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J&K News and Discussion - 2016

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Garooda
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Garooda » 20 Apr 2017 21:53

Gagan wrote:The money bags in the valley, who appropriate all the funds from the state government amd then play both sides of the LOC has to be curtailed. This whole separatism industry runs on money, it is a criminal syndicate, that sells to the highest bidder.
Agree. I often wondered the same. Milk both sides.

Garooda
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Garooda » 20 Apr 2017 21:57

Vikas wrote:Even GoI is drinking the Koolaid of keeping this artificial entity alive and pouring money into this cesspool.
How much of it goes back to the babus? 8) :wink: sub chalta hai raj from day 1.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby CRamS » 20 Apr 2017 22:51

rohitvats wrote:http://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/kashmirvalleys-lost-middle-ground-as-voter-turnout-was-lowst-in-srinagar-since-insurgency-4620129/

Very good article by Lt General Hooda, ex-Northern Army Commander.

Shows very clear appreciation of the situation and ground realities.


Some p-sec crowd is going to use the general's article as a pacifist type advise to the government. But careful reading of the article tells you that if GOI follows this advice, all these 'innocent, misguided' youth will no longer be seen on the street.



I beg to differ. As an army man, we don't need his advice on winning minds. I would rather hear his strategy on how we can achieve complete and total military dominance over KMs and TSP through our military might. Please remember that one of the reasons we have not been able to win over the minds of the KMs is because of our inability to thwart TSP's and KMs' ability to create chaos. Thus, when they see us losing our troops and officers, when the kill ratio is not overwhelmingly high in our favor, then it becomes all the more hard to win over a jihadi mind. So the jihadis continue to push the button hoping that at some point India will cut its losses and talk, meaning concessions to TSP on the valley. These hard core Jihadi type Muslims only understand the language of complete dominance. Do you see jihadi Muslims wag their tail in countries like US and Australia? Why? Because should they, there is only a one way ticket to 72 en route Guantanamo bay. And sorry, when generals turn peace-nicks like this guy, pseudo seculars and traitors like burka bibi will latch on to it. Ditto intelligence officers like that peace-nick puke AS Dulat.

I trust army mens' advice like those of Bakshi, Maroof Raza etc.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Prem » 20 Apr 2017 23:55


eklavya
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby eklavya » 21 Apr 2017 19:49

CRamS wrote:
rohitvats wrote:http://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/kashmirvalleys-lost-middle-ground-as-voter-turnout-was-lowst-in-srinagar-since-insurgency-4620129/

Very good article by Lt General Hooda, ex-Northern Army Commander.

Shows very clear appreciation of the situation and ground realities.


Some p-sec crowd is going to use the general's article as a pacifist type advise to the government. But careful reading of the article tells you that if GOI follows this advice, all these 'innocent, misguided' youth will no longer be seen on the street.



I beg to differ. As an army man, we don't need his advice on winning minds. I would rather hear his strategy on how we can achieve complete and total military dominance over KMs and TSP through our military might. Please remember that one of the reasons we have not been able to win over the minds of the KMs is because of our inability to thwart TSP's and KMs' ability to create chaos. Thus, when they see us losing our troops and officers, when the kill ratio is not overwhelmingly high in our favor, then it becomes all the more hard to win over a jihadi mind. So the jihadis continue to push the button hoping that at some point India will cut its losses and talk, meaning concessions to TSP on the valley. These hard core Jihadi type Muslims only understand the language of complete dominance. Do you see jihadi Muslims wag their tail in countries like US and Australia? Why? Because should they, there is only a one way ticket to 72 en route Guantanamo bay. And sorry, when generals turn peace-nicks like this guy, pseudo seculars and traitors like burka bibi will latch on to it. Ditto intelligence officers like that peace-nick puke AS Dulat.

I trust army mens' advice like those of Bakshi, Maroof Raza etc.


Lt. Gen Hooda is a highly decorated officer who has served his country in uniform with distinction for over 40 years. He is a highly regarded former Northern Army commander. He has led a division in J&K and in the North East. He is no peacenik. When people like Gen Hooda have something to say about the ground situation in J&K, it is well worth listening.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby UlanBatori » 21 Apr 2017 20:05

IIRC, there are multiple reasons:
1) The Patriotism card has been played and become jaded
2) The Army did not demand that people display mark on finger to buy rations.
3) Ppl are sick of the corrupt guvrmand, elections, everything.

Solution IMO is to create new excitement. Raise property values by bringing in new settlers (i.e., ignore 370). Bring in "development" (what I don't know - is there anything that can't be reversed by throwing stones or using VBIEDs?)
Change the demographics by Jammu-based infusion.
Get better candidates to compete in the elections (how I don't know).
Improve links with rest of India.

Prem
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Prem » 22 Apr 2017 03:28

Create special force, group of people who volunteer to settle in the Valley . We need Valleyward Pilgrim movement . Allocate the land to them and enforce the rights of nominee to exploit the land as he feel fit.

Cosmo_R
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Cosmo_R » 22 Apr 2017 03:39

DButt is at it again. The relevance that this woman thinks she has are laughable and delusional:

" I also backed the idea of the alliance for the another reason: I thought that the hyper-nationalism of the BJP and the soft-separatism of the People’s Democratic Party (PDP) would be moderating influences on each other. For over two decades I had watched the rhetoric of opposing extremes squeeze out the middle-ground with high-pitched confrontations. This new politics, I believed, would be an enabler of centrism, a much missing strain in the Kashmir discourse.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/columns/t ... zJfnI.html

Will the @RealHafeezSaeed please retweet this?

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby A_Gupta » 22 Apr 2017 19:02

The cruel joke of "plebiscite" -- this morning, on the US National Public Radio program "On the Media", http://www.wnyc.org/shows/otm/featured
Professor Matt Qvortrup discussed referendums and plebiscites with the host. Qvortrup says that while in English common usage, referendums and plebiscites are confused with each other, plebiscites are associated with foregone outcomes, typically run by dictators; and this is a distinction that political scientists keep.

I found this:
https://pesd.princeton.edu/?q=node/311
In its modern form, the word plebiscite became widely used after the French Revolution when Napoleon Bonaparte used the device to secure legitimacy and approval for his rule and for the decision to crown himself emperor[iii]. This use of the plebiscite as a device for seeking approval for dictators has given the plebiscite a dubious reputation in much of the literature. In English the word plebiscite is often used synonymously with the word referendum. For example, the democratic votes at the held the instigation of Woodrow Wilson after the First World War were described as ‘plebiscites’[iv]. But in other countries the word has often been associated with dictators.
....
....
In French jurisprudence a distinction is commonly drawn between referendums and plebiscites. According to one authoritative definition; “While the referendum allows the people to express themselves freely, the plebicite allows a person … to legitimize himself by posing a question to the people who answered in the affirmative” ‘Alors que le référendum permet au peuple de s’exprimer librement, le plébicite permet à une personne ... de se légitimer en posant au peuple une question qui appelle une réponse positive“[vii].
....
This use of the word plebiscite is reflected in the use of the word in philosophy and even in fiction. French author George Sand (1871:306) wrote “Le plébiscite..[est] un attentat à la liberté du peuple lui-même "[viii], Hannah Arendt(1906-1975) – in On Revolution – wrote that the “plebiscite puts an end to the citizen’s right to vote, to choose and to control the government”[ix]. And in his posthumous novel The Leopard, Giuseppe di Lampedusa (1896-1957) wrote an account of the Italian plebiscites at the time of the Risorgimento, which vividly expressed the view that plebiscites were less than fair and democratic.


The whole article is worth reading.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Karthik S » 22 Apr 2017 20:09

NorthernComd.IA‏ @NorthernComd_IA
#JKOps In a swift operation Two terrorists eliminated in Hayatpura, Budgam. Two AK, one pistol recovered. No injury to tps. Ops over @adgpi


Good hunting.

chetak
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby chetak » 22 Apr 2017 20:58

The govt has backed off.

Just backed off despite tremendous pressure from the PDP and the congis combined. Not counting the filthy commies, naxals and all the sickular anti-nationals who crept out of the woodwork to protest the incident and vilify the IA.

It is also a serious and very public slap on the face of all kashmiris who curse the very idea of India, whoever and where ever they may be. It's time to take the gloves off and get the job done instead of formulating policies that forever benefit the jehadis and the pakis.

This would have undoubtedly and very seriously damaged the BJP all over the country as well really damaged the very credibility of Modi himself.

It would possibly have triggered a very serious backlash from the IA itself, especially after the budgam incident where an ill-advised apology was made by the IA even before the inquiry was completed because of political pressure and the spinelessness of the IA higher command??.

There has been a tremendous resentment in the Forces and the retired community about any action being taken/contemplated against the young major who led the operation so innovatively. First time ever that I am seeing such a massive reaction. This has been a long time coming with the successive govts hog tying the IA in all operational matters. This has resulted in mounting IA casualities which could have been minimised had the IA been allowed to evecuate it's injured in time and controlled hostile crowds with an iron hand.

mehbooba has turned out to be a sly, scheming and twisted jehadi supporter who is now completely out of her depth and the pakis have cleverly managed to sideline her from the equation when she thought that she would reign as queen and preferred peacemaker to deliver cashmere to the pakis who are being hard pressed by their han creditors to deliver on the CPEC front by legitimising the han incursions into Indian territory.

The heating up of the cashmere problem at this juncture has han fingerprints all over it.



Govt stands by officer in J&K ‘human shield’ row


Govt stands by officer in J&K ‘human shield’ row

Updated: Apr 17, 2017,

Centre will stand by the Army officer who took the decision as a "last resort".
The Army brass is of the view that the unfortunate incident was unavoidable.
Arun Jaitley is likely to address the issue when he meets Army commanders today.


NEW DELHI: The government has decided to stand by the Army officer who took the decision to use an alleged stone-pelter as a "human shield" tied to a jeep+ to steer his unit and Jammu and Kashmir officials and paramilitary personnel on election duty to safety.
The government has taken note of an Army probe into the April 9 incident which concluded that the commanding officer took the decision reluctantly and as the last resort after he realised that his unit had to pass through streets crowded with a mob of stone-pelters who had also taken positions on surrounding rooftops.

J&K cops book Army unit for using ‘human shield’

The trapped personnel included about a dozen local J&K employees, about 9-10 ITBP jawans, a couple of constables from J&K police and a bus driver.

Defence minister Arun Jaitley is likely to address the issue when he meets Army commanders on Monday. The government has appreciated that the controversial decision was taken in an extraordinary situation where the officer incharge of the unit had a difficult choice to make.
Indicating that the government feels the Army is being made a political target, minister of state for PMO and Udhampur MP Jitendra Singh told a J&K newspaper that "apologetic" Kashmir leaders were guilty of encouraging terrorism in the Valley. He said these leaders had lost the moral authority to make insinuations against Army personnel who they found a soft target while they lacked the the courage to condemn perpetrators of terrorism.

The Army brass is of the view that the unfortunate incident was unavoidable as the unit was surrounded by hundreds of protestors who were bent on violence.
As things turned out, the man used as a human shield was handed over to local authorities and no lives were lost. The video of the incident, released by former J&K chief minister Omar Abdullah, went viral and sparked off protests by human rights activists and political parties. BJP has been more muted, saying the incident was being probed but the challenging situation the Army has to deal with on the ground must be appreciated.

The run-up to the byelections was been marked by strongly pro-separatist campaigning by the National Conference with its leader Farooq Abdullah in the fray. In a bid to mop up the "azadi" vote, he played to the gallery and was seen to have backed stone-pelters, leading to some sharp exchanges with J&K CM Mehbooba Mufti.

The bypolls in J&K have been particularly violent with separatists and pro-terrorist groups enforcing a near total boycott of polling.
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INDIA
CJI pitches against govt role in arbitration process

INDIA
Muslims don't vote for us, but we gave them sanctity: Prasad
The EC was forced to order re-polling as Pakistan aligned groups in the Valley seemed determined to thwart the usual scenes of people lining up to vote which was held out by India as a success of the electoral process.
Top Comment

We whole heartedly support army's decision and praise government's decision to support the Army. In future this should become a norm for stone pelters.
Shamik Roy

In the wake of prolonged violence last year following the encounter death of Hizbul Mujahideen commander Burhan Wani, separatists and Pakistani agencies have been keen to ensure that India could not claim validation of the participatory process in elections.+

chetak
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby chetak » 22 Apr 2017 21:06

Cosmo_R wrote:DButt is at it again. The relevance that this woman thinks she has are laughable and delusional:

" I also backed the idea of the alliance for the another reason: I thought that the hyper-nationalism of the BJP and the soft-separatism of the People’s Democratic Party (PDP) would be moderating influences on each other. For over two decades I had watched the rhetoric of opposing extremes squeeze out the middle-ground with high-pitched confrontations. This new politics, I believed, would be an enabler of centrism, a much missing strain in the Kashmir discourse.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/columns/t ... zJfnI.html

Will the @RealHafeezSaeed please retweet this?


The implications of burkha butt backing/not backing the deal is not lost on anyone.

You just have to figure out her current paymaster.

the biatch is severely constrained and effectively drowned out by her minuscule audience and also by being mercilessly trolled and damaged on SM by the India first brigade.

It's not surprising that no Indian channel seems to have given her a new home after she jumped the sinking runditv ship like the presstitute rat that she is.

her abrasive anti Hindu rantings on runditV as well as the foul ideological baggage that she carries around have reduced her to a mere cipher.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby CRamS » 22 Apr 2017 22:38

I like this interview with Gen Panag who took issue with Indian army using a KM as human shield to ward off the blood thirsty stone pelting mob.

http://www.ndtv.com/video/shows/new-kid ... -top-shows

My comments:

1. Gen Panag is a decorated, decent, thoughtful guy and he disagrees with army's decision to use a human shield as it gives a bad name to Indian army. While I respectfully disagree with him, but by no means do I call him anti-national and crap like that like some on twitter have done.

2. He is wrong because in war, which is what India is up against, there is no black and white, there are shades of grey. So under normal circumstances, I agree taking a human shield is against the ethos of a professional military, in war it is no, especially, if not making the choice involved lots of loss of life, oxygen for the India haters, secessionists, TSP etc. So it was the best of a lot of bad options available given the impending disaster.

3. Where I laugh at Panag is when he seems to give way too much importance to a rag like NYT that hates India and Hindus and does equal equal. He was raving about how NYT and BBC gave him prominence and how by NYT covering that incident givens Indian army a bad name in "international eyes". As a well-read man he should know NYT always justifies the actions of its army or at best puts a positive spin. NYT at best is a mute spectator on its torture chambers like Guantanamo bay. The list goes on. And above all, NYT has never quite extolled he virtues of Indian army in Kashmir.

4. He makes some good points on the way forward, but he misses the target on why it is any Indian dialogue with KMs ground up as he suggests is bound to fail: TSP. As a veteran, he should know that all the circus, the stone pelting, the propaganda, the terror, you name it is not to force India to open a dialogue with Kashmir students as he suggests, bu rather, it is TSP pointing a gun at India's head and asking it to talk. The very first demand that any KM who sits down to talk to Indian govt will be to open dialouge with TSP. So any political rapprochement with KMs sans TSP will be nipped in the bud by some diabolical machination by TSP.

5. So the crucial question the general did not address is what can Indian army do to thwart TSP's game plan which is the only stumbling block to an any genuine political process between KMs and Indian govt.

6. Finally, while that Paki b@itch Shiela Rashid was speciously comparing ABVP with the stone pelting and asked why an ABVP guy was not taken hostage like what Indian army did in the valley, I could sense her squirm when the general ruled out KM fantasies like "azaadi", Ummah, and TSP love making; all of which are the fantasies of frauds like her.

ramana
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ramana » 23 Apr 2017 04:26

chetak wrote:The govt has backed off.

Just backed off despite tremendous pressure from the PDP and the congis combined. Not counting the filthy commies, naxals and all the sickular anti-nationals who crept out of the woodwork to protest the incident and vilify the IA.

It is also a serious and very public slap on the face of all kashmiris who curse the very idea of India, whoever and where ever they may be. It's time to take the gloves off and get the job done instead of formulating policies that forever benefit the jehadis and the pakis.

This would have undoubtedly and very seriously damaged the BJP all over the country as well really damaged the very credibility of Modi himself.

It would possibly have triggered a very serious backlash from the IA itself, especially after the budgam incident where an ill-advised apology was made by the IA even before the inquiry was completed because of political pressure and the spinelessness of the IA higher command??.

There has been a tremendous resentment in the Forces and the retired community about any action being taken/contemplated against the young major who led the operation so innovatively. First time ever that I am seeing such a massive reaction. This has been a long time coming with the successive govts hog tying the IA in all operational matters. This has resulted in mounting IA casualities which could have been minimised had the IA been allowed to evecuate it's injured in time and controlled hostile crowds with an iron hand.

mehbooba has turned out to be a sly, scheming and twisted jehadi supporter who is now completely out of her depth and the pakis have cleverly managed to sideline her from the equation when she thought that she would reign as queen and preferred peacemaker to deliver cashmere to the pakis who are being hard pressed by their han creditors to deliver on the CPEC front by legitimising the han incursions into Indian territory.

The heating up of the cashmere problem at this juncture has han fingerprints all over it.



Govt stands by officer in J&K ‘human shield’ row


Govt stands by officer in J&K ‘human shield’ row

Updated: Apr 17, 2017,

Centre will stand by the Army officer who took the decision as a "last resort".
The Army brass is of the view that the unfortunate incident was unavoidable.
Arun Jaitley is likely to address the issue when he meets Army commanders today.


NEW DELHI: The government has decided to stand by the Army officer who took the decision to use an alleged stone-pelter as a "human shield" tied to a jeep+ to steer his unit and Jammu and Kashmir officials and paramilitary personnel on election duty to safety.
The government has taken note of an Army probe into the April 9 incident which concluded that the commanding officer took the decision reluctantly and as the last resort after he realised that his unit had to pass through streets crowded with a mob of stone-pelters who had also taken positions on surrounding rooftops.

J&K cops book Army unit for using ‘human shield’

The trapped personnel included about a dozen local J&K employees, about 9-10 ITBP jawans, a couple of constables from J&K police and a bus driver.

Defence minister Arun Jaitley is likely to address the issue when he meets Army commanders on Monday. The government has appreciated that the controversial decision was taken in an extraordinary situation where the officer incharge of the unit had a difficult choice to make.
Indicating that the government feels the Army is being made a political target, minister of state for PMO and Udhampur MP Jitendra Singh told a J&K newspaper that "apologetic" Kashmir leaders were guilty of encouraging terrorism in the Valley. He said these leaders had lost the moral authority to make insinuations against Army personnel who they found a soft target while they lacked the the courage to condemn perpetrators of terrorism.

The Army brass is of the view that the unfortunate incident was unavoidable as the unit was surrounded by hundreds of protestors who were bent on violence.
As things turned out, the man used as a human shield was handed over to local authorities and no lives were lost. The video of the incident, released by former J&K chief minister Omar Abdullah, went viral and sparked off protests by human rights activists and political parties. BJP has been more muted, saying the incident was being probed but the challenging situation the Army has to deal with on the ground must be appreciated.

The run-up to the byelections was been marked by strongly pro-separatist campaigning by the National Conference with its leader Farooq Abdullah in the fray. In a bid to mop up the "azadi" vote, he played to the gallery and was seen to have backed stone-pelters, leading to some sharp exchanges with J&K CM Mehbooba Mufti.

The bypolls in J&K have been particularly violent with separatists and pro-terrorist groups enforcing a near total boycott of polling.
YOU MIGHT ALSO LIKE


INDIA
CJI pitches against govt role in arbitration process

INDIA
Muslims don't vote for us, but we gave them sanctity: Prasad
The EC was forced to order re-polling as Pakistan aligned groups in the Valley seemed determined to thwart the usual scenes of people lining up to vote which was held out by India as a success of the electoral process.
Top Comment

We whole heartedly support army's decision and praise government's decision to support the Army. In future this should become a norm for stone pelters.
Shamik Roy

In the wake of prolonged violence last year following the encounter death of Hizbul Mujahideen commander Burhan Wani, separatists and Pakistani agencies have been keen to ensure that India could not claim validation of the participatory process in elections.+

Great chetak.
Now take this along with Ram Madhav saying he was wrong to pursue the alliance. Now we will see the other side.
On the other hand this state of turmoil unmasking the reptiles wouldn't have occured.

Surya
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Posts: 5020
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Surya » 23 Apr 2017 04:29

Well with Panag its all about how great he is and how he cleaned up the mess before.

am less inclined to read his writing

ramana
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ramana » 23 Apr 2017 12:36

Ekalavya, Lt Gen. Hooda(R) and and Panag(R) were good soldiers. However this is a political issue.
So invoking them us a logical fallacy of appeal to false authority.
It's like calling doctors of divinity to treat a patient.

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Location: Mumbai,India

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby VKumar » 23 Apr 2017 13:21

Whether politicians on both sides of border and those in countries selling arms are interested to resolve the problems. Also armed forces are big employment opportunities and huge, huge budgets for income generation.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby sanjayc » 23 Apr 2017 13:34

CRamS wrote:3. Where I laugh at Panag is when he seems to give way too much importance to a rag like NYT that hates India and Hindus and does equal equal. He was raving about how NYT and BBC gave him prominence and how by NYT covering that incident givens Indian army a bad name in "international eyes". As a well-read man he should know NYT always justifies the actions of its army or at best puts a positive spin. NYT at best is a mute spectator on its torture chambers like Guantanamo bay. The list goes on. And above all, NYT has never quite extolled he virtues of Indian army in Kashmir.


Panag has a colonized mind, on the lines of Nehru. "What will White people think?" was Nehru's biggest worry. The whites understood his inferiority complex, and played him by strategically withdrawing or giving their praise. Same seems to the mental makeup of Panag. How many Chinese generals fret about what Whites think of the Chinese army?

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby CRamS » 23 Apr 2017 19:58

SanjaC, I have not heard chincom generals speak in public so I don't know. But extrapolating through their political pronouncements, I doubt they would give a rat's arse for what NYT thinks. In any case, Chincoms and whites have more equal relationship than us SDREs and whites. But lets not forget that Chincoms are as colonized in their minds if not more. But their economic success has given them a bit more confidence. Anyway, all of this is not the topic of this thread.

Coming back to J&K, guys, a tube light moment hit me. I see a conspiracy hatched, maybe stated or unstated, between NC, Congoons, TSP, and other assorted BJP haters in India (perhaps with wink, wink, nod, nod from whites). And that is with recent roaring success of BJP in UP, the BJP haters are now using the one trump card they have, J&K to put ModiJi on the defensive. The b@stards are slimily connecting the cow and beef politics in the rest of India, the killings of Muslims on this issue with the so called angst of the KMs.

I mean look at the fraud. KMs have been demanding their brazen fantasies even under the most appeasing of govts in the past (MMS and Sonia wanted to sell India down the Jhelum by making love to TSP in the valley) , and suddenly these traitors are connecting KMs thuggery with BJP's rise. My point being that these traitors are happy to see Kashmir slip away so they can then claim BJP broke India as their election plank and will claim that if BJP is voted, India will wither away. In other words, J&K is now their trump card to unseat BJP.

sudeepj
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby sudeepj » 23 Apr 2017 20:48

sanjayc wrote:
CRamS wrote:3. Where I laugh at Panag is when he seems to give way too much importance to a rag like NYT that hates India and Hindus and does equal equal. He was raving about how NYT and BBC gave him prominence and how by NYT covering that incident givens Indian army a bad name in "international eyes". As a well-read man he should know NYT always justifies the actions of its army or at best puts a positive spin. NYT at best is a mute spectator on its torture chambers like Guantanamo bay. The list goes on. And above all, NYT has never quite extolled he virtues of Indian army in Kashmir.


Panag has a colonized mind, on the lines of Nehru. "What will White people think?" was Nehru's biggest worry. The whites understood his inferiority complex, and played him by strategically withdrawing or giving their praise. Same seems to the mental makeup of Panag. How many Chinese generals fret about what Whites think of the Chinese army?


What the NYT thinks is important in as much as its the foremost in shaping globalist opinion. These are the people who are 'overcome' with sadness at HR abuses they read about in NYT and want to run to the security council or some other such and coerce other states.

Having said that, the stature of the globalist movement has significantly reduced in the West. What remains to be seen is, is it just a swing of the pendulum, or something with more permanence. Another thing that has happened in parallel is that India has grown in size and stature and that is not a trend that looks like it will falter for the next decade at least.

A tangential effect of NYT is that a vast majority of journalists look up to the NYT and see it as the epitome of journalism. Imagine my surprise, when I saw Paul Krugman OpEds translated and printed in vernacular editions of Dainik Bhaskar!! The times is beginning to wield influence beyond its linguistic barriers.

People dont realize it, but journalists and opinion makers were among the foremost soldiers of the cold war. They were coopted by the CIA through manipulated awards, grants, leaks, access and so on and fired reams of print at the mental battleground in the cold war and eventually, won the war for the west. We should watch and learn. We are beginning to see some rebellion among the journalist ranks, thanks to Subhash Chandra and Arnab, but we are still kids in the school where CIA is the principal. :-)

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby vasu raya » 23 Apr 2017 21:32

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-300-whatsapp-groups-were-used-to-mobilise-stone-pelters-at-2413194

Each of these 300 Whatsapp groups had around 250 members, the official said while explaining how determined attempts were being made to disrupt the operations of the security forces by mobilising stone-pelting mobs at the encounter sites.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby chetak » 24 Apr 2017 03:53

Surya wrote:Well with Panag its all about how great he is and how he cleaned up the mess before.

am less inclined to read his writing



obsessive aapia and unrequited political ambition can do that to one.


there were other channels that the general could have chosen to apear on, instead of runditv

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby anjan » 24 Apr 2017 04:07

ramana wrote:Ekalavya, Lt Gen. Hooda(R) and and Panag(R) were good soldiers. However this is a political issue.
So invoking them us a logical fallacy of appeal to false authority.
It's like calling doctors of divinity to treat a patient.

War is the violent end of politics. Its really weird to compare a general commenting on politics to a witch doctor. Politics is inherent in war. And they spend a lot of time studying it.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ShauryaT » 24 Apr 2017 04:18

anjan wrote:
ramana wrote:Ekalavya, Lt Gen. Hooda(R) and and Panag(R) were good soldiers. However this is a political issue.
So invoking them us a logical fallacy of appeal to false authority.
It's like calling doctors of divinity to treat a patient.

War is the violent end of politics. Its really weird to compare a general commenting on politics to a witch doctor. Politics is inherent in war. And they spend a lot of time studying it.
But in a democratic setup, it is a professional politician who holds the policy and political end of the stick. The forces serve the civilian authorities to execute even war. The simple point being made is it is false authority to appeal to, not to say their arguments based on their military experience have no value - but remain sub authoritative is the point.

In J&K, the military has delivered as best as any other professional force can. Kashmir is a political issue to solve. The ball is squarely in the courts of the politicians to use policy to drive desired end results for the short, medium and long term.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby chetak » 24 Apr 2017 04:22

ramana wrote:

Great chetak.
Now take this along with Ram Madhav saying he was wrong to pursue the alliance. Now we will see the other side.
On the other hand this state of turmoil unmasking the reptiles wouldn't have occured.


Ram Madhav was wrong to pursue the alliance in the way that he did.

The PDP did not stop from pursuing it's separatist agenda, only it had acquired a larger than life persona by aligning with the BJP. As usual, like all political parties aligning with the BJP, it also thought that it had acquired the keys to the khazana and the uncounted funds would start to flow. Reality hit both parties very quickly and because of the involvement of the BJP at the highest level, both from party and the RSS, it would have led to enormous loss of face for both if they had pulled out

The BJP very quickly realized that it had stepped on a landmine and threw a spanner into the works. It balked at the alliance going forward in the way that it was structured and thereafter everything went downhill. It should have held on to crucial ministries like Home at the very least, instead, it chose to play the junior partner and allow the separatist mehbooba to take control of the narrative and everything went into a downward spiral from there.

mehbooba has actively conspired against Indian interests. Her sympathies have always lain across the border. Who did not know that both the NC and the PDP are reptilian parties??

Both parties have messed up real good and it will show in the next elections.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby chetak » 24 Apr 2017 04:36

ShauryaT wrote:
anjan wrote:War is the violent end of politics. Its really weird to compare a general commenting on politics to a witch doctor. Politics is inherent in war. And they spend a lot of time studying it.
But in a democratic setup, it is a professional politician who holds the policy and political end of the stick. The forces serve the civilian authorities to execute even war. The simple point being made is it is false authority to appeal to, not to say their arguments based on their military experience have no value - but remain sub authoritative is the point.

In J&K, the military has delivered as best as any other professional force can. Kashmir is a political issue to solve. The ball is squarely in the courts of the politicians to use policy to drive desired end results for the short, medium and long term.


It is precisely to unnerve the army, that the kashmiri politicos are raking up these things. Panag should have kept quiet if he did not like it. Instead, he chose to aid and abet when he should have known far better.

There is no reason for the IA to be facing the TV screens on this matter. The grip that we had earlier has been deliberately loosened by mehbooba and she has succeeded in marking a target of the IA and getting it equated to the paki army.

The blundering BJP has fallen headlong into this trap.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby chetak » 24 Apr 2017 05:06

no wonder that the NC, especially the abdullah's, pere et fils, is in a panic and desperately wants president's rule in J&K immediately.

With a new CM, the BJP will firmly occupy the saddle and grab the reins.



‘BJP wants new CM in J&K, may engineer a split in the PDP’


‘BJP wants new CM in J&K, may engineer a split in the PDP’
By NOOR-UL-QAMRAIN | Srinagar | 22 April, 2017

If sources are to be believed the National Security Agency is in favour of changing the face of the government in Jammu and Kashmir in the light of Mehbooba Mufti’s failure to contain street violence.


If sources are to be believed the National Security Agency is in favour of changing the face of the government in Jammu and Kashmir in the light of Mehbooba Mufti’s failure to contain street violence. Sources said that CM Mufti has herself been apprised of the impending “reshuffle” by her party colleagues who have warned her that the BJP may engineer a split in her People’s Democratic Party.

CM Mufti has been told that the BJP may poach a few PDP MLAs and lead them to a revolt, after which she would be replaced by a “Kashmiri face who is already close to the BJP”.

This development comes amidst growing acrimony between allies PDP and the Bharatiya Janata Party. Whereas CM Mufti is increasingly under pressure to snap ties with the national party, the Home Ministry and the National Security Advisor are holding her responsible for the protests.

The BJP is also of the view that the PDP’s failure to control the situation in Kashmir is becoming an embarrassment for it nationally.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi has expressed his displeasure over the deteriorating situation in the Kashmir valley, especially in the backdrop of the recent students’ protests which forced the government to close down all educational institutions. The low turnout in the Srinagar bypolls has made New Delhi rethink about the continuation of Mehbooba Mufti as state’s CM.

In the Union Cabinet, some ministers are in favour of imposition of Governor’s Rule in J&K. The feedback given by Army chief Bipin Rawat to NSA Ajit Doval after his visit to J&K and the ground feedback by different intelligence agencies have added to the worries of New Delhi on how to handle the situation in J&K with Mufti as CM.

Recently, PDP candidate from Anantnag Parliamentary segment, Tassaduq Mufti, who is the younger brother of Mehbooba Mufti, told a national newspaper that it was time for New Delhi to respond to the growing alienation and anger in Kashmir. He said New Delhi should start the process of dialogue to address the aspirations of the youth. He opined that in the backdrop of the violence and strong-arm tactics to contain it, the PDP’s credibility has been eroded. Mehbooba Mufti is trying to keep her flock together amid a lot of “pressures and pulls” from New Delhi.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby chetak » 24 Apr 2017 05:13

PDP, BJP ministers meet as discord grows


PDP, BJP ministers meet as discord grows
By NOOR-UL-QAMRAIN | Srinagar | 22 April, 2017

PDP and BJP ministers of Jammu and Kashmir held a closed door meeting along with BJP general secretary in-charge of Kashmir, Ram Madhav on Friday to defuse the tension between the two alliance partners.

The meeting follows the People’s Democratic Party’s ultimatum to New Delhi that it cannot ignore the “agenda of alliance”. The meeting comes at a time when the regional party has been complaining to its partner that its credibility is suffering due to the “silence of the Centre on crucial issues”.

The PDP conveyed to Ram Madhav how the state unit of the BJP ditched them in the recently held Legislative Council elections and how the PDP has poached on the MLA of Zanskar, Aga Bakir, who voted for them and openly said that he would join the BJP if they met his demands. The “ditching” is cited as the reason for the PDP’s loss in the Jammu seat. J&K Finance Minister Haseeb Drabu conveyed the message of Chief Minister Mehbooba Mufti in the meeting.

It was suggested by the PDP that the situation would improve if the Centre initiated the process of “forward movement” on Kashmir. Haseeb Drabu has reportedly impressed upon the BJP leadership that they will have to take some action on the “reckless” remarks of minister Chander Parkash Ganga, who reportedly said that all Kashmiris were traitors and the stone-pelters should be treated only with bullets.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Cosmo_R » 24 Apr 2017 05:20

"The Kashmir Valley has become a warzone today because of radical Islam. This is the exact same genre of Islam that caused the terrorist attack in Paris last week. And the exact same genre that lies at the root of all jihadi terrorist attacks. Until we admit this, we cannot begin to talk of peace. Just as it is impossible to defeat the worldwide jihad as long as moderate Muslims continue to support it, albeit inadvertently, for reasons of piety, faith and community, so will it be impossible to defeat the jihad in Kashmir. The violent mobs that abuse security personnel on the streets of Srinagar are made up of small boys and youths who are too young to understand politics but who have been bred on their difference from other Indians for reasons of faith."

http://indianexpress.com/article/opinio ... g-4624192/

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby chetak » 24 Apr 2017 05:54

Cosmo_R wrote:"The Kashmir Valley has become a warzone today because of radical Islam. This is the exact same genre of Islam that caused the terrorist attack in Paris last week. And the exact same genre that lies at the root of all jihadi terrorist attacks. Until we admit this, we cannot begin to talk of peace. Just as it is impossible to defeat the worldwide jihad as long as moderate Muslims continue to support it, albeit inadvertently, for reasons of piety, faith and community, so will it be impossible to defeat the jihad in Kashmir. The violent mobs that abuse security personnel on the streets of Srinagar are made up of small boys and youths who are too young to understand politics but who have been bred on their difference from other Indians for reasons of faith."

http://indianexpress.com/article/opinio ... g-4624192/


this nonsensical talk of winning the hearts and minds of jehadis is futile.

It was always about islam right from the beginning.

Water and strategic depth, siachin and sir creek etc are things that go with the paki insecurity. If you give all this away, then another set of more outrageous demands will follow then another set and so on ad infinitum or is it ad nauseam ??

You have to first own their ass, their hearts and minds will automatically follow.

This is the only way that a jehadi understands and respects, cashmere or paki.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby anjan » 24 Apr 2017 07:16

ShauryaT wrote:
anjan wrote:War is the violent end of politics. Its really weird to compare a general commenting on politics to a witch doctor. Politics is inherent in war. And they spend a lot of time studying it.
But in a democratic setup, it is a professional politician who holds the policy and political end of the stick. The forces serve the civilian authorities to execute even war. The simple point being made is it is false authority to appeal to, not to say their arguments based on their military experience have no value - but remain sub authoritative is the point.

In J&K, the military has delivered as best as any other professional force can. Kashmir is a political issue to solve. The ball is squarely in the courts of the politicians to use policy to drive desired end results for the short, medium and long term.

What false authority? Gen. Hooda is saying in as many words what has been said a hundred times before: The army had carved a space for action, the politics that is needed to fill that hole was missing. And in it's absence the violence has returned. Gen. Panag, AAP man that he is now, is still only commenting on the perception of the use of force. Any officer operating in any area will be in communication with politicians at their own level and a good officer will certainly understand the politics of any military action. Does that make either of them right? No. Like good politicians and bad politicians, there are bad generals and good generals and good generals with mistaken opinions and everything in between. To suggest however that having commanded in a CI area they don't have the expertise to comment is laughable.

Making decisions and having competence relevant to a decision are two different things.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ramana » 24 Apr 2017 10:41

On Kashmir you are with or against India.
Doesn't matter whether you are heaven born or commoner like us.
Very clear who is with India.
Not those two retd., officers.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby la.khan » 24 Apr 2017 11:54

CRamS wrote:... with recent roaring success of BJP in UP, the BJP haters are now using the one trump card they have, J&K to put ModiJi on the defensive. The b@stards are slimily connecting the cow and beef politics in the rest of India, the killings of Muslims on this issue with the so called angst of the KMs.

I mean look at the fraud. KMs have been demanding their brazen fantasies even under the most appeasing of govts in the past (MMS and Sonia wanted to sell India down the Jhelum by making love to TSP in the valley) , and suddenly these traitors are connecting KMs thuggery with BJP's rise. My point being that these traitors are happy to see Kashmir slip away so they can then claim BJP broke India as their election plank and will claim that if BJP is voted, India will wither away. In other words, J&K is now their trump card to unseat BJP.

Barf alert! Article was written by Category5Moron Jinnah's 2-nation theory triumphs in Kashmir

CRamS ji, I don't know if you have read the article but buttresses your point :evil:

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Karthik S » 24 Apr 2017 12:00

Trifurcate the state, Jammu, Ladakh and Kashmir. Let these KMs live in a ghetto like Gaza strip or west bank.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Vikas » 24 Apr 2017 14:23

ramana wrote:On Kashmir you are with or against India.
Doesn't matter whether you are heaven born or commoner like us.
Very clear who is with India.
Not those two retd., officers.


+100 to that.
What is this fascination with winning hearts and minds of KM. Not happening with current Generation and next Generation too is lost for good.Anyways those whose hearts and minds are with Bharat (everyone in J&K excluding KM's), what extra benefits they have reaped.

Development and Money is not going to tilt KM towards India nor this heart and mind battle as long as Pakistan is not Fixed.
I still believe that General Politico in Delhi has no clue on how to resolve this J&K problem politically.
More than being a Closet Islamist, Mehbooba is not a good administrator nor she knows how to rule. It is more of her Incompetence that is causing all the mayhem. Those who want to be all things to all the people end up being non one to nobody.

I too am in favor of Quadi-furcating the state but still don't know how will that resolve the problem as long as we let KM be the dominant player in this narrative.

PS: If we want to divide the state, Just make any Budhist or Hindu, CM of J&K and you would see how KMs erupt into demanding a separate state.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby DrRatnadip » 24 Apr 2017 14:33

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/jk-pdp- ... 340028.cms

Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) district President for Pulwama Abdul Gani Dar was critically injured on Monday after suspected terrorists opened fire on him at south Kashmir's Pinglan area of Pulwama district.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby shyamal » 24 Apr 2017 17:24

DrRatnadip wrote:http://m.timesofindia.com/india/jk-pdp-leader-abdul-gani-dar-shot-at-in-pulwama-condition-critical/articleshow/58340028.cms

Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) district President for Pulwama Abdul Gani Dar was critically injured on Monday after suspected terrorists opened fire on him at south Kashmir's Pinglan area of Pulwama district.


He is dead
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 340028.cms

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby satya » 24 Apr 2017 17:44

wheels within wheels :

INC-NC-PDP -TSP combo against NaMoji in open . Hidden hand is silent maybe playing dutiful role of a good conductor! Post US NSA vist saw hardening of TSP stance. Someone is fearing change of status quo on J&K .

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ramana » 24 Apr 2017 21:03

And hats off to Ram Madhav for being the lightning rod. its takes lots of guts to admit to be wrong.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ramana » 24 Apr 2017 21:04

Vikas, Hearts will change if fundamentals are in hand.


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