India-France news

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g.sarkar
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Re: India-France news

Post by g.sarkar »

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/man ... 54259.html
Man held over Macron slap was medieval swordsmanship fan
Tangi Salaün and Caroline Pailliez, June 9, 2021

PARIS (Reuters) - The man alleged to have slapped French President Emmanuel Macron in the face ran a club for enthusiasts of medieval swordsmanship and had no previous criminal record, two sources familiar with the investigation said on Wednesday.
A police source identified the suspect as 28-year-old Damien Tarel. Acquaintances in his hometown of Saint-Vallier, in southeastern France, described a man who loved period role-play and did not cause trouble.
Tarel is under investigation for assault against a public official, the local prosecutor said.
Macron, who was on a trip to take the country's pulse after the pandemic and with less than a year to go before the next presidential election, was hit on Tuesday during a walkabout in southern France as he greeted a small crowd of onlookers.
The president reached out to greet a man, who shouted "Down with Macronia" and "Montjoie Saint Denis", the battle cry of the French army when the country was a monarchy, and slapped Macron across the cheek.
A source close to the investigation described Tarel as someone who was "a bit lost, a bit geeky, a bit of a gamer".
Tarel and a second man were still in police custody on Wednesday, the source added. The charge of assault against a public official carries a maximum sentence of three years in jail and a 45,000 euro fine.
.....
Gautam
I am surprised that there has been no Pak connection to this attack.
Cyrano
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Re: India-France news

Post by Cyrano »

Thankfully not everything in this world is connected to Pak.

The idiot in question in my view slapped the French President on an impulse. Lockdown, strained economy, discontent with the "état providence" thats increasingly struggling to provide everything to everyone, citizen identity reduced to opposing the govt of the day, intellectual bankruptcy.... a melange of all these in young 20 somethings (and not only)...

Macron is seen as a crony of capitalism and big business interests by many. Slapping him is a way of taking out frustration bred on confusion and lack of purpose or meaning in life in general. There is no ideology here, just disorientation caused by disillusionment.
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Re: India-France news

Post by Bart S »

Cyrano wrote:Thankfully not everything in this world is connected to Pak.
Actually, any malfeasance anywhere in the world can reliably be connected to Pak. In this case there are widespread celebrations in Paki social media and jihadi circles over this slap, as though it helps them in any way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPJeo6WjHp0
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Re: India-France news

Post by Cyrano »

The incident itself is not connected to Pak, but the Pakis can connect to everything stupid that happens in the world.
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Re: India-France news

Post by KSingh »

In light of AUUSUK time is now for india to court France aggressively.


France is BY FAR the most natural strategic partner for india on the planet. It has all of the technological capabilities of a P5 nation without any of the baggage

US- unstable and untrustworthy
UK- fickle and with a growing paki diaspora, and after BREXIT a power in decline
Russia- a power in decline that is increasingly aligned with China
China-


France has always been shafted by the Anglo-sphere and been treated as an outsider, their interests align almost perfectly with India’s especially in the indo-pacific

They also aren’t as ideologically possessed as other EU nations, in fact under Macron the ‘woke’ culture has started to be attacked and they are one of the few EU nations that is aware of the Islamist risk.


India should be buying U.K. the second tranche of Rafales ASAP and immediately deepen ties into the strategic level- SSNs, ISR, space etc etc.


France is a giant, they can be India’s stepping stone to the big leagues.

Win win
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Re: India-France news

Post by Vips »

I have been arguing the same point for many years now. Uncle Sam cannot be trusted so its lapdog-UK is also untrustworthy. China is our enemy and Russia is its lapdog. So what is the only option left?

Full marks to France for indicating its interest to build a special relationship with India by supplying the Uranium for our reactors post laughing Buddha in the early 80's, its support to India post 98 nuclear blasts and also it threatening to veto any anti-india resolution that china wanted to introduce in the security council after Article 370 was struck down in August 2019.
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Re: India-France news

Post by g.sarkar »

K. Singhji and Vipsji,
All that you say about France is true. But can India afford the moolah that France charges for its equipment?
Gautam
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Re: India-France news

Post by Pratyush »

It is France that needs to court India aggressively.

Given we already have a special relationship with Russians. Coupled with our own domestic capacity, in submarine propulsion.

The offers from RR for co development of jet engines with IP remaining in India. The French have no choice but to match the offers available to India. Or else they will loose this opportunity.

India should ruthlessly exploit the situation in our favor.
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Re: India-France news

Post by Kakkaji »

g.sarkar wrote:K. Singhji and Vipsji,
All that you say about France is true. But can India afford the moolah that France charges for its equipment?
Gautam
I think the price will have to be paid, as the cost of India's strategic independence.

France also paid a high price when, after WW2, they decide to develop their nuclear deterrence and their arms industry independent of the US/ NATO. This was unlike UK that decided to ride the Uncle's coattails. As a result, the UK got its weapons and technology a lot cheaper than France, but it became a poodle in the bargain. In France, from De Gaulle's times all the Governments have continued to pay a higher price to retain their strategic independence from the US.

What India can do is to develop a partner/ co-producer relationship with France, in place of the current supplier/ customer relationship. I think the current GoI is working towards that.

The biggest fly in the ointment will be people like RaGa, Shekhar Gupta etc who will scream at the top of their lungs that the Modi Govt is paying too much for French equipment, comparing it with the price of US equipment, and allege "Chowkidar Chor Hai" again.
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Re: India-France news

Post by Pratyush »

Independence doesn't come by having client relationship with different nations. Independence comes from making the hard decisions and paying the price for going alone.

This thought process that relationship with country x, or y is key to independence is deeply flawed. We are always dependent on those countries and every 10 years or so have to pay through our nose's to preserve this illusion.

A JV is a different issue I don't object to that. But a country with our ambitions should be thinking about being freed from the need to buy from the United Nations to be strategically independent.

Let scorpion be the last submarine that we have from overseas. Let Rafale be the last fighter purchased from overseas.

Let's put in the efforts to build a jet engine.

Let's dare to be truly free.
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Re: India-France news

Post by rsingh »

just one point. Never show a European country that he is your sole provider of technology. keep talking with others as well and keep open mind about about your choIces. Let them to fight each other for you. Meanwhile we have to drag potential deal for 3-4 years and enjoy extremely positive environment.
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Re: India-France news

Post by chetak »

rsingh wrote:just one point. Never show a European country that he is your sole provider of technology. keep talking with others as well and keep open mind about about your choIces. Let them to fight each other for you. Meanwhile we have to drag potential deal for 3-4 years and enjoy extremely positive environment.
Now, more than ever, we need to keep the russkis in the supply chain loop.

If the UK/US can give the racist aussies nuke subs, then their sanctions on India per the alphabet soup conditions is not only idiotic but also null and void.

All bets are off. we have no more restrictions that we need to worry about.

the britshits/amerikis have moved into our backyard without so much as a "by your leave".

The colonial mindset is back. They are attempting to relegate India to being a mere dominion service provider.

We should let the aussies take over the burden of the QUAD logistics and concentrate on our supreme national interests. The colonizers can't have their cake and eat it too. Nothing like a kick in their batwas.

The EU guys are livid at being excluded from the attempts to carve up the region.

The aussies have neither the political heft nor the financial muscle to alter regional power balances. It may also be that the NATO is gradually being down sized, preparatory to being reduced to a tame regional grouping with france and germany fighting for regional supremacy. Brexit is now beginning to make more sense.

It is looking more like a prepared script being played out with new actors and a new subplot and India is being forcibly and strategically bracketed with the no hoper lightweight aussies before being halal cut out of the equation.

The aussie nuke subs will sail with a supervisory uk/us crew for many years to come before the aussies become confident and/or are allowed to operation the subs on their own.

This is a blatant attempt to create a new regional nuclear power, a privilege that will be denied to the russkis/EU/cheeni/India. The next step will be to provide the aussies with aircraft carrier(s) thus begging the question of what may be the new plans for the britshits second aircraft carrier

piddly newzealand, excluded from all these shenanigans has asserted publicly that they will not allow the aussie nuke subs anywhere near their waters/ports and the bye-den govt is rapidly delinking from israel.

ANI@ANI ·1h
Australian PM,our ministers for Foreign Affairs&Defence have spoken to their Indian counterparts to inform them about the decision. The decision has been taken after deep consideration:Australian envoy to India on AUKUS agreement to equip Australia with nuclear-powered submarines
It’s not about provoking particular regime or power, but about ensuring whether we've capabilities that can contribute along with India & other countries to return to type of behavior that threatens peace & security in India-pacific today & in future: Australian High Commission
Australia is striving to attain inclusive regional order where the rights of all states are respected. We want to contribute strategic reassurance measures that ensure no one country believes they can advance their strategic ambitions to conflict: Australian High Commission
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Re: India-France news

Post by Cyrano »

Thanks for putting focus on this.

The ideologies that are the curse of the west today like post modernism, cultural marxism etc are the gifts of French intelligentsia to mankind. Though the politics have been mostly center/center-right since Chiraq, Sarkozy, even Holland and now Macron, the French society is quite left leaning. From time to time these ideologies find triggers for public expression like the yellow vests movement and the recent anti-vaxxers demonstrations.

Notwithstanding all that hubris, India-France cooperation is doing very well, and doing it quietly and efficiently I would say. Both Govts want to keep it that way. The French Govts do not want to antagonise their own leftist ideologues needlessly or complicate their equation with Nato allies and to a lesser extent, Germany & EU. I'd believe that approach is working. There were motivated scandals roused by French media entity "Mediapart" (akin to our Tehelka) on the govt to govt Rafale deal, but the French Govt is having none of it and gave them the boot.

France has been steadfast in supporting Indian in the UN, at the Nuclear Suppliers Group, and will be the first to vote "Oui" to get India a UNSC seat. They have unequivocally backed India against Pak at various times, were on our side on Art 370, CAA etc. They share close concordance with India on the need to fight global islamic terrorism and the (ultra)left<>Islamic nexus. The French have significant misgivings about China and haven't sucked up to them as much as Germany has done just to sell a few thousand BMWs and Mercs.

Coming to French mil stuff being expensive, its a consequence of making high tech innovations for very low volumes by a smallish developed nation. The massive economies of scale that US and a the scale + lower cost synergy that Russia enjoys simply doesn't exist for France. For each product like a Rafale or Scorpene or EPR reactor they make, they have to upfront invest in everything R&D, materials, tooling, design, prototypes, testing, certification, mfg, spares & support structures, logistics etc. - all by themselves, and for 1 small customer which is themselves. That they are making such top notch tech despite everything, is a tribute to their steadfast commitment to strategic autonomy. Its also a consequence of their historic need stay head of Germany in mil tech and at least match them in other spheres.

Given the lefty mindset and the small hi tech skills base, JVs and TOTs for local mfg by India are not easy for France to go with. Because doing so may equate to selling crown jewels and not being able to fund the next cycle of innovation out of its own pockets and at the same time keep the critical skills alive to perform that innovation and then to productise and productionize it. This resistance to TOTs and outside mfg of French designed products is not necessarily driven by a greed for higher profits but by the need for keeping their small ecosystem alive for the future. Local job creation and sustenance is a major electoral issue for ANY French political party and being seen as sending jobs abroad is political suicide. That also the reason France won't be overly keen to help India cross significant tech hurdles like Kavery engine or AIP or mini-N-reactors, AESA radars etc. We need to understand this to make sense of French attitude in such matters. On the flip side, India gets proven technology operationalised and used daily by France instead of brochure ware like Pak-FA.

Of course all this makes the bills quite expensive for India but the present govt has shown flexibility and creativity to work around those problems and find middle ground. Besides, the French have been scrupulously on time, actually ahead of time, in Rafale deliveries despite Covid constraints, and in parallel they have also blocked sub upgrades and Mirage upgrades of Pak. GoI & the services are mighty pleased with that. There is news today that IAF is buying 26 used Mirage 2000s from Dassault, some in flyway readiness and some others with engines but to be completed or used for spares.

The current Indo-French cooperation will surely develop further and endure since it is a long term friendship of two independent, like minded nations, rooted in strategic convergences than tactical conveniences.
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Re: India-France news

Post by Cyrano »

X-post from mil forum:

From: Pourquoi l’Australie a rompu le méga contrat de sous-marins avec la France

Google translated:
Drafted in 2016, signed three years later, the contract between the Australian State and Naval Group, the industrial group owned 62% by the French State and 35% by Thalès, planned to equip Canberra with twelve submarines new generation ocean-going vehicles with diesel-electric engines. Estimated initially at 32 billion euros, the contract had been reassessed to 56 billion, a surge in prices much criticized in Australia and probably not unrelated to the termination of the contract announced by Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison.

This industrial agreement, the culmination of the Franco-Australian strategic partnership, provided for a major transfer of technology and the on-site manufacture of all the submarines with 1,800 jobs at stake, or 60% of the contract value for the Australia. For Naval Group, headquartered in Cherbourg (Manche), this gave hundreds of employees years of work in perspective. The rupture will lead to compensation - the Australian press speaks of 250 million euros - but the shock is severe for the French group, whose 30% of turnover is achieved in 18 foreign countries.

Australia's turnaround "is not a change of mind but of need", argues Scott Morrison, who invokes "national security" to justify the choice of nuclear propulsion, an option that was deliberately ruled out in the contract with France to respect the NPT (nuclear non-proliferation treaty). The Australian turnaround can be explained first by the delay in the execution of the contract with Naval Group, soaring prices and internal controversies. Then by the aggravation of disputes with China, which leads Australia to want to raise its defense posture.

The third and perhaps determining factor is American pressure. The United States, driven out of Kabul on August 31, wants to tighten all its alliances against Beijing. The announcement of the "AUKUS" security pact with Australia and the United Kingdom, of which France is the loser, is timely in an attempt to reassure Washington's determination to defend its partners and its interests in the Indo-Pacific. Beijing was right, denouncing the "irresponsible" sale of submersibles, and "a cold war mentality." By choosing American submarines, nuclear moreover, and which will take a long time to build, Australia is sacrificing its immediate economic interests to line up under the American banner against China. A strategy that is not without risk.

"In good French, it is called a blow in the back", reacted the Minister of Foreign Affairs Jean-Yves Le Drian who speaks of "betrayal of confidence". "This is very bad news for respecting the word given and a serious decision in international politics", added Florence Parly, her Defense colleague. Scott Morrison tries to soften the shock inflicted on the French partner: speaking of "a difficult and disappointing decision for France", the Australian Prime Minister affirms that this one remains "a very important partner". Not sure that this consoles Paris.

French anger is aimed especially at Washington: "This unilateral, brutal, unpredictable decision resembles what Mr. Trump was doing", coldly blurted out Jean-Yves Le Drian: "This is not done between allies, it is quite unbearable". Florence Parly drives the point home: "We are lucid about the way in which the United States regards its allies". In the short term, France sees its Indo-Pacific strategy dented, but reaffirms being "a reliable partner" in a region where it has two million nationals and 7,000 soldiers. For the French ministers, the Australian decision "only reinforces the need to raise the issue of European strategic autonomy loud and clear, including in the Indo-Pacific".
India can step in an strike a deal to ease France's pain and at the same time, rework the specifics to meet Indian Navy's needs. French presidential elections are due in April 2021, Macron is under pressure from lefty parties, his handling of Covid, the pension reforms he attempted earlier, and lately from Green lobbies which are becoming a potent force these days. The French will be much more amenable to find commercial middle ground now than in the past.
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Re: India-France news

Post by KSingh »

g.sarkar wrote:K. Singhji and Vipsji,
All that you say about France is true. But can India afford the moolah that France charges for its equipment?
Gautam
Of course it can. Why think about today’s purchasing power, think about 5/10/20 years down the road when India is 3/4/8 times more prosperous than it is today.

Strategic relationships have to be built with the future in mind, failing to prepare for a time when India is a global power is either going to ensure that that doesn’t come to be or that you’ll be ill-prepared to defend that status when the time comes.


Where China is economically today india will be in 15-20 years and look at what they are able to fund.


Sorry but I don’t really see this as an argument, india isn’t this mediocre poor nation anymore
KSingh
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Re: India-France news

Post by KSingh »

Pratyush wrote:Independence doesn't come by having client relationship with different nations. Independence comes from making the hard decisions and paying the price for going alone.

This thought process that relationship with country x, or y is key to independence is deeply flawed. We are always dependent on those countries and every 10 years or so have to pay through our nose's to preserve this illusion.

A JV is a different issue I don't object to that. But a country with our ambitions should be thinking about being freed from the need to buy from the United Nations to be strategically independent.

Let scorpion be the last submarine that we have from overseas. Let Rafale be the last fighter purchased from overseas.

Let's put in the efforts to build a jet engine.

Let's dare to be truly free.

No one is advocating a buyer/client relationship.


It would have to be a legitimate strategic partnership with JVs across the board and I can see that France is one of the few large nations that is willing to put such things on the table for India uniquely.


The Anglo-sphere is so so intertwined that such things cannot even be fathomed for a nation such as india but France is it’s own boss and will do what is best for them. Today and going forward that will be working with India- access to a huge market and the skills that go with it are not something they’ll turn their noses up at. Increasingly it will be a partnership of equals too and we can see some legitimate JVs emerge where both sides bring something to the table
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Re: India-France news

Post by KL Dubey »

KSingh wrote:Where China is economically today india will be in 15-20 years and look at what they are able to fund.

Sorry but I don’t really see this as an argument, india isn’t this mediocre poor nation anymore
France, UK, etc are by now "also-rans" in every sense of the word. As India grows larger and with a strong continuing government, there will be an inevitable "gravitational pull" and our main problem will be "whom to pick and choose".

Modi is taking absolutely the right approach - developing national strength on all counts.

You're right - people keep talking about becoming a $10T economy in the future, but we just became a $10T economy this month.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... _GDP_(PPP)

The goal for the next 10 years would be to displace the next higher player (i.e. USA) and to continue growing faster than China. We should be energized by the strong possibility that come 2040, the "G-2" will be India and China.

We needn't worry about a few piddling kangalu (Chinese pronunciation onlee, translates loosely to "beggar" in Hindi) submarines. From what I read, USA and UK will spend 1.5 years just trying to figure out whether kangalus actually have the capability to manage nuclear technology. They are still doing what the convicts were doing in the 1800s: mining raw materials and shipping them out.
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Re: India-France news

Post by titash »

Cyrano wrote:Thanks for putting focus on this.

The ideologies that are the curse of the west today like post modernism, cultural marxism etc are the gifts of French intelligentsia to mankind. Though the politics have been mostly center/center-right since Chiraq, Sarkozy, even Holland and now Macron, the French society is quite left leaning. From time to time these ideologies find triggers for public expression like the yellow vests movement and the recent anti-vaxxers demonstrations.

Notwithstanding all that hubris, India-France cooperation is doing very well, and doing it quietly and efficiently I would say. Both Govts want to keep it that way. The French Govts do not want to antagonise their own leftist ideologues needlessly or complicate their equation with Nato allies and to a lesser extent, Germany & EU. I'd believe that approach is working. There were motivated scandals roused by French media entity "Mediapart" (akin to our Tehelka) on the govt to govt Rafale deal, but the French Govt is having none of it and gave them the boot.

France has been steadfast in supporting Indian in the UN, at the Nuclear Suppliers Group, and will be the first to vote "Oui" to get India a UNSC seat. They have unequivocally backed India against Pak at various times, were on our side on Art 370, CAA etc. They share close concordance with India on the need to fight global islamic terrorism and the (ultra)left<>Islamic nexus. The French have significant misgivings about China and haven't sucked up to them as much as Germany has done just to sell a few thousand BMWs and Mercs.

Coming to French mil stuff being expensive, its a consequence of making high tech innovations for very low volumes by a smallish developed nation. The massive economies of scale that US and a the scale + lower cost synergy that Russia enjoys simply doesn't exist for France. For each product like a Rafale or Scorpene or EPR reactor they make, they have to upfront invest in everything R&D, materials, tooling, design, prototypes, testing, certification, mfg, spares & support structures, logistics etc. - all by themselves, and for 1 small customer which is themselves. That they are making such top notch tech despite everything, is a tribute to their steadfast commitment to strategic autonomy. Its also a consequence of their historic need stay head of Germany in mil tech and at least match them in other spheres.

Given the lefty mindset and the small hi tech skills base, JVs and TOTs for local mfg by India are not easy for France to go with. Because doing so may equate to selling crown jewels and not being able to fund the next cycle of innovation out of its own pockets and at the same time keep the critical skills alive to perform that innovation and then to productise and productionize it. This resistance to TOTs and outside mfg of French designed products is not necessarily driven by a greed for higher profits but by the need for keeping their small ecosystem alive for the future. Local job creation and sustenance is a major electoral issue for ANY French political party and being seen as sending jobs abroad is political suicide. That also the reason France won't be overly keen to help India cross significant tech hurdles like Kavery engine or AIP or mini-N-reactors, AESA radars etc. We need to understand this to make sense of French attitude in such matters. On the flip side, India gets proven technology operationalised and used daily by France instead of brochure ware like Pak-FA.

Of course all this makes the bills quite expensive for India but the present govt has shown flexibility and creativity to work around those problems and find middle ground. Besides, the French have been scrupulously on time, actually ahead of time, in Rafale deliveries despite Covid constraints, and in parallel they have also blocked sub upgrades and Mirage upgrades of Pak. GoI & the services are mighty pleased with that. There is news today that IAF is buying 26 used Mirage 2000s from Dassault, some in flyway readiness and some others with engines but to be completed or used for spares.

The current Indo-French cooperation will surely develop further and endure since it is a long term friendship of two independent, like minded nations, rooted in strategic convergences than tactical conveniences.
Very nicely put Cyrano-ji
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Re: India-France news

Post by Manish_P »

Cyrano wrote:...

The current Indo-French cooperation will surely develop further and endure since it is a long term friendship of two independent, like minded nations, rooted in strategic convergences than tactical conveniences.
No reflection on you, Cyrano ji, and certainly no offense intended, but the above Para gave me an instant sense of Deja Vu (is that a French word BTW?)

This is the exact same para almost word for word, I read some 5 years ago in the US-India thread by a US based BRFite (the word there was 'Indo-US' of course :) )
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Re: India-France news

Post by Cyrano »

Actually, I would have written the same about Indo-US based on logic and hope 5 years ago. But Trump's narrow election was a black swan event. His stint has left America deeply polarised and it has led fringe extemist voices on both sides Rep & Dem to become mainstream. We have white-Xtian-racists pitted against woke-lefty-anarchists.

I currently do not see such a strong polarisation in France, and while a back swan election result is not impossible, there is no credible lefty opponent to Macron. The lack of fierce debate in the French society with less than 8 months to go for the next Presidential election makes me think Macron will get re-elected barring unforeseen events. If an IsT attack happens before April, Macron's 2nd term will be guaranteed.

Besides, French Govts cannot be seen as unreliable and prone to doing 180° turns on major policies and mil sale commitments. Its already hard enough to get contracts, sometimes even signed contracts are broken like the Aussies have just done. France needs friendly client nations with $$$ like India to buy from them. So the long term outlook is not prone to significant change.
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Re: India-France news

Post by Manish_P »

Cyrano wrote:..France needs friendly client nations with $$$ like India to buy from them...
Exactly that, Sir!

France also, like the US, has and still does look at Bharat exactly that way - a purely transactional relationship, helped by having more shared tactical interests.

A long term resurgent Desh will always be a competitor to the current ruling order - hence no real ToT on turbofans, cryogenics, for eg. How can France sell to India if when we successfully build the AMCA, the Ghatak, our own Diesel-electric Subs...

So we recognize this talk about shared vision and goals and natural convergences and what not in flowery, diplomat-speak language to be simply lip-service for the nice visuals. While it is just plain hard-nosed business in the back ground.

Again, no offense intended, this is the just the way of the world. Always was, always will be.
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Re: India-France news

Post by Aldonkar »

Kakkaji wrote:
g.sarkar wrote:K. Singhji and Vipsji,
All that you say about France is true. But can India afford the moolah that France charges for its equipment?
Gautam
I think the price will have to be paid, as the cost of India's strategic independence.

France also paid a high price when, after WW2, they decide to develop their nuclear deterrence and their arms industry independent of the US/ NATO. This was unlike UK that decided to ride the Uncle's coattails. As a result, the UK got its weapons and technology a lot cheaper than France, but it became a poodle in the bargain. In France, from De Gaulle's times all the Governments have continued to pay a higher price to retain their strategic independence from the US.

What India can do is to develop a partner/ co-producer relationship with France, in place of the current supplier/ customer relationship. I think the current GoI is working towards that.

The biggest fly in the ointment will be people like RaGa, Shekhar Gupta etc who will scream at the top of their lungs that the Modi Govt is paying too much for French equipment, comparing it with the price of US equipment, and allege "Chowkidar Chor Hai" again.
During WW2 the UK has an atomic bomb program long before the US entered the war. Later, after Pearl Harbour, the UK decided to combine their program with the the US with the UK staff transferred to the US as it was safer being out of range of the Luftwaffe.
The UK also attempted to sabotage (with some success) the Nazi atomic program which was based on using "heavy water" as a moderator in the manufacture of enriched Uranium. Look up the raid on Trondheim (occupied Norway) where the Nazis were sourcing their heavy water.
I don't know what proportion of the effort was British but it was significant, so there was no "riding on coattails" as you suggest. After the war, there were a couple of very significant leaks from this program (look up the Rosenbergs and also Klaus Fuchs), which both sides (UK and US) losing confidence in the other and they went their separate ways but still cooperated.
The UK set up a company called "The British Non-Ferrous Metals Association", which was a front for their research. For a short time , in the late 60's, I actually worked for this company before going to University. I had no inkling what the real purpose of their activity was.
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Re: India-France news

Post by Cyrano »

No no sir; you are reducing France-India relations to just mil sales which have happened and ToTs which haven't. There are other convergences like fighting IsT and resisting American hegemony which also bind us. Geographic situation makes China less of a direct threat to France compared to India, but a threat nevertheless. India and France are two level 2 powers that are trying to pursue their national goals under the shadow of two level 1 powers US and China. This situation will throw up more new convergences in the times ahead.
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Re: India-France news

Post by Avid »

In terms on Indian interests -- I am unsure how our interests are served by aligning for next sub deal with France? I think we ought to learn from the Aussie deal in terms of planning, and also the behavior of supplier. Above all else -- our own interests come first.

Here are some of the reasons that Aussies turned and begged US/UK for assistance regarding the subs acquisition.

1) Originally, the French deal was AU$50 billion (approx US$36 billion) for 12 submarines. Diesel/AIP subs @ $3 billion/each -- which only a shade less in cost than Virginia Class which is US$3.4 billion per unit, and more than Astute at approx $2.5. French wanted to to escalate the pricing by almost 80% to AU$89 billion! This would have put cost per sub beyond anything reasonable (not to mention they were not reasonable to begin with).

2) The first sub was potentially going to be delivered in mid-2030s. Over the next 15 years -- what is Australia supposed to do? The conflict nature and probabilities have escalated sharply over the last 5 years since Australia signed the contract in 2016. Faced with no change in delivery timeline and what appears to be an extortion scheme for price escalation of 80% and a submarine it does not think will meet its needs (see the map with SSK/SSN comparison with respect to time at station for different choke points).

3) If Aussies have decided to induct tomahawks in both surface ships and submarines -- it only makes more sense for them to go with a platform that allows more easy interoperability and less headache with integration.

IMHO, as Indians we should be glad for arrival of a potent platform in the Pacific, which draws PRC assets away from us.

End of the day -- this is all about each nation's own interests. For those who recall the extensive discussion on INS Vikramaditya's refit cost escalations and the hand wringing, and arguments on BR to seriously consider the US offer of refit of Kitty Hawk.... Aussie have just gone through the very same thing.

---
Adding some perspective with costs of similar submarines:
* Soryu Class (Japan): Toryu, which was launched Nov 2019 -- the total procurement cost was approx US$ 635 million
* Dosan Ahn Changho (S. Korea): with VLS tubes, the first one cost ~$900 million (also a contender for P75I)
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Re: India-France news

Post by ldev »

Avid wrote:I For those who recall the extensive discussion on INS Vikramaditya's refit cost escalations and the hand wringing, and arguments on BR to seriously consider the US offer of refit of Kitty Hawk.... Aussie have just gone through the very same thing.

---
Adding some perspective with costs of similar submarines:
* Soryu Class (Japan): Toryu, which was launched Nov 2019 -- the total procurement cost was approx US$ 635 million
* Dosan Ahn Changho (S. Korea): with VLS tubes, the first one cost ~$900 million (also a contender for P75I)
The Aussie Attack submarine deal with France is like India's Vikramaditya saga but on supercharged steroids :) And each Attack submarine was going to cost Australia USD 5 billion!!

And South Korea recently did an SLBM launch from their submarine.
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Re: India-France news

Post by anishns »

Wasn't France the one lobbying for arms exports to China?
Check out this perspective:

Avid
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Re: India-France news

Post by Avid »

ldev wrote:
Avid wrote:I For those who recall the extensive discussion on INS Vikramaditya's refit cost escalations and the hand wringing, and arguments on BR to seriously consider the US offer of refit of Kitty Hawk.... Aussie have just gone through the very same thing.

---
Adding some perspective with costs of similar submarines:
* Soryu Class (Japan): Toryu, which was launched Nov 2019 -- the total procurement cost was approx US$ 635 million
* Dosan Ahn Changho (S. Korea): with VLS tubes, the first one cost ~$900 million (also a contender for P75I)
The Aussie Attack submarine deal with France is like India's Vikramaditya saga but on supercharged steroids :) And each Attack submarine was going to cost Australia USD 5 billion!!

And South Korea recently did an SLBM launch from their submarine.

Mind you US$5 billion per sub, and not arriving till mid 2030s.

SK SLBM launch got me intrigued because it seems to be a similar hybrid approach as Arihant, but with diesel/AIP. Waiting to see how P75I plays out.
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Re: India-France news

Post by g.sarkar »

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/17/politics ... index.html
France recalls its ambassadors to the US and Australia over new national security partnership
Jim Acosta, Kylie Atwood and Maegan Vazquez, CNN, Fri September 17, 2021

The French government has immediately recalled its ambassador to the US for consultation in response to the recently announced national security partnership with the United Kingdom and Australia. Philippe Étienne, the French ambassador to the US, confirmed the news when reached for comment. In a statement, Jean-Yves Le Drian, the French minister for Europe and foreign affairs, said Friday that the move was made at the request of President Emmanuel Macron.
"This extraordinary decision reflects the exceptional seriousness of the announcements made on September 15 by Australia and the United States," Le Drian said. "The abandonment of the ocean-class submarine project that Australia and France had been working on since 2016 and the announcement of a new partnership with the United States aimed at studying the possibility of future cooperation on nuclear-powered submarines constitute unacceptable behavior among allies and partners; their consequences affect the very concept we have of our alliances, our partnerships, and the importance of the Indo-Pacific for Europe."
It's believed to be the first time the French have resorted to such a move in modern times, a French official told CNN. The New York Times was first to report the news of the recalls.
The US has been in contact with the French government regarding the decision to recall its envoy to Washington for consultation in Paris, the White House said. "We have been in close touch with our French partners on their decision to recall Ambassador Etienne to Paris for consultations. We understand their position and will continue to be engaged in the coming days to resolve our differences, as we have done at other points over the course of our long alliance. France is our oldest ally and one of our strongest partners, and we share a long history of shared democratic values and a commitment to working together to address global challenges," National Security Council spokesperson Emily Horne said in a statement.
The French government said earlier this week that it felt betrayed when Australia pulled out of their existing multibillion-dollar defense deal, agreeing instead to attain nuclear-powered submarines through a new deal with the United States and the United Kingdom.
The effort to provide Australia with nuclear-powered submarines -- a major step toward countering China as President Joe Biden works to build international backing for his approach to Beijing -- is part of a new trilateral partnership among the United States, Australia and the United Kingdom, dubbed "AUKUS."France stands to lose the equivalent of $65 billion US dollars from an existing deal to provide Australia with conventional, diesel-powered submarines.
.....
Gautam
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Re: India-France news

Post by Pratyush »

France has some nerve.

They sell an incomplete design to Australia. The Indian scorpean class class is delayed and over budget.

God knows what is the status of the Brazillian sub program.

They are now acting angry.

Wah Wah.
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Re: India-France news

Post by Srutayus »

It is also the way the deal was terminated. And the way the French found out. India must be wary of the Quad.
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Re: India-France news

Post by yensoy »

Avid wrote:
ldev wrote: And South Korea recently did an SLBM launch from their submarine.
SK SLBM launch got me intrigued because it seems to be a similar hybrid approach as Arihant, but with diesel/AIP. Waiting to see how P75I plays out.
It's a 7.x meter draft submarine. K4 is 12 meters long. Just because the SoKo sub has a VLS (does it?) doesn't make it suitable for missiles with the range/warheads we need for strategic deterrence.
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Re: India-France news

Post by Pratyush »

Within the South Korean operational concept of operations. A shorter range BM is not going to be greatly handicapped. Because most of the potential targets are under 1000 kms from most patrol points of the submarine.

Having said that, our own operations concept can in theory do the job with a similar boat.
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Re: India-France news

Post by chetak »

Aldonkar wrote:
Kakkaji wrote:
I think the price will have to be paid, as the cost of India's strategic independence.

France also paid a high price when, after WW2, they decide to develop their nuclear deterrence and their arms industry independent of the US/ NATO. This was unlike UK that decided to ride the Uncle's coattails. As a result, the UK got its weapons and technology a lot cheaper than France, but it became a poodle in the bargain. In France, from De Gaulle's times all the Governments have continued to pay a higher price to retain their strategic independence from the US.

What India can do is to develop a partner/ co-producer relationship with France, in place of the current supplier/ customer relationship. I think the current GoI is working towards that.

The biggest fly in the ointment will be people like RaGa, Shekhar Gupta etc who will scream at the top of their lungs that the Modi Govt is paying too much for French equipment, comparing it with the price of US equipment, and allege "Chowkidar Chor Hai" again.
During WW2 the UK has an atomic bomb program long before the US entered the war. Later, after Pearl Harbour, the UK decided to combine their program with the the US with the UK staff transferred to the US as it was safer being out of range of the Luftwaffe.
The UK also attempted to sabotage (with some success) the Nazi atomic program which was based on using "heavy water" as a moderator in the manufacture of enriched Uranium. Look up the raid on Trondheim (occupied Norway) where the Nazis were sourcing their heavy water.
I don't know what proportion of the effort was British but it was significant, so there was no "riding on coattails" as you suggest. After the war, there were a couple of very significant leaks from this program (look up the Rosenbergs and also Klaus Fuchs), which both sides (UK and US) losing confidence in the other and they went their separate ways but still cooperated.
The UK set up a company called "The British Non-Ferrous Metals Association", which was a front for their research. For a short time , in the late 60's, I actually worked for this company before going to University. I had no inkling what the real purpose of their activity was.
Aldonkar ji,

the britshits were indeed riding on the ameriki coat tails as hard as they could and became a pet ameriki poodle during the 1942 -1943 period itself

1943 was a year when uncle churchill tried to bulldoze FDR with respect to the actual conduct of the war. He even concocted lies about India which he tried to use to influence FDR and also had many disagreements with FDR but FDR held firm

the amerikis and the britshits planned to be the only ones after WWII to have the bomb and they did not want anyone else muscling in on their plans to stop or degrade russia's powers.

the amerikis supplied the vital vitamin M for the manhattan project, vitamin M that the britshits did not have but still uncle churchill wanted the amerikis to pool resources and share the development of the bomb.

FDR actually threatened to refuse to share the development of the bomb with the britshits and uncle churchill panicked. uncle churchill had some vague and faulty notions about how to run the war and he was not in agreement with the allied forces' Normandie landings.

uncle churchill wanted to fight his way in from italy and approach the continent from that direction, a plan that made no sense to the amerikis.

sly uncle churchill failed to mention many things in his later writings and wilfully went out of his way to suppress events as they actually happened.

I had saved this snippet quite some time ago but couldn't find the reference on my portable drives

this is the lies that churchill concocted to convince FDR as to why India was not to be given her freedom/independence
Harry Hopkins, having handed over the rest of the President’s cable, now witnessed Churchill’s meltdown.

Hopkins, sickly but willing to do anything for his revered president, had traveled to London with General Marshall to ensure that U.S. planning to aid the Russians was not stymied by British bureaucracy and timidity. The spat over India, however, now banished European war plans to a back seat—Hopkins later telling Robert Sherwood that no “suggestions from the President to the Prime Minister in the entire war were so wrathfully received as those relating to solution of the Indian problem.”37 To the secretary of war, Colonel Stimson, Hopkins even confided, on his return to Washington, “how a string of cuss words lasted for two hours in the middle of the night” in London38—with Churchill adamant he would rather resign than permit an American president to dictate British imperial conduct. It was no idle threat.

The fact was, Churchill seemed exhausted, as all around him had noticed. He was drinking more, sleeping less, and busying himself in the minutiae of military operations across the world that he seemed unable or unwilling to delegate. The Australian prime minister had made it clear he had lost confidence in Churchill’s leadership, and the Pacific War Council in London was entering its “death throes”—soon to be entirely replaced by the Pacific War Council in Washington. Japanese naval forces were roaming at will like sea monsters off the coast of India—and British forces were in helter-skelter retreat in northern Burma, abandoning their Indian units to be killed or captured. General Rommel was once again forcing British Empire troops to retreat in Libya.

However, as one of Churchill’s own “closest and most affectionate associates” later confided to Hopkins’s biographer, “the President might have known that India was one subject on which Winston would never move a yard.”39 Certainly Indian self-government, as Robert Sherwood recalled Hopkins telling him, was “one subject on which the normal, broad-minded, good-humored, give-and-take attitude which prevailed between the two statesmen was stopped cold”—indeed Churchill, rounding on the hapless Hopkins, told him he “would see the Empire in ruins and himself buried under them before he would concede the right of any American, however great and illustrious a friend, to make any suggestion as to what he should do about India.”40 Calling in his stenographer, the Prime Minister was determined to put his feelings in writing. To the President he therefore dictated a nasty rebuke.

“A Nationalist Government such as you indicate would almost certainly demand,” he deceitfully claimed, “first, the recall of all Indian troops from the Middle East, and secondly, they might in my opinion make an armistice with Japan on the basis of free transit through India to Karachi of Japanese forces and supplies.”41

For Churchill to send such unqualified “opinions” was sailing close to dishonesty. Both claims were specious, as Churchill and the viceroy (with whom Churchill was in secret correspondence, bypassing Sir Stafford Cripps) well knew—contradicting the assurances Nehru had given Cripps and the President’s “Special Emissary,” Colonel Johnson.
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Re: India-France news

Post by Aldonkar »

chetak wrote:
Aldonkar ji,

the britshits were indeed riding on the ameriki coat tails as hard as they could and became a pet ameriki poodle during the 1942 -1943 period itself

1943 was a year when uncle churchill tried to bulldoze FDR with respect to the actual conduct of the war. He even concocted lies about India which he tried to use to influence FDR and also had many disagreements with FDR but FDR held firm

the amerikis and the britshits planned to be the only ones after WWII to have the bomb and they did not want anyone else muscling in on their plans to stop or degrade russia's powers.

the amerikis supplied the vital vitamin M for the manhattan project, vitamin M that the britshits did not have but still uncle churchill wanted the amerikis to pool resources and share the development of the bomb.

FDR actually threatened to refuse to share the development of the bomb with the britshits and uncle churchill panicked. uncle churchill had some vague and faulty notions about how to run the war and he was not in agreement with the allied forces' Normandie landings.

uncle churchill wanted to fight his way in from italy and approach the continent from that direction, a plan that made no sense to the amerikis.

sly uncle churchill failed to mention many things in his later writings and wilfully went out of his way to suppress events as they actually happened.

I had saved this snippet quite some time ago but couldn't find the reference on my portable drives

this is the lies that churchill concocted to convince FDR as to why India was not to be given her freedom/independence
Harry Hopkins, having handed over the rest of the President’s cable, now witnessed Churchill’s meltdown.

Hopkins, sickly but willing to do anything for his revered president, had traveled to London with General Marshall to ensure that U.S. planning to aid the Russians was not stymied by British bureaucracy and timidity. The spat over India, however, now banished European war plans to a back seat—Hopkins later telling Robert Sherwood that no “suggestions from the President to the Prime Minister in the entire war were so wrathfully received as those relating to solution of the Indian problem.”37 To the secretary of war, Colonel Stimson, Hopkins even confided, on his return to Washington, “how a string of cuss words lasted for two hours in the middle of the night” in London38—with Churchill adamant he would rather resign than permit an American president to dictate British imperial conduct. It was no idle threat.

The fact was, Churchill seemed exhausted, as all around him had noticed. He was drinking more, sleeping less, and busying himself in the minutiae of military operations across the world that he seemed unable or unwilling to delegate. The Australian prime minister had made it clear he had lost confidence in Churchill’s leadership, and the Pacific War Council in London was entering its “death throes”—soon to be entirely replaced by the Pacific War Council in Washington. Japanese naval forces were roaming at will like sea monsters off the coast of India—and British forces were in helter-skelter retreat in northern Burma, abandoning their Indian units to be killed or captured. General Rommel was once again forcing British Empire troops to retreat in Libya.

However, as one of Churchill’s own “closest and most affectionate associates” later confided to Hopkins’s biographer, “the President might have known that India was one subject on which Winston would never move a yard.”39 Certainly Indian self-government, as Robert Sherwood recalled Hopkins telling him, was “one subject on which the normal, broad-minded, good-humored, give-and-take attitude which prevailed between the two statesmen was stopped cold”—indeed Churchill, rounding on the hapless Hopkins, told him he “would see the Empire in ruins and himself buried under them before he would concede the right of any American, however great and illustrious a friend, to make any suggestion as to what he should do about India.”40 Calling in his stenographer, the Prime Minister was determined to put his feelings in writing. To the President he therefore dictated a nasty rebuke.

“A Nationalist Government such as you indicate would almost certainly demand,” he deceitfully claimed, “first, the recall of all Indian troops from the Middle East, and secondly, they might in my opinion make an armistice with Japan on the basis of free transit through India to Karachi of Japanese forces and supplies.”41

For Churchill to send such unqualified “opinions” was sailing close to dishonesty. Both claims were specious, as Churchill and the viceroy (with whom Churchill was in secret correspondence, bypassing Sir Stafford Cripps) well knew—contradicting the assurances Nehru had given Cripps and the President’s “Special Emissary,” Colonel Johnson.
]
First of all, I hope I have not messed up the format in my reply. I wanted to just quote your rant about Churchill in my reply.

I will start off saying that I totally agree with you about Churchill's character. He was a racist, imperialist, entitled aristocrat, drunken and suffered from depression, but he was an inspirational speaker and was a good wartime leader for the UK. The people of Britain realised this and as so as soon as the war was over, they dumped him and turned to Atlee, who gave India her independence, though not willingly as India was the ATM that financed the Empire.

I do use one quote from Churchill, where he says "he would not apologise to the native Americans or the Black Australians for the white man taking their country from them. They had to give way to a superior race." I use this when I am faced with people who moan about "immigrants" replacing whites in Europe.

Only your first para is relevant to my post. So I suggest you Google "Tube Alloys" which was the British atomic bomb project. You will see that it predated Churchill becoming PM and had many German scientists (all refugees) among their number.

Most of this discussion is off topic for this board so I will not say any more.
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Re: India-France news

Post by Vayutuvan »

Cyrano wrote: fringe extemist voices on both sides Rep & Dem to become mainstream. We have white-Xtian-racists pitted against woke-lefty-anarchists
Both groups are pretty much mainstream now. They are not fringe anymore.
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Re: India-France news

Post by KSingh »

Pratyush wrote:France has some nerve.

They sell an incomplete design to Australia. The Indian scorpean class class is delayed and over budget.

God knows what is the status of the Brazillian sub program.

They are now acting angry.

Wah Wah.
France was notified apparently an hour before AUUKUS was announced that the legally binding contract they had was being unilaterally cancelled (a matter of days after PM Morrison had reaffirmed Australia’s commitment to the strategic partnership with the French) and on top of this their closest strategic partners had conspired behind their backs to offer a rival product.


The salt in the wound is that Australians had been asking for a SSK that forced the French to spend money and effort to modify their Barracuda design and all of a sudden Aussies are demanding a SSN.


It’s the underhand and inconsistent nature that France has legitimate reason to feel aggrieved. You expect this kind of treachery from your rivals but from your treaty allies? It’s just bad form all around.
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Re: India-France news

Post by KSingh »

MODI:Spoke with my friend President @EmmanuelMacron on the situation in Afghanistan. We also discussed closer collaboration between India and France in the Indo-Pacific. We place great value on our Strategic Partnership with France, including in the UNSC.

https://twitter.com/narendramodi/status ... 60877?s=21

Just before he goes to Washington for Quad leaders’ summit


Feels like something is cooking
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Re: India-France news

Post by Dilbu »

This is what Russia has to say through RT.
AUKUS fallout: France pledges to ‘defend truly multilateral international order’ with India amid diplomatic row with Australia-US
The French and Indian foreign ministers spoke over the phone on Saturday, vowing to deepen their strategic partnership now that Paris’ ties with the US and Australia have been strained by a submarine deal debacle.
France and India will “work on a joint program of concrete actions to defend a truly multilateral international order,” French Foreign Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian and his Indian counterpart, Subrahmanyam Jaishankar, said in a statement on Saturday. Released by the French foreign ministry, it also said the two had discussed the situation in Afghanistan and the Indo-Pacific.
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Re: India-France news

Post by Avid »

yensoy wrote:
Avid wrote: SK SLBM launch got me intrigued because it seems to be a similar hybrid approach as Arihant, but with diesel/AIP. Waiting to see how P75I plays out.
It's a 7.x meter draft submarine. K4 is 12 meters long. Just because the SoKo sub has a VLS (does it?) doesn't make it suitable for missiles with the range/warheads we need for strategic deterrence.
Is P75I's goal strategic deterrence? Isn't that what Arihant class is for?

My understanding was the SoKo is positioning its offering as something capable of launching BrahMos / Nirbhay.

And yes -- KS-III has VLS, which is what was used for their SLBM test.

This is the schematic they are using for advertising its utility for IN
Image
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... c-missile/
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Re: India-France news

Post by KSingh »

TASL-Airbus deal to be signed tomorrow

https://m.economictimes.com/news/defenc ... 415492.cms


Convenient timing for both sides, France gets gifted a ‘win’ after AUUKUS


Let’s see what else GoI is cooking up with French
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