samskrutam and can read Hindi well. Probably I should get the original verses from BORI. It would take enormous amount of time and effort to read through though. :-(

You have gone way past the average reader with bori. I am not an expert to opine on the differences between bori and gita press especially from first hand knowledge. Maybe some day :roll: To negate useless nonsense about ekalavya/drona, karna etc is an easier task...Increasing the thoughtfulness on public discourse is harder...and we have to try
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