Bharat Rakshak Forum Announcement

Hello Everyone,

A warm welcome back to the Bharat Rakshak Forum.

Important Notice: Due to a corruption in the BR forum database we regret to announce that data records relating to some of our registered users have been lost. We estimate approx. 500 user details are deleted.

To ease the process of recreating the user IDs we request members that have previously posted on the BR forums to recognise and identify their posts, once the posts are identified please contact the BRF moderator team by emailing BRF Mod Team with your post details.

The mod team will be able to update your username, email etc. so that the user history can be maintained.

Unfortunately for members that have never posted or have had all their posts deleted i.e. users that have 0 posts, we will be unable to recreate your account hence we request that you re-register again.

We apologise for any inconvenience caused and thank you for your understanding.

Regards,
Seetal

India-US relations: News and Discussions III

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
arshyam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2615
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby arshyam » 01 Apr 2017 19:52

JwalaMukhi wrote:Balbir Punj's open letter to US lawmakers is very similar to previous letter to US lawmakers regarding Modi visa, albeit with bonafide intent. There is mistaken belief in the SDRE thinking that appealing to people who are in forefront pushing "conversions" as their raison deter, will somehow make them abandon and turn a new leaf. It is by design a feature to 'spread the word' by hook or crook, and not an anomaly or bug in the system.

I don't think this was as much an appeal to US lawmakers as it is to raise awareness within India. I mean, who in the US reads TNIE? It's just that this NGO-conversion nexus isn't whispered by a select few anymore, but gaining mainstream traction. Every little bit helps in spreading awareness.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7532
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby UlanBatori » 02 Apr 2017 01:57

On that note, here is another article. The question that came along with it was (colorized for TV by UBCN):
Had this been written by a sdre, would people pay attention?
Good point on reading habits and prejudices of sdres onlee. No url, sorry. Also, not posting title, it may get me in trouble. (dhoti-shiver!!!)

Article by Maria Wirth

Though I have lived in India for a long time, there are still issues here that I find hard to understand. For example, why do so many educated Indians become agitated when India is referred to as a Hindu country? The majority of Indians are Hindus. India is special because of its ancient Hindu tradition. Westerners are drawn to India because of Hinduism. Why then is there this resistance by many Indians to acknowledge the Hindu roots of their country? Why do some people even give the impression that an India which valued those roots would be dangerous? Don’t they know better?

This attitude is strange for two reasons. First, those educated Indians seem to have a problem only with “Hindu” India, but not with “Muslim” or “Christian” countries. Germany, for example, is a secular country, and only 59 percent of the population are registered with the two big Christian churches (Protestant and Catholic). Nevertheless, the country is bracketed under “Christian countries” and no one objects. Angela Merkel, the Chancellor, stressed recently the Christian roots of Germany and urged the population “to go back to Christian values.” In 2012 she postponed her trip to the G-8 summit to make a public address on Katholikentag, “Catholics Day.” Two major political parties carry Christian in their name, including Angela Merkel’s Christian Democratic Union.

Germans are not agitated that Germany is called a Christian country, though I actually would understand if they were. After all, the history of the Church is appalling. The so-called success story of Christianity depended greatly on tyranny. “Convert or die” were the options given—not only some five hundred years ago to the indigenous population in America, but also in Germany, 1,200 years ago, when the emperor Karl the Great ordered the death sentence for refusal of baptism in his newly conquered realms. This provoked his advisor Alkuin to comment: “One can force them to baptism, but how to force them to believe?”

Those times, when one’s life was in danger for dissenting with the dogmas of Christianity, are thankfully over. Today many in the West do dissent and are leaving the Church in a steady stream. They are disgusted with the less-than-holy behavior of Church officials and they also can’t believe in the dogmas, for example that “Jesus is the only way” and that God sends all those who don’t accept this to hell.

The second reason why I can’t understand the resistance to associate India with Hinduism is that Hinduism is in a different category from the Abrahamic religions. Its history, compared to Christianity and Islam, was undoubtedly the least violent as it spread in ancient times by convincing arguments and not by force. It is not a belief system that demands blind acceptance of dogmas and the suspension of one’s intelligence. On the contrary, Hinduism encourages using one’s intelligence to the hilt. It is an enquiry into truth based on a refined character and intellect. It comprises a huge body of ancient literature, not only regarding dharma and philosophy, but also regarding music, architecture, dance, science, astronomy, economics, politics, etc. If Germany or any other Western country had this kind of literary treasure, it would be so proud and highlight its greatness on every occasion. When I discovered the Upanishads, for example, I was stunned. Here was expressed in clear terms what I intuitively had felt to be true, but could not have expressed clearly. Brahman is not partial; it is the invisible, indivisible essence in everything. Everyone gets again and again a chance to discover the ultimate truth and is free to choose his way back to it. Helpful hints are given but not imposed.

In my early days in India I thought every Indian knew and valued his tradition. Slowly I realized I was wrong. The British colonial masters had been successful in not only weaning away many of the elite from their ancient tradition but even making them despise it. It helped that the British-educated class could no longer read the original Sanskrit texts and believed what the British told them. This lack of knowledge and the brainwashing by the British education may be the reason why many so-called “modern” Indians are against anything Hindu. They don’t realize the difference between Western religions that have to be believed (or at least professed) blindly, and which discourage, if not forbid, their adherents to think on their own, and the multi-layered Hindu Dharma which gives freedom and encourages using one’s intelligence.

Many of the Indian educated class do not realize that those who dream of imposing Christianity or Islam on this vast country will applaud them for denigrating Hindu Dharma, because this creates a vacuum where Western ideas can easier gain a foothold. At the same time, many Westerners, including staunch Christians, know the value of Hindu culture and surreptitiously appropriate insights from the vast Indian knowledge system, drop the original Hindu source and present it either as their own or make it look as if these insights had already been known in the West. As the West appropriates valuable and exclusive Hindu assets, what it leaves behind is deemed inferior. Unwittingly, these Indians are helping what Rajiv Malhotra of Infinity Foundation calls the digestion of Dharma civilization into Western universalism. That which is being digested, a deer for example, in this case Hindu Dharma, disappears whereas the digester (a tiger) becomes stronger.

If only missionaries denigrated Hindu Dharma, it would not be so bad, as they clearly have an agenda which discerning Indians would detect. But sadly, Indians with Hindu names assist them because they wrongly believe Hinduism is inferior to Western religions. They belittle everything Hindu instead of getting thorough knowledge. As a rule, they know little about their tradition except what the British have told them, i.e., that the major features are the caste system and idol worship. They don’t realize that India would gain, not lose, if it solidly backed its profound and all-inclusive Hindu tradition. The Dalai Lama said some time ago that, as a youth in Lhasa, he had been deeply impressed by the richness of Indian thought. “India has great potential to help the world,” he added.

When will the Westernized Indian elite realize it?

~ Maria Wirth (freelance writer who has lived in India for the past 33 years)

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7532
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby UlanBatori » 02 Apr 2017 02:01

Of course I can answer the leading pooch:
why do so many educated Indians become agitated when India is referred to as a Hindu country?

Because those references are done with one and only one intent: to claim that in yindia, Other Commyoonities have no rights. Like in Islamic Slums or so-called "modern" Christian countries such as Russia. Maybe Brazil and Argentina too except I don't hear any sdres from there - probably No Freedom Aphter Sbeech as the paki jarnail said.

CRamS
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5977
Joined: 07 Oct 2006 20:54
Contact:

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby CRamS » 02 Apr 2017 05:22

why do so many educated Indians become agitated when India is referred to as a Hindu country?


Because, at least up until recently, many educated Indians felt a sense of shame identifying as a Hindu given the colonial narrative that Hinduism is backward, oppressive, against women's rights, ritualistic, cow worshiping etc. There is a proud Hindu American Prof in NYC, Vishwa Adluri, whose talk I attended and he showed this dichotomy. Us proud Hindus, when we think of Hinduism think of Philosophy of oneness, notion of self realization, the goal of life is the realize the nature of the Brahman within, Yoga, holistic health etc etc. Most westerners who control the discourse on the other hand only and obsessively focus on the above negative traits. And deracinated educated Indians suffer from an inferiority complex on that account and hence become agitated when they are referred to as Hindu.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7532
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby UlanBatori » 02 Apr 2017 06:53

Speak 4 urself. When I think Hindu, I think Vada and Paper dosa.

sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3451
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby sanjaykumar » 02 Apr 2017 07:20

CRamS wrote:
why do so many educated Indians become agitated when India is referred to as a Hindu country?


Because, at least up until recently, many educated Indians felt a sense of shame identifying as a Hindu given the colonial narrative that Hinduism is backward, oppressive, against women's rights, ritualistic, cow worshiping etc. There is a proud Hindu American Prof in NYC, Vishwa Adluri, whose talk I attended and he showed this dichotomy. Us proud Hindus, when we think of Hinduism think of Philosophy of oneness, notion of self realization, the goal of life is the realize the nature of the Brahman within, Yoga, holistic health etc etc. Most westerners who control the discourse on the other hand only and obsessively focus on the above negative traits. And deracinated educated Indians suffer from an inferiority complex on that account and hence become agitated when they are referred to as Hindu.



The problem is lack of symmetry, that 'Hindu' reportage is never on the sons of Ham, the witch burnings, the Jew killings, the multifarious genocides and enslavements, the preposterous and repulsive transubstantiation, the Christian ethics that expropriated continents for the one true god, the ridiculous religious beliefs of Blacks in their oppressors' borrowed gods. The one god but the problem of trinity, the borrowings from Buddhism of a revealed religion, the omnipotent god who can't save anybody from an equally omnipotent devil.


I have no problem with people being offended by Hinduism, Churchill's beastly religion; but please do me the courtesy of allowing me to be repelled by yours.


When the average Indian made in a lifetime what the average Christian spends in a month, when the making of a sewing machine in India was progress and the IMF was the true maker of policy, the above was not inexplicable. What is the reason currently?

sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3451
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby sanjaykumar » 02 Apr 2017 07:29

Having said that, it doesn't help that a human being was lynched recently for killing a cow and that there wasn't any particular outrage over it that I know of.

darshan
BRFite
Posts: 377
Joined: 28 Jan 2008 04:16

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby darshan » 02 Apr 2017 07:38

Not to offend you but personally I hold cow to higher value than human and there have been many episodes of human killing human and there have not been any outrage over it. It is all from the perspective of valuation. People get killed for sketching islamic gods and that is tolerated. I have seen many in US who are not muslims defend muslims killing others over cartoons due to hurt religious feelings. Killing cows is also the same to many and hurting religious feelings.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7532
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby UlanBatori » 02 Apr 2017 07:44

The killing of the cow or the killer? JUST ASKING... don't shoot! :eek:

sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3451
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby sanjaykumar » 02 Apr 2017 07:46

That is one way of looking at it. However, in any civilised society man is god. Hindus, if anyone, should have absolutely no problem with this concept. Shankaracharya was explicit and Vivekananda was the most recent exponent of this profound message.

To answer my own query, Hindus have a problem; we see god in them, they see the devil in us.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7532
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby UlanBatori » 02 Apr 2017 08:08

man is god.

Hmm! As long as you admit that wimmens are God^2. :shock: In a truly civilized society it may be that the wanton killing of innocent creatures is abhorrent and those who do that forfeit the right to life. No comment on whether mosquitos and cockroaches are innocent. Also on whether in the case in question the person subsequently murdered was in fact guilty, and if so whether he was planning to eat the cow to stave off starvation. In any event, his crime if any merited at most a jail term - not even that if he was Salman Khan, accused and pretty-much caught red-handed after wantonly killing a deer for sport (he wasn't exactly short of money to buy food).

arshyam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2615
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby arshyam » 02 Apr 2017 09:44

sanjaykumar wrote:Having said that, it doesn't help that a human being was lynched recently for killing a cow and that there wasn't any particular outrage over it that I know of.

The problem is saar, when we argue back like you did very well in your previous post, we immediately tend to turn around look inwards, as you did with this post. What is the need for that? Perhaps coming from an innate Hindu trait of seeking the truth all the time?*

I don't see any amriki type do the same about slavery, racism or recently BLM when pontificating to us.

The cow related issue you mention is a problem, but is an internal matter of India and not to be mentioned in the same breath. JMT and all that.

*Nothing wrong with it per se, but we need to discern when to do that and when not to. The western tradition of rhetoric is not based on seeking the truth. So when we argue rhetorically, we should use only rhetoric. Truth will work only when both sides want to seek it.

sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3451
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby sanjaykumar » 02 Apr 2017 10:33

I don't see any amriki type do the same about slavery, racism or recently BLM when pontificating to us.



I am happy to report that in fact post Christian Westerners as well as secular Jews are very different from the bible thumpers who seek to harvest souls in India.

I must admit I have essentially have no sympathy for Islam, but during a discussion, my interlocutor did point out that those who declaim smug views on Islamic violence would do well to recall the German 'Gott mit uns' used in European violence not too long ago. The gentlemen was a Canadian of Scotch extraction.
An American Jewish engineer once told me he can't sleep nights for his country's actions abroad. Others have acknowledged the history of extermination of the native populations of North America.

This is what education, free thinking and a liberal milieu can achieve. No body is beyond persuasion.

LokeshC
BRFite
Posts: 666
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 04:36

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby LokeshC » 02 Apr 2017 11:40

There is no post christian west. It exists only in San Fran like areas.

Wake me up when a non christian becomes POTUS

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14976
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby chetak » 02 Apr 2017 12:21

their enlightened "doctrines" seem to have led their country right up the garden path.



twitter

U.S. Army Lt. Gen. Ord told an Indian audience in 1995 that the U.S. Army wasn't interested in learning about counterinsurgency.

Image

arshyam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2615
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby arshyam » 02 Apr 2017 12:32

sanjaykumar wrote:I don't see any amriki type do the same about slavery, racism or recently BLM when pontificating to us.

I am happy to report that in fact post Christian Westerners as well as secular Jews are very different from the bible thumpers who seek to harvest souls in India.

My post was based on my experiences living and working in the 'liberal' west coast. Sure, there are a few genuine people willing to learn about others' experiences, especially when in smaller groups, but they are nowhere close to a critical mass to shape opinions. The battle for school textbooks in California is a case in point. Sadly, even the average "liberal" west coast software type is mostly interested in football, vacations and some hobby like skiing/camping, etc. Some do talk about politics, but only local issues. Many a time, I have witnessed an abrupt change of conv when I mentioned anything from our PoV.

Zynda
BRFite
Posts: 1105
Joined: 07 Jan 2006 00:37
Location: J4

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby Zynda » 02 Apr 2017 14:48

Posting in Full here as this definitely affects a lot of US travels for Indian Nationals.

US border agents are doing 'digital strip searches'. Here's how to protect yourself

Last month, the US-born Nasa engineer Sidd Bikkannavar was pulled into additional screening when he entered the US after a two-week vacation in Chile. He was taken into a room and told to hand over his phone and passcode. He explained that the phone belonged to Nasa and contained important work-related data, but immigration officials insisted and handed him a document explaining that the penalty for refusing was “detention”. He eventually complied and they took his phone into a another room for 30 minutes before allowing him to leave.

Bikkannavar never found out why he was chosen for additional screening. He had not travelled to any of the Muslim-majority countries included in Trump’s travel ban.

Cases like this are exploding. According to data from the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), searches of mobile phones by border agents grew from fewer than 5,000 in 2015 to 25,000 in 2016 (DHS told the Guardian that there was an anomaly in the 2016 data, but did not reveal how that changes these figures). Anecdotal evidence indicates that searches have risen further in the wake of the election of Donald Trump.

Border agents carry out these invasive searches without any warrant or even suspicion, going through text messages, social media accounts and photos, while asking the owner about the people they are interacting with, their religious affiliations and travel patterns.

Experts credit the rise in searches to the increase in technical capacity at the border.

“They are building capacity to routinely search as many devices as possible,” said Alex Abdo, senior staff attorney at the Knight First Amendment Institute at Columbia University.

The lack of transparency over the process has led the free speech watchdog to file a freedom of information lawsuit, seeking to obtain the DHS’s rules for “suspicionless” searches of mobile devices. The institute wants to know what exactly immigration officials are looking for and how they decide who to target.

“There’s a basic privacy concern with forcing people to be subjected to a digital strip-search simply for having crossed the nation’s borders,” said Abdo.

“People are incredibly vulnerable at the border,” she said. “People are coming off 20-hour flights, completely jet-lagged and stuck in this limbo land of the border and there’s an armed agent in front of you preventing you from coming into the country.”

In addition to going through people’s smartphones in person, US Customs and Border Protection (CBP) and US Immigration and Customs Enforcement (Ice) can also confiscate devices for a further forensic examination. In this case agents can make full copies of all of the data on the phone, which can be shared with other government agencies. DHS has published test results from dozens of tools it can use to extract data from phones.

This gives rise to business concerns, particularly if devices used for work contain confidential information that could be copied and potentially leaked.

“If someone works for a company in Silicon Valley and has trade secrets on their work laptop, we recommend they speak with their supervisor at work before they travel,” said Sinha.

What if individuals refuse to give over their passwords? Depending on your immigration status, that could mean being turned away from the United States.

But “US citizens and returning green card holders can’t be denied entry for refusing to provide a password,” said Esha Bhandari, a staff attorney at the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU).

If your device is seized and if your goal is to prevent border officials from accessing your data, experts recommend using encryption and a strong password.

However, it’s important to keep in mind that failure to cooperate can create practical problems. Immigration officials can detain people for hours of secondary questioning and seize their device for weeks. “They can make your life very inconvenient every time you travel,” said Abdo.

For those entering the country on a visa or visa waiver, refusal to comply with border officials can mean being turned away or even having your immigration status revoked.

So what can people do to protect their personal data?

“The ideal thing to do is to leave your main phone and laptop at home and go across the border with a burner phone,” said Sinha, referring to a simple device that doesn’t have your email or social media apps on it.

For those who can’t do that, experts suggest deleting data and apps from devices.

“With so much of our data now stored in the cloud rather than on the local device, apps have become the prime conduit to our data,” explained Paul Lipman, the Silicon Valley-based CEO of the security company Bullguard.

He offers the example of the secure cloud storage app Dropbox, where he keeps personal and business documents. To prevent these types of documents from being searched by border agents, a smartphone owner can simply delete the app and download it again once they are in the country. “A hassle? Yes. But hardly a big one.”

A CBP spokeswoman said the searches affected less than one hundredth of 1% of travelers to the US and that they were “often integral to a determination of an individual’s intentions upon entry”.

“They are critical to the detection of evidence relating to terrorism and other national security matters, human and bulk cash smuggling, contraband, and child *****. They can also reveal information about financial and commercial crimes, such as those relating to copyright, trademark and export control violations,” she said.

chola
BRFite
Posts: 1103
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby chola » 02 Apr 2017 15:41

darshan wrote:Not to offend you but personally I hold cow to higher value than human and there have been many episodes of human killing human and there have not been any outrage over it. It is all from the perspective of valuation. People get killed for sketching islamic gods and that is tolerated. I have seen many in US who are not muslims defend muslims killing others over cartoons due to hurt religious feelings. Killing cows is also the same to many and hurting religious feelings.


I am very sorry but I have eaten steaks (medium rare -- red center) since college.

Killing PEOPLE over religious hurt feelings is dark age shit that I condemn in Islam, Hinduism, Scientology or any other religion.

Thank God, this type of thinking is not prevalent in Tamil Nadu. I'll make sure to stay away from your neck of the woods the next time I visit the homeland.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7532
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby UlanBatori » 02 Apr 2017 16:30

Killing cows is against the law, and in many Gawd-fiyaring Free Nations such as Texas or Kansas or Bihar, if u violate the law u die. Watch "Marshall Dillon" for explanation pls. That's why they have "Boot Hill". A landfill where they pile the dead bodies and boots stick out of the weeds.

Now let us analyze this gem:
A CBP spokeswoman said the searches affected less than one hundredth of 1% of travelers to the US and that they were “often integral to a determination of an individual’s intentions upon entry”.

“They are critical to the detection of evidence relating to terrorism and other national security matters, human and bulk cash smuggling, contraband, and child *****. They can also reveal information about financial and commercial crimes, such as those relating to copyright, trademark and export control violations,” she said.


Let's see the misuse of the word "often". IOW, she is saying:
We harass a whole bunch of people, and SOMETIMES this is based on common sense.

The NASA engineer had no "intentions upon entry" that they needed to "determine" - he is a US citizen. So why was he stopped? The Constitution does not allow police to harass law-abiding people based on the idea that "sometimes" (meaning of "often") the polis are idiots who cannot figure out that a citizen is allowed to return to the country unless specifically exiled by some Constitutional process.

Then she goes into "evidence relating to terrorism and other national security matters". So she is using the opportunity to slander innocents.

Then she gets into "human and bulk cash smuggling". Through a CELLPHONE? LAPTOP COMPUTER?

Now we get into "financial and commercial crimes, such as those relating to copyright, trademark violations" When did these become the province of the Customs and Border Control?

"and export control" OK, so that is the error that the Govt made in giving these people authority to search without warrants. That's what she is using to rationalize the general sweetness of all the other prejudices that their officers have.

The way to summarize her statement is:

"Most of the time, the people stopped and harassed by our Border Goons are completely innocent, and hence this is a gross violation of the Constitution. But hey, we need something to pass the time."

I will tell you why the NASA guys was stopped. He looked non-white. So when they found out he works for NASA JPL they looked for some way to get him fired. A "conviction" for any of these wide array of things would mean the end of his professional life and these worthies know that. It was racism, simple.

JwalaMukhi
BRFite
Posts: 1629
Joined: 28 Mar 2007 18:27

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby JwalaMukhi » 02 Apr 2017 18:38

Would like to provide a quick synopsis of legendary story narrated and familiar to most people in Tamil Nadu. Especially, since this is about a Chola king from suryavamsham, set in Thiruvarur, TN.

This is about Manu Needhi Cholan who was the king of this chola nadu, who had a law in his land to provide equal rights to people and animals (inclusive of cows). To beifly summarize,the kings own son, prince, was a charioteer and was driving his chariot too fast along the road and a calf jumped in front of his chariot and was killed. The mother cow who was accompanying, was grief stricken witnessing the painful death of the calf, demands justice from the king by ringing the bell. After due deliberations, the King metes out death sentence to the prince, in the same manner as experienced by calf and is personally carried out by him. Now, there are other upteem examples of similar stories and narratives, especially with Cholas, example include Sibi chakravarthi and the pigeon incident.

The point one would like to highlight, since times immemorial, hinduism, is especially drives home the point that man is nothing but one more cog in the wheel of all living things (symbiosis) and there is no hierarchy when it comes to valuing one type of life over other. This has been the thinking of TN people.
But now days, in TN, there is no thinking. TN is slowly morphing into borrowing Abrahamic thinking, about all other animals (including wimmen), fish, cow, goat, etc., exists solely for the pleasure of Man. That is, it is hierarchial system among living beings. Surface level thinking and value to life generates these kind of disregard to other life forms. That is classic example of Evanjihadis/jihadis influence.

Now, in land of milk and honey there is a law that ones Fido, or kitty cat or for that matter Horse cannot become one's dinner, breakfast or lunch. People understand that. But holy cow... what about cow. must be lowly third worlders worship them. Slice and dice them into neat geometrical shapes and house them in cool refrigerated boxes.

Even abrahamic based justice system once in a while dwadles and grants divine Ganga into a person, so justice can be meted out. Well something to ponder about, even for TN people when they get out influence of Evanjihadis, and start drawing inspiration from their own Lemurian history.

sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3451
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby sanjaykumar » 02 Apr 2017 21:05

To be strictly rational, I have to agree. Why stop at the cow, there are plenty of people dying everyday who would preserve well with some refrigeration.

sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3451
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby sanjaykumar » 02 Apr 2017 22:39

Duplicate
Last edited by sanjaykumar on 02 Apr 2017 22:40, edited 1 time in total.

sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3451
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby sanjaykumar » 02 Apr 2017 22:40

sanjaykumar wrote:
LokeshC wrote:There is no post christian west. It exists only in San Fran like areas.

Wake me up when a non christian becomes POTUS



"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."

Thomas Jefferson Third President of the United States

Of course Obama was probably less of a Christian than the proverbial Chinaman.

sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3451
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby sanjaykumar » 02 Apr 2017 22:48

Hell, Jefferson is so damned articulate and sensible that his quotes merit broad dissemination and study.

https://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 58670
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: X,L,S,VHF band radars fully on

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby Singha » 02 Apr 2017 23:11

TN is slowly morphing into borrowing Abrahamic thinking, about all other animals (including wimmen), fish, cow, goat, etc., exists solely for the pleasure of Man. That is, it is hierarchial system among living beings. Surface level thinking and value to life generates these kind of disregard to other life forms. That is classic example of Evanjihadis/jihadis influence.


^^ this fake humanist motto of humans as a middleware layer self proclaimed between god and other animals, the treatment meted out to animals in western meat farming and humans of america greater value than humans of a poor place like Afghanistan is mentioned and exposed in the book homo deus by hariri

sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3451
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby sanjaykumar » 03 Apr 2017 00:11

Animal cruelty is deeply ingrained in the ethos.

http://globalanimalwelfare.org/top-10-a ... -in-spain/

LokeshC
BRFite
Posts: 666
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 04:36

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby LokeshC » 03 Apr 2017 00:27

sanjaykumar wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:

"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."

Thomas Jefferson Third President of the United States

Of course Obama was probably less of a Christian than the proverbial Chinaman.


:rotfl: Very sophisticated but of absolutely no substance. Let me ask that question with a little bit more sophistication : Wake me up when a someone who is self declared non christian becomes POTUS.

"Thou art entitled to your ignorance as i am entitled to mine " -- Lokesh Chandra, a random nobody on an internet forum.

sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3451
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby sanjaykumar » 03 Apr 2017 00:44

Move the goal posts-no problem with me, sire.

sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3451
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby sanjaykumar » 03 Apr 2017 00:58

“Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man.”

Jefferson


“The Bible is not my Book and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long complicated statements of Christian dogma.”

Lincoln


When questioned, he replied that “he had not given it deep study, and was unprepared to express an opinion. He intimated that he saw no use of devoting any special thought to theology at so late a day, and that he was prepared to take his chances with the millions of people who went before him.”

On Grant, on his death bed


“I do not believe in the divinity of Christ, and there are many other of the postulates of the orthodox creed to which I cannot subscribe.”

Taft

LokeshC
BRFite
Posts: 666
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 04:36

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby LokeshC » 03 Apr 2017 01:02

Yeah. Freemasons, puritans, quakers and all that. I am aware of all of that, the point was rhetorical which I admit was my mistake, but the intention was never the specific thing that you are going on about to begin with, which might bring you back into talking about the next topic: Goal Posts.

Speaking of goal posts: I guess we both were playing in two different football fields. Its that wierd Harry Potterish experience that goes like so: We might be on the same page...but of a different book.

My anecdotal experience is, for some reason, vastly different than the anecdotal experiences you describe. Whatever floats your boat, mate. I am moving on :)

sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3451
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby sanjaykumar » 03 Apr 2017 01:05

Yes I thought you might.

vnms
BRFite
Posts: 108
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 01:56

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby vnms » 03 Apr 2017 01:10

Were those quotes made by the former presidents while campaigning for the office or while in office?

LokeshC
BRFite
Posts: 666
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 04:36

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby LokeshC » 03 Apr 2017 01:15

Here is the thing: The el-brezidente Jefferson was in deep doodoo at a point of time for suspicion of being an atheist (this was barely a 100 years after the Salem Witch trials), he had to then get some help from a Clergy and publish some thesis on the life and principles of Christ :mrgreen: (the name of which I am unable to recall), to get into the good books of the people.

My point was the people, were and ARE christian. The values and ethos were and are Christian. They are fundamentally mono-theistic in their values. Those who are not are called Hippies, Wiccans, etc to this day. It may change sometime in the future, but who knows.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7532
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Apr 2017 01:52

Heathain. But given the title of the thread, I hope you two or three (and anyone else) please think up a coherent thesis on why India, while welcoming and celebrating Xtians and Xtianity, is dead-set against Conversion. This is extremely important. I didn't know that MKG etc had come out with strong statements against Conversion. Very important ammo. The USCIRF is going to be very much in the news given the extremist elements in the New Dispensation who are not going to be any better than the Prior Dispensation.

Converting the USCIRF into a useful institution will be a huge breakthrough in US-India relations, at least on par with the Jaswant Singh achievement of reversing the Nuclear Apartheid, and the BRF achievement (yes, believe it!!) of reversing the 1999 anti-India unanimity worldwide on "Cash More". It's doable (I mean civilizing the USCIRF) but it will take an intense, well-thought-out war of reason.

sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3451
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby sanjaykumar » 03 Apr 2017 01:59

Conversions are legitimate when proof of salvation is demonstrable. Otherwise they are human rights violations.

LokeshC
BRFite
Posts: 666
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 04:36

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby LokeshC » 03 Apr 2017 02:06

UB saar,

The moment we "defend" against something, we are validating the opponent. In a friendly debate where intentions are good it would be ok to do so. However USCIRF is not looking for a healthy, friendly debate. They are waiting for us to defend against their position and the moment we do so they will turn around and say to their intended audience :- "See, I told you so!". It wont matter what we throw at them and how airtight the case is.

The only way to win here is to turn the game around and set THEM up for defending something that they are (or even arent) doing. Like for example: Did one of them get funds from Saudi Barbaria? I am sure the Barbarians have a finger in a bunch of peaches in there. That would be a much better ammo IMHO.

This is a dirty fight, and if we decide to fight, it has to be dirty.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7532
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Apr 2017 02:28

The Pakis were not in for a healthy, friendly debate in 1999 or any time either. We didn't get through that by being "defensive". :) Just have to keep thinking ahead and VERY lovingly research them better than they research us.

Dipanker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2652
Joined: 14 May 2002 11:31

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby Dipanker » 03 Apr 2017 02:40

White man shouts 'go back to Lebanon' to Sikh-American girl

NEW YORK: A Sikh-American girl was harassed on a subway train here when a white man, mistaking her to be from the Middle East, allegedly shouted "go back to Lebanon" and "you don't belong in this country," the latest in a series of hate crimes against people of South-Asian origin.
Rajpreet Heir was taking the subway train to a friend's birthday party in Manhattan this month when the white man began shouting at her, according to a report in the New York Times.

prahaar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2684
Joined: 15 Oct 2005 04:14

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby prahaar » 03 Apr 2017 02:48

I have been yelled at "Go back to Pakistan" many a times in NYC/NJ area 15-20 years back. This is not new, does not make it any less racist. Khan MSM has developed newfound sensitivity. Is this Trump effect?

Gus
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7653
Joined: 07 May 2005 02:30

Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Postby Gus » 03 Apr 2017 03:08

Having said that, it doesn't help that a human being was lynched recently for killing a cow and that there wasn't any particular outrage over it that I know of.


sorry for being late to the party - but the charge was (and I am not condoning lynching and vigilantism in any manner for any crime) -

it was somebody else's cow.

I understand that there's multiple stories about whether it was really cow meat found in his house.

But this is not like somebody was eating steak and mob lynched him.

Are people that removed from reality in India in what happens to pickpockets and thieves etc getting caught in rural areas?


Return to “Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Atmavik, g.sarkar, Iyersan, Jayan Menon, L Ram, Swaroop and 50 guests