Psy-Ops techniques employed to sucker Indians

[shiv]

Psy Ops is simply a name for techniques that thousands of leaders have employed over thousands of years to mould public opinion and create support or dissent for specific political goals. It is too broad a subject for one thread and while I can recognise how psy-ops has been used in various times in history, I would probably have to do a PhD thesis to start researching is role in history. It is happening all the time.

I am simply going to stick to a few examples of how the ISI/D-Company combine have used,or can use psy ops against Indians. The important thing to note is that many psy-ops games are "counter intuitive". This means that when your intuition or gut feeling tells you something, psy ops uses your gut feeling to achieve the opposite effect.

Let me use a simple example which we all encounter.

Muslims don't like pigs. A Muslim would never bring a pig into a mosque. Therefore is the head of a slaughtered pig is thrown into a mosque overnight it cannot be a Muslims who has done it. It must have been an enemy of Islam and Muslims.

Even a half-wit intel operative would use this technique to spark Hindu-Muslim tension in a "sensitive area"

Another technique is

Hindus worship cows. No Hindu would slaughter a cow. A person seen slaughtering a cow or seen dealing with a slaughtered cow cannot be Hindu. Militant Hindus would forcibly intervene against anyone slaughtering cows or dealing with dead cows.

In intel operative with an IQ of just 90 would pay goons to get drunk and beat up some people who are skinning cows. Those drunks would then be called "Hindutva activists" and the act described as "Hindu terror". Ensuring that the people who were beaten up included at least one Muslim or one dalit would be a no-brainer in planning this act.

If I were a local level BJP planner - I would get my people to attend Rahul Gandhi meetings and then ask them to carry away khats. I would also pay goons to beat up those carrying away khats and blame it on the Congress. Shame on any party operative who cannot arrange something as simple as this

The following idea is based on news I read in Twitter today where a group of alleged "Bajrang Dal" activists allegedly installed a 2 foot Ganapati statue on defence land as a prelude to building a temple. This was thwarted by the Army and local poice

Now If I were ISI and cooperated with D company, I would hire Hindu goons to call themelves "Bajrang Dal" and ceremoniously (with hired priest, pandal and loudseakers) arrange the installation of an expensive large Ganapati idol of defence land, knowing that the army will react and claim its land. I would then get my puppet "Bajrang Dal" goons to protest and say that India army is Islam pasand and against Hindus and spark anti-army sentiment among Hindus.

I start this thread as a playing ground for documenting acts of twisted minds and as a warning. Will post more in due course

[partha]

Typical strategy of resident non Indians since May 2014:

Pick up some stray incidents and hype it to the hilt for days together blaming it on Hindutva/Modi/Sangh crying minority persecution.
In the following days, link any non related incident to the above incident.

For example, at some point, intolerance was the agenda. Even a bad movie (I think one of SRK's movie) flopping was linked to intolerance and was called economic terrorism or something like that. Another example is the ongoing so called cow vigilantism. In a country of 1.25 billion there has been hardly 5 or 6 reports of illegal cow transporters being beaten up but every incident where a Hindu-Muslim is involved is being projected as a case of cow vigilantism. Case in the point is the recent rape case where one "intellectual" falsely claimed the girls were raped for eating beef and it was promptly echoed by the usual suspects in media and libtard circles.

The problem is majority of the people fall for such propaganda and hardly follow up on the case. Even BBC reported it but I didn't see a clarification report in BBC when it was proven false. Damage had been done. Another incident that comes to mind is when Rajdeep Sardesai first claimed being physically assaulted by a Modi supporter in Madison Sq Garden all Modi supporters were shown in bad light. I remember a colleague of mine telling a gora about this incident. He probably was not aware of the later developments where a video surfaced which clearly showed it was Sardesai who first physically assaulted the said Modi supporter.

[shiv]

One important thing to understand is that when you have any group of people (a society is a group of people) you will have individuals who have different opinions on some issues. If you look at these opinions closely you find that there will be a few who have opinions far off to one extreme. Others will have opinions that are exactly the opposite. This is true everywhere. For example one may have people who say "All thieves must be beaten to death". The opposite extreme might be "Perhaps they were needy. Let them off with a warning".

It is because of the recognition of polar opposites in human viewpoints that we get expressions like "Right Wing" and "Left wing", or "liberal" and "conservative" or Islamist and moderate, communal and secular etc. They are just words to indicate, classify and sometimes accuse people of having views opposed to someone else in their own society.

If I put myself in the position of an ISI operative in Pakistan, which people in India would be "useful" for me.

Obviously people who think Muslims are being victimized in India would be people who I could make my allies - if I could reach out to them host them, look after them with love as guests and "make my case" as a person who is "pained" by all the hatred of Muslims in India. As part of this I would use a two pronged approach. I would hire goons to throw a pigs head into a mosque and complain about the hatred of Muslims. I would also fund goons to act as Hindu extremist groups and provoke anger and anxiety about how Muslims are gaining ground in India and make them indulge in violent "Hindu terror" acts. Contrary to what intuition may tell you - ISI has to fund extreme Hindutva and it also has to fund people who are calling for peace. This is effective psy-war that Pakistan (probably with earlier CIA expertise) has fought and fought well in India.

As an ISI operative I would realize that there are Pakistanis who blame the Pakistani army. Eliminating them is a mistake. They are useful idiots. They can be funded and kept happy as they appear to outsiders as a "liberal Pakistani elite". "Liberal Indian elite" are invited and hosted by Pakistan by these "useful idiot" liberal Paki elite. No expense is spared. Lavish parties. Enchanting tours, loving hospitality and the mandatory Pakistani shopkeepers who say "If youa are Indian you don't need to pay the bill for this item. Take it, its free". Every India comes back with this experience of Pakistan. The Pakistani elite complain in private to the Indian elite about their army and the Indian elite agree that "People want friendship, it is our army and leadership that are belligerent and do not want peace".

Nothing could be further from the truth. Indians have been suckered outright and there is no easy way to make our peacenik KandleKissers realize this. Cognitive dissonance will kick in if you tell them they have been made jackasses of and they go into denial.

[shiv]

Enjoy:
https://twitter.com/JantaKaReporter/sta ... 2701900800

Muslim man beaten up by gau-rakshaks in Gujarat dies

Beating up Muslims and Dalits in the name of Gau raksha is a beautifully simple tactic to sucker Hindus

[nandakumar]

Just like suicide bombers shout allhu akbar and pull the pin on their suicide vests do these people shout gau mata ki jai before they unzip their flies or raise a stick to beat the victim?

[shiv]

Just like suicide bombers shout allhu akbar and pull the pin on their suicide vests do these people shout gau mata ki jai before they unzip their flies or raise a stick to beat the victim?

Interesting point. Maybe they do that - but we don't hear it in the reports. But it is the ambiguity of the whole thing that makes this such an attractive thing to do for a local level political operative.

However the point I am trying to make is that things need not always be what they seem. I don't want to dwell on gau raksha alone but I have not heard a single report that has not blamed Hindus, Hindutva. Modi, RSS for incidents related to gau raksha. Gau raksha is a deliciously attractive stick to beat Hindus with and the Indian opposition - Congi and leftists would be stupid not to let this opportunity pass.

We have a public and media who are pathetically underinformed about how government and the law work so a lot of games can be played or stupid mistakes made and encouraged.

For example on Twitter - media personalities who have a history of targeting the incumbent national government and/or their supporters made the following comments.

Barkha Dutt said this: https://twitter.com/BDUTT/status/775428028092604417

Compare public reaction to 'Bus Burners' in Bangalore ( Before that arsonists in Haryana) to 'Stone Pelters' in Kashmir. Tells you something

This is a statement of innuendo where she is suggesting that the "public reaction" to the stone throwers in Kashmir should have been the same as that of the public reaction to people who burnt buses. What is missing is her own reaction on TV and the manner in which she was continuously highlighting the miseries and injuries of Kashmiri stone throwers with no mention of the fact that they were breaking the law - there was a curfew in place and security men were doing their job. That cannot be compared with a bus burning riot that stopped as soon as security forces imposed a curfew. No stone throwing or bus burning after that . Curfew and shoot at sight orders are imposed they are imposed to restore public order. That was achieved in Bengaluru, but in Kashmir curfew was deliberately broken to challenge security forces and create martyrs - whom Barkha Dutt promptly reported as victims of excesses. The comparison was unfair innuendo - but is is a form of psy-ops - to smear one party and sympathize with another. If Barkha Dutt goes as a visitor to Pakistan she will surely be given royal treatment - because the ISI will deliberately cultivate these people - and she, being a powerful TV personality will hesitate to say anything negative about Pakistan - choosing instead to blame security forces or the government.

Then there was Shekhar Gupta who Tweeted asking if Pellet Guns were going to be used in Bengaluru. What he was doing was just like Barkha Dutt. Without prompting he was drawing a parallel between a riot in Bengaluru and violence in Kashmir introducing the innuendo that Bengaluru people are probably not going to get shot by pellet guns but the security forces are deliberately dealing with Kashmiris in a different way - by shooting them with pellet guns for the same crime of violence. Our public are naive enough to fall for this. Once again - the bus burning was before security forces brought violence under control. But in Kashmir the protesters are deliberately breaking the law and violating a curfew order. Getting shot is the normal consequence of that.

There is another issue that is coming up that shows public ignorance of the law - and that is accusing the Supreme court of mollycoddling Muslims by not entertaining a petition against goat slaughter while making a judgement on jalikattu. The supreme court has to act within the written laws and the written law is that there are certain practices that are classified under "essential religious practices". Goat slaughter on BakrId is one of them and the court cannot interfere with it. It would be incumbent upon lawyers fighting for the continuation of jalikattu to show that it is an "essential Hindu religious practice".

[rgosain]

Shiv thanks for starting this topic. There is a degree of learned helplessness, stockholm syndrome and inferiority complex amongst many within the intellectual circles.
A lot of indians are literally hypnotised, mesmerised or suckered by certain English terms. One of these is:

Introspect/Introspection: Examine one's own thoughts or feelings. OED

Now very few native English speakers or writers use this term, as it tends to have deep psychological or philosophical elements, but it is among the Indian press and pseudo-academics where it comes to the be used very often, as a term for shutting down any cogent discussion or rebuttal. For example Indians are often asked to 'introspect' which really translates to know your place, and don't get ideas above your station.. Consider the following editorials and comments taken from the media:

a) Italian marines in 2012 shoot up a fishing boat and kill fishermen off the coast. Response: Indians are asked to introspect, and not to protect their coastline

b) An Indian diplomat is arrested and humilaiated by Preet Brahara: response: Indian diplomats must introspect and not rock the boat
c) A boatload of anti-piracy guards are arrested: response :Indians must introspect and pray for the guards.
d) China black-balls India at the NSG: response Indians must know their place and introspect

The word Introspect in the Indian context is used to condescend and to prevent any action that would be beneficial.

[nandakumar]

Shiv
You make a very good point and as usual, in your inimitable style. As for journalists in the equation this is my understanding. For some, their ideological proclivities make them see things in a warped way (why no pellet guns for bus burners). But for most others it is just an easy way to make the headlines. A guy raping a woman or a fight between two men even if one of them is a dalit just doesn't cut it with modern day news editors. These days even newspaers have gone the corporate way with performance appraisals and rating points for stories and so on. So the temptation is to see a gau rakshak in the mix. And if you can come up with it, why you have the ultimate ecstasy for a journalist- the top of front page or the lead story in the nine o'clock news bulletin. It could even be a case of the journalist hearing from somebody who says that he heard it mentioned that some one had seen the attacker wearing a saffron turban some time ago. So there you have it- a gau rakshak in the full regalia of his uniform.

[shiv]

Shiv thanks for starting this topic. There is a degree of learned helplessness, stockholm syndrome and inferiority complex amongst many within the intellectual circles.
A lot of indians are literally hypnotised, mesmerised or suckered by certain English terms. One of these is:

Introspect/Introspection: Examine one's own thoughts or feelings. OED

Now very few native English speakers or writers use this term, as it tends to have deep psychological or philosophical elements, but it is among the Indian press and pseudo-academics where it comes to the be used very often, as a term for shutting down any cogent discussion or rebuttal. For example Indians are often asked to 'introspect' which really translates to know your place, and don't get ideas above your station.. Consider the following editorials and comments taken from the media:

a) Italian marines in 2012 shoot up a fishing boat and kill fishermen off the coast. Response: Indians are asked to introspect, and not to protect their coastline or fishermen.

b) An Indian diplomat is arrested and humilaiated by Preet Brahara: response: Indian diplomats must introspect and not rock the boat
c) A boatload of anti-piracy guards are arrested: response :Indians must introspect and pray for the guards.
d) China black-balls India at the NSG: response Indians must know their place and introspect

The word Introspect in the Indian context is used to condescend and to prevent any action that would be beneficial.

Hah! Good to hear a completely independent assessment of that word. I have, on a few occasions on Twitter pointed out to people who have asked Pakistan to introspect that Pakis ain't gonna introspect. But your point is fascinating because it adds a new layer of meaning to what I had in my minds.

I had always looked Indians asking for introspection as a very Hindu thing which is summed up best by a couple of lines from the Bolywood song from "Guddi" - "Hum ko mann ki shakti dena"

The lines are (I copy paste)

दूसरों की जय से पहले, खुद को जय करे

or

"Conquer yourself before trying to conquer others"

This requires introspection and Indians are stuck in a cycle of introspection about themselves like a program that loops on itself or a scratched record. But your point about asking others to introspect is valid because there is a naive (Indian) assumption that every human is grounded with the basics qualities of right and wrong as we see them (typically dharma values - truthfullness, sanctity of all life including prevention of cruelty to animals etc). There is a huge cognitive bias in imaging that "The other guy surely thinks like I do and if he introspects he will see the logic exactly the way I see it'

This Indian tendency may well be related to several millennia of not having to face invasions from people who are brought up with ideas so different from our own that Indians stiil don't understand what hit them. Typically Abrahamics from outside India (or those who grow up in a non Indian environment) have no foundational training in the values of introspection. In fact in the religions Islam and Christianity, introspection has already been done for the aam Abdul and he already knows that those who don't agree with his world view are wrong. No introspection required. Nothing to look inside. Nothing to discover. It's all there in the book.

[TSJones]

c) A boatload of anti-piracy guards are arrested: response :Indians must introspect and pray for the guards.

actually this was a bigoted psy-ops campaign by India. It was announced as Americans being arrested when the anti-pirates requested to purchase fuel for their ship in an Indian port and came within Indian waters.

the slobbering shouts of glee was similar to Pavlov's canines at the prospect of jailing 10-15 Americans. psy-ops, indeed.

Alas, it was not to be because they were only east Europeans. from the captain right down to the lowliest deck hand. all. not. American.

the ship was owned by an American which would have to suffice for the deeply disappointed introspective Indians.

the captain of the ship attempted suicide while in Indian jail thus showing the failings of his Abrahamic (prolly Catholic) faith.

[rgosain]

TSJ you seem to have got the wrong end of the stick here. India is compelled to look at private US security vessels, even if they are crewed by non-US staff in light of the David Headley affair. You remember him. If not you are being deliberately obtuse

[TSJones]

David Headly had nothing to do with US registered vessels.

He went to India as a US tourist, did his dirty Pakistani jihad work while masquerading as a US tourist.

Justice somehow, someway, will come to the filthy jihadi henchman.

I refuse to believe this POS will be allowed to walk around free in the US while being a jihadi goon.

he is 56 years old and has another 30 years in prison to serve. hopefully he will die there.

[panduranghari]

This Indian tendency may well be related to several millennia of not having to face invasions from people who are brought up with ideas so different from our own that Indians stiil don't understand what hit them.

Beautifully put.

Another psy-ops technique is regurgitated by the 'Intellectual Yet Idiot'(as defined by Taleb) of Dalal Street is you have to make your money work for you. Those multi-level marketing events, if you have attended one, will always a have a story about the founder of McDonalds, Ray Croc. The sucker trying to get a greater fool to buy into his scheme will say- what business is Ray Croc in? The greater fool will say- fast food. The sucker (who himself was a greater fool sometime back) will with a bit of scorn and hint of derision will say no. Ray Croc is in real estate business. Needless to say the sucker is wrong. Because the premises where McDonalds is based is not directly owned by Ray Croc or even McDonalds. But then who would question these IYI's?

On those lines, we had the great Raghuram Rajan who eats, breathes Keynesian policy tells the government why don't we implement the Gold Monetization Scheme? Gold is just a tradition, its got no place in modern monetary mechanisms says Ben Bernanke and Rajan regurgitates this and tells us to put that gold to use. What use is the gold lying IDLE in the locker or around the necks/wrists of Indian women? Put it to use, earn a return on it like you get when you put money in the bank. How many know putting money in the bank, makes you the creditor of the bank. The deposit is not yours until you withdraw those funds in cash. And who knows if they will pay out in the SHTF scenario.

As the wheels of the world economy come off and as Rajans old paymasters, the IMF, start talking about SDR as a new international reserve, they would have so dearly wanted all that IDLE Indian gold to keep the current system going a bit long. Thankfully, that plan did not work out.

We were almost suckered into doing something idiotic, using the western psy-ops.

[JayS]

Introspect/Introspection: Examine one's own thoughts or feelings. OED

The lines are (I copy paste)

दूसरों की जय से पहले, खुद को जय करे

or

"Conquer yourself before trying to conquer others"

It reminds me a thing from past. Whenever any guests would come home my mom would ask me to adjust n compromise on my things so that the guests be given preference and be kept as much happy as possible. When we used to go to some relatives as guests, then also she would tell me to compromise and be least intrusive and demanding so that the host should not be troubled. As a kid, I would ask when the hell then I get preference???

What does this tell you?? This is a tendency I have seen in many dharmik desi people. Ans I see this as a part of equation why we give a lot of importance to others i.e. outsiders and what they think, do or say.

[shiv]

It reminds me a thing from past. Whenever any guests would come home my mom would ask me to adjust n compromise on my things so that the guests be given preference and be kept as much happy as possible. When we used to go to some relatives as guests, then also she would tell me to compromise and be least intrusive and demanding so that the host should not be troubled. As a kid, I would ask when the hell then I get preference???

What does this tell you?? This is a tendency I have seen in many dharmik desi people. Ans I see this as a part of equation why we give a lot of importance to others i.e. outsiders and what they think, do or say.

Looking internally is a very Indian thing and it certainly results in some unique social consequences. Indians have been bringing up children to look internally for so many thousands of years that it is almost in our genes. It results in interesting social consequences - especially a phenomenon that has been remarked upon by many - that is areas of Indian cities, towns and villages that are secure and law abiding despite the near-absence of police.

Indian "inward thinking" has never been empty of aims - it prompts one to judge what is right and wrong for others based on what is right and wrong for oneself. One significant consequence of the "ideal" of searching within oneself is that the idea of forcing one's own beliefs on others, or even using violence to make a point on someone else except for self protection comes out looking as unnecessary because it is expected that the other guy too is looking inside himself and has found answers which can be discussed in debate.

This mental attitude is suicidal when faced with an ideology that does not require any thought. Thoughts have already been thunk by others and put down in a rule book. All you need to do is follow the rule book. One of the reasons why people find India to be anarchic is because no one sees "rule books" as the ultimate source of wisdom that trumps self examination and eternal truths of dharma. What Indians forget is that having a constitution and a "rule book" of laws is essential for self protection of a nation in a world where everyone has retreated into his own "nation". The Indian concept of "vasudaiva kutumbakam" has been chopped up into multiple cake-slices called "nation states" each of whom claim superiority, moral ascendancy and unique laws that exclude others.

Ironically the Indian "Right wing/sanghis" are as confused and clueless in this "hybrid" environment as the "sickular libtards."

When it comes to killing jihadis - what is required is "following the rule book" of the Indian nation, not introspection and self examination. When RW/Sanghis demand application of the rulebook in dealing with Paki sponsored jihadis - it is the libtards who are calling for introspection. But when libtards call for the application of the rule book in allowing goat slaughter for Bakr Id it is the RW sanghis who are calling for introspection and the application of dharmic principles.

[JayS]

^^ Fully agree with what you are saying. Our philosophy has always put a lot of emphasize on understanding yourself to understand the universe, look inwards, conquer yourself etc etc. I have argued with many dharmik and libtards over this that how this is alright when everyone is doing this. But this necessarily introduces some kind of passivity in the system. When your neighbour is hell bent on killing you, introspection does not help. Precisely because of this, when we have Arjun complementing over killing his own relatives, we have Krishna to make him understand that it needs to be done. The way I see it is, we have a balanced system where if the first and foremost importance is given to the virtue of knowledge and wisdom, the second in line is Kshatriya Dharma which ensures that our way of life be preserved. Sadly we lost this one. As the Kshatriya dhrma was eroded, we became more and more vulnerable and ultimately total slaves under brishit rule.

Today this tendency to introspect has become a bane for us where we are contemplating everything we are doing but we do not question worse things from others because perhaps we think its none of our business. There are countless Hindus who vehemently oppose animal sacrifice to some local deity in some small community but tend to discount large scale sacrifice on Eid (And I am not even talking about libtards). It is truth that we are not raised to follow rule books and we are free to question anything and everything. Anyone can accept or discard any belief and still be a Hindu. Its not very difficult to find pakka religious, agnostic and atheist persons in same family, but all of them be happy Hindus. We are not raised to blindly follow something. And its one of the biggest strength of our civilization. But the passivity that comes with this is suicidal and to balance this Kshatriya dharma is defined. We need to revive the system in its entirety to make it work properly.

Everytime some outsider comes and points a finger at us, we sit down and introspect what wrong we are doing. And the outsiders have exploited this to the fullest.

Have you ever noticed this in past - a couple of decades ago perhaps - if some outsider comes complaining about a kid, the kids parents would slap the kid first and ask why he did it rather than first trying to figure out if that outsider is even telling truth or not. In general more trust would be shown on outsider than one of your own family member. I have seen it many many times. If you have noticed it in past, you would know what I mean. Do we see some kind of lack of trust in our own people??

[symontk]

Gaurakshaks themselves have told what they are doing. is that also part of making Indians suckrs

[shiv]

Gaurakshaks themselves have told what they are doing. is that also part of making Indians suckrs

In other words you are saying that they are honest people who admit to crimes because the don't want to tell lies. Talk about suckering people...

[symontk]

Yes that is possible, Gauraskhaks are telling lies, but why, they would have told lies like this malayalee gentleman, Keeleri Achu. You can follow if you know malayalam

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0CqPBnEslg

Poor fellow, someone fell over his knife and died, he was jail for some time and the scene shows his come back. He is now threatening people since they are afraid. May be Gaurakshaks also think that way, isn't that possible?

Yes for suckering Indians

[shiv]

Earlier I wrote:

As an ISI operative I would realize that there are Pakistanis who blame the Pakistani army. Eliminating them is a mistake. They are useful idiots. They can be funded and kept happy as they appear to outsiders as a "liberal Pakistani elite". "Liberal Indian elite" are invited and hosted by Pakistan by these "useful idiot" liberal Paki elite. No expense is spared. Lavish parties. Enchanting tours, loving hospitality and the mandatory Pakistani shopkeepers who say "If youa are Indian you don't need to pay the bill for this item. Take it, its free". Every India comes back with this experience of Pakistan. The Pakistani elite complain in private to the Indian elite about their army and the Indian elite agree that "People want friendship, it is our army and leadership that are belligerent and do not want peace".

Nothing could be further from the truth. Indians have been suckered outright and there is no easy way to make our peacenik KandleKissers realize this. Cognitive dissonance will kick in if you tell them they have been made jackasses of and they go into denial.

And today we have:

To counter your enemies first identify who they are both inside and outside the country.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/analysis/ ... VRd3J.html

Uri is indeed different because it comes at a time when hopes of better relations between Pakistan and India have already derailed. Doubling down repression in Kashmir, and the baiting of Pakistan during Modi’s August 15 speech means no détente was intended or scheduled.

As the UN General Assembly gets underway this coming week, the world was preparing to be treated to the ungainly spectacle of the two countries trading barbs with each other both inside the General Assembly hall, and outside it.

The Uri attack does not change that – it makes it much worse. Warmongers in both countries want war. They were denied their bloodlust after Pathankot. It may take some very special leadership to deny them again. Can we be sure that Messrs Modi and Sharif will provide it?

[symontk]

But do we know the reasons why GoI didn't go for war in earlier instances? If you know that and if that is not because of cowardice, then the answers for those need to be found out. May be there is a genuine reason why GoI doesnt want a war with Pakistan

It may that we have been fed with wrong information like JN stopped war in 1948 under British pressure, or that US pressure stopped IG from getting back J&K in 1971 or that ABV under pressure from US didnt cross the LOC. We are now under no pressure from any quarters especially after 26/11

So what is being achieved with these messages?

May be these messages are send out for public consumption. Truth may be something else. Maybe all the reactions may be because we are too much dependent on foreign arms. GoI doesnt want to upset the applecart. If the rupee collapses, there can be reprcussions

Or may be they want to wait until 36 Rafales join the fleet

[Karan M]

3 "proven" methods used by our beloved left and assorted folks who think nationalism/patriotism are "criminal".

method #1
shame on you
what would gandhi have done?

method #2
it won't work
what will war solve? pakistan is powerful, it has nukes.

method #3
you are a crappy person/community etc.
you are a warmonger. must be an upper caste hindu who does not care for the suffering poor in india who are mostly dalits, women, and other oppressed minorities.

[partha]

On Uri attack

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 402287.cms

Union minister Jitendra Singh:

"It is a disturbing moment and a moment of introspection. I shudder to think how can the nation ever and ever repay for such supreme and ultimate sacrifice of our jawans," he said.

[ricky_v]

might I suggest to the central gov to impose a tax so that the minister in question can buy a fiddle. hell I am thinking of picking up chess to keep my mind off something when my house is under attack. tushar there is thinking of learning sewing, while darshan and harish will master ping pong. with the amount of people that we have coupled with the intensity of introspection after every attack, why we can be a superpower in no time.
fking A man

[shiv]

Of all channels - CNN IBN or whatever it is called now which I never watch suddenly caught my attention while switching channels yesterday. A lady (reporter) made some of the most sensible points I have ever heard on Indian TV.

About "intelligence leaks" of movement she pointed out how social media are being used effectively by Pakis. Simply get friendly with people and ask innocuous questions - "So what time are you off duty" "When will you be moving?. Hope to catch you after you settle down" etc.

Putting an army of people on social media combined with the explosion of smartphones and internet in india and sites offering pjorn and free music it is possible to filter out young men who are in the border areas, figure out innocuously that they are in the armed forces and innocently wring information out of them. Will cross post in the psy-ops thread also

[JayS]

^^ Aren't the soldiers been made aware of such threats enough?? Does Army has such HR programs?? For example, my company has export control regulations, and we are constantly given trainings, emails, video been fed at regular intervals.

[rgosain]

Actually another one that entangles the intellectual yet idiot(tm) Indian crowds is the security/development dichotomy. I will let the members add their views to this one.

[Rudradev]

There is a very subtle and effective psyops technique by which Islamists take *advantage* of the barbaric/atavistic/savage/dark-skinned image that Islam has, to hoodwink liberal elites in cultures with pretensions to "enlightened" civilization.

Let me explain with an example.

Case 1) White Wharton-grad Male Boss (or Indian Hindu IIT-IIM grad Male Boss) to his Female Secretary (could be majority or minority community, though minority generates more outrage):

Thanks for finishing those reports! Nice work, sweetheart! *winks*

Response from (a)Feminists and (b)Scruffy Intellectual Elites/Liberals jealous of the money earned and lifestyle enjoyed by Male Boss:

What a Pig! How dare he! Does he have no respect for women? Truly, this is a feudal society. [Further editorializing beyond the outrage, in case it is a Hindu Boss] Hindu culture besides being profoundly casteist and classist is also essentially characterized by a patriarchical contempt for women. This idea that women are property comes through even amongst the supposedly best-educated classes of privileged Hindus. It just shows that Hindu values are an obstruction to true modernity, egalitarianism, blah blah blah

Case 2) Full bearded Muslim ranting

Of course I beheaded my sister for insulting the family's honour/stoned an adulterous woman to death for claiming to be raped! Muhammed SAW said we should do that. Muhammed SAW was the perfect man. He was the only messenger of Allah. AOA, AOA.

INTERNAL THOUGHT PROCESS of White Feminists/Liberals:

Well, of course, we can't impose our values on everybody. And certainly not on cultures whom we've treated so badly. Look at how angry, how hurt they are! We kept the Muslims down by looting them in the colonial era and shafting them via Sykes/Picot and the creation of Israel. Now we have to be sensitive to their outbursts of violence, barbaric and atavistic as they may seem. They never had a chance to advance themselves and become modern like us. In the end, the Muslims are victims of White, Western Imperialism/Hegemony/Patriarchy, just like black people, white women, gays etc. are. We have to make sure that they trust us... just as we would speak gently and offer bread to a stray dog that bares its fangs. That's how you turn a stray dog into a faithful pet that becomes instilled with your own values. And of course, if the stray dog tries to bite someone else, we can't let that other person retaliate! No cruelty to animals allowed!

PUBLIC RESPONSE of White Feminists/Liberals:

Well, this is no different from our own society where "violence" against women and minorities takes many forms. Look at that white male boss who called his secretary "sweetheart" and winked at her! How can we claim to be more civilized? We have to develop more cross-cultural understanding. As a starting point, we have to make sure there is no bigotry and Islamophobia. ***Most Muslims are peace-loving and law abiding people and we can never let the actions of a few extremists tarnish the image of the vast majority of Muslims. ***"

PUBLIC RESPONSE of Indian Feminists/Liberals/Sickulars: EXACTLY the same as above, with even less attention paid to a thought process. Their thought process is:

educated white people are saying it, no? Therefore we, as modern shitizens of the world, must say the same thing only no? Otherwise, how they will become impressed onlee?

The last sentence in that White Feminist/Liberal Public Response is KEY. It is exactly what CAIR and all of the other Islamist-apologist organizations use as the pivot of their soft-jihad propaganda. It is also what the Pakistanis use to convince Indians that pellet guns used on terrorists who deploy children as stone-throwing human shields for their grenade attacks are an "atrocity". Amongst many other things.

[rgosain]

Rudradev: Thanks for a massive but essential piece of insight.
There is a small but critical mass in the West and amongst their fellow travelers in India who have normalised taqiyya. This has become evident during the reign of Obamas who tend to pepper their appearances with hijab clad women. The same goes for the worldview of the white, liberal, feminist and both are examples of normalisation of deviance.

[Rudradev]

The two critical factors in the Liberal Response (Western-driven, Indian-copied) are
1) The conflation of all TYPES of minority identity as one category, "minorities", that should be dealt with in the same way. Black, female, gay etc. are birth identities. Jewish, Hispanic are both birth- and cultural identities, but as a baseline politically neutral and socially neutral towards those outside the identity group. Islam is an *ideological identity*, with political and social agendas that project not only inwards to members of the group but outwards to all other people and institutions. Liberals however respond to Islam as if it were a simple birth- or cultural-identity.
2) An overarching background belief that members of the minority identity "Islam" can be cultivated and assimilated into a Western universalist model of civilization just as blacks, Chinese, and other minority identities have been. A conviction that the privileged white west can win over and "civilize" Muslims just by presenting its Judeo-Christian values in the guise of "secular" norms, appealing to a standard of "rationalism" as espoused by Western "Enlightenment" scholars, and making certain accommodations in the interest of "fair play".

Both these things cause the development of an enormous blind spot for things like "taqiyya". In fact if you even mention the existence of "taqiyya" you are immediately denounced as a paranoid, bigoted Islamophobe.

[Rudradev]

Counter Psyops against false equivalence drawn by media:

Comparing alleged Intolerance in Hindu society vs. Islam is like comparing the latest iPhone (damn thing doesn't have a headphone jack) to the latest Samsung Note (catches fire when you plug it in).

RGosain, very true!

[A_Gupta]

There is a small but critical mass in the West and amongst their fellow travelers in India who have normalised taqiyya. This has become evident during the reign of Obamas who tend to pepper their appearances with hijab clad women.

Taqqiya in Obama's case is showing something in his appearances, but ruthlessly droning otherwise.

NYTimes:
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/20 ... ing-legacy

Obama’s embrace and vast expansion of drone strikes against militants and terrorists will be an enduring foreign policy legacy. Whereas President George W. Bush authorized approximately 50 drone strikes that killed 296 terrorists and 195 civilians in Yemen, Pakistan and Somalia, Obama has authorized 506 strikes that have killed 3,040 terrorists and 391 civilians.

[Karan M]

^^ but he will come to india and give us lectures on tolerance, showing utter contempt for his hosts.

[A_Gupta]

In some circumstances, a public statement of the whole truth and nothing but the truth can cause vandalism, rioting and worse, thereby making a problem more intractable. (This is not a property of the truth, but rather the lack of self-control of some people who hear the truth.) Therefore practicality requires some public circumspection on the part of policy makers and policy enforcers. But as is clear, this devolves into psy-ops.

[ramana]

I saw this on suckering the whole world.

Last night Pacific Coast Time, the BBC radio anchor Ms. Razzia Iqbal called up an imam of a mosque in New Ark, New Jersey and asked him how he dealt with Americans hating Muslims for acts of terrorism by some Muslims. The Imam was good and said many nice things about how they are nicely treated by an understanding public and made a few Trump rants. Since he wasn't condemning US, the anchor promptly cut him off in middle of sentence!!!!
IOW unless he portrayed the agenda of the BBC, he was cutoff.

[shiv]

I am cross posting a conversation I had in the Paki thread and will make some related comments in a separate post

Don't underestimate the importance of winning the media war. In this kind of struggle, perception is half the battle. So far the Paki narrative is winning out because our side has failed to provide any proof of our claimed strikes. It would be a mistake to let Pakistan control the narrative here.

In this connection - when one is talking about "perceptions" it is important to estimate how much one's own perceptions are colouring one's views about other people's perceptions.

It is YOUR perception that Pakis are winning the media war. it is MY perception that they are not. So who is right? You, or me?

Short of polling everyone we cannot arrive at an honest answer to this question. In the absence of that it is important to understand that for those who perceive Indian actions as having been ineffective - no amount of "proof" can be guaranteed to change that perception. Vice versa is also true.

That being the case we can look at the benefit or otherwise of telling a black total lie and claiming that a raid took place when no raid took place. Assume that the GoI and army are lying and Pakistanis are 100% correct.

But look at the results (my percentages are not objective - they are only estimates)
1. Before news of Surgical strike (fake or real) - 90% Indian were unhappy about government inaction
2. After news of Surgical strike (fake or real) - 70% Indians are happy and maybe 30% unhappy

What does that tell you about perceptions even without "proof"

To sum up:
If a raid took place it is a double win
If a raid did not take place it is still a media victory for most part

[shiv]

Most people, especially honest people - think straight and do not comfortably cross into areas where they hear lies or how to recognize or respond to lies.

Let me take up the example of the "Surgical Strike" a good enough name for Indians retaliation across the border

1. GoI and Indian army "claimed" that it happened
2. Pakistan "claims" that no raid took place

So we have

• The Indian public who by and large accept the Indian army/GoI version
• A few sceptics like Ajai Shuka and Sanjeev Bhatt disputed it
• A third group are Indians who want to believe it but would like to see a situation where India's word is accepted by everyone including Pakistan - or at least a reduced number of doubters. For this they are demanding some proof - demanding to see the video evidence that was claimed to have been recorded.

The problem here is that the "doubters" group have people who think that some "proof" can be given, which will convince sceptics. And when those sceptics are silenced by the "proof" the doubters will feel much more happy than they are feeling now - because they want to see the proof too and imagine that others will believe the proof if they believe it.

This is asking for trouble
1. If the proof is unconvincing to the doubters, they will instantly say that sceptics will not believe it
2. What is worse - even if Indian doubters are convinced by the proof - Pakis and many others will simply reject it

In essence no amount of proof can be given that an Indian raid took place. Unfortunately "doubters" who want proof to be shown in good faith fall into a second trap. They are unable to respond with confidence when they meed a sceptic who asks for proof. Instead of saying "Balls. No proof will be provided to you. The proof lies in coffins in Pakistan" they say "Yes there is proof". The sceptic then asks 'Show it to me"

The doubter is now in a trap. He does not have roof. he claims there is proof and now needs GoI to rescue him from his predicament.

Ultimately, unsatisfactory as it may seem to straight thinking honest people it is worth not being mudded in the head and taking one of two stands
1. I believe the Indian army
2. I don;t believe the Indian army

There is no use saying "I will believe the Indian army after I see proof. It's not for me but I want to show it to pakis". Pakis wil not believe any proof you give them so why fall into such a trap?

[prahaar]

Rudradevji, what cultivates a section of Hindus who perform all rituals but claim to be not very religious, support pink-chaddi-campaign but dress their toddlers in Burkha or dress her as Nun? Making false equivalence between Hindu girls chanting shlokas and same aged girls wearing Burkha?

I also heard a construct which other BRFites from Kerala can help me understand, "Onam is secular hence we all celebrate but Diwali is not".

[Rudradev]

I think it is that Hindu dharm... at least the sadhana (traditional religious observation) aspect of it is like an onion. Multi-layered.

Secularism, as we know, is a concept applied in antithesis to Abrahamic religions. You either observe, or you do not. These are like carrots... you can slice them and have them in small portions (like those who only observe Xmas/Eid) or eat the whole thing (every day namaaz-reading, regular Church going) but ultimately it's either there in your life or it isn't.

By contrast, in the psyches of nearly all Hindus today, the onion resides in one form or another. The outermost layer of the onion consists of pan-Indian Hindu practices observed throughout the Indian state, though perhaps more traditionally embedded in some regions/societies than others... like Diwali. The modern religious Hindu from any part of India will readily recognize Diwali as an observance of pan-Indian Hinduism. But in the psyches of "secular" Hindus, this outer leaf can be sloughed off without feeling any sense of guilt or disconnection. Unless deliberately cultivated, it will wither away unless it is deliberately cultivated for demonstrable adaptive value and social benefit.

The inner leaves of the onion, for every Indian, are the traditional observances that have come down through the generations via his or her family, rooted in the local soil that has always nurtured his or her community... like Onam or Bihu or Bijoya Dashmi or Ganesh Puja. They are MUCH harder to let go of, for a multitude of reasons.

It is easy for a person born Hindu to claim to be secular by shrugging off the outer leaves of the onion. For many Keralites, Diwali is an import from another part of India. It was never a major festival to be observed in their own families' traditions. Similarly, it is easy for a Punjabi or Gujarati living in Mumbai to complain: "what is this Ganesha Puja nuisance, with all the traffic halted and the city brought to a dead stop during Visarjan." Those folks may then put up a Christmas tree in the lobby of their nice secular apartment building, dress their toddler in Burkha/Nun garb for fancy-dress, and claim to be secular. But you can be sure that the Gujarati (in this example) will take Navratri very seriously... its observance is a matter of maintaining relationships with others in their community. Navratri is an inner leaf of the onion for the secular Gujarati who eschews (say) Ganesh Puja as an outer leaf and its observance as non-secular.

The missionaries recognize the fact that Hinduism is an onion with many layers of leaves. Therefore they attempt the following:
1) Encourage an overall undermining of traditional values that contributes to the rise of nuclear families, migration of single young adults to other regions of the country, and abandonment of social and economic ties with traditional communities. If there were not many lakhs of Gujaratis living and trading in Mumbai, Navratri and Diwali celebrations would become anemic. Having this enervating effect on the vibrancy of ALL Hindu observances is the ultimate objective of the "feminist" and "social justice" propaganda angles pursued by a number of their proxies.
2) Openly attack the pan-Indian Hindu observances on one "civil society" pretext or another. Diwali is noise pollution, Holi is water wastage etc. This makes the "Secular" Hindu feel justified in abandoning these observances that do not come form his or her family/community background, because they are not only "communal" but also socially "irresponsible".
3) Where possible, directly assault the inner-leaf observances also on the basis of Western Universalist normative constructs like "feminism". The Trupti Desai assault on Shani Shingnapur is one example.
4) Where it proves impossible to directly attack the inner-leaf observances, because they are so deeply ingrained... *plant a narrative that distances these observances from Hindu Dharma*. Claim that these beliefs and practices existed "before Brahmins brought the evils of caste-ridden Hinduism with them"... like Onam or Bihu. Let the inner-leaf practices continue in local communities but uproot them from the underlying dharmic continuum so that they can eventually be digested into Christianity. Ultimately they will wither and die; the Vatican will declare Bali Maharaj to have been a Saint, and that will be that.

[symontk]

Rudradevji, what cultivates a section of Hindus who perform all rituals but claim to be not very religious, support pink-chaddi-campaign but dress their toddlers in Burkha or dress her as Nun? Making false equivalence between Hindu girls chanting shlokas and same aged girls wearing Burkha?

I also heard a construct which other BRFites from Kerala can help me understand, "Onam is secular hence we all celebrate but Diwali is not".

From my little knowledge, Onam is a state festival for past thousands of years since Mahabali and Ravan being Keralites. Diwali is not celebrated due to the same reason