Bharat Rakshak Forum Announcement

Hello Everyone,

A warm welcome back to the Bharat Rakshak Forum.

Important Notice: Due to a corruption in the BR forum database we regret to announce that data records relating to some of our registered users have been lost. We estimate approx. 500 user details are deleted.

To ease the process of recreating the user IDs we request members that have previously posted on the BR forums to recognise and identify their posts, once the posts are identified please contact the BRF moderator team by emailing BRF Mod Team with your post details.

The mod team will be able to update your username, email etc. so that the user history can be maintained.

Unfortunately for members that have never posted or have had all their posts deleted i.e. users that have 0 posts, we will be unable to recreate your account hence we request that you re-register again.

We apologise for any inconvenience caused and thank you for your understanding.

Regards,
Seetal

J&K News and Discussion - 2016

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
CRamS
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5866
Joined: 07 Oct 2006 20:54
Contact:

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby CRamS » 14 May 2017 21:06

rsangram, hate to be terse for your well laid out thoughts, but you answered yourself. India is simply not strong enough, both militarily, politically, economically, and diplomatically to handle the fallout of scrapping 370. (As an aside, what do can you expect from a populace who adore a white trash pop music icon even as he p!sses on them while pay scant regard for its falen heros like Umar Fayazz?). Its only in jingo wet dreams. The simple truth of the matter is that given we ourselves have lowered the bar so low that India gets demonized for "human rights" abuses confronting Islamic fascism, any ratcheting up that bar, much less doing what you said will make TSP and its proxies go berserk. In fact, TSP might even consider it an act of war by India unilaterally changed the nature of a "disputed" territory.

The alternative is continue current status quo and hope BJP will be in power for 20+ years to make India economically and militarily strong, and as importantly politically strong internally till such time India can withstand the fall out you highlight above. Of course, the interim will be painful, but thats the best we can hope for at the moment.
Last edited by CRamS on 14 May 2017 21:09, edited 1 time in total.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14398
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby chetak » 14 May 2017 21:07

Lt Ummer Fayaz was a JNU product.

pin drop silence from the JNU types, jehadi commies as well as the lootyens sickulars.

Tributes by public, IA and ex servicemen in many cities including dilli India gate and bangalore war memorial

CRamS
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5866
Joined: 07 Oct 2006 20:54
Contact:

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby CRamS » 14 May 2017 21:11

Chetak, what about KM intellectuals? How did the traitors newspapers in the valley like rising Kashmir cover his sacrifice?

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14398
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby chetak » 14 May 2017 21:28

CRamS wrote:Chetak, what about KM intellectuals? How did the traitors newspapers in the valley like rising Kashmir cover his sacrifice?


KM intellectuals?? are there any??

Most TV channels also not covering the news of tributes to his memory after his cold blooded and cowardly murder

CRamS
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5866
Joined: 07 Oct 2006 20:54
Contact:

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby CRamS » 14 May 2017 21:36

You right my man, its was a typo, I should have said KM "intellectuals"

rsangram
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 68
Joined: 20 Sep 2016 17:54

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby rsangram » 14 May 2017 21:50

CRamS wrote:rsangram, hate to be terse for your well laid out thoughts, but you answered yourself. India is simply not strong enough, both militarily, politically, economically, and diplomatically to handle the fallout of scrapping 370. (As an aside, what do can you expect from a populace who adore a white trash pop music icon even as he p!sses on them while pay scant regard for its falen heros like Umar Fayazz?). Its only in jingo wet dreams. The simple truth of the matter is that given we ourselves have lowered the bar so low that India gets demonized for "human rights" abuses confronting Islamic fascism, any ratcheting up that bar, much less doing what you said will make TSP and its proxies go berserk. In fact, TSP might even consider it an act of war by India unilaterally changed the nature of a "disputed" territory.


The alternative is continue current status quo and hope BJP will be in power for 20+ years to make India economically and militarily strong, and as importantly politically strong internally till such time India can withstand the fall out you highlight above. Of course, the interim will be painful, but thats the best we can hope for at the moment.


CRams,

You think, hypothetically speaking, even if Modi is in power for 20 years, India will become militarily stronger ? or even economically stronger ? Although, I am not sure, how far economic strength, even if it were to come about, will go in fighting the asymmetrical warfare that the Islamists are experts at. And I mean, I sometimes even question this entire premise of India becoming economically stronger. In relation to who ? Isnt is all relative ? Economic strength or any kind of strength only matters when you get stronger in relation to someone else, right ? So, if you get richer by 100% and your enemies (china, in this case and the Islamic world in general) gets richer by 200%, are you stronger economically or weaker ? So, to be really considered economically growing or stronger, you have to at least do better than your enemies, right ? Otherwise, you are at best just keeping up or in India's case, not even that, as I would argue that we have gotten economically weaker vis-a-vis China and the Arab world in general, with their massive oil resources. So, what makes you think that in 20 years, we will not be further behind our enemies, economically ? What will happen then ?

Coming to Military strength and its co-relation with economic strength. Even if you accept the proposition, which I dont, that India has progressively gotten economically stronger in the past 25 years or so, if you look at the relative military strength of India against its enemies, during the same period, you will find that India has gotten progressively militarily weaker in relation to the enemies. This is true, even in relation to our weakest enemy, ie., Pakistan. So, even if you grow economically, in relative terms, which we are not likely to, how does that translate into military strength. I would argue that at least in case of India, regardless of where we go from here economically, we can be militarily prepared in five years to deal with our issues, particularly be eminently be prepared to scrap 370 and face all its consequences to our satisfaction, if we just have the right mindset among our polity and our society. In fact, had Modi started mobilizing the society and his government towards this goal on day 1 that he entered office, he could well have been in a position to abrogate 370 before he faced elections again, at the end of his 5 year term. But again, we judge our governance in india, unfortunately in relation to the alternative dispensations or previous governments, not against the achievable results that were or were not achieved.

Five years is enough to a) mobilize the country and society into a war mindset and get them prepared to make some sacrifices in subsidies and wasteful government schemes, so that massive amounts of money could immediately be diverted to defense.......create a "we will eat grass" mentality in the country, b) Streamline the defense procurements for the future, but indulge in massive immediate, emergency "filling the gap" defense buying spree on a war footing, personally supervised by the Prime Minister and his small group of advisers, by them evaluating and approving each and every "fill in the gap" contract themselves, in a nightly four hour meeting from 10.00 PM to 2.00 AM. And use every possible means, including black market and grey market purchases, using international arms dealers, merchants and smugglers and any means including of course legitimate government to government sales to fill the immediate gap, c) increase the incentives for enlisting more jawans and attracting more officers in the armed forces by massively increasing money and benefits to them, d) completely remove any red tape in allocation of land and pumps etc to martyrs' families and provide a "delivery at home" service of benefits to these martyrs and retired veterans, e) have a massive psyops campaign to elevate the status of an army person to a level which is not just unprecedented in India but in the world, f) renounce no first use nuclear policy and make it clear to the world that our current territory that we control, every inch of it, is a nuclear red line, which we mean to enforce via a potential suicide mission, and mean it, g) start developing tactical nuclear weapons, if for nothing else, for psyops, h) always keep the threat of more nuclear tests hanging in the air, 24X7, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year, creating our own subtle nuclear blackmail.......and I can go on and on. NONE OF THESE THINGS CAN BE CONSTRUED BY ANYONE AS US DECLARING WAR.....THESE ARE ALL INTERNAL TYPE THINGS.

These things that I have mentioned above can all be achieved very quickly, given the will and vision, certainly within a 5 year period. In five years, we may not be able to win an all out two front war, or even an all out war on Paki, but if we followed the above, we can at least be in a position to do away with article 370. These things are also not contingent on any further economic growth or strength, relative or absolute. So, why dont we do this ?

Even if we dont do the above, because we lack the vision, the discipline, the self control, the sense of sacrifice, the willingness to give up our own internal and individual corruption, why cant we then at least do the lesser things that I suggested in the previous post. Slowly disregard 370 and start to change demographics under the guise of resettling Kashmiri Pandits ? This will require us to still have vision, discipline, self control, self of sacrifice, willingness to give up corruption, individually and societally, but less so than is required to out and out abrogate 370. Are we not even willing to make this minimal effort societally ? What sort of a country are we then ? What happened to Kashmiri Pandits was genocidal. But we can still convert it into a positive. By now using it as a pretext to change the demographics, even without open abrogation of 370.

Will we ?

Dipanker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2522
Joined: 14 May 2002 11:31

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Dipanker » 15 May 2017 01:50

chetak wrote:Lt Ummer Fayaz was a JNU product.

pin drop silence from the JNU types, jehadi commies as well as the lootyens sickulars.

Tributes by public, IA and ex servicemen in many cities including dilli India gate and bangalore war memorial


He was NDA cadet who are awarded their degree through JNU, that is what I heard in one of the TV debate.

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19980
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Prem » 15 May 2017 02:45


Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2131
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Karthik S » 15 May 2017 13:44

Army Gives Clean Chit To Officer Who Tied An Alleged Stone-Pelter To Jeep, Says His Move Saved Lives


https://swarajyamag.com/insta/army-give ... aved-lives

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2131
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Karthik S » 15 May 2017 13:47

https://twitter.com/ashishtikoo31/statu ... 6692696064

So sad to watch. KPs are still enduring the crimes committed against them decades ago.

Sachin
Webmaster BR
Posts: 6557
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Undisclosed

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Sachin » 16 May 2017 12:09

Dipanker wrote:He was NDA cadet who are awarded their degree through JNU, that is what I heard in one of the TV debate.

That is because NDA cadets do not have a choice. It would take more efforts from the Ajadee shouting free-loaders of JNU @ Delhi to claim some goodness; just because NDA cadets doing a much more honest job training in NDA gets their degree from JNU. When free-loaders like Kanhayya Kumar, Umer Khalid etc. were just eating up tax payer's money, folks like the young Lt Ummer Fayaz from Kashmir was going through a hard training regimen at NDA. Lots of difference.

brvarsh
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 84
Joined: 03 Mar 2011 20:29

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby brvarsh » 16 May 2017 15:36

You think, hypothetically speaking, even if Modi is in power for 20 years, India will become militarily stronger ? or even economically stronger ?

We should not repeat the same mistake what Pakistan is doing with CPEC - If it succeeds, when it succeeds. Leaders change, they get under pressure, they get poor advisors. The way Modi is going it is very promising but relying our policies or success of our strategies to one Man's success is risky. What needs to happen in Kashmir is something that can be sustained, can be implemented and something other non-Modi governments could not meddle with or change. Article 370 has to go but it needs to go with support of Kashmiris. Even Jammu Hindu/Sikh residents do not seem to be too keen in removing it. Unless the gain of removing it can be proven to be much larger than the losses of having it, nothing is going to change.

rsangram
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 68
Joined: 20 Sep 2016 17:54

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby rsangram » 16 May 2017 21:01

brvarsh wrote:
You think, hypothetically speaking, even if Modi is in power for 20 years, India will become militarily stronger ? or even economically stronger ?

We should not repeat the same mistake what Pakistan is doing with CPEC - If it succeeds, when it succeeds. Leaders change, they get under pressure, they get poor advisors. The way Modi is going it is very promising but relying our policies or success of our strategies to one Man's success is risky. What needs to happen in Kashmir is something that can be sustained, can be implemented and something other non-Modi governments could not meddle with or change. Article 370 has to go but it needs to go with support of Kashmiris. Even Jammu Hindu/Sikh residents do not seem to be too keen in removing it. Unless the gain of removing it can be proven to be much larger than the losses of having it, nothing is going to change.


370 needs to go, with or without the support of Kashmiris or anyone else for that matter.

370 is an issue of national sovereignty and integration and national sovereignty and national integration is not a question open to any referendums or elections or will of any people. Territorial integrity of a country is not subject to any of those things and is completely non negotiable and out of bounds of any national dialogue.

What is open to negotiation is facilitating those Indian citizens who do not wish to live under the Union of India - the full Union of india with J&K included, to gracefully migrate to other countries which might be more suitable. We should ensure that these people are able to sell their property and belongings in an orderly manner and take all their money and possessions with them. This is what is open to discussion and negotiations, nothing else.

vasu raya
BRFite
Posts: 1327
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby vasu raya » 16 May 2017 23:17

Making of a warrior & the ultimate sacrifice

There are two streams of loyalty, the Umer Fayyaz episode and the Burhan Wani episode prove that, similar distinction is there in rest of India as seen in muslims attending the funeral of Kalam saab and Afzal Guru was it?

Its the second stream that needs analysis, and I believe social media generates enough data to map their inclinations, that includes news articles that are blatantly pro or anti on various issues and see who clicks what

SriJoy
BRFite
Posts: 336
Joined: 20 Apr 2017 23:21

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby SriJoy » 16 May 2017 23:25

rsangram wrote:
brvarsh wrote:We should not repeat the same mistake what Pakistan is doing with CPEC - If it succeeds, when it succeeds. Leaders change, they get under pressure, they get poor advisors. The way Modi is going it is very promising but relying our policies or success of our strategies to one Man's success is risky. What needs to happen in Kashmir is something that can be sustained, can be implemented and something other non-Modi governments could not meddle with or change. Article 370 has to go but it needs to go with support of Kashmiris. Even Jammu Hindu/Sikh residents do not seem to be too keen in removing it. Unless the gain of removing it can be proven to be much larger than the losses of having it, nothing is going to change.


370 needs to go, with or without the support of Kashmiris or anyone else for that matter.

370 is an issue of national sovereignty and integration and national sovereignty and national integration is not a question open to any referendums or elections or will of any people. Territorial integrity of a country is not subject to any of those things and is completely non negotiable and out of bounds of any national dialogue.

What is open to negotiation is facilitating those Indian citizens who do not wish to live under the Union of India - the full Union of india with J&K included, to gracefully migrate to other countries which might be more suitable.
We should ensure that these people are able to sell their property and belongings in an orderly manner and take all their money and possessions with them. This is what is open to discussion and negotiations, nothing else.


That would be counter-productive. One cannot have a democracy, without a mechanism for a part of that country to become independent. That runs fundamentally counter to democratic principles of self determination.

The trick is to leave a mechanism in place for independence, but making it logistically practically impossible to do.

Re: Kashmir, we can simply stick to the UNSC resolution mandate, that states Pakistan must vacate PoK before referendum is allowed in Kashmir. This stance lets us keep Kashmir indefinitely (since Pakistan will never vacate PoK short of nuclear war or a humongous independence struggle in PoK) and at the same time, underscores Pakistan's culpability in messing up Kashmir as well as standing in the way of its democratic self determination.
If we unify over this issue, it also has the potential to turn the Kashmiri awaam against Paksitan, as we can potentially convince them that our stance is legal and justified, with Pakistan being the roadblock.

brvarsh
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 84
Joined: 03 Mar 2011 20:29

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby brvarsh » 17 May 2017 00:30

SriJoy wrote:Re: Kashmir, we can simply stick to the UNSC resolution mandate, that states Pakistan must vacate PoK before referendum is allowed in Kashmir. This stance lets us keep Kashmir indefinitely (since Pakistan will never vacate PoK short of nuclear war or a humongous independence struggle in PoK) and at the same time, underscores Pakistan's culpability in messing up Kashmir as well as standing in the way of its democratic self determination.


This is called policy paralysis. The moment we do this it introduces an implicit notion that India occupies Kashmir which on the contrary is not true, Pakistan is. Leaving the problem as is will only multiply in future. We have so much to learn from anti separatist movements in Punjab, in Nagaland, in Tamil Nadu that it is surprising why we are not using them to its fullest in Kashmir. One problem with Kashmir is Islamization of the issue. In any of the other movements the problem was by and large regional. There was an extent of support that could easily be curtailed. The fear in Kashmir is a presence of unresolved problem could potentially become a bigger problem depending on who runs the local and who runs the federal government.

Kashmir is not an Islamic problem, it has never been but now we hear stronger voices to make it so. Even across the borders the sense of turning the issue as a cause of Islam is growing stronger. That goes right orthogonal to how it all started and also leaves a huge opportunity for Indian government to make use of.

Difference between Punjab and Kashmir separatist movements was though in Punjab it started as a religious cause but turned into political, while in Kashmir its getting quite opposite. And rash decisions like removing 370 without at least a few native fronts strongly supporting it would only backfire. Bullets are costly, Guns are cheaper but Issues are cheapest.

SriJoy
BRFite
Posts: 336
Joined: 20 Apr 2017 23:21

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby SriJoy » 17 May 2017 00:41

brvarsh wrote:
This is called policy paralysis. The moment we do this it introduces an implicit notion that India occupies Kashmir which on the contrary is not true, Pakistan is. Leaving the problem as is will only multiply in future. We have so much to learn from anti separatist movements in Punjab, in Nagaland, in Tamil Nadu that it is surprising why we are not using them to its fullest in Kashmir. One problem with Kashmir is Islamization of the issue. In any of the other movements the problem was by and large regional. There was an extent of support that could easily be curtailed. The fear in Kashmir is a presence of unresolved problem could potentially become a bigger problem depending on who runs the local and who runs the federal government.

Kashmir is not an Islamic problem, it has never been but now we hear stronger voices to make it so. Even across the borders the sense of turning the issue as a cause of Islam is growing stronger. That goes right orthogonal to how it all started and also leaves a huge opportunity for Indian government to make use of.

Difference between Punjab and Kashmir separatist movements was though in Punjab it started as a religious cause but turned into political, while in Kashmir its getting quite opposite. And rash decisions like removing 370 without at least a few native fronts strongly supporting it would only backfire. Bullets are costly, Guns are cheaper but Issues are cheapest.



1. Why would it imply that India 'occupies' Kashmir, when we have legally valid instrument of accession from the sovereign of Kashmir to the sovereign of Republic of India ?
Would it not imply that India is 'willing to allow self-determination' of Kashmir, provided the UNSC judgement is followed ?

2. Scotland had a referendum to leave the UK. Quebec had one to leave Canada- the implication is not Canada occupies Quebec, UK occupies Scotland. The implication is, there is a 'mechanism' for self determination and secession from the sovereign in a democracy. Our demand for Pakistani compliance with UNSC resolution for a referendum to happen, is simply following the principle that a sovereign cant conduct fair referendum (i.e., represent its rights) when part of the territory is under foreign occupation. UK wouldn't allow Scottish referendum if part of Scotland was occupied. Same logic applies here, no ?

3. There are several ways to address your concerns with 370. One would be ensuring any business venture in J&K require atleast minority shareholding by native Kashmiris. That could be our 'carrot' for 370 removal. Removing 370 is going to create a huge demand for Kashmiri land amongst rest of Indians and along with the land, comes business development. By giving Kashmiris a bone like that, we can generate support for 370, atleast amongst the Hindus and Buddhists.

CRamS
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5866
Joined: 07 Oct 2006 20:54
Contact:

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby CRamS » 17 May 2017 00:47

SriJoy wrote:
Re: Kashmir, we can simply stick to the UNSC resolution mandate, that states Pakistan must vacate PoK before referendum is allowed in Kashmir. This stance lets us keep Kashmir indefinitely (since Pakistan will never vacate PoK short of nuclear war or a humongous independence struggle in PoK) and at the same time, underscores Pakistan's culpability in messing up Kashmir as well as standing in the way of its democratic self determination.
If we unify over this issue, it also has the potential to turn the Kashmiri awaam against Paksitan, as we can potentially convince them that our stance is legal and justified, with Pakistan being the roadblock.


You cannot be any more wrong. This will be dangerous. It will be the surest way to accede to TSP demands for talks. TSP will gladly agree to this and the discussions will go on with TSP, KM proxies, India's 5th columns, along with TSP's 3.5 silently behind, Vs Indian nationalists on the other. In the ensuing stalemate, it will be downhill for India especially in the court of "international" opinion and India will be painted as the villain.

India's best strategy will be to militarily thwart TSP's ability to create trouble in the valley, hopefully raise the costs for TSPA, and in the meantime work with reasonable KMs in the valley and bring about stability. And at some point, with acquiescence of Kashmiris, Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists included, revoke 370 and integrate the state with India. This may take 25+ years. No talk of UN resolutions BS.

SBajwa
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4070
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 21:35
Location: Attari

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby SBajwa » 17 May 2017 00:49

by brvarsh
Kashmir is not an Islamic problem, it has never been but now we hear stronger voices to make it so. Even across the borders the sense of turning the issue as a cause of Islam is growing stronger. That goes right orthogonal to how it all started and also leaves a huge opportunity for Indian government to make use of.

Difference between Punjab and Kashmir separatist movements was though in Punjab it started as a religious cause but turned into political, while in Kashmir its getting quite opposite. And rash decisions like removing 370 without at least a few native fronts strongly supporting it would only backfire. Bullets are costly, Guns are cheaper but Issues are cheapest.


Kashmir has always been Islamic issue since the days of Aurungzeb. Do you know any non-muslim Kashmiri leader part of Hurriyat? Or for that matter any Shia/Ahmadia/Bohra/Ismaili as part of Hurriyat!

The best thing is to do what Ranjit Singh did and he isolated Kashmiri muslims by occupying it. So!

Kashmir must be broken down to at least three states with Kashmir valley having no land access to POK.

All the areas sorrounding Kashmir valley could be states but Kashmir valley needs to be Union Territory.

SriJoy
BRFite
Posts: 336
Joined: 20 Apr 2017 23:21

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby SriJoy » 17 May 2017 00:53

CRamS wrote:You cannot be any more wrong. This will be dangerous. It will be the surest way to accede to TSP demands for talks. TSP will gladly agree to this and the discussions will go on with TSP, KM proxies, India's 5th columns, along with TSP's 3.5 silently behind, Vs Indian nationalists on the other. In the ensuing stalemate, it will be downhill for India especially in the court of "international" opinion and India will be painted as the villain.

India's best strategy will be to militarily thwart TSP's ability to create trouble in the valley, hopefully raise the costs for TSPA, and in the meantime work with reasonable KMs in the valley and bring about stability. And at some point, with acquiescence of Kashmiris, Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists included, revoke 370 and integrate the state with India. This may take 25+ years. No talk of UN resolutions BS.


1. Why would it be 'invitation to talks' ? We can simply say 'no talks till you comply with step1 of UNSC resolution, which is vacate PoK'. We'd be in the legal and logical right, since the international community is the one who underwrote the UNSC resolution and Pakistani withdrawal is step1. If we insist 'nothing happens till step1 is complied with', how is that opening the door for talks ?

2. Why will India be painted as the villain, if we are the ones willing to play by the UNSC recommendation and keep pointing out that it is Pakistan that is the roadblock, refusing to comply with step1 ?

3. The UNSC angle will be a PR victory for us- it will show to the Kashmiris and the world that we are willing to give Kashmir its referendum under the UNSC guidelines. In reality, it will never happen, because Paksitan will never comply with step1, so its a win-win for us, where we get to keep Kashmir and build momentum to corner Pakistan and concentrate the blame on them. If fundamentalist KMs are fed the fact that its Pakistan thats standing in the way of their freedom, not RoI, it will cause some fracturing of their loyalties to Pakistan.

CRamS
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5866
Joined: 07 Oct 2006 20:54
Contact:

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby CRamS » 17 May 2017 01:09

^^^ Because once India accepts those bogus UN resolutions, its no longer a bi-lateral matter. TSP's 3.5 will get involved and there will be lots of maneuverings and theatrics yada yada. It will essentially be talks over the status of J&K which is exactly what TSP and its proxies and 3.5 want. After all the water that has flown, its wiping away all of TSP's crimes in one swoop and holding India and TSP at the same moral equivalence. It will be a complete, unmitigated disaster.

SriJoy
BRFite
Posts: 336
Joined: 20 Apr 2017 23:21

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby SriJoy » 17 May 2017 01:53

CRamS wrote:^^^ Because once India accepts those bogus UN resolutions, its no longer a bi-lateral matter. TSP's 3.5 will get involved and there will be lots of maneuverings and theatrics yada yada. It will essentially be talks over the status of J&K which is exactly what TSP and its proxies and 3.5 want. After all the water that has flown, its wiping away all of TSP's crimes in one swoop and holding India and TSP at the same moral equivalence. It will be a complete, unmitigated disaster.


OIC .
If i am reading you correctly, then its 'accepting UNSC resolution' = letting further UNSC meddling and internationalizing the issue ?
Hmm.
Well thats too bad- i guess we could do something like that if we can get permanent seat in UNSC.
But you are right, on current situation, it'd be a mistake. Thanks for pointing it out.

rsangram
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 68
Joined: 20 Sep 2016 17:54

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby rsangram » 17 May 2017 02:15

Sri Joy wrote:That would be counter-productive. One cannot have a democracy, without a mechanism for a part of that country to become independent. That runs fundamentally counter to democratic principles of self determination.


Where does it say that having a democracy means providing a mechanism for a part of the country to become independent. This is the sort of understanding of democracy among our own people, which is a large part of all the problems that we have. Have you ever heard of the American Civil War ?

For the sake of argument, even if you accept for a moment, that democracy means allowing separation, then it is even better. We shoot two birds with one stone. Get rid of our democracy too (which I call "chorocracy") with the right to secede.

SBajwa
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4070
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 21:35
Location: Attari

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby SBajwa » 17 May 2017 02:38

and check how many times Texas tried to secede from USA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_secession_movements

SriJoy
BRFite
Posts: 336
Joined: 20 Apr 2017 23:21

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby SriJoy » 17 May 2017 02:52

rsangram wrote:
Where does it say that having a democracy means providing a mechanism for a part of the country to become independent. This is the sort of understanding of democracy among our own people, which is a large part of all the problems that we have. Have you ever heard of the American Civil War ?

For the sake of argument, even if you accept for a moment, that democracy means allowing separation, then it is even better. We shoot two birds with one stone. Get rid of our democracy too (which I call "chorocracy") with the right to secede.


American civil war happened because there was no agreed protocol to democratic independence.
As far as i know, human rights charter plus democracy implies, if there is political will for independence, democracies accommodate atleast the legal scenario via its constitutional courts.

And i am not sure, if you want to replace democracy, what is the mechanism of controlling our government, then ? How do we remove a potential 'Mao' from the power if he starts killing millions for some harebrained idea ?

Katare
BRFite
Posts: 1718
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Katare » 17 May 2017 04:15

Democracy should not be replaced with anything or ever and it'll never create a monster as long as it's substantially democratic. Only thing we need to do is to protect it
My 2 cents

rsangram
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 68
Joined: 20 Sep 2016 17:54

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby rsangram » 17 May 2017 06:18

Katare wrote:Democracy should not be replaced with anything or ever and it'll never create a monster as long as it's substantially democratic. Only thing we need to do is to protect it
My 2 cents


Yes let us protect it by giving away Kashmir, just like we gave away half of our country during partition, which has been a part of us for 10000 years, and just like we are giving away to China, our territory inch by inch every day, not to mention providing the Chinese a permanent foothold in Indian territory, such as POK, Baluchistan and other areas, and giving them a permanent foothold into our port and seashore (Gawdar). Never before in the 10000 years of our history, have the Chinese or foreign power had this kind of foot hold in our territory.

We have had democracy since.....when ? 1947. What have we lost since 1947, which we never prior to that lost in our 100000 year history ?

1. Pakistan, east and west
2. Baluchistan
3. Tibet
4. POK
5.Gilgit Baltistan
6. Aksai Chin

And we are on the verge of losing Indian Kashmir despite having nuclear weapons.

This is what democracy has gotten us.

Democracy is not a Dharmic concept. It is a foreign, imported concept. Dharmic concept is one of ONE strong and benevolent leader, who is governed and guided by Dharma, not the whim of the people. In our ancient thought, Dharma is the will of the people, not the impulse they have at any given moment. Dharma arises out of deep thought, Dharma is enduring, Dharma governs all of us, not the momentary weakness of human beings. And our Dharma is eminently and very clearly articulated in our scriptures and culture. At least it was deeply embedded in our culture, until this foreign concept called democracy was imported.

All our civilizational golden moments that we are so proud of or should be proud of, were periods where ONE benevolent leader ruled by and large, as per Dharma. Whether it be Lord Rama, Lord Krishna in our mythology, or whether they be historical periods such as Maurya period, or the periods of the Gurjar Pratiharas, Rashtrakutta, Vijaynagar Empire, Cholas, Guptas, Prthviraj Chuhan, Maharanas of Mewar, Hemchandra, Ranjit Singh, Shivaji, Baji Rao and others.

Compare that to the period of JAwaharlal Nehru, Indira Gandhi, The great Jagjivan Ram, Rajeev Gandhi, Sonia Gandhi, Laluji, Daku a Azam, Mulayam Singh, Mayawati, "Amma", Karunanidhi, Stalin, Digvijay Singh, IK Gujral, Devegawda, VP Singh, Chandu, Sardar Manmohan, the great "shining India" Atalji, Rahulji, Nitishji, and even "acche Din" Narendra Modi.....oh, and dont let me forget the Patnaik clan and how can I omit Jyoti Basu, Farooq, Omar, Shiekh, Muftis of all variety, and Sharad Pawar and his friend ND Tiwari. This is what democracy gives us. (By the way, I am a Modi fan).

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 46104
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ramana » 17 May 2017 06:54

India Today's Rahul Kanwal redeemed himself by interviewing Hurrirats who confessed they are funded by Pakis. Noting indigenous about them. Hawala funding via Old Delhi markets.

Please stick to topic than discussing extraneous stuff.

BharataTalwar
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 19
Joined: 21 Nov 2010 05:50

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby BharataTalwar » 17 May 2017 08:07

SriJoy wrote:1. Why would it be 'invitation to talks' ? We can simply say 'no talks till you comply with step1 of UNSC resolution, which is vacate PoK'. We'd be in the legal and logical right, since the international community is the one who underwrote the UNSC resolution and Pakistani withdrawal is step1. If we insist 'nothing happens till step1 is complied with', how is that opening the door for talks ?



To what end? Lets imagine that they do vacate the official force, then what? Knowing Pakis, they will simply replace it with another unofficial (read terrorist) force and continue the charade, as they have done many many times, including Afghanistan. A plebiscite is no longer an option and to be frank, it never was. It should be very clear to any reasonable person how a Muslim majority will vote, not only in Kashmir but other parts of India too.

The only realistic solution is to send all Pak-lovers to POK, in return for Baltistan. I dont see any other way. These people are lost forever.

arun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8805
Joined: 28 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby arun » 17 May 2017 11:39

X Posted from the Pakistani Role in Global Terrorism thread.

Citizen of the Mohammadden Terrorism Fomenting Islamic Republic of Pakistan, Muhammad Aafaq I., whose last name wasn't given in accordance with privacy regulations, is charged in Germany with joining Islamic Republic located Mohammadden belief based group, Lashkar e Taiba (LeT), for purpose of exporting Pakistani national sport of Mohammadden Terrorism to the state of Jammu and Kashmir (J&K) in our Country.

And so yet another citizen of the Mohammaddenn Terrorism Fomenting Islamic Republic of Pakistan resident abroad is arrested, this time in Germany, for indulging in Pakistani national pastime of Mohammadden Terrorism.

Pakistani man faces terrorism charges in Germany

jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 4719
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby jamwal » 17 May 2017 13:55

https://www.newslaundry.com/2017/05/16/ ... t-islamism

Kashmiri separatism was always about Islamism

To effectively address the unrest in Kashmir we need to accept that religion and not politics drives it.


Regardless of the beguiling spin that most apologists, defenders, ideologues, sympathisers, supporters of Kashmiri separatism give to justify their cause in the name of Kashmiri nationalism, the roots of this movement and its driving force lie in Islamism, Islamo-fascism and Islamist exclusivism. From the time when the Muslim Conference was in the vanguard of making Kashmir a part of the Islamic State of Pakistan, to the time in the early 1990s when a wave of terrorism was unleashed in Jammu and Kashmir (the so-called “secular” Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front was in the forefront of the ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits), to now when another upsurge is being witnessed - the Islamist impulse has been the main inspiration and motivation of the separatists. While some of the separatists try to disguise their Islamism by calling it a “political problem” and linking it with Kashmiri identity, there are others who are less hypocritical and more upfront, even brazen, about the Islamist underpinnings of the cause for which they are fighting.

The Hizbul Mujahideen terrorist, Zakir Musa, was being completely honest and truthful when he declared that the struggle he was associated with was an Islamic struggle for the enforcement of Shariah. And like the genuine article Islamist warrior that he is, he threatened to chop off the heads of the Hurriyat leaders who called the separatist movement a “political movement”. Exposing the double-speak, hypocrisy, dissemble of the Hurriyat leaders who try resort to duplicitousness by couching their Islamism in political terms, he reminded them of the slogans they have raised – Pakistan se rishta kya, la illah il allah (What is our relationship with Pakistan: No one is worthy of worship except Allah) and Azadi ka matlab kya, la illah il allah (What is the meaning of freedom: No one is worthy of worship except Allah) – to mobilise people to support their cause.

Hari Seldon
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8784
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 12:47
Location: University of Trantor

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Hari Seldon » 17 May 2017 17:05

RSS to hold annual meet in J&K for the first time

Gaslighting the valley muz a little more, I guess.

Bring it on. Full monty meltdown on national & int'l cameras would help India see the truth about the k-valley.

More the valley jihardons and their ovegroundu patrons in lootyens and isloo expose themselves hoarse attacking this meet, more intell Doval and co get is the way I read it. Only.

P.S. Amarnath yatra will be a way more serious target than ever before, however.

sudeepj
BRFite
Posts: 924
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 11:25

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby sudeepj » 17 May 2017 21:00

SriJoy wrote:
rsangram wrote:
Where does it say that having a democracy means providing a mechanism for a part of the country to become independent. This is the sort of understanding of democracy among our own people, which is a large part of all the problems that we have. Have you ever heard of the American Civil War ?

For the sake of argument, even if you accept for a moment, that democracy means allowing separation, then it is even better. We shoot two birds with one stone. Get rid of our democracy too (which I call "chorocracy") with the right to secede.


American civil war happened because there was no agreed protocol to democratic independence.
As far as i know, human rights charter plus democracy implies, if there is political will for independence, democracies accommodate atleast the legal scenario via its constitutional courts.

...


This is utter and complete nonsense you are peddling here. No democracy will allow a fascist or a theocratic secession. All that these theories have created is an ever increasing spiral of violence and misery on the subcontinent. One million dead in 1947, three million in 1971, and a hundred thousand since then. How many more will the likes of you kill before you give up this 'human rights' and 'right to self determination' nonsense?

The only entity that establishes a peace and a modus-vivendi on the subcontinent is the Union of India and the Union (not a federation) is indissoluble.

Katare
BRFite
Posts: 1718
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Katare » 17 May 2017 23:08

Exactly!

When two or more sovereign nations unite to form a country as federation or union they have option to include a separation clause like in the case of United kingdom. Constitution of India (and USA) has no such clause and India has never lost an inch of land because of democracy. The land we lost to china, a superior military forces in our neighborhood has nothing to do with democracy but the short sightedness of the leaders we elected. We still vigorously maintain our claim on all parts that we lost and our struggle to get them back continues (including Aksai Chin or Desert of China).

Also Human rights does not mean right to separatism but right to protest peacefully for any cause and restriction on governments to allow such protest and not use undue forces on such gatherings. The moment you pick-up arms, start destroying properties or cross constitutional limits your human rights vanish in proportions. For instance a stone throwing crowed of Indian citizens should not be assaulted by tanks (like China did), groups of Indian citizens, like Naxals or Kashmiri terrorists, armed with small arms should not be attacked by artillery guns and fighter jets (like Pakistan). These are sensible safeguards, although at times I feel like using Agni 5s on such fellow citizens.

If a group of citizens have right to struggle for dismembering our nation the rest of the nation's citizens through it's elected govt have right to protect the integrity of the nation with all means available to it

So my point is do not confuse rhetoric of bleeding heart libtards like Manishankar and Arundhati Roy for what human rights and democracy actually are. Neither should anyone get discouraged by games that west plays by misusing human rights as a weapon at best its continued annoyance.

Kashmir struggle is nothing but pan-Islamism supported by a rogue terrorist loving entity masquerading as a nation on our western borders. A democratic India treats this so called struggle (scheduled every Friday with flags of ISIS, Taliban and Pakistan) nothing more than what it is. Asking for Azadi in a democracy is Oxymoron, you can't get freed unless you are enslaved and democracy is the freest form of governance known to men. Any call to freedom from such a system is nothing but a call for naked separatism to serve some narrow selfish purpose. In a decade or two or so this phase will pass as mother India embraces, nurtures and assimilates our estranged formerly hindu brothers who have lost the touch with their roots after conversion to a foreign faith.

This is one man's opinion so take it for whatever it's worth to you

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9875
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Gagan » 17 May 2017 23:10

#HurriyatTruthTapes : Real Face Of Hurriyat Conference In Kashmir Exposed | Part 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OxjFlirhDA

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9875
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Gagan » 17 May 2017 23:12

#HurriyatTruthTapes : Real Face Of Hurriyat Conference In Kashmir Exposed | Part 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZf0QtCzL24

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 46104
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ramana » 18 May 2017 00:45

X-Post....
ramana wrote:I expounded on this with another member yesterday.

It's a long war and each: 1947, 1965, 1971, 1989 to 2003 and present are battles in this war.

First was Battle of Kashmir. It settled accession and that Pakistan occupied Kashmir and Gilgit Baltistan.
1965 was Battle Of Punjab. It showed India will cross International Borders in self defence of Kashmir.
1971 was Battle of East Pakistan. It led to creation of Bangladesh and 93000 POWs. Same number at Battle of Stalingrad in WWII.
1989 to 2003 is Second Battle of Kashmir. It established India will finish off Pakistan.
Now we are in Third and hopefully last Battle of Kashmir. If NaMo wins this it ends Pakistan. So we need to understand and support him.


rsangram
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 68
Joined: 20 Sep 2016 17:54

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby rsangram » 18 May 2017 00:53

ramana wrote:X-Post....
ramana wrote:I expounded on this with another member yesterday.

It's a long war and each: 1947, 1965, 1971, 1989 to 2003 and present are battles in this war.

First was Battle of Kashmir. It settled accession and that Pakistan occupied Kashmir and Gilgit Baltistan.
1965 was Battle Of Punjab. It showed India will cross International Borders in self defence of Kashmir.
1971 was Battle of East Pakistan. It led to creation of Bangladesh and 93000 POWs. Same number at Battle of Stalingrad in WWII.
1989 to 2003 is Second Battle of Kashmir. It established India will finish off Pakistan.
Now we are in Third and hopefully last Battle of Kashmir. If NaMo wins this it ends Pakistan. So we need to understand and support him.



The last two are mistaken assertions. In fact, from 1989 it has been quiet the opposite of what it says above.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 46104
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ramana » 18 May 2017 01:05

So when did Kashmir terrorists action start?

And what was wrong with last statement?

rsangram
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 68
Joined: 20 Sep 2016 17:54

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby rsangram » 18 May 2017 01:34

No, the second battle of Kashmir started alright, but it did NOT establish that India will finish off Pakistan. In fact, if anything, it established that Pakistan would finish off India. Kashmiri Pandit exodus was the crowning achievement of Pakistan during this period, but there were other major achievements, beyond even the Pakistanis' own wildest dreams.

The third battle is also heading the other way. Pakistan is using what it established from 1989 to 2003, ie., a perfected and proven asymetrical warfare strategy against India, to now cause the "end of India" as we know it.....by separating Kashmir from us.

If we cannot even resettle our own Kashmir Pandits, whose population is rather small in the whole scheme to things, securely in the valley, how can we even think of "the end of Pakistan". It is all imagination. And if we just have to indulge in fantasy, why the fantasy of "end of pakistan", why not conjure up something truly grand......such as "beginning of complete and utter world domination by India before Modi leaves office".


Return to “Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Jaeger, komal, Pratyush, ricky_v, Vyas and 16 guests