Indian Interests_2

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KLNMurthy
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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby KLNMurthy » 17 Feb 2021 08:16

sudarshan wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote:Ok, let me take a shot at “snappy (or snappy-ish) answers to stupid white-man-is-great questions” (as the late MAD magazine might have put it).

“British introduced electoral democracy to India.”

No, what they introduced was patriarchal feudalism with votes overwhelmingly restricted to male feudals. Even those votes were meaningless, as they could be, and were, arbitrarily vetoed by the white rulers.
....


...
So Murthyji, your post is just in the right format, as far as I'm concerned. If it is possible, however, to modify your primary rejoinder to be more quantitative, then please go for it. Something like "the British 'democratic' system only allowed X % of the MALE population to have a say in the electoral process, it was independent India which expanded that fraction to 100%, and also allowed FEMALES to vote." This is just a suggestion from my side, and it is not always possible to quantify - the only guideline is - the rejoinder should be as effective as possible.


My info on just who was allowed to vote under the 1909 act and the 1935 act is from memory of a web search I did some years ago for my own curiosity. I was trying to find out the validity of the statement that in the 1946(?) state elections, Muslims voted overwhelmingly for Muslim League which meant they voted for Partition. I wondered how many of the votes came from Ashraf (TFTA) Muslims and how many from Ajlaf (native, SDRE) Muslims. In that context I found out that only college graduates could vote, along with property owners etc. (therefore I concluded that no one actually asked the Ajlafs what they thought about Partition; the electoral choice was almost 100% from ashrafs. Sure, in hindsight we could imagine that they would have voted for the Muslim League, but the fact is that they didn't because they couldn't). But as I said, I couldn't find the exact details. I couldn't get hold of the text of the Acts, but got some info from secondary sources about the eligible voters, which is what I posted above. I believe it to be accurate (I knew going in that it was not Universal Adult Franchise as specified in the Constitution). For the 1935 Act, Dalits (some?) got the right to vote, as we can infer from the fact that Gandhi went on a fast to stop separate Dalit electorates.

I am so pleased that you caught on to the importance of the structure / format of the rejoinder. Even if all my facts turn out to be wrong (unlikely I think), the format (or something like it) is still useful.

-- quick and sharp rejection of the contention. Establish an alternate conceptualization that devalues the original assertion and shifts the ground (it was not democracy, but actually feudalism and patriarchy)

-- Supporting details. Use sparingly. Mainly meant for giving our SDRE mujahids the confidence that there is solid research backing up their rejection and reconceptualization.

-- Return to the original value-based assertion ('democracy' as a value) and seize the territory with a counter-assertion: India gave itself democracy. It was a true "democratic revolution."

-- Reverse the power relationship: India is superior and the west is inferior when it comes to democracy.

-- Throughout, employ civil, but tough and unequivocal language that may border on harsh ("only a fool will believe that brits brought democracy to India") but doesn't quite cross over into an attack. Avoid at all costs servile circumlocutions like, "I am constrained to point out ..." They make the mujahid sound weak and intimidated.

For different issues, the components would need adjustment based on facts, our purpose, nature of the interlocutor etc.

I like your emphasis on reaching the target audience of the BIF. I'll add that our SDRE mujahids can also improve by training themselves with this or some other systematic approach to propaganda and disputation. Currently, as I said in another thread, their energies are getting dissipated in frustration and lashing out in the face of pure lying and gaslighting by the BIF. Sometimes lashing out is appropriate, but the primary emphasis should be in having an absolute unshakeable conviction that we are right as well as righteous. Similar to how Abrahamics see their religions vis-a-vis Hinduism. Since we are not Abrahamics, we will use fact-correction, context-setting and reconceptualization to generate this conviction in ourselves and our mujahids.

sudarshan
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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby sudarshan » 19 Feb 2021 05:41

^ That does seem like a topic worthy of more research.

In the meantime, even facts seem to change. The oft-quoted number for India's literacy in 1947 was 11%. Now the current "accepted" sources such as Wiki show India's literacy as 16% in 1941, and 18% in 1951. There's no real info on literacy in British India vs. princely states, except for that one essay by Jabez T. Sutherland. Who was Jabez T. Sutherland? It seems there was a Jabez G. Sutherland, who was a politician and judge from Michigan state, who died in 1902.

Jabez T. Sutherland, OTOH:

JABEZ T. SUNDERLAND, M. A., D. D.

Former President of the India Information Bureau of America and
Editor of Young India (New York). Twice Special Commissioner
and Lecturer to India. Author of “India, America and
World Brotherhood,” “Causes of Famine in India,”
etc., etc.


This was the person who published that article on living conditions in India in 1908. It seems like an honest perspective, pointing out all the faults and propaganda of the British rule in India.

There's a big jump in literacy between 1931 and 1941, from 9% to 16%. Got to see what caused it (change in surveying methods, inclusion of princely states...). The pace of change was definitely higher 1951 onwards, despite a greater pace of population growth.

Even 18% literacy in 1951 is a pretty revealing statistic by itself. There are a couple of sources which show lower numbers. Establishing the authenticity of the sources is itself a daunting task.

But the majority of the task of educating India definitely happened after 1951, even if we accept 18% in '51, from there to 75% in 2011 is a phenomenal achievement. It would be over 80% now, in 2021.

In the meantime, here's a map of British India, for the other claim that the "British united India." This map is seen in various places on the 'net. It seems the original source is from the Edinburgh Geographical Institute, circa 1940. However, this same map has been variously claimed as representing India in 1857, 1900, 1936, 1940, 1947... in different sites. I think the 1940 date seems most likely.

https://www.mapsofindia.com/maps/india/ ... ionmap.htm

https://twitter.com/RareHistorical/stat ... 64/photo/1
Last edited by sudarshan on 19 Feb 2021 06:44, edited 1 time in total.

sudarshan
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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby sudarshan » 19 Feb 2021 06:05

An excerpt from Sutherland's book, "India in Bondage":

https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli ... 9_djvu.txt

The claim that the existence of caste is a reason for
saying that the Indian people are unfit to rule themselves
is supported by no facts.

Brahmins, the highest caste, fill all grades of political
office. So do Sudras, the lowest caste. Even “outcasts”
may be active and influential in politics, as in the case



204


INDIA IN BONDAGE


of the mayor of a southern city already mentioned. The
Gaekwar of Baroda, the ruler of the most advanced
Indian state, is a Sudra. So is the Maharajah of Gwal-
ior, an important state. The Maharajah of Mysore is
a Vaisya, the next to the lowest caste.

All these facts show how entirely separate are caste
and political affairs.

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby sudarshan » 19 Feb 2021 06:17

I'm going backwards here, starting from the research, identifying the facts, and then selecting the most telling fact to be the primary response. The rest will be graded by order of effectiveness, and will form the core of the supporting details. It is said that when one puts technical details in books, one should select the juiciest tenth of the details, and keep the rest in abeyance. IOW, one should know ten times more about the subject, than the actual level of detail which is included in the book. A similar principle applies here.

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby Cyrano » 20 Feb 2021 01:07

A funny concept that seems to have fallen by the wayside - thankfully - is "Frugal Innovation" also called "Glorifying Jugaad".

A few years ago I had a student from a prestigious international management institute near Paris call on me seeking to do an internship/project on the theme of "Frugal Innovation" explaining that giving him such a project in my company would be an excellent opportunity to improve India's and my company's image abroad, turns out the fellow's father was an EU official. All expenses paid 3 month internship in India is of course part of the "opportunity" (incl biz class to & fro, food & acco, local field visit support meaning car, driver, assistant plus organising said visits etc etc.).

It was pointless to begin to explain to him what a flawed concept frugal innovation was etc... so I told him real frugal innovation can't afford to waste money on tourists from abroad and has nothing to gain from someone in Europe selling their story as poverty p$rn and asked him to buzz off.

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby sudarshan » 21 Feb 2021 07:09

There have been foreign travelers in India in the past.

Chinese Buddhist travelers - Fa Hian (around 200 AD), Hsuan Tsang (around 600 AD) - Fa Hian wasn't the first, nor was Hsuan Tsang the last Chinese traveler in India, but these are the best known.

Arab Muslim travelers - Al Beruni (around 1000 AD), Ibn Batuta (around 1300 AD).

European Christian travelers - Tavernier, Bernier (both French, both around 1600 AD, in fact, they were co-travelers in India at one point).

All of the above folks regarded Hindus as inferior folks. They all indulged in extensive anti-Brahmin tirades, and subjected Hindus to much contempt and insulting talk. You just have to pick up their books, practically, you can open any of these books at any page, within a few paragraphs or pages at most, you will see some anti-Hindu stuff, especially anti-Brahmin stuff. (However, these books are still a gold-mine, since, with all the negativity on Hindus in general and Brahmins in particular, there is *nothing* in any of these books, which even remotely hints at any kind of caste conflict or "exploitation of lower castes by upper castes").

Now there seems to be this guy Sutherland, traveling in India around the early 1900's. What a refreshing change! The guy seems to have missionary connections, and in places, he argues that Christian missionaries are working to uplift India. He also refers to the AIT - but he uses that to argue that Indians are no inferior to Europeans, because, after all, they share common "Aryan" roots. But otherwise - his books seem to shower fulsome praise on India and Hindus, they break the standard tropes on caste or culture, they put down the British propaganda, and argue that the British have no business in India, that India will be vastly better off without the British, that indeed, the parts of India which were independent of the British in the 1900's (the princely states) were *already* vastly better off than British India. They portray caste honestly - that it was important in India, but was not a medium of exploitation, and that - most importantly - caste was not a bar to political advancement. Commendable candor, and an admirably open-minded perspective.

I think this man's perspective needs to be added to those of the standard "foreign travelers in India." It reinforces the notion of a clean, prosperous, fair India (the original India, not the abomination of British India), and on top of that, is free of the overall judgment and condemnation of Hindus.

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby Rudradev » 21 Feb 2021 09:29

Thank you Sudarshan ji for the pointer to Sutherland. Will look into him more attentively.

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby sudarshan » 21 Feb 2021 09:59

Rudradev wrote:Thank you Sudarshan ji for the pointer to Sutherland. Will look into him more attentively.


^ Sure! I came across his material quite by accident long ago. It was in my confused youth I guess, I confused his name with Jabez G. Sutherland. It seems the man I'm referring to above is "SUNDERLAND," not "SUTHERLAND." But I keep misspelling his name, because of my initial confusion with that Michigan politician "Sutherland." Would you believe, I JUST NOTICED this error :(.

There are other such embarrassing errors I've made in the past, because my scatter-brained childhood wasn't quite compensated by scholarly accomplishment from youth onwards. Silly me - I kept wondering why I couldn't find this person's works by searching online. Of course, if I get the name wrong... :-? . Shri Sunderland even has a wiki page, which I missed entirely all these days. From wiki (emphasis mine):

Jabez Thomas Sunderland (11 February 1842 – 13 August 1936) was a minister of the Unitarian church in the United States and an outspoken activist for human rights and anti-imperialism. He was especially involved in matters of Indian independence and wrote the book India in Bondage (1929, 1932).

He was born in Yorkshire to Thomas and Sarah Broadhead. After the family moved to the United States of America, he was educated at the University of Chicago, receiving an AB in 1867 and a master's in 1869 followed by studies at the Baptist Union Theological seminary receiving a BD (1870). He received a honorary D.D. from Tufts University in 1914. He worked across north America and wrote numerous books. He was involved in movements to improve women's education, the conditions of work, world peace, and was an anti-imperialist who took a lot of interest in India. He was an advocate for self governance by Indians and made a trip to India in 1895-96 partly to meet the leaders of the Brahmo Samaj which had impressed him. He met with Dr Atmaram Pandurang and spoke at the Fergusson College in 1895. He met leaders of the Indian National Congress who were meeting in Poona for the tenth meeting. His book, India in Bondage (1929) was published shortly after Katherine Mayo's Mother India and included an appendix rebutting some of her claims.

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby Cyrano » 21 Feb 2021 16:57

Foreign travellers recounts of India are indeed quite interesting since they offer a comparative perspective of how India was at that time, as seen through alien eyes.

I've loved reading "Veyi Padagalu" in Telugu by Viswanatha Sathyanarayana garu, which describes Andhra society of the 19th and early 20th century, but much older. It was translated into Hindi by late PM Shri PV Narsimha Rao as "Sahastra Phan" I haven't read the Hindi version. The only other book on Indian history I've read is Discovery of India by J Nehru. The DD TV series based in it "Bharat ek Khoj" was a great watch as well.

What are some important Indian sources oh history that are similarly descriptive of their epochs, outside the realm of epics and literature (ex Kalidasa) that are either works focused on history or contemporary social commentaries of their times ?

Thank you for suggestions.

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby sudarshan » 22 Feb 2021 08:05

Cyrano wrote:Foreign travellers recounts of India are indeed quite interesting since they offer a comparative perspective of how India was at that time, as seen through alien eyes.

I've loved reading "Veyi Padagalu" in Telugu by Viswanatha Sathyanarayana garu, which describes Andhra society of the 19th and early 20th century, but much older. It was translated into Hindi by late PM Shri PV Narsimha Rao as "Sahastra Phan" I haven't read the Hindi version. The only other book on Indian history I've read is Discovery of India by J Nehru. The DD TV series based in it "Bharat ek Khoj" was a great watch as well.

What are some important Indian sources oh history that are similarly descriptive of their epochs, outside the realm of epics and literature (ex Kalidasa) that are either works focused on history or contemporary social commentaries of their times ?

Thank you for suggestions.


I hope you don't think of Nehru as some kind of authority on Indian history, you might as well go with Romila Thapar in that case. IIRC his "Discovery of India" (which was probably just his personal discovery journey after a lifetime of deracination) was heavy into Aryan Invasion stuff, and the DD serial reflected that.

There was a thread in which I was trying to get Indian accounts of Hindu-Buddhist interactions, and the material seemed really sparse, at least nobody stepped up to suggest any Indian accounts. Most people think Adi Sankara brought about the demise of Buddhism and the resurgence of Hinduism, but per Hsuan Tsang's accounts, Hinduism was already on the rebound by 600 AD, and Adi Sankara seems to have come in at the tail-end of the process. But like I said, there don't seem to be many surviving Indian accounts of what happened and how it all came about.

If you're looking for history or at least secular material by Indian authors, which gives an idea of the times they lived in, I'm not too familiar with such sources (I suspect there may not be many surviving sources like that, I could be wrong). A lot of material simply didn't make it to our times. Tamil text was written on palm scrolls, and had to be diligently copied onto new scrolls every now and then, since the life-span of those palm scroll records was only like 100 to 200 years. A lot of those scrolls might have simply faded away and then been used to feed the kitchen blaze. Surviving records hint at a much vaster literature trove, but not all of that literature is available today, and what little remains is thanks to the tireless efforts of one Iyer who is fondly known as "Tamizh thatha" (Grandpa of Tamil). You can try the Silappadikaram, it's a good resource of how life was like in the Sangam age. The Tamil writer Kalki wrote some historical fiction, I don't know what his sources were, and how much might have been made up.

This was partly the reason why I got into foreign accounts, since those are well preserved, translated from Chinese or Arabic or French into English (how faithfully - that's a question, but I believe the originals are also available if somebody has the inclination and ability to do a comparison). You can probably dive into Bernier or Tavernier - the original works - if you're familiar with French, though I don't know how archaic that French might be, dating from 1650 AD or so. I had to make do with translations.

Hope that helps some, others here might have more suggestions.

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby arshyam » 22 Feb 2021 08:24

Dharampal's series is very revealing about life in 18th and 19th century India. Swarajya has published a timely article summarizing Dharampal's works:

On Dharampal’s Birth Anniversary: Short Descriptions Of The Gandhian Scholar’s Most Important Works - by Ashwini B Desai and Harshith Joseph

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby Rudradev » 22 Feb 2021 09:10

Cyrano,

R C Majumdar is essential reading on Indian history. A scholar of enormous renown who was systematically excluded by the post-Indira Gandhi academic establishment when it turned out his commitment to the truth far exceeded his willingness to toe their ideological line.

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dl ... 1/mode/2up

For histories of Southern India specifically, Neelakanta Sastri is excellent.

https://archive.org/details/K.A.Nilakan ... outh-India

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby sudarshan » 22 Feb 2021 09:22

Maybe I misunderstood, I thought Cyrano was asking for material from Indians writing about their own times. Like contemporary literature, which gives a glimpse of living conditions and culture of the era. Not like history writers who were delving into the past? The foreign travelers for instance, they weren't writing about the India of their past, but their own fresh impressions from the very times they were living in.

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby Cyrano » 22 Feb 2021 16:54

Right Sudarshan ji, that was my point.

Agree about AIT dump by Nehru in Discovery of India. I had read it many years ago, have it somewhere still.

Thanks Rudradev, will read Majumdar and N Sastri's works.

Another history area I'd like to read about is how Indian culture spread through South East Asia from Tamil, Kalinga and other Indian influences.

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby Tanaji » 22 Feb 2021 17:17

Fyi Majumdar work is The history and Culture of Indian people. If I remember correctly it spans 6 volumes.

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby RaviB » 22 Feb 2021 20:04

Cyrano wrote:Another history area I'd like to read about is how Indian culture spread through South East Asia from Tamil, Kalinga and other Indian influences.


For this there is a book by RC Majumdar The History of Kambujadesa
There is a PDF available here https://de1lib.org/book/3246021/5f287c?

The PDF has a lot of empty pages at the beginning but if you persevere, you will come to the text.

You should also look at books published by Motilal Banarsi Das, they have several gems in their collection and some out of print books can still be bought online.

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby chanakyaa » 22 Feb 2021 21:00

sudarshan wrote:...All of the above folks regarded Hindus as inferior folks. They all indulged in extensive anti-Brahmin tirades, and subjected Hindus to much contempt and insulting talk. You just have to pick up their books, practically, you can open any of these books at any page, within a few paragraphs or pages at most, you will see some anti-Hindu stuff, especially anti-Brahmin stuff. (However, these books are still a gold-mine, since, with all the negativity on Hindus in general and Brahmins in particular, there is *nothing* in any of these books, which even remotely hints at any kind of caste conflict or "exploitation of lower castes by upper castes")....

Agree. Taking all the anti-brahmin garbage out, these books can be collectively used to create a mosaic of ancient India.

To the list of books by Nilakanta Sastri, I would also add "Foreign Notices of South India (From Megasthenes to Ma Huan)". I've not read other book by Sastri-ji, so I hope this is not repetitive to some names listed above. The book is on Archive.

Any good recommendations on Greek accounts on India, other than the usual references? like,
  1. The writings of Origen
  2. Origen against Celsus
  3. Indian Travels of Apollonius of Tyana And The Indian Embassies to Rome
It seems like over-reliance on Greek/Roman accounts of India from English perspective. At one point, I seriously considered learning some introductory Greek and read Greek accounts directly from the source instead of English translations. Trying to understand if it has already been done.

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby Primus » 23 Feb 2021 03:29

chanakyaa wrote:
sudarshan wrote:...All of the above folks regarded Hindus as inferior folks. They all indulged in extensive anti-Brahmin tirades, and subjected Hindus to much contempt and insulting talk. You just have to pick up their books, practically, you can open any of these books at any page, within a few paragraphs or pages at most, you will see some anti-Hindu stuff, especially anti-Brahmin stuff. (However, these books are still a gold-mine, since, with all the negativity on Hindus in general and Brahmins in particular, there is *nothing* in any of these books, which even remotely hints at any kind of caste conflict or "exploitation of lower castes by upper castes")....

Agree. Taking all the anti-brahmin garbage out, these books can be collectively used to create a mosaic of ancient India.

To the list of books by Nilakanta Sastri, I would also add "Foreign Notices of South India (From Megasthenes to Ma Huan)". I've not read other book by Sastri-ji, so I hope this is not repetitive to some names listed above. The book is on Archive.

Any good recommendations on Greek accounts on India, other than the usual references? like,
  1. The writings of Origen
  2. Origen against Celsus
  3. Indian Travels of Apollonius of Tyana And The Indian Embassies to Rome
It seems like over-reliance on Greek/Roman accounts of India from English perspective. At one point, I seriously considered learning some introductory Greek and read Greek accounts directly from the source instead of English translations. Trying to understand if it has already been done.


I had done some reading on the topic of Alexander a few years ago and we had a discussion here on BRF itself. That was on the old 'GDF'.

What I found was that there was NO single account of Alexander written by any contemporary historian. Everything that we know about his travels, esp to India were written several centuries later. The contemporaneous account written by his general Ptolemy was lost and although later there were claims of it being found again it is unclear if this was really true. Arrian's Anabasis is said to be the most accurate account of Alexander's travels and conquests, it is claimed that this was based on Ptolemy's work which somehow resurfaced (how, after four hundred years is never explained). I compared key passages from Arrian's description with that from Diodorus regarding India and there were a lot of discrepancies. What seems evident from these old records is that they were more tales of adventure and intrigue, with larger than life characters, a bit like Homer's Odyssey. I guess that was the style those days, even historians couldn't help but embellish the tales of their heroes.

Another very interesting theory regarding his death came up via a pharmacological paper from Pfizer in 2010 where they suggest he died from a toxic reaction to a bacteria of the Micromonosporium type which produces a highly fatal toxin and supposedly grows in the limestone rocks of the Styx waterfall. So the historical anecdotes of him dying from the 'poisoned water' of the Styx may be true.

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby KLNMurthy » 23 Feb 2021 04:54

Cyrano wrote:Foreign travellers recounts of India are indeed quite interesting since they offer a comparative perspective of how India was at that time, as seen through alien eyes.

I've loved reading "Veyi Padagalu" in Telugu by Viswanatha Sathyanarayana garu, which describes Andhra society of the 19th and early 20th century, but much older. It was translated into Hindi by late PM Shri PV Narsimha Rao as "Sahastra Phan" I haven't read the Hindi version. The only other book on Indian history I've read is Discovery of India by J Nehru. The DD TV series based in it "Bharat ek Khoj" was a great watch as well.

What are some important Indian sources oh history that are similarly descriptive of their epochs, outside the realm of epics and literature (ex Kalidasa) that are either works focused on history or contemporary social commentaries of their times ?

Thank you for suggestions.


If you are a Telugu or Sanskrit reader check out Princess Ganga Devi's Madhura Vijayam which is a first-hand chronicle of the campaign & victory of Kumara Kampana against the Sultan of Madurai in the very early days of the Vijayanagar Empire (late 1300s or early 1400s). I believe Kampana was the son of Bukka Raya, the younger of the Harihara-Bukka brothers who did ghar wapasi after forced conversion and went on to found the Vijayanagar Empire in 1336.

Ganga Devi's original work was in Sanskrit. The Telugu version used to be available with Visalandhra Book Store in Hyderabad. I read the Telugu version in my school days, but unfortunately don't have a copy currently in my possession. I have a scan of the Sanskrit version sitting on some disk somewhere. Unfortunately I don't have more than rudimentary Sanskrit. I believe there is a Kannada version out there somewhere also.

It is a wonderful stirring narrative by our very own first-ever female embedded war correspondent. (As an aside, true "wokeness" would celebrate Princess Ganga instead of relegating her to obscurity).

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby Vayutuvan » 23 Feb 2021 05:23

Primus wrote:... of the Styx waterfall. So the historical anecdotes of him dying from the 'poisoned water' of the Styx may be true.


(just an aside, otherwise please continue with the recommendations on the books)

Wow. You learn something new every day at BRF. All these days I was thinking that Styx is a river in Greek mythology from whose name the phrase "stygian depths" is derived.

The river Mavroneri is identified with the river Styx.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mavroneri

which has the link to the news report to the paper Primus ji is talking about.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/7924855/Alexander-the-Great-poisoned-by-the-River-x.html

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby Primus » 23 Feb 2021 06:10

Rudradev wrote:Cyrano,

R C Majumdar is essential reading on Indian history. A scholar of enormous renown who was systematically excluded by the post-Indira Gandhi academic establishment when it turned out his commitment to the truth far exceeded his willingness to toe their ideological line.

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dl ... 1/mode/2up

For histories of Southern India specifically, Neelakanta Sastri is excellent.

https://archive.org/details/K.A.Nilakan ... outh-India



RC Majumdar, Jadunath Sarkar and Parmatma Saran were old school historians, not willing to give in to political pressure. I have met P. Saran since he was a family friend. His work was plagiarized by Irfan Habib IIRC.

A lot of their work is available online in pdf format.

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby Cyrano » 23 Feb 2021 17:23

Thank you for the pointers & links !

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby sudarshan » 24 Feb 2021 20:16

Reading more of Shri Sunderland. It is a shocking read. If your blood is too cold, the below will have the effect of bringing it to a gentle boil (assuming your blood is made of lead that is). Be warned, this is utterly shocking material.

This was the situation in the early 1900's. All emphasis/ coloring is mine. Be especially careful reading the red-colored parts, do not read when eating or drinking.

Says Mr. Herbert Anderson, Sec-
retary of the Calcutta Temperance Federation: “It is
one of the commonest sights of Calcutta to see a crowd
of persons standing before the barred window through
which drug sales are made, often blocking the pathway,
and pressing upon one another to secure their daily quota
of poison. ” Again he says: “The majority of the retail
opium shops are so situated as to afford the most direct
temptation to all classes of the community. . . . The
Government shelters itself under the delusion of doing
a ‘legitimate trade,’ but by its policy it has fastened the
shackles of a habit, condemned by Hindu and Moslem
authorities alike, upon the community at large, and the
chain gets stronger and stronger each year.”


Says Gertrude Marvin Williams in a letter to the New
York Nation written from Calcutta, India, under date
of July 2, 1925 : “Two thousand three hundred men and
women were recently counted entering a single one of
Calcutta’s many Government-licensed opium shops in a
single day. ... I visited a shop a block from Chow-
ringhee, Calcutta’s Fifth Avenue. Squatting on a coun-
ter, behind a small, iron-barred window, sat a man roll-
ing cubes of sticky brown opium in a green leaf, and
wrapping them with a deft turn of his wrist, in a bit of
newspaper. Beside him sat a man taking a steady stream
of one-anna pieces (two cents) to exchange for the bits
of opium. The line of men waiting to push into the
shop were of all sorts. Two cents buys six and three-
quarter grains of opium. A friendly man of about fifty
told me that when he began using it four years ago two
cents’ worth lasted three days, two doses each day. Now
he takes that amount in one day. He asked me if I was
going to buy, and solemnly warned me that four cents’
worth would kill a beginner. Old addicts, however, take
as much as thirty-five cents worth at a time.
Defenders
of the licensing system make a great point of the fact

1 “Excise Administration in Bengal,” 1921, pp. 9 and 16.



INDIA’S OPIUM CURSE


157


that the shop is permitted to sell only a limited amount
to any customer. On inquiry I found that the limit is
one tola , 188 grains, but the customer may buy this
every day . Also there is nothing to prevent him making
the rounds of the shops or returning to the same shop
jive minutes later . This is ‘government regulation’ of
the opium traffic. . . . One of the most serious
phases of India’s opium problem is the drugging of
babies. The women who work in the mills of Calcutta
and Bombay give their babies opium in the morning so
that they will sleep all day and not interrupt their
mothers at work by crying to be nursed. The women in
the villages who work in the fields dope their babies
before they go out, so that they may not waken and cry
in their mothers’ absence. A physician in the Central
Provinces estimates that 90 per cent, of the babies in
his district are doped.
There are estimated to be over
50,000,000 people in India who never are able to satisfy
their hunger. Poor women of this class who have not
enough milk to nurse their babies give them opium to stop
their crying from hunger. Dr. Mistri, a woman doctor
holding a Government appointment in the West of India,
estimates that 90 per cent, of the Hindu children and 75
per cent, of the Mohammedan children are continuously
drugged from birth until they are two years old.”


Bishop Fisher of Calcutta declared in a public address
delivered in New York, May 14, 1924, that of every
100 babies born in some sections of India only 28 live to
be two years old, — the causes of this appalling death
rate being the poverty of the people, poor sanitation,
but mainly opium fed to these babes from their birth.


Says Rev. C. F. Andrews: “In India a man or woman
may go into a shop and freely purchase enough opium to
commit suicide. I took up a Bombay paper this morning
and saw as a common piece of news the account of a
woman who had just committed suicide by opium poison-
ing, and side by side with it was the report of the death



IS8 INDIA IN BONDAGE

of a baby from an over-dose of opium. The number of
such deaths which are never even reported is large.

Only a few weeks ago, the wife of the British Governor
of Bombay, Lady Wilson, called attention to the shock-
ing fact that in a recent year the annual infant mortality
in Bombay had reached 666 per thousand. She also
stated that she had been told by her own physician that
98 per cent, of the mothers who work in the Bombay
factories dose their children with opium regularly before
going to their work.
From my own experience I can
confirm this statement of the wife of the Governor. I
myself have seen little babies, with their shrunk, old,
wizened faces, lying drugged with opium on the floors
of the wretched hovels of Bombay.”

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby sudarshan » 24 Feb 2021 20:47

I knew the above used to happen in the mid to late 1800's in India, during the time of Britain's opium wars with China. I had no idea it was happening as late as the 1920's and 1930's. Please correlate this with the reports of Hindu women drowning their babies in the Ganga, as soon as the babies were born, out of "misguided heathen religious beliefs." If you were a new mother who knew that the only way you could keep your baby alive was by doing the above, and if there was a holy river nearby, what would your rational mind dictate? Tha-at's right.

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby Manish_Sharma » 24 Feb 2021 21:09

This is the most important scientific breakthrough that should be celebrated. On the other hand Raman Research Institute ( Bengaluru ) should become target # 1 for official Chinese hackers.
Bengaluru scientists make quantum technology breakthrough. The project aims to encrypt a message which CANNOT be deciphered by a third party, be it a hacker or a foreign power, without the use of a decryption key, which ITSELF is shared SECRETLY in the MESSAGE stream.
Note : UPLINK transfer no country has achieved. To date, no country has successfully carried out a successful so-called quantum key distribution from the earth to a satellite in orbit.
Note : DOWNLINK, the easier one, has been achieved. In 2017, China managed to carry out a “downlink” transfer, meaning that a key was transferred down from a satellite to a ground station.
IMPORTANT : During a demonstration on Sunday, the research team at Raman Research Institute showed the technology in which they could share this secret key across a 50-metre free space from one building to another, using only the atmosphere.
Dr Sinha pointed out that the challenge of downlink transfers is easier to surmount when compared to “uplink” transfers because a key being transferred down through the atmosphere via a photon stream faces significantly few atmospheric distortions. “Because the atmosphere is thinner at high altitudes, the chance of success is more. However, all countries want to carry out successful uplink transfers, which we and ISRO are working to achieve,” she said.

https://www.deccanherald.com/science-an ... LfjxqfIKTU

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby Manish_P » 24 Feb 2021 21:27

^ Great achievement. Request you to please post this in the MIL thread as well

Perhaps the Disruptive Tech thread would be most appropriate?

https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6476

or the Cyber Warfare thread..

https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5619&start=360

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby sanjaykumar » 24 Feb 2021 23:36

So atmosphere conditions are asymmetric up and down in that photons seemingly avoid dense atmosphere going to earth’s surface.

File under garbage.

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby Manish_Sharma » 24 Feb 2021 23:39

Manish_P wrote:^ Great achievement. Request you to please post this in the MIL thread as well

Perhaps the Disruptive Tech thread would be most appropriate?

https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6476

or the Cyber Warfare thread..

https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5619&start=360


I have posted to both the links you put here,

But don't know what 'MIL THREAD ' is?

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby Manish_P » 25 Feb 2021 00:37

Oops sorry :oops: .. I meant the Military forum.

Those two threads are under it. Thanks

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby YashG » 28 Feb 2021 14:35

Rakesh wrote:WOW! 83 Mk1As are causing a lot of takleef.

How Did India Manage to Build an Advanced Fighter Jet Like the Tejas?
https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/24/in ... rty-china/
24 Feb 2021



The central theme of the article is India could do it because of defense cooperation. That premise seems right and wise. In his pathbreaking mega epic - 'Guns, Germs & Steel', Jared Diamond argues that east-west axis of knowledge allowed eurasian civilizations to stay ahead in military tech. Knowledge transfer axis are far more powerful over time than we realise - same might be happening for India. Babones often writes insightfully.

Historically we were always powerful economically but our miltech always lagged. When first wave of islamic invaders came to India they had better warfare tech than natives. In the next wave very same rulers, the Lodis got dislodged by a new eurasian invade babur. Because he had better artillery! Next the very same mughals got defeated by a new eurasian invader - Nader Shah. Why? Cz he had better artillery. Then finally the natives lost to British again. Why? Again artillery tech. East-West axis always kept eurasian miltech state of art.

Finally!!! Indian miltech is now state of art cz now the internet axis does what the geographical axis did back then. So I could safely say our miltech has for first time in many millenniums, broken free of the limitations of east-west axis and we're now state of art.
Last edited by YashG on 28 Feb 2021 21:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby Uttam » 28 Feb 2021 17:36

YashG wrote:In his pathbreaking mega epic - 'Guns, Germs & Steel', Jared Kushner


I suppose you meant Jared Diamond!

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby CalvinH » 01 Mar 2021 08:32

YashG wrote:
Historically we were always powerful economically but our miltech always lagged. When first wave of islamic invaders came to India they had better warfare tech than natives. In the next wave very same rulers, the Lodis got dislodged by a new eurasian invade babur. Because he had better artillery! Next the very same mughals got defeated by a new eurasian invader - Nader Shah. Why? Cz he had better artillery. Then finally the natives lost to British again. Why? Again artillery tech. East-West axis always kept eurasian miltech state of art.

Finally!!! Indian miltech is now state of art cz now the internet axis does what the geographical axis did back then. So I could safely say our miltech has for first time in many millenniums, broken free of the limitations of east-west axis and we're now state of art.


Not for this thread but it wasn't the knowledge transfer but need for knowledge development. Development of war tech and war techniques came from frequent large scale internal wars and external conquests. European scientific revolution was taken forward by returns from the conquests and colonization that it enabled. Western military, science and industry followed each other in perfect sync feeding each other.

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby Aditya_V » 01 Mar 2021 11:04

Main reasons Europe military tech advanced was fighting 1) Wars with expanist Islamic conquests on a contuous basis establishing need 2) Then exporting populations and eliminating native people accross the globe where thier numbers were weak, Indians responded to artificial famines by having large families 3) constant competition to improve tech.

See WW 2, it was about resources. We Indian concentrated on cunningness trading and bargaining.

In the last few hundred years Islamists have been hand in glove, let's eliminate everyone else then we can sort it out. Large parts of the world is being made bipolar in religion.

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby mody » 01 Mar 2021 17:12

India was the metallurgical super power till the medieval times. More than the technology it was the war fighting tech that was lacking in India.
Most Indian kings did not maintain a regular professional standing army. The invaders that came in had professional armies, whose general profession was fighting. They were not farmers or traders or blacksmiths who also took up arms as and when needed. Lodhi lost to Babur even though Babur's army was much smaller, mainly because of superior tactics and much better trained soldiers. More than 80% on Lodhi's army never saw any combat in the battle.
Same was the case with Nadir Shah. In fact the Mughal's had assembled an army larger than any in their history. Yet, most units were fighting with each other for the first time and a majority of the soldiers were conscripts who had assembled for the army for the first time.

Constant war fighting and fighting as a profession or as a means of enforcing the foreign policy or to gain preferential trade terms is what set the foreign armies apart from Indian ones. If we read about the battle of Dharmat etc. we find that the Rajput armies did not learn the battle tactics what they had witnessed in other Mughal units or from the Persians in Kandahar or during the Mughal campaign to Samarkand and central asia.

However, this is OT for this thread.

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby Aditya_V » 01 Mar 2021 17:29

mody wrote:India was the metallurgical super power till the medieval times. More than the technology it was the war fighting tech that was lacking in India.
Most Indian kings did not maintain a regular professional standing army. The invaders that came in had professional armies, whose general profession was fighting. They were not farmers or traders or blacksmiths who also took up arms as and when needed. Lodhi lost to Babur even though Babur's army was much smaller, mainly because of superior tactics and much better trained soldiers. More than 80% on Lodhi's army never saw any combat in the battle.
Same was the case with Nadir Shah. In fact the Mughal's had assembled an army larger than any in their history. Yet, most units were fighting with each other for the first time and a majority of the soldiers were conscripts who had assembled for the army for the first time.

Constant war fighting and fighting as a profession or as a means of enforcing the foreign policy or to gain preferential trade terms is what set the foreign armies apart from Indian ones. If we read about the battle of Dharmat etc. we find that the Rajput armies did not learn the battle tactics what they had witnessed in other Mughal units or from the Persians in Kandahar or during the Mughal campaign to Samarkand and central asia.

However, this is OT for this thread.


You left one thing, Indian kings had to take care of economics, while the invaders were only bothered about raiding and war booty which happened right up till Nadir shah. Even today Pakis want us to do the same, that's why defunding the miltary like Rahul Gandhi suggested in front of Tamil Nadu weavers recently is very very dangerous idea.

Many Indians think they are over smart and think they can make intelligent deals with the outsider, at the end of the day they always got betrayed.

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby Cybaru » 01 Mar 2021 19:28

Could you all take the non Tejas discussion to strat forum?

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby sudarshan » 02 Mar 2021 08:00

What happened here? Did some mod move a lot of posts from another thread?

Aditya_V wrote:You left one thing, Indian kings had to take care of economics, while the invaders were only bothered about raiding and war booty which happened right up till Nadir shah. Even today Pakis want us to do the same, that's why defunding the miltary like Rahul Gandhi suggested in front of Tamil Nadu weavers recently is very very dangerous idea.

Many Indians think they are over smart and think they can make intelligent deals with the outsider, at the end of the day they always got betrayed.


Like I said above, foreign travelers from all parts of the world have been fascinated by India's caste system. They wrote extensively about it. Most of it in negative terms. With all that, there was nothing in any of their writings, which points to any kind of caste discrimination in India of the pre-European-conquest times. In fact, there is not even anything in their works, which refer to any caste as any higher than the other (except a little bit in Bernier - but even that is very interesting, because the dynamics that Bernier wrote about were so contrary to modern European perceptions, that the translator felt compelled to add a disclaimer (in the footnotes) saying - basically - "Bernier has no clue what he's talking about, this was not how caste worked in India, ask me, I know all about it"). So basically Bernier, the guy who was there at the time in the 1600's to 1650's, got it all wrong, and this English translator sitting at his desk in the 1800's knows better and feels compelled to correct Bernier on what India was like 200 years prior! Why, because what Bernier was saying was against the "caste discrimination" picture portrayed by the British to the rest of the world. I much suspect that it was the translator who added the bit about "upper and lower castes" even in this little snippet by Bernier.

However, leave all that. All these foreign travelers do mention that Brahmins are the "first caste," Kshatriyas the "second," and so on. No "upper or lower," just a gradation from "first to fourth." Same thing? I don't believe so.

Sudras are the fourth caste. Sudras are the menial workers, in a sense they are the primary consumers. Brahmins have extremely restricted consumption patterns (by decree), Kshatriyas are occupied with defense, Vaishyas with the economy. Sudras do their work, and then they enjoy drink and other pleasures, which Brahmins, especially, are mostly forbidden from doing. Any foreign maal imported into India - the lower strata would enjoy it most.

Sudra priorities are - cheap goods, pleasures, foreign maal, etc. Vaisya priorities are with the economy. Vaisya interests take precedence. Why? Because nurturing the domestic industry and economy should take priority over giving your wealth to value-added products from abroad. That's what the USA keeps cribbing about after all - the Chinese took away our manufacturing and supplied us with cheap goods, and that is NOT a good thing! Building the domestic economy should be a higher priority. Which is why Vaisyas are the third caste, and Sudras the fourth, simple economics, one takes priority over the other.

Kshatriyas are the second caste. National security interests should take precedence over the economy. This is what India forgot. Prioritizing trade ties over security leads to disaster. This is what the Huawei saga is all about, after all.

Why are Brahmins the first caste? Because of the Indian belief that one's spiritual identity takes precedence over everything else. Europe lost her spiritual identity to an Asian religion. As a result, so did the Americas and Australia. Africa is getting there. India protected her spiritual identity over the millennia, no denying that.

It's a simple prioritizing of interests.
Last edited by sudarshan on 02 Mar 2021 08:02, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby sudarshan » 02 Mar 2021 08:01

Gaah! Just trying to get the original thread title back.

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby sudarshan » 05 Mar 2021 09:14

X-post from politics thread.

nam wrote:https://twitter.com/Abhina_Prakash/status/1367479872747016192

There has been a concerted attempt to delegitimise India’s anti-imperialist struggle and Indian nationalism.


This is a very very important point. The core of modern India as nation, that got it's independence in 47 was Nationalism. A nation which threw out it's colonial masters will always be built on nationalism.

The lot who claim there is a increase in nationalism in India, would do the same if India was still a colony!

Mahatma Gandhi would have been today a symbol of "toxic Indian nationalism"!


Learn something new everyday. This is the extent of brainwashing that we've been through, that we forget basic facts. The Indian Independence movement has been referred to as a "nationalist" movement since 1900 at least.

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Re: Indian Interests_2

Postby sudarshan » 06 Mar 2021 22:52

Responding to something from the politics thread.

@Suraj, you might be reading my comments wrong.

The first thing to do when writing (fiction or non-fiction) is to identify your audience. Don't try to please everybody, because you can't. The piece you wrote is the way it needs to be (given what I think is your audience) - factual, with references, as opposed to opinion. It will hit the right notes with those who value that. You mentioned the number of RTs and the folks who were doing those RTs. It seems you were trying to reach that audience anyway, so that's good.

You are also going to receive reactions about how it is "too factual." Or other negative reactions in general. Most of those reactions won't show up in the comments section of that article, because those folks won't bother commenting. Some of those who react that way will still read as much as they can digest, and try to get educated. Most will not. And that is also fine, because that is not the audience you're trying to reach. Like it or not, a factual piece like that will turn off the majority of the general audience. But that is probably not the kind of person who comes to Swarajya anyway.

That's why I was asking about your audience, because any evaluation of what effect the piece has had, has to first answer the question "who was I trying to please?" and not bother about the rest. It is the same in fiction writing. If you please your intended audience, you've done a good job. If not, you have some work to do to improve your writing. If you receive negative comments, first ask yourself "was I trying to please that guy to begin with?" If not, forget about those comments. If you receive positive comments from somebody who wasn't your intended audience, that's a bonus.

So to see whether your piece had the desired effect, focus on the reaction of your target audience (seems like you're doing that already).


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