J&K News and Discussion - 2016

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chetak
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby chetak » 24 Apr 2017 21:15

Vikas wrote:
ramana wrote:On Kashmir you are with or against India.
Doesn't matter whether you are heaven born or commoner like us.
Very clear who is with India.
Not those two retd., officers.


+100 to that.
What is this fascination with winning hearts and minds of KM. Not happening with current Generation and next Generation too is lost for good.Anyways those whose hearts and minds are with Bharat (everyone in J&K excluding KM's), what extra benefits they have reaped.

Development and Money is not going to tilt KM towards India nor this heart and mind battle as long as Pakistan is not Fixed.
I still believe that General Politico in Delhi has no clue on how to resolve this J&K problem politically.
More than being a Closet Islamist, Mehbooba is not a good administrator nor she knows how to rule. It is more of her Incompetence that is causing all the mayhem. Those who want to be all things to all the people end up being non one to nobody.

I too am in favor of Quadi-furcating the state but still don't know how will that resolve the problem as long as we let KM be the dominant player in this narrative.

PS: If we want to divide the state, Just make any Budhist or Hindu, CM of J&K and you would see how KMs erupt into demanding a separate state.


mehbooba has been a jehadi for as long as long as I can remember. Other people have forgotten this fact to their own peril. she is not intelligent but very cunning as the BJP has discovered.

Where have the Indians ever won the hearts and minds of the muslims in India?? WHERE??

and WTF are we even trying??

hearts and minds is a jehadi tactic used to ease the pressure everywhere in the world when the going gets tough for them and it's used by commies/naxals and other dhimmis who are eager to come to their aid.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ramana » 24 Apr 2017 21:19

chetak, How do you make lemonade with karela?

You work with what you got.

Both NC and Congress were even worse in letting the J&K go downhill.

Taker a look at the 2014 election results by each constituency: BJP came second in 7 seats.
They even won in Chenab.

http://www.mapsofindia.com/assemblypoll ... sults.html

With that forming a govt., was the right step.


You want them to sit it out?

Lets see how it is played.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby chetak » 24 Apr 2017 21:26

ramana wrote:chetak, How do you make lemonade with karela?

You work with what you got.

Both NC and Congress were even worse in letting the J&K go downhill.

Taker a look at the 2014 election results by each constituency: BJP came second in 7 seats.
They even won in Chenab.

With that forming a govt., was the right step.


You want them to sit it out?

Lets see how it is played.


no issue with the BJP forming the govt. That was a right step.

It's ceding the control of the govt that was not right.

In cashmere, the party in power at the center has a great deal of say.

The BJP had a double advantage here. It had a credible presence in the J&K assembly as well as credible and an undeniably unencumbered govt at the center. This is what it failed to leverage.

the BJP meekly let the tail wag the dog when it well knew that the PDP directly represented paki interests.

It's the same hearts and minds BS that clouded the realpolitik on the ground.

Just remember how mehbooba is always screaming about the vajpayee approach which is the very same tune that the pakis sing. That should tell us something, no??

even musharraf was loudly singing this very tune on his WION TV interview yesterday.
Last edited by chetak on 24 Apr 2017 21:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ramana » 24 Apr 2017 21:32

Ceding control was not in their hands but in voter hands. Had BJP gotten a couple of more seats or even NC got them, BJP would have controlled the govt.


Politics is the art of what's possible when you don't have majority.

Pellet guns were first freely used against the stone pelters under PDP_BJP govt.

Right now its the biggest party in Upper House.

Already NC, Congress, Pakistan and US are fretting which didn't happen before.
NaMo has made inroads across the border in POK too.


Lets see how it unfolds.

I suggest you see the full picture bringing your training and not rely on media exaggerations.

I am optimistic that we will see the end soon not later.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby chetak » 24 Apr 2017 21:35

ramana wrote:Ceding control was not in their hands but in voter hands. Had BJP gotten a couple of more seats or even NC got them, BJP would have controlled the govt.


Politics is the art of what's possible when you don't have majority.

Pellet guns were first freely used against the stone pelters under PDP_BJP govt.

Right now its the biggest party in Upper House.
Lets see how it unfolds.


this conventional approach is not to be used in kashmir.

The center has an overarching reach and power over the state, notwithstanding art 370.

In no other Indian state does the center loom as large, or is the state as dependent on the center.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ramana » 24 Apr 2017 21:59

Agree with all that you say.

However the dynamics is such that a local face (PDP or NC) is needed unless BJP gets a majority.
And both are family outfits.

PDP and NC need to be liberated from Mufti and Abdullah families.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ramana » 24 Apr 2017 22:07

Three month 'last ditch' plan to restore calm

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/after-pm ... ir-1685414

They keep invoking Vajpayee but those times were different.
Can't chant old formula for new situation.
But its a good carrot for the stick is still there.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby chetak » 24 Apr 2017 22:23

ramana wrote:Agree with all that you say.

However the dynamics is such that a local face (PDP or NC) is needed unless BJP gets a majority.
And both are family outfits.

PDP and NC need to be liberated from Mufti and Abdullah families.


emasculate the abdullahs' pere et fils and eviscerate the pdp by engineering splits.

It's well within the capabilities of the BJP to cut the abdullahs to size.

Either use the power you have or get used by jehadis like mehbooba.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby chetak » 24 Apr 2017 22:37

ramana wrote:Three month 'last ditch' plan to restore calm

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/after-pm ... ir-1685414

They keep invoking Vajpayee but those times were different.
Can't chant old formula for new situation.
But its a good carrot for the stick is still there.


ABA would have let musharraf succeed in his nefarious plans in cashmere and hobbled India forever in the name of insaniyat and kashmiriyat.

That one bank of the chenab plan would have gutted India and delivered cashmere to the pakis on a plate.

Beware of the Chenab plan



By: Arindam Banerji, Ph.D.
arindam_banerji@yahoo.com
June 19, 2003

Something that is about to come down on India within the next few weeks or months – the forcing of the Chenab plan on India, by Pakistan and their friends in the US.

The reason for such an obnoxious plan seeing the light of day - simple! India has never bothered to propose anything better.

(1) The first mention of this possibility came in the article by Arvind Lavakare in rediff : http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/may/31arvind.htm

as "Memories of that nightmare were aroused by a recent report from The News of May 15 e-mailed by Varsha Bhosle. Based on Geo TV's 'Capital Talk' programme, the report said Niaz A Naik, former Pak foreign secretary, had, for the first time, disclosed on television that he had discussed the 'Chenab Formula' with Prime Minister Vajpayee and R K Mishra in 1999 as a solution to the Kashmir dispute during his back-channel diplomacy in Delhi. Naik claimed he discussed the formula with a map of J&K in front and that Vajpayee had shown 'a lot of interest' in the formula. In a nutshell, the Chenab Formula meant that J&K state would be divided between Hindu and Muslim majority areas, with the city of Srinagar and most parts of the Kashmir valley going to Pakistan as the population of these areas consist of a Muslim majority. Naik also said India and Pakistan could discuss the formula again.

This latest revelation by Naik about Vajpayee's interest in the Chenab Formula makes one suspect, nay dread, that there was more than a grain of truth in the article by senior journalist M D Nalapat, datelined New Delhi, July 9, 2001 and posted on tehelka.com With the Agra summit only a few days away, Nalapat wrote of 'getting reports that individuals close to Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee had assured their Pakistani interlocutors that he would, in effect, hand over the Kashmir valley to the jehadis in exchange for peace elsewhere.'

(2) But, since then the Kashmir Telegraph has been reporting the same, as in http://www.kashmirtelegraph.com/0603/one.htm

- "EDITOR'S NOTE: Kashmir TELEGRAPH has reasons to believe -- beyond any shadow of doubt -- that United States is 'arm-twisting' Pakistan -- more specifically, India, in accepting the 'Chenab Plan'. A 'sinister plot', which if America has its way, brings about the division of the Indian state of Jammu & Kashmir on religious lines -- with Muslim-majority areas accorded a quasi-sovereign status. BJP -- the ruling party -- it seems, has all along been clandestinely involved in this sinister plot, which undermines the basis principle -- rejection of the two-nation theory -- on the basis of which India was founded. It is in this context that one must examine the remarks of General Jay Garner, setting December, 2004 as the American deadline for resolving the Kashmir issue. What are the specifics of the Chenab Plan? Who are (have been) the chief actors behind the scenes? Excerpts from an essay, entitled, J & K after 9 /11, published by Kashmir TELEGRAPH in its June, 2002 edition (in arrangement with Institute for Conflict Management, New Delhi)."

(3) On Friday, on Fox News Bill O’ Reilly’s show, Mansoor Ijaz (one of the prime negotiators of the 2000 ceasefire) claimed that he’s in Paris negotiating on the Kashmir issue between India and Pakistan – claimed that it would take him one more week to finish initial negotiations between the Indians and the Pakistanis.

(4) Saleem Shehzad says in his article http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/EF18Df02.html published in Asia Times, that "Sources in the Foreign Office familiar with the agenda say that key decisions likely to be agreed on by Musharraf and Bush at Camp David include the following:
- A clear road map for resolution of the Kashmir conflict in which the "Chanab" formula, which envisages the division of Kashmir along religious lines, is likely to be adopted. Thus, the Muslim-majority areas would be allowed to join Pakistan, while the areas where Hindus and Buddhists are in the majority would remain with India…."

(5) Both Vajpayee and Advani in recent weeks have talked about compromise on Kashmir and/or flexibility on Kashmir.

(6) Finally, Kasuri said that "preparations for the blueprint were under way" in HT. The problem is as a well-known Indian journalist wrote to me "those in authority in Delhi are interested in gunning for those who oppose them, not those who oppose the nation."

Such a move would certainly mean a huge strategic change for India - unfortunately, not a very good one …

Arindam Banerji, Ph.D.


That's why all the pakis keep quoting and praising ABA and notice how carefully no one ever has let slip the contours of this musharraf plan in the open. It only means that the plan is completely unpalatable to the Indians and the pakis were relying on some pathetic poetry and SHEHRI MEHFIL to see them through.

mehbooba screaming continually for the implementation of the vajpayee approach simply means that she is firmly with the pakis and not India.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby anjan » 24 Apr 2017 23:18

ramana wrote:On Kashmir you are with or against India.
Doesn't matter whether you are heaven born or commoner like us.
Very clear who is with India.
Not those two retd., officers.

That's a very american approach. That has never been how India has approached CI. The relative success of the two methods is very visible.

I note too the changing of the terms of the debate. You've made this an argument on birth and framed yourself as the everyman. Who was arguing about their parentage though? Experience? Definitely. Certainly someone who's commanded a div/cmd in CI has a lot more context and experience to back up an opinion. What experience is your opinion based on? Do you know of any historical insurgency that has been won on this philosophy of yours? Any that came close?

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Vikas » 24 Apr 2017 23:24

I still wonder how the economy of Kashmir is still chugging along. Sure Govt jobs are there and there is some money from $hittistan but that alone can't run the economy of Kashmir as there are no tourists anymore nor there is any business.
Then how do people get to be still middle or upper middle class. Haven't heard or seen poverty in Kashmir like we see in rest of India. So what gives ?

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby tandav » 24 Apr 2017 23:28

I propose exchanging Srinagar valley along with all those who want to join Pakistan in return for all of Balochistan and Sindh to India and resettlement of all those currently in Balochistan and Sindh who want to live in Pakistan to Pakjab.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Vikas » 24 Apr 2017 23:31

ramana wrote:Vikas, Hearts will change if fundamentals are in hand.


I agree Ramana Ji. We are playing with the cards we currently hold and not we wish to hold.
From History I have seen that Islamists bow to the power only from Ranjit Singh to Hari Singh Nalwa to Shivaji Maharaj to Maharaja Ranbir Singh to British forces in NW/Punjab.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ramana » 24 Apr 2017 23:55

tandav wrote:I propose exchanging Srinagar valley along with all those who want to join Pakistan in return for all of Balochistan and Sindh to India and resettlement of all those currently in Balochistan and Sindh who want to live in Pakistan to Pakjab.

NO. Those who want to go to Pakistan/Pakjab can go.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Prem » 25 Apr 2017 00:03

tandav wrote:I propose exchanging Srinagar valley along with all those who want to join Pakistan in return for all of Balochistan and Sindh to India and resettlement of all those currently in Balochistan and Sindh who want to live in Pakistan to Pakjab.


Mood on ground in Desh is even harder than this. After Jihadis are finished in Srinagar, survivors from Ganga to Kashmir Valley will get full assistance to move to Pakjabistan.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby chetak » 25 Apr 2017 04:05

Vikas wrote:I still wonder how the economy of Kashmir is still chugging along. Sure Govt jobs are there and there is some money from $hittistan but that alone can't run the economy of Kashmir as there are no tourists anymore nor there is any business.
Then how do people get to be still middle or upper middle class. Haven't heard or seen poverty in Kashmir like we see in rest of India. So what gives ?


look at their figures of population density, per capita central govt money spent in cashmere and then see where the rest of the states stand in comparrison.

Almost every cashmiri or his relative is a govt employee, simply sucking up the benefits, and living off the fat of the land and freeloading on the jizya of the Hindus.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Anindya » 25 Apr 2017 04:21

Chetak - thanks for posting that article - had forgotten about it.

Tandav - As the name of the plan suggests - this has always been about getting to "as close" to the river headwaters as possible(for Pakistan). Letting Pakistan get "any closer" to these river headwaters is not an option we can afford - will affect several hundreds of millions of lives. What Kashmiri Muslims do not realize is that when it comes down to it - given the enormity of the impact of the river water access - they are at best expendable (for both sides).

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ShauryaT » 25 Apr 2017 04:55

Chetak: Do not judge Vajpayee by what the Pakistanis write of him or Indians influenced by Pakistanis write. He was no dove but a master strategist and a leader par excellence, who gave India's best government as of yet. His times were different and he had to deal with the realities as its existed then. The current dispensation would be nowhere were it not for the foundations these leaders had set. So, yes please do judge him, but on facts not very biased opinions.

Muslims are here to stay and will be there in the valley forever - is a fact. They will be part of India forever is also a fact. How do you want to deal with your fellow citizens is the question. How do we want to break this cycle of lingering suspicion and mistrust is the question. How to accomplish the integration is the question. How to stop Pakistan from winning is the question.

Anyone, who remotely talks of a compromise on sovereignty, partitions India again. Let alone ABV contemplating so. Even retaining all the land but loosing the people metaphorically or physically is a net loss to the Indian nation. What ABV did during his times and those were some times was to deal with the issues at hand then. He did so beautifully going back and forth between, diplomacy, war, international pressure, CI tactics. The net end result was the CFA, leading to a dramatic reduction in violence the fruits of which are enjoyed by us today.

What I want the current dispensation to do is wield the issue and act - even if some acts backfire but they will learn that way. Sitting tight on things, like MMS did will only wither the gains away. FYI: The chenab plan has been around since the 60's.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby chetak » 25 Apr 2017 05:54

not a word by this jehadi CM about violent stone pelters or the serious injuries to the security personnel as a direct result of the stone throwing.

in return for the stones she wants "Insaniyat, Kashmiriyat, Jamhooriyat" as the framework for dialogue. this is total BS

She also wants the Hurriyat to be party to the talks and

the father abdullah wants India to open an immediate dialogue with the pakis. Start talks now, also with Pakistan: Farooq Abdullah

This seems to be the grand paki game plan to force India to the dialogue table.


Mehbooba Mufti meet PM Modi; asks for dialogue to achieve peace in Kashmir valley




Mehbooba Mufti meet PM Modi; asks for dialogue to achieve peace in Kashmir valley

24th April 2017

Recent tensions in the PDP-BJP alliance over the handling of the security situation in Kashmir also came up at the meeting.

NEW DELHI: While appealing Prime Minister Narendra Modi to follow the approach of former Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee is what's urgently needed as salve for Kashmir, Chief Minister Mehbooba Mufti also requested PM Modi to initiate a dialogue to contain the deteriorating situation in the valley.

In her crucial meet with the Prime Minister Modi at 7 Lok Kalyan Marg lasted for nearly 30 minutes, Jammu and Kashmir chief minister said “at time when stone pelting and firing are on, talks are difficult, but the Prime Minister has invoked Vajpayee many times (and) there is a need to start building from what Vajpayee had achieved”

Mufti has urged the centre to begin talks with stakeholders in Kashmir, following Vajpayee's famous commitment to "Insaniyat, Kashmiriyat, Jamhooriyat" as the framework for dialogue. But Mufti wants the Hurriyat - a group of separatist leaders - to be party to the talks, which the centre has not accepted so far.

BJP asks Jammu and Kashmir CM Mufti to take proactive steps in spending the Rs 80,000 crore package

Briefing reporters outside Prime minister Residence, she said, "The prime minister has an intention of holding talks after the situation becomes normal. And thread should be picked up from where Vajpayeeji had left off- an apparent suggestion for talks with separatists. "Talks with Hurriyat (Conference) had taken place when Vajpayee ji was the Prime Minister and L K Advani ji was the Deputy Prime Minister. We need to start from where Vajpayee ji left. Talks are the only way out," she said.

Stressing on the need for talks as the only option, Mufti said that an atmosphere needs to be created for a dialogue by maintaining that confrontation cannot be continued for long. ‘Talks cannot happen amid stone pelting and firing of bullets," she said. Mufti also apprised PM on the prevailing security situation in the valley, particularly in the increase in violence since the April 9 by-poll for the Srinagar Lok Sabha constituency and “human shield’ episode by army.

During the meeting, both leaders discussed the escalating rift between the BJP and PDP state government after the PDP lost a seat in the recently held MLC polls when an independent MLA voted in favour of BJP candidate Vikram Randhawa, leading to his victory. She also raised the Indus water treaty issue, saying it was causing a huge loss of Rs 20,000 crore to the state.

Referring to the increase in stone-pelting incidents in the Valley, she said there were some young people who were "disillusioned" while some were being "instigated", often through the use of social media sites such as Facebook and Whatsapp.

Later in the day, Mehbooba Mufti met Union Home Minister Rajnath Singh and discussed at length the prevailing security situation in the Valley. Singh is learnt to have emphasised during the meeting that the law and order being a State subject needs to be tackled effectively even as the Centre was willing to extend all support to contain the worsening situation. Singh is learnt to have expressed concern over the increased attrition of the security forces in 2016, targeting of the families of the police personnel and growing radicalisation especially amongst the youths. Emerging from the meeting with Singh, Mehbooba said, “We want to improve the situation in Jammu and Kashmir. The next two-three months are very crucial.....situation will come under control.”

Ahead of his meeting with Mehbooba, Singh reviewed the security situation in the State with the top Intelligence and Central paramilitary brass. Those who attended the meet with Singh included National Security Advisor Ajit Doval, Intelligence Bureau Chief Rajiv Jain and head of the Central paramilitary forces and other senior officials of the Ministry, official sources said.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ramana » 25 Apr 2017 07:18

Chetak, Suppose by magic I give you Lahore to govern and it has 90 Assy seats. How would you do it?

Just an exercise.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby tandav » 25 Apr 2017 08:13

Anindya wrote:Chetak - thanks for posting that article - had forgotten about it.

Tandav - As the name of the plan suggests - this has always been about getting to "as close" to the river headwaters as possible(for Pakistan). Letting Pakistan get "any closer" to these river headwaters is not an option we can afford - will affect several hundreds of millions of lives. What Kashmiri Muslims do not realize is that when it comes down to it - given the enormity of the impact of the river water access - they are at best expendable (for both sides).


The Headwaters mostly near Leh and Ladakh remain in India only Srinagar Valley or a part thereoff is hived off and population transfer takes place in return for Balochistan and Sindh.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby CRamS » 25 Apr 2017 09:05

chetak, anybody even with pea brain knows that this whole circus is being orchestrated like a symphony from GHQ in Rawalpindi with one key aim: force India to the negotiating table with TSP and KMs on one side, and India on the other, and then once talks start, you have the traitors kick in with berating India as being the bad guy not making concessions for p!ss. The end game of this triumvirate evil: TSP, KMs, and Indian traitors is to give the valley to TSP through some kind joint love making, and the traitors are perfectly fine with this as a manifestation of their "secularism". And if BJP opposes that it is "Hindu extremists" against p!ss, "hyper nationalists" you name it. Believe me this is the conspiracy that is unfolding. One only needs to read between the lines of this terrorist pasand traitors puke

http://www.hindustantimes.com/opinion/m ... j5ovO.html

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby wig » 25 Apr 2017 09:45

excellent analysis of J&K , it needs to be read in full, excerpts do not do justice to the write up
http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/deteriora ... n-kashmir/
excerpts
the imams are paid a salary from public money for bad mouthing !
The administrative cadres in almost all districts of the valley are infiltrated and indoctrinated. Government functionaries are subverting administration. All sources of accountability are made defunct and all voices of rationality are stifled,
Religious Imams, local or imported from UP and Bihar pour out anti-India venom during their sermons from the pulpit of mosques and amusinglythey are paid monthly stipend or salary of ten thousand rupees a person from the national exchequer. Is there an example in the world where a State pays a certain section of its population to carry anti-State propaganda?


and the compromised administration
A sitting IAS officer from Kashmir cadre once said that Kashmir bureaucracy is part of freedom struggle. He did not exaggerate.
Kashmiris seem to have raised the insurrection to the level of civil disobedience of sorts drawing analogy from Gandhi’s Satyagraha. Administration chaffs at the orders and decrees of judicial authority. Entrenched but hijacked bureaucracy pokes fun at the instructions and orders of the chief minister. Ideology of separatism has percolated down to the lowest rung of civil service. A mix of benign and malignant lawlessness is the order of the day. No senior officer has the will to take any decision within his competence or any action against a defaulting junior.


and the gross corruption manifest in all sections of public and private life
Dubious elements in Kashmir society assuming the sobriquet of pro-Indian moles are prospering under the munificence of Indian Intelligence agencies. They play the most treacherous role not unknown to their paymasters. Incidentally, these moles have become the big funding source for their masters.


and
The valley press, mostly vernacular, is the virulent anti-India and pro-Islamic media outlet with no holds barred. Many of these publications enjoy Indian patronage and munificence.
The most spectacular scenario is of perfect and masterly demonstration of “victimhood” by the Kashmiris. Anything going by the name of law and order is projected and opposed as anti-Islamic, anti-Kashmiri and sarcastically anti-Gandhi and anti-Vajpayee. The last two names have become iconic with the think-tanks among the seditionists just because both of them were naïve at understanding Kashmiri Muslim mind.

on the Pandits
Valley stands cleansed of its millennia-old Hindu minority. Asking for inquiry into their exodus is considered eternal sin.


tolerance
Police runs for safety and security and in the process explores linkages with seditionists. Valley political leadership is overtly and covertly indoctrinating the youth by projecting Kashmir as an Islamic dispute. Of course, their argument is if India could be divided on the basis of religion why not Kashmir? Sheikh Abdullah became outmoded for contemporary Kashmiris on the day he was removed from power and arrested. He deserved it because he had misled the entire State into a false and disastrous decision. Kashmir is a classical example of a secular and democratic India raising a communalized and radicalized Islamic region in its northern corner. They call it “tolerance of Indian civilization”


advice for the GOI in dealing with the Abdullahs and some questions for Dr Abdullah
Now Dr. Farooq Abdullah talks not of country but of “watan” meaning native land. He sees stone throwers as defenders of their “watan”. But who is providing him Z security and against whom? Who is guarding his father\s grave and against whom?
He won thumping victory in parliamentary election in Srinagar. The vote was given to the Islamic slogan which he raised and not to democratic and secular dispensation.
Farooq and his son Omar both have been demanding resolving Kashmir political issue. New Delhi should respond to him. Talks with him should begin with the question of Pakistan formally declaring integration of Gilgit and Baltistan as Pakistan’s fifth province. This brings sea change in Kashmir question. Is India going to remain content with mere protest and do nothing by way of retaliatory act of Pakistan illegally integrating GB? Who will propose options, Farooq or GOI?
In the first place the question is why the EC could not restrain and even disqualify Farooq for spreading hate India propaganda by invoking Islamic religion of Kashmiris? Secondly, why did the President allow him audience knowing that Farooq was presenting himself as the representative of the Muslims of Kashmir valley and not as a democratic and secular leader of Kashmir? How can these very high authorities succumb to blatant blackmail?
Now Farooq Abdullah has thrown away the mask of a secular-democrat and worn the cloak of a leader of Muslim community of Kashmir, the Government of India must ask him to chalk out the map for resolution of Kashmir tangle. Dr. Farooq must spell out what is in his mind about Jammu region that demands Greater Duggar Desh; about Ladakh that demands Union Territory status; about the Valley that demands separation from India and accession to Pakistan, and finally the Kashmiri Pandits who very justifiably demand Homeland in the valley.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby KrishnaK » 25 Apr 2017 10:01

March 1966 Mizo National Front uprising
During the Government operations to suppress the rebellion, the Indian Air Force carried out airstrikes in Aizawl; this remains the only instance of India carrying out an airstrike in its own civilian territory
Eventually Pu Laldenga who
In the early 1960s, the MNF leaders including Pu Laldenga visited East Pakistan (now Bangladesh), where the Government of Pakistan offered them supply of military hardware and training
became the CM of the state. This must be one of our finest efforts at CI.

It is very unlikely we're going to populate J&K with other Indians and make the much hated KMs a minority in their own land. Often times on this forum, the shrillest shriek is the most nationalist.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby sum » 25 Apr 2017 10:08

Reports say that seditionists have spread a wide network in the valley covering each village and hamlet where a core group of 5 to 8 persons is raised to support the movement in all possible ways by providing intelligence and monitoring movement of security forces. These core groups are also entrusted with the task of motivating the youth to join sedition and subvert administration.
The administrative cadres in almost all districts of the valley are infiltrated and indoctrinated. Government functionaries are subverting administration. All sources of accountability are made defunct and all voices of rationality are stifled,
Religious Imams, local or imported from UP and Bihar pour out anti-India venom during their sermons from the pulpit of mosques and amusingly they are paid monthly stipend or salary of ten thousand rupees a person from the national exchequer. Is there an example in the world where a State pays a certain section of its population to carry anti-State propaganda?
Valley-based opposition leadership is playing its vicious card quiet deftly. So do the ambivalent sections among the ruling class. However, sitting or retired Ministers, legislators and top bureaucrats from the valley are notches more subtle in fomenting anti-India sentiments. A sitting IAS officer from Kashmir cadre once said that Kashmir bureaucracy is part of freedom struggle. He did not exaggerate.

If most of it is true ( and i assume it is), seems like only a thin grasp and brute muscle power is holding on the valley with India but the people are lost to India

Also, one can imagine the situation in Bihar/UP from where these "preachers" are being called in to help the state break away from the country!

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby prahaar » 25 Apr 2017 10:22

KrishnaK wrote:March 1966 Mizo National Front uprising
During the Government operations to suppress the rebellion, the Indian Air Force carried out airstrikes in Aizawl; this remains the only instance of India carrying out an airstrike in its own civilian territory
Eventually Pu Laldenga who
In the early 1960s, the MNF leaders including Pu Laldenga visited East Pakistan (now Bangladesh), where the Government of Pakistan offered them supply of military hardware and training
became the CM of the state. This must be one of our finest efforts at CI.

It is very unlikely we're going to populate J&K with other Indians and make the much hated KMs a minority in their own land. Often times on this forum, the shrillest shriek is the most nationalist.


How many Mizos were made refugees by rebels until now? Facts must not cloud ideology.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby chetak » 25 Apr 2017 16:11

sum wrote:
Reports say that seditionists have spread a wide network in the valley covering each village and hamlet where a core group of 5 to 8 persons is raised to support the movement in all possible ways by providing intelligence and monitoring movement of security forces. These core groups are also entrusted with the task of motivating the youth to join sedition and subvert administration.
The administrative cadres in almost all districts of the valley are infiltrated and indoctrinated. Government functionaries are subverting administration. All sources of accountability are made defunct and all voices of rationality are stifled,
Religious Imams, local or imported from UP and Bihar pour out anti-India venom during their sermons from the pulpit of mosques and amusingly they are paid monthly stipend or salary of ten thousand rupees a person from the national exchequer. Is there an example in the world where a State pays a certain section of its population to carry anti-State propaganda?
Valley-based opposition leadership is playing its vicious card quiet deftly. So do the ambivalent sections among the ruling class. However, sitting or retired Ministers, legislators and top bureaucrats from the valley are notches more subtle in fomenting anti-India sentiments. A sitting IAS officer from Kashmir cadre once said that Kashmir bureaucracy is part of freedom struggle. He did not exaggerate.

If most of it is true ( and i assume it is), seems like only a thin grasp and brute muscle power is holding on the valley with India but the people are lost to India

Also, one can imagine the situation in Bihar/UP from where these "preachers" are being called in to help the state break away from the country!


There is a massive religious traffic of muslim preachers from pak into India and not even 10% as much from India going to pakiland.

I don't know when we will learn to keep our house clean.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby chanakyaa » 25 Apr 2017 16:45

ramana wrote:.... Had BJP gotten a couple of more seats or even NC got them, BJP would have controlled the govt.

For Kashmiri Pandits, at one point one suggestion was made to allow those Pandits and their survivors residing outside of Kashmir to be able to vote going forward for respective wards in the valley for all types of elections starting 2019. Like Non-Resident Kashmiris (NRK). Further that vote would be adjusted by multiplying by a factor greater than one (in reality 3x or 10x) to adjust it to reflect higher Hindu population had they been allowed to live there and prosper over decades. It is a very unusual and constitutionally difficult solution, but so is Artikle 360. It was considered a step towards resettlement. Doubt this idea ever got a traction.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Bhurishravas » 25 Apr 2017 18:05

The govt supports the insurgency against itself. It has the luxury of spending lives of Indian soldiers with little costs. How else can one explain the disproportionately high spending on Kashmir by central govt. If there is no economic activity in the valley the people will migrate. Rather the central govt will keep them there at its own expense to throw stones at security forces.
It is like bribing a bunch of jihaadis to become civilized citizens.
When the parliament is attacked, Indian forces are mobilised. When family members of security forces are murdered, including women and children in kaluchak, nothing happens.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby shravanp » 25 Apr 2017 18:55

I just find it hard to digest that India's neighbors, Pak and China ruthlessly crush their rebels in whichever province it be. While India itself supporting Kashmir valley turning into cesspool, and is ok with it ? I strongly feel that the affairs of Kashmir have stronger influence from external handlers. India is just holding it on by brute force, which is stupidity cuz India is draining it's money.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby CRamS » 25 Apr 2017 19:25

NYT is on a roll with lots of anti-India, anti-Modi propaganda. Latest is by some KM punk full of hate and bile accusing India of all kinds of crimes. But just to note that once a Jihadi, always a Jihadi no matter how educated, I am going to re-produce 2 quotes:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/25/opin ... shmir.html


In the 1990s, a decade bookmarked by massacres, torture, assassinations, extrajudicial murders, exodus of Kashmiri Hindus and the making of mass graves in the mountains, it was almost routine for Indian troops to force civilians into encounter sites.



Note the casualness with which he alludes to the ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Hindus. Can you imagine the horror of horror NYT will face should someone mention holocaust in casual terms? Recall the vilification Trump side-kick Sean whatever received when he casually compared Bashar Assad with Nazis. Yet, this is the kind of narrative that is so entrenched in white minds: Hindus bad, KMs peacefully protesting and being killed.


With the world falling apart, India could perhaps show a light. Not crush Kashmir but solve one of the world’s longest-running conflicts along with Pakistan — even if the relationship between the forever estranged nuclear siblings is at its lowest.



So you get the drift the whole purpose of his wailing in the NYT is that India must somehow hand over Kashmir to his TSP sugar daddies.

Guys, with almost 3 years of ModiJi-led BJP in power, I see too many dark forces out to discredit BJP using among other things Kashmir for sure. I know it will not be pretty watching whites demonize India, but this is no time to pussyfoot in the valley. The rebellion in the valley must be crushed, and crushed with brute force. India should set the bar so high for any talks so that any talks once they take place will be about India relenting on its crushing use of force if the KMs behave themselves like normal human beings. And talks held now will be more about India handing over the valley to KMs and TSP. The bar must be moved several notches so that will not be the equation.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby CRamS » 25 Apr 2017 19:33

shravanp wrote: India is just holding it on by brute force, which is stupidity cuz India is draining it's money.


Not sure what you are hinting at. Are you suggesting India must let go off the valley for the reasons you cite?

Nations do not become strong be relenting under pressure. Yes, there is not a single country in the world that seems what is going in the valley as Islamic fascism that India is up against. Rather, in strange upending of truth, they see India as the aggressor. Under such circumstances the answer is not for India to buckle under pressure. Look what China did in Tibet, and see where China is today. Not that I approve of China's tactics, but I am making a larger point. This is time for India to show its will. Someone posted an interview by BBC's Tim Sebastain with Shashi Tharoor. While he was slavish towards pappu and his mom, his answers on Tim'e Kashmir hectoring were super. He didn't pussy foot around. When India is up a against medival barbaric Islamic terrorist assault sponsored by TSP, and its naive and intellectually dishonest to talk about "human rights". Give me a f!king break.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby chetak » 25 Apr 2017 19:37

All forces are uniting to make grounds to prevent Modi from getting his second term.

With the majority in both the RS and the LS, no telling which way India is headed as far as the taming of jehadi and ej forces are concerned upsetting the deep-laid plans of many countries.

The FCRA MOAB was just the trailer, abhi picture bakhi hai, no??

don't see cashmere in isolation. It's all part of a greater and more sinister agenda. If modi gets his second term and under the conditions outlined, many malevolent, hopes and evil diabolical designs against India will fall by the wayside.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 25 Apr 2017 20:18

The NYT article is a keeper. It shows how Malsi's, specifically KMs, play victim card when they are squarely beaten. How little kids are brought into picture when they cant justify the terror tactics. No mention of the fact that Burhan wani was a sworn terrorist. No mention of the fact that there were significant votings in other parts of state. No mention of why the innocent victim was tied in front of the vehicle. The list goes on.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby shravanp » 25 Apr 2017 20:38

CRamS wrote:
shravanp wrote: India is just holding it on by brute force, which is stupidity cuz India is draining it's money.


Not sure what you are hinting at. Are you suggesting India must let go off the valley for the reasons you cite?


That's incorrect reading. I am alluding to the fact that it's a bad business deal to throw money and not get favorable returns.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby CRamS » 25 Apr 2017 20:44

Arjun, the reason for that kind of a narrative to have taken root is because of the larger game of containing India. Our own elitist traitors have wronged India with pushing this fraud. Unbelievable. Another reason is our Hindu belief that truth triumphs. Perhaps so, but the time scale over which this truism is holds is long. So maybe, if an Islamic caliphate is born in the valley and NY, London, Paris, and Bonn are attacked, then India's truth and travails of what its dealing with TSM and KMs will come out. But in the long term we are all dead anyway so it won't matter. My point being that there is no need to shy away from the truth and tell it like Tharoor lays it out, only do it more aggressively.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 25 Apr 2017 21:01

CRamS, any thought of writing a strong letter to the NY Times about this article, and its grotesque( to put it mildly) slantedness and one sidedness. Or, should we not give the NYT too much energy, tribute and importance by responding to them? Just be aware of what a section of the US establishment is thinking on India. Hmmmm, I would say a moderate toned reply would be appropriate, outlining what India is up against militarily and ideologically. Also important to mention that the problem is with a significant section of the Kashmiri Moslem population, and not a single non-Moslem is supporting the movement. One could bring in Tibet, and contrast what China has done there compared to Indian policy in Kashmir, and openly wonder why there is no major insurgency in Tibet.

But I can easily see the value of ignoring the 'Times as far as replying strongly to their anti-India slant.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby shravanp » 25 Apr 2017 21:42

chetak wrote:All forces are uniting to make grounds to prevent Modi from getting his second term.


saar even though this might seem so, but it's result seems to be contrary. Next obvious steps from Modi will be some strong handed tactic and be carefully timed to arouse nationalistic feeling. Hence for external handlers it stupid to think that they will stop Modi by doing such subversive tactics. They are just providing Modi a long rope, so that he can counter at his favorable time and opportunity.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby sudeepj » 25 Apr 2017 22:05

KrishnaK wrote:March 1966 Mizo National Front uprising
During the Government operations to suppress the rebellion, the Indian Air Force carried out airstrikes in Aizawl; this remains the only instance of India carrying out an airstrike in its own civilian territory
Eventually Pu Laldenga who
In the early 1960s, the MNF leaders including Pu Laldenga visited East Pakistan (now Bangladesh), where the Government of Pakistan offered them supply of military hardware and training
became the CM of the state. This must be one of our finest efforts at CI.

It is very unlikely we're going to populate J&K with other Indians and make the much hated KMs a minority in their own land. Often times on this forum, the shrillest shriek is the most nationalist.


MNF and Laldenga were not tamed before 1971. It took a defenestration of Paki army from Bangladesh to make Laldenga a CM and salute the Indian national flag.

Our problem is, we have not been able to put forward a firm ideological answer to Pakistan. Our answer is instead based in utilitarian terms. "Kashmir should stay with India, because we are a better state/democracy/richer/...". Our answer to the two nation theory itself at an ideological level has been lacking. We oppose the two nation theory, but not the fountainhead that it springs from, namely, Islamic supremacism. As a result, two nation theory stands victorious in many mini-Pakistans within the country. Bangladesh may have ceded from Pakistan, and the state atrocities on hindus may have reduced a bit under Sheikh Hasina, as long as the belief in Islamic supremacism is there, we have not really damaged the two nation theory in any way.

So how does one destroy the TNT which itself is a manifestation of Islamic supremacism?

The answer is to use the state (we dont want lawlessness) to subjugate Islam. This is a classic conflict between the state and the clergy and we must use classic tools to win it.

1. Impose Indian law within households. (Civil Law).
2. Remove Islam from the public sphere. No more flagarant dadhis, burqas, hijab. No more Azaan on loudspeakers.
3. Control the instruction within mosques and madrassas.
4. Control Urdu press.
5. Make an example out of the living symbol of Islamist victories in the subcontinent, i.e. Pakistan and Kashmir.

The little (ideological) Pakistan that we do control, i.e. Kashmir must be made to submit to the state. Which means justice for Ladakhis, Jamwals, and an opportunity for Indians who pay for hum 5 humaray 25 in the valley to live there. Ideologically, we must be on the offensive, and we must take on the ground action guided by that ideological aggression.

An example of such clear thinking, though I dont think we are ready for it yet:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... n-xinjiang

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby CRamS » 25 Apr 2017 22:17

deleted, duplicate
Last edited by CRamS on 25 Apr 2017 22:23, edited 1 time in total.


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