J&K News and Discussion - 2016

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Karthik S
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Karthik S » 04 Jul 2018 09:48

Katare wrote:
Supratik wrote:Selective reading of history. Patel was the main force behind J&K accession to India and sending the Indian army. Nehru was fumbling and bumbling and finally made the mistake of taking it to the UN. Now the C-system which The Print represents (Sekhar Gupta) is trying to pass the buck to Patel.


That is totally false! Patel was home minister, he had no powers to send any army. Patel played a very limited role in Kashmir’s accession to India. We have a muslim majority state joining India after most horrific riots and killings, how is it possible? Only because of the master stroke (Seikh Andulla) by Nehru that we have most of the Kashmir. Maharaja’s signature would be worth same as Nawabs of Junagadh and Hyderabad’s signatures.

Most stories about Nehru are total work of fiction.


Are you joking or are you dynasty supporter? So who sent army to Hyderabad to fight the nizam and razakars?

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Katare » 04 Jul 2018 09:57

Only PM has authority to do it after taking his Cabinet in confidence.

Lets not discuss Katare or Karthik but the issues and facts.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Karthik S » 04 Jul 2018 10:34

Oh yeah, everyone knows JN screwed up by going to UN right when we were on the verge of taking back the territory. Don't spread false info.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Vikas » 04 Jul 2018 11:14

ramana wrote:
Vikas wrote:Does GoI really wishes to resolve Kashmir issue ?
What have they done since 1948 to sort this issue out ? We are simply fighting a battle of attrition with Pakis and Terrorists and throwing money at whosoever can become CM of J&K.



Vikas, When is Amarnath Yatra over this year?


R Sir, Yatra gets over by 26th August. Sorry but could not understand the corelation ?

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ShauryaT » 04 Jul 2018 12:03

Karthik S wrote:Oh yeah, everyone knows JN screwed up by going to UN right when we were on the verge of taking back the territory. Don't spread false info.
Do you have any credible references for the highlighted part? Not claiming JLN did not screw up but you have to have the correct reasons thereof.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby dinesha » 04 Jul 2018 13:13


Karthik S
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Karthik S » 04 Jul 2018 13:58

ShauryaT wrote:
Karthik S wrote:Oh yeah, everyone knows JN screwed up by going to UN right when we were on the verge of taking back the territory. Don't spread false info.
Do you have any credible references for the highlighted part? Not claiming JLN did not screw up but you have to have the correct reasons thereof.


Look up Maj Gen GD Bakshi's video regarding the same. Can't do it for you now. Although other army personalities have said same, I consider Maj Gen lot more reliable.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby CRamS » 04 Jul 2018 21:28

ShauryaT wrote:@CRamS: Let us discuss, when you learn to read things without the color of the paper one writes on or the color of the garment one wears, hopefully with calmer language and rigor in the debate.


My friend, talking about 'calmer language' and 'rigor in debate', do you that low life Arun Shourie has either when he goes day in and day out and joins ModiJi's enemies and pours bile and scorn? And what is his hackneyed crap about Kashmir? When Turdeasi announced Shourie is going to talk about how best to bring normalcy to Kashmir, I thought lets see what he has to say. Instead all I got was WKK garbage, skirting the issue, giving clean chit to stone pelters, quoting some f!king Paki poet and low IQ crap like that.

There is no magic bullet to solve Kashmir except to re-iterate that Paki military/ISI need to be humiliated 1971 style, or somehow KMs become normal Indian citizens. Till then the debate should be how best to manage the situation. And Indian army is key. Even if an offensive strategy to punish TSPA is difficult, I am pretty sure with better planning, better intelligence, and yes, with 'political engagement' with locals that everybody talks about, Indian army should thwart Paki attempt to score spectacular terrorist attacks in the valley.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby chetak » 04 Jul 2018 21:44

CRamS wrote:
ShauryaT wrote:@CRamS: Let us discuss, when you learn to read things without the color of the paper one writes on or the color of the garment one wears, hopefully with calmer language and rigor in the debate.


My friend, talking about 'calmer language' and 'rigor in debate', do you that low life Arun Shourie has either when he goes day in and day out and joins ModiJi's enemies and pours bile and scorn? And what is his hackneyed crap about Kashmir? When Turdeasi announced Shourie is going to talk about how best to bring normalcy to Kashmir, I thought lets see what he has to say. Instead all I got was WKK garbage, skirting the issue, giving clean chit to stone pelters, quoting some f!king Paki poet and low IQ crap like that.

There is no magic bullet to solve Kashmir except to re-iterate that Paki military/ISI need to be humiliated 1971 style, or somehow KMs become normal Indian citizens. Till then the debate should be how best to manage the situation. And Indian army is key. Even if an offensive strategy to punish TSPA is difficult, I am pretty sure with better planning, better intelligence, and yes, with 'political engagement' with locals that everybody talks about, Indian army should thwart Paki attempt to score spectacular terrorist attacks in the valley.


I personally think that he was hoping to become a minister to get the medical help that some family member of his needs. Otherwise so much of bile from a guy who ought to know much better and especially one like him who has recognized and realized the dangers posed by ropers and rolers as well as their breaking India games.

He seems to have a house in the lavasa project built by the hiranandanis and those don't come cheap, unless he has been thrown a freebie due to his exalted public "eminence" status.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby CRamS » 05 Jul 2018 01:39

Chetak, we all know ModiJi. Of course, I am biased. But I can bet my last penny that he will be the last Indian to ride on the co-tails of Indian army sacrifices for political gain. But politics is a blood sport. He also has the conviction that he and BJP need to stay in power to remove crap like article 370 etc.

So when the surgical strikes took place, all the thugbandhan chutiyas including that low life Shourie were mocking the strikes, mocking ModiJi. I can only imagine who much Paki army and ISI were laughing their arses off even as they were seething with anger that they were hit.

And in politics perception matters to the aam admi. When these pukes like Shouries kept attacking ModiJi, ModiJi had to do something. And hence the video release. So it was the thugbandhan who made the thing politicsl out of sheer jealousy and deny ModiJi any political advantage which he is entitles for taking the risk and asking the army to cross LoC which has been a Lakshman Rekha (in a sober way, one can debate who effective that one strike was).

I wonder people like Shourie etc who garner respect cannot write articles in international media on the truth about Kashmir. How contrary to this 'human rights' BS, India is waging a real battle for democracy and civility in the face of Islamic extremism. And excesses are bound to be committed in such circumstance. Of course, I am dreaming, if wishes were horses, beggars would fly. Indian politics is so vile that these slime balls like Shourie would actually milk ModiJi's predicament in Kashmir than be supportive.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Katare » 05 Jul 2018 02:13

Karthik S wrote:Oh yeah, everyone knows JN screwed up by going to UN right when we were on the verge of taking back the territory. Don't spread false info.


Why don’t you focus on talking about what you know, everyone else can speak for themselves.

Your info is completely incorrect baazar gossip, indian army was bogged down with winter approaching fast and tribals hammering it from multiple sides. This was the way out chosen by the Indian government. You should know the cabinet approval is needed for approaching the UN. So these fake stories about Nehu rushing to UN and Patel being wiser than pope are just that- stories created for political purposes.

Now wheather going to UN or agreeing to UN meditation, was a good or bad decision is a matter of debate and one can genuinely criticize it or see the logic in it.

Also Patel was more pragmatic and connected to the roots of the land than panditji is a universally accepted facts. Even Nehru himself realized this and sought Patel’s council and guidance on all serious matters.

I personally went through official communication of Nehru with all the key actors through that periods to come to my own conclusions. There is enough original material available on the net for free for anyone to go and do there own research and make one’s own mind.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Katare » 05 Jul 2018 02:19

Karthik S wrote:
ShauryaT wrote:Do you have any credible references for the highlighted part? Not claiming JLN did not screw up but you have to have the correct reasons thereof.


Look up Maj Gen GD Bakshi's video regarding the same. Can't do it for you now. Although other army personalities have said same, I consider Maj Gen lot more reliable.


Well would like to see your source if you would. Thesre are hundreds of videos by gen Bakshi on youtube so not possible to locate whichone you saw.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ramana » 05 Jul 2018 02:57

Vikas, Thanks. Can't have change in Govt till then. Will revert to terrorist attacks on Yatra.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Kashi » 05 Jul 2018 05:51

Katare wrote:
Karthik S wrote:Oh yeah, everyone knows JN screwed up by going to UN right when we were on the verge of taking back the territory. Don't spread false info.


Why don’t you focus on talking about what you know, everyone else can speak for themselves.

Your info is completely incorrect baazar gossip, indian army was bogged down with winter approaching fast and tribals hammering it from multiple sides.


If you are accusing someone of speaking "incorrect baazar gossip", the least you can do is cite some valid, reliable references for your claim on "tribals hammering it from multiple sides."

Katare wrote:I personally went through official communication of Nehru with all the key actors through that periods to come to my own conclusions. There is enough original material available on the net for free for anyone to go and do there own research and make one’s own mind.


Well claiming is not good enough, you should at least cite the relevant sections that helped you draw your conclusions and while you are at it could you please also cite official communications from others such as Gen. Thimaiyya and others and what were their views? Surely, JLN's official
communications were not the only documents in this matter.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby brvarsh » 05 Jul 2018 06:56

I think this conversation goes no where. The simple narrative that JN made a mistake of going to UN weakens our position today and that too for no reason. If an organization was created to "solve" problems between two nations it was obvious for a newly created nation to knock its door to avoid a looming war. Its another matter that organization turned out as a playground for big five to enforce their interests. Point is today that resolution holds no water, nothing nada zilch. The more we talk about it the more credentials we give to that. As was suggested by the forum moderator earlier, lets stick to news from J&K, how the Governor's rule has made changes on the ground. In the context of 1947 many leaders today would appear very foolish as well. The only narrative we have today is we did not make mistakes then and we won't make any mistakes today.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 05 Jul 2018 14:15

Rather good article from Lt. Gen. Syed Ata Hasnain from SwarajyaMag. Reproducing here in toto, will follow up with my comments and hypothesis in later post.

Snapshot
Rawat’s Robust Response: How The Chief Is Leading The Army’s Campaign In Jammu And Kashmir

  1. A lasting solution to the conflict in Jammu and Kashmir has to come from the political community and the administrative machinery.

  2. Before any of that, though, it falls on the army to create a stable security situation.

This must start on a personal note because the current Indian Army Chief, General Bipin Rawat, is a former colleague and subordinate. He relieved me in the Military Secretary’s branch as the Colonel in charge of policy and management of the officer cadre. While I commanded Indian Army’s Dagger Division in Baramula, he commanded the Rashtriya Rifles 5 Sector (brigade) in the nearby volatile town of Sopore. Later, as I commanded the Chinar Corps, I also had the opportunity of asking for him by name, to command the Dagger Division, my old formation. He later dealt with the North East as a senior staff officer and commanded Indian Army’s largest formation, 3 Corps, which oversees a major part of anti-insurgency operations and the Line of Actual Control.

On 1 January 2017, when General Rawat was appointed Chief of the Indian Army, he brought to his appointment a wealth of experience of having dealt with hybrid conflict conditions in Jammu and Kashmir (J&K) and the North East. He inherited a situation in J&K which was tenuous. Six months post the killing of Hizbul Mujahideen commander Burhan Wani which had triggered unending turbulence on the streets; the army faced three major challenges. First, the Line of Control (LoC) was getting much more active with nearly everyday ceasefire violations by the Pakistan Army. The Hindu areas in the vicinity of the Jammu international boundary were under intense fire, which created communal tension with potential for more negative fallout; that was Pakistan’s intent.

The infiltration of foreign terrorists, although under a fair degree of control, had witnessed attempts at targeting the army’s installations closer to the LoC. This was against the usual trends of deeper movement to safe houses and strikes in the hinterland. The suicide attack on the headquarters of the Uri Brigade on 18 September 2016 was part of this trend. Earlier, the army posts in the Jhelum Valley had also been subjected to such attempts and the brigade headquarters at Poonch and Tangdhar had successfully neutralised terrorist efforts to target them. Related to the LoC was also the fact that on 28 September 2016, the much-hyped surgical strikes had been launched against terrorist launchpads across the border. Although casualties inflicted were unconfirmed, the campaign itself became a celebrated event in India, leading to the expectation of such retribution in future too.

The second challenge was the continuing trend of terrorist strikes in the hinterland. From the high of 2011-12, when the army had established complete domination by effectively choking infiltration, the low was the proliferating local militancy, which required no foreign terrorists, to flourish. South Kashmir found its own moorings through the movement led by Burhan Wani, who succeeded in inspiring a segment of the youth through his image management on social media and networks spread by word of mouth. The surge in violence in 2016 was primarily in the southern districts of Anantnag, Pulwama, Kulgam and Shopian, sometimes moving up to Bandipora. The disturbing trend of flash mobs at encounter sites interfering in operations conducted by the security forces (SF) was leading to severe challenges for the SF, resulting in both SF and civilian casualties. The civilian casualties always triggered further disturbances and the potential of a cyclic chain of negative events always remained high.

The third challenge was a flow out of the second and not restricted to any single aspect. The political environment was vitiated and the local political class was being shunned. It did not have the ability of even visiting the rural areas to which the movement had shifted. The alienation against India and everything Indian was massive and no military civic action programmes such as ‘Sadbhavana’ could hope to overcome this. The new generation of Kashmiris, born after 1989, had only witnessed violence in everyday life and knew little about the happiness of a stress-free environment. It had produced a brooding and vengeful youth veering towards suicidal tendencies.

All the challenges which stood evident in early 2017 continued at different levels through the 18 months that General Rawat has been in office, underlining the fact that hybrid conflicts are long-drawn affairs. However, simultaneously, they were addressed with a new understanding of the ground.

General Rawat’s term as Army Chief, mid-way through his tenure, has been characterised by a robust response at the LoC without any horizontal proliferation. There was a choice to proliferate response to the LoC of the Kashmir sector and even to Kargil. This advice has been eschewed in favour of a stronger response in the areas where Pakistan attempted to escalate, with greater flexibility vested in frontline commanders. This was sane because LoC exchanges in the Kashmir Valley segment helps Pakistan divert the attention of our troops from the counter infiltration grid. The Neelam Valley domination that the Indian Army enjoys is a measure of last resort and must never be encashed too early. The subsidiary prong of this strategy has been the continuously strengthening counter infiltration grid. More prioritisation to sub-sectors and induction of additional units from the Pir Panjal South has afforded this.

It was done with an element of risk incurred both in the Jammu and Valley regions. In the Jammu region, militancy and terror have been largely wiped out, but the potential for resurgence always exists. Moving Rashtriya Rifles units from the grid there did weaken it to an extent. Communal violence and other political factors in Pir Panjal South can always contribute towards destabilisation and possible exploitation by Pakistan. Disturbing an existing but stabilising grid is never a good strategy, but the risk has been worth it because it energised the counter infiltration measures along the LoC in the Kashmir segment.

General Rawat’s knowledge of the ground in the Uri and Lipa sectors did ensure the practical deployment of additional troops. There have been strikes by border action teams of the Pakistan Army, but the demand for crossing the LoC has been silenced through effective neutralisation from our side, except in one case in the Poonch sector late in December 2017, when our troops had to do a shallow trans LoC operation.

Before venturing into reinvigorating the counter-terror operations, General Rawat drew the ire of a part of Indian intelligentsia by using some strong language against those who attempted to come in the way of the army’s operations at encounter sites. He termed them virtually as over-ground workers (OGWs) and promised action against them as anti-national elements, just the way other OGWs are dealt with. It was a strong message to the troops that they need not feel cowed down by the attempts to cause hindrance to their operations.

Operation ‘All Out’ was the generic name given for all counter-terror operations as the SF prepared for the 2017 summer campaign season. While cooperation between the SF constituents has always been good, the need for further refinement of cooperation was a necessity due to the changing nature of conflict. The necessity of being on the same page was never felt more as vigilante flash mobs attempted to intervene and prevent the effectiveness of execution of operations. A couple of decisions added weight to the effectiveness. First among them was on reintroduction of cordon and search operations (CASO). Generic CASO is executed when intelligence is not specific but exists in bits and pieces. It involves a larger number of troops and creates alienation among the populace, which has to suffer the ignominy of search of houses over a longer duration. This was the challenge in South Kashmir and the return to CASO ensured better domination, and in some cases, actual contact with terrorists. CASO was progressively reduced through later months of 2017 as greater domination was achieved.

Operation ‘All Out’ remained dynamic in concept as it switched to focus on terrorist leaders, who through social media were attempting to create personality cults and larger-than-life images of themselves. This strategy, which the army adopted to curb terrorist initiatives and break their command, control and planning, again proved invaluable as close to 20 militants were eliminated. The infamous photograph of the team of young terrorists with Burhan Wani saw all the members on display being neutralised. Hard operations convey the right message that life as a terrorist may not exceed more than three months.

It is in the third domain, the socio political one that the SF initiatives have yet to bear fruit to the degree desired. This is work in progress. It needs to be appreciated that soft power initiatives to take effect require the rebuilding of trust and creation of hope through restoration of the dignity and self-esteem of the people, and 2018 is the right year for that. To its credit, the army continued with almost all its soft power measures, but the ability to dilute alienation could enhance only marginally because of powerful narratives, which the separatists had been able to ingrain once again in the minds. General Rawat made it clear in a recent media interaction that the contribution, which infiltration made towards sustenance of levels of violence, has been curbed and controlled.

However, the terrorist strength today is being maintained through the phenomenon of local recruitment of youth driven by the passion generated on the streets and funerals of young terrorists, who were many cases their friends. This means that a virtually interminable chain of induction and availability of local terrorists will make the attainment of peace a non-starter. For this, the assistance of the political community, clergy and academics, and of parents, is a must. They have to be empowered to speak, travel and address through multiple means of communication. The army is never afraid to extend a helping hand well beyond its responsibilities as the attainment of peace remains its ultimate aim. If by its own presence or redeployment, it can assist in this effort, it will ensure that, and even provide necessary feedback for the efforts. The political community has to be urged to engage with the people but shorn of political rhetoric. This assurance has been given time and again by the Chief.

The political and social outreach is enabled by the domination achieved in the security situation. The continuity of that domination is as essential, because such strategies cannot work in fits and starts or remain driven by personalities. They have to be institutionalised. The army under its current Chief understands this better than almost all, and has, therefore, worked towards putting together its best practices for continuity. A major achievement in the internal dynamics of the army has been the careful succession procedure to ensure optimum talent in the field is maintained without trying to question the validity of specialisation needed for India’s most enduring military challenge.


Anyone who knows the profession of soldiering would appreciate that the most important battle-winning factor for warriors remains the entire notion of trust. What the current leadership like many of those in the past has achieved is to maintain and build on the concept of trust. Commanders down the chain have been empowered and backed up many times even in the event of mistakes, which in such conditions will occur. It is important to allow the army to do its work and back it with equal degree of trust from the political leadership. The situation in J&K is as worrisome or stable as one may wish to read it. The most important thing is to back the political community and the administrative machinery and encourage them to provide quality governance and positive narratives even as the army holds the periphery and prevents any breach.


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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 05 Jul 2018 15:09

Mukesh.Kumar wrote:Rather good article from Lt. Gen. Syed Ata Hasnain from SwarajyaMag. Reproducing here in toto, will follow up with my comments and hypothesis in later post.

Snapshot
Rawat’s Robust Response: How The Chief Is Leading The Army’s Campaign In Jammu And Kashmir

  1. A lasting solution to the conflict in Jammu and Kashmir has to come from the political community and the administrative machinery.

  2. Before any of that, though, it falls on the army to create a stable security situation.

This must start on a personal note because the current Indian Army Chief, General Bipin Rawat, ........

It is in the third domain, the socio political one that the SF initiatives have yet to bear fruit to the degree desired. This is work in progress. It needs to be appreciated that soft power initiatives to take effect require the rebuilding of trust and creation of hope through restoration of the dignity and self-esteem of the people, and 2018 is the right year for that. To its credit, the army continued with almost all its soft power measures, but the ability to dilute alienation could enhance only marginally because of powerful narratives, which the separatists had been able to ingrain once again in the minds. General Rawat made it clear in a recent media interaction that the contribution, which infiltration made towards sustenance of levels of violence, has been curbed and controlled.

However, the terrorist strength today is being maintained through the phenomenon of local recruitment of youth driven by the passion generated on the streets and funerals of young terrorists, who were many cases their friends. This means that a virtually interminable chain of induction and availability of local terrorists will make the attainment of peace a non-starter. For this, the assistance of the political community, clergy and academics, and of parents, is a must. They have to be empowered to speak, travel and address through multiple means of communication. The army is never afraid to extend a helping hand well beyond its responsibilities as the attainment of peace remains its ultimate aim. If by its own presence or redeployment, it can assist in this effort, it will ensure that, and even provide necessary feedback for the efforts. The political community has to be urged to engage with the people but shorn of political rhetoric. This assurance has been given time and again by the Chief.

The political and social outreach is enabled by the domination achieved in the security situation. The continuity of that domination is as essential, because such strategies cannot work in fits and starts or remain driven by personalities. They have to be institutionalised. The army under its current Chief understands this better than almost all, and has, therefore, worked towards putting together its best practices for continuity. A major achievement in the internal dynamics of the army has been the careful succession procedure to ensure optimum talent in the field is maintained without trying to question the validity of specialisation needed for India’s most enduring military challenge.


........



Recently, we have observed on BRF a flurry of articles by ex-servicemen, calling for integration and a political solution. Even a hawk like Gaurav Arya, surprised by touching upon the issue and calling for a political solution. So what gives? I am going to go out on a limb and posit that we may be entering a decisive phase of finally solving Kashmir problem. And this soft opinion moulding put forth by ex-servicemen on peace and need for political solution is feelers put out by the Army. Why so?

While initially taken aback by the sudden call for revival of political process, I feel that the idea is not so outlandish anymore.

First contention: Military action has actually reduced scope of militancy, and overall situation is much better. But this is not a permanent solution. We have seen collapse of terrorist ability in 2012, to see a fresh upsurge. Local radicalization will reinforce and simmer underground, to be stoked up by external agencies at a time of their choice. I am not saying that we disband military presence in Kashmir, but that military action is only part of the process. Unless of course we decided to kill off at least a million or so of Kashmir's 7 million, terror cannot be controlled. That is something that may have worked in former Yugoslav republics, Chechenya, but doesn't work in Indic context. So yes military action, is a part of the process, not the end solution.
Second contention: India, for all its efforts never had a coherent policy in J&K in the last thirty years that looked at an end solution that was sustainable. We have lurched from crisis to crisis with knee jerk reactions. We have looked at a draw down of terrorist activity as a final solution, and then rushed in with token elections and civil efforts. Maybe, maybe, there has been a policy, but it was never discussed in public or stated. Hence, whatever we have done has lacked conviction. And we have circled back. What needs to happen is that the Army (military), King (Legislature) and the Common Man (public opinion) need to visualize an end state. Classic Clauswitzian Trinity, without which we will go round in circles. We don't need to discuss threadbare what will be done, but what the end goals are. We need to rally public opinion (because in my opinion, beyond generalities like 'Doodh mango ge to kheer denge, Kashmir mango ge to cheer denge, & half-baked joint sovereignity discussions), the Indian polity has no idea of what should be end state in Kashmir. To arrive at a sustainable decision, we need to understand and discuss threadbare all issues in public (like why joint-sovereignty is a recipe for failure), Article 370, the costs in deaths and realistic human rights issues that will have to be paid, what we are losing, without hyperbole. Once this is discussed, public opinion will help shape the government's policy (which is one advantage of our democratic system), paving the way for a coherent policy to the end. The Army's job is to help create the process, but they will not be able to cover the last mile.

So in summary, I feel that this kite-flying by ex-servicemen, is at behest of the Indian military, signalling that it is time we addressed this issue. The objective is to kick start public discussion. And finally what makes me hopeful, the situation on the ground and the timing with elections round the corner. Probably with a fresh government in power by June next year, the time has come to start the journey towards normalization provided this time, we address all legs of the Trinity in arriving at a solution.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 05 Jul 2018 15:32

Having seen the Kashmir situation since childhood, there will be no solution till Pakistan is broken up.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 05 Jul 2018 15:42

Aditya_V wrote:Having seen the Kashmir situation since childhood, there will be no solution till Pakistan is broken up.


@Aditya_V- Could be. Very possible, but does the Indian government, and more importantly polity know this? This is precisely, what I am advocating, an informed, devoid of hyperbole discussion. After examining a dismemberment of Pak, maybe we will decide that its not possible, but let us get the idea out. Today, the sense of bewilderment and swings of national sentiment are predicated by not knowing exactly what the costs and benefits are. Taht's why part of the nation cheered for joint-sovereignty post Agra summit. We don't know what we want, and therefore are bound to be confounded by everything. We will end up adopting a sub-optimal solution this way.

P.S. Aditya, another point. Just the dismemberment of Pak is also not a solution. We need to think ahead and see what peace would like, what of the various options are acceptable. A Pak in fragments would resemble the Levant. I would contend, we may have more problems than before.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Vikas » 05 Jul 2018 16:01

Aditya_V wrote:Having seen the Kashmir situation since childhood, there will be no solution till Pakistan is broken up.


Aditya, There is a elephant in the room and we somehow talk about it in hush-hush manner. I don't think only breaking up of Pakistan will solve the Kashmir tangle. Like moving the red light, it might push the problem away for couple of decades.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby abhik » 05 Jul 2018 19:55

Maybe Vajpyee and MMS were visionaries for trying to make peace with the pakies. Our 3 decade track record shows that we are unwilling or incapable of winning this war.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 05 Jul 2018 21:00

abhik wrote:Maybe Vajpyee and MMS were visionaries for trying to make peace with the pakies. Our 3 decade track record shows that we are unwilling or incapable of winning this war.


Precisely what the ex- servicemen have been hinting at. There is no solely military solution to JAK.

Also for a moment lets assume that ABV and MMS were visionaries. But they never stools the idea to the rest of the country, to the vox populi. That would have made it extremely difficult to get it approved by parliament. The opposition in absence of public opinion supporting the government would have torn them to shreds.

Now let's examine what happened and the proposals. In absence of a concrete examination, the wishy washy desire for ' Aman ka asha ' wilted away under the first roadblocks.

Please understand I am not trying to trigger a flame war but just genuinely interested in throwing open a discussion. Apologies if I have come across otherwise

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Picklu » 05 Jul 2018 21:20

Naxal movement in Bengal and Khalistan movement in Punjab didn't have any less local support. We crushed them and we will crush the Sunni movement in Kashmir also (I refuse to call it by any other name)

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 05 Jul 2018 21:43

Picklu wrote:Naxal movement in Bengal and Khalistan movement in Punjab didn't have any less local support. We crushed them and we will crush the Sunni movement in Kashmir also (I refuse to call it by any other name)


You have me there. Don't know enough about the Naxal movement. But to my mind it just went underground to surface later in other form.

As far as Punjab was concerned the tide turned with Beant Singh election. It was necessary to bring in the electoral process and give people a say in the vacuum of lowered terrorist activity. Else after a hiatus three movement would have emerged again.

Tell me why with close to a 1:10 tattoo of security forces in JAK over so many years we have not been able to solve this? What are we lacking?

Edited later:
What will peace in JAK look like?

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 05 Jul 2018 21:49

WTF 1:10 myth here. This thread is being hijacked. It is just 60 battalions of RR in coin and a few more thousand CRPF.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 05 Jul 2018 22:05

Aditya_V wrote:WTF 1:10 myth here. This thread is being hijacked. It is just 60 battalions of RR in coin and a few more thousand CRPF.



Please stop the hyperbole. No intention of hijacking the thread. If we take your numbers as correct then the numbers as up to 50K approx for RR. CRPF + JAK police lets put it to another 20 K. That means 70K total. Much smaller number than the earlier estimate I had put at 700K ps. But still a sizable number. This is discounting the regular army deployed on LOC. So what? Does this mean we need to increase numbers? Well that solve the problem?

And look I am covering on a pattern that I am seeing from ex servicemen we hold as sensible. At least give this a thought.


Later edit: Have to get out of this management consultant habit of back of the envelop calculations. But RR ~ 50 K. JAK Police at 83K. Plus CRPF~ 70K. So totals about 200K. Leaving aside Army and BSF on IB and LOC. Including Ladakh and Jammu with valley population of 12.5 mn. So your ratio is 1:63 approx. Still a small number?
What's the end game?

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Rahul M » 05 Jul 2018 22:23

the non-military solution is abolish 370 and let people from rest of India settle there, starting with KP's & retd. army/CAPF people.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Picklu » 06 Jul 2018 00:32

Mukesh.Kumar wrote:
Picklu wrote:Naxal movement in Bengal and Khalistan movement in Punjab didn't have any less local support. We crushed them and we will crush the Sunni movement in Kashmir also (I refuse to call it by any other name)


You have me there.

.............

What are we lacking?



We are not lacking anything.

What you are going through is a medical syndrome typical in desi patriots, called "MSM induced depression". Many are known to suffer of bouts of it periodically (been there, done that)

I prescribe keeping away from MSM completely for the next 1 month and reading swarajyamag for at least an hour before bed every night. Should cure it fast.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 06 Jul 2018 02:11

Picklu wrote:
Mukesh.Kumar wrote:
You have me there.

.............

What are we lacking?



We are not lacking anything.

What you are going through is a medical syndrome typical in desi patriots, called "MSM induced depression". Many are known to suffer of bouts of it periodically (been there, done that)

I prescribe keeping away from MSM completely for the next 1 month and reading swarajyamag for at least an hour before bed every night. Should cure it fast.


Dada, the article I quoted was from SwarajyaMag. When someone like Lt. Gen. Hasnain writes I sit up and take it seriously. If you go through my post history a few months before I was jumping up and down as how could Gaurav Arya be talking of a non military end game.

Disclaimer: I don't watch any Indian TV. Read BBC for a contrarian view. Full diet of Swarajya and BRF only. :twisted: :twisted: And for good measure I do datun by chewing up a couple of my shimmy batch mates on FB before going to sleep.
:mrgreen:

P.S. Guess we both are from the same city where you have gobindobhog chalet fanne bhaat. But sad to say I know very little about the crushing of Naxals
Last edited by Mukesh.Kumar on 06 Jul 2018 02:21, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Primus » 06 Jul 2018 02:12

Picklu wrote:
Mukesh.Kumar wrote:
You have me there.

.............

What are we lacking?



We are not lacking anything.

What you are going through is a medical syndrome typical in desi patriots, called "MSM induced depression". Many are known to suffer of bouts of it periodically (been there, done that)

I prescribe keeping away from MSM completely for the next 1 month and reading swarajyamag for at least an hour before bed every night. Should cure it fast.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 06 Jul 2018 02:18

Rahul M wrote:the non-military solution is abolish 370 and let people from rest of India settle there, starting with KP's & retd. army/CAPF people.


@ RahulM . I agree 370 had to go. Two ways in which we can create a changed ground opinion. One dilute views currently held ( have almost given up on the current brain washed lot) or dilute population. For this 370 has to go. But that only opens the window. How do we anchor the population there. Have some thoughts. Will share in details over the weekend.

What else do we need to do? Plus how can we remove 370?

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby prahaar » 06 Jul 2018 03:29

J&K solution may not be only military, but it needs military at least for the time being. Republic of India has the staying power and it should persistently dominate the terrorists in the few districts they operate substantially. Probably the people who follow/act in the course of events may get tired at some point and want a closure but the nation works based on national interest.

The clean political solution was what MKG JLN SP et al agreed to partition, a political solution to the grievances. They hoped, in vain, that this would lead to permanent peace and afford a newly independent country the time to recuperate and help improve lives of its citizens. Nothing of that sort happened. 1948 events are a testimony to that.

The ISIS supporting Jihadists in J&K should not be rewarded in any way for their stone-pelting, lynchings, horrific violence on security forces and civilians.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby chetak » 06 Jul 2018 04:01

Mukesh.Kumar wrote:
abhik wrote:Maybe Vajpyee and MMS were visionaries for trying to make peace with the pakies. Our 3 decade track record shows that we are unwilling or incapable of winning this war.


Precisely what the ex- servicemen have been hinting at. There is no solely military solution to JAK.

Also for a moment lets assume that ABV and MMS were visionaries. But they never stools the idea to the rest of the country, to the vox populi. That would have made it extremely difficult to get it approved by parliament. The opposition in absence of public opinion supporting the government would have torn them to shreds.

Now let's examine what happened and the proposals. In absence of a concrete examination, the wishy washy desire for ' Aman ka asha ' wilted away under the first roadblocks.

Please understand I am not trying to trigger a flame war but just genuinely interested in throwing open a discussion. Apologies if I have come across otherwise


ABV and MMS are musharraf favorites, even today and he cannot stop praising them enough.They were both fairly ordinary PMs, pliable to international flattery and the the idea of the nobel. If Agra had not been torpedoed in time we would have signed away a lot of things by now. The BJP would have undoubetedly become electorally radioactive and untouchable for the next 100 or so years. musharraf led both ABA and MMS by the nose, aided in the background by the ameriki inducement of the nobel.

It just means that both ABA and MMS were either taken up with musharraf's silly arguments or were leaning towards it. The same old silly nonsense of joint sovereignty and open borders, free unhindered movement, people to people contacts in cashmere and any other schitt for the pakis to gain free access into cashmere by any means, fair or foul because they have not been able to accomplish this singular feat using their famed (largely imagined and mythical) war fighting capabilities.

In this part of the world, the LTTE has taught everyone what exactly is meant by "free access" and what can be done with this "free access". Make no mistake, everyone has learned this LTTE "free access" lesson really, really well, especially the pakis.

musharraf spews venom on Modi regularly from all available media platforms because Modi is not taken in by his snake oil salesman charms and he is pissed off with his own paki media channels because they have begun to appreciate modi as compared to their own pygmy paki politicians and the corruptions that they regularly indulge in.

On TV, musharraf comes across as a serious mental case with delusions of grandeur and he just cannot stomach a strong Indian PM with a clear mind of his own. musharraf used to soften up ABA and MMS using Indian "intellectuals" and the presstitute Indian media which is the preferred ISI way but just like lootyens dilli is still shell shocked, post 2014, ISI has also discovered that they simply have no way of approaching Modi, officially or especially unofficilally over some single malt, tandoori and good old pakjabi pappi jhappi like they used to do with some earlier Indian PMs and cabinet ministers.

They have now pressed in the commies, JNU type "gutter intellectuals", urban naxals and some venomous but pretty ladies on runditv to undermine Modi.

The only joint control that the pakis ever wanted was over the head waters of the rivers of cashmere. Even control over one bank of river would give them veto over India's dams and hence the "chenab" plan of the pakis which ultimately fell through.

The IA knows exactly what the pakis are after in cashmere and no one, either serving or retired, is going to propose or even support any another solution except total and everlasting Indian control over cashmere.

Aman ki asha is a ISI sponsored psyco warfare ploy to suborn India's so called intellectuals and sensitize India's aam jantha to the imagined and eventual loss of cashmere so that anti muslim riots don't break out in India.

If cashmere is handed over, the partition riots and butchery will seem like a joyous picnic on a nice summers day, compared to what will happen now.

There is no Indian veteran or ex serviceman hinting at surrendering in or surrendering cashmere to the pakis. All these guys have a dog in the fight and will not let down the IA under any circumstances. Anything to the contrary is a mere figment of someone's hyperactive imagination. Namak and Nishan is the eternal elixir that they all run on.

There are other issues simmering in the background which the jetli gang has convinced the DDM not to report, take cognizance of or simply ignore. It is because of these issues that the govt may not receive as enthuastic a support during the 2019 elections as they did the last time around from this huge and almost monolithic votebank. It is anger against some decisions that have not been implemented by the GoI and the less than decent/honest behaviour of jetli when he was DEFMIN and his perfidious and venal baboo(n) gang.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Jul 2018 09:55

We are discounting the fact that the West, Islamic Countries and China have backed Pakistan all this time. Pakistanis do mass executions like Chittisingh pura , Kill even Shujaat Bhukhari who deviates from the script plus Islamic countries which keep the children of Hurriyat well fed, many of them see India as a weak nation. We have not yet a sustained leadership for 15-20 years who have focused on Economic and Miltary development. So they think they can get away by behaving like Sri Lanka/Nepal and et al for the get GOI to foot the bill.

Once Pakistan splits once more with Baluchistan/ NWFP as separate, it becomes a set of small states which cannot challenge India. This means for the entire subcontinent going with India will become only alternative leading to long term peace.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Vikas » 06 Jul 2018 13:04

Aditya_V wrote:Once Pakistan splits once more with Baluchistan/ NWFP as separate, it becomes a set of small states which cannot challenge India. This means for the entire subcontinent going with India will become only alternative leading to long term peace.


Kya Aditya ? Like Nepal,SL, BD and now Maldives is famoulsy getting along with us. A population with a different orientation and cross border loyalty is the biggest impediment in resolving Kashmir issue.

To think that GoI and its interlocuters have always been honest brokers is stretching the truth too far. There were Govts / Leaders who wanted Kashmir issue to either simmer or resolve in a way helping them electorally.
I don't see this issue getting resolved in our generation.

PS: I still believe that no Govt including NM's have no concrete game plan to fix this issue.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Vikas » 06 Jul 2018 13:06

So this new Chinese whispers of BJP breaking PDP and forming a Govt in J&K with Dr. Jitendra Singh as CM is going around. Might not be such a bad idea though.
Ofcourse that would mean BJP in a fix because core voters would demand repealing of Article 370 asap by moving a resolution in the assembly.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 06 Jul 2018 20:21

Rahul M wrote:the non-military solution is abolish 370 and let people from rest of India settle there, starting with KP's & retd. army/CAPF people.


@RahulM. Article 370 has to go. But it poses a big constitutional challenge. With the Supreme Court opining that it cannot be changed it makes the task even more difficult. Short of a majority in Rajya Sabha and Lok Sabha and a Constitutional Amendment nothing can be done. That is a real order. And even if it were to happen you will have the usual lifafa gang raise a ruckus of democracy under threat. Plots interminable legal wrangling.

Till the time we get to that I think the objective should be to harden public opinion against JAK and article 370. Rest of India needs to know more. We need to bring into public discourse how JAK benefits. We need a few movies on the plight of KP's the tales of soldiers martyred. This way even the rising ruckus by the usual lifafa gang can be countered.

Thoughts??

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 06 Jul 2018 20:47

Vikas wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Once Pakistan splits once more with Baluchistan/ NWFP as separate, it becomes a set of small states which cannot challenge India. This means for the entire subcontinent going with India will become only alternative leading to long term peace.


Kya Aditya ? Like Nepal,SL, BD and now Maldives is famoulsy getting along with us. A population with a different orientation and cross border loyalty is the biggest impediment in resolving Kashmir issue.

They may not be getting along, but they dont cause us that much pain as a united entity pakistan can cause. the split of eastern pakistan saved us from a perpetual 2 front war. The split of west pakistan will help us concentrate our resources on problem area that is Punjab or kashmir.

Vikas wrote:PS: I still believe that no Govt including NM's have no concrete game plan to fix this issue.

You are right, to solve such a long festering issue, we either need a trump style madman or someone like balasaheb thakre who can see past the rational behaviour (and can act like irrational without fear) or a China style govt that can plan and act long term. When the govt of day has to think of elections every 5 years adn appease minorities then it is very hard.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 06 Jul 2018 21:00

Also since non PR cannot bit property in JAK how do you settle people from outside there? Furthermore even if we can get a KP our retired force personnel to venture out there what will they do? All over India we see migration from second class cities to the metros. Why will out be different in JAK? Is there free agricultural land to settle people in rural areas? Four cities what will they do?

One solution could be Centre days that JAK needs economic development. Opens PSU's or sets up SEZ's that require specialized skills for which you can import people from rest of India. Create economic enclaves with fig leaf cover of concurrence of State government. Slowly change demographics.

Similarly under guise of eco farms set up organic orchards with 999 years lease of government land. Staff with people from crowded parts of India. A kibbutz type movement that Israelis did. And of course youil need to ensure security because a few fidayeen attacks against these assets will end in a mass exit.

Article 370 is a legal problem. If we can't abrogate or totally l look for legal loopholes to dilute its impact and change ground position. Again the only way this can be done is if there is informed public support. Then it will be difficult for a change in government to undo steps. Our democracy is messy and fractious but it also has huge strengths. Any solution to Kashmir needs public opinion on rest of India to be moulded towards an informed choice. That way government will be forced to take action. And also we can avoid missteps like MMS and ABV's joint sovereignty.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 06 Jul 2018 21:12

ArjunPandit wrote:
Vikas wrote:
Kya Aditya ? Like Nepal,SL, BD and now Maldives is famoulsy getting along with us. A population with a different orientation and cross border loyalty is the biggest impediment in resolving Kashmir issue.

They may not be getting along, but they dont cause us that much pain as a united entity pakistan can cause. the split of eastern pakistan saved us from a perpetual 2 front war. The split of west pakistan will help us concentrate our resources on problem area that is Punjab or kashmir.

Vikas wrote:PS: I still believe that no Govt including NM's have no concrete game plan to fix this issue.

You are right, to solve such a long festering issue, we either need a trump style madman or someone like balasaheb thakre who can see past the rational behaviour (and can act like irrational without fear) or a China style govt that can plan and act long term. When the govt of day has to think of elections every 5 years adn appease minorities then it is very hard.


@Arjun. Both DT & Balasahib did not appear out of vacuum. More than anyone else I would say that they were created by their constituencies.

It's not hard. If we could get even 5% of Indian public opinion agreeing on a broad solution to Kashmir which is sustainable, however expensive in short term we can effect this change.

I don't have the skills but we need more articles in media probing the issue. Making the Indian public aware of the pain that we are having in JAK. Why JAK needs to be integrated. That joint sovereignty is c**p. Why Pak will never make peace.

Tongue in cheek I am tempted to quote Shakespeare,

"The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
But in ourselves, that we are underlings."


The ultimate failure in JAK had been in allowing the issue to go out of consciousness of rest on India. Just like Pak had single point agenda never losing focus on Kashmir, never let it go out of public attention. We also need to do this- on our terms in a narrative of our choice.


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