J&K News and Discussion - 2016

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Vikas
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Vikas » 25 Jun 2018 14:56

Why should Jammu and Ladakh be tagged along the Valley and pay the price for pussyfooting by GoI since 1947.
If breaking up the state of J&K makes Djinnah happy, so be it.
They need freedom from KM yoke as much as Telgus needed freedom from another set of Telgus or Garhwali needed freedom from UPiates.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 25 Jun 2018 22:21

CRamS wrote:One of the most sane and honest debate on Kashmir situation hosted by none other than Sir General G.D.Bakshi. Look how Shabnam Lone obfuscates and rambles around when the General asks her to spell out details on what she means by 'political solution' a phrase that is bandied about by everyone. Sambit Patra was crisp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3GuO-5y42k


It's getting tiresome to keep hearing "Kashmir is a political problem which needs a political solution" Meaning what, give the Hurriyat, JKLF, Hizbul and other separatists/militants full political power to shape the state as they please? Forget it. There have been democracies within the state( until just a few days ago) with freedom of speech, movement and assembly, but not freedom to throw stones, conduct machine gun or grenade attacks, or the freedom to separate. India has done what can be reasonably expected, politically. Now the task is to clean up the terrorists and stone pelters.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Supratik » 25 Jun 2018 22:45

It means since we cannot defeat you militarily but we can terrorize you, so sit across the table and discuss with us how you are going to give us more territory. The we being the Islamists (valley plus Pak) backed by forefathers. Since without the threat of terrorism this cannot be achieved so all parties in the valley, their mentors and forefathers will continue with it. This is a battle of attrition where you have to tire out and defeat the opponent using different means. Military is just one of them.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby chetak » 25 Jun 2018 23:08

Varoon Shekhar wrote:
CRamS wrote:One of the most sane and honest debate on Kashmir situation hosted by none other than Sir General G.D.Bakshi. Look how Shabnam Lone obfuscates and rambles around when the General asks her to spell out details on what she means by 'political solution' a phrase that is bandied about by everyone. Sambit Patra was crisp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3GuO-5y42k


It's getting tiresome to keep hearing "Kashmir is a political problem which needs a political solution" Meaning what, give the Hurriyat, JKLF, Hizbul and other separatists/militants full political power to shape the state as they please? Forget it. There have been democracies within the state( until just a few days ago) with freedom of speech, movement and assembly, but not freedom to throw stones, conduct machine gun or grenade attacks, or the freedom to separate. India has done what can be reasonably expected, politically. Now the task is to clean up the terrorists and stone pelters.


@Varoon Shekhar ji,

Every kid in cashmere knows exactly what she means by 'political solution'. They do not want to shock the mango man in India by clearly spelling it out because then they will lose much support in the rest of India, people who don't know exactly what the jehadis want. Some will know but the rest are too busy with making a living.

Their grand plan is to wear India down and then have some solid RW national personality in India announce it as though it was a solution proposed by India.

Shabnam Lone is a jehadi paki to the core. She makes too comfortable a living in delhi by being a smart supreme court lawyer with loads of free TV publicity on a regular basis and making crores from her cases.

She will be the very last one to shake the boat.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby CRamS » 25 Jun 2018 23:49

Varoon Shekhar wrote: It's getting tiresome to keep hearing "Kashmir is a political problem which needs a political solution" Meaning what, give the Hurriyat, JKLF, Hizbul and other separatists/militants full political power to shape the state as they please? Forget it. There have been democracies within the state( until just a few days ago) with freedom of speech, movement and assembly, but not freedom to throw stones, conduct machine gun or grenade attacks, or the freedom to separate. India has done what can be reasonably expected, politically. Now the task is to clean up the terrorists and stone pelters.


Very crisply stated. But show me one Indian politician, one Indian for that media in media or elite that is, who articulates it like this. And add to that, the need to paint what is going as nothing but Islamic fascim, which nobody will touch with a foot-long pole.

What then do we have? This disgusting spectacle of BJP Vs Congoon bean-counting. And this constant crap about 'political solution'. And the ultimate fraud that BJP is 'communalizing' Kashmir. How f!king laugable is this if not making your blood boil.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ashish raval » 26 Jun 2018 12:27

Supratik wrote:It means since we cannot defeat you militarily but we can terrorize you, so sit across the table and discuss with us how you are going to give us more territory. The we being the Islamists (valley plus Pak) backed by forefathers. Since without the threat of terrorism this cannot be achieved so all parties in the valley, their mentors and forefathers will continue with it. This is a battle of attrition where you have to tire out and defeat the opponent using different means. Military is just one of them.

Bhai let them make noise for 10-15 years till India becomes size of Chinese economy and they will end up being Cuba near USA who can keep making empty noises. Those rats will be gone and those who are willing to throw stones against Army trucks will perish. For India, these guys will end up nothing but mosquitos who keep buzzing but hardly has any terrorizing value. Even pukes know that our growth trajectory means means that it will be near impossible for anyone to side on anti India brigade in a decade and hence all these noises.
We need more youths to go into politics. Oldies has no testos left to face up challenges.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby souravB » 26 Jun 2018 14:28

Supratik wrote:It means since we cannot defeat you militarily but we can terrorize you, so sit across the table and discuss with us how you are going to give us more territory. The we being the Islamists (valley plus Pak) backed by forefathers. Since without the threat of terrorism this cannot be achieved so all parties in the valley, their mentors and forefathers will continue with it. This is a battle of attrition where you have to tire out and defeat the opponent using different means. Military is just one of them.

+1
Adding to your point, we can just keep the status quo maintained and just wait for the financiers(pakis) to go bankrupt. Once the money flow stops, nobody will shout 'azaadi' on an empty stomach. These are jihadis, not freedom fighters.
Meanwhile GoI can catalyse the bankruptcy using various means, water is one, start an arms race with them, buy their sovereign bonds at high interest rates, make essential food items costlier but not too costly (we do sell essentials to pakis), keep fanning the internal power struggle and help the corruptest politicians to win there(NS is a nice bet).

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Supratik » 26 Jun 2018 16:49

Financing comes from the forefathers indirectly. So may take longer than expected. But you can psychologically tire them out.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 26 Jun 2018 18:39

You guys are forgetting military, Industrial capability. One we need as a nation to develop a nationalistic institutional memory which regonises our enemies and punishes them when we have the capability. Pakis are like a scorpion they will sting when they can. We need to have overwhelming majority of weapons to completely outgun them. We also need to fill our system properly, till recently people like Ghulam Nabi Azad, Mani Shankar Aiyar, NAC people, SOz were taking decisions in our country.

Long term till we split Pakistan with Baluchistan and Pashtuns breakign away and recover POK, take care of Jihadi elements int he Valley, peace will not prevail.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby brvarsh » 26 Jun 2018 21:49

One other aspect we forget is we need to have and maintain an assured capability & a framework for our Army to operate that in no way gets dissolved when a weak government takes over. In Democracy for example issues of free subsidy can out form national security issues & all capabilities & reach developed under one government can easily be let go in one day.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ramana » 26 Jun 2018 23:06

Guys so much content free angst in this thread.

Why not post actual news from J&K and discuss this than the usual angst ridden posts?

kuch bhi.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ShauryaT » 27 Jun 2018 08:03

BJP wants to revoke Article 370, ironically Sardar Patel was its architect

Until late 1947, Patel was open to Kashmir’s accession to Pakistan if Pakistanis would tell Nizam of Hyderabad to join India.

The BJP’s decision to pull out of the alliance in Jammu and Kashmir has led to recrimination on all sides. The junior minister for home affairs responded to criticism from the Congress president with a tweet: “Sardar Patel ji solved all other regions. Nehru ji took charge of Kashmir & created more trouble”. Kiren Rijiju was evidently taking his cue from the Prime Minister, who claimed in Parliament earlier this year that “if Sardar Patel had become the prime minister, today a part of our beloved Kashmir would not have been under Pakistani occupation”. Such assertions are of a piece with the larger attempt of the BJP to co-opt Patel and counterpose him with Nehru at every turn. But they scarcely comport with well-established facts of the matter.

Start with the notion that Nehru called the shots on Kashmir, while Patel dealt exclusively with the rest of the states. At the time of Independence, the future of three princely states remained unresolved in terms of their accession to India or Pakistan: Junagadh, Hyderabad and Kashmir. Declassified documents, including records of cabinet and defence committee meetings, make it abundantly clear that both Nehru and Patel were closely involved in handling these three states. To be sure, they had their differences of opinion, approach and style, but these were worked through by extensive consultation.

Take the oft-criticised decision to approach the UN on Pakistan’s aggression in Kashmir. Patel was, in principle, opposed to the idea of referring such issues to the UN. When Mountbatten had suggested this with reference to Junagadh, Patel had demurred: “There was a grave disadvantage in being a plaintiff in such cases. Possession was nine cases of the law”. On that occasion, Nehru had agreed with Patel. Indeed, with both Junagadh and Hyderabad, Nehru was entirely on board to use force when diplomacy failed to deliver. The case of Kashmir, however, was different.

By late December 1947, it was clear to the Indian leadership that the tribal invaders could only be rolled back if the Indian Army struck across the boundary in Punjab and hit their bases. This meant all-out war with Pakistan. Against the backdrop of the horrendous massacres and population movement accompanying Partition, Nehru felt that a war with Pakistan could unleash further waves of communal violence with disastrous consequences.

To avoid this military option, Nehru reluctantly agreed to Mountbatten’s suggestion to refer the matter to the UN. Patel went along with it despite his earlier qualms, as did other cabinet members. Syama Prasad Mookerjee, the founder of Jana Sangh, would later concede in Parliament: “I was a party when the decision was taken to refer the Kashmir issue to the UNO … That is an obvious fact. I have no right and I do not wish to disclose the extraordinary circumstances under which the decision was taken”. Alas, such fidelity to elementary facts hasn’t rubbed off on his successors.

The claim that Patel would have secured all of Kashmir also flies against his own willingness to compromise at various points. Indeed, Patel believed that Hyderabad was of greater interest than Kashmir. Until late 1947, he was open to allowing Kashmir’s accession to Pakistan if the Pakistanis would tell the Nizam of Hyderabad to fall in line and join India. As he told Pakistan’s Prime Minister Liaquat Ali Khan, “Why do you compare Junagadh with Kashmir? Talk of Hyderabad and Kashmir and we could reach an agreement”. Patel even stated this publicly after the occupation of Junagadh on 11 November 1947: “Our reply was that one could agree on Kashmir if they could agree on Hyderabad.” At another meeting with Liaquat on 28 November, Patel offered to pull Indian troops out of Poonch if it would help pave the way for a diplomatic settlement. But Nehru opposed this course.

By the summer of 1948, after the Pakistan Army was fully engaged in Kashmir, Nehru concluded that the conditions for a plebiscite in the state were unlikely to be met and hence the best solution would be to partition the state on the basis of the “existing military situation”. Patel wholly agreed. Partition, he observed, would offer “a permanent, immediate and realistic settlement”. Parts of Poonch and Gilgit could go to Pakistan, while India retained the rest of the state. The Pakistanis were, however, unwilling to countenance the suggestion.

On the internal aspects of the Kashmir issue, too, Nehru and Patel worked closely together despite their differing emphases. Take, for instance, the drafting of Article 370 of the Indian constitution that accorded special status to Jammu and Kashmir. The actual negotiations were carried out over several months between N.G. Ayyangar (cabinet minister without portfolio and former Dewan of Kashmir) and Sheikh Abdullah and his senior colleagues. These were difficult negotiations, but Nehru seldom took a step without Patel’s concurrence.

The opening meetings took place on 15-16 May 1949 at Patel’s residence in Nehru’s presence. When Ayyangar prepared a draft letter from Nehru to Abdullah summarising the broad understanding reached, he sent it to Patel with a note: “Will you kindly let Jawaharlalji know direct as to your approval of it? He will issue the letter to Sheikh Abdullah only after receiving your approval”.

Later, Abdullah insisted that the article should not extend the fundamental rights and directive principles to Jammu and Kashmir but leave it to the state’s constituent assembly to decide whether or not to adopt them. Patel was unhappy but allowed Ayyangar to proceed. At this time, Nehru was abroad. When the Prime Minister returned, Patel wrote to him: “After a great deal of discussion, I could persuade the [Congress] party to accept”. When Abdullah threatened to resign from Constituent Assembly owing a lingering disagreement, Patel asked Nehru to intercede.

Sardar Patel was thus the architect of the Article 370. Historical howlers aside, there is a delicious irony in the BJP’s attempt to claim him for itself while simultaneously seeking to overturn his effort to ensure genuine autonomy for Jammu and Kashmir within the Indian constitution.

Srinath Raghavan is a Senior Fellow at Centre for Policy Research.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Supratik » 27 Jun 2018 14:08

Selective reading of history. Patel was the main force behind J&K accession to India and sending the Indian army. Nehru was fumbling and bumbling and finally made the mistake of taking it to the UN. Now the C-system which The Print represents (Sekhar Gupta) is trying to pass the buck to Patel.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Vikas » 27 Jun 2018 14:15

So even if Sardar Patel was party of the decision on Article 370, How does that make it a good decision ?
Anyways bottom line is that Patel too was a congressman all his life and BJP should have no loyalty towards a wrong decision taken.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Supratik » 27 Jun 2018 14:33

Also Nehru was known to throw tantrums if he didn't get his way. After Bose departure Patel was the tallest leader in the Congress which can be gauged from the fact that he was elected as the PM, overturned by Gandhi and Nehru put in his place and he didn't protest. One can say that Patel was not forceful enough where he could override Nehru.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Vikas » 27 Jun 2018 20:03

Patel was too much a Gandhi follower unlike Subhash babu.
No one knows why MKG had this weakness for JLN...

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby UlanBatori » 29 Jun 2018 17:47

Shauryaji: Since the Constituent Assembly does not exist, doesn't SS have a point?

If 370 were not "special", why would such a strange condition attach? That means that 370 IS special, and so can be abrogated without the conditions for a standard constitutional article.
Under what conditions would a constitutional amendment be approved? It requires 2/3 majority I believe in both houses: a condition which means that there is either a virtual mob in power, or such a horrible crisis of national security (such as a repeat of the 2002 Dilli event which heated the Mantris' musharrafs).
Such a regime could also impose Martial Law without batting an eyelid and suspend all rights and freedoms.
I argue that constitutional protections will be MUCH LESS likely to apply under such conditions, than at present.
OTOH, what would happen if the Pres (upon the reco of the Parliament by simple majority) abrogated the Article as such, but substituted a relatively sane set of temporary protections, such as first-refusal property rights for returning IDPs, preference in jobs for locals, etc?
ANY touch on 370 will trigger the usual hoo-hah, but if explained to the world, the article is so bloody nonsensical that all will laugh. Its like saying that no Americans from outside Louisiana or Alaska can buy land in La or AK. Except that French and Russians can walk in any time and set off IED-mubaraks or drive-by shoot people or torture policemen to death.
So it is a question of vision and grit. Only way to settle "Core Issue of Pakistan Problem". Abrogate it, change the demographics, elect fair govts and bring development for those who work, not for the damn stone-throwers.

The experiment has worked in UP: "Roti kapda aur makaan" did not work so well because Pakis sent in tons of fake currency. But it has been replaced by "development and jobs" which is harder to beat.

BTW I heard that Israelis have given technical advice on how to stop Pak from printing Indian currency: Put on each note:

Kashmir is part of India and Kashmiris are patriotic Indians

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby deejay » 29 Jun 2018 18:19

To Saifuddin Soz and his readers, are you the authorities on whom we can rely on and then trust them enough, to doubt the "Sardar"? I say you need to come clean on your own loyalties or whether this was the first text you read on Kashmir.?

Request, watch this video, or rewatch the video, if you have watched it before:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76YHJ4h10WM


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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Supratik » 30 Jun 2018 00:30

3 terrorists killed in encounter. Identity not declared yet.

www.dnaindia.com/india/report-jk-terror ... ma-2631028

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Supratik » 30 Jun 2018 00:43

70-80 pakis were killed in surgical strikes.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 793589.cms

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby la.khan » 30 Jun 2018 09:59

Supratik wrote:70-80 pakis were killed in surgical strikes.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 793589.cms

When GoI announced surgical strikes in Sep. 2016, I expected approximately 35-40 paki pig tu*ds were halaled. So, as per Hooda sahib, 70+ were sent to their houris :twisted: Good! Looks like the operation went off well 8)

My only gripe with GoI is that these be done more frequently, once or twice every 6 months. Since there are 50+ terrorist camps, we pick & choose 5-6 targets to slaughter these pigs on their home turf. Since pakis do not know which 5-6 camps will be targeted, they have to improve security for all 50+ camps, raising the cost of terrorism to the pakis.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby UlanBatori » 30 Jun 2018 10:42

Legends grow with time. The famous videos posted on Battle of Longewala on You-Tube and Wikipedia now establish that 2800 pakis with 36 tanks and 128 other vehicles surrounded Longewala Baarder Post, and also hit it with artillery starting at 12:30AM. Major Kuldeep Singh and his 119 brave men held them off all night, knocking out 12 tanks. At daybreak the IAF Hunters came in. One got hit and lost half a wing but landed perfectly at the base. Total of 36 tanks and 500 Paki vehicles were destroyed along with most of the 2800 pakis. TWO Indian soldiers died. Their only recoilless gun mounted on a jeep became shaheed after knocking out hajar paki tanks.

The Post looks like it had one sandstone hut and a trench as defenses, surrounded by deep sand and barbed wire. Strangely there are flashes of a set of tomb markers that add up to about 20 but no explanation for that.

I totally believe this version. The pakis clearly got bogged down in the sand, though when the planes came they were agile enough, tracing wild circles and figures of 8. So expect the paki toll in the cross-LOC strike to rise to about 600. Not counting the F-16s :)

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Karthik S » 30 Jun 2018 11:30

la.khan wrote:
Supratik wrote:70-80 pakis were killed in surgical strikes.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 793589.cms

When GoI announced surgical strikes in Sep. 2016, I expected approximately 35-40 paki pig tu*ds were halaled. So, as per Hooda sahib, 70+ were sent to their houris :twisted: Good! Looks like the operation went off well 8)

My only gripe with GoI is that these be done more frequently, once or twice every 6 months. Since there are 50+ terrorist camps, we pick & choose 5-6 targets to slaughter these pigs on their home turf. Since pakis do not know which 5-6 camps will be targeted, they have to improve security for all 50+ camps, raising the cost of terrorism to the pakis.


I'd prefer MKIs with garuthma. That may even make pakis to send their bandars and eagles on suicide mission against MKIs.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby UlanBatori » 30 Jun 2018 13:41

Floods in Jammu Kashmir. Army should consider rewarding arrested stone-pelters by tying the stones they pelt to their feet and sending them for a swim.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby la.khan » 30 Jun 2018 19:20

Karthik S wrote:
la.khan wrote:When GoI announced surgical strikes in Sep. 2016, I expected approximately 35-40 paki pig tu*ds were halaled. So, as per Hooda sahib, 70+ were sent to their houris :twisted: Good! Looks like the operation went off well 8)

My only gripe with GoI is that these be done more frequently, once or twice every 6 months. Since there are 50+ terrorist camps, we pick & choose 5-6 targets to slaughter these pigs on their home turf. Since pakis do not know which 5-6 camps will be targeted, they have to improve security for all 50+ camps, raising the cost of terrorism to the pakis.


I'd prefer MKIs with garuthma. That may even make pakis to send their bandars and eagles on suicide mission against MKIs.

Sure, that's an option. For terrorist camps that are near the border (may be <5 kms), use special forces. For camps farther, use MKIs with stand off weapons, preferably in the same night. Just when the SF boys hit their targets near to the border, let the MKIs release their stores to target camps that are far, without crossing the LoC/border, from within Indian airspace. Hit them from near, hit them from far :twisted:

As an aside, is the Garuthma under production? I thought these are still in the lab.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ShauryaT » 01 Jul 2018 11:26

UlanBatori wrote:Shauryaji: Since the Constituent Assembly does not exist, doesn't SS have a point?

If 370 were not "special", why would such a strange condition attach? That means that 370 IS special, and so can be abrogated without the conditions for a standard constitutional article.
UB: I hold no brief for article 370. My comment was only about what I understand is the correct procedure. Having studied this issue for years, have yet to find a convincing argument for removal of the article either through a presidential order or through a simple act of parliament. Swamy is wrong (and I suspect he knows it) from a legal standpoint as the Constituent Assembly was succeeded by the State Assembly with constituent powers. These constituent powers of the state assembly have been validated by our SC a few times. A unilateral proclamation of a repeal by a Presidential order is not tenable.

IMO, the correct constitutional procedure to repeal article 370 is a constitutional amendment, unfortunately. What can be done through the presidential order route is to further dilute article 370 and maybe even repeal the provisions of article 35A, which did not follow constitutional procedure and was put into the constitution by a presidential order and can thus be removed as such. This type of a repeal will be the first test of political will. Furthermore, I do not hold any sympathy for the view that article 370 is inviolable and without article 370 J&K's accession to the union of India can be questioned. The instrument of accession alone made that union permanent and inviolable, as per procedure set by law.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby VKumar » 02 Jul 2018 01:28

ShauryaT wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:Shauryaji: Since the Constituent Assembly does not exist, doesn't SS have a point?

If 370 were not "special", why would such a strange condition attach? That means that 370 IS special, and so can be abrogated without the conditions for a standard constitutional article.
UB: I hold no brief for article 370. My comment was only about what I understand is the correct procedure. Having studied this issue for years, have yet to find a convincing argument for removal of the article either through a presidential order or through a simple act of parliament. Swamy is wrong (and I suspect he knows it) from a legal standpoint as the Constituent Assembly was succeeded by the State Assembly with constituent powers. These constituent powers of the state assembly have been validated by our SC a few times. A unilateral proclamation of a repeal by a Presidential order is not tenable.

IMO, the correct constitutional procedure to repeal article 370 is a constitutional amendment, unfortunately. What can be done through the presidential order route is to further dilute article 370 and maybe even repeal the provisions of article 35A, which did not follow constitutional procedure and was put into the constitution by a presidential order and can thus be removed as such. This type of a repeal will be the first test of political will. Furthermore, I do not hold any sympathy for the view that article 370 is inviolable and without article 370 J&K's accession to the union of India can be questioned. The instrument of accession alone made that union permanent and inviolable, as per procedure set by law.


And anybody who doesn't agree with our repealing of laws in our sovereign territory can send their bombers, we are waiting. :rotfl:

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Neshant » 02 Jul 2018 09:34

There is nothing complex about getting rid of 370.

60+ years was a generation ago.

370 needs to go as the only thing it promotes is separatism, elitism, exclusion (of other Indians) and is blatantly unfair to other states.

Its time to scrap it.

I'd get rid of it right off the bat if I became PM.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ramana » 02 Jul 2018 23:06

I had mentioned the Mufti, Abdullah family mafias running Kashmir and J&K by default. Others are noting too.

https://twitter.com/UrviMD/status/10138 ... 60770?s=19

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 03 Jul 2018 01:03

^^Did we hear or make any noise when pakistan absorbed GB and PoK for CPEC???

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby VKumar » 03 Jul 2018 02:06

ArjunPandit wrote:^^Did we hear or make any noise when pakistan absorbed GB and PoK for CPEC???


Yes. Just Google for India protests OBOR through Kashmir, or similar.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 03 Jul 2018 07:31

^^thanks I know this already, you'll see the comparison when 370 is removed

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ShauryaT » 03 Jul 2018 08:06

ramana wrote:I had mentioned the Mufti, Abdullah family mafias running Kashmir and J&K by default. Others are noting too.

https://twitter.com/UrviMD/status/10138 ... 60770?s=19
It is called delegating a problem. The Indian system of governance is known for misgovernance across the board so why will J&K be any different? Outside of the issues due to 370, Pakistan, Islamism, etc, the approach has been to provide monies to a set of crooks, who will provide a semblance of authority. This narrative has run its course and will no longer work and indeed never did serve our real interests. Our system for long used similar approaches for the NE until there was a change in approach, to seize the bull by the horns and make the regions' problems count. This is also a two-way street, where the locals reach out to solve their day-day issues. Not all issues can be solved by governance but that is no excuse to misgovern. At the end of the day, the Modi government gave similar monies to a set of crooks in the hope that they will get some semblance of good governance. Their inability to make much headway on at least this score (since the agenda for governance had signed away all strategic goals :( ) was a telling factor and a key reason for the breakdown. I critique the Modi government on many factors but not on their intent to do good, just that in this case they thought they were politically hamstrung to go by the choices and methods of the past. Failure could have been the only outcome.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Vikas » 03 Jul 2018 20:18

Does GoI really wishes to resolve Kashmir issue ?
What have they done since 1948 to sort this issue out ? We are simply fighting a battle of attrition with Pakis and Terrorists and throwing money at whosoever can become CM of J&K.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ramana » 03 Jul 2018 23:24

Vikas wrote:Does GoI really wishes to resolve Kashmir issue ?
What have they done since 1948 to sort this issue out ? We are simply fighting a battle of attrition with Pakis and Terrorists and throwing money at whosoever can become CM of J&K.



Vikas, When is Amarnath Yatra over this year?

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ShauryaT » 04 Jul 2018 07:48

Arun Shourie interview: ‘All parties have lost legitimacy, we are farther from recommencing a political process in J&K than in years before’
I am posting in full as very few non-political minds apply their minds on the issue.
As the Vietnam War demonstrated, one must never go by figures alone: People who are familiar with the ground situation will attest to this.remember those body-counts, those charts that (US Secretary of Defense Robert) McNamara used to display? He had his staff keep an eye on, literally, one hundred variables. By tabulating them and analysing them, he was able to argue again and again that the Americans were winning the Vietnam war. So, one must remember that the spirit and emotions of the people cannot be captured in figures. But as far as mere figures go, the level of violence is lower than it has been in the worst years. Among fatalities, the largest number are of militants; next come personnel of our security forces; and then civilians – and a large proportion of the latter are ones who are killed by shelling from across the border.

And if you were asked to point to developments that you find most disturbing?

Three. First, most of those who are wielding the gun today are not infiltrators from Pakistan but young men of our own. Second, a dangerous cycle has taken hold. Security forces receive intelligence that some terrorists are holed up at a particular place, or in a particular building. When they reach the place and start operations to apprehend or kill the terrorists, civilians gather. They isolate and obstruct vehicles. Some of them pelt stones. With so many civilians in the area, some are bound to get killed in the engagement and cross-firing that follow. The funeral processions of and prayers for those who have got killed become emotional events: two or three in the crowd are so charged that they announce then and there that they are joining the militants. This can become a self-feeding spiral. Third, all political parties and the Hurriyat too have lost legitimacy and, therefore, as one of our foremost national security experts told me, we are farther from recommencing the political process than we have been for years.

Apart from the alienation that they may feel because of recent developments such as these, underlying the Kashmiri demand for azadi and autonomy is the feeling that they have a culture and a long history that are distinct from the rest of India.

Every part of India has a culture that is distinctive, and every part has a very long history. You just have to think of, say, Tamil Nadu or Kerala, or indeed of any one of our Northeastern states.

That must be reduced to specifics. As you know, many persons, and not just Kashmiris, today argue that more powers should be devolved to states, even to smaller units like urban corporations and panchayats. But the case must be built on specifics. One has to show which power that currently resides with the Centre, say, is impeding the growth of the state or the welfare of its people. And how devolving that specific power to the states will improve the lot of the people.

In the case of Kashmir, consider two examples. Crores upon crores would have gone from the Centre for projects in Kashmir. Clearly, the benefits have not reached the people of the state. Assume for a moment that some of the money was siphoned by politicians or personnel connected with the Centre. But surely, a large part would also have been siphoned by persons connected with the state. Does that call for more “autonomy” or for closer scrutiny? For more rigorous work by bodies like the CAG or their removal from the scene altogether?

Similarly, there is no doubt that some of the elections in the state were rigged – and this is a fact that has caused immense resentment among the people; in fact, the possible rigging of a particular election led a middling Jamaat-e-Islami preacher, Mohammed Yusuf Shah, to cross over to Pakistan where he morphed into a Pakistani asset, Syed Salahuddin. To ensure free and fair elections, do we need more or less supervision by the Election Commission? Do we need – and not just Kashmiris but people all over the country – a strong and independent national Election Commission or one in the clutches of whoever dominates a state?

So, the case for greater devolution of powers, in the extreme for “autonomy” must be reduced to specifics: which power should be devolved? Why?

Of course, the youngsters who have taken to the gun are not demanding just “autonomy” but azadi.

That is a chimera. It is not going to materialise. And waiting for it, killing and dying for it is going to lay waste yet another generation. Yet another generation will be even less equipped to face the world it will have to face than the current generation which has already lost decades.

On one thing we should be absolutely clear. Whoever takes to the gun will have to be countered by the gun. And not by deploying “minimum force”. But by employing overwhelming force. K P S Gill used to say, “There is no point running after the terrorist. You have to outrun him.”

By the prescription that one must use “minimal force”, I understand that one must minimise collateral damage: hence, where one can use water cannons and one uses tear gas; or where one can use tear gas and one blinds youngsters with pellets, one is being foolish. That is not a question of using minimum or maximum force. It is using force foolishly.

All right. A gun for a gun. What else?

Of course, the most important thing is to talk – all the time, to everyone. With his vast experience in Kashmir, in his book, “Kashmir, The Vajpayee Years”, A S Dulat makes the most persuasive case that one must go on talking, and go on talking, and go on talking. And “talking” means first of all, and most of all, listening.

You said “to everyone”. Would you include leaders of the Hurriyat in that? Aren’t they pro-Pakistan, aren’t they tightly controlled by Pakistan?

Of course, the Hurriyat was the creation of Pakistan, and they are tightly controlled by Pakistan. We have the word of a former head of the ISI itself on that. In the most absorbing conversations of Dulat and Lt General Asad Durrani, at one point while recounting some of the things that the ISI did right, the General says, “…going back to the evolution of the Kashmir uprising of the 1990s, I think the formation of the Hurriyat to provide a political direction to the resistance was a good idea. Giving up the handle on the movement – letting the factions do what they bloody well wanted to – was not.”

The point being that on Hurriyat being a creation of Pakistan there is no doubt. But it is precisely because some of the leaders have been pro-Pakistan, precisely because some of them have been directly controlled by Pakistan that we must talk to them. They are citizens of India. For what seem to us to be bad reasons, and what seem to them to be good reasons, they have come under the influence of agencies of another country. We have to reach out to them and convince them — both that the mirage they say they are agitating for, azadi or merger with Pakistan, is just that, a mirage; and, second, that together we can build a great future for the people of Kashmir. We have to convince them.

But why is it then that not just the BJP but also the Opposition parties like the Congress are so dead set against talking to the Hurriyat leaders?

I am not sure that they are that averse to talking. They just don’t want to be heard saying that we should talk to Hurriyat, etc. They shudder that they will be accused of being “soft on terrorism”.

And also because they don’t know the slightest thing about even recent history. You remember what a hullabaloo there used to be about the Hurriyat leaders calling on a visiting Pakistani minister or going to the Pakistan High Commission for tea? Who is it who said, “Let us end this nonsense. Let them go and meet whoever they want at the High Commission”? As Dulat records, it was the Congress Prime Minister, Narasimha Rao. As for the BJP, they don’t want to even remember that Advaniji held formal talks with Hurriyat leaders, that Atalji did not just allow them to meet whoever they wanted, he facilitated their going to Pakistan. And they met Musharraf. And do you know what Musharraf told them? To redouble their support of terrorists? The exact opposite: he told them to get ready for taking part in elections! When Geelani tried to intervene, Musharraf cut him off, “Get out of the way, old man,” he said. The Hurriyat leaders were shell-shocked.

We must also remember that, in fact, almost everyone is almost all the time talking to everyone! It is just that often people are afraid of acknowledging this. Dulat – who had served in Kashmir as part of IB, who had been head of RAW, and who at the time was in the Prime Minister’s Office – narrates a delicious incident in his book on Kashmir. On a flight to Srinagar, he found that the Mirwaiz, Maulvi Abbas and he were the only ones in Executive Class. Dulat had extended conversations with each of them. When the plane landed in Srinagar and they were walking towards the Arrivals, “Someone saw us coming in a single file, so they asked the Hurriyat leaders if we had been discussing something. The Mirwaiz said that there was a third person who said hello and spent time talking with Maulvi Abbas, but he himself had no idea of the identity of that third person. When approached, Maulvi Abbas said, yes he had been talking to Dulat, but only because he was introduced by the Mirwaiz!”

Read part II of the interview with Arun Shourie here.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ShauryaT » 04 Jul 2018 07:58

Part II.
Arun Shourie interview: ‘Focus on what can be done now — to improve governance, the life of people’

Delhi needs to play a more proactive role on the ground. And Kashmiris need to shed fanciful goals like azadi and start preparing a blueprint for the future without the baggage of the past, says Arun Shourie.


So, we should talk to the Hurriyat, you say…

I would go farther. The established political parties as well as the Hurriyat leaders have, in fact, lost ground. New leaders must be emerging among, say, the stone-pelters and among those who are actually taking to the gun. We must locate them and do our best to reach out to them also.

Today, they are full of anger. Today they feel they can wrest azadi by the gun. Today, they must be thinking that they just have to take violence to a particular level and Pakistan will rush in and do a Bangladesh. Or that the “Kashmir issue will be internationalised” and the UN or some others will come and complete the job of compelling India.

But soon enough they will see — as many like them saw in the wake of Kargil — that Pakistan’s ability to harm India has its limits. Especially so now as support to cross-border terrorism has already earned Pakistan a bad name. Soon many of them will begin to learn how many times some statement by a British Foreign Minister or a US Congressman, some report of a UN body had convinced persons like them that their cause had been taken up by the world and azadi was round the corner.

In a word, we must not give up on them. We should talk to everyone, and not make much fuss about talking or not talking. And at all times we must keep in mind the other person’s compulsions.

Compulsions?

Oh yes, compulsions. Not only would many of them have been proclaiming their undying commitment to azadi, etc., and, therefore, would hesitate to reverse course, there is Pakistan. Anyone who has once been in their grip, and has shown the slightest disillusionment — that Pakistan is only interested in using Kashmiris and the Kashmir issue for its own purposes — or the slightest inclination to explore alternatives with India has been just plain and simple killed: Mirwaiz Maulvi Farooq, Majid Dar, Abdul Ghani Lone, Qazi Nissar Ahmed, Dr Guru — as (A S) Dulat says, “the list goes on and on”. So, when you talk to them, and they need protection, you must ensure they have better protection than the best that you can provide.


Among the “everyone” would you include Pakistan?

We can talk to Pakistan too, and not make much of talking or not talking —”DGMOs speak to each other”, newspaper headlines proclaim every time cross-border shelling intensifies, as if, now that the two have talked, the shelling will cease; and the shelling resumes the very next day. What could the Pakistani General have said? “No, I am going to continue shelling your people?” So, don’t read too much into either talks or the fact that talks are not taking place in the open at the moment. In any case, we must keep one thing in mind: we should not expect that Pakistan will help solve our problems. That will not happen till the unforeseeable future when the nature of the Pakistani State changes, not until Pakistan develops an identity other than “We are not India”.

I would expect much more from contacts among professionals — judges, artists, musicians, teachers, IT and engineering professionals, entrepreneurs. People on both sides will realise that people on the other side are not monsters. Equally important, when visiting Bengaluru, Hyderabad, Pune and other cities, Pakistanis touring India will see the alternate future to which they too can aspire.

If it is not the fact that Kashmir has a separate culture, if it is not the fact that it has a separate history, what in your view is the root cause for the state to which we have reached?

There are, of course, many roots. But I think there is basic cause — and you see this not just in Kashmir, you see it in every state of the Northeast also, other than Sikkim. And that is the way that we have chosen to administer these areas. You see, in effect, Delhi has sub-contracted governance of the state to someone or the other; and has told him, “We will keep sending you the money, and you keep the semblance of a government going. For the rest, you do what you like.” The result has been that the people have not got the services which are their right. And as a consequence of that, not only have the people continued to suffer, the sub-contractor has lost legitimacy and then not been able to keep even that semblance of a government going. We have then switched to another sub-contractor — only to repeat the whole cycle. It is this sub-contracting model of dealing with these states that has run its course.

Do you seen any improvement in the immediate future?

Quite the contrary. First, today there is no policy in regard to Kashmir — as there is no policy in regard to Pakistan, to China, to Nepal, to Sri Lanka, to Maldives. Or to banks! At least in this regard, the Kashmiris should not feel that they are being singled out!

What we have are either inspirations — revelations, ilhaam — or actions that are entirely event-driven. And that means that what you will do is entirely in the hands of the other person. You announce a ceasefire. The other fellow kills a few. You call off the ceasefire.

Second, today everything is entirely election-driven. And this is a one-trick horse: all it knows is how to foment Hindu-Muslim tensions. And like Trump, the strategy for the elections here is not to convert the people at large. It is to glue their core constituency to themselves more firmly. This has murderous consequences for the country, of course — for instance, as the Kathua rape and the lynchings show, it is already setting the new normal for bestiality. But it has even more dangerous consequences for Kashmir. First, the polarisation between Jammu and Kashmir has intensified no end. Second, as the national security expert explained to me, the polarisation is being fomented in districts that have had a mixed population: in these now “ethnic cleansing” is gathering pace. Both these features make things easier for Pakistan. Most important, this aggressive Hindu-card pushes the Kashmiri to view himself not as a Kashmiri but as a Muslim, and a particular type of Muslim at that. It also leads him to conclude that Muslims in India will have to live on sufferance, and that too as second-class residents.

All this flows from the very nature of the regime, and that is not going to change.

Caught between the militants and the forces, what should the ordinary Kashmiris do?

First, shed fanciful goals like azadi — those are not going to be attained, and, striving for them, even the good that is realisable will be lost.

Second, cast aside these notions of martyrdom. Once Rajmohan Gandhi gave the best counsel: a cause worth dying for is also a cause worth living for.

Third, prepare a blueprint for the future, of what you want without a single word of history — without a word about 1948, Constituent Assembly, Sheikh Sahib’s speech in the Kashmir Constituent Assembly, the Agreement of 1952, Sheikh Sahib’s incarceration, and so on. The past is very heavy baggage: by the time you get through it, the mind has exhausted itself. Moreover, to each fact in that past — the way Article 370 was included in the Constitution, for instance — there are other aspects than the ones that you have internalised. So, one gets bogged down in those controversies and stops thinking about the future. Leave those controversies to persons like us who spend their time writing books.

Fourth, when you recall Narasimha Rao’s “the sky is the limit”, when you invoke Atalji’s “insaniyat, jamhooriyat, Kashmiriyat”, reduce them to specifics.

Fifth, focus on what can be done here and now — to improve governance, to improve the life of the people. For instance, in his new book, Saifuddin Soz urges that insurance be instituted for people living within five kilometres of the border-they are losing their lives and paltry possessions for no fault of their own. Precisely the kind of proposal that should be thought up and one that we should strive to see implemented.

Sixth, please see that the factors that are raining hardship on you are the very ones that are oppressing people in the rest of the country. When you keep insisting that your problems are special, sui generis, people in the rest of the country do not join hands with you to alleviate them. And you fail to lend your weight to solving the basic reasons on account of which problems — yours as much as those of others — are being inflicted on everyone. It will be therapeutic for you as much as it will be useful for us were you, for instance, to travel through the Western Ghats and tell us how the natural beauty of that region should be preserved. You have the knowledge that the rest of us need.

Finally, stop playing the victim. Stop blaming the other. I have seen how doing so set the people, especially the youth of Assam, back a generation and more. Stop expecting the other to do things: do yourself what you are asking someone else to do. A good example occurs in the same book of Soz that I just mentioned. He says that the Government of India should help institute an “internal dialogue” among people of different regions-Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh. But that is precisely the sort of thing that Kashmiris can be doing, should be doing themselves.

In one of his poems, the Pakistani poet, Ahmed Faraz put it well:

Shikwa-e-zulmat-e-shab se to behtar tha

Apne hisse ki koi shama jalate jaate

(How much better it would have been if, instead of going on cursing the dark of the evening, we had lit the candle that was within our hands to light…)

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby CRamS » 04 Jul 2018 08:10

ShaurayaJi, I actualy watched that interview in totality. You actually find that sore loser and foul-mouthed compulsive ModiJi hater insightful? Turdesaisi was feeding him softies and he was hitting them for a six. My observations:

1. He is bloody lying through his teeth and spinning his way out when caught with his pants down. He did mock the surgical strikes and then when video came out, he was saying he mocked ModiJi taking credit. Even ISI could not have done better on this one.

2. His recipes for Kashmir are total rubbish and skirts the main issue. I have to tell you, from being a Hindu nationalist, this guy for whatever reason has turned a WKK. I mean he does not want to call stone pelters as bloody traitors they are. He goes on to say "we must embrace" KMs and tell them their struggle is like citizens of any other state. India has not tried that? How many elections were held? He skirts the fundamental issue that KMs want secession from India based solely on the Islamic ideology and are colluding with Pakis in breaking India. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see this after some many decades of turmoil there.And to blame Hinduthva and rise of BJP for turmoil in Kashmir is Burka Bibi type low IQ sophistry.

3. I puked my gut out when he said India should look for leaders like Jignesh Mevani, Kanhia Kumar etc in the valley with whom to engage.

4. And last, but not the least, him quoting a bloody Pakis, the same b@stards who tormented his country to seek solace was too much for me.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ShauryaT » 04 Jul 2018 09:14

@CRamS: Let us discuss, when you learn to read things without the color of the paper one writes on or the color of the garment one wears, hopefully with calmer language and rigor in the debate.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Katare » 04 Jul 2018 09:35

Supratik wrote:Selective reading of history. Patel was the main force behind J&K accession to India and sending the Indian army. Nehru was fumbling and bumbling and finally made the mistake of taking it to the UN. Now the C-system which The Print represents (Sekhar Gupta) is trying to pass the buck to Patel.


That is totally false! Patel was home minister, he had no powers to send any army. Patel played a very limited role in Kashmir’s accession to India. We have a muslim majority state joining India after most horrific riots and killings, how is it possible? Only because of the master stroke (Seikh Andulla) by Nehru that we have most of the Kashmir. Maharaja’s signature would be worth same as Nawabs of Junagadh and Hyderabad’s signatures.

Most stories about Nehru are total work of fiction.


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