India-US relations: News and Discussions III

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vera_k
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by vera_k »

ramana wrote:The H1B issue is complicated.
It has two streams: F1 students transitioning to Green Card using H1B visa. This process gets delayed due to the quota system for green cards.
Second stream is IT outsourcing by software companies from India. This causes most visible heart burn and leads to H1B visa clampdown.

I think the demand for the second stream will reduce with BPO, Cloud storage and better Internet access in India.

Nadella is pushing for cloud storage in India.
3rd stream are the captive offshore development centers used to recruit offshore and funnel to USA after a couple of years. All streams are going to reduce due to automation. Cloud storage moves are not connected. It is being built all over the world because governments are imposing laws that data cannot leave their country. Plus India has to have local cloud as laws of physics cannot be overcome.

If India can improve on education either using own universities or allowing foreign universities, F1->H1B can be eliminated, and it can be dealt with purely as trade issue.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by ramana »

On last point an initiative is underway after NaMo came to power to create a central research funding process similar to US uty system. its led f=by a former Uty professor(RTI).

And thanks for clarifying the issues.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by NRao »

CRamS
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by CRamS »

First of all, let Trump deal with India and then India can decide how to deal with Trump. At the moment, India is not a priority, good or bad, for Trump and Co. The attacks against Indian is a concern, but anybody with a basic 101 understanding of US will tell you that these attacks are the result of racist undercurrents deeply embedded among whites. Of course, under Trump they become overt, but its wrong to assume that all this happening only because of Trump. And in any case, the lure of green-back is so strong that I doubt anybody will stop coming to US because of these attacks. But I am sure India is protesting, and it must, and show US the mirror. Other than that, its a pretty boring relationship.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by Singha »

> The much maligned Bandit jis reign provided orders of magnitude more opportunities.

yes the pace of expansion and growth in the govt STEM complex esp pure sciences must have drastically slowed at some point .... and most of those who wanted to do phd in sciences continued to migrate abroad for good .... after a long hiatus I guess the upliftment of some big univs in science and IISERs under MMS was perhaps the first big movement? the 5 yr integrated MSC at the IITs which had the infra and staff was always kept at very token numbers.

have heard 'there is a large floating population of indian science post-docs' in europe whose eventual goal was massa but due to lack of tenure track or even postdocs in massa due to funding and size issues they are marking time in EU.

massa first stripped EU of its intellectual capital using the advantage of post and pre WW2 chaos. then stripped india and is now stripping china. and the bastra haran of EU continues - EU academics would prefer the large budgets and more freedom of tenure track in massa only.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by habal »

If Indian Americans want to seriously settle in US then they need to encourage children into relatively lower paying yet more local power jobs like police training, councillors, firemen and military. This will give them more heft and say in local affairs. You have to first take control of your streets before you can say that you have a safe neighbourhood. Until now perception and reality to some extent in big cities was USA was a police state against white assertiveness esp in CA, NY etc. In coming days this trend may subdue or reverse.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by Yagnasri »

Swarajya Mag has an article saying that in spite all the campaign slogans DT has not changed fundamental US foreign policy. While it is still early days, what are the indication we hear from DC? I looked for any indication of any change or something. But nothing. We are totally in the dark here.

Personally, I am not too much into Visa thing. I am looking at how the US-China thing and US Paki thing develop.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by TKiran »

US has serious problems at home most of it political in nature, will leave Pakistan to China. Will concentrate on bringing back work, will fail miserably and China will become middle Kingdom
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by arshyam »

From missing flights to losing life: Sikhs in the US have seen it all - By Niral Sharma, TNIE
In a suspected hate crime incident, A 39-year-old Sikh man, Deep Rai was shot and wounded outside his house by a partially- masked gunman who shouted "go back to your own country". Deep was working on his vehicle outside his home in Kent, Washington when the stranger approached. While the Kent police said that the Sikh man sustained "non life-threatening injuries", there have been several cases in the past when Sikhs, who have often been the targets of hate crimes in the US, have even lost their lives.

The first person to be victimized by hate crime in the United States after the 9/11 terrorist attacks was not a Muslim. He was a Sikh, Balbir Singh Sondhi, who was shot dead at his petrol filling station in Arizona. Sondhi was mistaken for a Muslim because of his turban. As reported in CNN, the assailant said that he wanted to "go out and shoot some towel-heads" for the actions of Osama bin Laden.

Now with President Donald Trump’s travel ban plans on citizens from Muslim-dominated countries, Sikhs in the US are a worried lot. Although Sikh migration to the country began more than 130 years ago, turban-wearing followers of the faith are routinely mistaken for Muslims, and taunted with calls like ‘Osama!’ and ‘turban heads’.

Related Article
Police search for man who shot Sikh in Seattle suburb
Trump may sign updated travel ban next week
Rights group calls for hate crime probe into latest attack on Sikh in Kent
Sikh mistaken for Muslim, abused and harassed at US store

Not just this, in one of Trump's campaigns, an Indian-origin Sikh was mistaken to be a Muslim supporter on the flyers.

Gurinder Singh Khalsa featured in the ad is a resident of Fishers city in Indiana who had immigrated to the US from India. "I am not Muslim and I am not supporting Trump," he was quoted as saying to WTHR TV channel.

With new travel rules (if implemented), the community fears a spike in cases of abuse in general and harassment at security check-ups in particular.

Transportation Security Administration (TSA) screenings have become a big issue for Sikhs in America

The Sikh Coalition, a volunteer organization, founded in response to 9/11, has received over 700 TSA complaints through their mobile app called 'Flyrights' since 2012.

Also read: Stalker’s video of Indians in US Fuels hate sentiment

Tanvir Singh, a 40-year-old Sikh American driver at the Seattle-Tacoma airport, says he and his family have faced frequent public humiliations and unwarranted screenings at airports. He says he has missed flights at least six times due to unfettered TSA screening and search practices. “I have been searched so many times that my family does not want to fly with me. My kids even refused a trip to Disneyland,” Tanvir Singh told the New Indian Express.

Once while returning from Canada, his family was searched for six hours at the border protection line. “The TSA agents refused to allow my wife to buy milk for my six-month-old son and did not even provide water for my four-year-old daughter, who began vomiting during this screening.”

On another occasion, Singh was searched and sent through the screener multiple times at the airport before a flight from Washington DC to Los Angeles. “I was then sent to a room with six to seven agents. One of them tried to touch my turban. The turban is one of the five articles of faith worn by an initiated Sikh. I requested them to allow me to remove my turban myself, yet the agents removed it while laughing at and mocking me. I missed the flight and ended up spending 14 hours at the airport.”

Tanvir Singh said people in his community have been weary of travel checks even before the Donald Trump order. “Many of my friends do not want to travel anymore even for a short distance. We are made to wait for hours and hours.”

While Trump’s travel ban order is temporarily suspended and the revised executive order is expected to be signed next week, the community fears that increased security checks at airports will see a surge in cases of abuse and humiliation.

Wanda Sanchez Day, an attorney associated with United Sikhs, a civil rights organisation, said, “We condemn the ideas embodied in the executive order issued by Donald Trump on January 27, 2017. It is a setback to progress that has been made on civil and human rights in the United States.”

The torment of Sikh community is not limited to airports. There have been hate crimes against them in several US cities. However, according to a survey by the National Sikh Campaign, a non-profit organisation, 60 per cent of Americans didn't know about their existence.

According to the Sikh Coalition, the community is “hundreds of times more likely than their fellow Americans to experience hate crimes”. There had been over 175 Anti-sikh hate crimes since 2001, it said in a report.

In January 2016, 68-year-old Gurucharan Singh Gill, who was working at a liquor store in California, was stabbed to death in broad daylight. "The local community members feel that Gill was attacked because of his skin colour and identity," Lieutenant Mindy Casto, Fresno Police Department was quoted telling a news agency.

In another incident which took place in December 2015 in Fresno, a 68-year-old man was hit by a car while he was waiting to go to work. The assailants reportedly emerged from the vehicle to attack the man and yelled, "Why are you here?"
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by arshyam »

Indian's home trashed with dog poop, hate messages in US - PTI via TNIE
NEW YORK: The home of an Indian in the US has been smeared with dog poop, eggs and hate messages, prompting the FBI to investigate the case as a possible hate crime.

The incident occurred in Colorado's Peyton town.

Hateful messages were sprawled all over the home with most of them being racial slurs aimed at the Indian homeowner who did not wish to be named, denver.cbslocal.com reported.

Related Article
Indian killing in Kansas was racially motivated: White House
Family bids adieu to slain Telugu techie Srinvas Kuchibhotla in Kansas shooting incident
Trump condemns Kansas shooting, says US stands united against hate
The Kansas killing has apparently brought out two different faces of America

"About 10 per cent of the messages were racial slur on us, 'You brown or Indian shouldn't be here' something like that," he said, adding that it was frightening.

The FBI is investigating a possible hate crime in the Southern Colorado incident that took place on February 6, the report said.

"We saw more than 50 papers stuck everywhere on our door, window, car — they smeared dog poop everywhere and they had thrown at least like 40 eggs on our walls on our ceilings, everywhere outside," the man said.

He said his neighbours came together and completely cleaned up the house for him.

Authorities believed it was the work of a group of people because of the all the damage.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by Lalmohan »

^^^ note, no mistaken identity as a-rabs or eye-ranians here... specifically indian
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by sanjaykumar »

I had no idea Sikhs had it so bad.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by Agnimitra »

While we can sympathize with innocent Muslims who become targets of White Christian discrimination and persecution, it would be helpful to first stand apart and identify who we are, and then from that position we can support the right causes.

Indians have not done enough to create a separate identity for themselves as different from other "brown" people, or even Muslim peoples. E.g., the only movies about India that became popular in the West were:
"My name is Khan and I am not a terrorist" - featuring a Muslim Indian with a Hindu wife.
"Slumdog millionnaire" - again feature Muslim-Hindu as basically the same.

Reportage on anything "Hindu" in the Western press and popular culture is typically either quaint, or negative.

Sikhs in the West usually get represented by Khalistan-sympathizers who want to distance themselves from Hinduism, and they often gravitate towards Islamic lobby groups. I've seen Sikh representatives at Iranian cultural fora. Nothing wrong with that per se, but there has to be a separate identification with an Indian identity. Sikhs should identify themselves as part of the same cultural spectrum as Buddhism (which tends to have a positive image anyway, thanks to the NE Asians) and Hinduism. Otherwise this is to be expected.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by GShankar »

Lalmohan wrote:^^^ note, no mistaken identity as a-rabs or eye-ranians here... specifically indian
Yes!!

Very important point. This needs to be researched.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by habal »

ramana
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by ramana »

I am moving all these posts to GDF.

The days admins have to see to clean up like bucket brigade :eek:
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by IndraD »

@Agnimitra
Your analogy is based on assumption that Indians will be get differential (superior?) treatment by US racist attackers if they could carve a separate identity out, this is perhaps not correct as discussed many times gut level racism will never differentiate between an Indian and a Pakistani.

Also Su Swamy has tweeted that Pk ISI could be playing mischief in US by mobilising assets to target Indians. No idea how far true.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by NRao »

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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by NRao »

I do not agree with this article, about India, but ............. one view.

Watching the big boys play
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by IndraD »

how is it that no Muslim so far has been attacked but Indians and Sikhs are at receiving end? Of course I wish every immigrant stays safe but still it doesn;t cut the ice. Many Muslims with their skull cap, beard w/o moustache appearance are easily identified.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by ramana »

Ask on Tiwtter and lets see what response we get.

I think Indians are vulnerable is the key takeaway.

Hence I say get involved in Mayor races as Chief of Police is under them.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by bharotshontan »

Hollywood has used Indian subcontinental origin people to play Arabs and Iranians in movies I think. Average American doesn't realize that Arabs are like Steve Jobs phenotype and most look no different from white-Hispanics like the multitudes of immigrants from Latin America that white-Americans are more intimately familiar with for centuries.

Beard w/o mustache is also seen in insulated white groups like Amish and other redneck/hillbilly types:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/08/ ... 34x348.jpg
http://beardstyle.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/8.jpg

These people would look like pure mullahs walking around in India. In fact back in medieval times when most mullahs in India were in fact migrants from central and west Asia, it was easy for Euro rengegades to merge themselves into the Muslim population.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by Dipanker »

IndraD wrote:how is it that no Muslim so far has been attacked but Indians and Sikhs are at receiving end? Of course I wish every immigrant stays safe but still it doesn;t cut the ice. Many Muslims with their skull cap, beard w/o moustache appearance are easily identified.
A few Muslims have been killed in hate crimes in the course of past year or so. These muslims were indistinguishable from Indians, they were Bangladeshis.

People who repeatedly advocate on the forum for Hindu Indians to project a separate identity from muslims (Bangladeshis, Pakistanis, Arabs), betray a basic understanding of how racism works.

Brown Indians are the default Arabs. To an average joe blow white supremacists most Arabs actually look white in appearance (various shades thereof ) if the accompanying womenfolks are not sporting hijab.
Last edited by Dipanker on 08 Mar 2017 01:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by sanjaykumar »

IndraD wrote:@Agnimitra
Your analogy is based on assumption that Indians will be get differential (superior?) treatment by US racist attackers if they could carve a separate identity out, this is perhaps not correct as discussed many times gut level racism will never differentiate between an Indian and a Pakistani.

Also Su Swamy has tweeted that Pk ISI could be playing mischief in US by mobilising assets to target Indians. No idea how far true.

That is not the case. The average American is not very sophisticated, probably at the same level as the average Australian. You can not expect a New York or London worldliness. They have historically been conditioned to see darker skin as a threat to their 'gains'. Indians can do much to desensitise the cognitive bias. The aim would be simple- to confirm what in reality is the case-Indians are not a threat to your wellbeing. No need for the song and dance about household income, education, engineers and doctors. We are not a threat.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by GShankar »

IndraD wrote:@Agnimitra
Your analogy is based on assumption that Indians will be get differential (superior?) treatment by US racist attackers if they could carve a separate identity out, this is perhaps not correct as discussed many times gut level racism will never differentiate between an Indian and a Pakistani.

Also Su Swamy has tweeted that Pk ISI could be playing mischief in US by mobilising assets to target Indians. No idea how far true.
Any links of the tweet? TIA
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by IndraD »

U.S. says Iraq removed from travel ban partly for fight against Islamic State. Also Iraq promises to share database on Iraqis & pre visa vetting.
But the move should also be seen in light to grant asylum or GC to those who helped US army in ongoing war. There was story of one Iraqi who gathered intelligence for US army , and was detained when he landed into US.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by Primus »

ramana wrote:
Hence I say get involved in Mayor races as Chief of Police is under them.
Been saying this for a while now. Why be a Police Chief if you can be Mayor? That's how Juice get the power. Why be an attorney when you can be the Judge?
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by IndraD »

GShankar wrote:Any links of the tweet? TIA
trying to dig out Su Swamy tweeted from what I remember.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by IndraD »

Recently, according to an internal recruitment document of the feared group which also seeks to unite the Pakistani and Afghan Taliban into a single army of terror, had reportly said that the ISIS is preparing to attack India to provoke an Armageddon-like confrontation with the US.

An investigative story published by the USA Today and reported by American Media Institute refered to a 32-page Urdu document obtained from a Pakistani citizen with connections inside the Pakistani Taliban.

"The document warns that 'preparations' for an attack in India are underway and predicts that an attack will provoke an apocalyptic confrontation with America," the report said.

"Even if the US tries to attack with all its allies, which undoubtedly it will, the ummah (Muslims) will be united, resulting in the final battle," it added.

The document was reviewed by three US intelligence officials, who said they believe the document is authentic based on its unique markings and the fact that language used to describe leaders, the writing style and religious wording match other documents from the ISIS, USA Today added.

Earlier, Swamy had expressed his pleasure in one of his tweets which he had posted after PM Modi had first time hit out at ISIS, saying global response was required to effectively combat international terrorism propagated by outfits like the Islamic State.

http://zeenews.india.com/news/india/isi ... 05265.html

some thing to the same aspect ..^
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by NRao »

preparations' for an attack in India are underway
Plays right into Trumps hand.

But, on the flip side, if it had to happen, it is more likely in a country like India. And, a nation like China would defend it in the UN too.

Silence at BRICS in India is deafening.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by Agnimitra »

IndraD wrote:@Agnimitra
Your analogy is based on assumption that Indians will be get differential (superior?) treatment by US racist attackers if they could carve a separate identity out, this is perhaps not correct as discussed many times gut level racism will never differentiate between an Indian and a Pakistani.

Also Su Swamy has tweeted that Pk ISI could be playing mischief in US by mobilising assets to target Indians. No idea how far true.
Do White christians not differentiate between a Euro and a white Turk or Chechen? I have seen Turkish Islamist outreach in the US, and believe me the "white skin advantage" they have does not outlast all the other factors in play. In today's world Westerners also differentiate Japanese from the Chinese. SWOT propaganda trickles down. There is definitely plenty of space for differentiation, and Indians need to build on that. Instead, we continuously identify with "brown" peoples, even among the immigrant community. We do not differentiate ourselves.

Secondly, Muslim immigrants are particularly well-organized, and their organization is not just social/cultural, but political. They are keen propagandists. Hindu Indian immigrants are particularly apolitical, with very little social outreach as Hindu/Indian-Americans. (If anything, most Indo-American propaganda orgs are hard Left, from university campuses to the media). As a result, Indian immigrants are routinely used by Muslim immigrant organizations to mobilize against "white racism" which they fear. Hindus will come out on social media and on the streets if need be in support of Muslims being targeted, because they think "first them, next it will be us". This only reinforces the popular local perception of us being essentially the same as Muslims. It is fine to support innocent victims of bigotry, but it should be done as Hindu/Indian organizations - not mobilized like sheep by Islamist organizations that have no actual sympathy for Hindus/Indians (and actually has parallel anti-Hindu agendas - it is not inconceivable that these types in league with certain sections of the Left will use Indians as bali ka bakras including shootings to create a further divide).

The need is to put out the message that Hindus/Indians are:
- a distinct identity
- not a threat to the West, but a synergetic civilizational dynamic
- an ALLY against Islamic and Communist subversion, with centuries long experience fighting the former running into present times
- in religious terms, Hindus have been far more appreciative of the persona of Jesus than Muhammad, and there's no harm emphasizing that, as most gurus do.

While continuously putting out the above message, we can express sympathy with those unfairly targeted, including our Muslim neighbors.
Last edited by ramana on 08 Mar 2017 05:57, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added bold. ramana
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by GShankar »

I agree with pretty much what Agnimitra has said with one additional caveat. The first step should be to get out of the sooth-asia identity bijnez.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by Agnimitra »

The "Left" is by nature an internationalist strain - easily merging with international "Left" or any other subversive strain.

The "Right" is by nature the "division bell" - easily crystallizing international difference and division.

The challenge is to build a coalition of the "Right".

It is easy for the "Left"/subversive to accentuate the divide to send such a formation into a negative spiral by triggering the natural instincts of the "Right".

Needs higher thinking and more robust ideology for the "Right" to surmount that.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by Yagnasri »

One Idea I have. I may work.

Just take advertisements or press meet saying that you are not Muslims and ask Americans not to attack you. Ergo you will be accused by MSM as fanning Islamophobia and then say how Muslims killed your people and how you are like Jews killed by Muslims for centuries etc etc. Soon almost everyone will know that you and you ancestors are victims of Muslims. We all know Holocaust. Where do we speak about almost 800 years of Jihad and almost 12 cr Hindus died in it? Nowhere. Start with that. Hindu Holocaust month etc. will be a great thing in the US. Call people like Trump or some idiots. Say how we were treated just like Yazdi is being treated today. Just speak truth. MSM will spin it all against us anyway.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by OmkarC »

^^ While being onboard w/ the excellent approach outlined by Agnimitra ji (Is there anyway for the forum mods to store his post for future reference ?), I am not sure about the assessment that white skin advantage wears off and avg American Joe learns to see through a Turk/Chechen/Bosnian.

There are different aspects of human behavior at play here - religion based discrimination is "intellectual" while racial discrimination is more instinctive and sub-conscious. Ramifications of these behaviors: A Muslim will have much more difficulty landing a job interview if he has a Mohammed in his name, but a Hindu will have to face the wrath of the more "instinct" driven Avg Joe on the street, if he looks like himself aka brown.
Last edited by OmkarC on 08 Mar 2017 06:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by NRao »

* NPR reporting that there have been 120 incidents reported against Jewish institutions. School closed in Chicago, two places in Milwaukee, bomb threats in upper New York, etc

* Visited my Mexican store. Everything is now Made in the USA or Product of the USA.
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by Cybaru »

NRao wrote:* Visited my Mexican store. Everything is now Made in the USA or Product of the USA.
:eek: They started manufacturing in 6 weeks? All factories operational and supply chain active with products making it to the shelves also? Are you sure these products weren't being made in USA before? Are you looking for evidence that you want to see? (Aka Confirmation bias?).
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by GShankar »

Cybaru wrote:
NRao wrote:* Visited my Mexican store. Everything is now Made in the USA or Product of the USA.
:eek: They started manufacturing in 6 weeks? All factories operational and supply chain active with products making it to the shelves also? Are you sure these products weren't being made in USA before? Are you looking for evidence that you want to see? (Aka Confirmation bias?).
Printing labels normally takes 6 weeks or less :mrgreen:
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by Cybaru »

Not if you have the label printers which are made in china. They 3d scan and clone objects in seconds better than the replicator on star trek! They produce and then label things based on your geolocation!
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Re: India-US relations: News and Discussions III

Post by habal »

Kindly note only Sikhs and Hindus are being targeted by random american jokers:
various possibilities at play here

1. Indian muslims, Indian christians, pakistani muslims/ahmadiyas/Iranians have better survival skills and are thus less frequently targeted ?

2. Swarthy folks make themselves more conspicuous by their presence and thus unknowingly end up becoming victims of hate crimes and playing into prevailing racial black-white undercurrents.

3. Foreign intelligence agencies spying in troubled waters. Pakistani ISI constantly frets about their countries 'image', putting bombs on railway tracks and sabotaging railways and creating panic in emigrant Indians is a good way to avenge their all-round failure.

4. Ordinary white collar americans laid off their service sector and displaced in IT sector looking to get back at Indians for outsourced jobs. Thes are lone wolves, and just fishing in troubled waters. They have most to gain from creating a panic in Indians and creating fear hysteria.

5. Alt-right sections are out to create low-cost campaign to just see if they can make any headway into immigration trends from just a low-risk, low-visibility, nagging kind of hate campaign. After mexican wall, they feel need to block other immigrant avenues.
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