J&K News and Discussion - 2016

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CRamS
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby CRamS » 25 Apr 2017 22:22

Varoon, under the present circumstances, it will be a waste of time. I have been there, done that. The entire discourse in US is about India brutalizing KMs. The entrenched narrative is so lopsided that any amount of our convincing is not going to help. Moreover, for every such nationalist like me wanting to write our side of the story, there are a 100 Pankaj Misra, Adhothi, that half-breed Paki son of Tavlin Singh etc who are willing slaves of whites who will want to get their 15 minutes of fame wanting to write what the whites want to hear. On the elite barometer which shapes SDRE opinion, us nationalists are severely outgunned and out maneuvered.

My own solution is for India to not be coy and hide behind this "largest democracy" and "what others think" crap. Time to go all out and brutal and say yes, we are brutal only because we are dealing with medieval Islamic barbarism. At that point, it will be a dialogue between involving apples vs apples. Right now, TSP and KMs can throw anything at us, and when we react, we are hung by our own petard, namely, you claim to be "world's largest democracy" and crap like that.

So long as India is coy about not being shy of defending its actions, the condescending whites will say you claim you are a democracy, what kind of democracy is this for tying "protesters" to a jeep, firing at teenagers etc. Of course in a dialogue between unequal we cannot say yeah right, don't f!king preach to us, we know about the torture chambers you run worldwide for Muslim suspects, we know your Tomahawk cruise missiles annihilating women and children, we know about your drones etc etc; not to mention Hiroshima and Nagasaki and Vietnam, the list goes on. And you cite the threat of Islamic terror poses or the threat of communism or any number of reasons to justify your actions to contrast between the extreme evil as you see it that you are confronting and you response to containing them. Unfortunately, this narrative cannot be made by us SDREs because the whites talk to us from a position of supreme strength and control. And their hectoring and embarrassing and humiliating India in rags like NYT is part of of their colonial empire designs where they need to pose as the guardians of human rights of Muslims when there is no skin off their back.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby sanjaykumar » 25 Apr 2017 22:28

No need for all that. Christians and Muslims have been tearing at each other's throats for over a millennium. A gentle reminder is sufficient.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ramana » 25 Apr 2017 22:38

CRamS, I suggest you write the rebuttal anyway and will get it published at-least in India. Use GDF to post it for feedback.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 25 Apr 2017 22:39

CRamS wrote:Arjun, the reason for that kind of a narrative to have taken root is because of the larger game of containing India. Our own elitist traitors have wronged India with pushing this fraud. Unbelievable. Another reason is our Hindu belief that truth triumphs. Perhaps so, but the time scale over which this truism is holds is long. So maybe, if an Islamic caliphate is born in the valley and NY, London, Paris, and Bonn are attacked, then India's truth and travails of what its dealing with TSM and KMs will come out. But in the long term we are all dead anyway so it won't matter. My point being that there is no need to shy away from the truth and tell it like Tharoor lays it out, only do it more aggressively.

Completely agreed. We should be more brash than papis....The fact that hina rabbani babe (if one chooses to call her so) bravely bashed mehdi hasan whereas our poor Ram madhav was squarely beaten by him is a case in point. We need good modern day versions of Swami Vivekananda who can give this people in their own currency.
+100 to Ramana saar's suggestion

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ramana » 25 Apr 2017 22:46

Ram Madhav is fighting a real battle not a PR one as the Mehdi guy is.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Vikas » 25 Apr 2017 23:17

Why do we pay so much attention to rags like NYT or HuPo or WSJ . They have lost there relevance as well credibility.
We better focus on SM.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 25 Apr 2017 23:26

ramana wrote:Ram Madhav is fighting a real battle not a PR one as the Mehdi guy is.

cant disagree with your statement Ramana, however, Mehdi guy is aiding the other side in the fight by acting as a force multiplier. As much as we dislike DBUTT/NDTV and MSM we leveraged our media as a force multiplier during kargil. The angst that we are venting here, the fact a lot of people spend more time on BRF than MSM speaks volumes on the need to counter this narrative

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby sanjaykumar » 25 Apr 2017 23:34

A nuanced correction to my post. The ahl-e-kitab have been peacefully at it for over a millennium.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ramana » 26 Apr 2017 00:01

ArjunPandit wrote:
ramana wrote:Ram Madhav is fighting a real battle not a PR one as the Mehdi guy is.

cant disagree with your statement Ramana, however, Mehdi guy is aiding the other side in the fight by acting as a force multiplier. As much as we dislike DBUTT/NDTV and MSM we leveraged our media as a force multiplier during kargil. The angst that we are venting here, the fact a lot of people spend more time on BRF than MSM speaks volumes on the need to counter this narrative



Exactly. We spent close to 20 years honing our knowledge skills but haven't invested in spreading the knowledge.

What is needed is Think Tank 2.0 that has 3As as the guiding principles: Analyze, Advocate, and Action.

Hence I requested CRS to write even a 1000 words rebuttal and will contact publisher friends who are looking for knowledgeable people and are tired of Left wing anti-nationalist/globalist drivel.

These guys masquerade as defense correspondents too!!!

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby CRamS » 26 Apr 2017 00:11

A measure of India's self-imposed impotence is the obsession with "Hindu terror". Now if you yourself lower the bar so abjectly, why will those who want to spite India not use it as a rope to hang India with? Case in point is Sadhvi Pragya or Col. Purohit. I mean the obsession with Congoons and pseudo secularists in holding this on par with the Islamist war imposed on India is mind boggling and breathtaking. These f!king traitors do not any nationalist bone in them, no shame, no self respect, and hide behind "democracy" and "free speech". One idiotic bimbet on whose face I wanted to p!ss on said its is BJP's "hyper nationalism" to call stone pelters in Kashmir as traitors or anti-nationals. If in country the elite opinion is that those opposing the calls for breaking up India are "intolerant", how much more eunuch can the country get. And why would anybody not treat such eunuchs with the contempt they deserve?

Now, look at USA. How many hate-inspired killings of Muslims, Sikhs etc have we seen. How many police encounters with white police officers shoring blacks at point blank range have we seen? Does NYT or any political hack worth his//her name hold these at the same moral equivalence as Al Queda and ISIS? And imagine how anybody like us were to do the same equal equal that NYT does to us Hindus will be laughed at or even worse locked up as terror sympathizers. So they have set the bar very hight. Time for India to go brutal in the valley, and set the bar whereby we say, you stop your violence, and we stop ours. Not this crap about "political solution".

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ramana » 26 Apr 2017 00:44

Correction Its a self imposed obsession of the psecualrs not of India.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ShauryaT » 26 Apr 2017 00:50

SudeepJ: Accurate diagnosis and approach to the issue. India does need to use the state and its coercive powers to achieve its end goals. What is missing is the leadership to achieve the same and act or the leadership is being held back. What is also missing is an elite that can express the above as being in the national interest and at the same time in the interests of all its peoples, including the muslims.

What we should try to do in public forums is to create that space for these coercive measures to be adopted in the name of security. In today's information age, a cultural war is inherent and India needs to respond to protect her cultural zone and avoid another partition or internal turmoil.

All can focus on for the removal of article 370 in the name of security. The non-political elite need to argue for this change and create the space for the politicians to act. Let us all tweet, blog, post on this one topic and justify its removal.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby CRamS » 26 Apr 2017 01:06

RamanaGaru, will do my best. I prefer to talk than write, much easier :-).

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ramana » 26 Apr 2017 01:40

One advice. Keep it short under 2000 words maximum. And throw in a few public domain pictures if germane.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby sudeepj » 26 Apr 2017 01:57

CRamS wrote:RamanaGaru, will do my best. I prefer to talk than write, much easier :-).


Everyone does (including me), but fulminating on a forum is the worst possible use of time. Wider reach is a must and that comes only with articles that set up a proper narrative. Instead of us fulminating on forums, let the Pakis and the Paki loving NYT fulminate, we will write on our own websites. That aught to be the goal.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby CRamS » 26 Apr 2017 02:07

Guys, old timers on this forum, but a while back, maybe at least 7-8 years back, there was one article by an UC Berkeley dude, his name is something Iyer who made some brilliant observations on India TSP Kashmir and how the whites cover it. I still remember how he brilliantly articulated the condescending NYT equal equal theme saying how India and TSP are neighbors, so similar bla bla and yet can't get along. He countered by suggesting how Americans and Russians look so alike or Christians and Jews look so alike or Palestinians and Israelis but how they fight, and the best argument he makes, one always has problems with a neighbor because you share a boundary with them, and there are reasons for clashing, not with someone 10 blocks down the road. Pointing being this condescending crap from whites that India and TSP are neighbors and yet fight. Somehow India's spat with KMs and TSP has no rational basis and stems from blind hatred that "both sides" have for each other. Anyway, does anybody remember that article?

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby sudeepj » 26 Apr 2017 02:13

ShauryaT wrote:SudeepJ: Accurate diagnosis and approach to the issue. India does need to use the state and its coercive powers to achieve its end goals. What is missing is the leadership to achieve the same and act or the leadership is being held back. What is also missing is an elite that can express the above as being in the national interest and at the same time in the interests of all its peoples, including the muslims.



Can not agree more. One problem is our elite all comes from a few incestuous institutions. St Stephens, Xaviers, Columbia, Berkeley, Oxford... at graduate level. Even at lower levels, if one were to map out the high schools and junior colleges elite came from, we would have a fairly small list. But education in these institutions and their ethos was designed not to create empathy in the students for the people of India but an attitude of 'mommy knows best', 'ahistorical fairness' and a general disdain for local/vernacular causes (even if they are life and death for the locals!). That is why all these editors look down on all causes connected to the masses.. Cauvery water dispute, SYL canal, ethnic cleansing of Hindus from Kashmir, Assam, Ayodhya dispute .. these are all attributed to 'petty, obscurantist, bigotry..' as if there are no higher issues at stake here.

In most western papers, an on the ground activist is treated with a great amount of respect, even if there are severe disagreements. In India, a mass leader who can hold unpaid rallies with hundreds of thousands of people participating is dismissed as a rabble-rouser!

The fact that these elites feel so 'disconnected' from the masses is a feature of their education, not a bug. This elite education then leads to utilitarian and materialist ideas that are devoid of any ideological grounding, much like the elite themselves. Take for example, the recent tweet by Zacca Jacob advising Sonu Nigam to leave his house and move if the Azan sound bothered him. In such a mind, as long as the material needs of Kashmiri pandits are 'taken care of' it does not matter that they were chased out of their homes by Islamic supremacism. In such minds, it does not matter if 1/3 of the Indian subcontinent is today under the sway of Islamic supremacism and Hindus ethnically cleansed from those parts, again, out of utilitarian ideas. Further, if dozens of mini-Pakistans flourish inside India, continuing to wink at them is preferable to the state taking them on, again from a utilitarian perspective.

This is the Kashmir thread, and the above is an observation on Indian elite, but it is this attitude in Delhi that has caused the problem of the two nation theory, of which Kashmir is just a symptom, to fester in India for so long.

The problem is Islamic supremacism, and an Indian elite that is disconnected from the ground realities simply does not care about countering this idea, because from a utilitarian perspective, its best to postpone the conflict that will come from taking this idea head on.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 26 Apr 2017 03:42

CRamS,
We should stop this mentality of stopping our violence when your violence stops. With the islamic taqia and the recidivism of violence in malsi behaviour throughout ages, it is essential that we take a PAUSE ONLY AND ONLY WHEN objectives are met. Like palestine/chechenya, this is a wound that will continue to foster. When people stop believing in values e.g. stability/prosperity the end result is like of Palestine/Chechen/Afghanistan, where people who believe have to leave and the place is converted into a living hell. However, like israel or chechenya we need to keep these guys under thumb even when our objectives are met. If this be a 1000 year war then so be it. We should highlight this anywhere and everywhere we can.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby sudeepj » 26 Apr 2017 04:48

Must watch by all BR-ites. This gentleman, Sushil Pandit is an articulate spokesman of the Kashmir and Indian cause. He lays bare the painful and sordid history of Kashmir. No one is spared and its actually very painful viewing, more so for right of center folks like us. Unfortunately, parts of it are in Hindi. Does anyone know how to add subtitles? This is a must watch by all Indians.








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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Cosmo_R » 26 Apr 2017 05:19

All the solutions and responses ^^^ pale in comparison to the obvious: repeal/ignore/make irrelevant article 370. The fallout—domestic and international can be more easily managed than this slow drip. Once removed, 370 opens the way for free movement and ownership and dilution of the jihadi population.

The CPEC stuff, the move to make Gilgit-Baltistan a fifth province are all trigger events.

Prior to NDA 1, all GoIs were terrified of testing nukes: the sky would fall, India would be isolated, destroyed etc. etc. And...?

Kashmir and Naxalism are two sides of the same coin: they cannot be soap operas playing forever. You don't negotiate sovereignty—you grasp it (firmly) and eliminate the enemies of the state.

No naachna gaana,idea of India (theirs) drivel—offensive defense as AKD puts it. Full throated, clean sheet action. Kashmir is a state like any other and the Naxals are bandits to be eliminated.

Not possible? We are different, like this only?, India's way? etc. The dark side will win as it has over us over the course of 2500 years as APJK said.

Non-action is weakness. Weakness is very provocative.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Neshant » 26 Apr 2017 06:27

I agree, scrap 370.

It only promotes separatism, terrorism and division.

There is nothing more "unique" about a people in Kashmir than any other ethnicity in the country.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby chanakyaa » 26 Apr 2017 06:49

If NaMo can pull off a Demonetization on a population of 1bn+ and come out unscathed and successful, tearing apart Article 370 on a population of 1% is doable.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby uddu » 26 Apr 2017 09:12

Here division is not going to help. Repealing article 370 and letting people to settle in J&K is the solution. Division is giving one part directly into the hands of the Jihadis. But above all, we need a response to Pakistan. Pakistan need divided. We must take all those parts that we feel will become part of india in the short to long run and let the rest to rot. And that rotten part also chipped inch by inch in the long run and cleanedup.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby uddu » 26 Apr 2017 09:44

You're talking from a point of losing Kashmir valley. Not a good strategy. So keep it within something that can absorb that. Meaning part of J&K and when the state repeals the article 370. The swing of demographics be it any part of J&K will have its effect on Kashmir valley. Dividing is a short term solution for say another 10 years. Division is a defensive strategy that works for short period of time. Why are you thinking of losing Kashmir rather than take over Baluchistan and POK and handover Lahore to the Sikhs? :) If the Madras regiment can be in Lahore, surely next time, we can liberate areas and send real Pakis packing to Saudi Arabia. and in 100 years whether Our culture spreads to middle east and brings peace from North Korea to Turkey need to be asked.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Prem » 26 Apr 2017 09:56

IMHO,Mission Kashmir will be only after 2019 elections, most probably 2022-23 time period.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Karthik S » 26 Apr 2017 10:44

uddu wrote:Here division is not going to help. Repealing article 370 and letting people to settle in J&K is the solution. Division is giving one part directly into the hands of the Jihadis. But above all, we need a response to Pakistan. Pakistan need divided. We must take all those parts that we feel will become part of india in the short to long run and let the rest to rot. And that rotten part also chipped inch by inch in the long run and cleanedup.



IMO, bifurcating the state into Jammu & Ladakh, and Kashmir is the best solution. You segment the section that's creating trouble, make a ghetto of such people and it can be handled easily. The govt can then work towards development of Jammu and Ladakh without any hindrance.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Karthik S » 26 Apr 2017 10:46

Prem wrote:IMHO,Mission Kashmir will be only after 2019 elections, most probably 2022-23 time period.


SSwamy in an interview to Swarajya said before 2019 Art 370 will go. Let's hope it does.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby uddu » 26 Apr 2017 12:10

Karthik S wrote:
uddu wrote:Here division is not going to help. Repealing article 370 and letting people to settle in J&K is the solution. Division is giving one part directly into the hands of the Jihadis. But above all, we need a response to Pakistan. Pakistan need divided. We must take all those parts that we feel will become part of india in the short to long run and let the rest to rot. And that rotten part also chipped inch by inch in the long run and cleanedup.



IMO, bifurcating the state into Jammu & Ladakh, and Kashmir is the best solution. You segment the section that's creating trouble, make a ghetto of such people and it can be handled easily. The govt can then work towards development of Jammu and Ladakh without any hindrance.


This is correct when India is a Communist regime. In a democratic setup this will not work. The moment you bifurcate, the Jihadis are the govt with no one else having any power there. And how will anyone set foot on the soil when Jihadis are the govt? So widen it up. Also what guarantee that you have that the same Jihadis will not come out of the nest and infect other states? So not a wise decision. It's a very defensive decision. until and unless India is ready to lose this territory also we cannot do that. I think we have pulled back a lot. I'ts time to move westward as much as we can go based on our strength at each point of time. No more withdrawal. First abolish Article 370. Then add more people within the state and slowly and slowly chip away the Kashmir valley from the Jihadis over a period of time. There is no short term solution in such a democratic setup. Across the border go for the kill and eliminate every Paki from the territory which you consider yours..and for the sake of keeping a large section of Population of Jihadis..create a new powerless Pakistan for the Jihadis and take it on at a later date. Best option is to push them out of pre 1947 border and ask all Pak Jihadis to go and settle in Saudi Arabia. Make it free for Indians to move like before 1947.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby A Deshmukh » 26 Apr 2017 14:34

Can our IT folks run a reverse information flood by sending KM SMS and Whatsapp messages -
- sending the truth about how Shias are treated in TSP
- how women are treated.
- water / power issues
- job issues and poverty.
Someone who has access to KM phone numbers.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Avtar Singh » 26 Apr 2017 16:38

Trump likes to do deals to solve problems.
Could this be a clue as to what awaits PM ModiJi when he re-visits usa, usa, usa

http://melaniephillips.com/not-deal-surrender/

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Bart S » 26 Apr 2017 18:49

uddu wrote:
Karthik S wrote:

IMO, bifurcating the state into Jammu & Ladakh, and Kashmir is the best solution. You segment the section that's creating trouble, make a ghetto of such people and it can be handled easily. The govt can then work towards development of Jammu and Ladakh without any hindrance.


This is correct when India is a Communist regime. In a democratic setup this will not work. The moment you bifurcate, the Jihadis are the govt with no one else having any power there. And how will anyone set foot on the soil when Jihadis are the govt? So widen it up. Also what guarantee that you have that the same Jihadis will not come out of the nest and infect other states? So not a wise decision. It's a very defensive decision. until and unless India is ready to lose this territory also we cannot do that. I think we have pulled back a lot. I'ts time to move westward as much as we can go based on our strength at each point of time. No more withdrawal. First abolish Article 370. Then add more people within the state and slowly and slowly chip away the Kashmir valley from the Jihadis over a period of time. There is no short term solution in such a democratic setup. Across the border go for the kill and eliminate every Paki from the territory which you consider yours..and for the sake of keeping a large section of Population of Jihadis..create a new powerless Pakistan for the Jihadis and take it on at a later date. Best option is to push them out of pre 1947 border and ask all Pak Jihadis to go and settle in Saudi Arabia. Make it free for Indians to move like before 1947.


No, the way to go about it would be to make Ladakh and Jammu and perhaps North Kashmir as regular states with normal democratic governments and no Article 370. The valley would have to be governed by the central government till the radicalism is gone or the demographics have been altered by settling people from the rest of the country or the jihadis have been pushed across the border to join their Pakroach brethren. At the moment the valley is eating up a disproportionate share of the budget and mindshare to the detriment of the other regions. Irrespective of separatism, that isn't fair in the first place to people outside the valley.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby ShauryaT » 26 Apr 2017 19:24

Bart S wrote:No, the way to go about it would be to make Ladakh and Jammu and perhaps North Kashmir as regular states with normal democratic governments and no Article 370. The valley would have to be governed by the central government till the radicalism is gone or the demographics have been altered by settling people from the rest of the country or the jihadis have been pushed across the border to join their Pakroach brethren. At the moment the valley is eating up a disproportionate share of the budget and mindshare to the detriment of the other regions. Irrespective of separatism, that isn't fair in the first place to people outside the valley.
Even at a practical level, changing the demographics of the whole state is easier than changing it just in the valley. The start has to be made from changing the demographics of Rajouri and Doda, the muslim dominated districts of Jammu. The valley is 98% muslim the whole state is at 67%. Quite frankly a similar exercise needs to undertaken in Rampur, UP and Mallapuram, Kerala and some of the border districts of Bengal and Dongri, Mumbai. The question is what will it take for the Hindu led state to compel muslims to move and then equally important "accept" muslims within their communities? This is the heart of 2NT. Destroy this separate community/ghetto business and you have put a dagger into 2NT.

Cannot have it both ways that we will not integrate but cry foul anyways. Some of these "solutions" proposed sound like a pre-cursor to a partition and then there will be some advice by some that it is better to hive off a cancerous limb, lest it damage the body. Hope this board rejects ANY notion of initial steps to a partition. Repeal article 370 should be the focus. Hope the state uses its powers to achieve integration based on a common cultural basis.

What is needed in the muslim community is the ability to separate the Koran from the Hadiths to allow a reinterpretation and reformation. Just like we Hindus reject parts of manu smriti as being irrelevant today, muslims have to make part of their scriptures irrelevant today. If Mohammed accepted the idea that there were past prophets, accepting the idea that there are future prophets too should not be a stretch, sorry i am going OT from topic here. But so many streams are connected and have multiple facets.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby sudeepj » 26 Apr 2017 20:57

1. Pakistan must be destabilized using MQM, Sindhis, Baloch and Pashtun to stop its interference. A short border war that destroys Pak army capability is a possibility but 4G efforts are more desirable and lower cost.
2. 370 and article 35(A) must go. Even the Supreme Court can do it by pronouncing these as being 'against the basic structure of the constitution'. This will indicate that the govt. is serious about solving it taking an ideological approach, not a utilitarian approach.
3. Next, there must be a Kashmiri Pandit enclave in the valley. These people must be offered jobs in the police and the state govt. and have army protection. Without having them there, India loses its argument that an Islamist takeover of the valley can cause grave harm to the minorities there. An Islamist takeover will still be bad for muslims, but the world sometimes gets in a mood to say, 'they are muslims, what do we care.. if they want to cut their own throats, so be it'.
4. There must be a Pandit, Buddhist and Shia coalition politically to fight the Sunnis. No other way around it.
5. Madrassas **must** be controlled. Every Madrassa must have a Central govt. monitor to ensure that its not preaching hatred.
6. Every seperatist Kashmiri Muslim family should be give the choice they gave to the Pandits. Raliv (assimilate), Galiv (die) ya Chaliv (move).

A boil is lanced only when it ripens and its full of pus. I have full trust in the current GoI to take the right action when the push comes to the shove, and perhaps that is their strategy. To let Indians and the world see this pustule called Kashmir and let India do the needed surgery.

Karthik S
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Karthik S » 26 Apr 2017 21:01

SriJoy wrote:^
Ya, repealing of 370 is step #1. I simply feel that by breaking Kashmir into 4 parts ( part 1: Kashmir valley, part 2: Jammu, part 3: Ladakh, part 4: Pakistan occupied Gilgit-Baltitstan), we put an end to long-term issue of Kashmiri separatism. I fear not the Malsis taking Kashmir away from us, i fear a Scottish type 'we are different' referendum, 100+ years in the future, when (hopefully) India is a 1st world nation and nationalism is at a low, with regionalism at a high. That, IMO, is when a 'unified Kashmiri identity' is the most dangerous. Division will also generate significant competition between Jammu and Kashmir, as Banihal pass is the major pass to connect Kashmir to Jammu and rest of India.


I don't think we'll get to 1st world nation status without finding a permanent fix to all these issues. Bifurcating has its advantages. How about stopping rohingyas from settling in Jammu? How about existing disease spreading to Jammu and Ladakh? You bifurcate the state to isolate the problem. It will be far easier to control when they are segregated than when heterogeneous. IMO, J and L can be developed well without K being a hindrance.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby sudeepj » 26 Apr 2017 21:05

SriJoy wrote:^
Ya, repealing of 370 is step #1. I simply feel that by breaking Kashmir into 4 parts ( part 1: Kashmir valley, part 2: Jammu, part 3: Ladakh, part 4: Pakistan occupied Gilgit-Baltitstan), we put an end to long-term issue of Kashmiri separatism. I fear not the Malsis taking Kashmir away from us, i fear a Scottish type 'we are different' referendum, 100+ years in the future, when (hopefully) India is a 1st world nation and nationalism is at a low, with regionalism at a high. That, IMO, is when a 'unified Kashmiri identity' is the most dangerous. Division will also generate significant competition between Jammu and Kashmir, as Banihal pass is the major pass to connect Kashmir to Jammu and rest of India.


Breaking Kashmir up and separating the valley will lead to a Gaza like situation. A perpetual conflict blackhole. Its better to have 6 Pandit enclaves within, one in each district, which can expand outwards to accommodate well armed Biharis, Bhaiyyas, Jats, Reddys and Sardar jis to move there. The natural difference in proclivities will take care of the rest.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby sudeepj » 26 Apr 2017 21:08

Karthik S wrote:
SriJoy wrote:^
Ya, repealing of 370 is step #1. I simply feel that by breaking Kashmir into 4 parts ( part 1: Kashmir valley, part 2: Jammu, part 3: Ladakh, part 4: Pakistan occupied Gilgit-Baltitstan), we put an end to long-term issue of Kashmiri separatism. I fear not the Malsis taking Kashmir away from us, i fear a Scottish type 'we are different' referendum, 100+ years in the future, when (hopefully) India is a 1st world nation and nationalism is at a low, with regionalism at a high. That, IMO, is when a 'unified Kashmiri identity' is the most dangerous. Division will also generate significant competition between Jammu and Kashmir, as Banihal pass is the major pass to connect Kashmir to Jammu and rest of India.


I don't think we'll get to 1st world nation status without finding a permanent fix to all these issues. Bifurcating has its advantages. How about stopping rohingyas from settling in Jammu? How about existing disease spreading to Jammu and Ladakh? You bifurcate the state to isolate the problem. It will be far easier to control when they are segregated than when heterogeneous. IMO, J and L can be developed well without K being a hindrance.


The separation can be done without making them different states. Make Jammu and Ladakh Kashmirs within Kashmir with their own 370 or 35(A) type provisions to safeguard their autonomy.

sudeepj
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby sudeepj » 26 Apr 2017 21:09

2014 Narendra Modi on Kashmir and Farouq Abdullah the fat ********.

A Deshmukh
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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby A Deshmukh » 26 Apr 2017 21:54

imo:
stop border trade. they should be forced to do business with mainstream India only.
stop grants/funding.
squeeze KM financially.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby Marten » 26 Apr 2017 23:27

+1
A financial blockade has not been done yet. Why? What are the doles being given out to JK? Why should 370 be sacrosanct?

The choice is between forgoing the valley vs. changing the demographics by allowing Hindus back into Jammu, Leh etc. to balance out the situation.
There is no choice until we manage the overall demographics. That should be option 1. After that, all other trifurcations etc. can also enable demographic changes since folks will be moving intra state. This expectation of the average KM turning into a peacenik is the real problem.

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Re: J&K News and Discussion - 2016

Postby A Deshmukh » 26 Apr 2017 23:31

art 370 requires RS support / majority. might get tricky. also I believe it requires JK assembly approval, which is more difficult.

without major changes - just do silent financial squeeze, and majority of KM will fall in line.


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