DharmaB wrote:I set the matrix up in such a way, that there was a slight excess probability of moving lower in the scale, than moving higher. As the number of states increases (I increased the number from 2 all the way to 75), and considering steady-state (i.e., t->infinity), the fraction of entities in the Virus state vastly exceeded the fraction in the highest states (Human or Deva), regardless of the initial state.
Now it appears that you are pushing the state deliberately to a a lower level by assigning some higher probability (externally influencing the system? against free will or desire ?. The principle of karma has to be dominating the principle of desire or free will, to satisfy our observation) for a spirit soul to accumulate bad karma, and end up eventually in lowest states regardless of the initial state (assuming every one given fair and equal opportunity to begin with, to take a human form and perform)
This is not against free will, rather, it is because of free will. When there is no Moksha state, even then the final state is not one of everybody ending up in the lowest state, but one of a distribution, in which the lowest state dominates.
For the virus to remain permanently in that state (in view of whole system fall into the lowest state at t->infinity), at some point (on the scale of infinite time) the probability of it raising to next state has to become zero. Like it has defaulted massively and repeatedly that, based on its credit history, it will not be trusted any more and not given a chance for any new credit (karmic loan) to raise any further higher level. So it has to be permanently condemned for eternity to remain in that state of consciousness for eternity at t->infinity (die and born as virus infinite times - this more sounds like "eternal hell")
No, you got this wrong. The virus doesn't remain permanently in its state. There is a pretty large probability of its rising to the next state (definitely not zero). There is no "it will not be trusted any more," it is very much trusted, and very much does rise up, frequently in fact. In fact, the probability of a "virus rising up" that I set, was 1%, which I feel might be too high for a real world situation. Again, the final result is a distribution of state outcomes (not "everybody ends up in the virus state"), and again, this only occurs when there is no Moksha state.
Also for the the whole system fall into the lowest state at t->infinity, as you stated, there should be a less than 1 probability (probability of remaining in Moksha state or highest possible state for eternity) for a spirit soul to fall back from the state of moksha to lower levels. Then for what reason? Just as per the law of karma, there cannot be infinite result (for eternity) for a finite karma performed in one life or many lives. So it has to fall back from that state eventually sooner or later. Then that is not a state of Moksha in its literal sense, but may be a state of heaven (which is of course not permanent as per the laws of creation).
The whole system does not fall into the lowest state. Even when there is no Moksha state, even at t=infinity, there are still Humans, Devas, higher animals. The virus state just happens to be predominant (exactly like the observation you pointed out - 10^31 viruses vs. 10^10 humans, with many other intermediate species).
a) This will lead to a final state of lowest possible level for all for eternity t->infinity. No religion is up for this case
Again, this is not what the experiment shows. The experiment shows a
steady state distribution, not
everybody ends up in the lowest level. Also, steady state is not a static state, it is a dynamic one, where the rates of change between states exactly balance each other. It is still a churn.
Now if we reverse the probabilities, that there is always higher than zero probability for a virus to raise to next level either by earning credit by itself living as virus for certain time and qualifies to go to next level in the game automatically. Or after some time it qualifies for new karmic loan automatically (regardless of its history, like the defaulters in our financial sytem qualify for loan after certain period of condemnation, writing off their bad loans, forgiveness...). Then for the system to reach a steady end state, the probability of remaining in highest possible state for eternity has to be 1. Then eventually all end up to a final state of moksha sooner or later at t->infinity.
Moksha is the guaranteed end state for all of us. Are you uncomfortable with this statement?
b) This will lead to a final state of highest possible level for all for eternity t->infinity. This is the case what you are trying to make
c) If the probability of a virus to rise above next level becomes zero at some point, and if the probability of falling back from highest state is also zero, then some will end up at lowest level, and some in highest level at t->infinity. There can not be any middle level in between. It implies, at some point in t->infinity, the creation has to cease to manifest, any different state other than these two states ( eternal hell and eternal heaven like in case of Abrahamic faiths with an exception of rebirth)
The probability of a virus rising to the next level does not become zero at any point. The probability of this is finite, and pretty large in fact. The probability of falling back from the Moksha state was set at zero initially, but later I relaxed this constraint and allowed entities in Moksha to have a finite probability of wanting to re-enter the material. Despite this, eventually, all entities still ended up in the Moksha state (unless, of course, I drastically skewed the probabilities).
This was for small matrix sizes (between 2 to 40 species). For larger matrices, I was running into a lot of numerical stability issues, so the results are
inconclusive, not negative. It is still perfectly possible to have a matrix with 1.5 million entries (the current number of recognized species in our world), where there is a finite probability of rising above the lowest state, and also of leaving the Moksha state for lower states,
and still have the whole system converge to Moksha at t=infinity.
d) More importantly for (a) & (b) & (c) to happen there has to be a finite number of spirit souls in the system at any given time. Then only it would lead to a steady end state at t->infinity.
Do you know how to set up a simulation with infinite number of souls?
. But how did you come to this conclusion to begin with? Is this a mathematical conclusion, or your own intuitive one? Is there a (mathematical) reason that you know of, why an infinite number of souls will not end up in steady state?
EDIT: Just to point out - the simulation works with fractional shares, not with absolute numbers. So I didn't even set up the total number of souls in the simulation, theoretically the results apply regardless of this total number (since everything works with fractions). So theoretically, the results should be scalable even for an infinite number of souls (but I don't have enough of a math background to be sure of this).
e) If the probability of a virus to rise above is always more than zero, and if the probability of remaining in Moksha state for eternity is always less than 1, then there is no steady state to reach at t->infinity. it would only mean that it is always in a swing state or oscillating state for eternity. Meaning it has always been in steady state of equilibrium (from t-> minus infinity to t-> infinity) at any given time including the moment NOW. (Swamy Dayananda case)
This is again wrong. I set up some smaller matrices (like I indicated above) with finite probability of a virus rising above its state, and a finite probability of leaving the Moksha state, and the convergence at t=infinity was still to Moksha. Like I said, for larger matrices, my matrix library was running into issues, and I don't trust the results.
f) What if there are infinite number of (supply of) spirit souls from the infinite ocean of consciousness or God (God as depicted in the picture I shared, God in Beyond Beyond state, infinite, all pervading). The Dharmic faiths comes into picture from here. The purpose of Vedanta comes into picture from here...
Sir ji, I thought this was about matching theory to observation? The observation from our world is that there are 10^31 viruses, about 10^10 humans, and a finite number of other species. A postulate has been made, an experiment has been set up, a match has been shown between experiment and observation. Now why speculate about "but what if there is an infinity of souls?" Do you have an observation which shows an infinity of souls?
If we look at the concepts and results from a), b) and in particular c) it will look more or less like Abrahamic concept of eternal heaven or eternal hell satisfying the condition (d), with a only difference of whether it is a test for one life time or many with rebirth). And there should be a starting point in time and there has to be an end point in time (like judgement day), The system involved here eventually leads to a conclusion that it is a closed and finite system. Then there is no real meaning of infinity on material plane or subtle conscious plane (of God, and his eventual characteristics of all pervading, infinite...etc.)
I don't see how you come to this conclusion, possibly it is a misinterpretation of the results (see above, there were some wrong notions about how the experiment was set up in your post, which I pointed out).
Briefly:
- A postulate was made
- You made a valid point, that there was a startling observation involving the overwhelming numerical superiority of the virus state over the human state
- And you had a valid concern that the postulate predictions might be unable to match the observation
- The experiment shows that the postulate predictions can and do match the observation
- Now it seems to me that the above post is no longer about any issues of mismatch between postulate and observation, but more along the lines of discomfort with the implications of the postulate
- And there is also speculation about "what if there is actually an infinity of souls" which is not part of the observation (or any observation that we know of) to begin with (more like a philosophical concern)
Also - when I said that I set up the experiment with "a slight excess tendency to misuse karmic credit, over responsible use" - this is how I set it up:
30% chance of falling into a lower state (i.e., because of abuse of karmic credit)
50% chance of remaining in the same state (i.e., neutral use of karmic credit)
20% chance of going to a higher state (i.e., taking advantage of karmic credit to uplift oneself)
So as you can see, 70% of entities are set up to be neutral or positive, with only 30% being irresponsible enough to fall behind. This is actually a greater than 2 to 1 split between good use of karmic credit, vs. bad use. The excess tendency to fall behind only involves the "falling behind" cases vs. the "lifting up" cases. I.e., the profligates, vs. the entrepreneurs,
after the statists are taken out of the equation.
Now you might argue that 30% vs 20% is still an excessive tendency to fall lower vs. rise higher. Of course it is, I had to set it up that way with the small number of species I had (75 at most). Now run the experiment with 1.5 million species, and you will probably find that a 25.000...0001% vs. 24.999...999% differential between rising vs. falling is enough to explain the 10^21 ratio between virus count and human count.
To clarify again - with a Moksha state in place, even with the assumption that those who enjoy Moksha might still want to come back to the material plane (i.e., a finite probability of "falling back"), and with a finite probability of rising above the virus state, the end state is still Moksha (unless, of course, the probabilites are drastically skewed). But before that end state is reached, there are intermediate states where the virus count vastly outnumbers the human count - this is a transient, and our current observation of virus count being a billion*trillion times greater than the human count is a transient - the eventual state for us is also Moksha.