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J&K News and Discussion - 2016

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby jagga » 13 Apr 2017 01:03

UJC censures pro-Taliban Kashmir militants, warns them of ‘dire consequences’
Day after a group of ‘unidentified’ pro-Taliban militants appeared at slain militant’s grave in south Kashmir’s Kareemabad village of Pulwom district, Pakistan-based United Jihad Council (UJC) today warned these militants of dire consequences for opposing Pakistan and its flag.

The UJC spokesman said: “Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan has been and is being used by enemies of Islam. Their hands are soaked in the blood of thousands of innocents. On the instance of India and other anti-Islam forces, they are trying to destroy the existence of Pakistan. So, it clearly unveils the reality behind support to this anti-Islam outfit (TTP).”

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 13 Apr 2017 01:20

rohitvats wrote:Very interesting perspective on overall Kashmir insurgency. It is flawed at multiple levels but interesting, nonetheless as it gives peep into other side. And what possible course of action they can take.

http://kashmirdispatch.com/2014/08/22/why-occupation-fails-in-afghanistan-but-succeeds-in-kashmir-and-palestine/125947/

very interesting article rohit! So pukes prefer an afghanistan over a civilized region. For them its like if its comes to us it is doomed and if it doesnt even then it is doomed

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby chetak » 13 Apr 2017 02:03

There has been a change of tone and tenor in the discourse emanating out of cashmere. The jehadis, both overt and covert factions are beginning to converge.

mehbooba seems to have made this possible. She was always openly jehadi and paki pasand. She has considerably quietened down and is this because she is assiduously unravelling the Indian national fabric in cashmere like a termite from within??

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Dipanker » 13 Apr 2017 07:45

CRamS wrote:...
This brings me to option# 3. My own sense is that given the stalemate, there is a latent agreement between the traitors in India and TSP RAPE and their western masters that the only solution is some form of joint sovereignty over Kashmir, meaning TSP must be given a say in the valley. This bit is perfectly acceptable to the traitors in India: Congoons, Communists etc. For them its a natural form of "secularism" they believe in and a way of making India TSP bhai bai, and Hindus Muslims bhai bhai. This is exactly the kind of sell out MMS was involved in with MushRat. I know Dipankar will post some BS links disputing this, but based on their worldview, I can guarantee Congoons will sign on to this.

The only hold outs to option# 3 are Indian nationalists. And TSP will keep pushing the envelope hoping India tires out and agrees to this. They have the pigLeTs and nukes and 3.5 to sustain this warfare indefinitely.

Thus we are back to option# 1, unless India delivers pain big time to TSP RAPE, we are in for a long long haul.


You got that right, here are the links:

Indian Express
New Delhi, the official said, had rejected General Musharraf’s push for institutions for joint management of Kashmir by the two states, arguing it would erode Indian sovereignty.


First Post
However, New Delhi had rejected Musharraf's push for joint management of Kashmir, saying that it would harm Indian sovereignty.


Pak Tribune
However, the official said that India had rejected Musharraf’s push for institutions for joint management of Kashmir by the two states, arguing it would erode Indian sovereignty.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby rohitvats » 13 Apr 2017 10:25

Rudradev wrote: Rohitvats ji,

Can't access the site as it appears to be blocked by my ISP (maybe all over N. America? Not sure).

Could you please copy-paste the whole text of the article? If this is an anti-national website they can't very well complain about copyright infringement :mrgreen:


Sir, as requested:

Why occupation fails in Afghanistan but succeeds in Kashmir and Palestine August 22, 2014 5:25 am in Opinion On July 31, 2014, Kashmir entered its 27th year of armed conflict with the Indian state. While armed struggle has receded over the years, the power of the Indian state has increased in Kashmir. In another part of the world, Palestine was pounded by the Israeli state. They have also been under occupation since 1947 and haven’t been able to end it, despite a galaxy of international intellectuals supporting their cause.

Contrast that with Afghanistan. In 35 years, Afghans are on the verge of successfully throwing another superpower out of their country. When Russia invaded it in 1979, Afghans, with the aid of the United States, defeated the erstwhile USSR. In 2001, US-led NATO forces – comprising the most powerful and militarily-sophisticated nations in the world – invaded Afghanistan. Thirteen years later, the US is trying to find a graceful excuse to exit the country. The question is, why has occupation failed in Afghanistan but succeed in Kashmir and Palestine?

The answer is that in Afghanistan, all invading forces failed to build government institutions, while in Kashmir and Palestine such institutes are aplenty. It is through government institutions that every state derives its power. It is institutions that give legitimacy to states. It was institutions in the Indian subcontinent that helped the British colonise it for so long. Through these government institutions, the British controlled India without a huge army. The 1911 census reveals there were 164,000 British in India. Of those, 106,000 were employed, out of which 66,000 were in the army and police and only 4,000 in the civil service. So ingrained were British institutions in the Indian psyche that independence leaders saw any armed movement against them as terrorism. Mahatma Gandhi did not press for the release of Bhagat Singh and his cohorts when the British held negotiations with him because they had attacked an important institution of the state.

What world powers failed to develop in Afghanistan, poverty-ridden India has been successful in perpetuating in Kashmir. The Indian state works through these institutions, a strategy it inherited from British colonialism.

An army of government employees is a perfect example of fostering colonisation. They are the shield that colonisers use successfully. Every person working in any government office is assisting in colonisation. Government employees in Kashmir are paid to become a sore on society. Afghans were successful in throwing away the yoke because they treated everyone working for the occupiers as collaborators. They didn’t allow any institution to flourish. There were no men going to courts for PILs or to seek justice. There was no human right commission to dictate to the government to look into matters. Afghans did not demand a commission to probe innocent killings at the hands of occupying forces. The Taliban loathed everyone who worked in any capacity for the occupying powers. Taliban ontogenesis can be measured that they realised it is the lower rung people in institutions that are dangerous as compared to officers. Officials of the institutions form plans and give orders, but it is the lower rung people who execute them to attain those objectives.

Any high-ranking official from the police, army or civil administration – his eyes, ears, hands and limbs are lower-rung people. That is why the Taliban’s sword fell more on the people carrying out orders of officials rather than the officers themselves. Without cadres, every officer is vermin.

But here in Kashmir, even the pro-Azadi camp goes to state courts to file cases. Ask them who they are fighting against when they have no qualms in seeking help from state institutions. If one reposes faith in the legal system of the oppressor, then revolution by the oppressed is difficult. The court is an extension of the state. When the oppressed takes complaints to court, it means they have belief and faith in the system of their oppressor. The pro-Azadi camp and their advocates are yet to realise the difference between civil liberties and secessionist movements.

In Kashmir, those who are hoarsely crying that resistance should be institutionalised are moving the movement toward a civil rights one. They want to hold on to their jobs, engage with pro-India people, attend the functions of their activists, host former Indian army officials and receive awards while claiming to be the part of pro-Azadi camp. In which part of the world do people who call themselves secessionists receive awards? How many people in the world working for secessionist movements have had awards bestowed upon them? Awards are given to tame people. By accepting awards and invitations to speak in Indian seminars, who is giving legitimacy to whom?

If India feared that Kashmir was slipping away in the early 1990s, it was because the armed movement had delegitimised state institutions. This delegitimising was the work of the pro-Azadi camp winning the early battle. The state brutally killed Kashmiris and yet no one visited courts to seek justice because people at that time realised the cost of independence. While the State maintained killing graph yet its institutions were getting eroded. The then-governors, Jagmohan Malhotra and Gen K.V. Krishna Rao, focused on providing good roads, better electricity and employment incentives.

The first serious blow to the armed movement came when shills encouraged Kashmiris to accept blood money. In his book, “My Kashmir: Conflict and the Prospects for Enduring Peace,” the former Divisional Commissioner for Kashmir, Wajahat Habibullah, states his joy when one woman named Mehbooba came to him seeking compensation, the first such instance.

“Does Mehbooba know,” writes the shrewd Habibullah, “that she initiated the first hesitant step towards the restoration of peace in Kashmir?”

It was a sign of victory that people were starting to trust an institution of the state against which they were fighting. Other victims followed and in two years time, militancy was delegitimized from people and Kashmir saw the rise of state-backed gunmen infamously called Ikhwanis, who excelled in killing, torture, rape, extortion, kidnapping and hooliganism. After the renewed uprising in 2010, Kashmiris expected severe retribution. Indeed, it was cruel. State police, along with Indian troops, exemplified retaliation toward youth. Many videos and pictures went viral on social networking sites. These pictures show the Jammu & Kashmir police committing horrendous crimes against humanity. Youth were stripped and made to walk naked. (www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAVGu_KBy70). Young people arrested by the police were allegedly used for sadistic pleasure. Pictures of police beating kids and handcuffing them are available on the internet.

Protests between 2008 and 2010 also made the state aware that schools, colleges and university students do take active part in the freedom struggle. To curtail hatred toward the police department, officials can now be seen attending school functions as special guests where they distribute prizes. The strategy is to penetrate the minds of impressionable kids.

Nobody can beat the police in terms of importance. They are a source of strength for most of governments of police states. And every oppressor gives the police liberties to suppress dissent. Even the army knows the importance of policing. That is why they have huge respect for the police. Without the support of the local police, Kashmir’s rebellion could not be controlled. It is the police that acts as the eyes and ears of the Indian administration. Because usually it consists of the local populace and they get to know many things without being cocky about them. Conversely, armed militants had the upper hand in Kashmir precisely because local police did not act against them. But once the police rebellion was quelled, they were lured to act against their own people. Police, in any conflict, is then the first renegade force used against popular sentiment.

Today the police at the forefront of quelling protests have mostly come from the assimilated notorious Ikhwanis or the Special Operation Group, which were shadowy militias until the Mephistophelian Mufti Sayeed decked them out in government uniform. He institutionalised Ikhwanis.

Even some Kashmiri journalists, who have reported on and understand state machinations, now provide legitimacy to institutions that have been created to promote “Sufi Islam” and “eliminate insurgency.” They go to such institutions as guest speakers, in the process legitimizing a centre that is considered pariah.

Assembly elections in 1996 were considered a major step toward reviving a crucial state institute in Kashmir, though it was a sham.
(http://www.nytimes.com/1996/05/24/world ... votes.html?
pagewanted=all&src=pm). The old collaborator party, the National Conference, once again came to power in Kashmir. Those begging for votes were not delegitimised or ostracised from society. At that time, the then-united Hurriyat Conference leader Abdul Gani Bhat said elections are a non-issue for them. That non-issue helped validate pro-India politics. In the next two assembly elections, people realised the Hurriyat leaders’ doublespeak and voter turnout was higher than average. In that process, not only was pro-India politics legitimised, but pro-Azadi sentiment – dominant in the Valley – was relegated to a sect. Today the pro-Azadi camp condemns the arrest of its own leaders. Why they do this is befuddling. If those who claim to leaders of a secessionist movement are not arrested, then who will be?

In 2008, when Kashmiris protested in unison against the occupation, the state announced election dates in Kashmir. Polls saw people queuing up to vote for state institutions. That same year, massive protests erupted against the controversial Amarnath shrine board’s decision to grab 800 kanals of land. Amidst that agitation, a subtle campaign was launched through SMS where youth were prodded to crack the civil service exam to “secure the interests of Kashmiris” and in future avoid the mistake of handing over land on a platter. It was superbly crafted bait. Since 2008, it has been a rat race to the bureaucracy in Kashmir. After qualifying for the civil service, most candidates naively say they want to help Kashmir develop. If all of Kashmir plunges into the civil service, the system is such that draconian laws such as PSA and AFSPA will never be repealed, much less any progress on development. But by congratulating people through newspapers, one is giving legitimacy to the institutions of the state.

Intellectualism is the primary problem of Palestine and Kashmir. Rather than fighting Israel, Palestinians were manipulated to pick up the pen and write their pathos. You can’t beat missiles with books. What is the worth of books for slaves? Much favourable literature, protests, boycotts, prayers have been offered for the Palestinian cause but it has not liberated them. And it won’t. You can’t fight missiles with books. Even if all the intellectuals of the world came together in support of Palestine, they wouldn’t be able to retrieve an inch of land from the occupier. The power of intellectuals is like the wool of sheep that can be sheared anytime by the powerful.

No one supported Afghanistan and no one supports them even today, yet the US and its allied forces are packing up. If Afghans had been writing books they would have met the same fate Kashmir and Palestine are witnessing.

From KashmirDispatch: http://wp.me/p6XoZF-wLp

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby tsarkar » 13 Apr 2017 12:48

I'm badly stuck at work, but wanted to bring out a few important points.

manjgu wrote:what has really caught my eye is number of small kids in footage coming out of kashmir and syria , Iraq etc. looks the woman have no role except as baby machines... these guys are either fornicating, pelting stones or shooting guns !! and all of them look well fed to boot..no sign of war ravaged famished sickly looking kids ...


You're absolutely right in your observations. Insurgency needs money to sustain logistics. Pakistan has built up a network of global financiers that are funding this insurgency via hawala money transferred during cross border trade.

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/j-k-bord ... ?site=full

http://www.firstpost.com/india/demoneti ... 13810.html

Secondly, colonisation by reproduction is a well known passive subversion tactic. Infact some districts in Jammu & Ladakh have rapidly growing KM populations that will soon become majority. All sustained by a Global Jehadi Financing that believes in Ghazwa-e-Hind Hadith.

Just like Kitchner opened concentration camps for Boers and Sagat Singh / Sam Maneckshaw opened progressive villages for Mizos and Chinese are settling Tibetans, there is a serious need to isolate the people from Jehadi financing and ideology.

Chetak is right - Mehbooba Mufti and Abdullahs are playing both sides and we urgently need to stop the financing and start re-education via new progressive villages with one/two child norms

Cross border trade tamasha is such a charade used by Pakistanis to infiltrate, finance & subvert

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ShauryaT » 13 Apr 2017 19:04

>>Just like Kitchner opened concentration camps for Boers and Sagat Singh / Sam Maneckshaw opened progressive villages for Mizos and Chinese are settling Tibetans, there is a serious need to isolate the people from Jehadi financing and ideology.

We need to change the game. For every Jawan who serves in Kashmir, provide an acre of land in a fertile valley to settle. The ideology business primarily comes from across the border. Long term it is in best interests of India to assist a significant section of the the muslim population to fight this ideological battle. I think one thing the Hindu mind should be clear on, we cannot let the muslims of India simply be unengaged to be harvested and fester our civilizational wounds. A state has a lot of power, we cannot just rely on the iron fence, need strong leadership to ensure that termites do not kill us from within.

It is in the BJP manifesto to remove article 370, the PM needs to show leadership and get this done. At the same time, make Pakistan pay for each and every casualty in Kashmir.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby CRamS » 13 Apr 2017 19:09

Dipankar, cut the crap. I see clealry the contrours of what the Congoons and other traitors are mooving towards. The whole machination, not allowing BJP to govern J&K started from the day BJP entered into a statesman-like alliance with PDP. A combination of TSP and Indian traitors scuttled that. Please read Sonia Gandhi arse licking slave's seditious puke. And recall he urged TSP to take out ModiJi so the following game plan can be achieved:

http://www.ndtv.com/opinion/what-tv-cha ... topstories


Also, barring some drafting changes that were still under negotiation, there was agreement that both political freedoms and economic development on either side of the Line of Control must be balanced and matching, and that an appropriate joint mechanism be devised to harmonize growth in all sectors in both parts of the old Riyasat . Tragically, progress in this meaningful and substantive sense stalled when Musharraf ran into difficulty with his judiciary in early March 2007, just weeks before Dr Manmohan Singh was due to visit Islamabad to unveil the details of the progress made .



Don't give me some crap links. Call it a CT if you want, but I see something afoot in the back channels between "South Asians" and their colonial masters to do exactly what MSA describes above. Only BJP stands between them and thats why the hatred even going to the extent of saying (Chidambarm) that BJP in Kashmir is an "affront" to KMs. How much more clues do you need?

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Dipanker » 14 Apr 2017 01:14

@CRamS man, You are certainly entitled to your CT's but to not your own facts.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby CRamS » 14 Apr 2017 01:29

Dipanker wrote:@CRamS man, You are certainly entitled to your CT's but to not your own facts.


Did you read that Sonia Gandhi slave's puke? Are you telling me that his thinking is not indicate of other slaves of her including MMS?

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 14 Apr 2017 01:38

hopefully the issues e.g. Article 370, POK and the question of Pakistan will be resolved after 2019 reelection of this government

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Rudradev » 14 Apr 2017 04:25

Rohitvats ji, thanks very much. That is indeed a fascinating read. It offers a plausible explanation for why a BJP-PDP coalition government was necessary in the valley... for all its faults and drawbacks it ensures the continuity of institutional authority.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ShauryaT » 14 Apr 2017 05:14

I wrote this as input to my daughter 's high school class debate topic on Kashmir. She was on the India team (thank the gods). This is in massaland. All of you probably know this already but thought i will share.

*Kashmir’s links with India are pre-historical with documented linkages going back about 5000 years
• The very name Kashmir comes from one of the seven metaphorical progenitor sages of Indian civilization. Incidentally, our family too traces our roots to sage Kashyap said to have founded Kashmir.
• Kashmir’s peoples have been an integral part of and have contributed to the cultural, literary, and shared experiences with the rest of the Indian civilization. Some examples include works of knowledge in Sanskrit, grammar, music. Major philosophies of Shaivism, Tantric and Advaita Vedanta unify Kashmir with the rest of the Indian civilization, historically. Even Tibetan Buddhism spread into Tibet and beyond from Kashmir.
• In medieval times, Islamic rulers started to gain control and once they gain controlled of the kingdom as it was with tyrant kings, it was easy to convert most of the population to the King’s faith – just like England changed from catholic to protestant beliefs with a change in belief of its monarch. The atrocities of some of these Islamic kings on the local population are gut wrenching.
• In the 18th and 19th centuries, the British colonized India with Kashmir under a Hindu king but nevertheless all of India, whether under a King or not under control of the British. From the Himalayas to the oceans, India was always one united land and Kashmir a part of it – the British saw it no other way. When the British finally left there were nearly 600 such kingdoms, who’s fate was to be either be with India or Pakistan or stay independent
• The Hindu maharaja of Kashmir decided to be independent and had a standstill agreement signed with India and Pakistan.
• Pakistan broke this agreement and sent Islamic hordes along with army irregulars into Kashmir. The maharaja asked for India’s protection and signed the instrument of accession just like the 600 odd other kingdoms had, legally making Kashmir a sovereign territory of India.
• Pakistan never reconciled to this accession based on the two nation theory, which India has never accepted being a plural, tolerant and democratic state with about 18% minorities, including 14% muslims. i.e: about 170 million muslims in India today – by and large living peacefully with equal rights.
• Kashmir subsequent to the accession with India, has had many elections local, state and national giving voice to its peoples and just like any other developing nation, has had its share of problems
• The one thing that has exasperated the situation is Pakistan’s direct and indirect terrorism in the state through support of arms, materials and indeed personnel – making much of Kashmir a war like state under army control to fight this external aggression
• Last year, a new age terrorist called Burhan Wani was killed by Indian forces. Burhan wani was not even masquerading as a freedom fighter for Kashmir, his goals articulated in social media was unity with the Ummah – the exact same cause of the Islamic State (ISIS)
• There can be no doubt that Kashmir is deeply connected with the civilization, history and topography of what constitutes India. Legally, the integration of the state was like all other kingdoms that merged with India on independence. The subsequent nature of India to treat all its peoples in a democratic, rights oriented, plural and secular framework further provides credibility to its governance
• The American interest should be guided by its values, which are closer to India’s as opposed to the values espoused by those who sound like ISIS.
• Kashmir always has and will be an integral part of India, not leaving American’s much choice in the matter

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ramana » 14 Apr 2017 05:54

ShauryT, Great job. Should be carried around as debating points to be sued as occasion demands.

CRS, Don't get hyper. Yes there is plan afoot and MSA the skunk is the torch bearer.

All this is because Mehbooba Mufti had said Only emotional integration with India is left. All others are already in place.

Abdullahs are going crazy as they see the game slipping away.

Meantime China is offering US a role in CPEC to avoid a trade war with Trump.

India is watching.

Go by what Ram Madhav types say or don't say.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 14 Apr 2017 07:12

SharyaSir Great job!, Our generation should make it a point to make our kids remember this from heart..

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby CRamS » 14 Apr 2017 07:18

Shaurya, I would like add one or two lines highlighting that those KMs demand for secession is an expression of Islamic fascism from those who are unwilling to live in a multi-ethnic secular democracy. Furthermore, India has spent vast amount of resources to develop the region.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Neshant » 14 Apr 2017 07:44

Its time to cut off the funds and spend it elsewhere.

Just do it. Stop pandering to these a-holes.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby rohitvats » 14 Apr 2017 10:43

Rudradev wrote:Rohitvats ji, thanks very much. That is indeed a fascinating read. It offers a plausible explanation for why a BJP-PDP coalition government was necessary in the valley... for all its faults and drawbacks it ensures the continuity of institutional authority.


Welcome.

And as you said, very fascinating indeed. Gives a peek into the mind-set and the game being played. However, it is flawed at multiple levels. Foremost, I think there is tendency to adopt a gun-based resistance movement because of Islamic history and identification with the whole Jihad stuff.

It is not a strategy adapted to ground situation but cookie-cutter approach. Palestine style intifada or Taliban style gun-based strategy should be basis some cold calculation of ground situation, ROI and end-objective. And not try to force fit a strategy hoping it will get results. Pakistan tried Taliban style in Kashmir. Kashmiris went with it. But nothing happened. Because on ground dynamics were different. We made the LOC almost impregnable, raised the RR and went for grid-style area dominance with massive pumping in of troops and simply eliminated the militants and removed the ability of gun to be a factor in any future decision.

Intifada type is more attractive solution but lacks end-game. It is good to get more concessions, 'peace-talks', R&D on English MSM, intellectual m@sturbation, may be remove laws like AFPSA but nothing more. Not azaadi for sure.

Waiting for your response.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 14 Apr 2017 21:32


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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby SBajwa » 14 Apr 2017 22:11


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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby manjgu » 14 Apr 2017 22:23

made my day !!! abdullahs and muftis should be tied ..and also geelani and the mirawiz...!!

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby sudeepj » 14 Apr 2017 22:30

chetak wrote:There has been a change of tone and tenor in the discourse emanating out of cashmere. The jehadis, both overt and covert factions are beginning to converge.

mehbooba seems to have made this possible. She was always openly jehadi and paki pasand. She has considerably quietened down and is this because she is assiduously unravelling the Indian national fabric in cashmere like a termite from within??


Mehbooba is at least saying the right things. One thing we must understand about Kashmiri politicians is that they follow the mob, not lead. Just as Pakistan is run by the three As, Allah, America and Army, Kashmir is run by India, Pakistan and the mob. Had the Abdullahs been in govt. and Muftis in opposition, they would have each been saying what the other is saying right now. These losers do not have any agency, therefore to fulminate about what they are doing or saying (because they cant really do anything) is futile.

Pakistan has wound up the mob using Islamism as the wound up spring and periodically the wound up monkeys start jumping around. When the mob does start jumping around, the politicians say things that are in sync with the mob. I honestly dont see people who are as corrupt as the Abdullas or the Muftis being so daring as to cause the recent trouble. They have a lot to lose.

The problem is, India has refused to win in Kashmir. The problem is, we have struck at the branches of the problem, not the roots. While the Pak Jihadi complex needs to be wound down, internally, we need to get rid of 370 and either force an integration or let these troubled people go to find their heaven in PoK. Having them around, free to spew their venom of Islamism will eventually infect the rest of the Muslims in India.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby titash » 14 Apr 2017 23:17

SBajwa wrote:


See this is the part about traditional media that gets my goat. If I look at what Srinagar i tweeting, it's all about IPL, Movies, etc. Not a single trend that has anything to do with India Bad Pakis Good.

http://www.trends24.org/india/srinagar/index.html

A the end of the day aam junta just want khao pio aish karo. For God's sake #जवानों_को_सलाम is the 3rd trend today. Why exactly does HT get unshaven wannabe journalists to write tripe such as "Why Gautam Gambhir should not speak on Kashmir"?

Ditto in Pakistan...http://www.trends24.org/pakistan/rawalpindi/index.html just 80 miles across in Pakistan. Seems that GHQ Rawalpindi's kids are more interested in Imran Khan IPL of all things.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby shyamal » 14 Apr 2017 23:41

I hope the RR Unit does not get penalized for this and they continue with such innovative ideas.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby anupmisra » 14 Apr 2017 23:46

manjgu wrote:made my day !!! abdullahs and muftis should be tied ..and also geelani and the mirawiz...!!


Not that I condone the action but this reminds me of a scene from the film called Hatari. Have you seen that one?

Image

You can headline the RR photo as "hat-re" (get out of my way).

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby tsarkar » 14 Apr 2017 23:50

Some datapoints, during the 1936-1939 Arab Intifada in Palestine where Arabs went around destroying railway lines and afforestation efforts as un-Islamic, the British tied Arabs to bumpers to avoid grenade / IED / Sniper Attacks

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936–1939_Arab_revolt_in_Palestine

Image

So IA did nothing that the British didn't do earlier. Please use these datapoints to respond to DDMs on Twitter/Social Media

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby brvarsh » 15 Apr 2017 00:02

Next step should be all stone pelters be treated as Illegals from Pakistan and should be put in jail. The video showing the stone pelter tied to a Jeep is a clear message - Enough is enough.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby anupmisra » 15 Apr 2017 00:07

Baramulla attackers used ‘civilians’ as human shields to escape

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... kDjtM.html

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby anupmisra » 15 Apr 2017 00:09

The Pakistani Army is using Baloch citizens as human shields by setting up military camps and detention centers inside Baloch populations by encroaching on schools, colleges and community centers.


https://baluchsarmachar.wordpress.com/2 ... ields-bnm/

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby shyamal » 15 Apr 2017 00:39

The army is temporarily borrowing the services of a peaceful man to ward off bloodshed, death and injuries to the peaceful local population :P
How can someone object to such a peaceful solution?

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Rudradev » 15 Apr 2017 01:38

rohitvats wrote:
Rudradev wrote:Rohitvats ji, thanks very much. That is indeed a fascinating read. It offers a plausible explanation for why a BJP-PDP coalition government was necessary in the valley... for all its faults and drawbacks it ensures the continuity of institutional authority.


Welcome.

And as you said, very fascinating indeed. Gives a peek into the mind-set and the game being played. However, it is flawed at multiple levels. Foremost, I think there is tendency to adopt a gun-based resistance movement because of Islamic history and identification with the whole Jihad stuff.

It is not a strategy adapted to ground situation but cookie-cutter approach. Palestine style intifada or Taliban style gun-based strategy should be basis some cold calculation of ground situation, ROI and end-objective. And not try to force fit a strategy hoping it will get results. Pakistan tried Taliban style in Kashmir. Kashmiris went with it. But nothing happened. Because on ground dynamics were different. We made the LOC almost impregnable, raised the RR and went for grid-style area dominance with massive pumping in of troops and simply eliminated the militants and removed the ability of gun to be a factor in any future decision.

Intifada type is more attractive solution but lacks end-game. It is good to get more concessions, 'peace-talks', R&D on English MSM, intellectual m@sturbation, may be remove laws like AFPSA but nothing more. Not azaadi for sure.

Waiting for your response.


Rohitvats ji,

No coherent response yet but a few random thoughts come to mind.

1) The KD author seems to tout the "Taliban model" of all-out confrontation and jihadi guerilla warfare as more likely to result in a "win". In fact, there is no proof of this. It derives from the false historical narrative of the British, who failed to subdue Afghanistan... and, having failed, came up with the H&D-saving story of "this land is the graveyard of ALL empires" :roll: After all, if they couldn't subdue it, they had to pretend that nobody else could either.

However, Afghanistan can and has been invaded and subjugated for long periods throughout history, as we all know, most recently by the Sikh Empire (who could have stayed there as long as they wanted, and in fact retreated only because of political difficulties in Lahore, not in the face of resistance from the locals).

Despite all the US and Paki claims of the 1980s, the USSR was not defeated by the guerilla campaign; it was the general collapse of the Soviet Union politically and economically that compelled a withdrawal. Otherwise they could have hung on forever. Never quite at peace perhaps, but certainly retaining control over the political and economic future of Afghanistan.

And today, let's face it, the US is still very much in strategic control over Afghanistan. They have nearly 10,000 troops there, and air assets, intelligence apparatus, whatever else they need. They control communications and resource allocation; the Kabul ANG rules at their pleasure and is completely dependent upon them for everything from internal security to food aid. Beyond a point it doesn't matter if Taliban is running parallel panchayats here and there and chopping the heads off villagers. Whatever America needs to get done by occupying Afghanistan... e.g. droning Al Qaedas as and when they please, dropping MOAB on ISIS whenever they like, having a veto on whether China can link up with Russia or Iran through OBOR... America can very much do that.

If it came to that, I would rather India have this same degree of strategic control over ALL of Kashmir (including POK and Northern Areas) than not. Doesn't matter if we don't have a Kumbaya-Kashmiriyat state of limitless communal harmony, opportunity and prosperity under the tricolor. That would be nice, but if it never happens, the US' current situation in Afghanistan is far better than nothing.

So, all in all... The KD author has overly romanticized the "Taliban resistance" model. It doesn't work either. It just means that the resisters themselves have to be ready to act and risk their lives, not simply give interviews and cry crocodile tears on the lecture circuit.

2) The endgame of intifada-type (I-type) resistance movements is not the same for all players. It is almost never actual secession or azaadi... that is the pipedream sold to the maximum number of ground-level menial players, but almost all the mid- and high-level leaders know very well that it is never going to happen.

More so... the mid- and high-level leaders in many cases, do not WANT it to happen.

Why? Because the endgame of I-type resistance movement is the continuation of the movement itself. Nothing else. Intifada is an industry... NOT a productive industry, but a parasitic relationship in which the resisted country's institutions, especially local institutions, are the "host" while the resistance leaders and their networks are the "parasite".

The status quo that the leaders strive for is one where the resisting limb of the host is always dysfunctional, always sub-optimal in its integration, always unstable and insecure. But the leaders themselves never want the host to die, or the limb to fall off. They will blackmail and posture, gain fame and fortune by currying the sympathetic favour of international academicians, human-rights organizations, and similar governmental or NGO busybodies. They will scream and shout "Azaadi" but they know fully well that the gravy train would come to the last stop the moment they actually got it.

3) In J&K in particular, the intifada has exhausted its "Or Else What" potential.

Every resistance movement, particularly an I-type one that is principally political (relying on civil disorder and propaganda victories), is empowered by the "Or Else What" scenario.

For example: "if you don't give in to my demands because of my poor disturbed college students raising slogans in the streets, those college students will take up the gun/RDX/IED, blood will flow everywhere, and then you will have only yourselves to blame for not listening to me. So you better give in to my demands OR ELSE my I-type resistance will become a T-type resistance. And you will be sorry."

In J&K the "Or Else What" bluff was called in 1989 itself. The "Or Else What" scenario presented itself in 1990, had been completely hijacked by a Pakistani t-type guerilla war as of 1993, and through the efforts you describe (LOC fortification, RR deployment, security grid-based dominance) we crippled it for the most part by 2004 or so. Since then there have been BATs assaults along LOC and IB, terrorist attacks on other areas of India by Paki tanzeems and their Indian subsidiaries (SIMI etc), episodes of LOC firing, and resumption of a stone-pelting I-type resistance movement in J&K itself. Many different moves being made but with seemingly no coordinated strategy... everyone from UJC to LeT to JEM to ISI, to even Geelani vs. Umar Farooq vs. Abdullahs vs. Muftis, seems to want something different. And note that the spectrum extends all the way from ISI in Pakistan to people who are sitting in Kashmir legislature and Indian parliament, but it is one continuous spectrum... so the centrifugal pulls of all the different players pursuing different strategies across the spectrum are a constant source of strain upon its cohesiveness.

If you look at the history of the three Intifadas in Israel (1st: 1987-90, 2nd: 2000-2003, 3rd: 2015-present "stabbing intifada") ALL were defeated for exactly this reason. Because the multiple actors: street resisters, political leaders, leftist/anti-colonial (PLO/Fatah-type) militants, jihadi militants, "non-state" proxy militants of other countries... all had different strategies they were pursuing.

In contrast Israel went the other way and found commonality of strategy, at least on the isolated issue of Palestinian separatism, with whichever other actors they could... Jordan, GCC etc... and thus retained the upper hand in spite of all the sound and fury the i-type resisters were creating.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby anupmisra » 15 Apr 2017 01:53

shyamal wrote:The army is temporarily borrowing the services of a peaceful man to ward off bloodshed, death and injuries to the peaceful local population :P How can someone object to such a peaceful solution?


IA should reward the peaceful kashmiri for his selfless services.Next time put geelani on the hood. All the guy did was sit securely on top of the hood for a ride. Pakis and liberals are making the joy ride look like the one from Mad Max.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Rudradev » 15 Apr 2017 02:16

KASHMIR: NEXUS OF MEDIA AND VIOLENCE

Interview with Madhu Kishwar by Rajiv Malhotra

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iGdwJ3nQcs

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ShauryaT » 15 Apr 2017 03:39

Rohitvats: Agree with your assessment of the actual ground situation. Even if we overnight assume that our brave Kashmiris will be as pig headed as the Taleban are, where will they get the gun from? It was the availability of the gun, with receding state control that allowed the emergence of the Taleban. It was so ingrained in the pashtun lands that even after a dearming exercise each person was "officially" allowed to retain one weapon.

The gun which was allowed to seep in the 90's is gone for good with the iron fence on the border and the grid control of the RR. The article has one thing right it is the strengthening of state institutions that is the biggest threat to their cause. At best an intifada type movement seeks to attract foreign power and unlike Israel, India is not a dependent party. Furthermore an Islamic intifada, which is what this will be portrayed as, has no sympathies anymore from anyone. India should leave all inhibitions aside and move full forward with further integration of the state.

RD: Good post.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby disha » 15 Apr 2017 06:06

I am upset with the KM Jehadi tied to the front of the jeep.

I would be more happy if two-three were tied low around the jeep as well.

And none on the bus that followed! They should put two in front of the bus as well. This will ensure that if there is any stone pelting., it is the KM Jehadis who take the brunt.

The hoo-ha and the breast-beating rona-dhona by rNDTV class #mediapimps will be of the same decibel level anyway! If it is one or if it is five-six!

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby UlanBatori » 15 Apr 2017 06:41

SBajwa wrote:

Wearing gray jeans on right leg, blue on left. Like MGR wearing red_green pants?

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby UlanBatori » 15 Apr 2017 06:44

In the old days they were accused of making the momeen do a "frog-jump" ahead of the jeep. Now they are given a luxury seat and seat-belt?

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby vasu raya » 15 Apr 2017 08:29

Just days before the stone pelters killed a bus driver who turned out to be muslim and they probably attended his funeral as well. The effect of this in subduing the stone pelters in relation to the use of pellet guns has to be appreciated.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Mihaylo » 15 Apr 2017 09:57

UlanBatori wrote:
SBajwa wrote:

Wearing gray jeans on right leg, blue on left. Like MGR wearing red_green pants?



Mad Max Indian iShtyle :D

-M

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby manjgu » 15 Apr 2017 12:54

Farooq Abdullah leads in Srinagar bypoll !


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