J&K News and Discussion - 2016

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Locked
Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6470
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by Supratik »

No, deliberate killing, raping and ethnic cleansing of civilian population is genocide. 100 million people died in WW2. Except what the Nazis and Japanese did that is not genocide but deaths in conflict or war.
IndraD
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9319
Joined: 26 Dec 2008 15:38
Location: भारत का निश्चेत गगन

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by IndraD »

IA has honoured Major Gogoi for tying man to front of jeep and saving lives.
Dipanker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3021
Joined: 14 May 2002 11:31

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by Dipanker »

I hope not an inch is given, figuratively or otherwise.

Will find permanent solution to Kashmir problem: Rajnath
“Kashmir is ours, Kashmiris are ours and Kashmiriyat is also ours,” Union Home Minister Rajnath Singh said on Sunday, asserting that the Modi government will find a “permanent solution” to the Kashmir problem.

The Home Minister’s assertion came amid continued unrest in the Kashmir Valley. Addressing a public reception here, Mr. Singh accused Pakistan of fomenting trouble in Kashmir. “But I want to tell all of you that our government will find a permanent solution to the Kashmir issue,” he said, without elaborating.
Yagnasri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10390
Joined: 29 May 2007 18:03

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by Yagnasri »

IndraD wrote:IA has honoured Major Gogoi for tying man to front of jeep and saving lives.
Timely recognision. It surve two purposes. It sends a message to security forces that GoI has their back and will reward initiative etc which saves lives. It also sends a message to the NGOs and other gangs that GoI does not care for their cryings and shoutings.
Vikas
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6828
Joined: 03 Dec 2005 02:40
Location: Where DST doesn't bother me
Contact:

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by Vikas »

2000000 / (365*26) = ~210

There must be about 210 people being killed everyday to reach the number of 2 mil killed since 1990. Even meeting 1/10th of this number would be hard stretch even if we include everyone killed in terrorist violence.
Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5380
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by Karthik S »

ShankhNaad‏ @ShankhNaad

1.Indian Airforce officer Ghouse Khan arrested for making bombs in Mosque.

2.Muslim policeman flees with rifles to join Hizbul.

Trust ?
Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4226
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by Rudradev »

Karthik S wrote:ShankhNaad‏ @ShankhNaad

1.Indian Airforce officer Ghouse Khan arrested for making bombs in Mosque.

2.Muslim policeman flees with rifles to join Hizbul.

Trust ?
So what is the right course of action, Karthik S ji?

1) Should these guys be apprehended and killed?

2) Or should they be rewarded, by giving to them land that belongs to us?

Which is the path of the coward and the traitor?

Which is the path that caused Hindus to steadily lose land, wealth, influence and freedom over the past 900 years?

Which path does RSangram want all Hindus to take so that he can personally feel safe/secure at the expense of the Indian nation?
Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5380
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by Karthik S »

Rudradev wrote:
Karthik S wrote:ShankhNaad‏ @ShankhNaad

1.Indian Airforce officer Ghouse Khan arrested for making bombs in Mosque.

2.Muslim policeman flees with rifles to join Hizbul.

Trust ?
So what is the right course of action, Karthik S ji?

1) Should these guys be apprehended and killed?

2) Or should they be rewarded, by giving to them land that belongs to us?

Which is the path of the coward and the traitor?

Which is the path that caused Hindus to steadily lose land, wealth, influence and freedom over the past 900 years?

Which path does RSangram want all Hindus to take so that he can personally feel safe/secure at the expense of the Indian nation?
For traitors especially wearing uniform, we know the punishment.
Regarding second part, you tell me, are hindus today different from past hindus of 900 years? Has things changed that history will not repeat itself, wherein we'll loose additional population and area when demographic composition reaches some percentage. What do you suggest we do then.
Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4226
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by Rudradev »

People today lament the "Prithviraj Chauhan" mindset.

They say: look at Prithviraj Chauhan. It is because of his nobility in repeatedly sparing the life of Mohammed Ghori that the subcontinent fell to Islamic rule.

But in fact was more than just "nobility". Prithviraj Chauhan saw a Muslim marauder who kept trying to attack and grab land.

If Prithviraj Chauhan had recognized
1) that land is sacred...
2) that land is a limited resource, of which the gods have blessed the children of jambudvipa bharata with only a limited amount...
3) that securing Hindu territory, every single inch of it, is essential to the well-being of sanatan dharm and the security of its followers...

then he would have known that his rajdharma was not to be merciful towards Ghori.

He would have realized that his sacred duty was to kill Ghori and all his surrendered soldiers, counterattack against Ghauri's kingdom, kill as many Muslims as he could find in that kingdom, destroy all capacity for trade and craftsmanship in that kingdom so that it could never again support or supply a war effort, and sow salt in the soil of that kingdom after burning down all its crops.

Not out of anger, not out of a desire for revenge, but to calmly, permanently, and without attachment eliminate a threat to sanatan dharma's MOST precious non-human resource: land. The sacred geography of jambudvipa bharata.

Prithviraj did not do this. He thought that dharma required him to spare the life of a man who was trying to grab Hindu land. Perhaps his perspective was warped by lack of information. Without knowledge of geography, how could Prithviraj know that land itself is as limited and precious as we know today?

Today we have no excuse. Today we can look at the whole earth from outer space and every square km of land is accounted for: its usefulness, its habitability, its ownership. Today we realize how much land is needed to support a growing and burgeoning population. Today we realize that there is not even an inch of land to waste... even if there were no Muslim threat to sanatan dharma, we could not afford to lose one inch of it.

Only the vilest of cowards, the filthiest of traitors, would propose repeating Prithviraj Chauhan's mistake with eyes wide open to the information we have today.

We know Islam better than Prithviraj did. We know geography better than Prithviraj did.

But the low-lifes among us, like RSangram, suggest destroying ourselves on both counts.

1) They want us to squander the limited gifts of our land, thereby ignoring the geographical reality that our land is a precious resource.
2) They want us to accept the delusional premise that a "second partition" of India could EVER be truly "permanent". They think "guarantees" and "negotiated settlements" will prevent Muslims from encroaching, infiltrating, undermining, terrorizing, bullying, marauding, invading, and in every other way claiming more and more of our land in future. Thereby ignoring the social, political, and historical reality of Islam and its nature.

Accepting the poison that RSangram has been squirting all over this thread requires not only cowardice but ignorance as well.
Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4226
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by Rudradev »

Karthik S wrote:

Regarding second part, you tell me, are hindus today different from past hindus of 900 years? Has things changed that history will not repeat itself, wherein we'll loose additional population and area when demographic composition reaches some percentage. What do you suggest we do then.
Hindus 900 years ago were crippled by lack of information.

They could not open Google Earth and recognize how limited is the overall supply of land on this earth.

They had never encountered Islam before, and could not recognize that human beings are capable of being so adharmic and so endlessly, rapaciously greedy.

So they made mistakes which involved giving away land in the hope of peace with Muslims.

We all know what the result of this turned out to be.

Today, what is RSangram's excuse for proposing the SAME course of action yet again?

What was uninformed behaviour 900 years ago can only be described as cowardice and treason today.
Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5380
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by Karthik S »

RD ji, sounds good, but you haven't answered what do you propose when the "time" comes. You claim you know islam better than PC, so you know given the TFRs and BD infiltrations, that time will come, it's when than if. So what do you suggest we do and when do we do ?
Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4226
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by Rudradev »

Karthik S wrote:RD ji, sounds good, but you haven't answered what do you propose when the "time" comes. You claim you know islam better than PC, so you know given the TFRs and BD infiltrations, that time will come, it's when than if. So what do you suggest we do and when do we do ?
I hope you can see this: "What do we do" is a separate question from "what must we NOT do".

I may not know, as of today, what we should do.

But all of us today (not just me), should know Islam better than Prithviraj Chauhan. We should also know the realities of world geography-- and the limited nature of land as a resource-- better than Prithviraj Chauhan.

So think of it like this.

I do not have a firefighter's skills to rescue people from a burning building. But, I know that we should not keep petrol around the house in open containers, or throw lit matches any which way without looking.

I do not have a cardiac surgeon's skills to perform coronary bypass surgery. But I know that once a person has a heart attack, they should improve the quality of diet and exercise in their lives, and avoid smoking/excessive alcohol consumption, to prevent any more heart attacks.

Similarly, I may not have the answer to the future problem of Islamic demographics in the subcontinent today. But I know that having less of ANY resource... whether energy, water, wealth, capital, labour, or especially LAND, will only make us weaker when confronting that problem in the future.

Today I may not have a strategy in my back pocket to win the next war. But I can definitely point out when a cowardly and ignorant traitor is recommending a course of action which guarantees we will lose the next war.
Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5380
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by Karthik S »

Rudradev wrote:
Karthik S wrote:RD ji, sounds good, but you haven't answered what do you propose when the "time" comes. You claim you know islam better than PC, so you know given the TFRs and BD infiltrations, that time will come, it's when than if. So what do you suggest we do and when do we do ?
I hope you can see this: "What do we do" is a separate question from "what must we NOT do".

I may not know, as of today, what we should do.

But all of us today (not just me), should know Islam better than Prithviraj Chauhan. We should also know the realities of world geography-- and the limited nature of land as a resource-- better than Prithviraj Chauhan.

So think of it like this.

I do not have a firefighter's skills to rescue people from a burning building. But, I know that we should not keep petrol around the house in open containers, or throw lit matches any which way without looking.

I do not have a cardiac surgeon's skills to perform coronary bypass surgery. But I know that once a person has a heart attack, they should improve the quality of diet and exercise in their lives, and avoid smoking/excessive alcohol consumption, to prevent any more heart attacks.

Similarly, I may not have the answer to the future problem of Islamic demographics in the subcontinent today. But I know that having less of ANY resource... whether energy, water, wealth, capital, labour, or especially LAND, will only make us weaker when confronting that problem in the future.

Today I may not have a strategy in my back pocket to win the next war. But I can definitely point out when a cowardly and ignorant traitor is recommending a course of action which guarantees we will lose the next war.
Let's take this analogy of yours, you do realize you already have kept petrol around the house in open containers. You did that the moment our great politicians decided not to go ahead with full population transfer/exchange. Ironically, people who voted for a separate islamic state stayed back in UP, Bihar etc. and the razakars of deccan who massacred hindus are now roaming with a new political party threatening to repeat their history.
abhijatT
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 16
Joined: 23 Oct 2016 16:55

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by abhijatT »

Sirji , please excuse me for intervening between you two and it may well be OT for this thread.

Islam has a strong written and documented history , which every muslim is taught since his childhood. So they tend recall historical precedence for any present event are more so of their prophet and his wars.

So if we may create a condition wherein all best of muslim world lead by their present day 'prophet', against rest of world , fight a war on same day and location (i.e creating historical replica of event as such), but which culminates into defeat of muslim , so that next time if they claim how their prophet conquered so and so, example of how 'modern' world conquered their best can be thrown in their face and thus superiority can be uprooted from their mind.

To create above condition , prophet and his willing partners need to be cultivated. Also, subsequently history need to be amended.

If nothing else above can be psyop to make muslim come out of their superiority mindset of medieval times.

P.s:Guruji's , please don't beat the s8 out of me for naive thought. Thank you.
Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4226
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by Rudradev »

And once again, I would like to remind BRF-ites of something that could be relevant here.

On an international scale, left-wing activists have adopted an aggressive new tactic in the information war: carrying out undercover "sting operation" type attacks targeted against nationalist media outlets, social-media accounts, and online communities where information is analyzed and disseminated from a patriotic perspective.

It seems apparent that Breaking India Forces and AAP/Left/Congress activists have adopted a similar approach, as with the trumped up "theft" charges against Arnab Goswami.

This kind of war is being fought at many levels and on many scales. Online communities like BRF actually present an easy target for attack, because we are self-policing, dependent on the cooperation of all individuals who participate, and generally encourage the free expression of views.

One of the ways in which the attack may occur is to plant a mole within the community of interest. The mole first establishes himself/herself as a "genuinely nationalistic" member of the community, but then begins relentlessly pushing a discussion of certain subjects. The goal is to create a conversation which is ethically and/or legally compromising to the targeted community.

Once the unlawful or illegal subject matter has become a part of general conversation, being dignified by the participation of many people in the online community, then it can no longer be identified strictly with the mole who brought it in. At that point the time is right to spring the trap.

The entire community can get smeared by association with illegal, anti-national topics of conversation and have to face severely detrimental consequences.

In our case, there are both ethical consequences (the question of a supposedly nationalistic forum where "second partition" and secession of Indian territory are openly discussed) and possibly legal consequences to face:
http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries ... ct1967.htm

The Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act, 1967
Act No. of Year: Act No. 37 of 1967


2.
...

(d) "secession of a part of the territory of India from the Union" includes the assertion of any claim to determine whether such part will remain a part of the territory of India ;

...

(f) "unlawful activity", in relation to an individual or association, means any action taken by such individual or association (whether by committing an act or by words, either spoken or written, or by signs or by visible representation or otherwise),-

(i) which is intended, or supports any claim, to bring about, on any ground whatsoever, the cession of a part of the territory of India or the secession of a part of the territory of India from the Union, or which incites any individual or group of individuals to bring about such cession or secession;
...

(ii)which disclaims, questions, disrupts or is intended to disrupt the sovereignty and territorial integrity of India ;

A few things to note in the above:
1) Discussion on the last 3-4 pages of this thread is definitely treading on very shaky ground with the UAPA. Pay close attention to the wording "individual or association". The individual may be the one person who comes up with the idea of giving away Indian territory. The association is ALL of us who discuss it, and the organization (online community) who provides a platform for the discussion. If we all tolerate the individual then we are all collectively guilty.

2) Note "on any ground whatsoever". If a Naxalite, a Northeastern Xtian separatist, or a Hurriyat rat asked for "second partition" or secession of Indian territory, we on BRF would recognize it as wrong. Just because someone claims to be doing it for "Hindu" interests does not make it acceptable under the law.

I want to remind BRF members that there have been times when things got sticky with the law, for the whole forum (and its owner/webmasters) because of either stupid or malicious statements made by some of its members.

Admins should pay close attention here and consider whether they think the views of a certain person fall within the purview of forum debate. For strictly legal, if not ethical reasons.

I think individual members should, for their own good, pay close attention as well. Please choose wisely whether you want to be discussing "second partition of India" with a certain individual or not. There is no scope for excuse-making afterwards when the consequences have already occurred.
Last edited by Rudradev on 22 May 2017 22:53, edited 1 time in total.
Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4226
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by Rudradev »

Karthik S wrote:
Let's take this analogy of yours, you do realize you already have kept petrol around the house in open containers. .
Let's not take an analogy provided to illustrate one thing and dishonestly apply it to another thing. If you want to do that, please don't call the analogy "mine".

Secondly, if you find that people have kept petrol around your house in open containers, the solution is to remove the containers of petrol from your house.

The solution is NOT to voluntarily "give up" the rooms of your house where the petrol is kept, let it remain there, and then delude yourself that fire will not spread to the other rooms because you have a "negotiated settlement"/"guarantee" of no petrol in the other rooms. That would be unbelievably stupid.
Last edited by Rudradev on 22 May 2017 22:52, edited 1 time in total.
KJo
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9926
Joined: 05 Oct 2010 02:54

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by KJo »

Image
Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5380
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by Karthik S »

Rudradev wrote:
Karthik S wrote:
Let's take this analogy of yours, you do realize you already have kept petrol around the house in open containers. .
Let's not take an analogy provided to illustrate one thing and dishonestly apply it to another thing. If you want to do that, please don't call the analogy "mine".

Secondly, if you find that people have kept petrol around your house in open containers, the solution is to remove the containers of petrol from your house.

The solution is NOT to voluntarily "give up" the rooms of your house where the petrol is kept, let it remain there, and then delude yourself that fire will not spread to the other rooms because you have a "negotiated settlement"/"guarantee" of no petrol in the other rooms. That would be unbelievably stupid.
+1
Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5380
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by Karthik S »

KJo wrote:Image
Which is why I am hoping the state will be bifurcated, Kashmir, and J&L. People of jammu who voted BJP in are not being done any justice so far. Fair enough, BJP hoped by entering into alliance, it can do something.
sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6095
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by sanjaykumar »

Not till one sees mass demonstrations against the valley in Ladakh and Jammu.
nirav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2020
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 00:22
Location: Mumbai

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by nirav »

sanjaykumar wrote:Not till one sees mass demonstrations against the valley in Ladakh and Jammu.
Must be encouraged.
Divert financial resources from the K to the J and L.

Let the stone pelters and their sympathisers eat grass and crap kashmiriyat for an extended while.

@Rudradev Saar, thank you for your post !

Giving away bakiland and Bangla land didn't get us peace "once and for all"

No further gidting of territory can create a "once and for all" solution.

With pakis,there's only ONE "once and for all" which involves Massive retaliation.
I hope it never comes to that.
KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4826
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by KLNMurthy »

JE Menon wrote:>>With due respect to various gurus here that this Jihad will end if Kashmir or some part of India is given to Muslims all will be well.

NOTHING should be given to any ideology as trivial as to say there is only one way and you are to be subjects and/or slaves. There is a perfect analogy in our pancatantras I think. For heaven's sake I've completely forgotten about it. It is about this cannibalistic asura who sits outside the village and eats one of its inhabitants every day, the person being voluntarily given by the villagers. His appetite does not cease, rather increases, until he is killed. For sure someone here knows the exact story and the names of the characters. I've forgotten everything else except the storyline completely.
No need to refer to any cannibalistic asuras or other mythical creatures. Indian history post-Muslim invasion is full of rajas who followed the exact formula of giving "10%" of territory to gain "assured peace" and then losing the whole thing, after the Muslim king or his successor had enough time to prepare for further grabs down the line.

In case of the kings it may have been understandable as they were only thinking of their period of reign, their pomp and splendour etc., which were mostly taken for granted anyway as the people were supposed to have raja bhakti. For a democratic and free India which is supposed to last for ever, election cycle after election cycle, it is our obligation as people to defend the country for ever, with the firm belief that we are in the right, the absolutist ideologies are in the wrong, and therefore we will eventually make the latter fade away.

Whatever else we may say about BJP and the Cong system, they have so far (mostly) done a good job of checking the ruling party from giving away anything to Pakistan, even if only for political reasons. Or rather we may say that the democratic political system is such that no party in power can dare to give anything away as it will mean it losing its chance at power. We have at least that much going for us.
morem
BRFite
Posts: 227
Joined: 26 Jul 2009 15:52

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by morem »

KLNMurthy wrote:
JE Menon wrote:>>With due respect to various gurus here that this Jihad will end if Kashmir or some part of India is given to Muslims all will be well.

NOTHING should be given to any ideology as trivial as to say there is only one way and you are to be subjects and/or slaves. There is a perfect analogy in our pancatantras I think. For heaven's sake I've completely forgotten about it. It is about this cannibalistic asura who sits outside the village and eats one of its inhabitants every day, the person being voluntarily given by the villagers. His appetite does not cease, rather increases, until he is killed. For sure someone here knows the exact story and the names of the characters. I've forgotten everything else except the storyline completely.
No need to refer to any cannibalistic asuras or other mythical creatures. Indian history post-Muslim invasion is full of rajas who followed the exact formula of giving "10%" of territory to gain "assured peace" and then losing the whole thing, after the Muslim king or his successor had enough time to prepare for further grabs down the line.

In case of the kings it may have been understandable as they were only thinking of their period of reign, their pomp and splendour etc., which were mostly taken for granted anyway as the people were supposed to have raja bhakti. For a democratic and free India which is supposed to last for ever, election cycle after election cycle, it is our obligation as people to defend the country for ever, with the firm belief that we are in the right, the absolutist ideologies are in the wrong, and therefore we will eventually make the latter fade away.

Whatever else we may say about BJP and the Cong system, they have so far (mostly) done a good job of checking the ruling party from giving away anything to Pakistan, even if only for political reasons. Or rather we may say that the democratic political system is such that no party in power can dare to give anything away as it will mean it losing its chance at power. We have at least that much going for us.
We did come close to UPA trying to give away Siachen though. Not nitpicking but it was a close shave
disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 8243
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by disha »

Major explosion at Ariana Grande Concert in Manchester, UK.

19 people dead and scores injured.

Prima-facie it appears to have links to Bakistanis. "Soocide Bum"!?

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/death ... ng-n763286
SBajwa
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5778
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 21:35
Location: Attari

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by SBajwa »

SBajwa
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5778
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 21:35
Location: Attari

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by SBajwa »

Must Watch!!!

KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4826
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by KLNMurthy »

morem wrote: ...

We did come close to UPA trying to give away Siachen though. Not nitpicking but it was a close shave
That is a good example; sunlight of open discussion and the fear of political retribution pulled us from the brink at that time.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by ramana »

Will soon post an email received on J&K

Localised Ultimate aim is to break Pakis capability to inflict pain in Kashmir. It has multiple phases -
1) Wake up the nation to the real problems in Kashmir - isolate and identify players hiding behind talks/peace as part of the problem.
2) Force Pakistan to activate all assets and resources publicly - We have seen many slime balls in covert form come up openly in support of Paki control in Kashmir
3) Identify the Islamic nature of uprising publicly - Open discussions today
4) Break Hurriyat - Lashkar (Paki rat factory nexus) - this is on going
5) Break the secure support system to camps in POK - done in Surgical Strikes - nearest camps have shifted upto 50 kms back in some cases
6) Break down funding system to Kashmiri separatists - on going. Probably the most complex and difficult ops
7) Gain the upper hand and wrest the initiative from Pak on Kashmir - I think this is now completely secure with Pakis being the reactionary side
8) Weaken public support in Kashmir - Begining phase - intangibes/un measureables - outcome not gauranteed
9) Create unrest in phases in POK
10) Remove / eliminate / neutralise at all costs key separatist terror personalities.- Ongoing.
There are many more sub points. All these are steps which are being acted upon by GOI.

Remember chaabhi index. Jitni chaabhi ghusegi, utna zor se dushman chilaayega.
BTW I created Chabi Index. Level 1 to 4 increasing level of pain.
Pathik
BRFite
Posts: 569
Joined: 16 Aug 2016 05:22

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by Pathik »

Rudradev wrote:
Karthik S wrote:

Regarding second part, you tell me, are hindus today different from past hindus of 900 years? Has things changed that history will not repeat itself, wherein we'll loose additional population and area when demographic composition reaches some percentage. What do you suggest we do then.
They had never encountered Islam before, and could not recognize that human beings are capable of being so adharmic and so endlessly, rapaciously greedy.
They still cannot recognize. Most hindus are happy that modi is elected and it ends at that.
Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4226
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by Rudradev »

Pathik wrote:
Rudradev wrote:
They had never encountered Islam before, and could not recognize that human beings are capable of being so adharmic and so endlessly, rapaciously greedy.
They still cannot recognize. Most hindus are happy that modi is elected and it ends at that.

I disagree. One generation back they were happy that Rajiv Gandhi was elected. Awareness has come a long way from the days of Shah Bano case until now. Today we control the narrative to a greater extent than ever before (look at the enemy having hysterical fits about the threat to their "Idea of India"). Things will change, but lasting change always takes time.
Pathik
BRFite
Posts: 569
Joined: 16 Aug 2016 05:22

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by Pathik »

Rudradev wrote:
Pathik wrote:
They still cannot recognize. Most hindus are happy that modi is elected and it ends at that.

I disagree. One generation back they were happy that Rajiv Gandhi was elected. Awareness has come a long way from the days of Shah Bano case until now. Today we control the narrative to a greater extent than ever before (look at the enemy having hysterical fits about the threat to their "Idea of India"). Things will change, but lasting change always takes time.
Agreed that awareness will continue to evolve with greater collaboration and exchange of information like never before and SM showing the mirror bare faced, however a nationalistic attitude is still being considered fanatic amongst a large number of populations. The secular hang over still exists - look at the people still cheering for anti indic B'wood movies. National pride still takes a back seat. Change is visible but marginally and that too due to a strong leader at the centre. Remove Modi and see how the patriotic fervour falls as quickly as it topped up. The only way I see is grooming a generation from year 1 about the idea of India starting with school text books, until that happens we are still on thin ice. The break india forces are still strong, so the offensive defence has to be all round.
JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7127
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by JE Menon »

>>Awareness has come a long way from the days of Shah Bano case until now. Today we control the narrative to a greater extent than ever before (look at the enemy having hysterical fits about the threat to their "Idea of India"). Things will change, but lasting change always takes time.

+effing 400%

People have so quickly forgotten what it used to be like. Of course, most of the population is under 30 so can't blame them either. But they are coming into an environment which is already shifted a bit to the centre, i.e. closer to centre-right. Will take time, and many years of economic success and well-being, a decade of religious celebrations and pilgrimages going on with increasing fanfare associated with them, marriages happening with ever more grandeur, and small-town dollar millionaires sprouting like weed. Then the shift will be automatic. The Indian middle class woman (between the age of 30-60) will guarantee it.
vasu raya
BRFite
Posts: 1658
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by vasu raya »

Operation called off in Pulwama as militants manage to flee
The overnight counter-insurgency operation in Jammu and Kashmir's Pulwama district was called off today as the militants managed to escape from the security forces' cordon.

The operation was launched yesterday on the basis of a tip-off about the presence of militants, including Lashkar-e- Taiba's Kashmir chief Abu Dujana, in Hakripora area, a police official said.
This night blindness is a recurrent theme and when the quarry is valuable, can they not invite specialist forces equipped for night fighting?
Marten
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2176
Joined: 01 Jan 2010 21:41
Location: Engaging Communists, Uber-Socialists, Maoists, and other pro-poverty groups in fruitful dialog.

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by Marten »

vasu raya wrote:Operation called off in Pulwama as militants manage to flee
The overnight counter-insurgency operation in Jammu and Kashmir's Pulwama district was called off today as the militants managed to escape from the security forces' cordon.

The operation was launched yesterday on the basis of a tip-off about the presence of militants, including Lashkar-e- Taiba's Kashmir chief Abu Dujana, in Hakripora area, a police official said.
This night blindness is a recurrent theme and when the quarry is valuable, can they not invite specialist forces equipped for night fighting?
If the rats scurry back to a safehouse, you have both the rats and the safehouse, with the added bonus of other associates. Not everything should be attributed to some lack.
Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6470
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by Supratik »

Abu Dujana is the nom de guerre of the LET commander in kashmir. Several Abu Dujana's have been liquidated. If this one goes, another will appear.
rsangram
BRFite
Posts: 146
Joined: 20 Sep 2016 17:54

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by rsangram »

Here is an article which everyone should read


Let’s Not Kid Ourselves, India Will Not Win a War Against Pakistan - by Raghu Raman

(Raghu Raman is a distinguished fellow at the Observer Research Foundation (ORF) )

http://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2017/05 ... an/138129/

By the way, Observer Research Foundation, which the author belongs to is from all accounts, a highly respected, objective, dispassionate and fact based think tank in India, consisting of senior retire military officers, justices, IAS officers, scholars, all of whom seem to be non political. And Defence One, where this article is published, is a well regarded and again non political journal on international defense issues.

And now, let us start lobbing verbal missiles at the messenger. Lord knows and as this article confirms, we sure as hell are not in a position to lob the real ones at Pakistan.
CRamS
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6865
Joined: 07 Oct 2006 20:54

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by CRamS »

rsangram, that article is not well researched. It exaggerates TSP capability and diminishes Indian capability. In any case, nobody is advocating war, military is one arm of power. People like him give aid and comfort to the enemy by overlooking TSP crimes. If you push him a tad, guess what? he will advocate p!ss talks with TSP. Point being that a multi faceted strategy is needed for dealing with TSP. You can't have army dying on the borders while p!ssnicks attack govt, collude with TSP, want to play kirket, invite TSPians for Bollywood etc. They must be shunned like plague, diplomatically isolated, and be militarily pounded at LoC and IB
rsangram
BRFite
Posts: 146
Joined: 20 Sep 2016 17:54

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by rsangram »

CRamS wrote:rsangram, that article is not well researched. It exaggerates TSP capability and diminishes Indian capability. In any case, nobody is advocating war, military is one arm of power. People like him give aid and comfort to the enemy by overlooking TSP crimes. If you push him a tad, guess what? he will advocate p!ss talks with TSP. Point being that a multi faceted strategy is needed for dealing with TSP. You can't have army dying on the borders while p!ssnicks attack govt, collude with TSP, want to play kirket, invite TSPians for Bollywood etc. They must be shunned like plague, diplomatically isolated, and be militarily pounded at LoC and IB

Crams,

How do you know that "people like him give aid and comfort to the enemy". By pointing out the truth ? It is not this article in isolation. The entire pattern of behavior by our successive governments, current one included, in being very guarded and "restrained" in their responses to horrendous acts by Paki, would logically tell us, right, that we are unprepared, and that would corroborate this article. One can make a case that successive non-BJP governments were anti-national and did not respond with muscle, because of their anti-national nature. But how do you account for Vajpayee governments' less than satisfactory response ? And even Modi's ? Modi is as nationalist as they come, and I am sure he is seething as much as you and me, when these attacks on us take place. Why is he not responding, then ? Does it not logically follow that it is due to the greatly skewed military balance that we face vis-a-vis our enemy, due to years, nay, decades of deliberate hollowing out by anti-national governments and political dispensations. I am not including Modi in that, obviously, but he is suffering for what he inherited. My only worry is that the system is not permitting Modi to ramp up on a war footing and filling the gaps, as urgently as is required.

So, am I also providing "aid and comfort to the enemy", by my above post ? If so, then all we should do is have 12 and 14 year olds (or with people having the mindset of 12 and 14 year olds) on this forum, indulging in merely adolescent jingoism and boasts, which are "tallel than mountains and deepel than the sea", and not have any serious discussion on this forum.

The article may be not well researched, as you say, I dont know and I cant tell, because I am not very knowledgeable, strictly in war preparedness and relative advantages or lack thereof, but if you have issues with it, you can contradict the facts and opinion stated in that article, without immediately implying that they are somehow "anti-national" in anyway. I would contend that people who are being jingoistic and propagate falsehoods and exaggerations about Indian power, are anti-nationals, because they are preventing the people and the country from knowing the truth, which in turn puts the people of the country in a drugged up complacency and not feeling the urgency of immediate mobilization on war footing to correct any imbalances we may have with our enemies.

The reason I state the above strongly is that I know a bit about this organization, Observe Research Foundation (certain people there have excellent credentials as knowledgeable and nationalistic) and Defense One, where I dont know anyone, but know that they have a reputation of being non partisan and very "technical defense" oriented. So, while that does not automatically mean that they are correct or that they cannot be anti-national, but at least put forward something more than a throw away assertion that they are so.

My objective in being self critical is not to discourage us or to cause "Dhoti Shiver" or to denigrate ourselves, but to raise enough alarm to snap us out of our slumber, collectively as a nation, and mobilize on a war footing to put pressure on our political and bureaucratic dispensations to become a war economy and a war government.

As far as talks are concerned, any 12 year old bully knows, that you only talk from a position of strength. If this guy is right that India is not in a position of strength, there should be no question of any talks. There I agree that only anti-nationals talk about "Talks" and the rabidly anti-nationals talk about talks from a position of weakness. I am not sure that author of the above article is either, but if you have some actual knowledge that he is, by all means, put down some facts - I am open to reading them.
sudeepj
BRFite
Posts: 1976
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 11:25

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by sudeepj »

Raghu Raman's poorly researched OpEd has gems such as these:
Russia, our traditional all-weather friend, has far greater bonhomie with both the US and China than ever before.

The major reason for the Pakistani Op Gibraltar’s failure in 1965 was the overwhelming loyalty of Kashmiri locals towards India.
Long on assertion, short on analysis, it has bought all kinds of propaganda, including some from the Indian side! There is some value in rebutting an incorrectly made argument, in that a correct argument can be put forward, but the only thing that can be said about Raghu Raman's OpEd is that it is not even wrong! Not even worth engaging with and rebutting! If gents with such analytical skills can find currency on Indian think tank circuit, I can think of at least a few on BR who would do a better job. Unfortunately, they are busy doing real jobs and solving real problems.
sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10195
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Post by sum »

^^ His talkson TEDx when he was head of NATGRID related to IA etc were really good.
Wonder what changed with the sudden dhoti-shivering in a short time?
Locked