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Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

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ArjunPandit
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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 20 Jun 2017 20:45

Pathans doing it with pakistan
I have a suspicion that we are following the templates of big powers and using fault lines between afghanistan and pakistan in a way remarkably close to what china is doing with India. Hopefully, this needling will increase to porkies being nailed
We should also look this airlink with afghans also in context of current us dispensation's dislike for Iran.

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby jayasimha » 22 Jun 2017 14:29

20 Killed, 50 Injured in Car Bomb Attack in Afghanistan


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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby rsangram » 22 Jun 2017 22:45

So, heard this from a fairly reliable source, who is from Langley

Trump is very impressed with the Chinese for "trying" to help out with the |North Koreans, despite the fact that, that "trying" yielded no results - zero, zilch. However, the Chinese have now bought credibility with Trump, to a point, where the pressure is off of them from the US on trade, currency and other such issues. It seems that Trump is even willing to throw Taiwan under the bus and not rake up the South China Sea issue much, as long as the Chinese don't rub it in the Americans' face. There is a sense in the White House now, that despite fiery campaign rhetoric, a confrontation with China now is unwinnable, and therefore, not worth entertaining, as losing a confrontation with China, even a diplomatic one, will be perceived as a defeat in Middle American, which the Trump White House does not want to risk. There also seems to be intelligence to the effect that the Russian Ambassador to Washington, Kysliac, is playing a very important role in mediating between Trump's inner circle at the White House and the Chinese, via Lavrov, who, as Putin's "Erdogan-esque" lapdog is getting increasingly closer to Xi Jinping.

With the above paragraph as context, it appears as though the Chinese, using Russians as intermediaries, are proposing a long term settlement in Afghanistan to Trump and Trump is listening to Bannon on this, and Bannon is inclined towards this deal. It must be remembered, that Bannon heads the isolationist wing in the White House, in addition to the hardcore racist wing and therefore, is loathe to continue this war in Afghanistan. Trump's instincts too are isolationist, and hardcore racist, and he tends to coalesce around Bannon on these issues. Besides the Trump/Bannon combine along with many others in Washington in the White House and the Capitol, look upon the Afghan war as an unwanted inheritance and an irritant, which they want to get rid of, at the earliest, so that they can focus on "more important issues", such as Domestic Policy, Controlling illegal AND legal immigration and scoring small victories overseas, which would help brand Trump as a warrior president among Middle America, which by the way, is the wet dream of every US President in history.

The outlines and contours of the Chinese proposed, long term deal on Afghanistan, according to this source in Langley, are as follows:

1. Keep the status quo going with the US actually increasing the number of troops by about 5000, for the next year or so, so that this does not appear to be a full and blatant capitulation by US.

2. After a year or so, the US would join a "peace conference", on Afghanistan, convened by the Russians, with the Chinese, Pakis, Afghans, Talibans, Saudis and the Turks attending. The Saudis, the Turks and the Chinese, including the Russians, will put pressure on Taliban to disband, thereby, handing a "victory" to the Americans. The Americans will declare victory or Trump might even declare a Triumph, for winning a war, which everybody said was unwinnable.

3. In the same conference, it will be agreed that in return for Taliban disbanding, a lot of their members will be accorded power sharing, and in essence this will be a Taliban government, in everything but name.

4. The Taliban government will agree to allow other "pro American" and old "Northern Alliance" factions to live and exist and be token participants in the government, provided they disband and do not maintain any private armies. The Americans will guarantee this castration.

5. The Pakis, the Turks, the Saudis, the Chinese and the Russians will guarantee to the Americans, there this new "Taliban" government, will not allow any "radical groups", meaning, any anti-Western groups to exist in Afghanistan or establish bases there, to carry on anti-West activities from Afghanistan.

6. The Americans will not ask for any guarantees or even assurances from any of these countries, including the new "Taliban" dispensation of Afghanistan, to refrain from any terrorist activities directed towards India. At best, there will be some vague statement about the new "Taliban" government wanting good relations with all its neighbors and will work, as it has always worked, even in its previous life, not to destabilize any of its neighbors.

7. The Chinese will be granted deep footholds in Afghanistan, once this new Taliban dispensation has taken power, to develop and exploit the natural resources and minerals of Afghanistan, for the "benefit of Afghans, of all shades". The Chinese will come up with this "Grand Vision" of developing Afghanistan into this economic powerhouse, which will play a vital role in connecting East Asia (China), South Asia (Pakistan) to Central Asia and ultimately Russia, via what they will propose as the "South to North" corridor of its Silk Road initiative.

8. The Americans will be thrown some crumbs in the form of some mining contracts in Afghanistan, particularly in those areas, where the Chinese do not have the technology to exploit the mineral resources of Afghanistan.

9. The Pakis will be big economic beneficiaries in all of this, as all the trade generated from these new economic initiatives and the Chinese "Grand Vision", the maritime portion of it, will be routed via Gawdar and the Pakis will collect handsome rent for that.

10. The Americans will declare PAkis as their strategic and Non-Nato ally, and announce a long term aid and arms package worth billions every year.

11. The Russians will get iron clad assurances from Paki, Chinese, Turks, and the Saudis, that there will be no Islamic Terrorism targeted at Russia, certainly not from Afghanistan and if rogue Islamic groups do target Russia, that it will have the full support of all these countries, if Russia decides to retaliate in the most brutal fashion. Russians may even get some accommodation from Saudis on future Syrian dispensation and particularly on securing their naval base in Syria
Last edited by rsangram on 22 Jun 2017 23:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby ramana » 22 Jun 2017 23:40

Interesting 10 point plan.

Quite complex except 6. wont work. May be in UPA era but not now or in future.

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby rsangram » 22 Jun 2017 23:47

ramana wrote:Interesting 10 point plan.

Quite complex except 6. wont work. May be in UPA era but not now or in future.


Actually, 11 points, I forgot the 11th point, which I just added.

Why do you think it is complex ? Actually, it is quite simple, almost too simple. Conceived by the Chinese, simplified by the Russians, or shall I say, dumbed down for the Americans, by the Russians.

And why don't you think it will work ? It is taking care of everyone's interest.

By UPA government, you mean, Indian government. As you probably noticed, the Indians have no say in any of this, and who among the participants do you think will bat for the Indians and how strongly ?

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 22 Jun 2017 23:53

Rsangram,
Very interesting plan. Quite possible too. The only spoilers are (even though very remote)
1. India taking back PoK and lighting up
2. CPEC collapsing and china retreating back into its shell

Also, I dont think war with China is unwinnable, US still holds significant edge in conventional weapons over china, more than enough to damage chinese H&D

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby ramana » 22 Jun 2017 23:56

Everyone of those players is a rat who will look after themselves and to cooperate among themselves to achieve that will require a very big payoff. Many opportunities for each of them to defect and not cooperate of cut local deals among themselves which will negate the bigger deal.

Pakistan, KSA, and Turkey might not exists in its current form in a few years.
Turks have no added value to the above game.
What do they bring to the table?

India already has the secure(terrorist free) INSTC from Mumbai to Moscow via Chahbahar. And is racing to complete other routes to link to this.
In most likelihood the Chinese will link up Gawdar to Chahbhar which is only 100 km away.


Also on Point 11 its US that marshals/controls the jihadis.
So an assurance from those minions to Russia is not worth the paper its written on.

---
This biggest problem is this is not a Chinese plan but a US plan.

Its presented as a sequential game which makes to simple when the core game is concurrent with the players working to maximize their payoff.

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby pankajs » 22 Jun 2017 23:59

9 is a pipe dream ... based on a baki commentators analysis in one of their programs. This was before CEPC but his logic still stands.

One baki was boasting that India will have to come to some kind of settlement on Kashmir with Bakis on its terms IF it wan't access to Central Asian markets.
The other bakis rightly reminded him that while India will certainly like access to Central Asia but it will not even give an inch on Kashmir in exchange. Why you may ask? The *realistic* baki said that Central Asian population wasn't high enough to really be a big market for India for it to make any concessions on Kashmir. Very rare for a baki to not build a hawai mahal.

While trade with access to *land locked* Central Asia will certainly bring some revenue, perhaps even cover cost of maintaining the land route, such a project earning *handsome* profit is just a pipe-dream. There are 2 other points that will make this a pipe-dream but that will be for another post.

Theek hai bhai.

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby rsangram » 23 Jun 2017 00:00

ArjunPandit wrote:Rsangram,
Very interesting plan. Quite possible too. The only spoilers are (even though very remote)
1. India taking back PoK and lighting up
2. CPEC collapsing and china retreating back into its shell

Also, I dont think war with China is unwinnable, US still holds significant edge in conventional weapons over china, more than enough to damage chinese H&D


1. India taking back PoK and lighting up - will be a definite spoiler, but how likely is that ? :lol:

2. CPEC collapsing will be another spoiler - but how likely is that, particularly with now the Chinese now so invested in this that they will never allow themselves to lose face, and do everything in their power to sustain CPEC. If it were just an economic corridor, it could well collapse. But it is primarily a political and military expansion strategic corridor, which the Chinese will never allow to collapse.

3. Americans do not have the will or the stomach to risk even a minor confrontation with China. They will never risk it. They will strategically retreat instead. Trump is like most US presidents. He is very Caligula like in his thinking. Pick on low hanging fruit. He will pick on his own Grenada or Panama in due course, before the next elections, to prove how macho he is and the Americans are.

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby rsangram » 23 Jun 2017 00:06

ramana wrote:Everyone of those players is a rat who will look after themselves and to cooperate among themselves to achieve that will require a very big payoff. Many opportunities for each of them to defect and not cooperate of cut local deals among themselves which will negate the bigger deal.

Pakistan, KSA, and Turkey might not exists in its current form in a few years.
Turks have no added value to the above game.
What do they bring to the table?

India already has the secure(terrorist free) INSTC from Mumbai to Moscow via Chahbahar. And is racing to complete other routes to link to this.
In most likelihood the Chinese will link up Gawdar to Chahbhar which is only 100 km away.


Also on Point 11 its US that marshals/controls the jihadis.
So an assurance from those minions to Russia is not worth the paper its written on.

---
This biggest problem is this is not a Chinese plan but a US plan.

Its presented as a sequential game which makes to simple when the core game is concurrent with the players working to maximize their payoff.



Seems to me like everyone gets benefits. Americans don't control the Jihadis, or else, they would not be in Afghanistan.

Also, your main point seems to be that this plan wont work because "others" will never cooperate. This is consistent with traditional Indian thinking and mindset, which has many flaws, two of the main ones being:

1. It underestimates others

2. It again relies on others' disintegration to protect Indian interests, rather than proactive Indian approach to protect Indian interests. It is like saying, "We Indians will continue our centuries long tradition of being indulgent, debauch, cowardly, lazy, do nothing, corrupt and traitorous" , never change, and simply rely on others destroying themselves or not getting their act together, to survive.

Also to your points, the notion that Paki, Turkey and KSA will not exist in their current form in a few years, is a pipe dream at best and delusional at worst. There is no evidence of that. India seems more likely to not exist in its current form than those countries, if it continues along the same lines that it has been on for the past several decades, Modi not withstanding. This type of thinking is nothing but propaganda which does nothing but make Indians even more delusional and complacent, and even less proactive to take urgent steps to improve ourselves and our condition.

Turks have nuisance value, and a strategic locational value. Besides Erdogan has already started indulging in supporting Islamic terrorists - he is one of the chief and early sponsors of ISIS, along with the Saudis, and he can cause problems for both the Russians and the Americans. He can also conceivably cause problems for the Chinese in Xinjiang, so he does carry nuisance value for the Chinese as well.

Chhabar is not yet even fully operational, is likely to be of very limited value to India practically, and will probably be a fiasco, given the Iranian temperament, unreliability, swift about turns, inherent extremist Islamism and penchant for self flagellation (no pun intended). This is the hardcore truth.

If these countries truly cant reach an understanding, as you say, yes, then it wont happen, obviously.

But, what if they do.........? And how long do we rely on other's incompetence to survive, as Indians ?
Last edited by rsangram on 23 Jun 2017 00:25, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby pankajs » 23 Jun 2017 00:09

ramana wrote:India already has the secure(terrorist free) INSTC from Mumbai to Moscow via Chahbahar. And is racing to complete other routes to link to this.

OK ... Ramana saar has just made my next point that any land route from CA to Gwadar will have competition and hence will NOT be able to fleece transporters and earn *handsome* profit.

For the 3rd point, does anyone remember the dry run conducted by Indian firms on this North-South corridor? What was the saving on transportation cost that was achieved hanji? That difference will limit what super-normal profits can be earned. Else, India or others will just use the old route via Russia to Central Asia.

There goes all the *handsome* profit that will be earned by Bakis to provide a land route to CA.

Theek hai ji.
Last edited by pankajs on 23 Jun 2017 00:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby Karthik S » 23 Jun 2017 00:10

Having done little reading about Afghans, I highly doubt whether there can be any such agreement with the taliban or afghans. The main point is, the Afghans follow tribalism at it's purest form. i.e. they hate all outsiders, wouldn't work with them, don't like to be told that they have to do. Didn't fight the IS as well? As such there were/are many different warlords, it's not a democratic society especially the taliban, wherein you can't talk to the "govt" and have an understanding or settlement. Also, I am HIGHLY doubtful, if they will let in the Chinese as they are hoping. I'd consider any cheen investment in Afghanistan more risky than CPEC, if you take out the PoK part of it.

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 23 Jun 2017 00:22

rsangram wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:Rsangram,
Very interesting plan. Quite possible too. The only spoilers are (even though very remote)

The bold part answers your comment... no?

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby rsangram » 23 Jun 2017 00:23

Karthik S wrote:Having done little reading about Afghans, I highly doubt whether there can be any such agreement with the taliban or afghans. The main point is, the Afghans follow tribalism at it's purest form. i.e. they hate all outsiders, wouldn't work with them, don't like to be told that they have to do. Didn't fight the IS as well? As such there were/are many different warlords, it's not a democratic society especially the taliban, wherein you can't talk to the "govt" and have an understanding or settlement. Also, I am HIGHLY doubtful, if they will let in the Chinese as they are hoping. I'd consider any cheen investment in Afghanistan more risky than CPEC, if you take out the PoK part of it.



Yes, yes, it is the Afghan tribalism that will save us Indians......

Does anybody remember the Taliban rule in Afghanistan ? More than a decade long Taliban rule....remember ? The Afghans will let the Pakis in, who they ostensibly hate, but not the Chinese ?

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby rsangram » 23 Jun 2017 00:23

ArjunPandit wrote:
rsangram wrote:

The bold part answers your comment... no?


Yes...I wasn't quibbling with you, just agreeing with you.

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby Karthik S » 23 Jun 2017 00:26

rsangram wrote:
Karthik S wrote:Having done little reading about Afghans, I highly doubt whether there can be any such agreement with the taliban or afghans. The main point is, the Afghans follow tribalism at it's purest form. i.e. they hate all outsiders, wouldn't work with them, don't like to be told that they have to do. Didn't fight the IS as well? As such there were/are many different warlords, it's not a democratic society especially the taliban, wherein you can't talk to the "govt" and have an understanding or settlement. Also, I am HIGHLY doubtful, if they will let in the Chinese as they are hoping. I'd consider any cheen investment in Afghanistan more risky than CPEC, if you take out the PoK part of it.



Yes, yes, it is the Afghan tribalism that will save us Indians......

Does anybody remember the Taliban rule in Afghanistan ? More than a decade long Taliban rule....remember ? The Afghans will let the Pakis in, who they ostensibly hate, but not the Chinese ?


I didn't say it from Indian perspective but rather from whatever deal you mentioned. If you think because the taliban let in pakis (whatever that means), therefore they'll let in Chinese, you need to do some research about Afghan society.

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby Rudradev » 23 Jun 2017 00:26

Yeah, right. I also have a "source in Langley". I smell him whenever I visit Pakistan every morning. What an absolute load of tripe.

Does anybody really believe that these "assurances" are going to mean a damn thing? This so-called "plan" relies completely on the presumed credibility of actors who have ZERO history of good faith with one another to keep any sort of agreement in place.

From the US point of view:

Washington is supposed to accept Russian/Chinese/Saudi/Turkey/(and of all things) Paki assurances to the US that Taliban-ruled Afghanistan will not be used for "anti-West" terrorism?

Have Russia, China, Saudi,or Turkey been able to enforce any writ upon the Taliban (or other Islamist Tanzeems of AfPak) to date? Has Pakistan been willing to enforce restrictions upon the Taliban in line with Washington's wishes, even assuming that it is effectively able to do so?

Does Pakistan (TSPA/ISI) stand to gain or lose, if Afghanistan once more becomes a hub of anti-Western terrorism? Do the rentier entities controlling Pakistan see more of a profit motive, or less, in an American presence in Afghanistan with the supply lines entirely dependent on Islamabad?

Even if the US (for whatever reason) was willing to trust in the good faith of all these "assuring" parties, it would have no reason whatsoever to trust in their *ability* to deliver on these promises.

From the Paki point of view:

With a US presence in Afghanistan, Pakistan has the USA by the short and curlies. Overflight, intelligence, ground transit, everything involved in maintaining that ground presence depends on TSPA/ISI.

If the US leaves Afghanistan what does TSPA/ISI have? That's right, "assurances" that US WILL declare it a major non-NATO ally (the US actually has conferred this status upon Pakistan many years ago, and I am surprised that this so-called "source in Langley" is not aware of something that basic when expounding this supposed "plan").

From the Taliban point of view:

Right now they are a Kabila whom everybody fears. They (and their clients) get really rich profiting from the dynamics of a war economy, and because they have armed militias they can physically place their hands on the chokepoints of that economy to ensure monopolistic control.

If they "disband", and come overground as a "legitimate" government by the international community's standards, what do they have? A nice cap and sherwani like Hamid Karzai or Ashraf Ghani wears? Neatly uniformed guards who are sitting ducks for IEDs and snipers? The weakest conventional military in the region, utterly helpless before the Pakis, Chinese, Iranians, and even various CARs? Do they want to become the hapless, stationary sheep of the Kabul government while IS and other groups take over the primacy of Kabila power and become the new dominant wolves in the countryside?

The Taliban's strongest feature IS its ability to control the country of Afghanistan at the grassroots, in a way that no Kabul government after 1992 has been able to. Its Kabila properties: decentralization, power to enforce Sharia from village-to-village, ability to mobilize and strike at very short notice... these are its strengths.

What would it be giving them up in exchange for?

Oh that's right, I forgot. "Assurances".

Even if some Taliban leaders agree to become part of the "legitimate" Kabul government and retire fat & happy, the vast majority will not. It will be Burhanuddin Rabbani redux for those who do.

From the Russian/Chinese/Turkey/Saudi point of view the "agreement" is a "zero-loss" proposition, in Kapil Sibal terminology. What do they have to do? Give "assurances" and watch as the Americans go away.

Assuming, of course, that the Americans are actually stupid enough to walk away from nine+ large, well-established military bases in the Mackinderian Heartland in exchange for these types of "assurances".

Total rubbish.

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby rsangram » 23 Jun 2017 00:39

World

[size=150]Americans don't have the stomach to win a war like Afghanistan. It's time to get out.

[/size]Los Angeles Times 2 hours 45 minutes ago .

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/readersr ... story.html

This is the umpteenth article within the American press this year, urging the US to get out.

The PR campaign to leave Afghanistan has already started in earnest in the US press, clearly nudged along by the US government, to prepare the Middle Americans for the imminent withdrawal from Afghanistan.

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby Rudradev » 23 Jun 2017 01:00

So even while Trump is actually preparing to increase the US military presence in Afghanistan, his government is slyly publishing op-eds to mobilize public opinion in favor of "imminent" withdrawal from Afghanistan.

Acchha.

Most people would recognize that the Los Angeles Times is part of the liberal MSM that regularly publishes articles to mobilize public opinion against ANY of Trump's initiatives (and its primary readership is not in "Middle America", but on the heavily blue West Coast). But why accept the obvious explanation when some uber-chanakyan scenario involving "source in Langley" can be contrived instead.

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby ramana » 23 Jun 2017 01:38

While we argue the Taliban has setoff a huge bomb in Helmand province and killed quite a few people.

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby rsangram » 23 Jun 2017 01:46

ramana wrote:While we argue the Taliban has setoff a huge bomb in Helmand province and killed quite a few people.


How do Paki get away with ALL THIS ?

Poor Qatar just got bent over and rammed royally without any lube, for just dabbling in tiny amounts of this stuff and that too indirectly, via just some financing and some Al Jazeera.........and by a major league terror sponsor like Saudi.....so so ironic...

And Paki, they get away with everything.........they have been bending over the Americans for decades and doing them in all the acrobatic positions....and us Indians too.......HOW ??

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby ramana » 23 Jun 2017 01:56

^^^ It could be Ramzan IEDs.
The Taliban bombed a bank where soldiers collect their paychecks in Helmand.
Mostly civilians were killed.

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby pankajs » 23 Jun 2017 02:40

rsangram wrote:And Paki, they get away with everything.........they have been bending over the Americans for decades and doing them in all the acrobatic positions....and us Indians too.......HOW ??

Are you serious?

One Baki says "Kashmir hum le ke rahenga .. insa alla .. insa alla"
Another Baki says "Sabz parcham lal kila per lahrayange"
Another Baki says "We will eat grass but build the atim bum"
I could go on and on but you get the drift.

So that is exactly what the bakis have done. They have forced their people to eat grass in trying to compete with India. In their competition with India they have put their country and its entire population at risk of hunger, poverty, radicalization and perhaps on path to breakup. They have already lost East Pakistan and what is now known as Bangladesh.

One Bakis say "Once upon a time the per capita GDP of Bakistan > per capita GDP of India. But we [bakistan] has now fallen behind India"
Another Bakis says " India is sending missions to mars and we can't even send up a decent rocket even while our [baki] space program is older than India's."

India has taken a few blows here and there but we have gone past them in most parameters. Just to list a few, education, healthcare, industry, science and technology, Infrastructure, etc.

If a country is willing to put itself and its citizens at risk of annihilation [An American says "Bakis negotiate with a gun to their head"], like Bakistan and NOKO, hell they can get away with a lot of stuff but karma will catch up and here I am not talking in philosophical terms. They tried to create instability within India and now the blowback has hit them harder. They tried to snatch Kashmir but lost East Pakistan in the process.

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby rsangram » 23 Jun 2017 02:58

pankajs wrote:
rsangram wrote:And Paki, they get away with everything.........they have been bending over the Americans for decades and doing them in all the acrobatic positions....and us Indians too.......HOW ??

Are you serious?

One Baki says "Kashmir hum le ke rahenga .. insa alla .. insa alla"
Another Baki says "Sabz parcham lal kila per lahrayange"
Another Baki says "We will eat grass but build the atim bum"
I could go on and on but you get the drift.

So that is exactly what the bakis have done. They have forced their people to eat grass in trying to compete with India. In their competition with India they have put their country and its entire population at risk of hunger, poverty, radicalization and perhaps on path to breakup. They have already lost East Pakistan and what is now known as Bangladesh.

One Bakis say "Once upon a time the per capita GDP of Bakistan > per capita GDP of India. But we [bakistan] has now fallen behind India"
Another Bakis says " India is sending missions to mars and we can't even send up a decent rocket even while our [baki] space program is older than India's."

India has taken a few blows here and there but we have gone past them in most parameters. Just to list a few, education, healthcare, industry, science and technology, Infrastructure, etc.

If a country is willing to put itself and its citizens at risk of annihilation [An American says "Bakis negotiate with a gun to their head"], like Bakistan and NOKO, hell they can get away with a lot of stuff but karma will catch up and here I am not talking in philosophical terms. They tried to create instability within India and now the blowback has hit them harder. They tried to snatch Kashmir but lost East Pakistan in the process.


We can use some of that "we will eat grass" mentality in India just about now.

In the pursuit of extremism and barbarity, such a policy is a vice.

In the pursuit of "Dharma" such a policy is a virtue.

In either case, it is highly effective.

pankajs
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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby pankajs » 23 Jun 2017 03:02

If loosing half the country is success then I guess such a policy can be thought of as effective but not in my books.

On most parameters, the citizens of India are better than they were before while the bakis have been sliding down in-spite of their "success". In my book India has won not withstanding small hiccups and pin-pricks.

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby rsangram » 23 Jun 2017 04:19

pankajs wrote:If loosing half the country is success then I guess such a policy can be thought of as effective but not in my books.

On most parameters, the citizens of India are better than they were before while the bakis have been sliding down in-spite of their "success". In my book India has won not withstanding small hiccups and pin-pricks.


Let us be honest. The fact that Paki has retained half of its territory is a success for Paki, as far as I am concerned and a huge ongoing defeat for India.

Given the nature of Pakistan, the nature of its state religion and the nature of its actions every day since its inception, it is a "SUCCESS" that, that country exists at all. In fact it is a miracle. It bolsters the PAki claim that Allah is the real God.

The very existence of even one square inch of Paki is an enduring defeat for India and by implication an enduring success for Paki. But we all know, it is doing much better than that, territorially

For a religion which claims that it has no "attachment" to territory, Islam is the greatest territory hog in the history of mankind, even surpassing the massive European land grab of the New World from the native populations. Islamists just love territory, they get drunk on it. New territory and its women, without its men ! That is their motto.

If there was any divine justice, PAki would have long ceased to exist. Makes me a non believer, that this monstrosity still exists, with ANY territory.

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby pankajs » 23 Jun 2017 04:35

^^
Brilliant! Massa-alla! Massa-alla!

Perfect baki logic! Bakis won 1965 and Kargil. But this is the first time I have heard/read a baki claim victory for 1971. Unfair didi too says the same thing. Bakis surviving to fight India another day is considered a victory by Baki army. How well you thought sync with the Baki army! If you probe deep enough the bakis does get revealed.

BTW, I had called a similar sounding id a baki pretending to be an Indian loooong back based on another conversation. His style too was similar to yours. The only thing is this current id of your does not go that far back. That memory made me check you post trail before making the first post today on this thread.

G'nite.

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby Rudradev » 23 Jun 2017 04:53

pankajs wrote:^^
Brilliant! Massa-alla! Massa-alla!

Perfect baki logic! Bakis won 1965 and Kargil. But this is the first time I have heard/read a baki claim victory for 1971. Unfair didi too says the same thing. Bakis surviving to fight India another day is considered a victory by Baki army. How well you thought sync with the Baki army! If you probe deep enough the bakis does get revealed.

BTW, I had called a similar sounding id a baki pretending to be an Indian loooong back based on another conversation. His style too was similar to yours. The only thing is this current id of your does not go that far back. That memory made me check you post trail before making the first post today on this thread.

G'nite.


Pankajs ji,

That is EXACTLY what he is. On the J&K thread he has proposed giving away Indian territory in a "second partition of India", and provided all sorts of loud-mouthed, feeble-minded arguments to justify his treasonous proposal as somehow "strategic".
Last edited by Rudradev on 23 Jun 2017 09:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby rsangram » 23 Jun 2017 05:17

pankajs wrote:^^
Brilliant! Massa-alla! Massa-alla!

Perfect baki logic! Bakis won 1965 and Kargil. But this is the first time I have heard/read a baki claim victory for 1971. Unfair didi too says the same thing. Bakis surviving to fight India another day is considered a victory by Baki army. How well you thought sync with the Baki army! If you probe deep enough the bakis does get revealed.

BTW, I had called a similar sounding id a baki pretending to be an Indian loooong back based on another conversation. His style too was similar to yours. The only thing is this current id of your does not go that far back. That memory made me check you post trail before making the first post today on this thread.

G'nite.


Moderators, I am amazed you permit psychopaths like these on the forum. Anytime anyone does not like something, some has posted, that person is a Paki.

There is an old tradition on this forum. Slander someone by calling them a Paki, which is highly amusing. Reminds me of my 5 year old nephew who outgrew this tendency last year.

Moderators, I have a really off beat suggestion for you. MODERATE ! And there has to be some even handedness in order to MODERATE, even if the offenders are your own cuckoos !

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 23 Jun 2017 07:48

Complete ot bit given the fighting that's going on in multiple threads, I'm thinking of starting a thread 'punching bag bhasad' where people can carry on this fighting

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby deejay » 23 Jun 2017 09:16

A foreigner can have plans and can have plans about the plans. But in Afghanistan, the Afghan don't work to a plan at all. They never have. They never will. Except a small, tiny %, westerners, the Afghans don't care a fig leaf on where the next bullet comes from. They never really understood the treaty of Westphallia and the nation state concept. Good luck to those who wish to play isshtrategy with them.

Dam banao, road banao, dry fruits kharido, Mi 25s supply karo. This policy is waaayyy better than any western strategy.

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby Karthik S » 23 Jun 2017 09:25

deejay wrote:A foreigner can have plans and can have plans about the plans. But in Afghanistan, the Afghan don't work to a plan at all. They never have. They never will. Except a small, tiny %, westerners, the Afghans don't care a fig leaf on where the next bullet comes from. They never really understood the treaty of Westphallia and the nation state concept. Good luck to those who wish to play isshtrategy with them.

Dam banao, road banao, dry fruits kharido, Mi 25s supply karo. This policy is waaayyy better than any western strategy.


+1, eloquently put.

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby pankajs » 23 Jun 2017 10:31

Rudradev wrote:That is EXACTLY what he is. On the J&K thread he has proposed giving away Indian territory in a "second partition of India", and provided all sorts of loud-mouthed, feeble-minded arguments to justify his treasonous proposal as somehow "strategic".


IF Bakis loosing territory is termed a victory for them perhaps gaining territory would be termed as defeat. So India should defeat bakistan by giving more and more territory.

OR, IF loss of territory is counted as success then perhaps loss of Indian territory could be counted as India's success.

Either ways, the logic is the epitome of bakiness. Now I am not calling anyone a *baki* just pointing out the bakiness of the logic here.

BTW, as this is an Afghanistan focused thread, The bakis should lose/give away territory up to the Indus river to Afghanistan and claim victory on that front too.
Last edited by pankajs on 23 Jun 2017 10:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby Karthik S » 23 Jun 2017 10:35

Regarding territory and bakis, Maroof Raza said in a show that all such artificial entities have a life span of 70 80 years, such as the mighty USSR. How long it's been since the creation of a state of mind (as Tarek Fatah says) called bakistan?

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby Yagnasri » 23 Jun 2017 11:07

Is India not a player in Afghan affairs in reality? Yes, others can make plans and keep India out of it, but such keeping out will only give freedom to India to make its own plans to make mess out of it. Did we not supported non pakthusn against Talibads before? A significant number of non paktun fellows in the north of the country. some 40+% of the total country population. Taliban was almost entirely pakthun. Has it changed from that? I am not sure. Power in Kabul needed to be shared between the warlords of all these tribes without which there will be bloodshed once again. I do not see Taliban sharing power with anyone do not belong to their tribe. Will they be loyal to their Paki masters as before more particularly when Pakis are killing pakthuns in their thousands now? Remember Afghans never recognised Durand line. The fun begins if they reopen the issue and wants then tribal brothers to join then in Afghanistan.

Chinese investments and mining will be dependent on putting people on the ground. Including armed forces for security purpose. No jobs for locals and no benefits for locals and Chinese living in closed townships.

Does anything think it is all going to work as per the 11 point plan even with all these things and we will be out of the game entirely?

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby pankajs » 23 Jun 2017 11:14

We don't even know if there is such a plan. This is more likely than not a figment of someones imagination.

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby Rudradev » 23 Jun 2017 17:53

pankajs wrote:We don't even know if there is such a plan. This is more likely than not a figment of someones imagination.

I agree completely :D

The best tip-off was the bit about it coming from a "reliable source in Langley" . That reminded me of the movie "Jaane Bhi Do Yaaron":

Sweezerland ka cake hai. Thhoda khao, thhoda pheko
:rotfl:

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 24 Jun 2017 19:16

Karthik S wrote:Regarding territory and bakis, Maroof Raza said in a show that all such artificial entities have a life span of 70 80 years, such as the mighty USSR. How long it's been since the creation of a state of mind (as Tarek Fatah says) called bakistan?

Would count the current age from 71 before that they're planning to build a highway passing through Agra linking East and West. If wishes were horses, Pakistan would still be riding donkeys

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Re: Afghanistan News & Discussion - April 2016

Postby DrRatnadip » 25 Jun 2017 17:36

http://m.timesofindia.com/world/south-a ... 309625.cms

KABUL: At least 10 policemen were killed and four others injured on Saturday night when Taliban militants attacked a checkpost near India-made Salma dam in Afghanistan's Herat province.


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