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J&K News and Discussion - 2016

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Rudradev
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Rudradev » 19 May 2017 20:22

rsangram wrote:

I had not changed my position and said that there will be only population transfer without partition. I would like for it to be so, and it can be our opening position, but in the end, I would settle for some parting of territory in exchange for total population transfer.

I hope that clarifies.


You fail to understand something really basic.

It is not yours to settle. The territory does not belong to you.

If you want to give your personal property to some random Muslim thug in the hope that he will spare your life during the next riot, nothing is stopping you. You can feel "reluctant/sad" about that, and do it if it alleviates your dhoti-shivering. No problem.

On the other hand, you do not get to propose that the Republic of India parts with ANY of its sovereign territory, for ANY reason. If I am not mistaken, proposing such a thing is already, in and of itself, a criminal act. Feeling "reluctant/sad" about a criminal act does not spare a person from facing its consequences.

{Self-edited. RSangram, I apologize for bringing in terms like "your XYZ's property", that was uncalled for.}
Last edited by Rudradev on 20 May 2017 01:10, edited 2 times in total.

shravanp
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby shravanp » 19 May 2017 20:53

Absolutely. Couple of things to bear in mind -

1. It's given, that during riot-war times, peacefools have historically ditched even their closest kafir friends.

2. It's also given that peacefools will never ever settle for any bargaining on acquiring land from kaafirs. They WILL encroach no matter what. Hence civilities/negotiations with them can be thrown out of the window. Even if they agree to cooperate, do consider it as an act of taqqiya for bidding their time for them to "come back" at later favorable time.

3. Kashmir is a total mismanagement by India, especially Congress. To me, it's because of step 1 and 2 done by Congoons and pseudo se c parties that pampered KMs so much that they can never be satisfied. Where-as Sikh armies from RanjitSingh took over Kashmir in very little time period. I don't see why that can still not happen today. Especially with India has spanking new fighter jets, top notch weaponry. "Might" always HAS worked with peacefools, and that's the only thing that we can hope for in future. A good rap on their knuckles can VERY EASILY fix Kashmir valley problems.

rsangram
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby rsangram » 19 May 2017 21:05

Rudradev wrote:
rsangram wrote:

I had not changed my position and said that there will be only population transfer without partition. I would like for it to be so, and it can be our opening position, but in the end, I would settle for some parting of territory in exchange for total population transfer.

I hope that clarifies.


You fail to understand something really basic.

It is not yours to settle. The territory does not belong to you.

If you want to give your father's property to some random Muslim thug in the hope that he will spare your life during the next riot, nothing is stopping you. You can feel "reluctant/sad" about that, and do it if it alleviates your dhoti-shivering. No problem.

On the other hand, you do not get to propose that the Republic of India parts with ANY of its sovereign territory, for ANY reason. If I am not mistaken, proposing such a thing is already, in and of itself, a criminal act. Feeling "reluctant/sad" about a criminal act does not spare a person from facing its consequences.




I did not know that you are an official interpreter and enforcer of Indian law. Please apprise your interpretation of Indian law to your bosses in the Indian government which is financing the security, hotel expenses, medical expenses, the travel expenses and other expenses of separatists like Geelani, Shah, Mirwaiz etc. Perhaps, government start financing my expenses too.

---Edited....

Don't get personal....
Last edited by ramana on 19 May 2017 21:57, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited by ramana.

Dipanker
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Dipanker » 19 May 2017 21:09

rsangram wrote:
Dipanker wrote:
You are off by ~200 millions in estimating hindu's population of the subcontinent. India's current population is 1.25 billion and ~80% are hindus, that mean in India alone there are 1000 million hindus. Bangladesh has 12% Hindus and Pakistan ~2%, thus total population of Hindus on the subcontinent will be around 1025 million. If you include the Sikhs+Jains+Buddhists+Animist, another 40-50 millions can be added to 1025 million. Muslims are around 560 million or about 35% population of the subcontinent.


You are missing the larger point and trying to split hair, diverting attention from the main issue.

Anyway, here is a link to official Indian Census Data by religion

http://censusindia.gov.in/Census_And_You/religion.aspx



Pointing out a massive error of 200+ million isn't exactly splitting hair, a figure of 1025+ million in relation to about 560 million is quite a bit more substantial than a population of 800 million vis. a. vis 560 million.

As to your larger point, I don't subscribe to it.

Pakistan and Bangladesh are currently not part of India, so I don't particularly care at what rate their population is growing other than that Pakistan needs more Islam! Beside, their population can not grow indefinitely as they simply lack the land and water resources to grow enough food to support the population growth. They are have almost reached their upper limits. Bangladesh has been sensible about it and is doing a good job arresting population growth, Pakistan is learning its lesson the hard way.

Within India itself HIndus are ~1000 million, muslims ~200 million. Even at the current rate of growth and that can not be true, it will take several centuries before muslim population will catch up. More realistically the catching up will not happen because at that point population of India will have to be 3.5+ billion and such a vast population can not be supported given the resource constraints. The population will stabilize much before it reaches anything that absurd and when the population stabilizes muslims population will quite a bit smaller than hindus population by about 25% to %75 given the the current trend.

Giving away more land is not an option for India, based on your logic when we incorporated Goa in 1963, we should have partitioned it and only absorbed the hindu partition of it and left the christian portion for the Portuguese , used similar logic to 1975 Sikkim's merger too.
Last edited by Dipanker on 19 May 2017 22:15, edited 2 times in total.

Supratik
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Supratik » 19 May 2017 21:30

For dhoti shiverers - India is geographically from the Khyber pass to Brahmaputra valley and from Gilgit to Kanyakumari. Study your own history and geography first. Know your land. Only then you can come up with strategy. Otherwise you will keep running all around the globe.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby SBajwa » 19 May 2017 21:38

I think if Deobandi madrass is banned along with total ban of Salafi/Ahle-Hadith/Wahabi/Tablighis that will be enough to turn the tide., along with encouraging people to become Barelvis/Shias/etc. It is a good thing that Zakir Naik is banned in India.

Literature/novels/movies/etc need to be made to show the various differences between all of the Islamic types.
Islam is not one but masquerades as "One Qaum" when fighting with non-muslims to make it a Muslim country., then they start fighting among themselves. This needs to be encouraged and supported.

for example
The current Sunnis-Saudis are destroying the Prophet's mosque/house/etc artifacts.
The Sunnis murdered the prophet's family and Hindus tried to save them.
etc and so forth.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby anupmisra » 19 May 2017 21:52

Supratik wrote:For dhoti shiverers - India is geographically from the Khyber pass to Brahmaputra valley and from Gilgit to Kanyakumari. Study your own history and geography first. Know your land. Only then you can come up with strategy. Otherwise you will keep running all around the globe.


If we want to bring in the "idea" of India, then that cultural boundary extends from Afghanistan to Burma to Sri Lanka to parts of Tibet. But, I don't want to split hairs.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Rudradev » 19 May 2017 22:00

self-delete
Last edited by Rudradev on 20 May 2017 01:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby bharotshontan » 19 May 2017 22:09

Encroaching on a 0%-Muslim Islam-banned Quran-banned nation is impossible. Any idiot from WB knows the bulk of the Muslim exponential growth is firstly from the local WB Muslims themselves, and secondly, the issue of illegal BD Muslim migrants is moot because a BD Muslim in Rajshahi has extended family in Maldah that they easily come over to. It is ironic considering that these districts of WB which make WB into 30% Muslim should never have been part of Bengali-Hindu-refuge WB to begin with. Maldah and Murshidabad were even hoisting Pakistan flags officially on 14th August 1947. Instead of dealing with a clean negligibly-Muslim state like how Punjab became post-partition, we still have to deal with Islamist filth in WB. It is like having a drop of urine in a glass of milk. No matter how small the urine in ppm, its effect on the overall quality of the glass of milk is naturally going to be disproportionately over-pronounced. What's the point of blaming CPM or Mamata, these people are simply working with the hand they are dealt.

India is btw, the baap ka property of Hindus and other Dharmics. So if Dharmics ask for a 2nd partition of India to save our selves, we have the right to do so. There is nothing inherently holy about a Constitution or political map if survival is at stake.

One thing I will make a note about, is regarding trendsetters and copiers. In everything in life, the copier is never going to be as good as the original. Whether you are in the West and you see blacks coming up with the newest fashion or music genre or slang every decade and then the whites copy 5 years later (and then our urban middle-class copies 30 years later), you will realize that the whites will never be as good as the blacks at break-dancing or rapping or jazz, and tertiarily Indians look at the whites as Gods when it comes to these things. So consider what are the items that Islam brings to Indics. What are the things that they are the trendsetters of? Take the example of the purdah. It is well known that the armies of Khilji etc used to whisk away Hindu ladies across to slave markets of Central Asia. As a result, across India starting from north, Hindus began purdah-fying to various levels. Bengali women wore ghomtas till 50 years back. But it doesn't stop from disproportionate rape of Hindus anyway. During Noakhali pogroms, it was considered natural that the Hindu women will be raped because Hindu women (despite purdah-fication) still care for their feminine beauty more than the Muslim tents, hence still doing things like hair removal, eyebrow threading, wearing eyeliner, learning some dances, etc. There are qualitative differences between us and them at a fundamental level, hence the different expressions. Wonder how many hijabis get raped in India. Why is it that a Nirbhaya gets raped by 4 Hindus and 1 Muslim? Never hear of a hijabi Fatima gets raped by 3 Muslims and 1 Hindu...means we've incorporated their ideas of purdah and victim-blaming and honor killing etc, but only to become the laughing stocks ourselves.
One more thing it seems like some of us have incorporated is this blind territorialism. Neither myself nor rsangram is saying to blindly give away lands. However, our end goal is not and should not be land. Land/dharti/bhoomi is also feminine, and Islam being the hyper-masculine imbalanced cult that it is, is on its rapacious ghazwa for more and more of it always. Land is THEIR goal, and has always been their goal. Our goal should be to get the urine out of the milk, and then build a nice firm lid over the top of the glass so urine never gets back in again. You can increase the quantity of fluid by incorporating more urine or maintaining the urine already within and letting it penetrate areas where it wasn't even there before (think of places like Orissa), but that is the urinified milk in you talking. If we are going to try and outdo Islam in Islam-ing, we will fail as we have failed for last 1000 years. Need novel methods of analysis and proactive action. India is millennia old, but Republic of India isn't. My allegiance is towards morality/Dharma first, RoI/GoI/Constitution etc are all facilitators in making this or not making this happen. My train of thought is not going to "break" India or anything like that. If more Hindus start to think this way, it will make for a less dhimmified Hindu mass and stronger India...

rsangram
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby rsangram » 19 May 2017 22:13

bharotshontan wrote:Encroaching on a 0%-Muslim Islam-banned Quran-banned nation is impossible. Any idiot from WB knows the bulk of the Muslim exponential growth is firstly from the local WB Muslims themselves, and secondly, the issue of illegal BD Muslim migrants is moot because a BD Muslim in Rajshahi has extended family in Maldah that they easily come over to. It is ironic considering that these districts of WB which make WB into 30% Muslim should never have been part of Bengali-Hindu-refuge WB to begin with. Maldah and Murshidabad were even hoisting Pakistan flags officially on 14th August 1947. Instead of dealing with a clean negligibly-Muslim state like how Punjab became post-partition, we still have to deal with Islamist filth in WB. It is like having a drop of urine in a glass of milk. No matter how small the urine in ppm, its effect on the overall quality of the glass of milk is naturally going to be disproportionately over-pronounced. What's the point of blaming CPM or Mamata, these people are simply working with the hand they are dealt.

India is btw, the baap ka property of Hindus and other Dharmics. So if Dharmics ask for a 2nd partition of India to save our selves, we have the right to do so. There is nothing inherently holy about a Constitution or political map if survival is at stake.

One thing I will make a note about, is regarding trendsetters and copiers. In everything in life, the copier is never going to be as good as the original. Whether you are in the West and you see blacks coming up with the newest fashion or music genre or slang every decade and then the whites copy 5 years later (and then our urban middle-class copies 30 years later), you will realize that the whites will never be as good as the blacks at break-dancing or rapping or jazz, and tertiarily Indians look at the whites as Gods when it comes to these things. So consider what are the items that Islam brings to Indics. What are the things that they are the trendsetters of? Take the example of the purdah. It is well known that the armies of Khilji etc used to whisk away Hindu ladies across to slave markets of Central Asia. As a result, across India starting from north, Hindus began purdah-fying to various levels. Bengali women wore ghomtas till 50 years back. But it doesn't stop from disproportionate rape of Hindus anyway. During Noakhali pogroms, it was considered natural that the Hindu women will be raped because Hindu women (despite purdah-fication) still care for their feminine beauty more than the Muslim tents, hence still doing things like hair removal, eyebrow threading, wearing eyeliner, learning some dances, etc. There are qualitative differences between us and them at a fundamental level, hence the different expressions. Wonder how many hijabis get raped in India. Why is it that a Nirbhaya gets raped by 4 Hindus and 1 Muslim? Never hear of a hijabi Fatima gets raped by 3 Muslims and 1 Hindu...means we've incorporated their ideas of purdah and victim-blaming and honor killing etc, but only to become the laughing stocks ourselves.
One more thing it seems like some of us have incorporated is this blind territorialism. Neither myself nor rsangram is saying to blindly give away lands. However, our end goal is not and should not be land. Land/dharti/bhoomi is also feminine, and Islam being the hyper-masculine imbalanced cult that it is, is on its rapacious ghazwa for more and more of it always. Land is THEIR goal, and has always been their goal. Our goal should be to get the urine out of the milk, and then build a nice firm lid over the top of the glass so urine never gets back in again. You can increase the quantity of fluid by incorporating more urine or maintaining the urine already within and letting it penetrate areas where it wasn't even there before (think of places like Orissa), but that is the urinified milk in you talking. If we are going to try and outdo Islam in Islam-ing, we will fail as we have failed for last 1000 years. Need novel methods of analysis and proactive action. India is millennia old, but Republic of India isn't. My allegiance is towards morality/Dharma first, RoI/GoI/Constitution etc are all facilitators in making this or not making this happen. My train of thought is not going to "break" India or anything like that. If more Hindus start to think this way, it will make for a less dhimmified Hindu mass and stronger India...


Very well put.

I could not agree more.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby rsangram » 19 May 2017 22:16

If I am called a traitor, the person who calls me a traitor is vile and uncouth.

Admins, please either edit all references to "traitor" and "baap" from all posts, or allow me to defend myself. Only fair.

So, I standby my post earlier, which is that Rudradev is not only vile and uncouth, he is terribly low class.

In any event, I do not want to respond to this vile and uncouth person any more and will ignore him from this point on and only respond to ordinary people like myself, which everyone pretty much is here, with one or two exceptions. I do not want to continue any further exchanges with this particular individual any more.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Rudradev » 19 May 2017 22:19

self-delete
Last edited by Rudradev on 20 May 2017 01:11, edited 1 time in total.

rsangram
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby rsangram » 19 May 2017 22:21

By the way, for the rest of us here.

Traitors are those who wish to continue the status quo, which is untenable. Traitors are those who dont feel the urgency of drastic change in trajectory. Traitors are those who have benefited from the anti-national dispositions since 1947 and now are dhoti shivering, at the prospects of being found out and dealt with, using brutal surgery.

Hindus are not fodder and they cannot be fooled anymore. They will rise from the ashes and the first thing they will do is smash the traitors and status quo, on their way to first self preservation and fortification, and then embark on a 1000 year battle to reclaim all lost territories from Afghanistan to Indonesia. In the end, Indonesia will be Hindu and not Islamic, and Islam will be reduced to a handful of goat herders in or around Aqaba.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Rudradev » 19 May 2017 22:25

^^
Hindus will "rise from the ashes" of their own house, which they burned down to get rid of the rats living in it. :mrgreen:

Because some supposedly "Dharmic" people, struck with a perennial failure of imagination and a permanent inability to come up with real solutions, will continue to peddle the myth that self-mutilation is the best guarantee of self-preservation.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby rsangram » 19 May 2017 22:31

And all the Indian muslims, who provide the "strategic depth" to the Kshimiri separatists, please prepare to pack your bags and move to the "Zannat on this earth", the land of "Kashmiriyat" and live forever with your Kashmiri brothers' whose Azaadi you so secretly wish.

Also, let the message go out to all Kashmiri Muslims of all variety, shape and form.

370 will go, whether you stay in India or not. If you dont stay in India, you will have to take all Indian muslims and possibly a whole lot of Pakistani muslims too. There is no way in hell, you can keep Kashmir for Kashmiris. Islam does not recognize a Kashmiri. It only recognizes a MOMIN.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Rudradev » 19 May 2017 22:31

By the way,

http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries ... ct1967.htm

The Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act, 1967
Act No. of Year: Act No. 37 of 1967

2. Definitions. In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires,-

(a) "association" means any combination or body of individuals;

(b) "cession of a part of the territory of India" includes admission of the claim of any foreign country to any such part ;

(c) "prescribed" means prescribed by rules made under this Act;

(d) "secession of a part of the territory of India from the Union" includes the assertion of any claim to determine whether such part will remain a part of the territory of India ;

(e) "Tribunal" means the Tribunal constituted under section 5;

(f) "unlawful activity", in relation to an individual or association, means any action taken by such individual or association (whether by committing an act or by words, either spoken or written, or by signs or by visible representation or otherwise),-

(i) which is intended, or supports any claim, to bring about, on any ground whatsoever, the cession of a part of the territory of India or the secession of a part of the territory of India from the Union, or which incites any individual or group of individuals to bring about such cession or secession;

1 Subs. by Act 24 of 1969, s. 2, for sub-section (2). The Act comes into force in the State of Jammu and Kashmir on 1.9.1969, vide Notifn. No. G.S.R. 2098, dated 30.8.1969, Gazette of India, Exty., Part II, Sec. 3(i), page 615.

(ii)which disclaims, questions, disrupts or is intended to disrupt the sovereignty and territorial integrity of India ;


Admins, take note. It may only be an "adharmic status quo" but it's backed by the full force of the law.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby rsangram » 19 May 2017 22:37

The unfinished business of partition is not Kashmir, it is Population Transfer.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Rudradev » 19 May 2017 22:42

It is very "Dharmic" to insist that the ideal solution to "unfinished business of partition" is a second partition at the expense of our own land.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Supratik » 19 May 2017 22:45

Why complain when you started this nonsense? You are not a traitor but what you are doing is dhoti shivering. You have an intruder who has entered your house and occupied your first floor and ground floor and all you want to do is go hide in the basement and lock the door so that the intruder does not evict you any further. That is a defeatist mindset. Tomorrow you are going to go and hide in the toilet and hope you are not evicted from there. If you were even half as aggressive as you are faking you would desperately want to take over your house back. The Muslims whom you talk about - when they invaded had a vast land in front of them populated by hundreds of millions of Hindus. They didn't run away but the occupied the land for hundreds of years. They are far more brave than you are.

Second, as I mentioned you have a poor sense of history and geography. 70 years back we didn't control majority of the geographical territory of cultural India. For centuries. Today we occupy 85% of our core areas. We control vast territories in J&K that were in 1947 Muslim majority. Who knows what is going to happen in another 500 years.

Anup, I am not talking about British India but geo-cultural India. Afghanistan was multi-religious.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Supratik » 19 May 2017 22:48

Partition destroyed the Punjabi, Potohari, Bengali, Sindhi communities. You want a repeat of that. You are probably sitting somewhere in Lucknow eating kabab and having fancy thoughts. If you are that brave move to Srinagar.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Rudradev » 19 May 2017 22:54

self-delete
Last edited by Rudradev on 20 May 2017 01:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Rudradev » 19 May 2017 23:16

bharotshontan wrote:...
My allegiance is towards morality/Dharma first
...



Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the first principles of what you are claiming allegiance to.

bharotshontan wrote:However, our end goal is not and should not be land. Land/dharti/bhoomi is also feminine, and Islam being the hyper-masculine imbalanced cult that it is, is on its rapacious ghazwa for more and more of it always. Land is THEIR goal, and has always been their goal.


Then you would understand that our relationship with Bhoomi has nothing to do with competing with Islam for a "goal". We do not aim to "own" her or possess her, but it is our dharma to serve as her stewards, and to preserve her from the defilement of those who would enslave and exploit her.

Adharmic forces have ALWAYS been on a ghazwa to seize and subjugate land. This was the case with Hiranyaksha just as it is the case with Zakir Naik or Hafiz Saeed. At the time of Hiranyaksha, it is said, Vishnu manifested as Varaha avatar to rescue Bhoomidevi from his subjugation. Vishnu did not do this so that he could "own" Bhoomidevi instead of Hiranyaksha... but to free her from the clutches of the adharmic.

How "dharmic" would it have been for Varaha to arrive at a "negotiated settlement" with Hiranyaksha, such that the Asura could have Bhoomidevi's right arm and left leg as long as he promised never, ever to covet any other part of her?

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Vikas » 19 May 2017 23:32

Do we seriously wish to consider giving away some more land to Islamic Jehadis in the hope of 'Peace in our times'.
What sins Xtians have committed not deserve their own share of Land from Bharat ?

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Gagan » 20 May 2017 00:38

Karthik S wrote:
NIA begins probe against Hurriyat leaders for receiving money from Pak, LeT


http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... E0PaL.html


Hopefully this will be taken to its logical conclusion.

It won't be.
After knowing this, and so much more, 40+ years of tapping phone calls, a million confessions from captured terrorists / OGWs/Ikhwans, still these guys get money, security, VIP treatment, from GoI.
This sting only lets the aam junta know a little bit. R&AW, and MI, know this and a lot more.

This will end up being used as a stick to make them scurry for cover for the time being.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby shravanp » 20 May 2017 00:46

Sorry rsangram, but entire gist of your post (minus the sophistry) comes out to look like "Give them land, and we buy peace".

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Gagan » 20 May 2017 00:48

There is no need to use land for peace.
There is a need to take away every inch of J&K from them. Only then will this problem stop.

GoI won't do this anytime soon I fear.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby salaam » 20 May 2017 02:01

Current India is not what it was for millennial till 1989.

This is no more socialist utopian wonderland of all being forced to be poor with the pigs learning to walk on two legs.

One shouldn't start a fight which can't be won. Finally, we have a leader who knows the various JaiChand's and there works. Give more time, we might get more land and make people dance (just like they are forced to do in lizard land).

sanjaykumar
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby sanjaykumar » 20 May 2017 03:01

India needs to learn that it is much easier to fight Pakistan to retain the valley in Gilgit than in Srinagar.

brvarsh
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby brvarsh » 20 May 2017 03:44

History has shown we have never bought peace ever by giving away our land. The only time there has been peace is when we have expanded. Congress in parts since 1989 has done more damage to our national security than any thing else. Ironically they completely misunderstood the extent of the problem in Kashmir. Its now a high time to separate those who are not part of this Islamic Jihad from those who are and state partition is one of them to start with. India now has a valid reason to do so.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby amit » 20 May 2017 05:21

I'd like to ask Rsangram a simple question. Does he think every single Indian Muslim or to make it simpler every single Indian of the Muslim faith who are residents of the state of J&K would happily agree to this "population transfer for peace" scenario?

Rsangram I hope you understand that behind the feel-good "dharmic" sophistry that you are sprouting lies a deep racial bias. In short you are saying the loyalty of every single Indian Muslim is suspect and given a chance and a new "homeland" they would happily abandon India and settle there.

You are essentially pi**ing on the great contributions of Indians who are Muslims by faith like Kalam Sir, AR Rahman, Mohamad Kaif (you should follow his Twitter handle), Zaheer Khan and others. You are doing the same with the Muslim soldiers who laid down their lives for the country like the young officer brutally murdered in Kashmir recently.

In short I know it's easy to get a high by sprouting sophistry on an Internet forum using an anonymous handle. But it only shows that the person who is doing that hasn't thought things through. And you are not the first one to go down this path on this forum. Neither will you be the last. But be prepared to be called out for it.

SSridhar
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby SSridhar » 20 May 2017 07:04

Pakistan may be propping up new terror outfit in Kashmir, feel intel agencies - Bharti Jain, ToI
The rising dissonance between Kashmiri separatists and terrorists based in the Valley on the one hand and Pakistan-based terrorist commanders and cadres in Kashmir on the other has led Indian agencies to suspect that terror masterminds across the border may be covertly planning a new terrorist organisation in J&K, with focus on ex-Hizbul Mujahideen commander Zakir Musa.

According to intelligence sources, multiple statements over the past two weeks by Musa, the self-styled successor of slain Hizbul leader Burhan Wani, Lashkar-e-Taiba, Kashmiri separatists and United Jehad Council chief Syed Salahuddin, coupled with images, videos and audio clips circulated on social media, point to "a widening conflict between key stakeholders of violence in the Valley".

Intelligence sources told TOI Pakistan may be attempting a repeat of its Kashmir strategy of the 1990s, when the only terror organisation — the Jammu & Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) — was supplanted and eventually replaced by many new outfits by 1993-94.

"The case for Pakistan encouraging a new terror organisation in Kashmir, with complete deniability for itself, is strong. Musa is speaking a new anti-separatist, anti-Hizb and anti-Pakistan line, targeted at the Kashmiri youth. He is advocating 'Islamist uprising for freedom of Kashmir', said an officer.

On May 3-4, photographs of nine masked militants with a black flag similar to that of terror group Islamic State were displayed on social media in J&K. However, unlike the IS flag, the one in the image only had Islamic Kalima inscribed with an AK-47 insignia below —the difference, agencies believe, reflecting the desire of local terrorists to remain distinct from the IS brand.

Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Taiba as well as PoK-based Hizbul supreme commander Salahuddin, in statements issued on May 10 and 12, respectively, denounced the images.

They claimed they had nothing to do with the IS and those waving IS flags and requested parents of Kashmiri youths as well as the youths themselves to avoid such influences.

On May 8, separatists Syed Ali Shah Geelani, Mirwaiz Umer Farooq and Yasin Malik came together to counter the impression that the Kashmir movement was going the IS way. Agencies suspect they are concerned about their declining relevance in Kashmir and are worried that their outreach to international institutions may suffer if they they get overtly linked to violence.

On May 12, Musa issued an audio message, threatening to behead separatist leaders at Srinagar's Lal Chowk for describing the movement as a freedom struggle. He claimed the movement was totally Islamic and based on "shariah and shahadat". Hizbul was quick to distance itself from Musa's views.

On May 15, Musa issued another audio message, dissociating from Hizbul Mujahideen. He paid his respect to al-Qaida but made no reference to IS. He criticised those who needed Pakistan to wage their freedom struggle.

India suspects Pakistani agencies were trying to rebrand Kashmir struggle as "Islamist uprising for liberation of Kashmir" since the time of Burhan Wani. It took Pakistan 10 months after Wani's killing to reorganise the branding campaign, focused on Musa, an intelligence source claimed.

Hari Seldon
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Hari Seldon » 20 May 2017 07:31

Seems like we're OK with a de facto partition on our soil (just visit any IM ghettos in *any* tier I or even II city), just not a de jure one.

/just sayin', std disclaimers...

Kakkaji
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Kakkaji » 20 May 2017 08:37

Posting in full:

Govt rules out dual policy on militants

Srinagar, May 19: Defence minister Arun Jaitley today pledged an iron-fist policy on both foreign and local militants, effectively rejecting calls for a distinction between the two categories that grew after Hizbul commander Burhan Wani's killing last year.

"It is very clear that terrorism and militancy are aimed against the Indian state, its sovereignty and the people of Jammu and Kashmir. The effect of their actions is that besides security personnel, it is local citizens who are losing their lives. Therefore, those who take to violence of this magnitude will certainly be accountable for their actions," Jaitely told reporters here in response to a question on whether such a distinction should be made.

Wani's death in an encounter last July had triggered an unprecedented unrest that left nearly 100 civilians dead in alleged security forces' firing, prompting many to call for a humane approach towards local militants.

Even chief minister Mehbooba Mufti had in October last year referred to Kashmiri militants as "local boys"."I request the police to try to bring them back to their homes. Instead of them being killed in encounters, if it is possible to bring them back, make them a part of the mainstream, give them bats, balls and good education, instead of guns."

Official sources said Jaitley, who was on a two-day visit to the Valley, had directed the security top brass to go all out against militants despite the increasing hurdles in catching them. The forces are finding it difficult to conduct anti-militancy operations as residents are coming out in hordes to engage the troops in clashes, giving the rebels a chance to escape. A number of residents have lost their lives during these clashes.

Jaitley said the government would like the average citizen in Jammu and Kashmir, irrespective of his political views, to be on the Indian side. "But as far as those who are killing people, we can't extend the same facility to them. They have to be treated as a serious insurgency problem and dealt with accordingly."

The minister ruled out the possibility of addressing the "sentiments and aspirations of the people in Jammu and Kashmir" as long as peace eludes the state.


"There are sentiments of people in every state in the country. These sentiments have to be addressed. But at the end of the day, the current situation emerges when you take to violence, when you take to arms and you start killing security forces and your own people. You unleash a cycle which does not stop. The aspiration will have to be addressed when the state is in a peaceful format."

Jaitley said the state's energy could not always be devoted solely to combating violence. "The resources meant for economic development are today being used essentially for security. Who is to be blamed for unleashing this era of violence?"


While the forces have been directed to continue operations against militants with vigour, Jaitley stressed the need for both security drives and citizen-friendly measures. "There is a section which will have to be dealt with security measures and there is section which will have to be dealt with citizen-friendly measures. That is what we are trying to do."

The minister claimed the separatists were being funded to create unrest, burn schools, kill people and destroy public property. "Their actions are a conspiracy not only against the Indian state but also against the average resident of Kashmir Valley. I am sure the concerned agencies of the government will take whatever action is needed in this matter."

Asked what action had been taken over the incident in which a youth was tied to the bonnet of an army jeep and driven around as a human shield during polls to the Srinagar parliamentary seat last month, Jaitley said: "Let us not forget that the army is a responsible institution and the army is saving various people who were involved in election process as also a large crowd of protestors who had gathered there."

Earlier, the defence minister visited the Line of Control and met troops and officers in the Rampur sector of north Kashmir's Uri. He complimented the soldiers "for the level of preparedness and enthusiasm". "Our soldiers are fully confident that they would not allow any form of infiltration to take place. And if there is any effort at any form of ceasefire violation, our soldiers will give adequate response," he said.

"The aggressive domination & readiness of troops for befitting response to any misadventure by enemy is very satisfying," Jaitley tweeted later .

amit
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby amit » 20 May 2017 08:52

Hari Seldon wrote:Seems like we're OK with a de facto partition on our soil (just visit any IM ghettos in *any* tier I or even II city), just not a de jure one.

/just sayin', std disclaimers...


Also just saying with standard disclaimers...

We had a de jure partition on religious lines in 1947 in which everyone had a choice to decide which country they were comfortable with. This resulted millions moving from one country to another resulting in what was probably the worst humanitarian tragedy of the 20th century.

And yet here we are 70 odd years later, thinking about another partition along religious lines. How many such partitions would folks who are advocating this line settle for? Any idea just how much territory would have be ceded to accommodate 200 million people? WiKi bhaiya, salaam to him, says UP has a population of 199 million and Maharashtra has 112 million. Again just saying...

So every 70 odd years we will be ceding territory to keep peace and our dhotis from shivering too much and revealing our grapes, sorry, testimonials.

BTW, how is one going to force folks born Indian but of the Muslim faith and who just want to get along with their lives and have no interest in Islamofascist ideas to move to this new "territory"? Just curious.

Incidentally, again just saying... de jure means existing or holding a specified position by legal right.

May be the Indian Parliament should pass a "purna bhaumat" resolution on creating a new homeland?

To reiterate stand disclaimers...

Rudradev
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Rudradev » 20 May 2017 09:10

Hari Seldon wrote:Seems like we're OK with a de facto partition on our soil (just visit any IM ghettos in *any* tier I or even II city), just not a de jure one.

/just sayin', std disclaimers...

Your observations are often pithy but this one is just trite and poorly thought out.

A school friend of mine was well acquainted with a certain Inspector Vijay Salaskar. Whenever required, the Inspector and his team would take a ride into the sprawling IM ghettos of Mumbai, and encounter certain persons, who would then cease to pose a security threat. Intel as to the doings and exact whereabouts of these persons would also come invariably from residents of said ghettos.

Does that sound like a de facto partition to you?

Compare the untouchability of say Dawood or Chhota Shakeel, protected behind national boundaries set up by an actual partition.

Mort Walker
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Mort Walker » 20 May 2017 09:21

I don't seem to catch the drift of all of these recent posts. In J&K we are in a much better position today than we've been in a long time. Keep the pressure up on the mother fcukers. Stomp on their asses and choke the shit out of 'em. Kill them with bullets, pellets and poison - whatever it takes. Don't yield an inch and keep blasting away at the border. We've done it for 70 years, and we'll do it for at least another 70. Time is on our side.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby chetak » 20 May 2017 09:38

is it being done now because of the recent expose on TV or is it being done helplessly after the expose because politicians are/were complicit in this funding??

either way, it's a shame how these agencies are playing and toying with India's security concerns, NIA most of all.

are we to foolishly believe that the "intelligence" agencies were all blissfully unaware of such funding earlier??

NIA probes Hurriyat ‘funding from Pak’

Bart S
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Bart S » 20 May 2017 10:17

chetak wrote:is it being done now because of the recent expose on TV or is it being done helplessly after the expose because politicians are/were complicit in this funding??

either way, it's a shame how these agencies are playing and toying with India's security concerns, NIA most of all.

are we to foolishly believe that the "intelligence" agencies were all blissfully unaware of such funding earlier??

NIA probes Hurriyat ‘funding from Pak’



News articles say that Jet Li is in Srinagar, and has 'taken serious note' :rotfl: of the India Today expose. Looks like they have to read it in the MSM to believe what is bloody obvious to everyone and his dog since the whole Hurriyat fiasco started.

chetak
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby chetak » 20 May 2017 10:32

Bart S wrote:
chetak wrote:is it being done now because of the recent expose on TV or is it being done helplessly after the expose because politicians are/were complicit in this funding??

either way, it's a shame how these agencies are playing and toying with India's security concerns, NIA most of all.

are we to foolishly believe that the "intelligence" agencies were all blissfully unaware of such funding earlier??

NIA probes Hurriyat ‘funding from Pak’



News articles say that Jet Li is in Srinagar, and has 'taken serious note' :rotfl: of the India Today expose. Looks like they have to read it in the MSM to believe what is bloody obvious to everyone and his dog since the whole Hurriyat fiasco started.


this is another version of "kadi ninda".

It is malicious mehbooba and her gang who have precipitated this crisis and advanced the case of the pakis along expected lines as she was eagerly waiting to do all these years.

Karthik S
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Karthik S » 20 May 2017 11:16

amit wrote:I'd like to ask Rsangram a simple question. Does he think every single Indian Muslim or to make it simpler every single Indian of the Muslim faith who are residents of the state of J&K would happily agree to this "population transfer for peace" scenario?

Rsangram I hope you understand that behind the feel-good "dharmic" sophistry that you are sprouting lies a deep racial bias. In short you are saying the loyalty of every single Indian Muslim is suspect and given a chance and a new "homeland" they would happily abandon India and settle there.

You are essentially pi**ing on the great contributions of Indians who are Muslims by faith like Kalam Sir, AR Rahman, Mohamad Kaif (you should follow his Twitter handle), Zaheer Khan and others. You are doing the same with the Muslim soldiers who laid down their lives for the country like the young officer brutally murdered in Kashmir recently.

In short I know it's easy to get a high by sprouting sophistry on an Internet forum using an anonymous handle. But it only shows that the person who is doing that hasn't thought things through. And you are not the first one to go down this path on this forum. Neither will you be the last. But be prepared to be called out for it.


Your answers are in these 2 videos, the second video is by our own PM, in 2001.





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