Understanding US thread-III

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 27 Mar 2017 02:15

The color revolutions and expanding NATO to russosphere has come back to bite massa very bad. And the party that usually cries bear about everything is now in complete disarray and going along with this. Quite extraordinary stuff that Putin has accomplished here

kiranA · Post by **kiranA** » 27 Mar 2017 04:42

A_Gupta wrote:
A few years ago, a relative of mine, an electrician who made a good living laying cable alongside highways, told me that his economic future depended on one thing: his back. He saw what happened to older guys—he meant men in their late thirties—when the pain became unbearable. They either became supervisors or they had to quit. At the time, my relative was about to turn thirty himself, and I remember him saying, “My back is killing me.”
...
In economics, when a person has some money, they can do one of two things: invest it or use it to buy something they want to consume. Most of the time, they consume. That can mean buying a slice of pizza, or “consuming” a vacation, a movie, or a new car. Health care is typically classified as a form of consumption. But if my relative spent some of his money with a back-pain specialist, who could teach him exercises that would prolong his working life by another decade, shouldn’t that be considered an investment? He would be choosing to forego paying for something that he actually wants today so that he can make more money in the future.
...
As my relative’s situation makes clear, much health-care consumption is perhaps better classified as an investment. As it happens, my relative didn’t get his back properly treated. He took medicine, and then illegal drugs, to treat his pain. That led to an addiction, which led to crime; he is in prison now, and costing the government tens of thousands of dollars a year. When he gets out, it seems unlikely that he will ever earn as much as he would have had he received basic preventive care when his pain first began. It would be wrong to blame all his troubles on health care, but failing to invest in proper treatment when it was needed helped transform one citizen from a hard-working taxpayer into a possible lifelong recipient of government largesse.
http://www.newyorker.com/business/adam- ... ealth-care

Bull crap logic. that way anything can be argued as investment - if i dont eat nutritious food I may not work properly so food expense is investment.

Falijee · Post by **Falijee** » 27 Mar 2017 04:59

The great divide: Politics in the Age of Trump
By Ted Koppel

As this past week’s battle over health care proves, the great divide in American politics shows no sign of healing, or even of quieting down. Our Cover Story is reported by “Sunday Morning” Senior Contributor Ted Koppel:
Increasingly, we Americans occupy alternate universes. President Trump: “To be honest, I inherited a mess! It’s a mess!” Stephen Colbert: “No, you inherited a fortune; we elected a mess.”There is very little common ground left … only battling perceptions of reality. Neither side seems to have much use for the other. And in this age of the Internet and cable TV, very little is out of bounds: John Oliver: “Donald Trump -- America’s wealthiest hemorrhoid.” Michael Savage: “Democrats want to dissolve the borders. Isn’t that what they wanted? Open borders? Isn’t that what that snake Obama did?”

Sean Hannity’s television program on Fox has a nightly audience of 2.9 million viewers. He has, from the first, promoted Donald Trump and a highly-partisan agenda.

Fareed Zakakaria: “I think the President is somewhat indifferent to things that are true or false. He has spent his whole life bullsh***ing. He has succeed bullshitting

It needs to be said that our bitter political divide didn’t begin in the Age of Trump. But it has evolved.Last spring, in June of 2016, a Pew study discovered that 49% of Republicans and 55% of Democrats say they are afraid -- yes, afraid -- of the other party.As President Trump might say: “Sad!”

More and more, it seems that DT will proving to be a disaster !

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 27 Mar 2017 05:44

TSJones wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:Tulsi Gabbard (on fB):
...

just simply deleting the obamacare requirement for everyone to be insured will ultimately kill it. finis, done. in just a matter of a few years. the plan needs healthy people to be insured in order for it to survive.

...

Everyone is mandated to have auto-insurance else the cop will write you up. Majority not screwing up - accidents and damages -in other words, 'healthy drivers', is what funds the one's who end up in some accident.

Why this special angst against ACA requiring everyone to be insured?

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 27 Mar 2017 05:56

kiranA wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:

http://www.newyorker.com/business/adam- ... ealth-care
Bull crap logic. that way anything can be argued as investment - if i dont eat nutritious food I may not work properly so food expense is investment.

Actually, an investment is exactly what it is.

Given the way you appear to "think", it is quite obvious to everyone what kind of food you ate during the years when your brain (what there is of it) was developing. Now you are stuck with the consequences of a poor investment.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 27 Mar 2017 05:59

nooooooo commmmmmmenttttttt
Oh well.. some of were accidentally dropped on our heads as infants. In my case I stood below the food cabinet when Pappathi The Housekeeper was waging an airstrike against a visiting pakistani (a cockroach that had hidden among the biscuit tins kept above the cabinet) with her broomstick. I was looking up hopefully at the biscuit tins teetering 3x above my reach, when I got my wish: the tin full of cream biscuits fell on my head. On my face, to be precise.

komal · Post by **komal** » 27 Mar 2017 06:01

Yayavar wrote:
Everyone is mandated to have auto-insurance else the cop will write you up. Majority not screwing up - accidents and damages -in other words, 'healthy drivers', is what funds the one's who end up in some accident.

Why this special angst against ACA requiring everyone to be insured?

The facile argument is that you don't have to drive a car -- so you don't need to pay for auto insurance. But you have no way of avoiding ACA.

The real reason is racist -- the Confederates States and the GOP don't want health coverage for the black and the brown. The Governor of Michigan had no problem poisoning African American children to save $10K. Look at infant mortality rates for the black/brown in the Confederacy.

If Obamacare only applied to white people, there would be no problem at all. The Ryan/Trump plan was designed to just that.

kiranA · Post by **kiranA** » 27 Mar 2017 06:24

Rudradev wrote:

Actually, an investment is exactly what it is.

Yeah right . In the lala land where you fancy yourself as capable of thinking.

Given the way you appear to "think", it is quite obvious to everyone what kind of food you ate during the years when your brain (what there is of it) was developing. Now you are stuck with the consequences of a poor investment

wowow ..what was the reason for such an aggressive butthurt personalized rant. My post was pretty innoucous. It must be some other post which must have bought out such impotent rage.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 27 Mar 2017 07:36

Yayavar wrote:
TSJones wrote:
...

just simply deleting the obamacare requirement for everyone to be insured will ultimately kill it. finis, done. in just a matter of a few years. the plan needs healthy people to be insured in order for it to survive.

...
Everyone is mandated to have auto-insurance else the cop will write you up. Majority not screwing up - accidents and damages -in other words, 'healthy drivers', is what funds the one's who end up in some accident.

Why this special angst against ACA requiring everyone to be insured?

car insurance is "experience rated"

that is to say, if you are a lousy driver you will quickly find out that it pays to be a good driver.

they don't do that with health insurance for a number of reasons, mainly social.

the most expensive medical costs usually occur when you are born and when you are near death,

Freedom Works and Americans for Prosperity, both Koch-brother associated conservative organizations, are against any social legislation.

komal · Post by **komal** » 27 Mar 2017 07:38

TSJones wrote:
Yayavar wrote:
Everyone is mandated to have auto-insurance else the cop will write you up. Majority not screwing up - accidents and damages -in other words, 'healthy drivers', is what funds the one's who end up in some accident.

Why this special angst against ACA requiring everyone to be insured?
car insurance is "experience rated"

that is to say, if you are a lousy driver you will quickly find out that it pays to be a good driver.

they don't do that with health insurance for a number of reasons, mainly social.

the most expensive medical costs usually occur when you are born and when you are near death,

Car insurance is based on age/sex. Young males have higher rates (regardless of driving record).

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 27 Mar 2017 07:51

komal wrote:
TSJones wrote:
car insurance is "experience rated"

that is to say, if you are a lousy driver you will quickly find out that it pays to be a good driver.

they don't do that with health insurance for a number of reasons, mainly social.

the most expensive medical costs usually occur when you are born and when you are near death,
Car insurance is based on age/sex. Young males have higher rates (regardless of driving record).

there are a number of factors including vehicle.

experience rating usually refers to workers liability but can be used for motorists.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 27 Mar 2017 07:52

Some companies did some stuff where they had incentivized quitting smoking using healthcare costs. It was an interesting experiment.

Another major trend now is the high deductible and health saving accounts. Companies incentivize that with seed money and employee also tries cutting down non essential visits

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 27 Mar 2017 09:19

The analogy of car insurance to health insurance is incorrect. Driving a car is a privilege provided by the state government to the individual. It is not right. You don't need car insurance if you don't have a car and don't drive. Health insurance, and more generally health care, is a right and not a privilege.

The real question is cost. No in the US is discussing how to reduce health care cost. Everyone is getting a cut from the insurance company executives, clinics, hospitals, pharmaceutical companies, and doctors. It's all a big rip off that is not subjected to market forces.

shyam · Post by **shyam** » 27 Mar 2017 11:31

Car insurance is used when you have accidents which can result in high expenses. Health insurance is needed to cover high expense problem like surgeries, heart attack, cancer etc. Routine health issues like flu etc. should be affordable for people without insurance. Current health insurances in US are like mandatory insurance for oil change and regular maintenance of cars. Once insurance gets in, automatically the cost goes up for several reasons. Auto body shops love insurance based repairs because they can do very expensive work. So do hospitals.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 27 Mar 2017 11:41

The question I was after is what is it that makes people decry 'must pay fine or buy insurance' part of ACA? Any car driver is required, made to do the same. If caught must pay fine or else show that has insurance. They even check when renewing registration. Can't say it is ok for x but not for y.

shyam · Post by **shyam** » 27 Mar 2017 11:49

If you can't afford / don't want to buy car insurance, you have an to option to sell the car and use public transport. In ACA, you don't have such a choice. It is like an additional tax on you.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Mar 2017 12:37

A anti corruption colour revolution seems to have been ignited in russia

Protests from moscow to vladivostok

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 27 Mar 2017 12:43

Kick back from US Intel/Deep State for possible Russian involvement in US Presidential elections?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Mar 2017 13:31

the kick back was coming anyway. obama might have curtail such activity somewhat.and desire for revenge over crimea and ukraine.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 27 Mar 2017 17:00

If you recall the optics of the last obama-putin meeting - a grim faced obama and a smiling putin,

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 27 Mar 2017 19:25

it's fine and dandy to run a kleptocracy but shooting and killing the political opposition will eventually come back and haunt you.

russia is no longer a deaf and dumb stalinistic brutal regime.

the russians now can see a world with greater possibilities with internet access and permission to travel to various places.

it's hard to swallow that you're living in a broke d*ck hell hole even if you like strong-man leadership/

even in the US we can elect morons but eventually their time in office is up.(as told to me by a cuban, no less.)

how long has putin been in charge?

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 27 Mar 2017 19:30

Even if you don't have a personal car, if you are using a public transport, those have mandatory insurance and costs are passed on right? Can I demand I want to pay lesser ticket fees?

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 27 Mar 2017 19:32

If it is indeed a color revolution / manufactured protest - who is running this? T Rex is a friend of Russia, no? I mean quite literally, he has that order of Lenin thing awarded

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 27 Mar 2017 19:34

uh some of you socialistic fanistas haven't brought up the fact that living in the US generally, not having a car limits your economic opportunities.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Mar 2017 19:39

Giants will fight. Its inevitable law of jungle. No amt of logic or reasoning will stop this periodic manthan.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 27 Mar 2017 19:42

There are some places in US where cars are a disadvantage- you pay more to own one than what you get out of it

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 27 Mar 2017 19:44

Gus wrote:If it is indeed a color revolution / manufactured protest - who is running this? T Rex is a friend of Russia, no? I mean quite literally, he has that order of Lenin thing awarded

shhhush! the CIA is running amok and there is a certain ivy tower in a Center For Free Speech and Conformity that will insist the trumpster doesn't have control of it yet.

GShankar · Post by **GShankar** » 27 Mar 2017 20:29

The reasons for opposition to ACA are manifold (as I understood). Some I think are genuine and others dare i say 'ideological' (bereft of any reason or rather idea)

IMO the better sort of coverage should have been like the one in canada. However, massa is not ready for that since they cannot help the pharma, insurance and legal entities mint as much money as they are doing now.

So, we are left with ACA where the employer has to pay for the coverage - aka employer mandate. The following chart from there - clicky explains this logic (not!).

The argument was(,is and will be) that - this mandate raises the cost of doing business, especially for the small and medium businesses. Politically speaking - almost all of the these SMB types are considered to be tea baggers and you know who they support. All the minimum wage folks are you know who and you also know who they support. So ACA is being looked upon primarily as a political move to consolidate and expand the votebank by the previous potus. So, one of the first executive order of the DTA was to relax the employer mandate criteria is to help one group primarily.

Some game theory folks should model this and publish whether massa will ever have a universal health care (not coverage)

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 27 Mar 2017 20:43

Was it employer mandate or individual mandate?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Mar 2017 20:56

The 1962 Cuban Missile crisis was a seminal event that transformed the US approach towards Soviet Union.
It led to the 1960s Vietnam intervention and the Task Force 74 during 1971 East Pakistan crisis.

Jimmy carter was the one who figured out direct US military intervention in proxy wars is unhelpful.

This led to crafting the response to Soviet intervention in Afghanistan to prevent another Cuba type situation developing.
Its to credit of Reagan that he escalated the low intensity war into a quagmire and defeat of Soviet Union.
Since WWII, FSU had many such quagmires for the West:
- 1950s Korea crisis
- 1956 Suez Crisis (UK-French)
- 1960-1970s Vietnam
- Numerous Arab Israeli wars
Interesting that one big crisis and FSU collapsed like a pack of cards.

GShankar · Post by **GShankar** » 27 Mar 2017 21:36

Gus wrote:Was it employer mandate or individual mandate?

Both are there.

Here is the IRS definition for who should file tax return.

https://www.irs.gov/publications/p17/ch ... 1000170407

Now, even someone getting minimum wage ends up filing tax and should show the coverage details in tax returns. If one chose to not have coverage due to cost being unaffordable, then they should file for exemptions, failing which one pays the fine. This situation only can sustain if the employer paying minimum wage has less than 30 (limit increased now i guess) or so such employees. If there are more employees, then the fine for employer is much higher.

So the trick many employers do is to provide 'such' coverages where the employee contribution is unaffordable. So, they get the acknowledgement from employees declining coverage.

Anyways bottomline is cost and coverage increased but quality (or convenience) of coverage suffered. And politically the narrative became that the govt. is coming after small businesses and individuals.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 27 Mar 2017 22:20

Gus wrote:Even if you don't have a personal car, if you are using a public transport, those have mandatory insurance and costs are passed on right? Can I demand I want to pay lesser ticket fees?

Was going to ask something similar.

I can't really understand what the opposition is to universal healthcare. Seems to be spite of obama/democrats half the time.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 27 Mar 2017 22:24

GShankar - thx for the clarification

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 27 Mar 2017 23:45

TSJones wrote:uh some of you socialistic fanistas haven't brought up the fact that living in the US generally, not having a car limits your economic opportunities.

If you read state law, driving is a privilege, not a guaranteed right.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 27 Mar 2017 23:49

ramana wrote:The 1962 Cuban Missile crisis was a seminal event that transformed the US approach towards Soviet Union.
It led to the 1960s Vietnam intervention and the Task Force 74 during 1971 East Pakistan crisis.

Jimmy carter was the one who figured out direct US military intervention in proxy wars is unhelpful.

This led to crafting the response to Soviet intervention in Afghanistan to prevent another Cuba type situation developing.
Its to credit of Reagan that he escalated the low intensity war into a quagmire and defeat of Soviet Union.
Since WWII, FSU had many such quagmires for the West:
- 1950s Korea crisis
- 1956 Suez Crisis (UK-French)
- 1960-1970s Vietnam
- Numerous Arab Israeli wars
Interesting that one big crisis and FSU collapsed like a pack of cards.

It was actually the domino theory that came up shortly after the Korean War and the biggest proponent of that theory was JFK. JFK also asserted that the Catholics of Vietnam should have control. It was LBJ that went apeshit on the little dark yellow man (SDRE) of east Asia thinking that the Americans will kick the VC in the ass and all will be well again.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 27 Mar 2017 23:57

Mort Walker wrote:
TSJones wrote:uh some of you socialistic fanistas haven't brought up the fact that living in the US generally, not having a car limits your economic opportunities.
If you read state law, driving is a privilege, not a guaranteed right.

You are drawing the wrong understanding from that.

Driving is treated as a privilege and NOT as a personal rights thing, because of the greater good. If I am a bad driver (DUI etc) - I should be stopped from driving because of danger I pose to general public. The govt makes regulations and invests in enforcing it and makes it financially damaging for me to flout rules and keep driving (again for greater good).

Universal healthcare (or something close to that) and personal mandate to help with costs, and treating healthcare as investment etc are similar to that from the PoV of greater good. If for greater good, I am mandated to have insurance - so be it.

The question really should be - how to bring down the costs for all, how to make it efficient etc. Not "I want to get out of this, to hell with you, why should I subsidize you".

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 28 Mar 2017 00:08

Exactly!! Same reason in schools they check for vaccination and nut-cases dont want to take them. It is for the greater good that vaccinations are mandated.

Even the republican court - unfortunately another shibboleth of neutral judges fell a long time back - did not find individual mandate unconstitutional.

And all this complaint of socialism doesnt hold - in that case there should be no unions, no medicare, no govt assistance in anything.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 28 Mar 2017 00:44

Gus wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:
If you read state law, driving is a privilege, not a guaranteed right.
You are drawing the wrong understanding from that.

Driving is treated as a privilege and NOT as a personal rights thing, because of the greater good. If I am a bad driver (DUI etc) - I should be stopped from driving because of danger I pose to general public. The govt makes regulations and invests in enforcing it and makes it financially damaging for me to flout rules and keep driving (again for greater good).

Universal healthcare (or something close to that) and personal mandate to help with costs, and treating healthcare as investment etc are similar to that from the PoV of greater good. If for greater good, I am mandated to have insurance - so be it.

The question really should be - how to bring down the costs for all, how to make it efficient etc. Not "I want to get out of this, to hell with you, why should I subsidize you".

Uhh....that's what I've been trying to say in several posts. I guess you don't understand. Go back about 27 posts to read what I said. Health care is part of the general welfare.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Mar 2017 00:53

Domino theory was a facile explanation for the deep fear from Cuban Missile crisis.
To put it in simple terms, Soviet Union was willing to put nuclear weapons in close proximity to USA with launch codes given to a dictator.
This is the Carthage moment for US.
What it means is SU has to be destroyed.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Mar 2017 00:57

There is a cartoon on Twitter by Ben Garrison.

It depicts a green swamp monster named Deep State (with two arms CIA and NSA) and a whole bunch of personalities in the swamp.