J&K News and Discussion - 2016

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ArjunPandit
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 27 Apr 2017 00:02

What can happen do if we abrogate 370,
J&K people and assembly:
1. stop taking our central funds: I am kidding, seriously!
2. pelt stones: They already do
3. Resort to terror tactics in Jammu/Rest of India: Well it will give us a good reason to neturalize this generation of jahils
4. Boycott Polls: For how long? They dont have economic & military and above all patience to proceed with ideals to sustain a campaign that can get them broader support.
5. Write to NYT, WP, WSJ: Our trash cans are anyways not getting lighter, in few years our publication houses will acquiring them

Papistan: What will papistan be able to do? The military calculus is in our favor on both defensive and offensive side

US: It will lecture us on hooman rights, but the newly built toilets have to be provided with toilet paper no?

Rest of World:
UN: I am sure we can live with a condemnation for our broader term and longer term interests. Security council seat is anyways not happening. OPEC/OIC: Will purr but beyond that no body can do anything, have to sell oil na. They will make noises but beyond pakistan and china they are as relevant as Liu is on Chinese forums.

I am quite confident that this will definitely happen in NDA 2
PS: If not earlier

brvarsh
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby brvarsh » 27 Apr 2017 00:13

At the end its all about clearly putting what separatists and their supporters or the incited crowd have to lose if they continue. If a problem comes to a point when separatists are successful in proving "we have nothing to lose" then it does not matter how we approach the problem. But if we tangibly show there is a lot then things come down to negotiating table directly or indirectly. At this time it appears the mood is across the border waits this utopic CPEC that solves all the problems so resisting a government that brings the development is all OK. Somewhere there is a missing realism.

ShauryaT
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ShauryaT » 27 Apr 2017 00:27

A Deshmukh wrote:art 370 requires RS support / majority. might get tricky. also I believe it requires JK assembly approval, which is more difficult.

without major changes - just do silent financial squeeze, and majority of KM will fall in line.
There are 24 seats for PoK, can be filled in by nomination. Arms can be twisted. Votes can be secured. An election can be held, where Kashmir candidates are disqualified. At the end of the day a sovereign nation can change its laws and India is no federation. Article 370 CLEARLY states it is temporary and the time has come to make that period lapse. Article 370 should have lapsed when the J&K state assembly lapsed. Trust our lawmakers and judges to be creative and comply to the will of the people - if the people so demand.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Rudradev » 27 Apr 2017 01:47

ShauryaT wrote:
A Deshmukh wrote:There are 24 seats for PoK, can be filled in by nomination. .


We have to approach this with the same degree of brazen narrative reconstruction as the Chingadyas in Tibet. See how the Chingadyas decide to rename places in Arunachal Pradesh at will? Next thing you know they will be appointing their own chosen Tibetan collaborators as representatives for Tawang, Walong etc. in the Tibetan Autonomous Region assembly. More than likely the Chingadyas have already nominated their own chosen Lamas-in-Absentia as the "lightful spilitual leaders" of monasteries in Arunachal Pradesh.

Similarly we need to rename Muzaffarabad as Adi Shankarapur, Mirpur as Gulabganj, Skardu as Kashyap Nagar and so on. Then fill the 24 seats for these regions with true Kashmiris in the mould of Yogi Adityanath, Subramanian Swamy, etc.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby SBajwa » 27 Apr 2017 02:10

SriJoy!!

There is no Gaza like situation and none of 300K army in Kashmir!! That's Bakistani lie!

All Modi needs to do is to get Mehbooba on line by explaining that Farooq Abdullah is behind all this (which he is as he lost election and is making his cadre do all this stone pelting stuff) and to put just the Kashmir valley under president rule., meaning no-internet, no-cell-phones and no-subsidies in Kashmir valley. They must earn their livelihood. That's it!!

These people are getting free food (via subsidies) and have nothing else to do but earn money by pelting stones!! MAKE THEM WORK FOR THEIR FOOD LIKE REST OF INDIANS DO!!!

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Rudradev » 27 Apr 2017 02:22

SriJoy wrote:
IMO, that is counter-productive. PoK is restive and they are slowly but surely organizing politically to draw attention to the fact that they are the forgotten region of Pakistan. There is discontent there. By changing their name to sanskritized names, we will be pushing them into Paki arms, not weaning them away from it.

.


Srijoy,

There is no significant indigenous population in PoK.

The Baltis are insignificant in number. The Occupied Valley and Mirpur are overrun with Pakjabis.

All in all the vast numbers of TSPA personnel, encamped terrorists hailing from heartland Pakistani tanzeems, and (these days) PLA personnel utterly overwhelm any population in PoK who can claim to be "native". No Article 370 ever applied on that side of the LOC, remember.

In light of this, "discontent" will amount to absolutely nothing more than (potentially) a few propaganda voices like Sering Hasnan (who will not protest if we adopt Sanskritized names for the region) .

It should be noted that even the feeble murmurs of discontent amongst Baltis in the late 1990s were stamped out by the ISI enlisting none other than Osama Bin Laden, and his International Islamic Front fighters, to conduct some efficient massacres of native Shias.

And even if the meager local population could be persuaded to take up armed resistance against the Pakistani state, then what? The Baluch rebellion of 1973 managed to muster some 60,000 armed revolutionaries and was utterly extinguished by brute military force, with nary a whisper of attention from the rest of the world. Thinly populated regions are at a distinct disadvantage when mounting insurrections against well-armed occupying powers. This is not Bangladesh, where the native Bengalis actually outnumbered all people from West Pakistan put together.

In light of all this, I find it hard to believe that the "natives" of PoK can (1) be successfully weaned away from Islamic Pakistan by the inducements of a foreign Kafir government and (2) once weaned, would have the strength to mount any significant resistance to Pakistani military occupation and demographic swamping.

PoK is a land which is good for mountaineering, pastoral farming, and hosting military installations or terrorist camps... that's about all. When it comes back to India it will be because we move in and take it... not because the fraction of its population who are actually "native" have anything to say about it.
Last edited by Rudradev on 27 Apr 2017 02:39, edited 2 times in total.

ShauryaT
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ShauryaT » 27 Apr 2017 02:32

SriJoy wrote:Well, right now the whole of Kashmir is a Gaza-like situation, where rest of Indians (like Israelis) are at peril. So i see partitioning Kashmir into Gilgit-Baltitstan, Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh de-couples the major portions of Kashmir from its 'Gaza-like' fate and accelerates integration of Jammu and Ladakh with Rep. of India.
As I said earlier, all these is looser talk (sorry SriJoy nothing personal) and a pre-cursor to a partition. Have seen this story before. No more partitions, not even soft one's based on 2NT. If blood has to spill on the matter, let it.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Rudradev » 27 Apr 2017 02:37

Dividing Kashmir undermines the validity of the Instrument of Accession. ALL of the Princely State of J&K, under the terms of the India Independence Act (1947), belongs to India.

It also undermines the UNCIP resolutions of Aug 13, 1948 and Jan 1, 1949. These are the resolutions which declare that ALL of Pakistan's forces must exit ALL parts of the entire princely state of J&K for a plebiscite to proceed under Indian auspices. It is because Pakistan contravened the terms of these two resolutions that the idea of plebiscite (and, by extension, of "popular support") can be dismissed as dead and buried.

It also undermines the 1956 ratification by the J&K Assembly of the Instrument of Accession of ALL the territories of the Princely State of J&K with the Union of India as legally binding, irrevocable, and final.

So if one is actually going to care whether the "world" sees Kashmir as "politically disputed", dividing J&K is a non-starter. ALL of India's claims of legal legitimacy rest upon its persistence as an undivided entity that acceded to India in the first instance.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ramana » 27 Apr 2017 02:38

ramana wrote:Chetak, Suppose by magic I give you Lahore to govern and it has 90 Assy seats. How would you do it?

Just an exercise.


Anyone else?

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Rudradev » 27 Apr 2017 02:41

Ramana, the question is not clear.

You give me Lahore to govern as what? A sort of "Kalingrad" pocket within Pakistan? And "90 Assembly seats" in which assembly?

What am I trying to achieve in this scenario?

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Rudradev » 27 Apr 2017 02:44

Bhai, how is it 'loser' talk ?! What does India gain by keeping Kashmir intact ? I already pointed out what we gain by splitting Kashmir up:
a) Dilutes Pakistan's so-called claim
b) Puts Dards-Baltis closer to us politically
c) Permanently de-couples Jammu and Ladakh from Kashmir. Forever. even 300 years from now, if kashmir wanted independence 'Scottish style referendum', it affects a tiny fraction of the land.

So what do we gain by keeping Kashmir intact ?



Srijoy,

a) It actually strengthens Pakistan's claim by invalidating the territorial extent of the Princely State of J&K, which acceded to India in the first place.

b) There are not enough Dards-Baltis to make a difference. There will be no Mukti Bahini type movement in play here no matter how close they feel to us politically.

c) There will be no referendum 300 or 1000 years from now. This is not the United Kingdom. It is the Union of India. States, or parts of states, do not get to be independent as and when they feel like. Not even a tiny fraction of Indian land is negotiable. Period.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Rudradev » 27 Apr 2017 02:52

SriJoy wrote:
PS: What is valid today, may not be the case 100 years from now. 100 years ago, nobody could concievably see an independent Scotland, now,we may very well see an independent scotland by 2020. So never say never. We don't know how the political climate will change in the future. If conditions are right, i can see seperatism in other parts of India in a Scottish-English sense of the word, in the distant future. Its not impossible!


Srijoy, of course anything is possible. But would you buy an insurance policy specifically against a twisted ankle 80 years from now? If you are going to be thinking along those lines, better to be thinking of cancer, heart disease, stroke and so on.

If at some future date, parts of India have decided, and are able, to ask for separation from the Union of India... that will mean that the Union of India will have suffered a critical, systemic failure. And that we will be facing far bigger problems than dividing up J&K today could ever hope to solve.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby SBajwa » 27 Apr 2017 03:00

SriJoy

You are comparing grapes with Mangoes. India is not England (who only arose from 1600 - 1940s) and has 50000 years of longer history! We will learn zero/nada/zilch by comparing us and following such leech of the world countries!! We need to learn from our own history!

India is unique and we must have our own unique decisions! The answer is

1. Remove Personal Law and make one law for everybody (marriage, criminal, inheritance, business, information, etc)
2. let people buy land and gift army/airforce/navy/police/etc lands in Kashmir valley., land of which is fit and ready for lots of good quality fruits like Grapes, Peaches, Almonds, etc., many farmers from Punjab/Haryana/Rajasthan are spending money and buying lads in Georgia, Argentina, Australia, New Zealand and would be more than happy to settle closer to home! Check youtube for Indian farmers moving out of India due to small landholdings and belief in their hard work.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Rudradev » 27 Apr 2017 03:22

SriJoy wrote:
I still don't see why you'd think it'd affect the instrument of accession if we divide Kashmir, since the concept of successor states being held accountable to the treaties signed by its predecessor state is a very long-standing valid precedence in world politics.




A critical pillar of our legal claim to J&K resides in the fact that India has done everything possible to retain for Jammu & Kashmir the original form and extent specified by its pre-1947 boundaries, i.e. to safeguard the territorial integrity of the Princely State as it acceded to us. Whereas Pakistan has continuously attempted to change J&K in terms of political boundaries and demographic composition (thereby putting it in the wrong, by the terms and conditions of the India Independence Act 1947).

Right now the ONLY reason why the original state of J&K stands divided at all, is because Pakistan:
(a) invaded the state in contravention of its standstill agreement, thereby materially altering its boundaries;
(b) did not comply with UNCIP resolutions, which clearly declare that the presence of Pakistani forces constitute a "material change" from the pre-1947 situation, and require that Pakistan must vacate the state in its entirety to restore the pre-1947 situation;
(c) handed over 5800 sq.km. of the state to the PRC in 1963, thereby compounding unlawful alteration of the state's boundaries;
(d) is now attempting to confer provincial status on the Northern Areas under the name "Gilgit Baltistan", and separate this territory administratively from the section of Kashmir Valley and Jammu that it occupies.

In contrast, India has endeavoured at every turn, and to whatever extent possible within the ambit of political control that it exercises, to retain J&K at the full extent of its pre-1947 boundaries and govern it in the form of a unified political entity.

India's compliance with the letter of the Instrument of Accession is unimpeachable, UNTIL it starts trying to subdivide the portion of J&K under its own control. Once that happens, the divided territories of Indian-controlled "J&K" have no better legal claim to authentic successorship of the original princely state of J&K, than do the portions of that state controlled by Pakistan or China.
Last edited by Rudradev on 27 Apr 2017 03:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Rudradev » 27 Apr 2017 03:24

SriJoy wrote: If you wish to learn from our own history- the lesson is all the more pertinent that we have, for most our history, been fragmented along ethno-linguistic lines !


Forgive me, but this is an interpretation of "our history" that is better suited to JNU than BRF.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Rudradev » 27 Apr 2017 03:35

Because it superimposes (irrationally) upon the Indian civilization-state, criteria for "nationhood" borrowed from post-Westphalian Europe.

This is a flagrantly distortive lens typically applied to Indian history by Western Indologists: Churchillian and Marxist alike.
Last edited by Rudradev on 27 Apr 2017 03:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ShauryaT » 27 Apr 2017 03:48

SriJoy wrote:
ShauryaT wrote:As I said earlier, all these is looser talk (sorry SriJoy nothing personal) and a pre-cursor to a partition. Have seen this story before. No more partitions, not even soft one's based on 2NT. If blood has to spill on the matter, let it.


Bhai, how is it 'loser' talk ?! What does India gain by keeping Kashmir intact ? I already pointed out what we gain by splitting Kashmir up:
a) Dilutes Pakistan's so-called claim
b) Puts Dards-Baltis closer to us politically
c) Permanently de-couples Jammu and Ladakh from Kashmir. Forever. even 300 years from now, if kashmir wanted independence 'Scottish style referendum', it affects a tiny fraction of the land.

So what do we gain by keeping Kashmir intact ?
A: No, it strengthens Pakistan as now they lay claim to only the part they want based on the 2NT. That is what the Chenab plan is.
B. The only way to get Baltis closer politically is through a political union secured by military forces
C. 300 Years! You must have real confidence for what the future entails. Let me share something. In 1946, my ancestors had NO clue that within one year, they will loose all their homeland and kicked out. They had been there for 1000's of years and for over 1000 years with muslims amongst its mix.

There is nothing that has the power to take Kashmir from us, except our political will. You are giving it up, even before the first shot is fired. That is how nations and empires are lost. By keeping it intact we are giving ourselves a higher chance of integration using demographics, geography, economics and political structures.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Rudradev » 27 Apr 2017 03:55

SriJoy wrote:

So you are saying, if nation A accedes to nation B, nation B accepts and then re-organizes 'now sub-nation A' into different political grouping, it invalidates the accession of A into B ?


Is it honestly your contention that the accession of J&K to India is as simple an issue as that?

I feel your point c) is superfluous : yes, giving away territory of nation A to nation C, by nation B is altering the accession. But i am not arguing giving away J&K territory to any other sovereign. So long as India remains sovereign, then sovereign integrity of acceding state has not been altered.


Pakistan's giving away Shaksgam Valley to China further compounds the illegality of Pakistan's claim on J&K by underscoring India's determination, by contrast, to preserve the territorial integrity of J&K.

I think no matter how India subdivides Kashmir, our legal claim to the original territory of J&K is unimpeachable due to the fact that J&K acceded to India, while PoK and Aksai Chin have no basis to separate claim, under 'inheritance of legal obligations' protocol. They'd be legally seen as successor states of J&K, under Indian legal claim stemming from accession of the parent polity.


Absolutely not.

India regards Kashmir as an unresolved issue, per the 1994 Parliamentary Resolution. ALL of J&K belongs to us. That is based on the fact that ALL of J&K acceded to India but some of it remains illegally occupied by other countries.

This makes it a very different case than, say, if India decided to reorganize the erstwhile princely states of Mysore or Gwalior. These acceded to us in their entirety and no unresolved or disputed issues continue to obtain regarding their accession.

If we do not control all of J&K, we obviously do not control all of its putative successor states. Only when we actually exercise control over all of the territory of J&K can we possibly claim to adjudicate the successorship of all administrative territories arising from its subdivision.

Also, by your logic, wouldn't repealing article 370 have the same effect as you claim, from legal birfucation of J&K ?


By no means. Article 370 came after the fact of accession, and did not alter the territorial integrity of J&K one way or another. Neither would its abrogation.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Rudradev » 27 Apr 2017 04:00

SriJoy wrote:
But all modern concept of nationhood stems from treaty of Westphalia.


Sigh. You are new here. May I suggest starting at the beginning of the "Western Universalism" thread, and going through the references provided in the many years' worth of posts. In addition, a thread entitled "The Bharatiya..." has some good resources.

Beyond BRF, the work of Rajiv Malhotra is highly instructive.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby sudeepj » 27 Apr 2017 04:22

SriJoy wrote:
sudeepj wrote:
Breaking Kashmir up and separating the valley will lead to a Gaza like situation. A perpetual conflict blackhole. Its better to have 6 Pandit enclaves within, one in each district, which can expand outwards to accommodate well armed Biharis, Bhaiyyas, Jats, Reddys and Sardar jis to move there. The natural difference in proclivities will take care of the rest.


Well, right now the whole of Kashmir is a Gaza-like situation, where rest of Indians (like Israelis) are at peril. ...


Please dont argue for the sake of argument. Its only the 6 districts of the valley that are restive, there is no stone throwing in Jammu or Ladakh. Jammu and Ladakh should be rid of this monkey on their backs, but the way to do it is to keep the state intact nominally, so we have a demographic claim on the entire state, while giving them maximum autonomy rights with the unified state of Kashmir. Their own assemblies, their share of monies, their own laws etc.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ShauryaT » 27 Apr 2017 05:53

SriJoy wrote:
Rudradev wrote:Because it superimposes upon the Indian civilization-state, criteria for "nationhood" borrowed from post-Westphalian Europe.

This is a highly distorting lens typically applied to Indian history by Western Indologists: Churchillian and Marxist alike.


But all modern concept of nationhood stems from treaty of Westphalia. We haven't seen any decisive evidence of the concept of a nation-state in ancient or medieval India either- our concept was a civilizational concept, similar to 'Europe, Arabia, Asia, etc'.
I have read a lot of Indian history, but i've never encountered the concept of a nation- where a section of land defined by physical boundaries is sovereign unto itself, irrespective of who rules what and where, in Indic context, prior to Europeans' arrival. What we have instead, is the definition of a 'culture-zone' with physical boundaries with multiple sovereigns- akin to a 'continent' type identity.

I am happy to be wrong on this though!
The European concept of nationhood stems from treaty of Westphalia. My first question is who is Europe to define our concepts for us? Next, you are using the term civilization too loosely, it has specific meaning to understand world orders. Arabia is not a civilization and neither is Europe and certainly not Asia. The question is not how many sub divisions and organizational structures this land has had. Our geographical civilizational contours have been well known since ages. The modern shape of a "state" with hard boundaries itself is a fairly new and yet evolving concept with mutations. India can be best understood to be a core civilizational state that exists with other states in the region forming its traditional civilizational boundaries. There is nothing sacrosanct about these boundaries and they are meant to evolve over the long term. The only question that needs to be asked, is this civilization getting stronger or weaker and where weak, how does one arrest its weakness and make it stronger. Cannot let the civilization get weaker in the core state itself.

For a philosophical understanding of the matter, recommend reading the works of Sri Aurobindo. For a Hindu view of Islam read Sri Ram Swaup or KS Lal. For more contemporary primer on J&K and not from an ideologically wedded source read this

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ShauryaT » 27 Apr 2017 07:34

A nation is an artificial construct with no clear, precise and sustained definition on what it constitutes. In effect, it is a WIP and not a very long living construct. The republic of India is a nation-state due to its European encounters and thus molded in their prism. Nothing sacrosanct about it but it does exist as such today. Furthermore, you are wrong to say civilizations do not form armies. NATO is one example of an army that serves the "western" civilization anchored by its core state the USA. The PLA fighting for N. Korea was on the surface about communist ideology and geo-politics but deeply about the confucian civilization allying with one another and this alliance still continues long after communism is dead. Russia once jettisoned of its communist constructs sees itself for what it has been a core state of the Orthodox civilization. Granted there are exceptions in the model but the broad contours to understand are there.

In order to think in civilization terms one has to decolonize the mind from half baked European influenced constructs, and hence RD's suggestion on the other threads. Once you do so, you will start seeing India as less of a nation state and more in terms of a civilizational state.

What you are pointing to is the lack of a single historical "state" largely in "control" of most of the territories of civilizational India, then that would be true, at least for about 1400 years but this obsession with a single state is a reflection of power and a state organized society as the western world understands them. There is a simple and clear reason for such and it is do with our civilization values where power is only a means to an end and not an end in itself. Some other time on why this civilization failed to provide an organized response to an organized threat.

Coming to Kashmir, the issue I vociferously object to is a soft division of the state along lines, which weakens the nation-state and the civilization. To a degree, the modern requirement of a nation-state is also a requirement due to threats faced from outsiders and hence important to secure. My issue is not about Kashmir moving to become another province, state or even nation. It is about moving away from its civilizational core. Let that civilizational principle be restored and then give Kashmir Azadi or autonomy, I would be open.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Karthik S » 27 Apr 2017 10:08

A Andrabi has been arrested in Srinagar last night.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby DrRatnadip » 27 Apr 2017 10:12

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/three-s ... 390384.cms

SRINAGAR: Two soldiers and an army captain were martyred this morning after terrorists attacked an Army camp in Jammu and Kashmir's Kupwara district, reported Times Now.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Karthik S » 27 Apr 2017 10:14

One more sugrical strike on a bigger scale necessary. Time to take back PoK.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby madhu » 27 Apr 2017 10:51

It is sad that day in and day out there has been so much unrest in J&K. stone throwing to terrorist attack. Even though the gun across the border has fallen silent but internally stone pelters have increased. I think this is a new phenomena that was almost insignificant during UPA time.
Is the strategy of offensive defense really working? Or has it back fired? Why India is not helping Baloch moral support just like Paki’s do to J&K?
We need to blead the pakis fast to stop this nonsense else this will keep continuing

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 27 Apr 2017 11:24

Boss stone pelting was very much there during UPA, in 2010 and 2011 stone pelting meant the valley was off limits. It is now just having the INC NC and Lefts full backing. Truth is many Kashmiris treat India like SL and Nepal. Their leadders want to keep playing Pakistan, CHina up to get better deals from New Delhi. We need patience, anther 10 years with tremendous improvement in our Military capability. The Paki bravado from CPEC will become exposed. Predators prey when they think prey is weak and legacy of 2004-14 will be there till 2020 or so. Once the window closes things will normalize. The foolishness of 2004 and 2009 will be felt for some time.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby nam » 27 Apr 2017 15:48

Pakis are attacking artillery units, as our artillery is what causes PA the most pain. The earlier attacks were on artillery units as well.

This is no random attack.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Bart S » 27 Apr 2017 17:41

ShauryaT wrote:
Bart S wrote:No, the way to go about it would be to make Ladakh and Jammu and perhaps North Kashmir as regular states with normal democratic governments and no Article 370. The valley would have to be governed by the central government till the radicalism is gone or the demographics have been altered by settling people from the rest of the country or the jihadis have been pushed across the border to join their Pakroach brethren. At the moment the valley is eating up a disproportionate share of the budget and mindshare to the detriment of the other regions. Irrespective of separatism, that isn't fair in the first place to people outside the valley.
Even at a practical level, changing the demographics of the whole state is easier than changing it just in the valley. The start has to be made from changing the demographics of Rajouri and Doda, the muslim dominated districts of Jammu. The valley is 98% muslim the whole state is at 67%. Quite frankly a similar exercise needs to undertaken in Rampur, UP and Mallapuram, Kerala and some of the border districts of Bengal and Dongri, Mumbai. The question is what will it take for the Hindu led state to compel muslims to move and then equally important "accept" muslims within their communities? This is the heart of 2NT. Destroy this separate community/ghetto business and you have put a dagger into 2NT.

Cannot have it both ways that we will not integrate but cry foul anyways. Some of these "solutions" proposed sound like a pre-cursor to a partition and then there will be some advice by some that it is better to hive off a cancerous limb, lest it damage the body. Hope this board rejects ANY notion of initial steps to a partition. Repeal article 370 should be the focus. Hope the state uses its powers to achieve integration based on a common cultural basis.

What is needed in the muslim community is the ability to separate the Koran from the Hadiths to allow a reinterpretation and reformation. Just like we Hindus reject parts of manu smriti as being irrelevant today, muslims have to make part of their scriptures irrelevant today. If Mohammed accepted the idea that there were past prophets, accepting the idea that there are future prophets too should not be a stretch, sorry i am going OT from topic here. But so many streams are connected and have multiple facets.


There is no need to change the demographics of any part of the state other than the valley. Or any other part of the country for that matter but that is off topic. The focus needs to be on the valley which is the part easiest for Pakistan to access and also the one that is causing 99% of the problems. Changing the demographics of the rest of the state is not only unnecessary but will not really address the issues of the valley.

There is no point in having Ladakh overrun by people from other states, or Jammu for that matter. It will just build resentment in patriotic Indians who have nothing against India. Of course, free flow of investment, investors and settlers from the rest of the country who bring money/skills/employment/enterpreneurship that is currently blocked by Article 370 must be welcomed.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Tejas.P » 27 Apr 2017 19:35

PTI reporting stone pelters gathered at the army camp in kupwara demanding bodies of fidayeen killed during attack. Army retaliated, killing one pelter.

Preliminary reports indicate attack was carried out by jaish e Mohammad.

GOI needs to wake up! Carry out strike options laid out by army brass and hit launch pads with artillery. I am sure we have good intel on the location of these camps, we just lack the will to do anything about it. It's ironic that we raise a hullabaloo on 'surgical strikes' when PA and it's proxies have routinely been carrying out pinpointed attacks on our assets in the valley

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Karthik S » 27 Apr 2017 19:44

Padmaja joshi‏Verified account @PadmajaJoshi

Hours after 3 soldiers martyred in Kupwara, mob gathers outside Army camp, demand bodies of terrorists killed


Am sure their demand will be met.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby SRoy » 27 Apr 2017 19:47

^^

Need to shoot half a dozen of them from the mob.
Coward govt. has emboldened these "mob".

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Karthik S » 27 Apr 2017 19:52

Coward indeed. I don't know what NM, doval are thinking, are they happy with our soldiers getting killed and humiliated, while he concentrates on winning elections.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Surya » 27 Apr 2017 20:03

All politicians saar at end of day.

Total arrogant silence will be all you will get

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby jamwal » 27 Apr 2017 20:09

Army fires on mob, one civilian jihadi killed.
http://www.jammulinksnews.com/newsdetai ... __one_dead

The Indian Army today opened fire on protesters gathered at the encounter site in Kupwara. One person has been killed in the incident and several injured. Jammu and Kashmir Police confirmed that a civilian has succumbed to bullet injuries near the encounter site. Four people have been injured. It is yet to be ascertained if they were injured due to the firing or due to clashes with the armed forces. Around 200 protesters gathered at the Army camp in Kupwara where three army personnel, including a captain, were killed by at least two terrorists. The protesters were demanding that the bodies of the terrorists be handed over to them.

Last edited by ramana on 27 Apr 2017 21:22, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited ramana

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ragupta » 27 Apr 2017 20:19

jamwal wrote:Army fires on mob, one civilian jihadi killed.
http://www.jammulinksnews.com/newsdetai ... __one_dead

The Indian Army today opened fire on protesters gathered at the encounter site in Kupwara. One person has been killed in the incident and several injured. Jammu and Kashmir Police confirmed that a civilian has succumbed to bullet injuries near the encounter site. Four people have been injured. It is yet to be ascertained if they were injured due to the firing or due to clashes with the armed forces. Around 200 protesters gathered at the Army camp in Kupwara where three army personnel, including a captain, were killed by at least two terrorists. The protesters were demanding that the bodies of the terrorists be handed over to them.



There has to be much more damage covert and overt, by at least a factor of 10 plus. this is the only language jehadis understand.
Last edited by ramana on 27 Apr 2017 21:22, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited. Ramana

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby SRoy » 27 Apr 2017 20:25

Karthik S wrote:Coward indeed. I don't know what NM, doval are thinking, are they happy with our soldiers getting killed and humiliated and mutilated, while he concentrates on winning elections.


There. Corrected for you. :(

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby sudeepj » 27 Apr 2017 20:36

SRoy wrote:^^

Need to shoot half a dozen of them from the mob.
Coward govt. has emboldened these "mob".


A half dozen were indeed shot! The current mobs are a result of past govts. encouraging soft separatism. The current govt. also guilty of same, but with this lot, at least there is an alternate voice asking for stronger measures within the power corridors. With the last govt. there was no hope at all, with anyone asking for stronger measures dismissed as a bigot, a racist, a hate monger and so on.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Bart S » 27 Apr 2017 20:41

Rudradev wrote:
SriJoy wrote:
I still don't see why you'd think it'd affect the instrument of accession if we divide Kashmir, since the concept of successor states being held accountable to the treaties signed by its predecessor state is a very long-standing valid precedence in world politics.




A critical pillar of our legal claim to J&K resides in the fact that India has done everything possible to retain for Jammu & Kashmir the original form and extent specified by its pre-1947 boundaries, i.e. to safeguard the territorial integrity of the Princely State as it acceded to us. Whereas Pakistan has continuously attempted to change J&K in terms of political boundaries and demographic composition (thereby putting it in the wrong, by the terms and conditions of the India Independence Act 1947).

Right now the ONLY reason why the original state of J&K stands divided at all, is because Pakistan:
(a) invaded the state in contravention of its standstill agreement, thereby materially altering its boundaries;
(b) did not comply with UNCIP resolutions, which clearly declare that the presence of Pakistani forces constitute a "material change" from the pre-1947 situation, and require that Pakistan must vacate the state in its entirety to restore the pre-1947 situation;
(c) handed over 5800 sq.km. of the state to the PRC in 1963, thereby compounding unlawful alteration of the state's boundaries;
(d) is now attempting to confer provincial status on the Northern Areas under the name "Gilgit Baltistan", and separate this territory administratively from the section of Kashmir Valley and Jammu that it occupies.

In contrast, India has endeavoured at every turn, and to whatever extent possible within the ambit of political control that it exercises, to retain J&K at the full extent of its pre-1947 boundaries and govern it in the form of a unified political entity.

India's compliance with the letter of the Instrument of Accession is unimpeachable, UNTIL it starts trying to subdivide the portion of J&K under its own control. Once that happens, the divided territories of Indian-controlled "J&K" have no better legal claim to authentic successorship of the original princely state of J&K, than do the portions of that state controlled by Pakistan or China.


When has the rest of the world or any body like the UN given a flying **** about our going by the book and adhering to the law? Do you think Pakistan cares? If 70 years of this nonsense has not rid of this delusion nothing will. The Nehruvian thinking of caring too much about what others thing and the so-called legality of various stuff has to be the first thing to go. If there is any reason why we have control over our portion of Kashmir its because nobody has been strong enough to take it from us, plain and simple. Nothing else matters, and we need to do what needs to be done irrespective of legal niceties (that we have given its due for 70 years).

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ramana » 27 Apr 2017 21:28

SriJoy, You are giving suggestions like 'Bell the Cat!'
Come up with some thing more feasible like poison the cat's food by means of vish mouse!

I suggest that the idea of potential for outsiders to intervene should be eliminated. Not just by fence but more active offence.
The kabila has made a historic mistake of seeking Pakistan. It now has a campground that can be razed.



BartS, I agree with your earlier posts that only the valley demographics need change. I also suggest the hope of the Valley separatists that Pakistan or US will come and give them their separation has to be killed.

MAD is lighting the fire on other side in POK.

Coming to your above post, Pak cares two hoots for UN as they had UK, US and now China 3 of the P-5 on their side.
In such circumstances the game is complex.


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