Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

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Cyrano
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by Cyrano »

Wishing a very happy Dussehra, Dasara, Vijaya Dashami, NavaRatri celebrations to all !

From https://www.artofliving.org/navratri/colors-of-navratri

Nine colors of Navratri 2021

The nine colors of Navratri 2021 are yellow, green, gray, orange, white, red, royal blue, pink, and purple.

Every year, while the colors remain the same, the order varies depending on the day Navratri falls. Here is a list of the Navratri colors 2021 in a snapshot:

First Day (7th October) - Pratipada - Yellow
Second Day (8th October) - Dwitiya - Green
Third-Day (9th October) - Tritiya - Grey
Fourth Day (9th October) - Chaturthi - Orange
Fifth Day (10th October) - Panchami - White
Sixth Day (11th October) - Shashti - Red
Seventh Day (12th October) - Saptami - Royal Blue
Eighth Day (13th October) - Ashtami - Pink
Ninth Day (14th October) - Navami - Purple


Significance of Navratri colors

Each of the nine days of Navratri are dedicated to the nine avatars of Goddess Durga - the Goddess of Shakti or power. Each of the nine colors of Navratri symbolizes the quality of the Devi.

Yellow: The first day of Navratri is the first incarnation of Devi – Shailaputri - daughter of the mountains. She is the absolute form of Mother Nature and symbolizes strength. Yellow is the color of brightness, happiness, and cheer. It is a wonderful way to start off the nine-day celebration.

Green: The second day of Navratri is the second incarnation of Goddess Durga – Brahmacharani – the female seeking spiritual knowledge. In this form, Goddess Durga or Parvati goes to the verdant mountains to do penance. This is where her prospective consort, Lord Shiva is. She joins him here in asceticism. Hence, green color symbolizes growth, nature, and energy.

Grey: The third incarnation of Devi is Chandraghanta. She wears a gray-colored half-moon on her forehead. The gray also symbolizes her mood, ever ready to fight to destroy the foes of her devotees.

Orange: The fourth incarnation of Goddess Durga is Kushmanda. The luminosity and brightness of this Devi, with her bewitching smile, light up the sun. She is powerful enough to live in the Sun. Hence, the color orange symbolizes her happiness and energy.

White: The fifth incarnation of Devi is Skandamata – mother of Skanda or Kartikeya, the war-god. The Devi holding her baby in her lap is a symbol of the purity of a mother’s love. It also symbolizes peace, purity, and prayer in devotees’ hearts when they worship her. Hence, the color white.

Red: The sixth incarnation of Devi is Katyayani. She is a fierce form of Goddess Durga believed to be formed out of the anger of the Gods. Therefore, the color red is associated with her. Red also symbolizes action and vigor.

Royal Blue: The seventh incarnation of Devi is Kaalratri. She is a destructive form of the Goddess and is also called Kali. Her powerful energy is embodied in the color blue.

Pink: The eighth incarnation of Devi is Mahagauri. She is the fulfiller of all desires. The color pink symbolizes hope and freshness of perspective.

Purple: The ninth incarnation of Devi is Siddhidatri. She is the giver of knowledge and helps you achieve your aspirations. Hence, the color purple represents ambition and power. (Also celebrated as Saraswati Puja)

<<<>>>
Vayutuvan
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by Vayutuvan »

nice. didn't know about colors.
Cyrano
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by Cyrano »

A perhaps initially unintended but later on wilfully perpetuated colonial sleight of hand is the Mercator projection of the world.

In 1589, Flemish geographer and cartographer Gerardus Mercator invented this method of making a rectangular/cylindrical map of a spherical world. By making all longitudes parallel and equidistant north to south, it aided ocean navigation when European colonisers set out to discover new lands (and old legends like India) to conquer and exploit. However, it distorts the size of the landmasses the further you go (north or south) from the equator by enlarging them. This makes countries like Canada, US, Russia, many in Europe, even China and Australia appear much larger than they really are. Greenland for instance appears bigger than the whole of African continent whereas in reality its area is less than 7% of Africa. Most books and maps also follow Mercator projection since it suits rectangular paper used in printing.

Image
The net result is we feel northern countries are a lot bigger than reality, and this influences the perception of relative geographical size of countries to our disadvantage. We have seen Mercator maps so often and exclusively that most of us accept this distortion unknowingly and unquestioningly.

A comparison of both overlaid:
Image

Please share this and educate those around you, especially kids.

And here is an interesting website that lets you play with the true sizes of countries:
https://thetruesize.com/
Aditya_V
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by Aditya_V »

One thing to Note though- is the Scandinavian Countries are quite large, Now wonder like Australia they are able to live off thier substansive Natural resources with a low population.
sudarshan
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by sudarshan »

Cyrano wrote: In 1589, Flemish geographer and cartographer Gerardus Mercator invented this method of making a rectangular/cylindrical map of a spherical world. By making all longitudes parallel and equidistant north to south, it aided ocean navigation when European colonisers set out to discover new lands (and old legends like India) to conquer and exploit. However, it distorts the size of the landmasses the further you go (north or south) from the equator by enlarging them. This makes countries like Canada, US, Russia, many in Europe, even China and Australia appear much larger than they really are. Greenland for instance appears bigger than the whole of African continent whereas in reality its area is less than 7% of Africa. Most books and maps also follow Mercator projection since it suits rectangular paper used in printing.
Seems like some inaccuracies in the above paragraph.

The Mercator projection was certainly created for navigational purposes. It was well known even at the time (1589) that it would distort map areas. However, it doesn't do this by making longitudes parallel and equidistant north to south. There are many projections which do that, which however are useless for navigation.

The feature which makes Mercator good for navigation purposes, is the fact that directions are preserved. So a sailor could measure the angle between current position and target position on the paper map, and set the tiller of the ship to that direction, and then forget about it (theoretically - practically, the ship would drift due to winds or currents). Because the directions on the map correspond to actual directions on the globe. A line of constant direction on the globe is called a "loxodrome" or "rhumb line." In reality, on the globe, this line would seem to be a spiral, and the Mercator projection "flattens" these spirals onto the plane map. The north or south poles, from any other position on the globe, would yield seemingly infinite spirals if one plotted the loxodrome on the globe (these are converging spirals though, so the actual distance is not infinite). This is reflected in the Mercator projection, by the fact that the north and south poles cannot be represented on a Mercator map - they would both be at infinity (in opposite directions).

With other projections, loxodromes are not preserved, i.e., the projections don't preserve direction. So if a sailor were to take a map in - say - the Hammer-Aitoff or Stereographic projection, measure the direction between current position and target, and set the tiller on the ship to that direction, the ship would end up going to a very different place (assuming no drift from wind, etc.) than expected. So the Mercator projection basically enabled some kind of rudimentary "auto-piloting" in an age where there were no computers. Basically, sailors could set their tiller, and if they got blown off course during a storm, they could do a new sextant observation for latitude, a chronometer observation for longitude, and then refer to the map and set the tiller to a new course.
Most books and maps also follow Mercator projection since it suits rectangular paper used in printing.
Not sure what this means, most projections suit rectangular paper.

As an interesting aside, there was this guy called Arno (?) Peters, who claimed to have invented a new projection (the so-called Peters projection) which corrected this "historical injustice" of the Mercator map, by representing true areas on a flat map. Instead of publishing his projection, he called a press conference and got his few minutes of fame.

In reality, the "Peters" projection was already known - it should be known as the "Gall projection." There are also (and were also, even at the time Peters claimed his invention) many other equal-area projections, which were more aesthetically pleasing than the Gall projection. A critic said the Peters projection represented the continents as a line of "long, ragged underwear hung out to dry."

One can go to Duck-Duck-Go and search for "Equal area projections," and one will get a long list. But all of these projections, while representing areas accurately, will distort some other aspect of the spherical globe - distance, direction, etc. The only reasonably accurate depiction of the surface of the earth, is a spherical globe. One can realize this by taking an orange peel, and trying to flatten it out. One will have to stretch/ shrink/ tear it in some way to lay it flat.

You can also see that on the Mercator projection, Antarctica appears bigger than all the other continents combined! If developing countries had been far south of the equator instead of close to the equator, the Mercator projection would have shrunk the current developed world and emphasized the current developing world. The northern bias in the Mercator projection, comes from the northern bias of the earth itself - the northern hemisphere has close to 70% of the earth's land areas.
Cyrano
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by Cyrano »

Thank you for the scholarly correction of my lazy short cut summary. You can't get away with much on BRF ain't it? :P

The geography teacher at my son's school told me he makes a point to always emphasize that the most used Mercator world maps distort relative sizes and not to use it for drawing conclusions about relative sizes/strengths of various countries.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by sudarshan »

Cyrano wrote:Thank you for the scholarly correction of my lazy short cut summary. You can't get away with much on BRF ain't it? :P
Not with nerds like me on the prowl :).

I got interested in map projections for a book project. Then there was another hobby, making historical (and other) maps of India. I also made a map to show that the rape capital of the world wasn't India, but a certain superpower :). That was one interesting map, where I was able to show the scale of the problem in various countries, both in terms of absolute numbers, *and* in terms of per-population numbers, in an intuitive way on the same map. Very revealing (and I don't intend any shady puns by that). I need to get back to those projects.

As an aside:*************************

The rape statistics for India look very similar to the current COVID numbers, I must say. India is close to the top in terms of absolute COVID case counts, because of her sheer population. The USA still dwarfs India, though, and per-population-wise, the USA is 6X worse off than India. With the rape numbers, the USA looks even worse off than 6X India - more like 15X or 16X on a per-population basis. Which can be stated differently as - the USA, with 1/4th of India's population, still manages 4X as many rapes per year. And before somebody starts off with "most rapes not reported in India" - that is the case in the USA also, officially, it is accepted that the true count in the USA could be 6X the reported figure, but it is more like 20X if one counts prison rapes also.

******************End aside

Then there are sky maps. I've always been interested in astronomy, but when all the archaeo-astronomical dating stuff came up, that interest multiplied many-fold.

Not many people realize this, but the celestial map also has latitude and longitude, except that they're called "declination" and "right ascension" respectively. The earth is actually an ellipsoid, and an imperfect one at that, with mountains and depressions and such. The sky, however, can truly be represented as a perfect sphere.

Sky maps are mostly always in the stereographic projection, since one just needs to represent pin-points, and this projection preserves angles. Preserving angles is different from preserving directions - the Mercator does the latter.

However, one could just as well do a Mercator sky map. Then constellations close to the North Celestial Pole (NCP) or South Celestial Pole (SCP) would get blown up tremendously, while constellations close to the celestial equator would not. The NCP and SCP themselves would be impossible to represent on finite Mercator maps, they would both be at infinity (in opposite directions). But the current pole star (Polaris) could theoretically be represented on a finite Mercator sky map, since Polaris is slightly shifted from the true NCP.

Also - in my previous post - when I meant "set the tiller and forget about it" - it doesn't quite work that way. A sailor still needs to stand at the tiller all the time (they take turns of course). What the sailor can do, however, to steer the ship, is to align the tiller with the required direction on the magnetic compass - I believe tillers were built around these compasses. So somebody could refer to a Mercator map, and then come and tell the sailor at the tiller - "set course for 37 deg. East of North" and the sailor would stand there, yanking the tiller against waves, ocean currents and wind, to keep it at that direction, as if his life depended on it (which it probably did, keel-hauling ain't pleasant).
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by sudarshan »

Cyrano wrote: The geography teacher at my son's school told me he makes a point to always emphasize that the most used Mercator world maps distort relative sizes and not to use it for drawing conclusions about relative sizes/strengths of various countries.
It is easy to rectify the historical injustice of the Mercator map by doing a new injustice.

Most maps treat the geographic north pole (axis of rotation of the earth) as the cartographic north pole (north on the map). Doesn't have to be that way.

Theoretically, one could pick a location anywhere on earth - let's say, Ujjain, India (Ujjain used to define the prime meridian in Indian astronomy, the British later gave that role to Greenwich, but in between, there were other meridians which were in vogue, such as the Paris meridian). So let's say we pick Ujjain as the cartographic north pole, the antipode of Ujjain would automatically become the cartographic south pole. We need a third location to serve as the prime meridian - say Kanyakumari. Together with a "right-hand" convention for setting the "East" direction, this fully defines a new set of "latitudes" and "longitudes" with Ujjain at 90 deg. North.

Now do a Mercator map with this set of latitudes and longitudes. India (and India's antipodal areas) would look enormous on this map (like Antarctica on the current Mercator map), compared to the rest of the world, and Ujjain and its antipode would both be "off the map" (impossible to represent).

This would flatter Indian egos (and Chilean egos - Chile is almost antipodal to India), but would be useless for simple "auto-pilot" navigation (like I described in my earlier post), until somebody invented a device which pointed to Ujjain (or its antipode) from anywhere on earth. The magnetic compass isn't going to reorient itself to point to Ujjain, it's going to continue pointing to the magnetic north (slightly different from geographic north).
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by sudarshan »

The above might sound like rambling, but I have something definite in mind.

I would like Indians to start questioning some of these assumptions which we take for granted. "Think outside the box" is a cliched expression, but it works.

Why should the prime meridian continue being at Greenwich? The UK moved it there at the height of its power. There was a tussle with other meridians for a while, with the French trying to impose a Paris meridian (they failed, obviously). The UK is fading now. The Ujjain meridian was standard in Indian astronomy. Why not go back to it?

When somebody shows you a Mercator map, it is okay to think "OMG, see how underrepresented India is, we need a better projection than this." But take a moment to do the following:

a. Understand where the motivation for the Mercator projection really came from

b. Then think - why do we need some other projection? Why not do a Mercator map, with an Indic bias? Obviously, there are reasons not to do this, from the point of view of the original motivation driving Mercator - convenient navigation. But that navigational basis for the projection is pretty weak these days, we have computers and gyroscopes after all. The power-projection motivation behind an Indic Mercator projection might sound silly (and is obviously silly, because India is nowhere close to the geographical north pole), but an Indian who sees such a map would go "Wow! Is it even possible to think like this? I never knew." No matter how silly it is in this particular instance, it does free the Indian mind. There is an instance of European visitors to China deliberately presenting the Chinese with a map, which flattered China (it might have been a Mercator map even, I'll have to look it up again).

c. Think of ways to use those map-making techniques to show things which need to be highlighted - India is not the rape capital of the world. The USA is, in more ways than one.

Basically, think in self-serving terms about how one can exploit existing knowledge in new ways. "Why do it this way? Why not this other way?" It takes a vakrabuddhi to do it, but cultivate that vakrabuddhi and learn to control it for a good purpose, in a way that doesn't willfully hurt you or others.

I also want to present this video, where Nilesh Oak takes apart the notion of Indian astronomy being "copied from the Greeks."

Cyrano
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by Cyrano »

Deepavali wishes to all !

May the sparkles of knowledge and resounding crackers of dharma prevail over darkness of ignorance and surreptious creep of evil , may new endeavours bring prosperity and peace to you and your friends & families.
Jai Ho !
Cyrano
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by Cyrano »

Wokes and courts be damned, people in Hyd are bursting crackers with full enthusiasm. No Chinese crackers in the few shops I visited.
sanjaykumar
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by sanjaykumar »

That is a fantastic map of true sizes.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by sudarshan »

drnayar wrote: 04 Sep 2023 02:40 There is truth in all this information but how and what extent .. its time Bharat and bharatiyas understand and seize. their heritage.. it only right. The hordes of ancient literature and transcripts the brits and germans got out of india ..does anyone even have any idea of what was lost ?!
We now have a figure of $45T on the amount of wealth stolen from India (don't know who arrived at this figure, and how, personally, I think the Brits took 100 to 200 years' worth of their current GDP, i.e. - $300T to $600T).

What most people don't realize, is the extent of loss of intellectual property (IP).

Off the top of my head, I can think of the following:

* The number system itself - decimal numbering with a floating place holder. Used to go by the name of "Arabic numerals." Then some started saying "Hindu-Arabic numerals." But these are "Hindu numerals."

* Bijaganita, now attributed to the Arabs as "algebra."

* The nautical mile - 1 arc minute resolution along the polar circumference of any spherical object. On earth, this happens to be around 1.8 km. But the nautical mile is defined for any spherical object, as the best extent to which one can resolve one's position on the surface of a spherical object (eg. - a planet), using only naked eye astronomical observations. It follows directly from the fact that the angular resolving power of an average human eye is 1 arc minute, or 1 part in 21,600 of the circumference. Hence why the nautical mile is defined as 1 part in 21,600 of the polar circumference (of the earth).

* Trigonometric series representations, especially for the arc tangent. The special case of the arc tangent of 1, being pi/4, was used to accurately estimate the value of pi to up to 8 decimal places (some say 18). This is now being recognized, and is pretty well documented. The correction factors defined by Madhva of Sangamagrama are relevant in explaining the Powell's paradox, and also greatly extend the precision of the calculated value, after evaluating N terms in the series.

* As a corollary - Kalanam (calculus).

* The concept of the reference longitude (I don't have a solid reference for this). It seems India had established it at Ujjain. The French tried to shift the reference to Paris, but the British prevailed in having it shifted to the current Greenwich meridian.

* Planetary ephemerides calculations. The antikythera mechanism is rather well known, being a Greek device, presumably for predicting planetary ephemerides. As per Nilesh Oak, the Indian planetary models are far more accurate. The Surya Siddhanta (I haven't personally verified this, so other more knowledgeable people can comment on this) tabulates the parameters of a "dual pulsating epicycloid" model for planetary ephemerides. The "pulsating" factor accounts for the fact that planetary orbits are elliptical, rather than circular. There is a separate solar ephemerides model, and a separate lunar ephemerides model (lunar is the most difficult).

* The "Gregorian" calendar - consists of trigonometric corrections taken from the west coast of India by Jesuit missionaries.

* The Vedic "alphanumeric code." This is pretty well documented, showing up in Vedic mathematics, but also in the works of later mathematicians like Madhva, Jyeshtadeva, etc.

* Panini's Ashtadhyayi for Sanskrit grammar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%81%E1%B9%87ini wrote: Modern linguistics
Pāṇini's work became known in 19th-century Europe, where it influenced modern linguistics initially through Franz Bopp, who mainly looked at Pāṇini. Subsequently, a wider body of work influenced Sanskrit scholars such as Ferdinand de Saussure, Leonard Bloomfield, and Roman Jakobson. Frits Staal (1930–2012) discussed the impact of Indian ideas on language in Europe. After outlining the various aspects of the contact, Staal notes that the idea of formal rules in language – proposed by Ferdinand de Saussure in 1894 and developed by Noam Chomsky in 1957 – has origins in the European exposure to the formal rules of Pāṇinian grammar.[73] In particular, de Saussure, who lectured on Sanskrit for three decades, may have been influenced by Pāṇini and Bhartrihari; his idea of the unity of signifier-signified in the sign somewhat resembles the notion of Sphoṭa. More importantly, the very idea that formal rules can be applied to areas outside of logic or mathematics may itself have been catalysed by Europe's contact with the work of Sanskrit grammarians.[73]
drnayar
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by drnayar »

sudarshan wrote: 04 Sep 2023 04:08
drnayar wrote: 04 Sep 2023 02:40 There is truth in all this information but how and what extent .. its time Bharat and bharatiyas understand and seize. their heritage.. it only right. The hordes of ancient literature and transcripts the brits and germans got out of india ..does anyone even have any idea of what was lost ?!
We now have a figure of $45T on the amount of wealth stolen from India (don't know who arrived at this figure, and how, personally, I think the Brits took 100 to 200 years' worth of their current GDP, i.e. - $300T to $600T).

What most people don't realize, is the extent of loss of intellectual property (IP).

[/quote]

Thank you. This topic deserves a thread if it's own for future generations of Indians
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by bala »

sudarshan wrote:We now have a figure of $45T on the amount of wealth stolen from India (don't know who arrived at this figure, and how, personally, I think the Brits took 100 to 200 years' worth of their current GDP, i.e. - $300T to $600T).
The 45T figure was published by Indian origin person in Britain and has now become a staple talking point everywhere, even EAM Jaishankar has quoted the figure. You are right that the estimate could be 300-600 T, I have been routinely quoting 200T. Tis anyone's guess. However, just consider the following:

1. Britshits stole accumulated wealth of India (which was collected over centuries because of global trade). Gold and ornaments were carted away and formed the basis of capital for banks of England and Germany. Gold was standard backing reserve for currency circulation until Bretton-Woods printing paper money.

2. Britshits destroyed all existing factories of India which churned out all kinds of goods for the world. The Roman senate has noted in writing that their wealth is diminishing because the women of Rome spent them on silk sarees from India. All these industries modified for the industrial revolution moved to Britain.

3. Britshits created famines in India, and many of your and my forefathers/mothers perished. Around 200 million died over their rule. Brit Famines go back to the 1800's, since the Brits destroyed existing crops and created poppy cultivation for the worldwide drug trade.
The antikythera mechanism is rather well known, being a Greek device
Another canard that antikythera is Greek. Antikythera was created in Kerala for navigation. Greeks studied at Kerala and other locations in India. Greeks & Romans got their civilization input from India. Wiki is peddling false narratives since the superiority of western culture will fall flat.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by bala »

Bhartrihari (the elder son of King Gandharva-Sena, of the kingdom of Ujjain and the brother of Emperor Vikramaditya of Vikram and Betal fame) wrote about sphota 9000 years ago, and the intellegentsia of this planet has not yet understood it. Sphota is Praakruta dhvani (primordial sound, the pranavam) which reversibly transforms itself to make humans conscious, cognitive and communicative through language. Thus sphota is physically infrasonic sound form and is responsible for all human mental functions both materially (upadana karana) and instrumentally (nimitta karana). Bhartrhari believed that it was not mere memory or the past association with the object (jnapaka), but a unifying higher cognition, superior to memory, termed "pratibha" that revealed in a "flash" or sphota the single indivisible sequence less meaning of a word or a sentence.

Sphota is the idea which flashes on the mind when a sound is uttered. A man is capable of using the language because according to sphota theory the prathibha lies in consciousness. The metaphysical sphota-vada is a monistic philosophy based in Sanskrit grammar. Sphota is the inner aspect of the expressive word meaning which resides in all beings. When a person wants to communicate an idea, he begins with sphota and then he utters it and produces different sounds by the movement of his articularly organs.

// pray where in the literature of the world would you find such a concept as Spota enunciated by any intellectual of the world!
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by bala »

Nyaya-Vaiseshika Sutra of Kanada (कणाद) Muni (Maharishi Kashyapa is also known as Kanada Muni) has concepts of matter, action, attribute, time and space which are described in 373 Sutras and is composed of 12 chapters.

Kashyapa was the patron Maharishi of Kashmir and the Caspian sea area “Kashyapa Mir” was “lake of the sage Kashyapa”.

The entire Universe is composed of the 5 Mahabhuttas and the 4 non physicals: that is Fluid, Atomic elements, fields/force, energy, ether and space, time, mind and atma. Except ether, all of the physical elements are made of discreet and distinct paramanus or atoms. Space-time is a frame in which the physical universe exists. There are seven categories of experience, which are substance, quality, activity, generality, particularity, inherence, and nonexistence. Energy and mass are equivalent.

The Vaiśeṣika categories are for space-time-matter and for attributes related to perception by sentient agents. Kaṇāda starts with six categories (padārthas) that are nameable and knowable, proposing they are sufficient to describe everything in the universe from concrete matter to the abstract atom. The six categories are: dravya (substance), guṇa (quality), karma (motion), sāmānya (universal), viśeṣa (particularity), and samavāya (inherence).

There are nine classes of substances, some of which are non-atomic, some atomic, and others all-pervasive. The non-atomic ground is provided by the three substances of ether (ākāśa), space (dik), and time (kāla), which are unitary and indestructible; a further four, earth (pṛthvī), water (āpas), fire (tejas), and air (vāyu) are atomic composed of indivisible, and indestructible atoms (aṇu); self or consciousness (ātman), which is the eighth, is omnipresent and eternal; and, lastly, the ninth, is the mind (manas), which has atomic dimensions. It is significant that consciousness is listed before mind, suggesting that it is the medium through which mind’s apprehensions are received.

The atom Anu, Kanada wrote that there are 108 such elements. Sage Kashyapa (Acharya Kanada) said, that it is NOT the atom which holds the power, but the space in between the parts of the atom, called Akasha.

Kanada provides certain propositions:
कर्मं कर्मसाध्यं न विद्यते॥१।१।११॥ From motion, [new] motion is not known.
कारणाभावात्कार्याभावः ॥१।२।१॥ In the absence of cause there is an absence of effect [motion].
सामान्यं विशेष इति बुद्ध्यपेक्षम् ॥१।२।३॥ Existence is uncaused and eternal (nitya).

Kaṇāda’s Laws of Motion:
वेगः निमित्तविशेषात कर्मणो जायते | Every object will remain at rest or in uniform motion in a straight line unless compelled to change its state by the action of an external force.
वेगः निमित्तापेक्षात कर्मणो जायते नियतदिक क्रियाप्रबन्धहेतु | In an inertial reference frame, the vector sum of the forces F on an object is equal to the mass m of that object multiplied by the acceleration a of the object: F = ma
वेगः संयोगविशेषविरोधी | That if two objects A and B collide in an isolated system, the total momentum of the two objects before the collision is equal to the total momentum of the two objects after the collision
वेगः संयोगविशेषविरोधी |Whether leaf falls on thorn or thorn falls on leaf effect is same

संयोगाभावे गुरुत्वात् पतनम् ॥५।१।७॥ In the absence of conjunction, gravity [causes objects to] fall.
नोदनविशेषाभावान्नोर्ध्वं न तिर्य्यग्गमनम् ॥५।१।८॥ In the absence of a force, there is no upward motion, sideward motion or motion in general.
नोदनादाद्यमिषोः कर्म तत्कर्मकारिताच्च संस्कारादुत्तरं तथोत्तरमुत्तरञच् ॥५।१।१७॥
The initial pressure [on the bow] leads to the arrow’s motion; from that motion is momentum, from which is the motion that follows and the next and so on similarly.
कार्य्यविरोधि कर्म ॥१।१।१४॥ Action (kārya) is opposed by reaction (karman).
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by sudarshan »

bala wrote: 04 Sep 2023 10:57 ...
Those laws of motion from sage Kanada seem very interesting. Is there a dating available for his works?

My personal theory is that the reason why the western world doggedly refuses to acknowledge any of India's achievements (for instance - the insistence on using the term "Arabic" numerals, despite the fact that even the Arabs write these numerals from left to right) is, that it would be a very slippery slope. Once one achievement is acknowledged, it would inevitably lead to more, until their entire narrative collapses.

However, for now, it would be a good idea for Indians to stick with claims which are either entirely verifiable through western (or Chinese or Arabian) sources, or which have solid Indian sources. By "solid" Indian sources, I mean those, which have surviving Indian texts (often in Sanskrit, but need not be), which can be easily translated. The Surya Siddhanta is one. The material from sage Kanada which you quoted, could be another. Likewise, works from Madhva or Jyeshtadeva.

As for what the British took from India - you are right that it is not just physical appropriation of wealth, it is also opportunity cost. Such as destroying the local manufacturing capability (especially textiles) and rainwater harvesting techniques, and creating famines. On top of that - encouraging opium addiction. Jabez Sunderland talks of the ubiquitous opium dens in British India, and how Indian mothers used to dope their infants with opium for the first two years, because they weren't producing enough milk (owing to starvation) to feed the infants. On top of all this, there is the "character assassination" - accusations of casteism, misogyny, illiteracy, etc. - to destroy the future prospects of India. Then there is partition....

The true cost to India simply can't be calculated.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by bala »

sudarshan wrote:good idea for Indians to stick with claims which are either entirely verifiable through western (or Chinese or Arabian) sources, or which have solid Indian sources
The issue with western source / science is that they do not acknowledge consciousness. Only consciousness can explain consciousness. India believes in consciousness. When Heisenberg introduced the "observer" into the experiment he discovered uncertainty in measuring the position. The field of quantum entanglement is the foundation of quantum computing. Seemingly an event occuring at an electron level has implication for another electron far separated, i.e. they are entangled. That is the reason why Nuclear physicists worldwide turn to the Vedas for answers. Sage Kaanada mentions observer "atma".

Western sources also made some huge assumptions like Greeks were the founders of logic/modern day science/math etc. But Greeks learned from India, so did the Romans. Prior to Christianity these cultures practised ancient Indian Vedic systems. Greeks never accepted zero or infinity from India. Romans stuck to their method of counting.

Indians need to invest some time studying their ancient texts (which are goldmines in information and ideas) and articulate them using Angrez/other languages to explain in detail the overarching idea. In the field of mind sciences and pure logic Ancient India advanced to a high degree that no one in current thinking have ever done. Many of them are repackaged by Westerners into their own idea, often injecting some falsehoods along the way and claiming great advances. They refuse to take consciousness into their thinking. Without consciousness the mind is nothing. Sage Kaanada mentions conciousness before mind.

Another area is pure theft of intellectual knowledge and claiming things for themselves. This has happened many times in the past and still occurs today. Newton is good example wherein he usurped Sage Kaanada Vaisesika Sutra laws and Kerala school of calculus. Newtonian physics never defined a proper clock; therefore it was impossible for the experiment to have measured the speed of light!

In recent times Einstein (a clerk in patent office) used Poincare's work on relativity and David Hilbert on general relativity. It was Poincaré who coined the phrases “principle of relativity”, and “Lorentz transform”. In his celebrated 1904 paper he spoke of an entirely new mechanics, which would be, above all, characterized by this fact, that no velocity could surpass that of light, any more than any temperature can fall below absolute zero. That is the theory of relativity in a nutshell. Austrian physicist Friedrich Hasenöhrl had published a paper on the topic in 1904 in the Annalen der Physik, for E=MC^2 in which Einstein would publish his plagiarized version in Sept 1905. For his brilliant work in this area, Hasenöhrl had received in 1904 a prize from the prestigious Vienna Academy of Sciences. The math equation and relationship of mass /energy was a simple deduction from the already well-known equations of Scottish physicist James Clerk Maxwell. Scientists long understood that the mathematical relationship is expressed by the equation E=MC^2. Maxwell died in 1879 AD.

ECG Sudarshan contributed to two Nobel prize winning ideas but both of them usurped by others.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by bala »

Time and Speed in Ancient Vedic India is quite amazing and precise.

Bhagawatam 9.3.30-32 narrates a vimana with a single spacemen who went to the highest planetary system due to an urgent situation and stayed there for only 20 minutes. When he returned he could not find any of his family and relatives, the sons and grandsons, there was no record of the family tree. This is an example of Maya of time. This is an excellent description of dilation of time.

There is exact definition of speed of light: 2,202 yojanas in half a nimesa.

Unit of Time: Nimesa
The Moksha dharma parva of Shanti Parva in Mahabharata describes Nimisha as follows:
15 Nimisha = 1 Kastha, 30 Kashta = 1 Kala, 30.3 Kala = 1 Muhurta, 30 Muhurtas = 1 Diva-Ratri (Day-Night). We know Day-Night is 24 hours. So we get 24 hours = 30 x 30.3 x 30 x 15 nimishain in other words 409050 nimisha. We know 1 hour = 60 x 60 = 3600 seconds. So 24 hours = 24 x 3600 seconds = 409050 nimisha. 409050 nimesa = 86,400 seconds1 nimesa = 0.2112 seconds (this is a recursive decimal, a wink of an eye = 0.2112 seconds!) 1/2 nimesa = 0.1056 seconds.

Yojana is defined in Chapter 6 of Book 1 of the ancient vedic text “Vishnu Purana” as follows: 10 Paramáńus = 1 Parasúkshma 10 Parasúkshmas = 1 Trasareńu 10 Trasareńus = 1 Mahírajas (particle of dust) 10 Mahírajasas = 1 Bálágra (hair’s point) 10 Bálágras = 1 Likhyá10 Likhyás= 1 Yúka 10 Yúkas = 1 Yavodara (heart of barley) 10 Yavodaras = 1 Yava (barley grain of middle size) 10 Yava = 1 Angula (finger, or inch) 6 fingers = 1 Pada (the breadth of it) 2 Padas = 1 Vitasti (span) 2 Vitasti = 1 Hasta (cubit) 4 Hastas = a Dhanu, a Danda, or pauruSa (a man’s height), or 2 Nárikás = 6 feet 2000 Dhanus = 1 Gavyúti (distance to which a cow’s call or lowing can be heard) = 12000 feet 4 Gavyútis = 1 Yojana = 9.09 miles

We can calculate what is the value of the speed of light in modern units based on the value given as 2202 yojanas in 1/2 nimesa = 2202 x 9.09 miles per 0.1056 seconds = 20016.18 miles per 0.1056 seconds = 189547 miles per second. The most accurate figure for the speed of light as of today is 186, 282 miles per second.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by bala »

On Indian Music:

The intial swaras originate from the Rig Veda. Narada siksha says that the notes originate from the Rig Veda accents of udata, anudata and svarita. According to Taittereya Upanishad (1. 2), the elements of chanting includes six factors: Varna (syllable); Svara (accent); Maatra (duration); Balam (stress); Sama (even tone); and Santana (continuity). Varna is the correct pronunciation of every isolated syllable, combination of consonants and vowels and compound letters. Svara is how a syllable has to be pronounced in one of the three accents (udatta, anudatta and svarita). In the beginning, Sama-gana employed only three notes called Udatta, Anudatta and Svarita. The lyre (Vana-Veena) accompanying the singing had only three strings, one for each note.

The three notes were differentiated depending on whether it was produced from above or below the palate (taalu). Udatta refers to sound produced from above the palate; and is acutely accented (uchchaih). Anudatta was gravely accented (nichaih); produced from below the palate. Svarita is a combination of udatta and anudatta, with udatta in the first-half. It is called a circumflexed accent. The tone is the Udātta [raised] the other two being the Svarita [drone] and the Anudātta [low].

From udata the notes of nishada (निषाद) and gandara (गान्धार) were created; from anudata the notes of rishaba (ऋषभ) and dhaivata (धैवत) were created; from svarita the notes of shadja (षड्ज), madhyama (मध्यम) and panchama (पञ्चम) were created. Initially in Sama Veda era the seven notes were named as pratima, dvitiya, tritaya, chaturta, mandra, atisvara and krushta (to shout). The notes are in descending order. Sama veda chants normally used 5 notes, with rare ones using either 6 or 7 notes. Singing of Sama Veda chants had assigned singer roles and these were prastotha (or prastothri), udgata (chief), pratihartha (or pratiharthri) and subramanya. Various shakhas (e.g. jaimini namboodri shakha) sang the Sama Veda chants and introduced their own signature styles, handed from guru to sishya parampara. Hand and finger movements accompanied the singing. The gathra veena was used. Between lines a stobha was inserted very similar to alap in current singing of classical music.

The 7 swara stanas or note positions: 1. shadjam, 2. rishabham, 3. gandharam, 4. madhyamam, 5. panchamam, 6. daivatam, 7. nishadam

Natya Shastra, 28.21
तत्र स्वरा षड्जश्च ऋषभश्चैव गान्धारो मध्यमस्तथा ।पञ्चमो धैवतश्चैव सप्तमोऽथ निषादवान् ॥ २१
The seven swara notes of the musical scale in Indian classical music are shadja (षड्ज), rishabha (ऋषभ), gandhara (गान्धार), madhyama (मध्यम), panchama (पञ्चम), dhaivata (धैवत) and nishada (निषाद). These seven swaras are shortened to Sa, Ri (Carnatic) or Re (Hindustani), Ga, Ma, Pa, Dha, and Ni. Collectively these notes are known as the sargam (the word is an acronym of the consonants of the first four swaras).

Sa-----Sadja-------------------------------------------The cry of the peacock
Ri-----Rishaba----------------------------------------The blowing of the bull
Ga----Gandhara--------------------------------------The bleating of the goat
Ma----Madhyama (literally - "middle note")-------The cry of the kraunja bird (crane/stork)
Pa-----Panchama (literally - "fifth note")----------The cry of the kokila bird (cuckoo)
Da-----Dhaivata--------------------------------------The neighing of the horse
Ni-----Nishada----------------------------------------The trumpeting of the elephant

Svara or swara is a Sanskrit word that connotes a note in the successive steps of the octave. More comprehensively, it is the ancient Indian concept about the complete dimension of musical pitch. The swara differs from the shruti concept in Indian music. A shruti is the smallest gradation of pitch that a human ear can detect and a singer or instrument can produce.

The ancient Sanskrit text Natya Shastra identifies and discusses twenty two shruti and seven swara.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by drnayar »

To the notion as to whether westerners cannot accept the advanced concepts in the vedas., one is reminded of the saying why try to describe grammar to a pig that dont even understand a language., which is exactly what vedas are ., the language of the gods. One's consciousness need to reach a certain level before certain concepts can even be comprehended let alone understood. In the bygone ages student had to go through a certain period of sadhana and that too only the select few were taught the vedas.

By any measure modern human beings have not evolved in the psychic sense , and in a lot of ways modern tech prevents it. We are lost in the materialistic world advances or maya itself !!

But that time will come. We need to plod on with our mission or missions trying to understand or at least have a semblance of what was lost. The future generations would thank us !

@bala would be nice to correspond. you can reach me at dr.nayar at gmail.com !
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by sudarshan »

Jarita wrote: 16 Oct 2023 03:13
Pratyush wrote: 12 Oct 2023 09:13 Let me make it clear, I am a Bihari Brahmin.

The people who are Anti Modi, were all Brahmins and Bhumihars.

All are well educated and well travelled. In different walks of life. Such as corporate sector, education, self employed, etc.


They are not able to understand that someone who is not fit to be an employee of their company. By definition is not fit to be the PM of the country.
I just don't understand this twisted mental disease. I see it also amongst Bengali Brahmins who know what happened in 197 but are now manufacturing delusions for Durga Puja becoming a non Hindu festival (lol). There was a small group of Kashmiri Brahmins who was also like this. Is it a nutritional deficiency because of which they cannot look at the bigger picture.
There are some relatives of mine who speak the same.
Recently I was talking to a Namboodari lady over a cup of tea and she was all angry about the boy who got slapped case. I pointed it out that this was common in Indian schools and Muslims were pretty fine in India. She literally stomped off leaving midway till I called her back to split the bill.

It's like a deep rooted "Stockholm" syndrome gene.
Perhaps Bharat being the mystical land she is will have her way and these groups will die out in most part.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by sudarshan »

sudarshan wrote: 16 Oct 2023 03:32
Jarita wrote: 16 Oct 2023 03:13 I just don't understand this twisted mental disease.

...

Is it a nutritional deficiency because of which they cannot look at the bigger picture.

...

It's like a deep rooted "Stockholm" syndrome gene.
I believe "Stockholm syndrome" and virtue signaling is a basic human trait. If you think about it, paying obeisance to a jealous G*d, or to implacable r*ligi*us elders, or submitting to the burq*h are all "Stockholm syndrome" and virtue signaling. IOW, you got to oppress people in order to win their respect and compliance. The famous story of Stalin and the hen comes to mind (it's most probably not a true story, but the message is very instructive).

Other r*ligi*ns manage to keep the SS and VS directed *inwards* and all the ire directed *outwards.* That is their strength.

We are the other way. We direct the SS and the VS *outwards* and the ire *inwards.* How do we reverse that? More importantly, do we need to reverse that?
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by sudarshan »

m_saini wrote: 16 Oct 2023 06:12
sudarshan wrote: 16 Oct 2023 03:32 IOW, you got to oppress people in order to win their respect and compliance.
Imo, oppression alone isn't enough. You also have to give people an enemy to oppress in return, to win their full compliance. The stronger the oppression, the more you have to allow people to oppress others. Basically you control both, the cause(oppression) and the effect(oppressing others).
A 50-50 combination of the two, wins you compliance from the masses.

In Hinduism, it's ass-backwards. There is "phantom" oppression (caste, brahminical patriarchy etc) and nobody is actually allowed to oppress others (the vasudhaiva kutumbakam, sarva dharma sambhav etc bs).
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by sudarshan »

^ I tend to agree. OTOH, you got to wonder if there's a reason we are this way. You don't survive two predators over a 1200 year interval on a faulty philosophy.

Maybe the idea is to let the Prithviraj types eliminate themselves from the gene pool on their own, I don't know. You got to remember - the Pandavas almost eliminated themselves totally from the gene pool with their rigid interpretation of dharma. Their next generation was certainly wiped out. The generation after was Parikshit, who almost got wiped out as well, but for the Lord's mercy.

One philosophy is great for offense. Maybe the other one is good for defense in some weird way.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by sanjaykumar »

It is not Stockholm syndrome.

It is ‘I am not like you ordinary poor dirty no-English Hindus’.

It is a type of mental defence.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by m_saini »

sudarshan wrote: 16 Oct 2023 06:45 ^ I tend to agree. OTOH, you got to wonder if there's a reason we are this way. You don't survive two predators over a 1200 year interval on a faulty philosophy.
Not faulty at all but imo Hinduism in it's purest form was never meant to face outside challenges. The 'bad guys' in Hinduism are Hindus themselves like Ravana or Kauravas. Even Naraka in Hinduism is only for souls engaging in deception, theft etc rather than the 'you disrespected Jesus or you disrespected Mohammad' baloney and you can't get out of it by saying 'hail Mary' 5 times.

Comparatively, 'religions' like Islam or Christianity have a very distinct 'us vs them' theme that's entirely missing from Hinduism. The fact that we've endured the 1200 years just highlights the sturdy structural foundations of the belief rather than the effectiveness of it in a 'us vs them' fight.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by Cyrano »

Successive centuries of colonisations have made generations of bharatiyas hate themselves and demean their own culture in many big and small ways. The mental decolonisation has started now, but it will take a couple of generations.

Until then, we need to be patient and educate out own who self flagellate and make them realise that other cultures already flagellate and burn at stake for far far less.

As we grow in confidence, prosperity, and stature, we will stop mimicking others and once again have others adopting our ways, vesh-bhusha and thinking.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by bala »

Successive centuries of colonisations have made generations of bharatiyas hate themselves and demean their own culture in many big and small ways.
India has had the misfortune of certain Bharatiyas who not only hate Bharat due to their Brown Sahib upbringing with years of Angrez education and colonialization by the Britshits, they have gone further by writing inaccurate / made up stuff. This is not surprising given the fact that the entire history of BritRule of India is one big cock and bull story concocted by the Brits to cover their 200 T loot express. Not one pipsqueak in the World about the 200 million deaths holocaust of Indians due to deliberate man-made famines and other calamities. The communist cabal with the Kangress has a chokehold on education policy and appointments, thereby making sure generations of Indians are fed with false narratives and patently wrong history. Somnath temple was attacked by Islamic invaders repeatedly and yet this history is suppressed. Many monuments in India including the Taj Mahal have inaccurate accounting of their history.

Britshit and Western scholars have made mincemeat of entire Indian history, making stuff out of their rearend willy nilly and passing this as scholarly stuff. The sad part is many of them pretend to be interested in India, its language (Sanskrit) but like the proverbial snake spite the very thing they studied during their entire lifetimes. You shake your head and wonder what kind of psycho paths do Universities of repute breed. This could make an entire thesis for some enterprising scholar to understand the demented thinking of administration of Universities.

Michael Witzel is an important scholar discussed in the book 'Ten Heads of Ravana' and Manogna Sastry analyzes his work in her cogent essay. Sastry discusses one of the major themes of Witzel’s academic work, consisting of his championing the Aryan Invasion/Migration into India theories, to the point of disregarding evidence and denigrating through ad hominem attacks, the works which challenge and have negated several of his central points. His proof and methodology have included “creating” evidence when none exists, through mistranslations and grammatical errors, to the point of distorting verses to suit his whims. When his claims have been discredited by others, Witzel has gone on to offer farcical explanations, even as the lack of academic ethics in his work stands tall. The essay highlights how such, instances demonstrate the poor scholarship that accompanies Witzel’s work in a theme as crucial as the Aryan issue, for it has direct implications on the temporal and spatial origins of the Vedas and Sanskrit heritage.

Witzel has been a vociferous critic of Indians wherever they are fighting for a fair and just representation of their history. He played a role, along with Marxist historians such as Romila Thapar, in trying to thwart the attempts made by Hindus in North America to correct the history textbooks of Grade VI taught in California Public Schools. Witzel’s writings, laden under the garb of trying to protect “historical accuracy”, lays bare much of what is fallacious about his scholarship. The essay considers several such instances of Witzel’s work to demonstrate why his work qualifies him as one of today’s Intellectual Ravanas.

Romila Thapar has been one of India’s foremost historians, having held control of premier national educational and research institutions to influence academic discourse and government policies over decades.

{ BTW, this expose by MajGen Bakshi of soul-selling indian academician Romila provides some more details https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyOZp3EnYG4}

Anurag Sharma, in his brilliant essay, "Ten Heads of Ravana", refutes Thapar’s historiographical assumptions by providing strong counterexamples from Indian history. In the first section, he critically examines her views on the Islamic period of Indian history; in the second, her theories related to Hindu Dharma and the sacred texts such as Ramayana, Mahabharata and the Puranas; and in the third, her views on India as a nation and Hindu nationalism. Using evidence from fields of numismatics, archaeology, epigraphy, art and traditional texts to debunk many of the claims, Sharma makes a compelling case as to why Thapar’s work is unreliable and cannot be assumed as the mainstream narrative if we wish to return to scientific, objective and fact-based representations of history.

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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by bala »

Sudarshan wrote:Nilesh Oak used the full set of MB astronomical observations, but instead of using traditional Indian panchang data, he used the Voyager software, which is based on the NASA JPL database for its ephemerides calculations. In addition, Nilesh Oak used another 100 or so seasonal observations from the MB, for a total of 220+ observations.
Sudarshan saar, I am going through old postings on this thread and I must commend you for your great posts on topics that I am into, including BG (I have a book's worth on this!).

BTW there is another observation by Nilesh Oak on just Mars the planet. There are 8 references in MB. Mars has a strange motion along the sun axis, it moves from south to north of sun axis and then strangely reverses direction (vakra motion) all the way back to around nakshatra "Chitra" (as if to torture it! - Ved Vyasa's description). This occurrence happens once in the last 10,000 years around 5561 BC. This is super clinching evidence.

More here ..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHiBhd7s-Dw
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by Cyrano »

To be able to understand and interpret the contents of MB, it is essential to have an excellent grasp of Sanskrit language and grammar. Which I dont, and I doubt if Nilesh Oak has either.

I listened to a couple of his podcasts in the past and found his logic not very convincing and he seemed to force fit his interpretations into some desired outcome.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by bala »

All of us in India whether Sanskrit scholars or not cannot accurately understand/interpret ancient texts like MB as it was written ages ago. What is important is to understand concepts conveyed by the text. Today, India has abandoned its legacy of Sanskrit, which IMO should be taught in all schools of India and made compulsory.

Bhartṛhari, a grammarian-philosopher, says "All knowledge is intertwined with the word (Vakyapadiya 1:23)". Bhartrhari regarded the sentence as a single ‘integral symbol’ (eko anavayah sabdah); an indivisible unit of communication; an integral sentence the meaning of which is grasped by an instantaneous flash of understanding or perception through intuition (Prathibha).

This prathibha is what is important and having different interpretations is par for the course. Nilesh Oak has taken all references to astronomical data in MB and using modern NASA/JPL (I wish ISRO publishes one) software tracked the year in which it occurs. Nilesh has repeatedly said that if any of his reading of MB text is wrong or mistaken he is open for a debate and open to correct his version. Nilesh has used other evidences like river data, ocean levels, etc to prove his point.

The Indian system of tracking events in the sky is one amazing system since Nakshatras are used, besides graha of planets, sun, moon, etc. The 27 Nakshatras are unique only to Indian civilization, no other civilization mentions such a concept. BTW the Stonehenge in England is the 27 nakshatra system depicted in a ring of 27 vertical stones. The referential integrity of Nakshatras in an all moving universe system is enough for time keeping on earth.

Bharat govt should sponsor a deep study of Nakshatras since there is enough material within India to pursue such studies. Note that each of the Indian nakstra, is not a single star but actually a cluster of stars at the center of the Universe (Vishnu Nabhi). A depiction of the cluster for each and every star is engraved on a ceiling wall in a temple in South Indian, TN.

Study of stars at center of the Universe (Vishnu Nabhi) is very important. Around 65 million years ago, the earth was rained by massive meteorites from space and since the earth rotates this rain of meteorite stones was not in one single spot. The black Shiva Lingam meteorite stone delivered Tvasta (seed) to planet earth, in the form of the double helix coiled serpents which cannot be destroyed, as mentioned in Rig Veda and gave life in living creatures. Aditi cast away her 8th son Marthanda as he was mis-shapen - Rig Veda Mandala10 - Sukta-72 (10-72). Aditi is the mother of all mothers and Daksha is father of fathers. The Vedas talk about an energy-genetic connection between the Galactic center (Bindu in Sri Yantra) and DNA molecule.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by sudarshan »

bala wrote: 26 Oct 2023 10:54 Sudarshan saar, I am going through old postings on this thread and I must commend you for your great posts on topics that I am into, including BG (I have a book's worth on this!).
Thanks! Appreciate the note. I guess you are referring to the posts on the axioms of SD?
BTW there is another observation by Nilesh Oak on just Mars the planet. There are 8 references in MB. Mars has a strange motion along the sun axis, it moves from south to north of sun axis and then strangely reverses direction (vakra motion) all the way back to around nakshatra "Chitra" (as if to torture it! - Ved Vyasa's description). This occurrence happens once in the last 10,000 years around 5561 BC. This is super clinching evidence.

More here ..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHiBhd7s-Dw
Yes, I remember Nilesh Oak saying that the Mars evidence alone was enough to identify the time of the MB. The MB refers to Mars as the "parusha graha" (cruel planet) and there are multiple references of Mars attacking nakshatras. IIRC, one reference was to Mars afflicting Rohini. Since Rohini is ruled by Prajapati, the inference was that the entirety of sentient creation would be afflicted by Mars.

We had a lot of discussion on BRF on the dating of the MB (Nilesh Oak used to be a frequent poster in the past, not so much now).
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by bala »

sudarshan wrote: 26 Oct 2023 21:05 I guess you are referring to the posts on the axioms of SD?
Yes indeed, brilliant stuff.

On another note: I am sure you are aware of Godel's Theorem (i learnt about it in Theoretical Comp Science class) wherein it states that given a set of axioms (e.g. Peano Axioms for number theory) there are statements within that cannot be proven to be true or false (incompleteness theorem).
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by sudarshan »

Cyrano wrote: 26 Oct 2023 13:17 To be able to understand and interpret the contents of MB, it is essential to have an excellent grasp of Sanskrit language and grammar. Which I dont, and I doubt if Nilesh Oak has either.

I listened to a couple of his podcasts in the past and found his logic not very convincing and he seemed to force fit his interpretations into some desired outcome.
His podcasts don't do justice to his theory(ies). His MB dating book was really good. There were some iffy items, such as his interpretations of "Tiryak" Mercury, etc. and a couple of grahas (planets?) mentioned in the MB, which he couldn't identify. Also some eclipse predictions (which is understandable, since the moon position is pretty difficult to predict that far back).

The best evidence (IMHO) for the MB dating, which came from his book, was the Arundhati-Vashishta phenomenon. He has a lot of posts right here on BRF on that as well. We went over it, and I was able to validate his predictions (from the Voyager software) using another software, Stellarium.

He also has a book on the Ramayana dating, that one was iffier (IMHO).
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by sudarshan »

bala wrote: 26 Oct 2023 21:27 On another note: I am sure you are aware of Godel's Theorem (i learnt about it in Theoretical Comp Science class) wherein it states that given a set of axioms (e.g. Peano Axioms for number theory) there are statements within that cannot be proven to be true or false (incompleteness theorem).
Yes, I'm aware of Godel's theorem. All of science/ logic is limited by its own axioms. I think of SD as the quest for a single truth, which is beyond all axioms, and therefore beyond logic itself. One can arrive at this truth by Gnana Yoga (path of logic), but even with this path, there will always be a final leap from the axiomatic to the super-axiomatic.

The idea behind the axiomatic formulation of SD was, that we have a relatively large pool of STEM-educated population, who are familiar with that axiomatic approach (and who - moreover - regard that approach as some kind of "gold standard" of science). So it would be of interest to give that population some means of using their STEM education as a "head-start" to understanding SD. Basically - is it possible to convert 10 to 12 years of STEM sadhana (i.e. - deductive logic) into an equivalent amount of SD sadhana (there might be a sub-unity conversion factor, of course)? Maybe 10 years' worth of STEM sadhana would grant the seeker a year's worth (or maybe 2 years' worth) of SD sadhana.

But the first step in that is to try and formulate SD in the form of a limited number of axioms, which is what I attempted to do.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by bala »

The Vedic concept of mind is different than the western notion of mind. One of the mind’s most dear creations is the idea of the person and, closest to home, of a very special person which each one of us calls “I”: a separate, enduring ego or self. As soon as "I" is created in the mind, the seamless universe is cut in two. There is “I” and there is all the rest.

In Sankhya philosophy there is Brahman (Bra means to expand and brahman is the truly unknown, unseen entity) and Prakriti (the seen universe). At the very beginning of creation gave rise to the law of duality, light and darkness. By the storm of vibration, Brahman’s thoughts of multiplicity brought forth the waves of manifestation: His Lila, or divine play. Objects in the phenomenal world are called relative because they exist only in relation to each other. Man’s ordinary consciousness is relativity consciousness i.e., he apprehends one thing only by interpreting it relative to something else. Relative consciousness was given to him in order to appreciate the nature of the many. Ordinary waking consciousness, subconsciousness, super-subconsciousness - all forms of ego consciousness - share this characteristic: they are relative.

What is matter? Matter is nothing but a particular rate of vibration of Brahman’s cosmic energy. No form in the universe is really solid. That which appears so is merely a compact or gross vibration of His energy. The scientifically indisputable truth is that matter is in reality a concentrate of energy. Man thinks of his mortal form as solid flesh and bone. That is a concrete delusion. The body is an amalgam of countless infinitesimal subatomic particles; these particles are made up of finer-than-atomic life enabling energy and ultimately of thoughts (which is another energy), sparks of consciousness, whose source is Cosmic Consciousness.

We have always been under the impression that there is an intrinsic difference between ourselves and the objects of sense. The mind is unable to get out of this prejudice that the object is the object and the subject is the subject; that they are two different things. Though this is the usual idea that we have about ourselves and of things outside us, this is not the truth about things. Witnessing requires you to be in the moment and to see things as they are. It enables you to respond with greater skill, intuition grace and wisdom. The witness is the silent, peaceful centre of your being. It is from this perspective that you view your mind, the eternally changing, thinking, emoting, feeling, remembering and desiring part of you. Cultivating the witness in meditation enables you to forge the correct relationship between the unchanging witness and the ever-changing mind. You learn how to make the mind a tool that you can use to live a fulfilled life. If you have not developed the witness then your mind becomes your master.

So what is the mind? There are four parts to the mind:

1. Cognitive mind (manas – मनस्): this is the thinking aspect of the mind; it carries out perception and cognition through the five senses as well as activate motor control; it does the willing, wishing, desiring; it has the emotions etc. The manas interacts with the intellect and the outside world through the five senses.

2. Intellect (buddhi – बुद्धि): This is the decision-making element in the mind-field. It discriminates between all the dualities – good/bad, hot/cold, honor/dishonor etc. and helps us make ‘intelligent’ decisions. It interacts with the ego (ahankara) and the chitta (storehouse of memories and past impressions, called samskaras).

3. Ego (ahankara – अहंकार): Ego or ahamkara, literally the I-maker, is the one that identifies the Self with the mind-body complex and gives the notion of ‘My’ individuality. It puts labels on everything that we perceive, whether through the five senses, or something pulled from the memory – labels like good/bad, ugly/handsome, father, mother, rich, poor etc. It is the ego which identifies all the likes and dislikes. It interacts with the chitta (memory) and the intellect.

4. Storehouse of memories and past impressions (chitta – चित्त): This is where all the memories, past impressions (called samskaras), hidden desires (called vasanas) etc. are stored. Every action that we do, every thought that occurs in the mind, creates an impression which gets stored in the chitta. These impressions lay in the sub-conscious until a suitable trigger pulls them out and brings them as active content of the mind, called ‘pratyaya’ by Patanjali.

In Vedantic parlance, there are four dimensions or categories to mind (thought) in its function. These dimensions of mind are known as ego (ahamkaara), reasoning and determining faculty, buddhi (self-consciousness, higher mind, working mind or impersonal mind), lower mind or intellect (manas) and memory (chittha or chittham). It is important to note that these are not divisions but functions. The mind is called with four different names depending on the function it performs. In order to learn how to control the mind-field, it will be helpful to understand what this mind-field is and how the mind functions. In Vedic ancient literature, especially the Vedantic texts, this mind-field is given the name “Antahakarana” (the inner instrument). The mind is charged with consciousness, as a copper wire may be charged with electricity. Anthahkarana is a reflecting medium for pure consciousness (pure consciousness cannot take part). The reflected consciousness that can take part in an individual is called "chidhaabhasa". Consciousness is that by which "I know that I am", awareness is simply "I". Vedanta states that of the four states of ambulating, dreaming, delta sleep and turiya or pure consciousness, the omnipresent Brahman is part of the fourth state only.

The individual’s decision making function (discriminatory function) is performed by the intellect (buddhi). The mind feeds all information to the intellect. The intellect has to make a decision what to do with the information. The intellect is unable to make an independent decision on its own. It needs to consult with the “boss”, the ego (ahankara) before making any decision. So it approaches the ego for advice. There are a lot of lookups in the storehouse between ego and intellect and they could be divergence in opinions.

Yoga is control of the mind, restraint of the mind-stuff. Patanjali says - योगश्चित्तवृत्तिनिरोधः॥२॥ yoga is chitta-vritti-nirodhah. As a word, vritti means literally vortex (of consciousness), or "circular activity with no beginning and no end". What the mind serves up are the images designed to entertain consciousness. The mind never sees 'the thing in itself'. Mind is immaterial when compared with matter but it is a subtle material when compared with consciousness. Since mind is an object for a subject (mind or thoughts can be known), it is considered non-intelligent or inert. Mind is not self-revealing. Mind has its seat in the physical brain, during the waking state, mind gains experiences of the physical universe in and through the vibrations of the brain. It is mind's function to act as a limiter to the vision of the self/consciousness so that the experience is experienced vividly.

Controlling the mind is really a difficult task and in Bhagavad Gita 6.35
श्रीभगवानुवाच | असंशयं महाबाहो मनो दुर्निग्रहं चलम् | अभ्यासेन तु कौन्तेय वैराग्येण च गृह्यते || 35||
śhrī bhagavān uvācha
asanśhayaṁ mahā-bāho mano durnigrahaṁ chalam
abhyāsena tu kaunteya vairāgyeṇa cha gṛihyate
Lord Krishna said: O mighty-armed son of Kunti, what you say is correct; the mind is indeed very difficult to restrain. But by practice and detachment, it can be controlled.

Krishna agrees that mind is unsteady and restless and therefore difficult to control and that the goal cannot be easily reached. But through practice and detachment mind can be brought under control. Practice is the effort of the mind towards calmness. Practice becomes firmly grounded when it is followed for a long time and unremittingly with devotion. The end is easily achieved with the help of austerity, continence, discrimination and faith. The aspirant must not lose courage in the face of repeated failures. Detachment is freedom from thirst for any pleasure seen or heard of. It is acquired through a constant perception of evil in sensuous happiness, either of this life or hereafter.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by bala »

“The living entities in this conditioned world are My Eternal fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind. Yoga is known as the disconnection (viyoga) of the connection (samyoga) with suffering” - Bhagavad Gita.

A primary cause of suffering is delusion: our inability, because of a subtly willful blindness, to see things the way they truly are but instead in a distorted way. The power to create and control all this lies somewhere deep inside us, but so long as we are looking outwards, we do not have the subtlety and acuity of mind required to turn within and see what it is. Our Mind is like a finite kind of consciousness, whereas Consciousness is infinite and can never become finite. Mind is the localization or precipitation of consciousness; it is an apparent activity of consciousness. Mind is a tool of consciousness/self used to experience the world. Thoughts are like images on the screen of consciousness.

Bhagavad Gita 6.20
यत्रोपरमते चित्तं निरुद्धं योगसेवया |यत्र चैवात्मनात्मानं पश्यन्नात्मनि तुष्यति || 20||
yatroparamate chittaṁ niruddhaṁ yoga-sevayāyatra chaivātmanātmānaṁ paśhyann ātmani tuṣhyati
When the mind, restrained from material activities, becomes still by the practice of Yog, then the yogi is able to behold the atma through the purified mind, and he rejoices in the inner joy.

Yoga is a discipline which enables man to discover his true Nature. According to Yoga, man’s essence is spiritual; and his true nature may be described as freedom. By practice of yoga one becomes gradually detached from material concepts. This is the primary characteristic of the yoga. Katha Upanishad speaks of the highest condition of Yoga as a state where the senses together with the mind and intellect are fettered into immobility. The goal of yoga is essentially to cause the mind to become like zero.

Yoga was devised to meet all the deepest needs of the Atma. Yoga makes you a better person as it leads to following the laws of the universe. In the yoga sutra of Patanjali, as long as the atma is attached to sense enjoyment, it is called pratyag-atma. Yoga for obtaining liberation (moksha) from the material world, not only points the way to release, but offers a practical means of arriving there. Yoga is a practical path to self-realization, a means of attaining enlightenment by purifying the entire being, so that the mind-body can experience the absolute reality underlying the illusions of everyday life. B. K. S. Iyengar says, "Yoga is like music; the rhythm of the body, the melody of the mind and the harmony of the atma create the symphony of life".

The world is a seamless and dynamic unity: a single living organism that is constantly undergoing change. Our minds, however, chops it up into separate, static bits and pieces, which we then try mentally and physically to manipulate, powered by EGO. There is “I” and there is all the rest. That means conflict and pain, for “I” cannot control that fathomless vastness against which it is set. Maya, the cosmic Magical Measurer, which produces the illusion of dividing a portion of the Indivisible Infinite into separate finite objects. Through the power of maya, cosmic illusion, the Creator has caused the manifestations of matter to appear so distinct and specific that to the human mind they seem unrelated in any way to Spirit. Delusion divides, measures out, the Undefined Infinite into finite forms and forces. The working of cosmic delusion on these individualizations is called Avidya, individual illusion or ignorance, which imparts a specious reality to their existence as separate from Spirit. The phenomenal world operates under Maya, the law of duality or oppositional states; it is thus an unreal world that veils the truth of the Divine Oneness and Unchangeableness.

The goal of yoga is to “still” or “silence’ the modifications in consciousness, the vrittis, and thereby set the stage to learn the technique of samadhi, an advanced mental method for achieving enlightenment. The goal of the yogi is thus not to suppress, or annul their vritties, rather it is to find a harmonious balance, and ultimately, to channelize these tendencies inward so that the Mind gains great strength when the Vrittis are harnessed.

When a yogi awakens in atma consciousness all dualities disappear and he knows himself as the eternal and blissful Spirit. When one realizes oneself, one realizes the essential nature of the universe. That the existence of duality is only an illusion and when the illusion is undone, the primordial unity of one’s own nature and the nature of the universe is realized, or made real. Non-duality (Advaita) is the philosophical, spiritual, and scientific understanding of the non-separation and inherent Oneness with the Supreme. It refers to the identity of the Self (Atman) and the Whole (Brahman).

Even though we may sit for meditation in a peaceful setting, vrittis continue. Yoga is about the restraint one can impose on the mind to banish these vrittis for good. It is not an easy process. Instead it is actually a real war that takes place with the external objects (of the mind) and attachments that the mind feels towards them. It is at our subtle self. There is a great competitive activity going on inside the mind between two aspects of it – the higher and the lower, as we may call them. There is, on the one side, the desire to ramify the mind into the various objects for the purpose of contact, and on the other, the effort to centre the mind. By abhyasa (practice) one can change the outgoing Vishaya Vrittis (thoughts of physical objects) of the mind. Without the Vrittis of the mind you cannot enjoy sensual objects, and if the Vrittis along with Samskaras are controlled Manonasa (annihilation of the mind) follows.

Bhagavad Gita 6.21
सुखमात्यन्तिकं यत्तद्बुद्धिग्राह्यमतीन्द्रियम् |वेत्ति यत्र न चैवायं स्थितश्चलति तत्त्वत: || 21||
sukham ātyantikaṁ yat tad buddhi-grāhyam atīndriyamvetti yatra na chaivāyaṁ sthitaśh chalati tattvataḥ
In that joyous state of Yog, called samādhi, one experiences supreme boundless divine bliss, and thus situated, one never deviates from the Eternal Truth.

Samadhi is a state of consciousness. Nirvikalpa is a Sanskrit adjective with the general sense of “not admitting an alternative”. In Nirvikalpa samadhi, the distinction (vikalpa) of knower, act of knowing, and object known becomes dissolved, as waves vanish in water. Nirvikalpa samadhi is the highest samadhi that only the most realised spiritual Masters attain. Nirvikalpa Samadhi is the perfect flowering of a Human Being. When you harness the wandering and chattering mind, then you will come under your perfect control. Abhyasa should be continued till you get perfection. Constant, steady application is indispensable for perfect control of the mind and attainment of Asamprajnata Samadhi (Nirvikalpa Samadhi) which alone can stamp out all the seeds of Samskaras.

Karma yoga means the discipline of action or integration through activity. Karma Yoga is the Yoga of self-surrendered action. This has to be done without attachment or egoism. The karma yoga of The BhagavadGita is a unique philosophy of action and it declares that nature has given the right of action to man only but the right of the result of action is under the authority of nature. Action is a duty of man; therefore he should perform actions without the desire of fruit. Kriya yoga is a system consisting of yogic techniques that accelerate spiritual development and bring on a deep state of serenity and ultimately, communion with Brahman and nature.
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Re: Tradition, Culture, Religion & Law in Indian Society

Post by bala »

Sukshma Sarira
Sukshma sarira, or the astral body in the doctrine of karma, is known as a samskara, the latent impression embedded in your life. According to Bhagavad Gita, the subtle (pranic) body is composed of mind (manas), intelligence (buddhi) and ego (ahankara), which controls the gross physical body. Vijnanamaya encompasses intuition and intellect. It can be thought of as the witness mind, or that aspect of our consciousness that is not entangled in what we are doing or thinking, but rather, acutely aware of what we are doing and thinking. Vijnanamaya kosha is awareness, simply put. When you’ve reached the point in your yoga practice where you are much less distracted by random thoughts or occurrences and much less caught up in the anticipation of the next posture, you find that you are more able to feel the pose. Once we are able to fully engage vijnanamaya kosha, we will experience a deeper peace in our lives that comes by way of freedom from thoughts, actions, and speech that does not serve us. Vijnanamaya kosha (the psychic body) is the dimension of our personality which is operating on the astral plane. This is the body experienced during dreaming, out of body experiences, and the various types of psychic phenomena.

The same knowledge is also explained in terms of sheaths. The five sheaths (pancha-kosas) are described in the Taittiriya Upanishad. The field of the body has five kośhas (sheaths), from the gross to the fine that cover the atma that is ensconced within:
Annamaya kośh: It is the gross sheath consisting of the five gross elements (earth, water, fire, air, and space).
Prāṇamaya kośh: It is the life-airs sheath consisting of the five life airs (prāṇ, apān, vyān, samān, and udān).
Manomaya kośh: It is the mental sheath, consisting of the mind and the five working senses (voice, hands, legs, genitals, and anus).
Vijñānamaya kośh: It is the intellectual sheath, consisting of the intellect and the five knowledge senses (ears, eyes, tongue, skin, and nose).
Ānandmaya kośh: It is the bliss sheath, which consists of the ego that makes us identify with the tiny bliss of the body-mind-intellect mechanism.

In a gurukul when a Maharishi leads his pupil to Anandamaya kosha, the last words they exchange is ‘Aham Brahmasmi’ and they part probably never meet again. The Upanishads says: “Aham Brahmasmi” – “I am Brahman, I am the totality, really I am everything”.
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