Which Threat To Indian Interests Should Modi Sarkar Prioritize?

[Rudradev]

Which Threat To Indian Interests Should Modi Sarkar Prioritize?

Both threats are undoubtedly severe and need to be taken care of. Ideally, they should be taken care of simultaneously.

However, time is limited. Resources are limited. As any manager knows, circumstances often demand that one has to be prioritized over the other.

If you were advising the PMO, which one would you say GOI should prioritize as of now? Which one CANNOT be allowed to survive, and must be comprehensively destroyed by all available means, even if it means putting the other one on the back burner for a while?

Conversely, can allowing the survival of Threat B have a crippling effect on our capability to handle Threat A effectively, or vice versa?

Of course there are other dimensions to both threats as well... the entrenched interests of third parties like PRC for example. I would expect us to keep those dimensions in mind when discussing the matter.

[venug]

Overt enemies can be tackled easily as compared to covert, mostly importantly those who live among us, look, smell and feel the same, and yet work for destruction of the nation. We have tackled TSP before, easy-peasy. Internal termites hollow the civilization base before we realize what hit us. The ship sinks.

[deejay]

Most internal enemies are essentially toeing an external enemy line. Many are pro Pakistan, some are pro US, pro China, pro UK, etc. A Venn diagram will also see large overlaps in these.

Taking out the external enemy will take out the root cause of these Mir Jafars. Mir Jafars will continue to be born and created. What can they do to harm India will be limited if the forces interested in harming India are limited.

[shiv]

Most internal enemies are essentially toeing an external enemy line.

I had an epiphany with this regard a couple of days ago and was not sure how to word it. Anyway - saying it on here gives me practice so I can say it better later.

If you consider Pakistan as the extreme form of being anti-Hindu - which is exactly what it is, one can see how branding of the BJP as a Hindu party makes all opposition parties veer towards a Pakistani viewpoint. It is ironic that an India which remains secular with a majority Hindu population - the viewpoint of a rabid anti-Hindu Islamic ideological state is echoed by Indian opposition parties - one of whom has led India for 60 years

The attitudes that I see from some opposition politicians is one that appear like they are willing to see India broken apart rather than accept any polity that purports to represent a Hindu view. Mind you this is not about non Hindu Indians, who are increasingly vocal as a force that oppose the idiocy of the Congress-AAP brand of power hunger based perpetuating a Hindu-nonHindu rift and blaming it on Hindus. As LokeshC pointed out - this is a great example of "gaslighting" - doing something bad and blaming the person who suffers as the cause

But this is also not just about the Congi brand of divisiveness. India's youth bulge need employment and the economy must grow. The divisive politics of the Congress was to keep Muslims poor and blame it on Hindus, keep the caste issue boiling and blame the problem on Hindus. Maintenance of a permanent state of "garibi" is the only plank of the main opposition, followed by caste.

The work that is being done in terms of swacch bharat and toilets is remarkable but remains unremarked. These are things that no other leader has ever voiced or suggested as good for the nation. And the idea of cleaning up the nation is mocked by the opposition - such is their viciousness.

[SwamyG]

In a democracy it is never easy to fight internal saboteurs; it is easy to fight the external ones.

Let us say a drug peddler settles down close to your home; you can educate and caution your family. That is the best option - teach them the horrors of drugs. So it does not matter if Drug Peddler A or B comes to sell them drugs - they have been informed.

The above is easy if you have a small family, in case your family is 1.2 billion people - it is really tough to educate them all. So if there is a drug peddler who is an immediate threat - just deal with him. Education is a long journey.

Cut the oxygen of the source - Pakistan, there will be less trouble. Breaking India Forces also operate from other Western/Christian lands - tackling them is a different challenge.

[Gus]

it is not like these things are separate silos and can be only handled sequentially.

both these major tasks have tons of smaller tasks which are interdependent and interwoven and common to both as well. so work needs to be done on both to be able to progress on any of them

[Cosmo_R]

@Shiv ^^^"The attitudes that I see from some opposition politicians is one that appear like they are willing to see India broken apart rather than accept any polity that purports to represent a Hindu view."

That is at the very core of why India has been a doormat for invaders. The losing rival would rather see a foreigner in the Indian winner's place. The Brits figured this out very early and it was easy to divide and conquer India. They OTOH for all their political and caste/class differences had their skin as jersey and a playbook (a common set of Christian beliefs). Hinduism does not have a playbook.

Most other countries' populations reflexively unite in the face of the 'other'. Ours seem to do the opposite—encourage the other to come rape/pillage and have your way with 'those people'. And I'm only talking about Hindus here.

We desperately need an owner's manual for our core beliefs and continuous enforcement.

JMT

[GShankar]

We all would agree that both are threats. However the approach to neutralize them is different imo.

While it comes to Paki, ISI, Jihadis & co, they all need to be eliminated first and the government is doing that, which is it's priority.

When it comes to internal pakis, they are well entrenched, protected by laws and moreover play the victim. This is a much longer process if dealt with in a silo by itself. However, what I am also seeing from Modi is that, he is using some of the external events to create an internal narrative and mobilize the people to neutralize the idea of pakiness. These both should go in parallel while at the same time modi coming up with new schemes to unite the nation and break the BIF.

Let's prioritize neutralizing the external ones first.

[Agnimitra]

Separate, expose and eliminate internal enemies by using opportunities occasioned by losses or victories against external enemy.

In that way, strategically prioritize internal subversives (those who position inimical ideologies against the Hindu substrate or parasitically on it) by tactically using opportunities thrown up by external enemy.

C-system used external threat as a gun to head of Hindus, as a way of saying - "See, lots of pressure - if 'we' antagonize our own Muslims / Christians / Dalits, then we will collapse. Apres moi le deluge." Hindutva needs to upend that logic.

[Rudradev]

I agree with Agnimitra, in that I don't know if prioritizing the external ones is possible or strategically sound.

Look at it this way.

The ultimate defeat of Pakistan lies not in smashing its army and terrorist infrastructure or even nuking its cities. Those things can all be repaired and regrown over time, with the generosity of those who would like to use Pakistan to contain us, and the disease will reappear. The ultimate defeat of Pakistan lies in completely demolishing Pakistan itself as an idea. Destroying the 2 Nation Theory beyond any hope of recovery, is what will end the Pakistan problem.

Many would say that 1971 destroyed the 2 Nation Theory... and indeed, it could have, if we had aggressively mounted a soft-power campaign to fill the vacuum with something else. IG did not think that far ahead, so it turned out that "purest of pure Islam" filled the vacuum instead and we got where we are today, with a cancerous and honestly more metastatic hybrid of 2 Nation Theory with global Islamism.

To genuinely eradicate the 2 Nation Theory we need some other idea that is more powerful in its appeal and clearly works better in practice. We need a Theory X, a clearly articulated and singular notion of what Bharat is, why she is what she is, and where she is going. The USA has manifest destiny and American Exceptionalism. The Chinese have Neo-Confucianism and Han Nationalism under a token red garb.

Modi has made some strides towards articulating what this big idea should be. "India First", we can call it for now. It has several local offshoots for specific purposes: "Sabka Saath, Sabka Vikaas", "Swachh Bharat", etc.

The C-system (Congress, AAP, Left, Mahagatbandhan-type casteist parties) and its fellow travelers in "civil society", academia and media are, at a very fundamental level, batting for an entirely different notion of what India is and should be. They call this notion the "Idea of India" and regard it as something sacred, of which they are the guardians. They are so defensive of this "Idea of India" that they deride "Swachh Bharat" etc. as empty sloganeering... in fact, one of the biggest criticisms you will hear of Modi from the cynical urban class is "oh, he just comes up with marketing slogans and changes nothing."

However, this "Idea of India" pushed by the C-system could be more appropriately described as the 3-Nation Theory. It is no less poisonous than the 2-Nation Theory, and indeed, as long as it exists, we have no hope of defeating the 2-Nation Theory comprehensively.

As Shiv has suggested, the 3-Nation Theory is entirely parasitical and exploitative in its intent. It divides India into 3 nations:

1) A highly Macaulayized elite class who considers it their privilege to rule India for all time, as de-facto inheritors of the British mantle. They are the only ones with the authority to determine the future direction of India. In Orwell's "Animal Farm" allegory, these would be the Pigs, who wear human clothes while pretending solidarity with the other animals they govern. Their function is to keep power in their hands in a familial manner, and keep the rest of India in a state of perpetual poverty so that power continues to be concentrated in their own hands. Dynastic politics is their hallmark... the original archetype of this is the Gandhi-Nehru dynasty, but that disease has spread throughout the length and breadth of the country, from Patnaiks in Orissa to Badals in Punjab, from Abdullahs in J&K to Karunanidhis in TN, and exists at all levels from central government to tehsil administrations. Tavleen Singh describes this phenomenon in her book "India's Broken Tryst" as a "Democratic Feudalism", in which political parties have become essentially family-held private limited companies that amass and trade in power over successive generations.

2) A huge underclass that consists of poor and middle class Indians. These are mostly Hindu, but not exclusively so. They include many members of minority religions who coexist quite happily with Hindus, and while they have their own religious beliefs and practices, the social and economic framework in which they are embedded is rooted in essentially Hindu cultural traditions that predate the arrival of Islam or Christianity by thousands of years. In general these are the people whom the Pigs view as a vast, silent, politically indifferent labour pool and tax base for exploitation. In Orwellian terms we could call them the "Sheep".

3) A fringe class that is deliberately cultivated by the Pigs as agents provocateur, to increase the insecurity of the Sheep in a controllable manner and make them more compliant with the C-system. These would be the "Dogs" in Orwell's allegory. They consist of members of various identity groups... religious, caste, and political (such as leftist)... who have been deliberately incited to cultivate grievances against Hinduism and all its values and adherents. These include the Owaisis, John Dayals, and Sabyasachi Pandas of the world. Their job is to create disturbances, make demands, and gain prestige amongst their subgroups by securing favours from the pandering troughs of the Pigs. The Pigs use the "Hindu" Sheep as a symbol of everything that is wrong with the country, to energize and aggravate the Dogs... and in turn, the Pigs use the noise and fury of the Dogs as an implicit threat to keep the Sheep in line, by posturing that only they and their Idea of India can fend off chaos.

At times, very successful Dogs can graduate to the Pig class... such as Arvind Kejriwal or Asaduddin Owaisi. Sheep who show promise and a willingness to work with the system can also be elevated into the Pig class after they prove their value as Dogs... for example, Laloo Prasad Yadav or Sharad Pawar, both of whom aren't Doon-School-educated but managed to rise up by adhering to the core dogmatic principles of the 3-Nation Theory.

Pakistan itself, by extension, is recruited as a Dog into the 3-Nation Theory schema. Its fantasies are given free rein by the constant surrender-mentality of people like Manmohan Singh, who compromised our own nation's interests and armed forces' sacrifices in the service of Pakistani irredentism. Worse yet, the Pigs concocted a fictional basis for persecuting the Sheep... "Hindu Terrorism"... by which the external Dogs could be let off the hook by blaming Indian Hindus for their actions. This only shows how valuable the Pigs regard the Pakistani Dog to be, as a tool to continue reinforcing the framework of the 3-Nation Theory. For both Pakistan and the C-system, the vast mass of Hindus (and minorities who leave peacefully within a framework based in Hindu tradition) are Sheep to be exploited forever. The Pakistanis would like to exploit them by conquering them and converting them to Islam to serve as Aljaf or Arzal slaves. The C-system exploits them by keeping them in poverty and bullying them into subservience by using both internal and external Dogs.

So what does all this have to do with the premise of this thread? Simply this. As long as the 3-Nation Theory is strong in India, as long as its adherents are contenders for political power, we can never achieve an absolute national consensus on the India First idea that Modi has brought in as an alternative. Hence, we can never comprehensively defeat the 2 Nation Theory as long as the 3-Nation Theory exists. We can inflict tactical and operational defeats on Pakistan, imposing increasing costs on them for their direct attempts to inflict terrorism and nuclear blackmail on India. But we can not solve the Pakistan problem.

In fact, right now after the Surgical Strike, we are seeing the curious spectacle of the whipped Pakistani Dog tucking its tail and running behind its masters... the Pigs of the C-System, to defend it. The Pigs are dutifully advancing the propaganda line of the ISPR by questioning whether the strike took place, minimizing its value, and at the same time warning direly that the "Dog will be back to bite everybody" in revenge for something that never happened. What we are seeing here is a consolidated defense of the 3-Nation Theory. The Pakistani Dog is as much a part of this as the Pigs of the C-System are. The Pigs of the C-System will protect the Pakistani Dog from strategic defeat because it is a core component of their exploitative "Idea of India".

In that Christine Fair quote Shiv likes to post quite often, it says something like: "For the Pakistan Army, defeat is that moment when they no longer have the ability to resist or challenge India." It is not losing 100-odd jihadis and soldiers to a surgical strike, not failing to achieve their war aims, not losing one half of their country. As long as they simply survive and exist with the wherewithal to somehow hinder India's rise, then in their own view, they "win".

It follows that the proponents of the 3-Nation Theory are an indispensable source of everlasting victory for the Pakistan Army. The Pigs will never allow the Pakistan Army to be constrained from resisting India, especially the India-First India of Narendra Modi. They will not countenance a man like Modi, rising from the Sheep and putting an end to one of their most prized Dogs and preventing its fangs from threatening the vast mass of Sheep. Therefore, any defeat that can be imposed on Pakistan while the C-System and its 3-Nation Theory exist will only be tactical and temporary in nature. We should continue to impose these defeats and increase the cost on Pakistan for its actions, of course. But the deeper, strategic and absolutely vital battle is the one that needs to be fought within. The C-System and its 3-Nation Theory must be rooted out and destroyed by any and all available means. Only then is a strategic defeat of Pakistan even possible.

[JwalaMukhi]

The narrative that "some mother's son got killed, what goes my father" has been established by the durbari c-system. To promote and enhance such undeserving gravy train benefits, the durbari system is making all kinds of alliances with enemies. The army strikes has changed that narrative from being some mother's son, to ones own, and the best of the lot has fallen, and it is loss for everyone. This is very unpalatable to durbaris because, unwashed who bear the burden and do jobs without any expectations, are being felicitated and treated as own. The durbari system is slowly failing mainly due to expansion and democratization of opportunities and recognition, which largely depends on competency. Durbaris are fading into irrelevance. The loss of privilege is driving many in the durbari to bare fangs and willing to poison the waterhole. IOW pakistaniyat is being displayed.

For the present sarkar, there is unfortunately no luxury to prioritize and tackle the enemies. All the enemies need to be tackled simultaneously, proactively and continuously.

[Cosmo_R]

I'm late to the party. But let me observe that you always prioritize the threat that's about to kill you first not just an arbitrary choice of either or. Offer up some more voting choices that engender real thought and debate. Else this just devolves into a helpless rant.

I know where you're going and I want to be supportive.

[Pratyush]

Voted 1 as the domestic issue's should not be linked with external ones. Right now the domestic enemies think that their is an electoral gain for them to follow this line of thought. Once they learn that this line of thought will have diminishing returns, they will abandon the current course of action.

So the key is to focus on the core areas of governance. Not get distracted by internal enemies. They will be defeated by the voters themselves.

What I am trying to say is, alway act and never react.

[kapilrdave]

I voted for 1.

1. Most, if not all, problems in India has an epicenter outside the country. So eliminating the root should be the first priority.

2. Defeating the external enemy seems to bring a very positive and nationalistic wave among the Indians, muslims included. If acted against internal enemies, we end up doing endless and worthless arguments for eternity which gives the liberals legitimacy. Nothing crushes the internal enemies' legitimacy more than parroting the enemy's lines.

3. Once their handlers are crushed, the internal enemies will get thoroughly demoralized and go to oblivion, or at least lose their numbers and clout.

4. Like terrorists, there is no end to eliminating the liberals. They will keep coming all the time. Picture looks rosy for the moment because there is a nationalist govt at the moment. God forbid if they lose next election, then there will be a huge infuse of next gen internal enemies. So in short, it's endless and futile process. Therefore we must eliminate the root itself when the situation is favorable.

[Dipanker]

The work that is being done in terms of swacch bharat and toilets is remarkable but remains unremarked. These are things that no other leader has ever voiced or suggested as good for the nation. And the idea of cleaning up the nation is mocked by the opposition - such is their viciousness.

You are forgetting father of the nation, Mahatma Gandhi.

http://blogs.wsj.com/briefly/2015/10/01 ... anitation/

[Dipanker]

I voted for 1.

1. Most, if not all, problems in India has an epicenter outside the country. So eliminating the root should be the first priority.

2. Defeating the external enemy seems to bring a very positive and nationalistic wave among the Indians, muslims included. If acted against internal enemies, we end up doing endless and worthless arguments for eternity which gives the liberals legitimacy. Nothing crushes the internal enemies' legitimacy more than parroting the enemy's lines.

3. Once their handlers are crushed, the internal enemies will get thoroughly demoralized and go to oblivion, or at least lose their numbers and clout.

4. Like terrorists, there is no end to eliminating the liberals. They will keep coming all the time. Picture looks rosy for the moment because there is a nationalist govt at the moment. God forbid if they lose next election, then there will be a huge infuse of next gen internal enemies. So in short, it's endless and futile process. Therefore we must eliminate the root itself when the situation is favorable.

Why is there a need to eliminate liberals? As a liberal I am offended by your comment. Terrorism of the religious variety is a RIGHT WING thinking.

[kapilrdave]

^^ I'm sorry if you are offended. But nowadays, being called a liberal is taken as offense for the reasons you know. Just like being called a secular. Both words can be used with anti-nationals interchangeably in today's context.

[Dipanker]

^^ I'm sorry if you are offended. But nowadays, being called a liberal is taken as offense for the reasons you know. Just like being called a secular. Both words can be used with anti-nationals interchangeably in today's context.

Liberal+Secular == Anti-National ??

You are painting with a very large brush.

[shiv]

The work that is being done in terms of swacch bharat and toilets is remarkable but remains unremarked. These are things that no other leader has ever voiced or suggested as good for the nation. And the idea of cleaning up the nation is mocked by the opposition - such is their viciousness.

You are forgetting father of the nation, Mahatma Gandhi.

http://blogs.wsj.com/briefly/2015/10/01 ... anitation/

Sorry Dipanker - and no disrespect to Gandhi or your views. Gandhi's views are basically generalities that any treatise on dharma will give one on the advantages of "shaucha". There is a reason why the government is called the executive arm. They need to execute policy and not just pontificate about ideal scenarios. I note that the article is a "he said it too" piece in response to Modi's thrust. I would be happy to be pointed to any policy document from 1947 to 2014 calling for the building of toilets and facilitating general cleanliness and prime ministerial policies to implement that.

I realize I come across as a "bhakt" but as a person who has fought a nearly lone battle against public shitting and pissing in my local area for 20 years it would be difficult for an uninvolved person to understand the power that statements from the PM and government policy brings to public hygiene.

[Rudradev]

I voted for 1.

1. Most, if not all, problems in India has an epicenter outside the country. So eliminating the root should be the first priority.
...

3. Once their handlers are crushed, the internal enemies will get thoroughly demoralized and go to oblivion, or at least lose their numbers and clout.

Kapil ji the reason I began this thread was to examine exactly the assumptions you have made above... most of us generally accept them to be true, or did so until recently, but the combined indications of a few data points make me wonder if it is or not.

The overall assumption is: our main enemy is outside (Pakistan). Internal enemies are, at worst, a subsidiary of Pakistan. If Pakistan is somehow "taken out" the internal enemies will fall apart as if they were made of sand.

I am wondering if this is really true.

We know Pakistan has always relied on external "fathers" to survive. We name various countries: US, China, Saudi Arabia and UK as being 3.5 of these fathers. I am wondering if in fact, the C-system in India is not a "child" or employee of Pakistan, but another 0.5 or 1 additional father.

Why do we think Pakistan is the seth and C-system wallahs are doing its bidding, rather than the other way round?

Is it because Pakistan has more resources than C-system? I'm not at all sure about this. Do we know how much money was cleared by the Sonia Gandhi/MMS regime over the period 2004-2014? In just one of many many scams... 2G... the net loss to the Indian exchequer was estimated at Rs. 1.77 lakh crore. In contemporaneous USD terms, that is approximately TWICE the total amount of aid received by Pakistan from the US in all the years from 2001 until the 2G scam. If even half of that lost money found its way into C-system pockets, then the C-system... in one scam alone... gained as much money as the US had given Pakistan to fight the so-called War on Terror.

Is it because we think Pakistan protects the C-system as a seth would his loyal servants? On the contrary. The C-system protects Pakistan. It protected them at Sharm-al-Shaikh and Thimphu. It protected them after 26/11 from any retaliation whatsoever. And it was complicit, if not instrumental, in coming up with the fabrication of "Hindu Terrorism" to absolve Pakistan of everything from the Samjhauta Blasts to the killing of Hemant Karkare, and possibly 26/11 itself if Kasab had not been captured (remember the "red threads" on the attackers' wrists).

Is it because we just cannot bear to think that the C-system, Chacha Nehru's lineage, could possibly use violent anti-national terrorists to serve its ends? Well in that case we are ignoring Bhindranwale and Pirabhakaran, as well as the Congress terrorists who slaughtered 3,000 Sikhs in Delhi in 1984. This has been going on for decades. Are we ignoring the clear implications of the Ishrat Jahan case, where Congress ministers leaned on IB officials to sink any association between Ishrat Jahan and the LeT's plot to assassinate Modi? Who was using who in that case? Was Pakistan using the C-system as a servant, or C-system using the ISI as a servant?

Remember that when UPA was in power, the MMS/Sonia regime thought nothing of making "terrorists" out of ordinary patriotic Indians, just saadharan Hindus like you or me. Today we want to give these people the benefit of the doubt and think that they will be peacefully, democratically silenced if only we destroy their mai-baap Pakistan. Does it occur to us that these people, as a father of Pakistan, are exactly the ones who will never allow the comprehensive destruction of Pakistan to happen?

[kapilrdave]

^^ I'm sorry if you are offended. But nowadays, being called a liberal is taken as offense for the reasons you know. Just like being called a secular. Both words can be used with anti-nationals interchangeably in today's context.

Liberal+Secular == Anti-National ??

You are painting with a very large brush.

I actually recalled something about you. Sorry, I'll not take this bait and waste my time.

[shiv]

^^ I'm sorry if you are offended. But nowadays, being called a liberal is taken as offense for the reasons you know. Just like being called a secular. Both words can be used with anti-nationals interchangeably in today's context.

Liberal+Secular == Anti-National ??

You are painting with a very large brush.

People who call themselves liberal in India are fake liberals who have lifted a western view of liberalism and copy pasted it on India with no insight into the fact that Indian culture had aspects of liberalism that were discarded in teh light of this blind copy pasting

Here is a summary of my view from a Tweet I had posted which links up secularism and liberalism

Secular India misuses Hindu liberalism to uphold & protect Muslim/Christian conservatism

The anti nationals bit is slightly more complex but I have alluded to it in my post above. The character of the Pakistani state by definition is anti-Hindu and the Pakistani state makes statements at the international level accusing Hindus of atrocities. and has funded anti-Hindu causes and groups. It is remarkable that Indian secular parties often echo exactly the statements and accusations made against Hindus by Pakistan.

The "Idea of Pakistan" also called "Pakistaniyat" is predicated around the accusation that Islam and Muslims are at grave risk from Hindus. Indian secularism is a mirror image of Pakistaniyat in India. Secularism is the Indian avatar of Pakistaniyat. Pakistaniyat says Muslims are in danger from Hindus. Secularism agrees.

Here is what, of all people, Ramchandra Guha wrote

Gandhi was right that religious reform is largely brought about by critics within the tradition. It was because he was a Hindu that he could successfully challenge the Sankaracharyas when they defended the pernicious practice of untouchability. By the same token, it may only be that when Muslim liberals are numerous and organized enough that practices such as polygamy and the triple talaq can be abolished.

At the moment, they are not. One of the peculiarities of liberal discourse in India is that while there are many Hindu writers and politicians ready to criticize Hindutva fanatics, Muslim writers and politicians are hesitant to take on the bigots in their own community. It is disappointing to see even professedly modern, cosmopolitan politicians like Salman Khurshid and Omar Abdullah so reluctant to openly confront the likes of the Owaisi brothers and Azam Khan.

A Hindu voice is automatically dubbed "communal" and "bigoted", Also "Right wing" which you have equated with terrorism. This is actually a specious obfuscation that does everything to hide the pogroms conducted by the classic "left wing" the communists and the liberal Protestant Brits in India

Who does this? The "Secular Liberals"

[kapilrdave]

..............
...........
I am wondering if this is really true.

................
Why do we think Pakistan is the seth and C-system wallahs are doing its bidding, rather than the other way round?

........................

Remember that when UPA was in power, the MMS/Sonia regime thought nothing of making "terrorists" out of ordinary patriotic Indians, just saadharan Hindus like you or me. Today we want to give these people the benefit of the doubt and think that they will be peacefully, democratically silenced if only we destroy their mai-baap Pakistan. Does it occur to us that these people, as a father of Pakistan, are exactly the ones who will never allow the comprehensive destruction of Pakistan to happen?

Rudradev ji,

What you are saying could also be true. But in either case, destroying pakistan into small pieces is the ideal way of doing it. If they are the mai-bap of indian traitors then the root will be removed. And if resident traitors are pakistan's mai-bap then we will be destroying the very reason for the mai-bap's existence. The point is, you cannot eliminate the internal enemies in a jiffy (relatively speaking). The jaichands have graced this country for hundreds of years and still they are thriving. It will be very naive to believe that even 2-3 terms of Modi sarkar will be enough to eliminate all of them. On the other hand, destroying pakistan and removing the unnatural enmity with 3.5 (it used to be 4.5 along with Japan? hence the 'fourfathers' word) nations. Both of this can be achieved with relative ease.

Ultimately, this too is not a permanent solution. That's because the war is not between two countries but between two civilizational ideas. Unless and until one of the either group submits and converts to the other idea, the war will be on. And this is nothing new either. Throughout the history there have been clashes of ideals among civilizations hence the unending war between suras and asuras.

But for now, it looks like destroying the external enemies is the easiest and fastest way of buying the peace.

[shiv]

The feelings I have expressed are by no means unique. By coincidence I found this comment on Twitter by Raveen Tandon who can be dismissed as a dumb bimbo. But I agree with the dumb bimbo
https://twitter.com/TandonRaveena/statu ... 8538481664

Tolerance that has been imbibed in us has actually turned the narrative against India.Kashmiri Pandits were betrayed by Own politicians

This is as clear an example as one can get of secular liberals misusing Hindu liberalism to stab Hindus in the back. Why would this not be "anti-national" behaviour?

[Agnimitra]

Does it occur to us that these people, as a father of Pakistan, are exactly the ones who will never allow the comprehensive destruction of Pakistan to happen?

Most recent case in point - the outrage of Salman Khurshid and a couple of others in the C-system to Modi's mention of Balochistan from the ramparts of the Red Fort.

The 'balance of power' politic used by C-system is exactly that used by the Mughals and their system of internal alliances and mansabdari.

[ramana]

I came late to the thread.
I vote for 2 as internal termites are dangerous when facing external threat.
And one should act on things one can control.
A divided house will fall.

So Option 2 is higher priority.


Examples see how Kejriwal and his ilk are undermining the nation's resolve.

[Gus]

Liberal+Secular == Anti-National ??

You are painting with a very large brush.

"self-proclaimed liberals" + "self-proclaimed secular" are definitely == anti-national (what passes for liberalism and secularism in India).

What is going on in India is not liberalism or secularism, by those who claim to be liberals and seculars.

[kapilrdave]

The divided house is not going to be united anytime soon. More likely, it will stay more or less the same way forever. We cannot hold back our wrath on the enemies for them. Just like you can't wait for ALL the best of the best weapons to come into your armory before going to the war with enemy, same way, you can't wait for the internal situation to be perfect as well. At some point of time, you will have to have a go. And that time has come!

[venug]

1. 26/11 Mahesh Butt's son's involvement.
2. Diggy Raja, Kejri and others asking surgical strike proof. which is being milked by TSP in their propaganda war.
3. MS Aiyar begging Pakis to get rid of Modi gov.
4. Paid stone pelters defense and asking AFSA and pellet guns to be removed. This being milked by TSPians in Intl fora to show stone pelters are freedom fighters and this is indigenous, nothing to do with the terrorism.
5. RG's saffron terror a bigger threat to India than LeT straight out of his mush pronouncements.
6. Teesta's Godhra massacre bogey is milked at every instant by TSP. Not only that Teesta testified at United States Commission on International Religious Freedom.
So on..., internal threats breed external threats and also breathe a new life to external threats. A symbiotic relationship. In fact at every fora TSP is using these internal voices to say "Hey Indians themselves now say x, y, z are happening in India, you can ask the above guys for proof".

I always felt, internal enemies keep making holes in the national unity bucket, you can't fill it, till these holes and hole makers are got rid off.

[ramana]

In samudhra manthan a lot of bile comes and eventually amrut.
Similarly I first thought yet another thread! (YAT)

Shiv said this

If you consider Pakistan as the extreme form of being anti-Hindu - which is exactly what it is, one can see how branding of the BJP as a Hindu party makes all opposition parties veer towards a Pakistani viewpoint. It is ironic that an India which remains secular with a majority Hindu population - the viewpoint of a rabid anti-Hindu Islamic ideological state is echoed by Indian opposition parties - one of whom has led India for 60 years

The attitudes that I see from some opposition politicians is one that appear like they are willing to see India broken apart rather than accept any polity that purports to represent a Hindu view. Mind you this is not about non Hindu Indians, who are increasingly vocal as a force that oppose the idiocy of the Congress-AAP brand of power hunger based perpetuating a Hindu-non Hindu rift and blaming it on Hindus. As LokeshC pointed out - this is a great example of "gaslighting" - doing something bad and blaming the person who suffers as the cause

When Pakistan has framed itself as an Islamist state, declaring India as secular state fosters attitudes that support anti Hindu Pakistan.
Add to this the SC interventions on behalf of the secular state where they drop secularism against Hindus makes this very problematic at the least.
SC behaves as the Church against Hindus.

[kapilrdave]

The dismemberment of pakistan will conclusively disapprove the two nation theory which will automatically solve so many internal problems and help to certain section of the society (or a certain section of community) to do a senity check. For centuries we have looked inward to find creative excuses to not to fight the conclusive war. We kept lamenting about enemies coming from Khyber pass all the time, but we never found a reason enough to cross Khyber pass ourselves and finish the matter once and for all! Not anymore. Please... Not anymore.

[shiv]

Twitter has a new feature called 'moments" where one can collect up Tweets of any single theme. I have created a list of a few Tweets that links Pakistaniyat (the idea of Pakistan) with secularism. This then gives the link between Indian secularism, the idea of Pakistan, the two nation theory that places Muslims and Hindus in two separate compartments with the latter as being deeply deficient.

It is not possible to avoid the Pakistan question when we talk about "internal Jaichands". There are a large number of Indians who cheerfully state a viewpoint that comes from Pakistan. It may not be Pakistan that they copy - they may have thought of it de novo - but they add weight to the Pakistani argument that the real problem is Hindu India.

Here is my Tweet "Moment" called "Indian Secularism and Pakistaniyat"

[Rudradev]

Shiv, excellent compilation of tweets.

I have a data point to add here.

Arnab had a program about Pakistani "Artistes" in India being allowed to continue working and earning money from the Indian film industry while never breathing a word against Pakistani terrorism inflicted upon Indians. One of his guests is one Rahul Agarwal, until recently a member of the Indian Motion Picture Producers Association, who has resigned from that body to protest its announced boycott of Pakistani "artistes".

Watch from here:
https://youtu.be/BKVM-mnSdYM?t=189

Watch till about time code 4:30 (about 90 seconds from where the clip starts).

Arnab asks Agarwal about Pakistani actor Ali Zafar. After the Peshawar attack by TTP in Pakistan, Ali Zafar recorded a song in honour of the victims; and also spoke about his "shock and disgust" over the attack. Arnab asks if Ali Zafar can, if not record a song, at least express in public his shock and disgust over 26/11, Pathankot, and Uri.

The answer from Agarwal is jaw dropping.

"You know there are extreme fundamentalists... Arnab, there are extreme fundamentalists on both sides."

Agarwal goes on to say that if Ali Zafar made a statement against Pakistan-sponsored terrorism upon India, "something might happen to his family... or his house [in Pakistan]"

So the equivalence here is between the IMPPA banning Pakistani artistes from earning money in Indian films (extreme fundamentalists on this side) vs. those who would retaliate violently against Ali Zafar's family or property in Pakistan, for expressing shock and disgust at Pakistan-sponsored terrorist acts against Indians (extreme fundamentalists on that side).

This statement of equivalence is made without any trace of irony on Agarwal's part. It is an utterly unselfconscious belch of pure imbibed secularism, Nehru-Gandhi style, without the merest dram of critical thinking applied to it.

It does not consider what is being weighed against what, even for a moment. In terms of the imagined "retaliation", or in terms of the actual provocation.

And it does not even begin to answer the question: what about the possibility of "extreme fundamentalists" retaliating against Ali Zafar's family when he publicly condemned TTP attacks against Pakistanis in Peshawar? Was that not a concern for Ali Zafar or Ravi Agarwal? Only when Ali Zafar speaks out against Paki terrorist acts affecting the people from whom he derives his celebrity and earns his money... that's when extreme fundamentalists would come into the picture?

I wonder if, in this context, Agarwal was inadvertently 100% correct.

A huge majority of Pakis would be enlightened moderates when it came to Ali Zafar's (or anyone else's) condemnation of TTP atrocities against a school in Peshawar. Momeen-on-momeen violence means the attackers could never be Muslim, but the victims, who are Muslim, must be grieved for and protested for.

The same huge majority of Pakis would become "extreme fundamentalists" if Ali Zafar said anything about Paki/ISI/LeT/JeM atrocities against Indians. They would kill/rape his family and burn his house down. After all these are brave freedom-fighter attacks against evil Hindu kaffirs who oppress the Momeen in Kashmir and elsewhere.

A tenet of Indian secularism is that we must accept the right of Pakistanis to be "enlightened moderates" when it comes to TTP and "extreme fundamentalists" when it comes to India, specifically Hindus. Hindus, by virtue of being Hindus, somehow deserve the violent excesses we provoke in enlightened moderate Pakistanis, because our very existence as Hindus is enough to justify their acts of extreme fundamentalism. We are impure, napak, kaffir, idolators, and it is the natural secular order of things... not Islamic, but secular order of things... that they should want to kill us. We must tacitly accept this. If we point out that it is somehow hypocritical of Pakistanis to behave like this, it makes us "extreme fundamentalists" ourselves.

[Primus]

I voted for 2

There are too many external 'Dogs' in RD's parlance. Pakistan is just the most annoying mutt. Remember, the only war India ever lost was against China and while Pakistan makes a lot of noise, China works quietly against Indian interests. Then there are the Brishits and other of their ilk who really want to contain us although outwardly are happy to do business.

In another lifetime almost, I had a conversation with a nurse while working in the UK. She asked me why I was there - I responded because you were there. She then said why did you people let us come there? I said because you came under a false pretext - to trade, but then took over the country with your usual methods. If you had come as invaders, we would have thrown you back into the sea.

Nothing has changed. They still don't come as conquerors but that does not mean the threat is any less today than it was centuries ago.

External Dogs cannot be vanquished easily and given the numbers, new ones will pop up every time one is controlled. Which is precisely the reason why our own house must be put in order first.

There are also far too many Jaichands - no need to list them. The best way to take care of the usual suspects is to make them irrelevant. If the economy and thus the average Indian's life improves to where the daily grind for 'roti, kapda aur makan' does not consume every ounce of energy then the public opinion is enough to dissuade the BIF from making mischief. Combine this with transparent governance, eradication of corruption (at least at grassroot level), enforcement of the law in a fair and just manner and India could be truly immune from threats within.

Who can deny that NM has the strength and the vision to do this? There is a tremendous hue and cry by the usual suspects because the status quo is being challenged. If you listen to his latest speech in Lucknow where he talks about defeating the 'Ravan' within each of us, you can't help being moved. The man is a true game changer not just for India but for the world at large.

A strong India - both economically and militarily - will easily be able to handle threats from outside, provided there is political will and the right kind of leadership. Nobody messes with China and neither will they with India, hopefully in the not too distant future.

[nirav]

The dhimmification under 60 years of congress rule is going to be a huge challenge to tackle.

Eventually its the mindset of the people at large that counts.
We have way too many dhimmified secular abduls in all walks of life.With passing generations i wont be surprised if some have found their way into the armed forces too.

A confident and resurgent leadership cant achieve much if the masses at large are dhimmified. Reverse dhimmification needs to be started to ensure future generations are bold and confident.

The Aaptard school of thought is the worst a country can have.

[shiv]

We have way too many dhimmified secular abduls in all walks of life.With passing generations i wont be surprised if some have found their way into the armed forces too.

The armed forces are like the rest of India. Equally dhimmified

[kapilrdave]

It is interesting that majority of people think that getting rid of the internal enemies is easier than defeating external ones. IMO it's not. Our current demography simply doesn't make it any easier. We know that in the past even when the demography was not that much adverse, we still had jaichands dime a dozen. I will go as far as saying that the current time is having the LEAST number (+ intensity) of internal enemies than what we had in past 1000 years at least!

If I'm reading everyone's mind right, the confidence in our ability to destroy internal enemies comes from the recent emergence of nationalist govt. But Sirs, it's been just 2.5 years since that happened and bhagvan knows what will happen in next election or an election after that. Even if the nationalists keep winning the election for next 30 years, it will still not be sufficient to clean the mess inside. Destroying external enemies is a piece of cake in comparison because it requires only military might and nothing else. And military might is what we have already!

IMO Our house cleaning program needs to be initiated from outside of the house. There are millions of people who need inspiration to turn nationalists from their current contrary state. That inspiration can come from outside only, not internally for the reasons I'm not willing to go into detail.

Nehru & Jinnah unknowingly gave us an opportunity in disguise in 1947 by giving us partition. We need to cash in that opportunity before it's too late. Think big. Think "Akhand".