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J&K News and Discussion - 2016

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Dipanker
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Dipanker » 13 Feb 2018 04:04

RKumar wrote:Btw ... peace didn't work for us during last 70 years. Now give GoI, 10 years to use force against napak.


When exactly we had peace in last 70 years??

War 1947 - 1949
War 1965
War 1971
War 1984 ( Siachen )
War 1999 ( Kargil )
Near War 2002 ( Operation Parakram)
Proxy War 1947 - Present
Proxy War @ elevated Level 1989 - Present

If we take the average every 14 years we have had hot war with the Paki otherwise we have continuous proxy war since 1947 and at elevated level since 1989.

If we go by the average, right about now a hot war is serious due and all the ingredients are already there, 100's of terrorist attacks, many of them on army camps, and 100's of lives lost.

What we have right now is a policy creep. The policy of upping the ante has not worked, simply because of the successive govts.both past and present apparently do not have the stomach to further up the ante, so the policy creep.

The policy is not working, it needs be reevaluated and proper corrective measures taken.
Last edited by Dipanker on 13 Feb 2018 06:22, edited 3 times in total.

ArjunPandit
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 13 Feb 2018 05:42

^^Did we forget the Op Parakram. IIRC it was not all quite then.

Dipanker
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Dipanker » 13 Feb 2018 05:45

You are right, should have included that too, o.k. edited my post and added it.

Aditya_V
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 13 Feb 2018 10:49

It was the causualtises of Operation Parakram that bought the subsequent ceasefire. Need to inflict similair causualties for Pakis to temporarily deescalate.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby RKumar » 13 Feb 2018 14:18

Shameek wrote:
RKumar wrote:Pigs should be burned instead of bury to ensure that they get the message, we will not allow them to get their 72 before or after life. Hit where it hurt the most.


This is easy to say but not to implement. There are multiple parties waiting for exactly something like this to make it a communal issue in India. (Look at how India treats Muslims etc.) The army is walking a very difficult tightrope situation. Then you have people like M A Lone shout pro Porkistan slogans in the Assembly and then tell the media that he is a Muslim first before being an Indian...


Lets fine tune it, Any non-Indian or high-value terrorist should be burned and others handed over to families.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby RKumar » 13 Feb 2018 14:30

Dipanker wrote:
RKumar wrote:Btw ... peace didn't work for us during last 70 years. Now give GoI, 10 years to use force against napak.


When exactly we had peace in last 70 years??

War 1947 - 1949
War 1965
War 1971
War 1984 ( Siachen )
War 1999 ( Kargil )
Near War 2002 ( Operation Parakram)
Proxy War 1947 - Present
Proxy War @ elevated Level 1989 - Present

If we take the average every 14 years we have had hot war with the Paki otherwise we have continuous proxy war since 1947 and at elevated level since 1989.

If we go by the average, right about now a hot war is serious due and all the ingredients are already there, 100's of terrorist attacks, many of them on army camps, and 100's of lives lost.

What we have right now is a policy creep. The policy of upping the ante has not worked, simply because of the successive govts.both past and present apparently do not have the stomach to further up the ante, so the policy creep.

The policy is not working, it needs be reevaluated and proper corrective measures taken.


If you check our history, even before, during, and after wars with Napakis - we were always too kind to return the prisoners and land without gaining anything due to ploicy fu*kup. This lets the napakis dominate our national attention for too long and costing us too much economically as well as military sense. This time around, there should not be any free lunch. There will intense pressure from western as well as Chinese side but we should not give up.

I wish govt, act proactively and merge Maldive with India for once and all. They have no means to stand against Chinese or IS and will be occupied by one of them sooner or later. In either case, it will be a problem for us. Better solve this now then later and change the demography of the "Sagarmala" state by relocating the stationed army families over there. Declare Universal Indian rules in the whole of India, no exception.

nvishal
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby nvishal » 13 Feb 2018 16:48



Video from 2014 showing pakistani guerillas sneaking near Indian bunkers and executing Indian soldiers.

Question is,

1) do you blame the indian soldier for being carefree on the battlefield? or

2) do you blame the Pakistanis for being bold and venturing in these missions with camera equipment? One is filming and the others are shooting.

Aditya_V
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 13 Feb 2018 17:46

The problem is with our goverments over 71 years, it should have been clear in 1947 that we needed to break up Pakistan and there can be no peace with the Jihadi state. Everything in that nation is about Jihad. Unless it is broken up and defanged it will not stop trying to kill Indians.

wig
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby wig » 13 Feb 2018 18:49

regarding Article 35A it was brought about by a Presidential order dated 14may 1954. It has not been through Parliament. I might observe that Parliament should of necessity have discussed and passed this Article so that it can be a part of the Constitution. No such procedure ( of which I am aware) was followed over the past decades.Now that its validity is being questioned in the Apex Court.
And the lawyers defending Art 35A have been paid the sum of Rs45 lacs out of public money.
source
To defend Article 35-A, the team of four advocates representing Jammu and Kashmir in the Supreme Court charged Rs 45 lakh.
Standing Counsel for the JK at Supreme Court, M Shoeb Alam, in December 2017, wrote a letter to JK Law Department about fee to be paid to the four senior advocates, who represented JK in the apex court in 2017 to defend the Article 35-A.

https://www.kashmirmonitor.in/Details/142831/

on top of it as many as seven thousand + electric connection were allotted to Rohingyas in the area adjoining the military area

7273 electric connections have been provided to #RohingyaIslamists in Jammu
Dy CM @NirmalSinghBJP 's Power Development Dept also providing electric connections to them.

https://twitter.com/Prof_HariOm/status/ ... 7176698880

there is nothing to expect from this govt in the centre and state

Supratik
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Supratik » 13 Feb 2018 19:22

HariOm is not a good source as his biases are well known. Article 35A is the key. Unfortunately we have people like Nariman willing to fight for separatists. Hope the petitioners have a battery of equally good lawyers. If it fails in SC will have to wait for numbers in parliament to overturn law as it violates several things.

IndraD
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby IndraD » 13 Feb 2018 19:46

Prof hari Om is another Togadia, his sole objective is to criticise state & central govt without giving solutions. What is evidence this amount was paid? A site only? Besides how can India disconnect electricity supply to an area when Rohingya is an international issue knowing well such a step will be abused by West & Gulf?

chetak
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby chetak » 14 Feb 2018 06:50

x posted from the terroristan thread

What an insidious agreement and that too one seen as the pinnacle of achievement for a very very mediocre Indian politician, and a two faced international double dealing rogue, an agreement entered into by two jokers who were not even born in the countries that they profess allegiance to.

No wonder the paki musharaff was desperately running, first behind ABV, and then behind his less than mediocre successor, trying to get his OK for a one sided deal that would have sunk India and caused widespread rioting here resulting in the fall of the incumbent govt.

Borders being made irrelevant or simply brains being made irrelevant is the actual question to be asked of the great sardar??

Those Asking For ‘Dialogue With Pakistan’ Better Read This First



Those Asking For ‘Dialogue With Pakistan’ Better Read This First

by Raghav Awasthi, Feb 13, 2018,

Snapshot
Let us talk to the silent majority of the Kashmir Valley who would still be receptive to the idea of India, and until then, talks of ‘dialogue with Pakistan’ ought to be dismissed summarily.


The history of the Jammu and Kashmir Light Infantry can be traced back to the Pakistani invasion of Kashmir in the winter of 1947. In the face of a determined onslaught by the ostensibly ‘tribal’ invaders, the people of the Kashmir Valley organised themselves into militias in order to mount what was ultimately to be an eminently successful resistance. The birth of these militias was midwifed by cadres of the National Conference, including but not limited to the redoubtable Bakshi Ghulam Mohammed, who later went on to serve as the prime minister of Kashmir after Sheikh Abdullah was deposed following the Kashmir conspiracy case of 1953.

The said militias were initially deployed as a paramilitary force on the Line of Control or LoC (then known as the Ceasefire Line) before they were promoted to the status of a full regiment of the Indian Army in 1976. Like most other regiments of the Indian Army, it draws its rank and file from fixed ethnicities. Almost 50 per cent of its personnel are recruited from amongst the Muslim populace of the Kashmir Valley, while the rest are drawn from the other ethnic groups of the state of Jammu and Kashmir.

The Sujuwan Army camp, which came under attack by the Pakistan-based terror outfit-the Jaish-e-Mohammed, on 10 February 2018, was being occupied by personnel of the regiment and their families at the relevant time. The details of the attack and whether it could be prevented with better preparation and intelligence gathering, need not concern us at the moment and an analysis of the same is best left to defence experts. Having said that, the attack is merely a link in the larger chain of events whereby ethnic Kashmiri Muslims who have chosen to serve their country thereby refusing to act as foot-soldiers for Pakistan’s jihad project, have been targeted. The lynchings of Lt Umer Fayyaz (March 2017) and Ayub Pandith (July 2017) are cases in point and are still relatively fresh in public memory.

The worrying part here though is not that these attacks are taking place. The same are to be expected for the simple reason that since Narendra Modi’s ascent to power in 2014 and Ram Madhav’s appointment as the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) general secretary in charge of Kashmir and North East affairs, a concerted policy of elimination of high profile militant targets like Burhan Wani has been adopted and effectuated with more than a fair measure of success. As a matter of fact, what should concern us is that no less a personage than the Chief Minister of Jammu and Kashmir is making noises about how talks with Pakistan are the only solution to the problem. A visitor from Mars who has but a passing acquaintance with the Indian Constitution and the Constitution of Jammu and Kashmir as well as the Instrument of Accession would be tempted to ask as to what the ‘talks’ are going to achieve and whether after 70 years of talks, India and Pakistan have ever come close to agreeing upon a working solution to the problem, even in theory, leaving aside the question of implementation.

The answer to this question is likely to differ depending upon who it is put to. The average ‘nationalist’ who is likely to be labelled as ‘communal’ would tell you that there is absolutely no point in talking peace with Pakistan given their perfidious record. The garden variety bleeding heart would tell you that the Kashmiris should be given aazaadi. As a matter of fact, a prominent columnist and editor went so far as to advocate secession for Kashmir in 2008 inter alia because India need not concern itself with a region which was not even half as populous as the National Capital Territory of Delhi.

Ostensibly, enlightened travellers on the strategic and Track II circuit from both India and Pakistan would tell you that the solution lies in the ‘Four Point Formula’ that was agreed upon between then Indian prime minister Manmohan Singh and the Pakistani president Pervez Musharraf before the latter was deposed in December 2007. Both, the former Indian premier and the Pakistani military dictator later went on record to state that the formula had been agreed upon in principle at the highest level and it was only the modalities that were left to be worked out before the Lawyers’ Agitation in the winter of 2007 unseated Musharraf. Sanjaya Baru-the former editor of the Financial Express who served as the media advisor to Dr Manmohan Singh during the United Progressive Alliance (UPA) I years, has also attested to the veracity of the assertion in his book The Accidental Prime Minister. He has also gone on record to say that if ever the Kashmir dispute is to be resolved, the template has to be the aforementioned formula. Similar claims have been made by Khurshid Ahmed Kasuri in 2015 in the run up to the launch of his memoirs titled Neither a Hawk or a Dove.

However, in the opinion of the author, the fact of the matter is that if the Four Point Formula, which is something that is bandied about as a concrete outcome of talks in the past, was actually ever acted upon, it would have been a recipe for disaster with respect to India. As for Pakistan, it would merely have been a first in a series of salami tactics that they would have then surely employed in order to sever Kashmir from India. As far as the brave sons and daughters of Jammu and Kashmir who are serving in the Indian security forces and have been targeted in a series of dastardly terrorist attacks of late are concerned, the same would have amounted to nothing less than a shameless sellout. The devil-so to speak-lies in the details!

The Four Point Formula is as follows:

1. Demilitarisation or phased withdrawal of troops
2. There will be no change to the borders. However, people of Jammu & Kashmir will be allowed to move freely across the Line of Control.
3. Self-governance without independence
4. A joint supervision mechanism in Jammu and Kashmir involving India, Pakistan and Kashmir
In the subsequent paragraphs, we shall try and show as to how each and every one of these clauses is a recipe for unqualified disaster and from an Indian point of view, these points could have only been agreed upon by a dispensation that did not have the best interests of the country at heart.

1. Demilitarisation or phased withdrawal of troops: Although this sounds fine in principle, it does not take into account the possibility that in a situation where India scales down its military presence in the Valley, the local administration might be rendered sitting ducks in a situation where militants with the tacit and surreptitious backing of the Pakistani establishment foment trouble. The law enforcement machinery in such a case would be unable to take the action required to bring an expedient situation under control without the assistance of the military and the para military apparatus. Also, it would effectively imply that illegal arms and ammunition would be allowed to flow into Kashmir unabated.

2. Open borders: The second ‘point’ in this Four Point Formula is also as unsustainable and disastrous as the first ‘point’. If there is free movement of people and goods across the LoC then again it would be problematic for India. It is tough for us even now to prevent young Kashmiris from going across the border where they are brainwashed by radical Islamist propaganda. The formula itself does not enjoin any legally binding obligations upon Pakistan to ensure that the aforementioned propaganda is not disseminated in madrassas across the LoC. In this view of the matter, it is difficult to appreciate how this point would be in our interest.

3. Self-governance without independence: Like the other two points, this sounds quite enticing at first blush. However, it would decidedly fall afoul of the principles enshrined under the Basic Structure doctrine of the Indian Constitution. Also, unlike the other two points, the contours of this provision are quite nebulous. It could mean either a reversion to the 1951 position whereby apart from foreign affairs, defence and telecommunications, the writ of the Jammu and Kashmir Assembly reigned supreme over even other matters specified under the Union and Concurrent List of the Seventh Schedule. Equally, it could also mean a new normal which has been described by Mehbooba Mufti of the Peoples Democratic Party as ‘self rule’. Having said all of this, the question that we need to somewhere ask is if it is prudent on our part to allow Islamists, like Akbar Lone (An MLA and a member of the Jammu and Kashmir National Conference) who recently stated on the floor of the assembly that he found the slogan of ‘Pakistan Zindabad’ unpalatable, as he was a ‘Muslim’ first, to take charge of the affairs of Jammu and Kashmir, which in turn have ramifications that transcend the borders of the state itself. Does this not sound suspiciously like allowing the lunatics to take charge of the asylum? We also need to keep in mind that even mainstream politicians of the Kashmir Valley have in the past shown a propensity towards Islamism and thinly veiled majoritarian bigotry. Former governor Jagmohan has quite eloquently described a few of these instances where anti-Hindu bigotry was allowed a free run on the floor of the House in his account of his tenure as the governor of Jammu and Kashmir.

4. The Joint Supervision Mechanism again is constitutionally unsustainable for no other reason but the vastly divergent provisions in the respective constitutions of India and Pakistan. The Constitution of India envisages no such joint governance mechanism with any neighbouring country. It very clearly states that sovereign powers are vested in the people of India who have agreed to abide by the said Constitution. Various entries qua which the state and central government can respectively makes laws have been enumerated in the State List, Union List and the Concurrent List in the Seventh Schedule. There is absolutely no provision for the sharing of these sovereign powers to make laws and to implement the same with Pakistan. If this point were to be implemented, it would require an amendment to the Constitution. Now, the Parliament’s power to amend the Constitution is not at all unbridled and is subject to the judicial discipline of being tested on the touchstone of the doctrine of Basic Structure. It is extremely unlikely, if not impossible for this last point to be implemented as well.

To conclude, it may be fairly stated that ‘talks’ to solve the Kashmir dispute with Pakistan have miserably failed in the past. The crowning achievement of these 70 years of needless discussion with a rogue Islamist neighbour is a constitutionally untenable Four Point Formula that is not only thoroughly inimical to India’s interests but also something that has been rejected by the separatist lobby in the Valley.

To somehow assume that just because talks are taking place, there would be a cessation of violence sounds quite suspiciously like the doctrine of appeasement adopted by the much reviled Right Honourable Neville Chamberlain who was the prime minister of Great Britain around the time Hitler embarked upon his ascent to power. Furthermore, by initiating talks with the Pakistani Establishment, when they are trying to shore up their flagging popularity by hitting us through these terrorist attacks, we would be betraying the memories of the brave Kashmiri men and women, including but not limited to the martyrs of the Sujuwan attack, who have sacrificed their lives for the sake of the founding principles of our country enshrined in our Constitution.

The only manner in which they can be honoured is if we assiduously cultivate and expand the pro-India constituency by directly talking to our people in the Valley. Even if we must have local interlocutors, they need not necessarily be drawn from the ranks of the mainstream parties. There are many common people, verily the silent majority of the Kashmir Valley, especially in the smaller towns and villages who would still be receptive to the idea of India given that many of their compatriots continue to risk their lives for the same. Let us speak to them and until then, talks of ‘dialogue with Pakistan’ ought to be dismissed summarily.

Philip
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Philip » 14 Feb 2018 11:40

We need to build asap several linked fortress towns as did the emperors of yore,where in safe and secure environs,our Kashmiri citizens,especially displaced Pandits,can return to the valley and live in safe,peaceful surroundings. These settlements,with layers of outer defences to prevent suicide attacks,vehicle bombs,etc. screening those entering and exiting with high levels for security. These would resemble army cantonements ,but would contain the civilian admin. offices,the infrastructure for needs of the civilians from ed. institutions to health,recreation,commercial etc. Built within easy reach of each other so that forces could come to the aid of an fort/town under jihadi attack.This would prevent the kind of attack recently seen at military bases.

Supratik
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Supratik » 14 Feb 2018 11:57

Apparently the govt has rejected Pundit township plan. Don't know why? Their Kashmir policy has not been very effective.

arun
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby arun » 14 Feb 2018 12:22

800% agree with the current Nehru-Gandhi family member who heads the dynastic Congress Party, Rahul Gandhi’s, description of the political alliance between the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) and the crypto Mohammadden separatist party, the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP), as “Opportunistic”:

Soldiers paying with blood for ‘opportunistic PDP-BJP alliance’: Rahul Gandhi attacks Centre

Aditya_V
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 14 Feb 2018 13:06

And what NC his ally Ji?

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Shameek » 16 Feb 2018 02:05

Terrorist Attack at CRPF Camp, Pulwama

Days after a gruesome terror attack on Sunjwan Army camp in Jammu and Kashmir that claimed lives of six Army personnel, militants today targeted the CRPF camp in Panzgam Awantipora near Pulwama railway station.
After militants opened fire at the camp, security forces retaliated. Heavy gunbattle is underway and the forces have cordoned off the area.
Sources have confirmed that search operations are currently underway to neutralize militants.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby VKumar » 16 Feb 2018 22:09

arun wrote:800% agree with the current Nehru-Gandhi family member who heads the dynastic Congress Party, Rahul Gandhi’s, description of the political alliance between the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) and the crypto Mohammadden separatist party, the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP), as “Opportunistic”:

Soldiers paying with blood for ‘opportunistic PDP-BJP alliance’: Rahul Gandhi attacks Centre


Ironic coming from a scion of the Nehru family.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby sunnyP » 17 Feb 2018 04:11

It’s depressing that in 2018 it is easier for a Rohingya Muslim to settle in J&K than it is for a Kashmiri Pandit. What a perverted and sick situation.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby brvarsh » 17 Feb 2018 10:25

Because Rohingyas are ready to collaborate with separatists, Pandits of course won't. When this happens it only means we are only championing as a reactive force in the state, we are not aggressive enough to change the situation that facilitates Pandit's return and return safely.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Muns » 17 Feb 2018 14:35

Folks, on that note, we’ve produced two brief interviews of Kashmiri Pandits reliving their memories of the valley to bring attention to their plight again. Trying to highlight here the thirst for blood by the Arabized valley against Pandits on that fateful day of Jan 19 1990. Also trying to highlight how numerous govts have promised resettlement but nothing so far as yet.

Sainik colony is really going nowhere. In any case, please view, Like, Subscribe and Share. I am hopeful that we will be able to bring more videos next month if our Journalist manages to make it to the valley. Take a look at other videos as well.

Also any feedback please let me know to improve things, by using the contact link on the page or message me here.

Thank you again.

Forgotten Promises, Exiled Kashmir Pandits relive their flight from the valley. Part 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=octUCDz3zbY&t=494s

Forgotten Promises, Exiled Kashmir Pandits relive their flight from the valley. Part 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lqJcmc5TCE&t=26s

Channel ;

https://m.youtube.com/c/indiaaware

http://www.india-aware.com

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby brvarsh » 18 Feb 2018 01:25

I don't understand why Pandits live persecuted? If an enemy kills soldiers of one Paltan, its a Paltan that takes the revenge. Its an existential pride. Pandits want to go back and live in Kashmir with honor and with right, they have to take the lead to take it back what belongs to them. The entire nation is behind them our Army is behind them. Kashmiri Pandits have to join the Army different Para military forces and put those under their thumb who dared to throw them out of what rightfully belongs to them.

Karthik S
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Karthik S » 18 Feb 2018 07:09

brvarsh wrote:I don't understand why Pandits live persecuted? If an enemy kills soldiers of one Paltan, its a Paltan that takes the revenge. Its an existential pride. Pandits want to go back and live in Kashmir with honor and with right, they have to take the lead to take it back what belongs to them. The entire nation is behind them our Army is behind them. Kashmiri Pandits have to join the Army different Para military forces and put those under their thumb who dared to throw them out of what rightfully belongs to them.


This sounds rather childish and ludicrous. Army and para are not some gangs you join to take personal revenge. Entire nation is behind them? Just like we were when they were either killed or driven out?


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